Trump Threatens to Steal the Midterms

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Welcome to Paz de America. I'm John Favre.

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

On today's show, Trump already seems deadly serious about his intention

to interfere with the midterm election.

So we're going to talk about why the rest of us should take the threat just as seriously.

We've also got more on Minnesota and immigration where Trump has choice words about Alex Prety and Renee Good.

And a Trump DOJ prosecutor goes viral for telling a judge that her job sucks and the system is broken.

We'll also talk about Trump and JD Vance berating CNN's Caitlin Collins for not smiling

while she asks a question about underage rape victims.

And we'll also get into the massive layoffs that may mean the end of the Washington Post,

at least as we know it.

Then, main governor and Senate candidate Janet Mills talks to Dan about her race against Grand Platter,

election security, getting ice out of Maine, and whether Democrats have an age problem.

Lots of news to talk about.

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Let's start with this week's five alarm fire, Dan.

In the clearest sign yet, the Trump and his goons are worried that they're going to lose the midterms.

They are already openly plotting to steal the election.

We talked last week about Trump sending the FBI and Tulsi Gabbard to raid the Fulton County elections office

and take all the ballots from 2020.

Earlier this week, Steve Bannon decided to up the ante on the crazy by saying this.

We're going to have ice surround the polls come November.

We're not going to sit here and allow you to steal the country again.

And you can, you can whine and cry and throw your toys out of the pram all you want.

But we will never again allow an election to be stolen.

Pretty crazy, right?

But, you know, per usual, the insanity traveled from the swamps of media right to the Oval Office

and we heard this from Trump during his interview with Tom Yamas of NBC News.

You've recently suggested nationalizing elections. What do you mean by that?

When, and I didn't say national it, I said, there are some areas in our country that are extremely corrupt.

They have very corrupt elections. Take a look at Detroit, take a look at Philadelphia, take a look at Atlanta.

There are some areas that are unbelievably corrupt. I could give you plenty or more too.

If they don't want voter ID, that means they want to cheat.

We can't allow cheating on elections. Now, if we need to put in federal controls as opposed to state controls,

if they can't do it honestly and it can't be done properly and timely, then something else has to happen.

Will you trust the results of the midterms if Republicans lose control of Congress?

I will, if the elections are honest. Look, I want the last one that wants to complain on.

Speaking of counties, what is happening? I'm not doing anything, but the FBI went in.

Why is Tulsi Gabbard there?

I don't know, but you know, a lot of the cheating comes from its international cheating.

We know that foreign governments try to influence a lot of things in this country.

Well, she's foreign government. But there should be nothing wrong with the fact that they went in,

got ballots from a while ago, and they're going to look at it.

And now they're going to find out the true winner of that state.

Nothing wrong with that. At least, we know that the Republican with the power to decide contested election results

that could determine control of the House would never go along with Trump's scheme, right?

We had three House Republican candidates who were ahead on election day in the last election cycle.

And every time a new tranche of ballots came in, they just magically whittled away until their leads were lost.

It just looks on its face to be fraudulent. Can I prove that? No.

Now, the red states have done a lot of good work in that front, but it's the blue states that I'm frankly concerned about.

Yeah, sure you are. So Dan, because we are a real news organization,

Crooked Media's own Matt Berg asked the White House specifically what Trump meant when he called for nationalizing our elections

in that NBC news interview and previous interviews.

Here's what the White House told us, quote, President Trump cares deeply about the safety and security of our elections.

That's why he's urged Congress to pass the SAV Act and other legislative proposals that would establish a uniform standard of photo ID for voting, prohibit no excuse mail in voting,

and end the practice of ballot harvesting. You feel better now?

I don't, Sean. I don't feel better.

That is an absurd answer that bears no connection to what Trump actually said.

When Trump was very explicit, he talks in there about the federal, the state's been agents of the federal governments.

The federal government taking over in certain places. He certainly was not referring to the passage of a national voter ID law that has no chance of passing, like he's being very explicit.

And I have a question for you, because I think generally when there is sort of alarmist discussion from Trump,

or maybe it like bubbles up through liberal media or online, you're the of us.

You're the least likely one to be alarmed typically.

Like you dig in deep to the details, you've come back and say, actually it's not as bad as you think it is.

Yet you seem quite concerned about this or more concerned than I am.

And I will go to the parts that you concern me, but where's your head on this?

Yeah, so having read all this and watched all this last night, I have now become quite concerned.

And it's specific concerns, right?

This idea that they're going to put in place federal controls, like that doesn't, that doesn't mean anything.

The federal government cannot put in place federal controls. It is against the law.

The federal government has no role in elections. That's the state's run, the elections.

We know that that is in the constitution. It is the law.

So him's talking about putting in federal controls, whatever else.

But what Bannon was saying, the ICE agents by the polls, which Caroline Levin was asked about it today at the White House briefing,

and she said, no, no, I don't think so. She's like, well, I can't promise you there's not going to be any agents anywhere near any polls.

That's for sure. So I worry about that. I worry about the intimidation, especially because of everything we've seen in Minnesota and elsewhere over the last year.

I think what I'm most worried about is Trump and all of his goons reviving the, let's seize the election machines.

Let's seize the ballots because now that they've gotten a taste for it in Fulton County.

And if you remember in 2020, they had an executive order drafted that supposedly would have given Trump the authority to send in the military, the National Guard, federal agents, whoever, and seize the voting machines.

And that is the one that really worries me because I think a lot of the stuff that you can litigate in court,

and I think even though the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court, on issues where sort of the sanctity of our elections.

And I'm not talking about voting rights act, voter suppression. They're horrible on all that, they're horrible on all that.

But when I'm talking about throwing out ballots, the craziest election stuff that Trump has tried to do, the Supreme Court has been good on it.

But when you talk about the federal government going into just seizing an election, it doesn't matter what the court rules at that point, they have the ballots.

That's it. That's like the end.

I mean, it's an interesting. So I am concerned about this. I've been concerned for a long time about the National Guard originally and now ice being at polling places.

And even just ban and in the right wing media saying, ice is me at polling places, we'll dissuade people who are American citizens who can vote, but are of color and worried about getting picked up and detained by ice from going out to the polls.

And that's going to be trickily prevalent in states that don't have readily available, early voting or mail voting.

And by the way, another way that this could work. So Trump and the White House decide not to be so obvious as to say, we're going to deploy a bunch of ice agents to the polls on election day.

Yeah, they just put them in the cities.

Yeah, they say, okay, the next operation, next on our list after Minneapolis is all the cities where there are close races in all the states where there are close races in the Senate and the House.

And those operations are happening, I don't know, maybe three weeks before election day, but they are, and so just enough time so that people like they are in Minneapolis right now.

So people who are worried that they're going to get picked up by ice are hiding in their homes and don't want to go for even groceries let alone to go vote.

The test of this will be Texas, right, where Democrat, there's been a huge swing in the Latino vote based on the special election this past weekend and some polling we've seen.

And ISIS stayed out of Texas in this sort of way because Trump really just deploys them in blue states to try to spark a reaction of some kind.

But if all of a sudden they start showing up in Houston or Dallas or San Antonio at a time in which control the Senate may come down to a race between Jasmine Crackett or James Salarico and a Republican, that would be the real test there.

I mean, there's some other things I'm worried about here. One, just using all of this to, you know, suggest you need federal monitors at elections that you're going to put people there to make sure that, you know, nothing is happening, right.

It's pure, I mean, this is, this is pre voting rights era voter intimidation, right. There's what you see here. And then the big one. And I think the absolute biggest one is whether is creating this climate of, you know, fraud and corruption that allows Mike Johnson, the pretext to not seat Democrats in a, in closely contested races.

Even though they had the other big one, yeah, even though they've been certified by the recount, the hand recount, the process in those states to claim that there is enough there not to seat them to hold on to the majority. If this comes down, like, I don't think he can't pull that off. And we gain 30 seats. And we, but if this comes down to essentially the majority of the Republicans had after 2022 where you're down to two seats. Could you see that happening. That seems very, very possible. And remember, Mike Johnson is someone who was intimately involved in this.

He was intimately involved in the stop the steel effort and pushing the big lion's 2020. So this is not, this is not Mitch McConnell or maybe even a Paul Ryan who's just like a long for the right. This is a true believer in those conspiracy theories.

Yeah. And so just to give everyone an example of how this might work. So Georgia, say control the Senate. It's a really close race in Georgia.

That's probably won't be the state that it comes down to because John has been doing quite well right now. But anyway, let's, let's imagine that it's really close in Georgia.

And he's already made this big deal of Fulton County and the FBI raided them and he comes back and says, oh, 2020 was rigged and we're going to have extra DOJ monitors around Fulton County, which, you know, they can do.

And it's really close. And now Trump says, oh, there's fraud and we're not going to certify it.

Now the Fulton County Board of Elections is run by his majority Republicans, specifically like election denying Republicans.

And they won't certify. Now the court can make them certify. But maybe before that happens and it's contested, you know, Trump sends in federal agents to grab the voting machines.

And now control of the Senate hinges on Georgia and the same thing could happen in the House. I guess it's more, it's probably more likely that it's a Mike Johnson House thing, right?

Because what happens is it's harder to seat the House.

But what happens is in a contested election where there is no certification of the final result yet. And January 3rd rolls around.

You're right that if the, if it's obvious the Democrats are going to control the House at that point, the House automatically just switches over to the Democrats.

And then they figure out who they figure out the contested House race under a Democratic majority.

But if that contested House race or several contested House race is what the control of the House hinges on, then Mike Johnson and the Republican House, they're still there on January 3rd until they figure it out.

And the House according to the Constitution gets to be ultimate arbiter of seating their own members and the results of an election. So that's, that's when you'd really work.

If I remember correctly, there are some limits in some previous court cases on this, but there's real room for monkey business that could delay a Democratic majority or prevent one if it's close enough.

Yes. Because they went down this road with Adam Clayton Powell, I think, and a couple other times over the course of American history.

But sometimes control of the House has hinged on some of these close contested uncertified elections.

And the vote has gone to the House.

And, and, and someone who was one or at least appeared to have win via the vote count isn't the one who gets seated.

It's happened before.

Yeah. This is one of those things where just these, these, the, well, people are listening to this and they're panicking and say, what do we do?

What do we do? What do we do? I mean, not to steal something from Trump here, but it has to be too big to rake.

You just have to win enough that you have to take the power out of their hands because there's really not a lot we can do right now other than raising awareness of this possibility to prevent Republicans from doing very, very bad things.

We learned that in 2020 when the election was very close.

And so therefore, like, just we got to go out and win. We got to go out and win enough seats that it's too big to rake.

Here's another, that's correct for all of us, I believe.

I think there's a role for democratic governors, state and local officials.

And I don't know when it is, but at some point, just throwing it out there.

But right now you hear them say, like, what Trump wants to do would be unconstitutional or, you know, nuisance out there being like, I don't think I'm worried that we're not going to have a free and fair election, right?

So there's a lot of either Democrats expressing concern about what Trump might do, Democratic officials, or Democrats saying like, this is authoritarianism.

This would be bad. I would like Democratic governors to go out there and say like, it is illegal and unconstitutional for the federal government to deploy any kind of federal agents or troops around polling places.

It is illegal and unconstitutional for the federal government to seize voting machines or to have the military seize voting machines.

And I think that every one of them should go out there, every Democrat should go out there and say, if they see federal agents anywhere near a polling place intimidating voters, they will be immediately ordered to leave.

If they see them try to seize voting machines, they will be immediately ordered to leave. And if they do not leave, they will be arrested.

And they will have, I mean, we've heard about this in Minnesota, right? Like in Jacob Fry, the mayor there was like, oh, could we technically have local police arrest ICE agents? Yes, legally, maybe, but obviously that gets really, that gets really dicey to actually have that conflict.

But if you get to the point where federal agents are intimidating people at polls or trying to seize fucking voting machines, which we know is flatly unconstitutional, I think that you let Trump know early.

You know, you don't do the, like, look what fucking all the Europeans finally did around Greenland, right?

Instead of just like letting Trump keep doing this, they were like, no, it's not for sale and you're when we're going to put troops in Greenland to make sure you don't do it. And he fucking back down.

Like, maybe not, maybe now is not the time and what, what month is it February?

But like, I think that sometime before the election, they have to, there needs to be a shot across the bow there that like you send federal agents in, they are, no, they are not going to be welcome.

I, I ask you and it mills about what they were doing in, in Maine to secure elections and get people can let's stay on and listen to the answer.

But what is clear is that Democratic government is beginning to think about this and problem, and I didn't ask this, but I imagine there are conversations happening amongst Democratic governors about what they can do together.

Because it's, there are some simple things like make clear the points you're making, just make it clear that the, I mean, this is an insane thing to say and the United States of America.

But that state troopers will be guarding the, the counting centers or the voting machines, like, like, there's just has a message has to be centrally that this is not going to be tolerated and we're not going along with this.

I think that's right.

And it is as much, I think because what Democrats have done in the past, what we love to do is it's like, we got our, we got all our lawyers in line and it's a big legal strategy and that's very important.

But it's just as much of a communications strategy at that point as it is a legal strategy.

We got, I feel good about our legal strategy. We got, we got some great, great lawyers in the Democratic party.

But on election night, if, if the count is close, you know that Trump's going to be out there and every Republican is going to be out there saying like, oh, these mail-in ballots, they're late.

All the shit they did in 2020, all the shit they do all the time now.

And Democrats just got to be out there right away being like, absolutely not, do not come near us, do not come near our, you know, we have the state troopers there.

We, we don't want to see you here. You're not welcome. Like, they just got to show a little, a little fight on this and not be, not be like crying authoritarianism, actually tell them what you're going to do and why they're not allowed to actually fucking violate the Constitution, especially when it comes to our elections.

So that's, that's just a thought that I've been having.

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Now that it's been a week or so since the the Fulton County raid.

Do you have a better understanding of what specifically Trump is trying to do there aside from just relitigating 2020?

And obviously, you know, I think we can guess that he wants to use the made up fraud that he's going to come out with from 2020 as a pretext to screw with 2026.

But like how like what a yeah, I think I don't think there's a master plan here.

I think this is the product of having a diluted conspiracy theorist in the Oval Office with a capacity to send federal agents down the rapid holes he'd like to explore.

Yeah.

And but so that's why this happened like he is obsessed with this. He can't get over it even though he's back in the White House.

He's wanted to do this for a long time now he's got no one who's going to stop him.

He has a director of national intelligence who was doing yoga on the beach during at the last major military operation and is trying to win back favor.

So she is spearheading this process is just worth noting that the director of national intelligence is spearheading.

In effort to investigate election fraud fake effort to investigate fake election fraud from five years ago six years ago.

But I do think this this is a pretext and a pretext like along the way as we talked about so there is what the federal government can do.

And then what can you do if you create this you know let's say they find.

They make something up they doctor something they find one ballot where the signature didn't match even though they're all matched by hand because of this one.

And they use this to suggest fraud so then that can lead to a couple things that can lead not just for pretext or federal government action.

It can lead to getting Republican election officials to change how votes are received or counted or certified to change procedures or laws to limit mail and voting early voting like making the signature match that much harder.

Throwing more ballots out purging the roles again ways to do that now.

They are limited in what they can do because a lot of the places where the house races will be decided are in states run by Democrats, California, New York.

A lot of states in the Midwest in Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania.

But you know the Senate the path to the Senate runs through red states.

The states with Republican governors that are going to matter in 2026 both in the Senate and in the House to an extent as well.

Iowa, Ohio, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Alaska.

Yep.

And those are the ones and you know like main New Hampshire, North Carolina, Michigan, Minnesota, all Democratic governors.

There's some high seats in Arizona, Democratic governor, Pennsylvania, Democratic governor.

But yeah those are the those that's the concern there.

And that's where they they can really fuck with things.

And do they do they need this fake 2020 ballot things?

You do that?

Absolutely not.

But it would make sure I'm happy if they found it.

And when he talked with the Fulton County thing, it's not necessarily if they find something and make a big deal of it.

It's the federal government that can do something.

But if the Fulton County elections board is now majority MAGA, then they can just get them to, you know, to put in place restrictions, controls, whatever it may be, which they will.

Yeah.

And so people understand Fulton County is where Atlanta is.

Yes.

This is where the overwhelming majority of Democratic votes are.

And so if you were able to reduce turnout in Atlanta through a series of things that you can do, they can be explicit like changing voting procedures.

It can be but also as implicit and devious as reducing the number of machines in certain precincts so that the lines are too long for people to vote, etc.

Then that really would really hurt John, John Alsace chances to win if he can't count on a huge chunk.

The same chunk of votes that he's gotten, Warnark's gotten, and Joe Biden got in 2020 out of Fulton County.

I've been wondering about the Tulsi angle as well.

The wise, the director, and he's talking about foreign governments in that interview, foreign governments.

There's some cheating interference.

I hadn't realized because when I was going down the rabbit hole on the executive order to seize the voting machines from 2020,

I realized that one of the orders that he was going to use as justification or thought about using as justification to seize the machines is about foreign election interference.

And it was basically saying if there's evidence of foreign interference, then A, it authorizes him to levy economic sanctions on the country, but also to somehow seize the voting machines to look at them for national security reasons because they have been attacked somehow by foreign governments.

So I do think that's the Tulsi angle.

Yeah, once again, not a master plan here in the sense that most of right-wing big lies stop the steel world is so fucked up in the head of a Venezuelan was involved in this and they thought Chavez was doing this from the grave at one point.

There's a lot of speculation online that a Maduro is going to cut a plea agreement by copying to some sort of Venezuelan experience.

We know that, even though this is not foreign interference, but that we know that the Tulsi Gabor was investigating some conspiracy in Puerto Rico connected to Venezuela.

Like this is, like we are so far through the looking glass of insanity with the things that is guiding this conversation that it, like that it all comes back to this international stuff.

And like they would love after Russia, Russia, Russia to have some that make this argument that no, it was actually Venezuela or Cuba or some other country that interfered with our elections that caused Trump the office.

One other on this topic before we go, one other scoop that crooked media got Matt Berg again just crushing it.

Nevada Secretary of State, Cisco Aguiar from Nevada, so he talked to Matt and told him that Aguiar and basically all the secretaries of state got an email from the FBI organizing a call in a couple of weeks with all the various agencies in the federal government to talk about election security.

And Aguiar told Matt, I was just like, this is the strangest thing in the world that the FBI is reaching out to us and trying to coordinate election security, it has never happened in the past.

The casualness with which they did is just beyond crazy. And Matt got a hold of the email and it is just like, hey everyone, hey every secretary of state, this is the FBI reaching out, we're going to do a call soon.

What? Like in this Trump administration, especially in this poorly run FBI, that can be one of two things.

It could be some fucking doofus organizing a grand conspiracy election or it could be the ones soon to be fired well-meaning bureaucrat in the department who wants to actually secure our elections.

You just never know.

Or both, the person gets fired and they're like, wait, I have an idea now.

So, you know, something to keep an eye on. But I think too big for everyone listening, too big to rig.

Unless you're a Democratic official, then, you know, make sure that you let's start talking tough.

If you start talking, if you move, yeah, you have you have some state troopers, you get some national guard, if I can use it.

All right.

Let's talk about just thinking about that for a second.

Oh, that's, you know, it's going to be too late.

Once we're in the election, we're like, oh, how do the voting machines get stolen?

And the ballots are gone.

Now what are we going to do?

Pod Save Blue America coming to you in 2027 after the Civil War starts, you know.

All right. Let's talk about the latest with Trump's invasion of Minnesota.

So, borders are Tom Homan announced this week that 700 Department of Homeland Security officers will be leaving Minneapolis.

That leaves about 2,000 in place.

And the way the White House is thinking about the mass deportation campaign doesn't seem to have changed very much at all.

Trump and Tom Yama said NBC talked about this a lot in the interview.

Here's a sampling.

I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a soft to touch, but you still have to be tough.

I'm not happy with the two incidents.

It's not, you know, it's both of them.

Not one or the other.

He was not an angel and she was not an angel.

You know, you look at some tapes from back, but still, I'm not happy with what happened.

Nobody could be happy and ice wasn't happy either.

Two people. It's bad. I hate it.

I hate even talking about it.

Two people out of tens of thousands, okay?

And you get paid publicity.

Nobody talks about all of the murderers that were taken out of our country.

They don't talk about...

But it was two Americans.

They don't talk about we have the smallest trucks.

As an example, we've been very tough on the waters and soon, you know, pretty much overall.

But if you look at the waters where we knock out boats...

Think of all the people, think of all the Americans.

Ice agents haven't killed.

Why aren't we getting publicity for that?

You kill two Americans and suddenly everyone's up your ass.

Just complaining about this and that.

But think of how many boats we've blown up.

Isn't that cool?

Think of how many potentially innocent people we executed on the high seas.

I would do that same journey with Tamiyama's in real time, which was the waters.

The waters.

Very tough on the waters.

Well, you don't know if he's going to talk about how he saved Los Angeles

by turning on the water in Northern California so it could come down the map.

Or the shower heads.

Yeah, in the shower heads.

There's a lot of waters.

This whole list of wooden flushes, you just don't know.

This is a man focused on water.

You've been very tough on the waters.

But you know, what he's trying to do there, of course, is the message.

And you see this from Stephen Miller and JD Vance and all the rest from on Twitter.

All they do is they're like, you know, we don't hear the Democrats showing any sympathy

or remembering the people that undocumented immigrants have murdered.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Yes, people who murder other people should be arrested.

And if eligible for deportation deported and if not thrown in jail after a trial, that's America.

Welcome.

Yeah, like it's totally unconnected to ICE agents shooting two American citizens in the street

and then the administration lying about the incidents for the world to say.

You think that Trump's answer there?

That's the right messaging for a national TV audience that will be watching the full interview during the Super Bowl.

Yeah, are they going to air the full interview?

Well, everyone kept saying it's the Super Bowl.

Is it like during the Super Bowl?

Is it before?

It's it is.

I mean, John, we only did this for eight years.

It is.

It airs in the pregame long before the Super Bowl.

Usually before he was even started.

This is the one that you advised Joe Biden not to do.

I was just thinking that it had been two years since that debate.

Two years since that.

And I guess no one did one last year because I guess Trump did one last year?

I don't remember.

No, I do.

Who knew anyway?

But this year, if you tune in before the Super Bowl begins.

If you're just milling out.

If you're not your Super Bowl squares, you are waiting in line to get access to the six foot sub or the wings.

And do you just hear Trump say that two people who were murdered,

who the vast majority of Americans think were unjustly killed, were no angels.

No angels in fairness.

They were no angels.

I hate that they died.

In fairness to who?

In fairness to who?

In fairness to who?

Yeah, right.

Yeah, just.

Oh, my God.

Trump also said on Thursday that he's definitely not going to fire Christy Nome.

And Republicans in Congress don't seem very open to even modest reforms to reign in DHS and ICE.

Democrats sent Republicans a list of 10 demands this week that include banning masking, racial profiling,

military style weapons, and raids near schools and daycare centers.

They also want to require body cams and ensure better conditions and congressional oversight at detention facilities.

They also want to ensure that you go find a warrant before you arrest someone, wild idea,

or before you break into someone's home.

Usually they think that's a crazy, extremist idea from the Democrats.

But then, again, lead negotiator for the Senate Republicans, Katie Britt, called the letter,

quote, political posturing, and quote, a ridiculous Christmas list of demands for the press.

A reminder that there's a two week clock on these negotiations before the Department of Homeland Security either shuts down

or gets funded at current levels.

What's the best play for Democrats here?

Democrats have to recognize that the American people are on their side here.

And it's not just Democrats, it's not just independence.

You have a quarter of Republicans who believe in a recent data for progress, Paul, that

I should not be funded without real guardrails on what, on what ICE is doing.

And so I do think they have to narrow that list.

And so one recognize that you have, you have the political high ground here.

You have limited legislative leverage, like we should be very clear, but you don't have the political high ground.

And I think that you should narrow that list to three, maybe four, very popular, easy to understand, very substantial guardrails.

I would, all night list, I would include no masks, body cams.

I know Chrissy knows said she was going to put in body cams.

So let's have a law about it.

And that law should contain, as Janet Miller said to me, in our interview,

like requirements to make sure that footage is saved for transparency.

Number three, independent transparent investigations into the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretty.

And number four is warrants.

A judicial warrant.

Warrants is at the very top of the list for me.

Really, this is more than masks.

Yeah.

And then I guess the fifth thing, if I was going to a fifth thing, is to ensure that ICE and CBP

have to operate with the same use of force and other standards as the rest of federal law enforcement, including the FBI.

Yeah.

Like those are very simple, very popular things that would make a difference.

Like I saw all of the problems with ICE, far from it.

It's not going to abolish ICE or anything like that.

But if you could get those, or some of those, it would make a difference.

And that is a position of strength to argue from.

Yeah, I think if you're going for something that every American understands,

banning warrantless arrests, I think that'll, I think that'll get people going.

Yeah.

Because John Thune today, he basically agreed with Katie Brett that like,

oh, these demands aren't serious.

And he's like, well, if you know the Department of Homeland Security shuts down,

then that means TSA will shut down.

We could have some of those travel problems.

And it's like, you know, if you want to sell people, your plane is delayed.

Your flight is canceled because Donald Trump refuses to require ICE agents to get a warrant

before they arrest you or break into your home.

I think you could probably win that battle.

I will be bringing this up to you in about a week when we're flying home from Australia.

To see how you feel if our flight is canceled.

You know, there's just extra time in Australia.

Yes.

I mean, I do feel like at some point that's going to happen, right?

They're not going to agree to this shit.

Yeah.

They're just not.

And so we're going to head to a shutdown.

And then it's going to be who is, who feels more pressure about the fact that there are flight delays.

Right?

Is that where we're headed?

Yeah.

I mean, the Republicans did like the fact that they agreed to this in the first place

suggested they feel real political vulnerability here.

Now, the attention is starting to focus elsewhere.

There's less attention on Minnesota.

There's, you know, they sort of pulled the, we're deescalating bullshit.

And like attention turned the narrative switched a little bit.

But they're still in a really bad place here on immigration and ICE.

It's a huge vulnerability for them.

Like, both sides are talking tough right now.

The question is, like, nothing is going to resolve in the next however many days we have left here.

The question is, can you do another short term extension to keep negotiating another couple of weeks?

Like, I think that would be a very reasonable thing for Democrats to do.

These are big changes and just to think that you're going to get them done in like 10 days.

It's hard to imagine.

But, you know, maybe, maybe you get another short term extension.

I don't know that they're probably, I'm not sure they're probably going to want this fight as much as they'd like Democrats to think they want this fight.

I think that's true.

I wonder if Democrats have this stomach and are ready strategically when the shutdown happens, if and when the shutdown happens, to go out there and stick with the fight.

Because I just, you got it, like, you know, we're right back to ACA subsidies, which by the way, negotiations over the ACA extensions are over.

Yeah.

So there will be no ACA extension at all.

Even though Republicans felt like maybe they, you know, felt a little pressure.

But once again, news moved on.

And so they feel like they can get away with it.

I mean, news moved on.

The American people did not move on.

Correct.

So they're going to, they will pay, they will pay a stiff price for this one in the fall.

I think the question is not, do Democrat, like we can say, do Democrats have the right communications plan?

Are they going to be able to do all the right things?

I think they did a pretty good job during the last shutdown.

The question is, are those Democrats who reopen the government?

What's their stomach?

Yeah.

Right.

Like that is the question.

Because I think the vast majority of Democrats will go up in the house, definitely in the house.

And certainly in the Senate will go to the mattresses on this.

It's that last group there that you have to worry about.

And I just don't know where they, where they will come down on this since they were so willing to fold, you know, back in December or November, I guess that was.

Just to give everyone an idea of what a nightmare DHS is right now.

There's a story of the caught eye this week about DHS lawyer Julie Lee, who had been detailed to the US attorney's office in Minnesota from the Department of Homeland Security.

On Tuesday, a judge pressed her on why ice violates so many court orders.

And according to courtroom transcripts, we responded, the system sucks, this job sucks.

And I'm trying with every breath that I have so that I can get you what you need.

And sometimes I wish you would just hold me in contempt, your honor, so that I can have a full 24 hours of sleep.

She also said, quote, I am not white as you can see.

And my family is at risk as any other people that might get picked up.

Her family came from Vietnam.

Lee told the judge she'd already tried to quit, but that they can't find her a placement for her.

And that she'd even taken to emailing ice officials in 24 point font to try to get their attention, mostly unsuccessfully.

Lee has now reportedly been taken off the Minnesota assignment and is back at DHS headquarters in Washington.

Wild story, it also comes from there was a political story about how overwhelmed prosecutors are everywhere, but especially in Minnesota.

Trying to deal with the legal fallout from what ice is doing, particularly basically everyone that DHS picks up, rounds up whether you're legal resident, whether you're an asylum seeker who is legally supposed to be here.

Whether you are an undocumented immigrant, they all, they file habeas petitions.

You have the right to file a habeas petition, meaning like, why have you put me in jail?

And you've got, you know, the government has to have a reason.

And every one of these habeas petitions then goes to trial, or at least has some kind of a hearing, not a trial, but hearing.

And there's just too many.

There's too many for the courts.

There's too many for the prosecutors that they have.

There's just too many.

And so all these prosecutors, paralegals, everyone working around the clock.

And ice is so irresponsible that they are just, they're not responding.

They're not cooperating.

They're not doing anything.

They're just a fucking rogue agency.

That's what they are.

Yeah, it seems suboptimal.

The system is not set up for this level of nasty deportation.

Even if ice was doing everything right, they were crossing the ice, dotting the teas,

then just processing this number of people, having these number of hearings, would stress the system.

But the fact that you have an incompetent rogue agency, that it's just sweeping up people,

because of their accent, because of the color of their skin, because they looked at an officer the wrong way,

means you get a lot of people who are being detained, who shouldn't be detained.

And for good reason, but tremendous pressure on the government to respond to these habeas petitions,

because there is a person in a detention center who maybe shouldn't be there.

And this is what the courts are for, and it can't operate with this level of incompetence

and disregard for the law and human decency that you're seeing from ice.

And by the way, it's probably incompetence as you get down the food chain there

to like random ice agents at DHS.

But it is also a pretty intentional strategy on behalf of Stephen Miller and the people who are running the show,

because what they're doing is they're rounding people up, they're putting them in these detention centers,

which are just under horrific conditions.

Many of the detention centers they put you in, if you're rounded up or not in your home state or your city,

but in Texas or somewhere far, far away.

And what they're telling people once they get them there is, yeah, you can file your habeas petition

and you can wait for your hearing in this horrific detention center under these awful conditions.

Or you can sign this piece of paper right now and we'll just deport you.

And you can wave your right to a hearing.

And so for a lot of these folks, they don't know if they're going to be successful at their hearing

and maybe they need medical care, maybe they want to be back with their families,

maybe they have young children, and so they feel this pressure to sign the document

to then be deported as opposed to waiting for the habeas hearing.

And this is like Miller strategy to try to get as many people deported as possible.

Yeah, I mean, this has always been true of Trump and the people around him,

which is it is a stunning combination of incompetence and malevolence.

Did you check out that Wall Street Journal story about Stephen Miller?

Did a big profile with Stephen Miller?

I did, I did.

I was going to send it to you, but I was like, there's just no way John hasn't read this yet.

I mean, there's a couple of points.

First of all, it's interesting that Donald Trump is maybe starting to realize

that Stephen Miller is causing him some political problems.

It says in one paragraph, Trump told advisors he isn't comfortable with how far Miller has gone on some fronts.

He's mad that business officials were calling to complain about getting their workers rounded up.

And then at one point, he sees Miller on TV talking about Venezuela

and Trump talked to AIDS nearby and he said, why is he on TV?

He doesn't do foreign policy. Why is he talking?

He doesn't talk about foreign policy.

So Trump, so there's a little, you know, maybe Stephen Miller is going too far.

But like some of the stories about that guy and these are all from White House officials,

they're who are sourced in the story, that he basically decided to label Renega domestic terrorist

and Alex Freddie and assassin without any approval or review from anyone else in the administration

after Alex Freddie was murdered.

Stephen Miller was just texting directly with border patrol agents on the ground

and then it went from the text from the border patrol agents to Miller to Twitter calling him an assassin.

That's it. That was the whole process.

Not a good process apparently, because he was the one who suggested the insurrection act.

Apparently in Minneapolis, he was the one, so apparently after Renega was killed,

there was this debate in the White House, like, should we just withdraw from Minnesota

or at least draw down the agents there because like things are getting out of control?

And Miller was like, no, we got to send in more. We got to double down.

He's the fucking cancer at the heart of the administration in the country. He really is.

Like, he's a deeply dangerous individual who is obviously a huge narcissist,

but also a mechlemaniac with very, very...

I don't even know if disturbing is a strong enough word.

He's a set of odious views about the world that are like as white nationalists as it can possibly be.

Like, he has a very explicit project about making this country wider.

Yep. Like that is what he wants to do.

And look, none of that is going to convince Donald Trump ever to get rid of him.

But Republicans do poorly in the midterms. Stephen Miller's fault.

Everyone, it is... Donald Trump can look around and realize that he lost Congress

or lost one or both houses of Congress. If that happens, it is Stephen Miller...

Stephen Miller is probably more responsible for that than anyone else around him, I would say.

And you knew who will get fired? Christy now.

Yeah. Maybe. Maybe.

There is... I mean, this is, like, such nerdy old people political talk,

but there is a lot of... Like, these are imperfect historical analogies.

I don't want to stipulate that. But immigration is becoming to Trump in 2026.

Immigration in Iceland, I think, that is becoming to Trump in 2026.

What Iraq was to George Bush in 2006.

And people were telling him...

You don't have to be talking about...

Exactly. Like, that is exactly right, which is...

They refused to fire the people responsible, or at least make a firing to acknowledge

that even if it's just purely symbolic, that something is going to change

and they don't do it until afterwards, because they're so afraid of admitting failure

or weakness that they make their political problems much worse.

Yeah.

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One last thing on immigration here.

JD Vance did an interview with the Daily Mail.

Not sure why.

Where he got this question.

Have you apologized?

Did you plan to apologize to the family of Alex Brady?

For what?

For, you know, labeling him an assassin with ill intent.

Well, again, I just described to you what I said about Alex Brady,

which is that he's a guy who showed up with ill intent to an ice project.

No, but if it is determined that his civil rights were violated by this FBI investigation,

will you apologize?

So, if this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical leads to another hypothetical,

it's a real case of what we like to do.

And again, like I said, we're going to let the investigation determine.

We're going to let the actual law come to the surface.

And figure out what happened?

For what?

For what?

What I said about Alex Brady is that he showed up with an intent.

First of all, no, he didn't.

Second of all, you can't know what his intent was.

Third of all, you called him an assassin.

Or Steven Miller called him an assassin.

You retweeted Steven Miller.

Still up on your Twitter feed.

You called Renee Goodard domestic terrorist.

You called Renee Goodard domestic terrorist.

No.

So maybe you apologize for that.

I thought you were a Catholic.

No.

No.

Don't feel as a Christian that perhaps sometimes you make mistakes,

that you're fallible.

He's so fucking smug.

It's the smugness that just takes it to a whole new level for me with him.

He is the most obnoxious, high school debate nerd you could ever possibly meet.

Oh, so this hypothetical leads to that hypothetical.

The way he just uses nonsense logic to run circles around these reporters,

or at least get out of answering questions is incredibly frustrating.

But he is missing something fundamentally human.

Donald Trump is also missing it.

But he just, he can't, like there is no shame.

There is no guilt.

Like you said, he's Catholic.

He certainly didn't get the guilt part that comes with that.

There is no inherent decency.

I couldn't, like, I just can't imagine saying something like that about someone

and feeling no obligation to the family, to yourself, to your family, to correct that publicly.

Instead, just to stand by it because you've been convinced that to admit failure,

or to admit being wrong, is weakness and treason in Magerold.

And that is a really, that is stupid politically.

But it's a really toxic way to go through life.

Yeah, he really combines like the smugness of the most annoying coastal elite,

you know, with the soul of Stephen Miller, with the charisma of a shoe.

That is, that is JD Vance.

Presidential candidate for in 2020.

A shoe has neutral charisma.

Like, it is something much worse than that.

You know, like we, you know, everyone missed Trump in 16.

You know, Trump could never be present.

But people thought like Trump could ever be present because they thought,

oh, he was too offensive for America.

It's not that JD Vance is too offensive or too extreme.

It is that he is like so fucking smug and just devoid of charisma.

Like, I don't know, man.

Who knows?

Who knows in this country?

But he does not have what Trump had.

No, of course not.

Like not even close.

I don't even think you see.

I think Ron DeSantis looks better than him.

Maybe.

Right.

That's the tough one.

That's the tough one.

I think he probably is a little more deaf than Ron DeSantis,

but I think he's more odious.

Yeah.

More repulsive than Ron DeSantis.

For sure.

Yeah, more repulsive.

Look, I have a lot of thoughts about this.

This is coming.

Maybe you are newbie next week, depending on how my long flights go.

That's coming in message box soon.

Is I have a lot of thoughts about JD Vance,

what we should be doing right now, to frame JD Vance

because we have this advantage as Democrats.

I feel like we're trying every week here, Dan.

We are.

I mean, I'm trying to take what we're doing here

and move it out to the rest of the world

and also maybe focus what we're doing.

Good.

Maybe be motivated by strategy, not just pure,

unilaterated rage.

But JD Vance is going to be the Republican nominee.

There's almost no history of a sitting vice president

not getting the nomination.

Will he have to fight for it?

Will he get a primary?

Probably.

But he's probably going to be the nominee.

So we have another three years to shape his public image.

And we're probably going to do this very successfully with Al Gore

from 1996 to 2000 by the point where everyone thought

that Al Gore, this famous Boy Scout,

was now this inventor at Lyre who made up things

about inventing the internet and was corrupt in all these ways.

JD Vance, we just have to let people see who he is.

But he does not have any of the charisma or cool factor

I know that that's gross to say about Trump.

But Trump has something that powered his rise

that JD Vance does not have.

And we can be weaponized against him.

He's a smug weirdo who probably only appeals to in cells.

How's that?

Test that one.

If I hear...

No one better...

That's a stage structure.

That's a stage structure.

That's a stage structure.

I don't want to hear someone coming down from the top of the mountain

with the tablet saying, the message says the JD Vance is in line

with the oligarchs and he's going to work in people.

I don't want to hear that shit.

It's a riddish fucking smug and weird.

He's an odious individual.

That's the message.

All the other stuff is right, but that's the message.

He's out there doing a bunch of media.

He also did a sit down with Megan Kelly,

speaking of people we love,

where he brought up Trump's attack on Caitlin Collins earlier in the week.

We will play that for you first in case you haven't seen

the Trump attack on Caitlin Collins.

Let's watch.

You know she's a young woman.

I don't think I've ever seen you smile.

I've known you for 10 years.

I don't think I've ever seen a smile in your face.

You know why you're not smiling?

Because you know you're not telling the truth.

No, she was trying to say she wasn't smiling

because she was asking about survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse

of underage girls.

That's what she was asking about a couple times when he did that.

But here's what the vice president had to say about it.

She's asking a question of the president says,

why don't you ever smile?

It's actually like so perceptive.

Even if you're asking a tough question,

even if you take your job very seriously,

why does it always have to be so antagonistic?

Well, I laugh because I saw online everybody's calling him sexist for saying that.

I literally said the same thing about Caitlin Collins a year ago on my show.

She never smiles.

Every once in a while you have to smile, right?

You have to smile.

Roger Eels used to tell us that.

Every once in a while you get a remember smile.

I bet he did.

I bet Roger Eels did tell them to smile in a whole bunch of other things

that they have alleged in court documents.

I mean, this goes back to the earlier point.

But like to understand,

JD Vance has understood him as someone who is an empty vessel for ambition.

He just wants power and he'll do anything.

If he has to be against Trump,

he'll be against Trump.

He has to be for Trump before Trump.

You and I have debated about how much he actually believes this stuff.

I think he does, but it's not that he didn't hear nor there.

But I think the lesson he's taken from Trump is that the path to political power in America

is to be an unapologetic asshole.

And maybe you can get away.

Trump has got away with that.

But Trump has like a showman like appeal, right,

that works for him that JD Vance does not have.

So he's just an asshole.

He's not a funny asshole.

But again, once again, right there,

he added the smugness to of like a of the most annoying pundit

because he did punditry about Trump.

It wasn't just like,

I agree with what Trump said, right,

which would have been bad enough.

It was like, and if you actually look, it's so perceptive.

It was so perceptive to just scream at a female reporter

that she should smile more while she's asking about victims of sexual abuse.

So perceptive.

He's like, he sucks.

He sucks.

He sucks.

Yeah.

He's approverating. He's not great.

He's like.

He was like, they were asking young college Republicans who were like,

you know, as extreme as they get these days,

college Republicans.

And he's like 18 points underwater with college Republicans.

Uh, these are supposed, you know, he's supposed to be like

the young next generation leader of the party.

Not.

He is not.

He's not going to appeal to young Republicans.

I mean, Sarah Longwell has put it out in multiple occasions.

It's just how poor he does.

And focus groups with young Republicans.

And also she said on Twitter recently that, uh,

uh, and focus groups of women.

JD Vance gives consistently gives them the Ick.

Sarah's words.

Um, he, like he has real.

And then, you know, people like Clavicular think that, you know, Gavin Newsom,

Mogzen.

Yes.

He's very, he's very muggable.

Yes.

That's his problem.

That's the way to use it.

I have no idea.

I honestly have no idea.

Yeah.

No.

Austin shaking his head.

No.

Anyway, while we're talking about the assault on the free press,

we should mention what Jeff Bezos.

Uh, another person we love, uh, did to the Washington Post this week.

On Wednesday, the post laid off about a third of its employees.

Uh, the sports and book sections were eliminated.

The metro section and international coverage were also hit hard.

A lot of incredible journalists, including guests we've had across all of our crooked pods,

lost their jobs, um, adding insult to injury,

neither Bezos or Will Lewis.

The publisher Bezos appointed in 2023 had the balls to log on to the Zoom,

uh, where the layoffs were announced.

Uh, this is according to Ashley Parker, our, our, our pal Ashley,

who's a former post journalist now at the Atlantic.

Um, meanwhile, uh, this is what Jeff Bezos has been up to lately.

On Monday, he welcomed Pete Hegseth at his, uh,

Blue Origin Rocket facility afterwards writing to Hegseth on Twitter,

huge honor to have you at Blue Origin today.

Lovely.

And of course, uh, Amazon also sank around $75 million dollars into the Melania dock.

That's $40 million for the licensing rights, $35 million for marketing,

which you know, they're, they're, they hit $8 million so far.

So, uh, so close to making that money back.

Um, I know you wrote about all this, uh, uh,

what happened at the post this week in Thursday's message box.

So the floor is your stand.

I'm going to rant for a minute.

So I'm going to apologize to everyone in advance.

But we talk all the time.

I write all the time about the declining relevance

of legacy media institutions and how the economics of big media have gotten so hard.

And so like some of the things like this should not feel like unexpected.

But I think this is an absolute tragedy.

It did not need to happen.

There are, at the, on the day in which the post announces layoffs in New York times,

announced that they had gained more than a million digital subscribers since 2025.

And the revenue was up 10% year over year.

The Wall Street Journal is, uh, remains strong.

They've been growing.

They've been adding subscribers.

The post is, uh, is our other national newspaper.

They could have had a very similar path.

Maybe they couldn't be the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal,

who had very specific business models.

But they absolutely could succeed it.

And they didn't succeed for two reasons.

The first is that Jeff Bezos hired Wool Lewis,

who is an absolute doofus from, he worked in the British tabloids.

He immediately showed up.

He was enmeshed in the phone hacking scandal in, in the UK.

Lied about it.

Lost the newsroom.

Never had a plan.

Didn't seem particularly interested in executing a plan.

Had no real attempt to actually save the paper.

It did not seem to care about the paper.

But the biggest reason is Jeff Bezos.

Because when he bought it in 2013 for $250 million,

which is fucking couch cushion money for him,

he was heralded as like a savior of a great journalistic institution.

He put money into it.

He, you know, was sort of like,

he was treated as a savior and someone who, like,

one of the old media barons, like, who was,

through their generosity was supporting this important institution

and the fourth state and all of that.

And then around 2024, he realized that the Washington,

owning the Washington Post a paper that Donald Trump hated

was now going to be bad for business for him.

It was going to make him less filthy rich, slightly less filthy rich.

It would make his companies, here's the successful companies,

slightly less successful.

And so he made a couple of decisions that basically torpedoed the paper.

The first was he canceled personally,

canceled the paper's plan endorsement of Kamala Harris in 2024.

That caused thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of people

to cancel their subscriptions.

And then in 2025, he announced that the Washington Post

editorial page was no longer, was going to change in a way

to make it less likely to anger Trump.

It was going to stop doing politics the whole day.

It was just ridiculous.

It was a naked point.

And in doing those things,

they lost hundreds of thousands of subscribers.

They could not afford to lose.

And it's completely lit on fire.

The trust the paper had built over many, many decades with their audience.

And it is, it is absolutely trashy.

I like, I care about this a lot because I went to college in DC.

I've read the post forever.

It is not just a great political newspaper

that covers Washington, although they do a great job of that.

It has one of the,

one of the all time great sports sections in any paper ever.

Right. Tony Cornheyser, Michael Wilbond, Sally Jenkins wrote there,

covered everything.

The metro section, people don't remember this,

but the Watergate started as a metro section story.

Like the way that, because I lived in Z for a very long time,

there is the town of DC, had to at Mark Lee Bavitch,

which is the political stuff.

And there's the city.

Right.

And but everything else is happening there.

What's happening in the government, what's happening in the suburbs,

and the metro section, cover that.

The style section was incredible.

You remember the profiles, the politicians by our friend Mark Lee Bavitch

and Data Bill Bank and others who wrote those.

You know, they're a great columnist.

The political reporters there, like Dan Balls and David Broder

and people like that.

And that was all destroyed because a man worth a quarter trillion dollars

couldn't be bothered to try to save the paper

and thought it'd be better for himself to let it die on a vine.

And what's left, like maybe they can bring it back

in some way she performed,

but right now what's left is the rotting husk of it.

But right now what's left is the rotting husk of a great journalism

institution.

And everyone in DC and in the country are poorer because of it.

Everyone except Jeff Bezos.

And look, like some of it definitely is just, you know,

I don't want to piss Trump off.

And, you know, Amazon has contracts with the government.

And if the government, you know, Trump turns on Bezos,

what's going to happen, all that bullshit?

Some of it's also, I think, with Jeff Bezos,

is like, he's just another fucking rich guy that thinks

his niche political views and the views of the people he

surrounds himself with are the views of most Americans.

And so you get this sort of like center,

right wall streety Silicon Valley kind of sensibility

that sort of took over the paper,

at least in the editorial section.

And it's just, you know, these fucking billionaires.

They're just, they think that they're told, yes,

they're surrounded by people who share their views.

They all bitch about this and that and politics.

And they just, they are rich enough to buy these toys

and then treat them like toys and break them and not really care.

And I saw some people say, like, well, you know,

all these subscribers that quit after the canceled editorial

endorsement of Kamala Harris, like bear some responsibility as well.

Like, why do you stop your subscription

when there's so much other great reporting,

who cares about the editorial board?

And like, I get that.

But it's also like the end of the day,

you're selling a product to the customer.

And if you piss the customer off

and they don't buy the product anymore, that's your fault.

Yes, 100%.

Like, you can blame the customer for sure.

But like, that's your, you're the one who,

you're the one who caused them to leave with your decision.

I think to the extent there is a larger lesson here.

It is, you know, we have talked for a long time

about the absolute essential need of building up

a progressive pro-democracy media ecosystem.

And over the many years,

and I have been to one gazillion meetings,

you know, fundraising meetings, pitches about this

with everyone in the Democratic Party.

And a lot of what you hear is,

we need our billionaires to come in and support progressive media.

And you do need that.

Like, you need support to do it.

But the, but what a billionaire can give,

they can also take away.

And so what you need here is,

we're not going to be able to build up a competing ecosystem

to Fox News and Breitbart and Daily Wire and all the rest.

Simply by a handful of Democratic billionaires

giving money to progressive conservators and media people,

you have to build sustainable businesses.

That's the only way that independent media will work.

And like, that is, and you know this,

you are running a large media company

in message box and running a much smaller little media company.

But like that is it.

If you are depending on what are equivalently charitable donations

from foundations and individuals,

that can last you for a while,

but one day that's going to go away.

Yep.

Either because the billionaire changes their mind,

the economy changes or whatever it is.

And so it has to be a sustainable business,

which is why the beginning of this podcast,

you made the request that people subscribe to Friends of the Pod

because that is one of the ways in which we make crooked media

a sustainable business.

That's one of the reasons why I'm constantly bothered people

to subscribe to message box because it's one of the ways in which

can continue to do it.

Because I'm not depending on anything other.

I'm trying to build products that people want and will pay for

so that we can make more of those products,

which we believe is good for democracy and good for our messaging.

That's exactly right.

It's because it's not just to sustain us now,

but it's to grow.

It's because we want to make sure

how many fucking journalists are out of a job right now, right?

And like, we desperately need more reporting.

And I'm going to even, like, just,

it's not even about like opinion reporting at this point

or opinion journalism or a punditry or analysis.

Like, we just need people out there doing reporting.

I mean, some of the people that were laid off from the post,

they were in war zones in Ukraine.

They fired, they post reporter while she was in a war zone.

I mean, it's like we are heading into the pool.

By email, they fired her by email.

Be very clear.

We've been dealing with, you know, misinformation

and this, like, difficulty and figuring out,

like, a shared reality.

We are now, it's going to be supercharged by artificial intelligence.

And it is not the time to have less reporting.

You know, because pretty soon,

people aren't going to know what to believe at all.

And reporting helps us do that.

So, you know, I know that some people,

you see some, and a lot of right wingers and mega people

and just like annoying pundits are like,

oh, it's a business.

And a business failed.

And, you know, you don't need to cry over it.

It's like, find whatever, but like, you need,

journalism is valuable for democracy.

Reporting is valuable for a democracy.

If we want to live in a world where we have good information

where we know what's going on and we can make decisions

based on good information about how we live together,

like, you need journalism for that.

So.

It is true that some media businesses are doomed to fail

because of the changing economics.

And we can talk for a long time about what has happened

with social media platforms and advertising and now AI.

But the Washington Post was not one of those.

The Washington Post had a clear path to sustainability

and they did not go down that path

because Jeff Bezos did not take them down that path.

That's right.

That's right.

All right.

When we come back, you'll hear Dan's interview

with main governor, Janet Mills.

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Hey, love it or leave it listeners.

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Here to tell you that I'm coming back to Washington, DC

for love it or leave it live.

It'll link in theater on April 23rd.

That's right.

Spring in DC is all about cherry blossoms

and love it or leave it bringing you a stack lineup of guests.

That's what makes it America's number one late night gay live

comedy political podcast.

We're so excited to be back in DC.

It's a tradition now that we come around the time of the car

response and even though the car response center

really no longer has comedians.

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mind melder.

Yes, a magician.

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Joining us now is the governor of Maine and a candidate for US Senate,

Janet Mills.

Governor Mills, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Good to see you.

Good to be here.

Okay.

So there has been in recent weeks so much attention,

understandably so on what's been happening with ice in Minnesota.

But at the same time, my ice has been in your state.

And I've seen some of the videos and they seem quite terrifying

to lots of your residents.

Can you tell us what that experience was like with ice in your state

and what's happening with ice right now in Maine?

Sure.

Thanks for question.

Listen, we heard three weeks ago that ice was looking for a staging area.

So we got word.

They might be coming.

The cavalry are coming.

And we started preparing.

And I said, I made a public announcement that, listen,

if they were sending ice agents with those provocative and violent behaviors

that they showed us in Minneapolis and elsewhere that they weren't welcome here.

Well, they came and we kept an eye on things.

We worked with local law enforcement and state law enforcement and with local organizations

to keep track of what they were doing and where they were doing it.

And so for about a full week, they began, well, first of all,

they announced they were making this operation and calling it catch of the day.

Operating, catch of the day, which is about as insulting as you get.

I mean, it was not a fishing derby.

It involved real human beings being taken violently from their cars,

taken from workplaces and schools and from their families and homes,

and taking, God knows where, one state to another state to another state.

And they said they had a target of 1,400 people they wanted to take into custody.

1,400 people, well, these aren't the worst of the worst.

Let me tell you right now.

And what we saw happening on the streets,

apportland and loisland and bitterwood main, was not anything to do with the worst of the worst.

We saw people with no criminal backgrounds, no criminal charges being hauled from cars,

being hauled from their homes and taken into custody and kind of disappearing.

Disappearing. And that included a civil engineer who was here at a construction job.

It included two law enforcement agents, two corrections officers and two different counties

who were snatched from their cars and their cars left running in the street.

So the local sheriff said, this is a botched operation.

This is bush league policing, bush league law enforcement.

So that's what we saw. Has it subsided?

Well, we've heard a couple more reports yesterday of people being taken

and by unidentified officers, unidentified people.

That's disturbing.

Susan Collins made an announcement that the enhanced ICE operation had ceased.

We have yet to have confirmed the confirmation of that.

But the point is, why did it happen in the first place?

Seriously, catch of the day.

Why did she not know it was coming in the first place?

Why didn't she stop it in the first place?

Stop people with no criminal charges being taken from their families,

snatched from the state of Maine.

And so now I'm working with local authorities and organizations

to identify exactly who has been disappeared.

They claim they took 206 people.

Who are they? Where are they now?

Under what legal status are they now?

What warrants were used? We haven't seen any yet.

And identify how people can be reunited with their families

and get back to work and contribute to their communities.

As you pointed out, Susan Collins announced on Twitter, I think,

that the operation was over and claimed credit for it.

This is, I imagine, sort of how she's going to run for re-election in the state

to try to show independence of some kind from Trump or show influence with Trump.

But you say you have no evidence that the operation has...

These extra ICE officers have left for anything like that. Is that correct?

Yeah, fewer reports of kidnappings and whatnot.

Fewer reports of people disappearing from their cars and homes.

That's true. But who knows when it restarted tomorrow?

They gave us very little warning that it was happening in the first place.

And we've demanded answers. The Attorney General and I wrote a letter last Friday to Christine Ohm

and insisted on answers, but who the people are, where they are,

and their legal status and whatnot.

So Susan Collins has the ability to control this behavior

if she wanted to, she has that ability.

But she's been playing these political games for a long time.

And she has voted with Trump, as you know, like 94% of the time.

94%. She's not fooling anybody here by claiming a victory lap.

It's like, they came in. Why did they come in in the first place?

Why didn't you stop them if you had that power?

And she's a person who, you know, supported, voted to confirm Christine Ohm.

Christine Ohm, who has no law enforcement ability or experience

who shouldn't be heading up this agency to begin with?

And, you know, where do the orders come from?

Where do they get these 1,400 targets?

How? We need answers.

So there's a larger conversation about what's going to happen with ICE.

And I think there's two parts of that conversation.

There is what can be done right now, short-term, ultra-impressed president.

And then there's a question of what happens when a Democrat is president

and hopefully has a Senate congressional majority.

Let's start with the first part here.

Over the next week or so, Congress is negotiating over the funding

for the Department of Homeland Security Bill.

Democrats want some set of guardrails in exchange for their votes

to fund that apartment.

You're running for Senate. Seems like a fair question to ask.

What, what would it take if you were in the Senate right now?

What sort of guardrails would you need for your vote to keep the Department funded?

Well, first of all, there shouldn't be $1 more additional funding for ICE,

the DHS, without concrete control, substantive controls, reforms

to account for the behavior they've already conducted, already engaged in,

and to prevent such behavior in the future.

Basic training would be a good thing.

Sure, body cams, they've been talking about body cams,

but you got to tell them to turn them on and save the tapes, for instance.

You know, our police officers in Maine, they know how to do that.

They've been trained.

It's sort of simple stupid.

Deescalation techniques, of course.

It sounds like this group has been trained to escalate, not to deescalate.

And, of course, there's no need to be anonymous and unidentified.

If you were a trained police officer under basic standards,

you shouldn't have any problem identifying yourself before you make an arrest,

stop somebody on the street, or tear it to somebody's home or car.

It's basic police procedure, identify yourself.

And so, there are a lot of other concrete things you could do,

but not a dollar more in funding until you account for what's happened.

Have independent investigations into what's already happened.

The people have no confidence in the suggestion that there might be an investigation

into the killing of Alex Prety, or ready good.

This is not happening.

There should be a transparent and independent investigation.

We know how to do that.

I was a attorney general for eight years in Maine.

We did independent investigations into the police use of deadly force.

It's by law and by good public policy in our state and most every state.

We know good law enforcement in this state.

We train them up for 18 weeks minimum in Maine.

And I help teach the courses on Constitution law, Fourth Amendment and such.

They know better than to do it.

The ICE agents have been doing in Maine and other states in recent months.

In our law enforcement agents, they don't have to wear masks.

They know better.

And they don't go out and do a sweep of whole communities based on some artificial quota set

by some political figurehead for no good reason.

Would you require a ban on masks in exchange for your vote?

Sure. I mean, it's sort of simple, fundamental.

Why would any law enforcement agency need to wear masks for fear of retaliation?

Well, what would it be retaliation about if you weren't doing some bad stuff, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that's sort of the point, right?

That's the point of the accountability.

Don't do it in the first place.

You won't worry about retaliation.

All right. Let's talk long term or medium term, I guess.

Your primary opponent, Grand Planner, has called for abolishing ICE.

In a CNN interview, you didn't go that far.

Can you tell me what you would, how, what would you want to see if you were in the Senate?

How to change ICE?

If I'm correct in that you're not for abolishing it.

What does a new reform race look like?

It could end up being abolished.

But first of all, you're going to have accountability, as I mentioned,

investigations into what's going on so far.

And how do you prevent that from happening again?

And for goodness' sakes, when bad things do happen,

you have to coordinate with local and state officials to investigate bad stuff like

the killings of two people in Minneapolis.

We investigate killings here in Maine.

We know how to do that.

And you don't just upscone with the car, the body, the evidence,

and not let local enforcement who know what they're doing investigate bad behavior like that

and violent acts by ICE.

So, require independent investigations into these actions

and prepare for investigations coordinated with state and local officials.

If things continue to happen like that.

That's sort of basic.

Retraining the people who have been hired with these amazing recruitment bonuses

from the Big Bad Bill of last summer.

Retrain them if they've been trained in the first place.

Teach them de-escalation.

It seems like these people have been trained in escalation, not de-escalation.

Make sure they're accountable and obviously identifying themselves.

A lot of nitty-gritty things that would have to be reworked

to hold ICE accountable for what they've done

and let them continue operating in any sense of the word,

but not one dollar more in funding.

And look, then there's the money they've gotten from last summer

to build these detention centers and states across the country.

That's pretty scary too, and that ought to stop.

At the beginning of your answer, you said it could be abolished.

What do you mean by that?

You can't make these basic concrete reforms, these changes.

They can't let them go on doing what they're doing.

Terrorizing neighborhoods and communities and whole cities.

Terrorizing the public safety and people's fundamental constitutional rights, civil rights.

So abolishing ICE is on the table.

Or sometimes it has to just use the slogan,

but moving enforcement to a different part of the government.

But the problem is, if you change the name,

this administration will just create another agency

with a different name, with the same mission,

a very dangerous, violent mission.

You have to stop the violence in whoever's name it's done,

and it's the people given the orders from above

that are the threat to our country.

Right, and theoretically under this scenario

it's a democratic president doing this, right?

Like I don't have any hope

or that, or idea that this would happen under Trump,

but I'm sort of thinking of 2029,

you're in the Senate, and a Senate majority potentially,

we have a Democratic House, we have president,

pick your candidate of choice,

and so it's like what, Democrats do there,

where it's not just, Trump just not renaming it.

It's a democratic decision about how to enforce immigration law

and whether ICE as currently constituted would be part of that.

That's a question.

Yeah.

I guess that's my, I guess I was just surprised to hear you say

abolishing ICE was on the table,

so I just wanted to get to some clarity on that.

If there's no other way to change what's going on right now,

but first and foremost, the Congress right this minute

has the power to withhold further funding,

and the Senate has the power to stand up

at this administration and demand concrete answers,

concrete reforms, changes, and accountability,

and accountability, and that's what must happen.

I think the American people are insisting on that.

Even the Republicans are hearing that voice back home

that things have got to change.

Things have got to change.

And you know what?

It can't just be, oh, let's wait 10 days,

another two weeks, kick the can down the road

like Washington tends to do anyway.

Look at the ACA.

And let's say, oh, let's start a task force

and look at this, a commission,

a blue ribbon, pink ribbon, green ribbon commission.

No way, okay?

People know what's happened.

We don't need to, we don't need to read examinations.

But let's get answers to the questions that were raised

just the other day and those hearings from the brothers

of Renee Good, from other victims of the Minneapolis rampage,

get answers for what happened then and how we can stop it

from continuing first and foremost.

And until that happens, not one dollar more.

In the last couple of days, Trump has said

that he wants to federalize elections

so the federal government take over.

He has doubled and tripled and now quadrupled down on that

in recent days.

Steve Bannon said that he declared that ICE

would be showing up at polling places on election day.

We have the Director of National Intelligence

seizing ballots in Fulton County.

Have you begun thinking about how to secure elections in Maine

from federal interference this November?

Sure, I mean, these are dangerous, dangerous words.

Dangerous talk, dangerous thoughts, dangerous threats

to our democracy.

And as governor of this state, I was stand firm

and as a state that has repeatedly large turnout,

a large turnout of voters every election year.

One of the highest turns out turnouts in the country.

We will protect every individual's right to vote this November

and take every action necessary to secure the polls

and secure absentee ballots.

We just fought a battle with Republicans this past November

where they tried to take away absentee ballots.

They put a measure on the ballot to take away balloting

and we defeated it by a huge margin

because people don't want to do that.

They hold dear their right to vote.

It is sacrosanct, not just in this state, but every state.

And we will make every effort to make sure that the polls

are not violated by some agency like ICE.

The Constitution says the states have authority over elections

and we will assert that authority under my governorship

and in this state make sure that people are able to vote safely

without intimidation, without deprivation of rights.

When you announced that you were running for Senate,

it appeared they came after like significantly long deliberation.

You thought it long and hard about it.

And you decided that you were the best person to do it.

This was the time to go.

You know, my sort of...

I intuitive from that that you believe that you're the best person

to beat Susan Collins.

Do you think you're the only person to beat Susan Collins?

Look, right now,

the issue is electability right now in this election.

And we have run people against Susan Collins before.

Wonderful people, but we've run people who are not tested.

I have run and won two statewide elections.

I had a seven-way primary the first time and I won.

I had a four-way general election and I won.

I have been up and down in this state.

People know me whether they agree with everything I say or not.

They know me and they know that what you see is what you get.

I'm a person in this primary who has done that,

who's won two statewide elections by 13 points last time,

increasing margins.

I'm the only person in this primary who's delivered progress

for made people when it comes to healthcare,

reproductive rights, education, climate action,

all those things.

And I'm the only person in this primary who's actually stood up

to Donald Trump and I'll do it again as a U.S. senator.

So I put my record up of electability.

This is a crucial state, as you well know.

Control of the U.S. Senate, I believe, goes through Maine.

That has to.

Even machinery has already promised they've already committed

42 million dollars to an advertising campaign this coming fall.

They've already had Susan Collins up on TV,

saturating the airway since last fall,

saying all these good things about her and trying to build up her image

and trying to get behind the fact that she voted.

She gave the critical vote, she cast the critical vote

to confirm Brett Kavanaugh.

She cast votes for Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

She cast the vote for Christine Ohm.

She cast the votes for Linda McMahon.

All these decisions at her 94% voting right, voting rate

with Donald Trump.

And this is the woman who said just a couple of years ago,

Donald Trump, I think he's learned his lesson, quote, unquote.

You know, I'll take her on.

I'll take her on because it'll be a hyper-local campaign.

What have you done for Maine?

What have you done for Maine?

And I can go toe-to-toe with Susan Collins on that basis.

And I can win.

One of the concerns, as you know,

and has been brought up in every interview that you've done,

has been about your age.

And so you have, you know, I've appreciated that you've taken that

on directly a lot of ways.

What's really critical to me is the next couple of years.

The more I see what's happening in Washington,

you've brought up just a few minutes ago,

the threat to our elections this year.

That's not going to stop.

And if we don't take control of our country,

that's not going to stop.

And if we don't take control of our country,

that's not going to stop.

That's not going to stop.

That's not going to stop.

And if we don't take control of our country

in the next couple of years,

I worry we may not have a country.

And that is why I'm running,

because we need to take back control of the U.S. Senate.

We need to stand up to Donald Trump.

We need to push forward on things like universal health care.

And I have the ability and the experience to start on day one,

getting stuff done, making these changes,

standing up for the rights of people,

standing up for a better economy, affordability,

a progress for people and health care and education,

and otherwise, I have the ability to do that on day one.

And I'm not going to start on day two,

dialing for dollars, running for re-election.

I want my whole focus,

and my whole focus will be on getting the job done

as soon as I get there.

We have a young bench behind me,

and the office would be open another six years.

God forbid, we still have a country,

and we still have elections.

There will be other people behind me.

And I'm always been pleased to mentor young people

and younger Democratic Party candidates,

and I'll continue to do that as well.

But I'm giving it my all.

I'm not running because I need a position or a platform

or a resume builder.

I don't need that.

I need to be down there.

And I think people say, well, we won't have seniority.

Really, if I'm out of taking back the US Senate,

my voice will be heard,

and it will be heard loudly.

Last question for you.

You have said that you are undecided

on how you would vote for Senator Schumer as leader.

My understanding at least is that Senator Schumer

has a lot of time and energy recruiting you

to run for Senate.

I've been on the other end of some of Senator Schumer's phone calls

over the years, so I can imagine what that was like.

The DSCC is supporting you.

Is that an awkward position to be in,

and how would you decide whether to support Senator Schumer or not?

What is making you undecided on that point?

When we back up a second before I decided to run in mid-October,

I had had exactly one conversation with Chuck Schumer.

How interesting.

Okay, that's good to know.

I was in February and last year.

He was not pushy.

He said, he simply said,

we think you're the candidate who can win,

who can beat Susan Collins.

And I gave it a lot of thought in the meantime.

It was I who decided to run.

Nobody else.

Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not beholden to anybody.

I have made no commitment to Chuck Schumer.

Nobody in Washington pulled my chain.

He asked my chain whether it's Chuck Schumer or Bernie Sanders

or Donald Trump.

People know that.

I stand up and speak my mind.

And the question I will ask,

anybody running for majority leader next year,

a year for now would be,

what can you do to help me do the best job I can for main people?

How can you help me help main people?

And I've had conversations with other senators

who well may be in the running for a majority lead.

I don't know.

But I've had it held an open door to them as well.

And happy to hear from them all accounts.

So, you know, I have no commitment.

I appreciate that the DSC thinks I'm the best candidate.

I think of the best candidate also.

I happen to agree with that.

And that's why I'm running.

And let me be clear.

I would be running for this seat because I feel so strongly

that we have got to stand up for our country,

especially in the next few months and the next few years.

I would be running for this with a Chuck Schumacher in office

or anybody else in that office.

I chose to run.

And I am running with a commitment and a passion

to help turn things around in a broken Washington DC,

in a government that is not simply not doing right

the right things, but is doing all the wrong things.

A government that is taking a wrecking ball,

not just to the White House,

but to the Constitution, to our economy,

to the rights of American people.

I can't stand for that anymore.

My work isn't finished here with everything I've done

at the state level.

I'm very anxious to go on to the federal level

and continue the work I've done at the state level,

but also stand up to an abuse of power,

the likes of which we have never seen before,

because I think these times are most urgent,

most urgent, dangerous times that we've seen since the Civil War.

That's what I feel, and that's why I'm running.

Governor Mills, thank you so much for joining us.

Good luck on the campaign trail, and we will talk to you again

before your primary, I hope.

Okay, so thank you very much.

That's our show for today.

Thanks to Janet Mills for coming on.

Tommy's going to be back on the feed on Super Bowl Sunday.

He's going to be interviewing Sports Journalist, Pablo Torre.

Bye everyone.

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Hey, love it or leave it listeners.

It's me, the titular John Love It.

Here to tell you that I'm coming back to Washington DC

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We're so excited to be back to DC.

It's a tradition now that we come around the time of the car

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I believe there's going to be some kind of a magician or a mind

milder.

Yes, a magician.

Yeah.

I'm a mentalist.

A mentalist, because I guess Trump wouldn't know.

And Trump's also going.

Yeah.

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Tickets won't last long.

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Got some big guests.

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