How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura)

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расg master sometimes host of reporters in America, but also host of runaway country.

this we have a really special interview.

Uh, I'm talking to Jupiter Moira you may recognize from his term playing Pablo Escobar

and Narcos, which was.

Amazing, but he is nominated for best actor είναι KATAMEE awards the picture he is in the

Seekreet agent is also nominated for best picture and it is an incredible film which

you should all see if you haven't already.

And what brings us together today is the talk of dictatorship, because the secret agent

focuses a lot on a period of Brazil's history when dictatorship was the order of the day,

and the film is set in the 1970s.

And what you will notice in that film is the eerie echoes with the society we are living

in today.

It's not quite as overt, but certainly the freedoms that are being infringed upon the

targeting of perceived enemies.

All of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America.

And Wagner Mora is an incredible actor, but also a real deep thinker about politics

both here and in his home country and sort of what this moment means for artists and

people who are keen to resist tyranny.

So it's a really good conversation.

I hope you check it out.

This is Wagner Mora and me, Alex Wagner, talking in politics, take a listen.

I did not believe this could happen.

And I am so thrilled to have Wagner Mora on the Positive America Sunday show.

This is a real delight.

I am a big fan of your work, which is I know what everybody says to you when these things

start, but I really mean it.

And you obviously have the best name in Hollywood.

Oh, thank you so much.

And thanks for having me.

It's a pleasure.

I was looking forward to doing this.

Really?

You've been doing so much.

I can't believe you really wanted to do an hour-long interview with me, but I'll take

it.

Totally, because you know, I think it's going to be a different one this one.

Yeah, yeah.

It's definitely going to be a different one.

And I'm looking forward to doing something.

Oh, I was gutted by the movie.

I was gutted by it.

I did not, there are so many scenes.

I'm not going to really try and not give spoilers, but there are so many levels.

It's gutting on a personal level where it's like the relationship between father and son.

I have two boys, they're six and eight.

You have three boys, right?

Yeah, I miss that age.

Oh, no, you don't.

No, no.

Trust me.

It's dangerous.

Because each age is a different challenge, but it's also a different kind of, I see photos

of them when they were six and eight.

It was like, oh, my God, I hate my kids so much.

I hate them.

I mean, I really was like, I think boarding school is a great day.

Today, I was like, it's the day.

This is the finally push me.

They actually stormed out of the house like 15 minutes ago in my like winter clothing

with a pack of Girl Scout cookies and some gatorade and they were like, we're leaving.

We're done here.

And I was like, goodbye.

Goodbye.

And they will come back.

Yeah.

Chalorically, I don't think that's going to be enough, but it might be ball chance.

That's so great.

Yeah.

Well, it's got, it's got, it's like, it's so visceral on so many levels, but obviously

to watch that movie, which is about a very specific and dark period in Brazil's history,

the military dictatorship that ran from, I think, 64 to 85, not the end of strong men leading

Brazil by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a really perilous time for anybody

who dares to think freely or has inclinations and impulses towards democratic systems.

And it's chilling.

I mean, I kind of wonder, you started filming this.

What year did you start filming this?

We shot this in 24.

I'm so bad with these dates, but yeah, like June, yeah, July, 2024, I think.

I mean, okay.

So let's talk about this a little bit.

You've characterized that in previous interviews.

You've characterized that period as a civil military dictatorship.

Oh my God.

I'm so sorry.

Hold on.

That's them calling me from up there.

Yeah, because they ran away.

Now they're calling you.

They're back.

Oh, sorry.

I have three kids.

I totally get it.

I'm back.

I'm so sorry.

Are they all right?

Alex, are they okay?

How are they?

Who cares?

Just like, I don't even, I just like they, they've been slipping notes under my door.

I just, okay.

And they work, do they work together?

Like, are they like a good right now when they're not calling each other's eyes out?

They're united in their rage.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If this one person that understands that, that, that's, that's me.

Trust me.

That's the Wagner and all of us.

Okay.

The Wagner thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you've characterized this period in Brazil's history as a civil military dictatorship

because both the political, there was political organization, but also elites and civilian

institutions were complicit in all of this.

And I kind of wonder as you think about that period and you look at the period, we are

living through right now here in the United States where you live and you see the capitulation

of law firms and universities and to some degree private business or at least the wealthiest

among us, how do you sort of reconcile the movie that you made and the reality in which

you live?

It's interesting because this, I love this about films because films are always like an

encounter between what an artist wants to say with a very particular, because we shot

the film in 2024.

We could have, this could have been shot like in 23, sometimes films days, you know, they

take time to be released.

So when we release a film, it's the encounter of that will, that thing that an artist wanted

to say at two years, three years, four years ago, with the present.

And I always think that this is an interesting thing, for example, I directed a film called

Mudigala, right, because it's about a freedom fighter in Brazil, a real character.

And I had to release the film under Bolsonaro's government, which was crazy, to release a film

about a guy who was fighting against the dictatorship under the government of a man who praised

the dictatorship and censored my film.

So it's interesting to see that now, for example, I love the fact that the film is, the

secret agent has been released in Brazil now under Lula, which is a very democratic, different

guy.

A very different guy, I mean, I mean, it's hard to say these things with politicians,

but I'm a fan.

I think Lula is a fantastic character of Brazilian history.

But also, exactly, and now, to see the film being released in Europe, in different countries

of Europe, like in Spain, it's interesting the discussions about how Franco's name is

coming back to young people, you know, as if, like, maybe there was this strong president

back then that was, and here in the US, of course, with the, it's interesting, because

when you do the Q&As, for example, when you talk to journalists, you end up learning

a lot about the film that you did, like, having insights about, I've been learning about

this secret agent just by listening to American audiences, for example, like kind of questions

that they do.

So yeah, of course, and that's how it was supposed to be, like, this parallel, this

connections with the present, with what's going on right now.

Did you, I mean, obviously you were thinking about Brazil when you made the film, but

were you thinking about the United States?

I mean, was that something you conceived of?

You filmed it in 2024 before Trump had won.

So obviously, things could have been really quite different once the film was released,

but we are where we are.

I mean, did you think about our flirtation with and now outright embrace of autocracy?

Yeah, this, I think the idea of strong governments, of strong men, there was, I think there

is an idea of masculinity going on in the world right now, that, that, you know, that,

and then was how it was back then with, with, with, with Pinochet and Shili was, was Hitler

with, with, you know, the, the idea of the, the, the, the macho man that's going to

evolve the problem.

I was very impressed when I saw the thing that really, of course, it was, it was, when Alex

Pratt, Pratt, it was killed by, by, by eyes in Minneapolis, of course, the, that image

was so horrible and so strong, but while I was watching what I could, my brain was like,

I could see two different kind of, of muscle, of muscle, they're very clear to me, like,

there was a man that put his body in front of a, a woman or, or a, or a person that needed

his help trying to protect her and then there was this other man that were pure rage and

brutality and the, and you could see, I mean, it's a, maybe it's just a man, actually, but

I could go and look at these men and go like, and kind of see all the fragility that they

did with them, you know, all the issues that these men were carrying with them in order

to do what they did to that other human, to do the other human beings.

So yeah, so maybe I'm, I'm, I'm traveling, like, with it, I think that the, they're, we

are living in a moment where, yeah, there is a, it's a discussion about, there was a big

thing about masculinity as well. Yeah, and that's in the movie too. I mean, there are these

moments where it's like, your name's Bobby, what kind of name is Bobby? Of course, they say it,

so lyrically in Malefici and Portuguese, but, you know, and it's like, this is the 70s,

and it's like, well, what the fuck, Bobby's a pretty masculine name as far as I know, but,

but this constant battle we seem to have through the ages, at least in modern society,

around what makes a man. And so much of politics is driven by that. And then I'm sure as an actor,

it's something you as a man must confront in the roles that you play too, right? This like war,

these warring ideas about what makes a man. And how, I mean, I don't like, like, how much time

do we have to spend talking about fucking men in the, in the world, right? But it is so

determinative in terms of, like, society and social outcomes.

Yeah, and we both have sons, right, Alex? Yeah. A lot of them, too many, one would argue.

It's five. It's five, just just between us. Five, between the two of us.

So it's what it is also to, yeah, to what kind of values we are passing along to our sons.

Can I interrupt you for a second? Because we mentioned Alex Pretty. And I know you met,

you've talked about this before, but you, you, you've talked about a renanical good and Alex

Pretty as being kind of similar to the character you play in terms of outcome. And, and,

I guess tragedy. Can you talk a little bit more about that for, and I don't want to,

I don't want to ruin any endings, but I just wonder how you see a kinship between,

you know, the person that you play in this movie that's set in 1977. And what happened on

the streets of Minneapolis in the year 2026? Yeah, I think we are, we're just because it's about

values, but I was, no, I got a little lost because I wanted to answer your previous question about

about masculinity. Yeah, about, yeah, because we'll go, I'll go back to the two. Yeah, of course.

Renegude and then, but in the film, in the secret agent, there was something also about,

there was a father and son thing in the film going, yeah, because my character has a son,

you know, but the the chief of police of the film has also has two sons. And the killers that are,

that are trying to find my character, it's like a father and son thing too. So,

now going, I think I'm going to make a bridge between these two things. And

it's about values, I think, you know, and what kind of values you pass along to the new

generations, because the secret agent is a film about generational trauma. I like, and how,

you know, these things can be passed along in within an entire country.

Brazil suffered of, of generational trauma, I think throughout our entire history. In 79,

you mentioned that the dictatorship and in 85, in 79, we had a law called the Amnesty law.

That basically forgave torturers and killers, and that it's like the dictatorship forgiving

it's themselves. Like, it forgave all torturers and killers and people that did the speakable things.

Here we call it a blanket pardon, and everybody should be expecting more of those when Trump is

on his way out of office. Like that. And so people, that made people sort of like Bolsonaro himself

would never have been possible, I think, as a president if it wasn't because of that law.

You know, that affected the memory of an entire country that was like, did there are young people

in Brazil like that didn't even know that it wasn't a dictatorship in the country. All people

would go like, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad. So again, going back to the first conversation,

things that we're, when we were talking about the time where the film is released, it's also

interesting that this film is being released in Brazil in a moment where finally Brazil sort of

getting even with its memory when we sent Bolsonaro to jail, we sent military people that

attempted against democracy in Brazil to jail. And I think that just to try to put it all together,

I think it has to do, and I said when I want to go in groups that if if if trauma can be passed

along generations, values can too. That's so important, right? Yeah, how are we? Yeah, how can we

exactly? And I think it comes to how are we educating our kids and how the society, how are

the crisis of information that that we are going through? Well, it's the alignment of the

tech oligarchs with the power. That's the thing that scares me a lot in the West because I only

kind of started to realize that recently, I'm not an internet guy, I'm not on social media,

I'm not like, but I only understood the alignment of Facebook or whatever, these guys with the

far right, with the right and with the republics and with the power and the way that they are now

and they all have, they have a project themselves. And I didn't know that because back then,

I guess like 10, 10 years ago, technology and social media, these things were kind of like a world

to be explored, even for progressive ideas, right? How can we connect? How can we share ideas? How can

the world be connected? And I think that this just this idea just disappeared in my mind. It's very

clear to me right now that this is the disalignment is what it is.

Yeah, and they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial intelligence becomes more

of our everyday reality, right? The world is going to be in the hands of tech billionaires who

have proven in this hour that they have no moral code, which is a terrifying thing.

It's a terrifying thing.

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through our link. I do want to get, I mean, I want to go, I want to go to the, the ideas of

Rene Nicole Good and Alex Prete because you made this film in 2024 and then these two people were

murdered on video in Minneapolis in 2026. And I know you've said you feel there's a throughline

between what happens and what happened to people in Brazil and what happens to your character

in the secret agent. And what is happening to Americans like Prete and Good in this day and age?

Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, listen, authoritarianism is, I'm not

an expert in that field, but I lived in a country that had not only won the dictatorship,

but some we had, our history is full of coup d'état and authoritarianism and violence and

other beautiful things too, but this is a reality in Brazil, Bolsonaro is a manifestation of

these forces that are part of what our country really is. And what I understood or what I understand

about this and especially when we were under the government of a fascist president is that

and also to right going back to the books and reading about, you know, authoritarian regimes is

that there must be resistance, civilian resistance, you know, and I'm not talking about guerrilla

fighters or like armed resistances or anything like that, but civil disobedience and

basically what people in Minneapolis were doing, you know, and look what they got.

I mean, we're recording this on the day that Tom Homan, who was brought in to take the reins from

the psychopath Greg Bovino and Kristi Nome is announcing they're going to withdraw ICE agents,

Operation Metro Surge is going to be wound down, which is a testament to the bravery

and the tenacity and the organization of these moms and dads and neighbors in Minneapolis.

Exactly. And that's exactly that's the perfect example. You know, I think that this is what

has to be done just sometimes just record something or blue or whistle or like it's something that

that shows to want to be authoritarian or an authoritarian government that they will face

some sort of resistance. Otherwise, they just roll over and it's real fast. That's the only

thing that I can say, yeah, for the experience of living in a country with that kind of, where

that kind of thing happened many, many times. And we almost had that like in a very, we kind of

had it with Bolsonaro. But if he had the second term, the way Trump is having, because we all

know that the second terms are that's when they go because it's basically the population saying

we saw what you did, we liked it, go for it. So this is a very important moment, I think,

for that kind of resistance. The other thing that strikes me in terms of parallels is the

main character that you play in the movie, part of the struggle is getting at the truth of what

happened to him and what his life was like and who he actually was, his character.

And I, one of the most revolting parts of both the Nicanical good death and Alex Freddie was the

swiftness with which the federal government decided to destroy their humanity and their memory

and their legacy. And just how unhidden that, just it was all happening in plain sight. You know,

it was like we're going to deny the facts of what happened on the ground, but we're also going to

call these people domestic terrorists. Yeah. That I think for a lot of Americans seeing that happen

was a real wake up call. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how,

how to fight against that, right? Like there's a desire to forget the bad stuff. There's also

a desire to look away. But the part of the thing is to keep looking and keep asking questions.

Yeah, there are things that cannot be forgotten, things that cannot be forgiven. And I saw

the other day, Donald Trump saying like we have to go over, we have to move on. Yeah.

And then go like that is dangerous. You know, there are things that you cannot absolutely

forget. When I said that I've been learning a lot about the film that I did talking to people,

like it's like recently in one of those Q&As, I was answering a question about

how my what happened to my character and how it ended up for him. And I realized one thing

that I hadn't thought about the film that this is also a film about infamy. And exactly what you

what you said, like when when you kill someone twice, you know, because you kill, you kill the

person and then you kill the reputation. Exactly. And that's so cruel. And that's typical of this

kind of regime. I've been saying these Alex and I don't want to repeat myself, but I the thing

that scares me, it really scares me. And when we're talking about the alignment of the

all the tech, all the guts with the power is that and the and the decadence of journalism,

the Washington Post just firing people. This is this is the thing that concerns me. The idea that

the truth is over or the post truth or whatever scholars call us. Yeah, that we have shared realities.

It's had realities. You know, we don't we we are not living in the same mental space.

You know, we are not like it's not that everybody that voted for Trump or voted for Bolsonaro.

They are not like bad people like some of them are, but but lots of these people are just people

that are living in another reaction. Yeah, they think the world is operating in a different fashion.

It's a different and this was something that was always it's it's a thing for the far right that

they have always done that, but with the technology now with the fact that I can you can have a video.

This right now could be me speaking. It's me. It's my face. It's my voice. And it's not me.

I know. And for me, I'm almost 50. This is crazy. I know. You know, I it's the idea that like

you said, like they can say, it's just that the resistance that just that kind of thing doesn't allow

them to go that far with the lies against Rene, good, Alex, because there are people here to say,

like this is not true. Yeah. But it's becoming more and more common to that these kind of things

are going to be taken as the truth. You know, and well, that people feel they're being manipulated

by technology and that the real truth is not the truth that challenges their assumptions about

the world. I mean, that's the thing is people just want information, data, stories,

narrators who confirm that the way they think and see things is the right way. And anything that

disrupts that is rejected as false or or part of, you know, like some kind of conspiracy. And that

is not good. I mean, I have anyone watched your movie and not like have you gotten any reactions

that have not seen the parallel reality between what was happening in Brazil in 1977 and what's

unfolding, not just in America, but in other places with the rise of strong men. And I think that

this has been very clear and this has been the subject of all the discussions and all the

human A's and all the conversations that we've been having. And I'm glad that this is being like,

this is, this is what I think that's why we do films. That's why we do what we do, I think.

Have you been, I mean, hasn't you live in Los Angeles? And we're at a moment when this president

is trying to kick out people who are legally here, people that are inconvenient for him,

people, especially who are from Central and South America. I mean, have you felt any particular

peril going out there and being openly political about this and being outwardly critical of certain

administrations? Yeah, it's, it's, I've been always been, I've been always very vocal, right,

like in Brazil, especially. Yeah. And Bolsonaro, you were on his radar.

Oh, yeah, I, it was, it wasn't easy. It was, it was because, you know, in order to be vocal,

you have to be also like willing to, to face the backlash, right? That's why I'm against when

people go, people, you have to go out, you have to speak up. There's some people that are not

ready to do that. And they shouldn't, because the backlash is really strong. Yeah, but I think

that this is, I mean, what did you, you asked something? Like, did you have you worried at all?

No. You worried at all about repercussions? No, because it would be worse for me to, to

go, yeah, to go. But this is how I am. Again, this is me. You know, they shouldn't value,

this is, this, this shouldn't be the thing for everybody. For me, I wouldn't be able to sleep

at night. If I, if I, if I knew something, if I had something that I, that I, that I knew, I,

I would say and people would listen to me. And I would do it. I wouldn't do it because I was

afraid of something or because someone is paying me, you know, because I have an economic,

a financial interest that would just, again, talking about values. How can I tell my kids to be

honest and to be, you know, to be, to be themselves and to stick with the values that they have,

if I don't do that. Right. So no, I'm not, of course, it's, it's something, I've been,

again, the world is totally polarized. Right? So when I say something, especially in Brazil,

when I say something like half of the country, I guess, go like, that's nice, that's cool.

And the other half is like, yeah, I mean,

I do, do you get shit? Like do people give you a hard time in Brazil? Oh my god.

What do they do? Do they, do they come up to you? What do they say?

I'm glad that I don't have social medias because it's, it's, I, you know, it's hardcore. Yeah,

I've, when I, when I did that, my film, Madagela, and, and that was under Bolsonaro's

government. We just, even many death threats. And in some, when we were releasing the film,

we had to have metal detectors at the door. Yeah, I've been like, when I was on the street,

because I go out and was in a, some, I had to be really pay attention where I was and who I was

talking to. So you decided to follow that up with this film. Like if I were your wife, I'd be like,

how about an animation? How about, how about a Pixar film, honey? I would love it. I want to be the

voice of a crab. How about that? I was, I was actually visiting Pixar Studios yesterday. Yeah,

yeah, you were. That's, that's what I should be doing. But yeah, but, but, but, but, but I think it's,

it's, yeah, this is, this is how I function, I think, as a, as a, as a person. Well, I mean hats

off to you. And I wish that we're more people, I honestly think, you know, we are living in times.

And I say this as an American who has lived larger the life of privilege in a very free society

as a journalist, but it is really feels like it's time to pick a side. You know, when they're

threatening to, you know, arrest and hang for treason, US senators, when they're going after

the fourth of state, and when they're terrorizing communities of color in American cities just by virtue

of disagreement. It's like, this is the hour. This is the hour to say something. And I think,

make sure, yeah, you know, Hollywood is one thing. But if you have a pulpit, if you have a voice,

why not use it? I mean, I do want to ask, though, because I say this and you're in Hollywood,

it's another sunny day where it picks our studios. I was in Hungary early last year trying to get

a sense of what it was like to live in an autocracy. And, and one of the things as an American, I

didn't fully under, I did not grasp the lived experience of being in Brazil in the late 70s,

right? I think most Americans, because we're largely ignorant about world history,

think of Brazil as like carnival and like hybridginias and whatever. The movie takes place during carnival,

which I thought was really interesting, but they think of Brazil as an hour. Which is happening

right now. Well, I mean, the Lenton season, right? Like, it's so, so, but just talk to me a little

bit about how, you know, we, I do feel like autocracies now are, they're not like the gulags

of yesterday. They're like, like, Hungary is a lovely place to visit. You can go have a cocktail

and a great meal, but there's not real freedom of speech, right? And Brazil, it's like, it's still

this beautiful place. It's bucolic. There's a lot of sex happening, a lot of sex in the movie.

Yeah, very sexy, very authentically of the fabric of Brazil, but yeah, exactly. And I,

it's just hard for people to understand that just because your day-to-day life can be one of sunshine

and beaches, it doesn't guarantee that you have real freedom. And I wonder how you as a Brazilian

think about that period and just the way, you know, people like enjoying their lives. They don't

want to have to worry about darkness at the edge of the frame. You know, when I did Narcos and I

was living in Colombia, Bogota back in the 80s was the most dangerous city in the world because of

the bombs. Pablo Escobar was putting on the streets and everything. And I was asking my friends in

Colombia, I was like, hey, what was it to be to live here back in the 80s? What was it? And

they were like, dude, we were going out. We were going to bars and living our lives and then

bomb a bomb exploded. Exactly. And that's one thing that I love in films is to seek characters.

I love to seek characters that want to live, that like to be alive despite of the situations,

that because that's how human beings are. Yeah. So we're not monolithic. Of course, it's hard

core to be under a dictatorship. But one of my favorite scenes in the Secret Agents when he

realizes that they're hitmen looking for him. And then he goes downstairs and carnivores going

on and goes like, okay, so it gives himself to the carnivore and goes. And that's for me,

that's very humane. That's that's but you were right about this thing, the detectorships,

non-detectorships, but authoritarian reaching out nowadays, it's interesting, man. I mean,

when I think about the detectors, the dictators from South America and back in the 70s and

70s, there are all those military guys with, you know, those hats and things. Uniforms.

Yeah, uniforms and and and it's interesting that they all now, they are perceived as it's exactly

like you said. I haven't thought about that. I was like, yeah, this is just, you know, like this is

it. This is this is this is this is this is normal. This is this is this is it's more like a cynical

that's that's just one thing about Donald Trump that I think it's interesting. What?

Yeah, Tony. When he, for example, when he invaded of Venezuela right now, he didn't say they had

mass destruction weapons or anything like that. He was like, no, no WMDs.

Oil. You know, we're fucked straight up. We're robbing this fucking country. We want their oil.

That's what we want. And and I was like, wow, because yeah, I feel that now nowadays these authoritarian

guys, they they passed as they like to to to behave as as democratic as democratic guys. They don't

it's like they don't want people to know it's like a full on dictatorship. They're like, you can still

go to Zumba class. Yeah, you're you can still get a smoothie. There's just no press anymore. And

also if you're brown, if you're too brown, we're going to deport you regardless of whether you're

an American to another country that's not even yours. I mean, but that's the thing of the United

States. It's like, it's a very careful line, right? You're nominated for best actor. We have a

best picture nomination. And like those are hallmarks of a free and fair society that would champion

that level of artistry that addresses the subject of dictatorship so directly. But it's also like,

but shit, the rest of the country's like, go to Minneapolis. I was there three weeks ago. That

sure as fuck did not feel like a democracy, right? And you say like, I'm nominated for an academy

award. But if I see ice people on the street, right? I've been asking myself, what what would I do?

What would you do? I don't know because my my my instinct. And I have I know that I have this

instinct in me, which my wife gets very nervous about, which is like, fuck you, you know. And

and I have to be careful with that. Because insane. Can I just say this is insane? But yeah,

because they if they are going to the Oscar and I speak with the accent. And I yeah,

what it's like, they and they go like, I don't know what, what would I do?

I don't know. Should I just pretend that they're not there and try to walk? I don't know if I could

be able to do that, you know, or my reaction would be like confrontation. And that could be very

and that could put my life in danger. Yeah, do your kids, your kids are old enough to know about

what's happening? Do you talk to them about it? Yeah, they went to a manifestation against ice

a protest. Yeah, a protest here. And what did they talk to you about what you should do or what

you would do as a family? I mean, that's so insane that someone who's up for best actor is like,

if ice comes, fuck, I don't know what I do. I don't know. I don't know. No, we have we have

conversations here about politics and and I just wanted to be safe, you know, like when they

did the younger ones that might have my my my kids are 1915 and 13 and the 15 and the 13

they were like, that is a manifestation against ice.

Some of our friends are they're going, can we go? I was like, yeah, you should go go. Yeah,

but I was like worried worried. Yeah.

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I believe there's going to be some kind of a magician or a mind, mind-meldor. Yes, a magician.

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Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, there's a mental case and then and Trump is also going.

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at Grammarly.com. That's Grammarly.com. When we talk about sort of like masculinity and

the ways in which fathers and sons can impart lessons to each other and just how much of our

political moment is dictated by toxic masculinity, I must ask you since you just sort of made a

glancing mention of the Epstein files, what do you think of all that? I know that the corruption

of the elites was something that happened in Brazil in this period, something that a lot of

autocratic and dictatorial societies are familiar with because you really can't get far

unless you have buy-in from the richest and the most powerful. When you see this Epstein stuff come

out, what do you think of it? What was your thought when you saw all the people that were

mentioned in that? It's crazy because I sometimes catch myself in a sort of Q and on sort of like

well, I mean, I think all of us were like going on maybe, maybe kind of we hit on something there.

Of course, pure satire is about because first of all, we're talking about a financial elite,

right? That when I heard a non-chonsky was involved in this thing, I was like, yeah, man,

this is it. For sure, most of the people involved in this scandals are conservative politicians

and but it actually didn't, it's not about right or left. No, it's about power and wealth.

About power and wealth. For me, that is coming from a country where social inequality is the biggest

issue, you know, it's the biggest issue of Brazil and every time with the exception of Lula,

that's why I respect him so much, but every time a president in Brazil, someone tried to do

something about it, this person got altered, you know, got impeached or there was a coup d'état

or something every time because people make lots of money. The interest of rates in Brazil is like,

I don't know, I don't even know, it's like the biggest in the world. So the banks makes lots

of money financial. It's a system that they don't want to be changed. So it's just,

yeah, it's just, yeah, it's hard not to go like, oh my god, this, this, this world is being ruled

by lizards. Do you just like, is it weird to be in a place like Hollywood when this stuff comes out

because he made inroads, he was always, Epstein was always trying to get to Hollywood and there is

a certain like Hollywood can look away from things it doesn't want to see. We know that from the

Me Too movement. And I just wonder like, I wonder what it's like to be a bit of a radical and to

be politically engaged and being someone who's ready to resist in a, and I'm not asking you to like

smear Hollywood, but so much of Hollywood is transactional and it's just about like, you know,

who knows who and power and access. Don't expose yourself. Be, you know, what? Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, but you know, I've, you know, of course, you know, it's way smaller scale. I lived

this in Brazil as well. Yeah. Yeah. I star system in Brazil as well. And it operates sort of in the

same way, but you know, in a smaller, in a way, smaller scale. And it's, yeah, it's how the same

that we spoke in the beginning, like, I understand, I really understand people that don't want to

go out there and say things, you know, although I agree with you, if there's a moment to go out

there and say, shit, I think it's now. It's now. But I understand who doesn't want to do that,

you know, because it's people are not equipped emotionally or or, you know, we're intellectually

or or or or didn't don't. People shouldn't talk about things that they don't understand.

So I get that. I get that, right? I get that. But, uh, but it's for me, yeah, it's, it's a

I'll keep, I'll keep being myself. Just again, the thing that I'm telling my kids all the times,

like be yourself, you know, what you are is good enough. Don't try to be something else. Don't

try to impress anyone. Just, you are wonderful. Just do what you are. Just be yourself and you'll

be fine. Stick with the values that you have. And you, meanwhile, are going to be someone else

every couple months. I'm kidding. I know what you're saying. But, yeah, but, but there's another

thing about it, like, and I will be Pablo Escobar. But, but that's the point. For me,

it's interesting. I've, I've, I've come to realize more and more that when I play a character,

it's way more a version of myself. Yeah. And anything else, you know, like, it's not like the idea

that actors like put masks in front of them. But so you're not method. I think it, I think we

expose ourselves a lot when they believe in when we play characters like Pablo Escobar.

Can I ask you, I ask you this because you're from South America. And, um,

Trump's ramp up to the Super Bowl and bad bunny performing and was like, so

the racism usually, like, lives right on the surface. But in that moment and the aftermath,

it was like the degradation of Latin culture and the like ac- the accusations that like, you

can't be part of America, you know, bad bunny saying together we are America and ending the

Super Bowl listing off, including your home country, all these countries and suggesting like

the prospect that the promise of this place is its inclusivity and that you can be Brazilian,

but you're also American. How did like, how did that moment strike you when you were? I mean,

I don't know if you watch football, but like, I assume the like, the, the sort of like, do you

speak English? What language do you speak? Like the whole debate about having this performer and what

he said ultimately in his joyous celebration of a halftime. Beautiful. I didn't see the whole thing.

I saw a video afterwards and I thought I thought he was beautiful. I thought I thought he was,

he was brave and he, because for me, it's always what I could be to say here is talking to you and

saying things and I can say here right now, I think Donald Trump is racist, right? And I keep

telling this and doing this all the time. This wouldn't be as important or as, or stronger than,

for example, the film that we did, the secret agent. I think that what, what, what fascists

are afraid of is not, they're not afraid of, because they, any fascist government, they attack

journalists, they attack artists, they attack universities. But with artists, I don't think that they

are afraid of what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do. Yeah. This is what concerns them.

You know, and so bad bunny in the Grammys, he went up there and he said,

eyes out and it was like fucking cool. But what he did with that performance is way more powerful.

Totally. It's his talent and that's what he was born to do. And the way he did it, I was very

moved. Me too. And of course, in Trump's reaction is a clear display of racism. But also fear,

I think, to fear and fear. That's right. And fear. Because to your point, I mean, Trump wants to

believe as, as, as much of a cultural idiot as he is, I think you're totally right about artists

being a very powerful bulwark to authoritarianism because they have the hearts in the mind of the

people. They have this magic to them that can't easily be stamped out and can't be dismissed as

partisan chicana rates. It's like, it's something that that Trump will never have, that magic that

bad bunny had. And the goodness and the joy of that performance is the opposite of what he's

offering to the air. And being such a narcissist, you know, for him, that's not it. But you said

very right. It's like fear is a, I'm convinced that the whole, all the, all the bad things in the

world, they can't, they all come out of fear and insecure and lack of self-esteem. But going

back to the, to the, to the guys killing Alex Petri in Minneapolis, I saw those men, they were

in fear of what, that's what I could see, you know, like very scared man. They were always scared.

There's something in their life. And the way they recruit the eyes, people from where I heard,

it's very particular, like like it's like they're gathering people with very, not only

ideologically, but like there is something about these men that, that connect them in their fear,

in their lack of self-esteem, in the way that they've been, you know, like in their minds that they

have been relegated their entire lives. And I could see that when Bolsonaro got elect,

when in his, all his secretaries and, and ministers, there were like a bunch of people that no one

really never cared about. It was like, people, there were like a lot of like people with so much

resentment in their hearts and, and, and, and now this, now it's my moment, now it's totally.

Well, I would argue the same as true of the Trump administration. It's like the, the cabinet

of broken toys. It's people who have faced rejection, who feel less than and who've been given

some power and are going to use that to, you know, put the boot on other people's necks. I think

it's also why ice wears masks. It's for their own. It's like, they're also, they know that part of

their impunity is because they're hidden. But if they actually had to face the music of what they're

doing, the depravity of it, like they're, they're terrified of what they're doing. That's, that says a

lot. Exactly. The masks are a huge part of this. The mask says a lot. You know, why, yeah, that,

why, why, why are you, you're not showing your face? I got to ask you about this because I,

I was really struck by this quote when you, when you, after an arcos, a series I absolutely loved

so much. Again, it's like, I know every journalist does this in these interviews with you. So I'm

trying my best not to be falling. But anyway, you said you turned down a lot of interviews after

an arcos because you didn't want to be like the Latin bad guy. And in an interview, you said,

I want to play a character who speaks the way I speak because I represent a big portion of this

country, people who came here, speak with accents, and are important for what we know as the United

States, which is chef's kiss, no notes. But like, was that a political, like how, how far, how much

of a political, that feels like a really political statement in this country? Yeah, it's for sure,

a political statement. You know, I, I want, I don't want to play, I want, I don't want to do anything

that would be, you know, that would represent my people in a, you know, way that would be

stereotype or with the image. Representation matters a lot. You know, I, I, I, I think that it's great

to see, you know, to, to, to let to have kids back in, like in Brazil, looking at the kind of

characters that I want to play or that, you know, one thing that I was very like, I love to see

Diego Luna in the Star Wars. I know. It's so good. That's so important. Like a Mexican little boy,

they're in Mexico or like the Mexican communities of the people that speak Spanish here in this country,

go like, oh my god, this is dude speaking with that accent and it's in the Star Wars world.

I belong to that too. I think this is so important, you know, for the, for, for kids for the new

generations and, and yeah, it's for sure a political statement. Pedro Pascal needs to take that

Mandalorian mask off. He's just kidding. He's great. He's great.

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Hey, love it or leave it listeners. It's me, the titular John Love it.

Here to tell you that I'm coming back to Washington DC for Love it or leave it live at the Lincoln

Theater on April 23rd. That's right. Spring in DC is all about cherry blossoms and Love it

or leave it bringing you a stack lineup of guests. That's what makes it America's number one late

night gay live comedy political podcast. We're so excited to be back in DC. It's a tradition now

that we come around the time of the car response and or even though the car response and are really

no longer has comedians, I believe there's going to be some kind of a magician or a mind,

mind-melder. Yes, a magician. Yeah, I'm a mentalist. A mentalist because I guess Trump wouldn't

know. Trump's also going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right there. Yeah, there's a mental case and then

and Trump is also going. That's how it is. Tickets won't last long. They're so I'm pretty fast. So

get yours now while you still can at Cricket.com slash events. Very excited for the DC show.

Got some big guests. I'm pretty exciting, maybe. Cricket.com slash events.

Let me ask you because I feel like on your CV it says that you at one point worked as a journalist.

Is that right? Yeah, I graduated as a journalist. That's why I also why I care so much about

journalism and and I'm so concerned about the state of journalism. Is that why you took the

the less glamorous path of the Hollywood superstar? It was just like it was too much pressure being

a journalist. No, I think that I wouldn't that that wasn't my thing. I think I don't think it would

be a very good journalist. Why? It I think it requires a lot of I have lots of interest in other

people and I want to know about it and but there is a thing that a journalist has to be very

you know invasive sometimes. Like he's saying why? You know, but you know like you have to be

you do you know have to like keep not receiving a know and going back there and knocking at their

door and try and I don't think I had that kind of skills you know and also to when I worked as

a journalist I was I had a very romantic idea that I wanted to to be like all the president's

man kind of thing and do something that and it the kind of thing that I was doing when I started

as a journalist was very like what were you doing do you remember? I remember that I

covered police. I had to go to the police station and know how many people died. That's

what Woodward and Bernstein were doing. They were like weekend beat reporters. It was very like

and also I did some cultural things too and I don't know man. I think that I that's acting

yeah well you're nominated for an Academy Award. Obviously you chose the right path.

My friends from from from from from the city where I'm from from Salvador by most of them are

my my I met my wife in the in college and in journalism. Most of my friends are journalists and

I'm very concerned of the state of journalism as a business and as an idea it's the Washington

Post thing is very it was a very sad thing to see you know like I was like Jeff Bezos has

for a million to put in that documentary and he couldn't you know he had to

fire all these people like from from from from the Washington Post the Washington Post is a very

very important institution for American democracy. Yeah you know again talking about the while

the president's man you know like it's it's so those that those kind of things really

this dis concerns me a lot. Well you talk about Watergate and I'm reminded of the 1970s in America

which was like an incredible period of cinema. I think in large part because it was a response

to Vietnam and Watergate and the corruption of institutions. Do you feel optimistic that we're

going to I mean in your movie is obviously time you know you you did it in 24 and we've obviously

been talking about autocracy and dictatorships a lot in the Western world. Do you are you

optimistic that Hollywood can react in the way that it did like it did in the 70s and and and

sort of be fertile again or do you feel like the system is fucked beyond repair. I'm sorry bad with

this you know predictions I don't I never know what's going to happen and I don't know how the

the impact of technology is going to have in our in what we do I can see the the AI thing is

you know it's moving so fast there's AI actors already you know like I don't know you know I don't

know the grip of this technology. The film this condition had if you if you noticed it had a

very huge clever man don't you feel the director of this film he loves American films as I do

from the 70s. Yeah and it's very influenced by that very clearly even with the way he shoots with

the panamorphic lenses and the zooms and the political aspects of three days of counter and all

those films from from pack and pa from from you know the palma and pack and pa all these

pacula is this is a great era of of of for films in the world is it is and the clothes are so

fucking awesome let's just say yeah it goes great I hope so listen I hope are you kidding you got

you like you look amazing the you the world does it goes great but I to to your question I hope

I hope so I think I really liked one battle after another yeah that I was a great film you know

about a revolution in the future and and also like again like a film that was they shot it

I don't know when they shot that but you know and then all these film that starts with lots of

Latinos in the getting you know you know in the prison and the revolutionaries freeing them and

yeah I think will I think it's it's it's will filmmakers and ours will keep doing our thing you

know like it's like despite of economical powers and Hollywood and and the grip that that the

that money has on the studios and and the technology thing and I think we'll keep doing our thing

it's just it's just what we do well you you said something really beautiful at the beginning of

this which I want to get back to before we close it out which is you know generational trauma can

be passed down but so can general is I'm getting it wrong already is it generational hope I mean

I think one of the values yeah values you said generational trauma can be passed down but so can

generational values and I think honestly one of the ways you remind people we we remind ourselves

of who we are and in all of our complexities is through art right like it's like you this this

film is a reminder of what happened in Brazil but it's a way for Brazil to also reconcile her past

whatever one of his past whatever and and it's a holding a mirror back up to ourselves but that's

also how we it's a statement of values and priorities that you make art like that right that one

battle after another and the stick and and the secret agent are both going to be best picture

nominees is is is a value statement about what matters and what resonates in our culture and

that's really hopeful I think so I think so to and I think that this is so it's been so important

you know because the far right in Brazil they were very efficient in transforming artists of

course into the enemies of the people this is a big discussion in Brazil about if the government

should fund culture or not of course the far right says no we shouldn't they shouldn't do that

and they and they said at all all these artists they are you know they are using

the money to that we should build a school or a hospital and we're doing a film

such a bunch of it's bullshit that's a false that's a false statement that's a false choice

it's the false but you know but people it's crazy because people see that people go like yeah

I prefer a school then a fucking film you know and this is being a battle battle after another

that we are that we are fighting in Brazil against against this this kind of thing because no

country the I listen I grew up watching American films right so that for me were international films

but that I saw with subtitles but my understanding of what the US is

comes from the films that I saw yeah you know every time every time I think about Christmas all

doing Brazil it's summer I think about snow because of the American Christmas films so

and that's and that's and and that was something that was important for me to to to read your

your country to have to have to have empathy for for for these people to admire things about

this culture to you know and to see things that I didn't like as well and to go like oh that's

not cool and to to to form an idea of other countries but I guess it's even more important for an

American for Americans that throughout history like to be able to see themselves to go like oh

so this is who we are exactly we are this is and great things and that's the shaping of a culture

no country develops without that so the false dichotomy of like hospitals or films it's stupid

because we need we need films we need books we need we need to see ourselves in our in our

I love what's going on in Brazil right now the way people are embracing this film even with

the polarization and seeing like this film represent us you know this is Brazil you know this is

a part of of Brazil it's a part of Brazilian history so yeah I think I think this is this is indeed

very very important yeah it's like it's like why you know the the videos of Alex Prede and

Nick and Renee Nicole good are really important but then it's also it's also important to see

bad money at the Super Bowl and it's also important you know it's it's all of a piece it's all

America and and the only true the truth is not distilled into just one image but many images right so

can I ask you like do you know what you're going to say if you win

I don't I really don't I'm gonna say ice out okay I have no idea I think that we got I'm so happy

that we honestly like no bush we got so far it's crazy you know this Brazilian film had

more nominations to the Academy Awards we want awards in Cannes we won awards in the Golden Globes

it's great you know I think that we we are where we where we didn't really dream to be when we were

doing this movie so yeah as a as a you know I don't I don't think I don't have expectations like

talking on a word this time really you've given more thought to what happens if ice detains you

than if you actually win the Academy Awards that actually be that I should be definitely

thinking about why isn't he here oh he's detained oh my god no well that would be amazing for

the cause let's just be clear yeah now I could have a chance now thanks to this podcast we've

put a target on your back not the intention at all and we know you would get out fast because

that would that would generate lots of publicity for sure well listen I hope that you win it and

there's no ice agents anywhere near it's an extraordinary film you're an extraordinary I just

it's so reassuring to have artists who are also politically engaged and just so fucking awake

it's awesome it's great to have you on a program like this and it means a lot both I think for us

here at Crooked but also for our audience and it's just great to see a handshake between politics

and art that's so effortless and so real so I think that they they they walk together I don't

I don't see are I think that they're they're really entangled are arts and politics is sort of like

the same you know I think that's how I see it listen I wanted to be an actor but I became a journalist

you wanted to be a journalist became an actor I think we ended up in our right lanes and we're both

Wagner and we both we needed a Wagner and journalism one and I just a lot of common here I'm excited

I just we're we're siblings from a different mother I don't know something like that it is

a true pleasure Wagner thank you for spending some time with me today you're the best thank you thank

you thank you thank you to Wagner Mora for being such a sport about all of this I hope this

doesn't dim your prospects getting a Pixar movie but keep making these movies and everybody

please keep supporting artists you can have conversations like this in the middle of an academy

award season by going to see the secret agent which is streaming now or by going back into the

vaults and checking out season one of Narcos where he is totally awesome thank you to Wagner for

doing this and thank you guys all for listening if you want to listen to Pajtaev America ad free

and get access to exclusive podcasts go to Cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on supercast

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this episode and everything we do here at Cricket Pajtaev America is a cricket media production

our producer is Saul Rubin our associate producer is Farah Safari Austin Fisher is our senior producer

Reed Churland is our executive editor Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics the show is mixed

and edited by Andrew Chadwick Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle

Seglund and Charlotte Landis Matt DeGroat is our head of production Naomi Sengal is our executive

assistant thanks to our digital team Elijah Cohn Hayley Jones Ben Heffkoat Mia Kellman

Carol Pellavi David Tolls and Ryan Young our production staff is proudly unionized with the

writers Guild of America East

hey lover leave listeners it's me the titular John Love it here to tell you that I'm coming back

to Washington DC for Love it or leave it live at the Lincoln theater on April 23rd that's right

spring in DC is all about cherry blossoms and Love it or leave it bringing you a stack lineup of

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we're so excited to be back DC it's a tradition now that we come around the time of the

corresponds and or even though the correspondison or really no longer has comedians that

I believe there's going to be some kind of a magician or a mind mind melder yes a magician yeah

my I'm a mentalist a mentalist because I guess Trump wouldn't Trump's also going yeah

yeah yeah that's it there yeah there yeah there's there's there's a there's a mental case

and then and Trump is also going there's tickets won't last long there's someone pretty fast so

get yours now while you still can at crooked dot com slash events very excited for the DC show

got some big guests some pretty exciting babies crooked dot com slash events