1108 - Murray & Ash Smith: "This Is Why You Feel Lonely (Even Around People)"

Hey, what's up, everybody? It's Cynthia here. Welcome to The Man Within Podcast. I have some very special guests with me today.

I really enjoy this in-person thing. I have Murray and Ash Smith from Catch the Fire Toronto.

If you guys have been following me for a bit, you know that Catch the Fire is the church that really changed my life back in 2013.

It's the reason I have this platform today if I wouldn't have gone through their school, learn their core values.

I wouldn't be free of pornography. I wouldn't really be the person that I am today.

But I also had the privilege to work there for several years, and that's where I got to know these incredible people.

I brought them on today to talk about community because they are some of the best at gathering people, making people feel welcome,

really fostering that sense, both on a micro scale, within small groups, that sort of thing,

but also these guys have global impact and global positions within the Catch the Fire movement.

And so, there's a lot to learn from them, and it's no secret. Right, we're more lonely, we're more anxious, more isolated than ever before today.

And so, that's why I brought them on. We're going to have an amazing chat, and I'm glad you guys are here.

So I'm very nice. Welcome to The Podcast. It's good to be with you.

It's so good to be with you, and you make us sound much better.

Yeah. I was going to enjoy that.

Who are these people? They sound amazing. Wow.

No, but you guys are amazing. I was driving in today and I was remembering when we were on that cruise.

I think it was actually like seven years ago now. We were on that cruise, and just chatting with you, Shalom,

and I had so much fun. We felt so welcome and just so honored to be around you guys.

Yeah.

And now you're in Toronto, because you weren't in Toronto at the time.

No, we were living in Toronto. That was the cruise that brought COVID, wasn't it?

I think so quite. I think we were just before like a week ago.

It was, yeah, seriously. But you guys are in Toronto now.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so lots of our friends that are still in Toronto rave about you guys, and they talk about how great of a job you guys are doing leading,

but especially I think making people feel welcome.

So I'm excited to jump into all things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wonderful.

Give some backstory, because you guys have a backstory that even ties into my stomping grounds in Catherine's, where Shalom and I live.

But just give a bit of background about how you guys came together, how you became pastors, and how you became leaders of Toronto.

Sure.

You start.

Sure. I'll start.

Okay.

So I grew up in a totally non-Christian, non-church background.

And then I trained as a teacher, physical education and health teacher, when I was at university.

In Australia?

In Australia.

Yes, that's funny accent.

I say to everyone, I'm from the deep, deep South.

Okay.

The deepest South, yeah.

Especially when we lived in America in the South, when I'm from the really deep South.

The actual deep South, yeah.

And so for my last teaching practicum, I had to go at my college, encouraged us to go out of where we lived.

And I chose, initially chose a school on the west coast of Canada because I like skiing and sailing.

Oh.

And so I was initially going to go there, but unbeknownst to me, God had a different plan.

And I, the school that I was supposed to go to couldn't take me, so I ended up going to a school in St. Catherine's.

And I was supposed to be there for 10 weeks, stayed for two years.

Wow.

And in my two-year journey there, I met a family who were, they really loved the Lord.

And they were very open with their family and their faith.

And invite, one of the, the husband was a teacher at the school.

So he invited, they used to invite me over, I used to babysit their kids.

And I just, I always say I fell in love with Jesus through that family unit.

So it was amazing.

I don't think I realized quite what a gift they were until after I'd left.

Right.

And in the second year that I was there, and it was just a young Englishman.

Just before I actually had to, yes, to following Jesus, this dashing young Englishman game.

Young being the operative word, yeah.

Yeah, to do a gap year.

So I did a gap year between high school, I just finished high school, went to a teacher in this,

well, I say teach, it was more like coaching sport and building theatre sets,

you know, whatever they wanted me to do.

Yeah.

And there was there for nine months in St. Catherine's as well.

That's where we got together and started dating.

So really, really was that known?

The, I guess, internationally, because you came from the UK, you used to come Australia?

I think, yes, if you were in the public, in the private school system,

even the public schools, which is weird, but if you're in the private school system,

then it would be relatively well known.

I suppose it would have been on a list of international schools.

Yeah.

Even at Ridley College, where we were at, they had international students.

Lots of international students.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, I was there for a year.

And I was a missionary kid, brought up in Nigeria, West Africa, going to a boarding school

for most of my life.

And I had to sort of walk away from the Lord and then through meeting Ash and this family.

And then, you know, Ash coming to know the Lord, I sort of came back as well.

Wow.

And then we finished, went to England.

I was going to university, so I went to university there, Ash followed me.

And then we got married in my performance final year of university.

Okay.

And then when I graduated, we were three months pregnant.

I really, I wanted to be a pastor at that school.

You felt that calling?

Yeah, cool.

Oh, wow.

But my pastor at the time, very wisely said, listen, you're about to have a baby.

He didn't say this, but I, subtext now, I can think about it.

You're pretty immature.

And you need some life skills.

Yeah.

So go and get a job.

Okay.

And so I got a job in England.

You never provide for your family.

Learn how to provide for my family.

And then we were part of the church community for probably eight to ten years.

And that church.

Where is this?

This is in Newcastle and England.

In England, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we were, I was, I trained as an accountant, you know, just worked.

We were always involved in church, always involved in community.

The church that we started going to when we were married, they were a relatively small church,

but very strong on a sense of family and community together.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

You know, we had lots of, you know, only half kids, you know, you don't know what you're doing.

And so you go to find people that, in your community to say, hey, I'm struggling with this.

How to do this.

I need some help.

Hey, could you look after my kids?

I need a break.

You know, whatever it is.

Yeah.

And then I was a young follower of Jesus and having not grown up in that background.

You know, that foundation.

I was, I was like, I'm hungry to learn.

So there were, I would connect with women that I look at how they did family.

And I'd be like, okay, I want to come over and spend time with you when I was pregnant.

I want to spend time with you and see and learn.

That's, yeah, really smart.

Yeah.

I'm as part of the power of community is being able to see people that you can patent yourself after, after, right?

Yeah.

Being able to see people that there's something about you that I really appreciate.

I can learn from you and it therefore makes us better.

So I just want to ask about that family that kind of like discipled you guys really on.

I got you back to Jesus and helped you meet Jesus.

Yeah.

What was it about them?

What were they doing that was so impactful for you guys?

Kindness.

Yes.

And they were very open.

Yeah.

So I, very open with their family.

Yeah.

Like, open like, honest about their struggles or just invited you in and just invite me in.

Okay.

So I'd go over and have meals with them.

Okay.

And just part of that, I come from a family with quite a lot of brokenness, divorce and lots of other things.

And so for me, I, and I'd made, I'd grow it because growing up in some of that, you know, those challenges,

I'd, you know, believed certain things about myself or about men or about others and that formed me with some pain, right?

And so I had had some really poor relationships with guys before I got saved.

And so it was very wary of all sorts of things.

And so this family were a safe space for me to, I felt like I could be myself.

Yeah.

And, and, and they were, they were natural about their faith.

So they weren't religious or forcing things.

Yeah.

It's just, they, I learnt to pray with their kids and bedtime.

And I prayed some really dodgy prayers.

I'm sure.

I pray to the two fairies who love the room.

They're like, okay, let's try that again.

But they were just very welcoming and inclusive.

So I got invited to family things.

And, wow.

They trusted me to babysit their kids.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, so.

And when you babysit, they were just bibles left.

I don't know if they did this.

I don't know if they did this on purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

But I did find bibles.

And I would look after their house.

Sometimes I started reading the Bible.

And, and then they invited me to come into their church community.

Sure.

And didn't force me just let me go at my own pace.

And, and even that church community welcomed me in.

I, I remember being invited to participate in some Easter thing

that was happening one year.

Okay.

And I wasn't even properly saved at that point.

Yeah.

But they just made some space for me to be a part of it.

Yeah.

That's so cool.

Yeah.

Do you remember what church it was?

Yeah.

Hmm.

They met in a school hall.

Okay.

You used to be part of a Menonite church.

Oh, a Southridge.

Came out.

Was it Southridge?

Hmm.

I don't remember the name of it.

Was it something?

Did that Barry Adams do?

Yeah.

What was Southridge called before they became Southridge?

I'm almost positive.

I know what you're talking about.

They were in the Menonite brethren.

And then they moved out of that.

Yeah.

And they outgrew that.

And then they eventually bought a building.

Yeah.

So they were in a school hall or something like that.

Yeah.

So Barry Adams, if you know.

Yeah.

All the way through the father's love letter.

He was that they were there.

Okay.

So that is a different church actually.

But yeah.

I know what you're talking about.

I'm good friends of our family that we're talking about.

So we didn't know Barry.

Yeah.

But we found that later on.

Years later that they were connected.

They had a connection.

That's crazy.

And that was really cool.

So yeah.

So they were just really natural in their family.

Hmm.

I received.

I know now looking back.

I received healing.

Looking at how the mom and dad related to one another.

Hmm.

I received healing.

And looking at how they.

Looking at how they related to their kids.

Hmm.

And then also scooped me in.

Yeah.

And then I remember when I was.

When it was coming time for me to leave.

I went out with the wife Rowan.

And we went out for lunch.

And.

And I remember at this book.

So I hadn't like prayed the prayer of salvation.

Okay.

But I was definitely.

I want to be in with Jesus.

I didn't know exactly what that meant.

She gave me the book mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

Yeah.

Which I think can be quite heady.

Yeah.

But I really loved it.

Wow.

And then I remember saying to her Rowan,

you know when you're filling out forms.

And you have to put your religion on there.

I used to not really do much.

Or I just would put something.

But now I want to say,

I'm a Christian.

I'm so funny.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

But that was like the marketing life.

Yeah.

And it wasn't until then when I went to the UK that I actually,

I approached one of the leaders in the church and I said,

look, I've said yes.

But I don't really fully know what I've said yes to.

Can you help me understand that?

Yes.

And so she took me through a study of, you know,

and I invited some new friends to come with me.

Nice.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it's always been for me the community that I've received so much

healing from the past trauma in community because I needed that.

Yes.

And then you kind of had that then at this church in Newcastle as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we had some really good older friends of our past as Matthew and Anne,

especially and Ian and Heather and Andy and Teresa,

the three couples.

They, at various times, really took us under their wing and,

you know, just helped us.

Like, you know, for instance,

Ash wanted to have babies sooner and I wasn't ready.

Okay.

And so we were able to go and talk that through with Matthew and Anne one morning

and then they prayed for me and the Holy Spirit hit me.

And I'm like, okay, this is it.

We're having babies.

Oh, well.

It was just, you know, then they, they would walk, they were walking.

And there was much, many more than just those three couples,

but walking us through how to do life.

Well, as a married couple, how to do life well as parents.

Yeah.

Just really impactful.

Yeah.

And they were, I think they became kind of like substitute family.

Yes.

Not that you want to get rid of your family.

I love my family, but they, they became stand-in.

Yes.

Because I wasn't with my family.

Yes.

But they stood in the gap in ways that they probably didn't always realize.

They were doing, but there was intentionality in it.

And, yeah.

That's amazing.

They set a model, these people all have set a model for us then,

on how we've done life.

That's so cool.

Yeah, but there was also in that community a lot of, you know,

good-sized portion of young adults.

So it wasn't just there was people who were older, you know,

in a better, in an older stage of life than us.

Yeah.

There was also people that were our peers,

the way you would just have lots of fun with them,

build some connection with.

And then, and then, and then.

Were you going through the same good things?

Yeah.

And then one of the people showed, showed up with you.

Yeah.

And then one family there was a younger girl probably,

maybe 10 years younger than you, who really bonded with you.

And so you had the opportunity to start pouring into her life.

Yeah.

You know, so it's that, it's that multi-generational community that we need.

Right?

That really showed us the importance of, yeah,

mums and dads pouring into us, brothers and sisters, you know,

shoulder to shoulder.

And then other people that you can, you know, just pour your life into.

Yeah.

That makes a huge difference to them.

You can pass on what you've received.

You can pass on.

Yeah.

Do the same for them, right?

So is this where you guys kind of, because I know you,

you like work your way up in finance?

Yeah.

Because you met, you got those life skills, right?

Yeah.

Exactly.

And then, but then always felt that calling as a pastor.

Did you feel it even when you were like a missionaries kid as well?

Yeah.

Yeah.

When I was 10, I, I had this school project.

And there's, what do you want to do when you grow up?

And I remember rising, I want to be a missionary like my dad.

I didn't, you know, and I was thinking maybe we'd get Africa or, you know,

because that's my.

Yeah.

That's where I was growing up.

Yeah.

And it turns out that from England, we, the Lord called us to go and plant a church in Australia.

Okay.

And then to go to America and then to Canada.

So it kind of, it turns out there'd been a missionary all along.

Yeah.

Not to the nations as expected.

Yeah.

That was so interesting.

So we, we were in that in the church in England for about eight years.

And that's where we experienced a move of the spirit through Toronto, you know,

the one we was doing here in Toronto.

Yeah.

And I think that probably there was within that church, the other dimension of it was that emphasis on the grace of Jesus,

the relationship with the Holy Spirit, the Father's love.

And therefore, really not just growing horizontally in our relationships in our community,

but also being really developed in our relationship with the Lord.

And then, so I was, so we moved to Australia to plant a church.

I was still working in full time in finance.

Okay.

And I was at home with the kids.

Three kids by the way.

We had our fourth when we moved to Australia.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

So we had them like, a little bit like you, just about two, just two years or just under two years in between.

Yeah.

Except for them going for number three to four.

Yeah.

Because we moved to Australia and we weren't ready.

Yeah.

And that was an interesting season of small community.

And at first we moved to Melbourne and there was three, two other couples.

Okay.

You guys all moved together, you mean?

No, we met one couple that were already there that we knew.

Okay.

And then we met another couple that were from England and from Grating.

Okay.

And it was some challenges, mainly probably to do with my own insecurities and lack of leadership.

And so within a year we decided we were going to pack that church plant and move to Sydney because

there was a church that we'd also connected with in Sydney.

There were part of the same movement and they, we had bonded really well with the leaders just in the short times

and we'd been to visit passing through.

And they were saying come up and be part of this community.

Oh, okay.

And so we did.

Okay.

But that then where we ended up with that was, we ended up with family friends that, you know,

you both are kids and their kids lined up.

We lined up with the parents and we had some incredible life.

We still got lifelong friends again from that community.

Wow.

Working, working for and accounting for working long hours.

Yeah.

Basically I had to put the dream to be a passer to bed because it had become a bit of an ungodly ambition.

But it was community that carried us through.

Wow.

You know, like Ash was really sick with all the pregnancies.

All right.

It's the morning sickness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is a thing.

That's crazy.

You give you prescription medication for that.

I did it.

Yeah.

And I was in a hospital on Drits and everything.

And again, another time where we really relied on the family of God to help us.

Yeah.

You had four.

Yeah.

Four.

I know.

Well, here's the silver lining.

I had very good labor and delivery.

Right.

Like I like labor and delivery.

Oh, wow.

Oh, you want to know.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Well, the quickest was 45 minutes.

And the longest was.

It is two hours and.

Two and a half hours.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

From the start to the finish.

To pay for Salamah.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

But especially in Australia when we moved to Sydney, there was one couple that she had had a baby.

She had had a baby about nine months before our Sarah was born.

Okay.

They became best friends.

But Lynn, she would just pick up the kids after school that actually upon the couch while she

was throwing up.

Who's just a joke that she had to get rid of the couch ultimately because there was an ash.

An ash shaped.

Give it.

Give it in the couch because she, you know, they would feed us and they would look after us.

And they would often come back from work and not go home and go to their house because they'd

looked after our kids.

Wow.

You know, there's just such a gift of community.

Right.

Amazing.

That's, it's so funny because now I understand why you guys care about this so much or why

you're so good at it.

Because we've received it.

Yeah.

Like you're such benefactors of it.

Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah.

We've seen how one of the impact is made on our own lives.

Yeah.

And, you know, I could point to many people that over the years that have been part of my life

in community that have, I've got a, I've been shaped by their lives.

Wow.

It's beautiful.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

So I think that all of that also then honed even our pastoral, you know, who we were going

to become as well in working in the church.

We had responsibilities in the church as we always volunteered and had roles, but never

been in full time.

Yes.

But it was when we came to the US to help plant, catch the fire rally, that we then stepped

into that space, which was, I think, I know was the result of words that have been spoken

over our lives, that we just had, like Murray said, at different points, just let die.

Yeah.

Because we just, you couldn't make it happen in your own, which you don't really want to.

Yeah.

You don't want to force God's hand.

No.

It doesn't usually go well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's them.

So then we were in the, in Raleigh.

Yeah.

And like being in Toronto, trying to foster a sense of community, because some of the places

you're describing sound like a little bit more small, close knit, more naturally there.

Yeah.

And Toronto's kind of the opposite.

Yeah.

Right?

Like it's very, everyone's kind of in their zone doing their thing.

It's big.

It's expansive.

Yeah.

No one's just around the corner.

Everyone's a 20-minute drive, you know, minimum.

Yes.

Yeah.

What are you guys learning?

Because you've been in Toronto for a couple of years now.

About four years.

Yeah.

We had had staff because we had been up to Toronto before, so it wasn't like we were completely

new to the staff, at least.

We were new to most of the church, but we knew a little bit acquaintances, at least, with

staff.

Yeah.

So that definitely helped.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's an interesting thing, because we were also coming as empty nesters then, so that's

another whole thing.

Yeah.

Because people know you outside of your kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, we have a life.

You have an identity in front of them, yeah.

So it was, it was, we were used to a big city, like Sydney's a big city, and you travel quite

a long way to get to people, so we were used to that, although the community, the church

that we were part of were in a fairly local area, which is, that is different to Toronto.

Yes.

So the other thing that's different, I mean, Sydney is quite a diverse city, but Toronto

is extremely diverse, in terms of culture, culture and everything, which we love, we absolutely

love it.

That's been quite exciting for us, but there are, you know, you, it, it, then it takes

you time to get to know people in a, in a new place, and you have to be incredibly intentional,

and because there's so many people, and you have to think, okay, well, who, who am I going

to start with?

Yeah.

I started with the staff, really, and then some people in the church, and we were saying,

we, it's like going on a bunch of first day, and then you're deciding, do I want to go

on a second day?

I think there's something I want to, or they don't want to, and we're like, exactly,

some awkward like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but it takes time, but it doesn't just happen

like that.

Yeah.

So I think also trying to keep an open heart to people, yeah, and create a sense of warmth

and belonging, even if we're never going to be best friends.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm not, I'm not good at being fake, like, I can be, I'll be polite, I hope, I'm supposed

to be the diver.

You're polite for sure.

Yeah.

But I'm, I'm not good at faking it.

Yeah.

So I really look for, and I ask the Lord for people, can, can you help me find people

that they can be themselves with me, and I can be myself with them, and that helps you

to feel, for me anyway, that helps me to feel like, okay, I've got some, once I find just

a few of those people, then I'm like, it's like, oh, okay, then I can stretch that, that

out a little bit further.

Yeah.

And it's been, every time we've moved, everywhere we've lived, that's been a prayer, especially

for you.

Yeah.

And our kids.

Yeah.

Help us to find people that we can connect with, yeah, it's so good.

And I value, I do really value that, we, I think we both value that authenticity, and

you know, people not saying, yeah, I'm fine.

Right.

It's not my natural inclination, Ash is called, pulled me up into being a more relational

like, one of my challenges is I can be much more project over people, and I have to work

on that, but I get to ride on Ash's coat tails a little bit.

100%.

You know, and then, because we've been married now for nearly 32 years, it actually has created

opportunity for me, I've changed, yes, hopefully, for the better.

Yeah.

In our own little communities, because in our own little community, right?

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Telling each other the truth.

Yeah.

Which is all part of it too, right?

Yeah.

There's all of the podcasts there.

Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

So, how do you guys break down like the leadership layer, I guess, that can exist in churches?

Because you're talking about connecting with people within the church, and like my dad

was a United Church pastor for 35 years, and he was taught in seminary, don't make friends

with your congregants.

Right?

Because you're going to leave every five years anyway.

You're going to break their hearts.

Yeah.

It makes it all messy and complicated.

So, don't do it.

Yeah.

It's a generational thing.

Definitely generational thing.

I think it's something they might teach.

Yeah, they might teach that in those seminaries, actually, to be fair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Yeah, sure.

But then, like, you guys, I mean, to give some context for people who wouldn't know,

testifiers been around since the 90s.

I mean, actually started, I think, late 80s, technically, right?

Yeah.

89.

And a massive revival, a big local church movement that has planted churches all around

the world now.

And for probably a good decade, the question was like, who's going to take over Toronto

after Stephen Sandra?

Right?

That's a big question.

Yeah.

And eventually, like, God cleared it up that you had to be those people.

Surprise.

To us.

Yeah.

As well as all this.

Yeah, I think so.

I don't think anybody saw that one coming up.

No, we definitely didn't.

You know, I mean, I used to sit in the board meetings and, you know, like, your names

were not part of those conversations, right?

At least at that time.

Yeah.

It's definitely a revelation to stay from the Lord.

Yeah.

But it's amazing the way it's all worked out.

Yeah.

But I say all that to say, you guys inherited a very established movement with a global

presence, a big online audience as well.

You guys have that going as well.

So when you're talking about building community, you're like kind of the new people in the

block.

Yeah.

But you're in a very revered leadership position.

Yeah.

So how do you break down some of those walls that naturally exist when you're a leader?

Yeah.

You're trying to foster that community.

I think it is terrible advice to say, or it's, it's just a lie to say that as a pastor or

leader, you can't be friends with people in your church.

If I look at Jesus and the way he did it, he lived with them.

Like they were all spelling together and I'm just like, I feel like that's a, it's maybe

a self-protective construct.

Yeah.

I couldn't, if that was, if they were the real rules and I had to live by them, I wouldn't

be doing what I'm doing, honestly, because I just, I just don't think it's healthy to have

that.

I mean, boundaries are healthy and you, you don't live fully open with everything to everybody,

but if you are leading, I, I want to lead by example.

So I need to have people that I can, I can be vulnerable with and I need to be vulnerable

even on the platform to, for it, that to become safe for other people to be the same.

So for me, I, I just think it's, you just can't say, I, I just couldn't say, well, I'm

the leader, so I'm not going to be friends with people that I'm, that I'm leading.

Yeah.

I can't be friends with everyone, that would be impossible.

Yeah.

Do you ever get, like, when you started connecting with people, how do you, because I just,

I would think, like, if people know, like, you're going to be the passive Toronto, or you

are now the passive Toronto, like, do you ever feel the, the block a little bit?

Or like, because, you know, people will try to present things a certain way or a more

polished or, or it's like, it's overly pastoral, like, let me just tell you all the stuff I'm

going through and you just help me and save me.

Yeah.

Right?

That probably, probably some determining factors on whether or not they get a second date

you'd call them both, right?

But how do you also, like, yeah, how do you, how do you keep some of those walls down

today?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have an honest connection.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, for me, some of it starts with the language.

There's certain cultures, especially that will want to call me pasta, or ash pasta.

Right.

You can pass them around this from pasta to pasta.

Right.

Yeah.

And, um, and I've shocked a few people by telling them, please don't call me pasta.

It's, you know, it's what I do.

It's not who I am.

I understand the honour.

Yeah.

But, you know, because if we, if we use titles, we set ourselves up on a pedestal that

I don't want to do.

Um, I shocked another lady by calling, I've started calling her pasta because she's actually

a really good pastor.

So she started calling me a pastor.

So I said, oh, hi, pastor, and she, you know, the first time I said it, she sort of

got a bit bashful.

Um, um, so just trying to just live normally, yeah, and naturally and, and, and take down

if there's pedestals that we feel that people have put us on, yeah, just trying to do our

best to, to pull that down, yeah, um, one-on-one, but also from the platform being as transparent

obviously, if you're going through in your bleed, you don't want to be bleeding on the

stage.

Yeah.

Um, metaphorically so.

Yeah.

Or literally, um, but, but, but being able to be transparent, yeah, and authentic, yeah.

I think those are the things that we're, we've learned that we'll try and take down some

of that barrier between, yeah, you know, us, and us and them, if you like, yeah, it's

not, you know, I think as well, the other thing is, you know, people, it is a, it's a position

of honor and it's a privilege.

It is a real privilege to be given that role by the Lord.

Yeah.

So I, it is a real privilege.

So I, I wouldn't want to, like, belittle it.

Yeah.

So I understand that people, that people do, yeah, respect and honor.

Yeah.

I think when we do have conversations with people and, and sometimes people will, they

think, I've got to go to the pastor to get prayer or got to have, you'll know the answer

to these questions.

There are times where I'll say, I don't know, but I'll pray with you and, or you can pray

and I'll agree with you.

Or that person over there is really, really good.

Yeah.

Why don't you go and talk to them because you get a better experience than you have.

Yeah.

And there have been times where we have been helping people work through something, you

know, maybe it's marriage stuff or whatever, just issues of the heart.

And we will, we have said, because we've learned from our mistakes, where we felt like we

had to be the savior.

Yeah.

Right.

But where we've had to say, actually, we're going to keep walking with you, but we think

you need to get some help from somebody else who has more skill, maybe a professional

counselor or something like that.

Yeah.

So that's really good.

That's where I think that has also helped to then, I think that builds trust and connection

with people.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And it also kind of clears the boundaries a little bit as well.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things that we spent some time through our time in Raleigh learning

about some of the brain science and some of the practicing some relational skills and

that kind of thing.

And we realized that a simple way of creating belonging is just a smile, right?

Yeah.

You know, to see somebody, you walk into a room and you just, you know, do the best to

remember their name, although that's a challenge when you've got 2400 people or whatever it is.

Yeah.

I mean, they're not on a Sunday, but lots of people and lots of different names.

But, you know, I've often prayed and asked the Lord to help me remember people's names

because that's really important.

Smiling at them, remembering, just, you know, demonstrating that I'm glad that you're

here.

Actually, you can do a lot just from a smile when you look at someone in the eyes.

And that's this brain science behind that, that actually creates a sense of belonging,

family, community, connection.

That I'm a source that we're giving someone else the understanding that they're a source

of joy to us.

Yeah.

That's important to us.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Looking them in the eye.

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah.

That's funny.

Actually, the guest I had in studio before that, we were talking about smiling as well.

Yeah.

And he was talking about how the brain just naturally can determine if a smile is actually

authentic or not.

Authentic.

Yeah.

And what a difference it makes when it is, right?

Yeah.

Some of the feel accepted and walked them in everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And nobody looks at us and nobody smiles at us.

And then you think, are you actually happy for me to be here?

Do I belong here?

Yeah.

And that can, you know, happen to me a few weeks ago when there's in another city and

I went into a meeting and, you know, a few people just didn't even look at me.

Yeah.

And it made me wonder where they were at, not that I was feeling secure about it because

I'm, you know, I feel secure in myself.

But it did make me think, oh, where are they relationally?

Right.

Whereas if you walk into a room and somebody just smiles at you.

Yeah.

You know, you can see someone across the room and you can give them a smile.

Yeah.

And that just makes a huge difference.

What a difference.

Yeah.

It really is.

Huh.

So, okay.

So there's some questions on the other side.

Yeah.

So for people that are attending churches, I think, like, this is a big conversation now right

about loneliness.

Yeah.

And then people feeling like they, everyone's hearing about, like, you need to have community.

Yeah.

And obviously, like, you guys have such a great story about that.

But then I think people are struggling to find that, you know, or figure out how it works.

There's some unique challenges with, like, digital world, all that kind of stuff, like,

maybe some unreal stack expectations, but also, like, you can sit on the couch now and

just attend church, like, attend church, quote unquote.

What are some of your pieces of advice for people that are saying, like, hey, I'm trying

to plug into the church, not even test the fire necessarily, but just trying to plug

in, I want to build a sense of community, but I'm struggling either to find those people

or can't get traction with people.

Any words of wisdom there?

Sure.

Yeah.

Just to acknowledge that the struggle can be real, you know, we've been in situations

and contexts where people have said to us, you're very welcoming, but not very friendly.

You know, and by that, I mean, we're happy to see you, but then getting beyond this barrier

into deep friendship, this, you know, can be a, can be a real challenge, because, like,

you say, social media people are very busy with their lives.

There's lots going on.

You know, I think it's, first thing is to acknowledge that it is, it is a common challenge

and it can be difficult and actually requires some, for you, and some intentionality for

it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think, is it Dietrich Bonhoeffer that said, if, if you are looking, oh, what is

that?

It says, if you, if you pursue community, you will kill community.

But if you love people well, you will create community everywhere you go.

Yeah.

Something like that.

I think, I think a long, what that says to me is sometimes, and I think it's exacerbated

by social media, because there's these curated lives that you're looking at, mine does not

live up to them.

Yeah.

Perfect life, the perfect church.

Yeah.

Perfect family and all the friends that are going and having fun, and I wasn't invited

and all of that stuff.

Yeah.

I understand that, that, that kind of exacerbates loneliness for people and the feeling of isolation

or exclusion, but you can still feel that when you walk into a, like a church community,

which is kind of what we're talking about.

And, but I, but I think having the, having the mindset of, I get, I'm part of the building

of community is very important.

So I'm not coming so that people can offer me community, I'm coming because I get to

be part of building the community.

Now I think that's a bit of a shift for some people because they're, they're coming

and judging, well, and, and I understand, you know, you, you get a sense of things.

You can get a feel, is this a welcoming space?

Are people friendly and warm and is there, can I find a place to belong?

Can I see myself somewhere in this?

That, and that's important that a large group, and we as the leaders of that group,

we set the tone of that, but I think we all, as individuals, have the responsibility

to actually be part of adding or subtracting from any, any space that we're in.

Yeah.

So I think having the mindset of when I go, and I do this when I go into a new place and

people might say, well, you're extroverted, yeah, I may be, but I can still be intimidating

at times.

But I go into a new, and new place.

I'm, I'm looking, I'm not waiting for them to greet me or make me feel welcome.

And we used to tell our kids this all the time when you go to a new school, because our

kids have lived on three different continents now.

They've had to face new cultures, environments, everything.

We would say to them, you are, you're a Smith.

You are Izzy or Hannah or Lucy or Sarah, and you're a really amazing person.

You're worth getting to know.

And you're worth getting to know.

You're a good friend.

Wow.

And so when you walk into that cafeteria at lunchtime or when you walk into this new youth group,

just remember that you are worth getting to know.

And so you need to go and find people and start connecting with them, smile at them.

Just join in the conversation and, and remember that, that you are worth getting to know.

Wow.

And so I tell that to myself, I'm going to go in here.

And I, it may not, everyone may not want to get to know me, but there will be people

in here that, that it's worth, they're knowing me.

So I'm going to go and smile at you, I'm going to go and make, start up a conversation

or try and join in a conversation and find a point of connection.

If you snub me or whatever, okay, that's okay, I'll go and find somebody else.

And that's okay.

And I think, I think that you have to kind of, I wouldn't encourage people to have that

mindset of, don't wait for it, be, be on the front foot of trying now, try and try again.

Of course, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That being said, there are moments where you, you could say we need community to heal,

but sometimes we need to be, you have some healing before we step into community.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Because there is a, before we go deep, before we deep, because there is a sense of,

I've been rejected and I feel abandoned or I feel like people don't want to be my friend

or I feel like I'm not worthy of love.

Yes.

And so sometimes, actually, you know, the very act of being in community will help that.

But sometimes the pain of that will stop us from becoming, getting into that community.

And therefore we do need to also go after some of those roots of rejection or pain or,

you know, not being worthy to be, because what Ashley you're talking about is actually

having a fairly healthy self-construct, a sense of self, isn't it?

That's right.

And if you don't have that, sometimes it's more help, it's important to actually deal with

those issues.

Some of the roots.

Some of the roots.

Yeah.

Before you can fully embrace community.

Yeah.

But then other times you can fully embrace community and some of the healing comes with it,

right?

Yeah.

For me, I, from some of the pain of my past and then my own responses and reactions to

how I lived, you know, I had some trust issues with men.

And so going into a big community where there were strong men could feel a scary for

me.

Yeah.

Could feel a bit intimidating and I might not feel safe.

Not because those men aren't safe, but because I've had that experience in my past.

And so, and then I've made it mean something in my head.

And so whether it was related to my dad or other men and experiences.

So when I had experiences where what was coming up in certain relation, like as I'm stepping

into relationship, like what should be a healthy relationship with another male, I was

in a community.

I was, I felt unsafe or I felt like abandonment or insecurity or I'm not good enough.

I have to perform to get your approval or whatever.

And the very thing that should be healing for me was, was pushing on the buttons.

So I needed to go and receive some healing, some prayer and some help to work through

some of those things in my heart and what I made it mean.

Which then made it more possible for me to step into a bit more healthy relationship

with, you know, a male figure.

And so I, and then in that context, I needed safe, healthy men who could reflect to me

what that is like.

And that helped me to then become more comfortable and that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it does.

Like there's kind of that, number one, I like what you're saying, like you have to take

initiative, right?

You can't just wait for everyone to come to you.

Like you have to take initiative, if you know who you are, right, there's a degree of

like you're, you're only going to show up as much as you know yourself.

But then also that might involve some healing, right?

Some work that's required that will limit or determine how deep you can go.

Yeah.

I think the other thing I would add to that is what we were saying earlier about every

time we've moved to a different community is pray and ask the Lord for somebody.

It can be one person, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And sometimes we might be looking for a peer, but there's someone that would actually

be a stand-in parent that's just there.

We don't, maybe we don't have eyes to see if we're looking for a peer.

Yeah.

Or, you know, sometimes if we're looking for a parent, then we're there.

There's a peer that we mess.

Yes.

So I think it's just, it's going in and being, praying and then being open to who the Lord

brings in and trying to be open, obviously.

Yeah.

If you've had wounding in the past, that does become a challenge.

Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

And it makes sense though, because I think like the whole, like the, you know, the human

heart is so, is so tender.

Yeah.

And obviously like it gets the fire in that environment.

We talk a lot about healing in our relationship with God as well, which is really that the

centerpiece of all this, right?

It is the way you show up, the way you see yourself, the way you're going to want to connect

with others.

Yeah.

That's the big determining factor, right?

Absolutely.

Good point.

But, but I think what you're saying is very true, that like, yeah, sometimes you need

to do the therapy, the inner healing, whatever it is, because that's what actually creates

that capacity for you to connect deeper with God, but also with the people that you're

around.

Yeah.

I think, I think especially, maybe our generation, maybe it's not like the world, but I would

say millennials in particular, I think we've been given the wrong message, which is just

that like church is supposed to meet all your needs for you, they should have it all figured

out.

And it's very like, we're very, we're very consumeristic, right?

Yeah.

And I think, I mean, you guys are in trouble, I'm sure you feel that a little bit, you

know, like, like people will definitely hop from church to church and whatever, right?

Yeah.

And we were talking about parking, right?

Like, the parking thing I can understand, but I know sometimes people are like, oh, I don't

like the way they do this or that.

Like, it's pretty things that people kind of, yeah, who's the church over?

So I like what you guys are saying, because I think it's important that we're taking that

responsibility.

Yeah.

For people who maybe even are hearing this and are like, okay, I think I do, I'm realizing

maybe some of my own wounding is there, and I'm not healing in the community I have, but

I know I need to get some more help.

How do people start that journey and start to figure out what they need?

Yeah.

Great.

But on your own, I remember reading a book by Brendan Manning, I don't know if you've,

you know, he's a Catholic, Catholic priest who's, what was his big book?

Abbas.

Abbas child.

Abbas child.

Abbas child.

And it's also, I think, in furious longings with God.

He talks about this discipline that he, that he'd practiced or he'd got other people

to practice.

And he talks about this story of, I won't get all the details right, but about, you

know, he's in a monastery somewhere, he gets a knock on the door, it's a nun, she's

in her seventies, she's in tears, she said, you know, when I was young, like a small

child, my dad molested me, I lost my child and I lost my innocence, I became a nun because

I thought I wanted to just get rid of the guilt, but I felt so guilty all my life and

my life feels like it's been a total waste of time.

And I feel like it's been, you know, I've got no hope or joy and I can't forgive my dad.

Right?

That's a pretty big deal.

Right?

To live with that for sixty, seventy years.

Yes.

So here's just what he says.

He says, I want you to lie on your back for half an hour a day and I want you to breathe

in really deeply and breathe out, really deeply.

And I want you to breathe in, Abba, and now as you breathe out, I want you to just breathe

out, I belong to you.

Now, you can't do it out loud because you're breathing in and talking, I've been ventilated.

But just in your mind, breathe in, deep, deep breath, physiologically, it calms you down,

I belong to you as a meditation and he said, do that, see how it happens.

So a couple of weeks later, it gets a letter from the nun.

I, God, met me.

I was able to forgive my dad.

I feel like I've got my childhood back.

I feel like my life has purpose and meaning I have so much joy, all from breathing in

and breathing out.

Wow.

Wow.

Right?

And so I, because I've had my own journey with feeling disappointed, I like a disappointment

and, you know, I have to present myself as the big Murray so that everybody likes me

or because I feel insignificant or, and then shrink away when I feel I've done something

wrong.

And so I've had to work through some of those things that have impacted community.

And I've found we can get into the other things that we've done.

But I found those really simple disciplines like Abba, I belong to you.

Really, really powerful.

Because it's just me and God.

And the beautiful thing is, if I practice it enough, I can do it anywhere, anytime and

know what else knows.

Right?

Right.

But I mean, I'm grounding myself in the reality of who God is.

That would be one thing.

The other thing that we learned would be the Emanuel, you know, engaging with God through

a manual prayer.

You want to share a little bit about that?

Please.

Yeah, sure.

It's just really, so quite often when you're doing inner healing or, you know, stuff

of hard work, you, you're encouraged to go for the negative memory, like find out what

the issue is, the root.

But if you imagine a kid, you're a parent with a little child and you say, I need you

to go get me that wrench from the darkest place in the basement.

And there's no light down there.

But just go get it for me.

They're going to be petrified and it's not easy for them to go there.

I'm likening some of the hard work that we're doing.

It's a bit scary to find those, the trauma first thing early on.

So what Emanuel prayer does is you, you find a point of connection with Jesus first where

you, it's, it's usually from a memory where you felt a strong connection with him.

Okay.

And you interact with him in that memory and it just, and it's like, then Jesus is going

to come with you if you're ready to go to those places and it's directed by God being

with you as opposed to me going to the negative memory and trying and asking him to come and

meet me there.

I'm actually engaging with him through the Holy Spirit and through that memory of connection

with him.

Yeah.

Refreshing that now.

And then it refreshes it and I just sit with him in that, which also builds my capacity

to experience the joy of his presence.

And then there's the more fullness of joy.

So it's easier for me, which is what we're here after anyway, exactly to go to those places

of pain and trauma.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Emanuel approach.

It's by Dr Carl Lehman.

Okay.

Out of Chicago.

Very, he's a prolific writer.

Very helpful.

We found it.

Very helpful.

And then the other thing has been about the power of what you've got more to say about

that.

No, I was, I mean, I'm maybe just going down a slightly different track, but thinking about

a person who's saying, I'm trying to find community and I, I can't where I'm at.

I think there are times where, or I'm trying to find healing, whatever it is, and community.

There are times where we do have to go somewhere different.

Yeah.

That's just the reality of it for, for what our needs are.

I just think, you know, for me, there are times where it's right for me to stay even though

it's uncomfortable and to press in.

And I think sometimes we are, like you were saying, people have a consumerist mentality.

And it's not just millennials, it's, I think it's maybe a bit more of a Western thing.

And we've just grown up with this concept of, I have everything right at my fingertips

when I need it, as soon as I need it, and it's like fast.

And it's all about me feeling comfortable and, and, and good.

Yeah.

But actually, we forget that Jesus, you know, if we're following Jesus, actually, he has

called us to a life that is death and, and, and there will be hard things.

And so, but he's promised that he's going to be with us in those hard things.

So sometimes it's a matter of asking myself, am I wanting to run away and seek comfort

elsewhere?

And I know all about that.

I can get comfort from a relationship that's not healthy.

I can get comfort from food.

I can get comfort from, you know, binge watching something on television or reading, you know,

something that's going to distract me.

But from dealing with it.

So I, it's like asking myself, what is my heart need and is, is going the right thing

or am I escaping?

Yes.

Because it's, I've not given enough time or I've not actually pressed in enough.

Yeah.

And maybe not being vulnerable with somebody.

Yeah.

Or is it that this is just not the safe space that I need for this season in my life.

So I need to go and, yeah, find another.

And I guess that discernment is just something you develop at time.

Yeah.

And I think you need to talk, that's where you do probably need to try and talk to somebody

else that you know could give you some wise counsel.

Yeah.

And that doesn't have to always be someone that knows you super well.

But it could just be someone that you've seen and, and you trust, you've seen their life

and you trust them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I would give it a go for a while.

Yeah.

Because otherwise you just be persistent a little bit at least.

Yeah.

I would practice some other things.

So I mean, I think it's a really beautiful point.

How else can you keep working through while you're waiting to assess, is this me or is

this place that I need to move?

There's other things that we, you know, we can do.

So we practice a lot of appreciation and gratitude, right?

Because again, what we've understood from brain science is that gratitude opens you up

for relationship, right?

It switches on the front.

Relational.

So it's in your brain.

And so the more you can express appreciation and gratitude, genuine, genuine, yeah, yeah,

important.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

So building in the disciplines of some Abba prayer, some manual prayer, you know, building

capacity and then building, you know, practicing some appreciation.

Yeah.

Those are all things that are going to open you up for relationship, right?

And build joy.

And build joy within it.

Strengthens you to then be able to face hard things.

So that's like what you can do on your own.

Yes.

And then you can, there's so many healing modalities aren't there, even there's, you know, restoring

the foundations, there's a manual approach, there's heart sync, there's sozo, there's the

apostolic prayer, there's, you know, there's therapy, there's trauma counseling, which Ash and

I have been involved with and some, you know, being part of, you know, had some receiving

it's amazing.

There's lots of things you can go and then get some more professional either Christian

help or, you know, actual professional help.

Yeah.

Hopefully, mate.

Or maybe both.

Yeah.

But, but, but build it yourself first.

Yeah.

And then as you build those things and you'll find yourself, okay, I'm practicing my joy,

I'm practicing Abba prayers, I'm building my joy capacity with the Lord, then if I can't

find something else in this community, or maybe then it's time to start thinking about

is God has, has God got something else forming somewhere else?

Or is there a pocket of, I might stay here in this community, but is there a pocket of

people?

Yeah.

That I, I may be walking through some similar things or I, I can find some joy and connection

there.

Yes.

Yeah.

I think that really helps.

Here's the other thing that I'm thinking.

If you're okay, if we go down the street, but so sometimes so in the beginning God gave

Adam and Eve the garden, and he said, 10 the garden and, and work it.

And so there was responsibility placed on them.

And I think maturity, our own maturity, obviously when we're babies and little kids, we, we receive

healthy or unhealthy bonds and identity from our, whatever our family unit is and that

can be good and bad.

Yes.

So there is responsibility on caregivers for that.

But as we, you know, get to a certain age, it, that our maturity and growth in one sense

has, God has given us our own hearts to gardens still.

Now he loves to work with us and, and we can receive help from others and that's important.

I think what we're talking, some of what we're talking about is learning to tend our garden.

Very much so.

We're in a, in a world.

Yes.

And allow it to come out when we find safe people.

Yeah.

Or we pay people to help us.

That's right.

Or a mix of both.

Or a mix of both.

But here's the thing.

Sometimes I've realized is I, I might be looking and we love encounters with God.

We love the Holy Spirit.

We love just those foundations in our movement and in, you know, the church.

Sometimes we can look for another fix.

And we've been a little bit like we get comfort from food or something else.

Yeah.

And then we get comfort from going and having another in a healing session.

And he and me, I'm not saying that's bad.

Yeah.

But actually, there might be a point where what I have received, I need to learn to walk

out.

And I think that is where community is very important and necessary.

And you can't be a person who says, I'm just going to do this alone with Jesus.

And it's just me having another encounter with Jesus or me having another prayer ministry

session.

It's like I, if I'm struggling to say no to something, I might, or I don't know how

to eat healthily or I don't know how to not keep looking at poor and or whatever.

And I've had, I've done a lot of the hard work.

I actually might need to have help from someone who's walked ahead of me and asked for that

help.

Yeah.

I mean, you guys are speaking my language because I told you like we built this, this

brotherhood in deep clean that is getting some great traction.

And one of the things that we're seeing is, it's exactly this.

It's like guys are getting, they're getting tools to heal, they're getting opportunities

to explore like some of the more root causal issues of their struggle.

But then they can have more transparent conversations in a group environment.

And we see the best outcomes for sure in the people that do both.

Yes.

Right?

They'll do the work and they get those breakthroughs.

Sometimes it's nothing monumental, but they still do the work.

Yeah.

But when you're processing it with the other guys, you're talking it through, you're

hearing their perspective, maybe they're asking some questions back, like that kind

of walking it out or at least working it out.

Is really where formation actually happens.

Absolutely.

That's where real maturity is built.

Yes.

And I think that part can be harder to find, right?

Yeah.

You have to work to find it.

And then you also have to work to walk it out, like you said.

Yes.

And the charismatic church, like, we can definitely be guilty of like, you're just chasing

one conference after the next, one breakthrough after the next when most of the work actually

happens in between.

Yes.

Like the breakthroughs are free, but the maturity is expensive.

Yeah.

So much time to walk that out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I read the other week that character is basically formed out of two libraries in our

brain.

Right.

So there's a library that says, what has worked in the past, what have, when we've encountered

this situation, what's, what's our reference point, what's worked in the past, what's happened,

and then the other library that our brain subconsciously filters through is, how is

it most like our people to act in this, in this situation?

Most like our people.

Yeah.

Oh, interesting.

So who is our people?

Right.

So that's where community comes in.

So for instance, if you're, if you're got into a pattern of, I've, when I'm in, I'm

in work, I'm getting under pressure, I turn to something to find some false joy or false

comfort, like pornography or like food or something like that, or that, that's my history

tells me that's what I do.

But then if you're in a community that is, you see, well, my dad, when he responded

the way, he just responded in the same way, he, he got stuck in the newspaper or whatever.

Yeah.

And this then becomes, this is how, how, how, how are people function?

Right.

Okay.

So what we need to do is we need to have new libraries, you know, brains, so how do you

get the new library?

Well, I, I see how other people function.

Oh, there's a different way of doing it.

That's amazing.

And then I start to see, okay, our people, this is, it's most like us to actually not

turn to porn or alcohol or food or whatever, but actually to turn to community or find

joy.

And so I think what you're, what you're doing in your groups is just that, you're giving

people a new library of options of how a choice to make, and you're giving people a new

sense of these are our people, and our people are people that don't turn to this, we're

actually doing something different.

Yeah.

And so we're literally re, rewiring.

That's why community is so important because you need, we all have bad examples of our

way we function, the decisions that we made and our people, but we're in a healthy community,

we're now learning, yeah, the whole new skill set.

That's a pretty fascinating concept, because you can't change the library of your past experiences,

no.

But you can change the library of the people that you're around.

Yeah.

And you can see the way other people have responded.

And so you can actually change your library, because you're now no longer historically driven,

you've now got a different, it changes your perspective, different reference points.

So I know, oh wow, I've always gone to doing this, but my friend's a Thea, he got breakthrough

and I know when he does this, this is what he does.

So now I've got our people, So Thea, and what he does as a, as a reference point, reference

point.

Oh, interesting.

He's going to do something different.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

But that's really fascinating with that.

When I heard that, I'm like, that's why community, healthy community is so powerful.

Yeah.

Because it actually gives us an opportunity to rewire our brains to shape our character for

the good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So incredible.

Yeah.

How much does the matter, because now as we're talking about this, I'm thinking some of

the stuff we've been talking about, like, people, or barriers that people run into, you

know, building community, how different is this between genders?

So you guys have even talked like a little bit, like as a couple, like, right, going on

those first dates, quote, unquote, the double dates, and like, kind of know people.

And then now I'm thinking about, even the way women would foster community versus guys,

like all the concepts we've talked about are applicable, I think, in both.

But any, I don't know, any, like gender specific pieces of wisdom on the subject for people

that want to foster more community in their lives.

I would say it would, yes, I would say it's harder for man, isn't it?

I think so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like we're not naturally as good at it.

I'm not, I'm not sure how to say that.

No, I think what I've observed, because I'm not a man.

But please tell us.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

Yeah.

It seems to me that way, whereas women, I think, and I'm, this is a generalisation, because there's

some men with a heart on their sleeve and a very open, and we'll just, you know, you

can have a heart to heart straight away.

But generally speaking, women tend to be a little bit more vulnerable sooner with each

other.

And we might go,

So we'll have the general chit chat, you can generally then move into something a little

bit deeper.

Now again, it's a generalization.

No, I think that's true.

I think women do connect just naturally in conversation and depth of conversation.

They call it like, there's like biology behind this, like it's oxytocin bonding, it's

like you're sharing about the stuff you've gone through, that type of bond.

But with guys that's vasopressin bonding, which is all about like, you have to do stuff

together, you want to be together, you play a game together, like there's some activity

and then usually the conversation kind of comes on the back end, so I think that's true.

Yeah, I think you can learn, it just requires more intentionality and more learning for

a guy, right?

So part of my history is not really being very good with my emotions, not really understanding

my emotions, only really having one emotion, which would be anger, but it would take a while

to come out, or it would be, like, suppressing anger.

I really had to work on learning to express my emotion.

And part of that is receiving wisdom from a counselor, but part of that is also seeing

other guy friends that have been really good at sharing their emotion.

I'm like, wow, I love how you did that.

And so again, it's not with everybody, but I've got some friends where I've generally

bonded with them over doing something like learning how to make coffee or whatever.

But then, as I'm becoming more fluent with my emotions, learning to actually begin to

express how I feel, what I feel angry about, what I feel sad about, what I feel a bit guilty

about, what I fearful about, and that doesn't come naturally, but I'm having to be intentional

to work on it.

So I've started with the Lord first, and now I'm trying to push the boundary of that

with my friends so that I can actually create a sense of belonging because I'm now being

known.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

You don't want to be good at knowing, but not being known.

Yeah.

I think that, I think some of that is lost.

We don't even get there in a lot of the guy relationships because, to your point, we're

not actually doing stuff as much as it seems like it's true, right?

We're a little bit more like glue to our screens, and there's value in like game together

and watching a game or something together, but it's not the same as playing a game together,

right?

Or building something together, learning how to make coffee together, you know, whatever

it is.

Yeah.

And I think that, but I think you're right, like, I'm the same person, like, so many issues

learning to express my emotions still, like, definitely like an area I really need to grow

in.

Yeah.

So much on Shaloma for that.

Yeah.

She helps me a lot.

Yeah.

But I think that's also, like, against something that I think women can, women are just thinking

about more, seem to be more conscious of it, can communicate about it, and like, there's

no fear of being, like, weak for having emotions, whereas I think guys, we have, like, some

of those things we need to get past, obviously, depending on the community, but I guess it does

depend on the community.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you have a, if there's a low love, low, low sense of love and acceptance and affirmation

generally within the community, then it's much harder to be transparent and open, isn't

it?

Yeah.

You know, if you're in a community where people just cut you down, they're not happy to

see you.

They just, it's just jokes at your expense or whatever or performance.

It's like, you didn't do that well enough.

Yeah.

None of that's going to build community, right?

All of that's going to actually turn off because, you know, you talked about bonds, oxytocin

bonds, but for all of us, the key is bonding, our heart to design to bond, you know, attachment,

theory and all of that kind of stuff of, you know, our bonding is set in our set, in

our early ages, our capacity to bond, but the Lord can bring healing to that and to

really thrive to find a community is that you can actually bond through love, right?

By not like mushy, lovely, but just kindness, openness, friendship, you know, that makes

a big difference, doesn't it?

Yes.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

And I think generally women tend to appreciate each other a little more, I mean, they,

I remember being a young teenager can get a bit Cassie and competitive, but I think

as you become more comfortable in your skin and who you are, you tend to celebrate each

other, which does help you to feel loved and accepted and then willing to share.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a really good point.

Yeah.

That's so good, guys.

It's sad with you.

Yeah.

To be on the podcast.

Yeah.

Do you want to point anyone anywhere if they want to connect with you guys more or find

out more?

CTF Toronto.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't do social media.

You'll find me on social media, but you won't find me if you like.

Yeah.

I've never on there personally.

But yeah.

CTF Toronto.com.

Yeah.

Oh, YouTube.

Catch fire Toronto.

You can subscribe to our YouTube page.

We have a School of Ministry, which is a great place if you are looking for some healing.

Yes.

Healing.

The School of Ministry on our website.

Yeah.

Also, so Toronto.com.

Yeah.

And then we also have, we do transformation weekends at the church, which we, if you don't

have to attend our church to attend a transformation weekend, we have them four times a year, and

they're great opportunities to just, if you do want to have a space to process and connect

with the father, deal with some of the internal issues, be filled with the Holy Spirit.

It's a great place for that.

It's a great place for that.

Highly experiential, we're trying, it's some teaching, but also some encounter.

So good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.