1226: BEST OF: Eileen Hahn: Scaling from 2 Million to 5 Million

0:00Welcome to a well-designed business. My name is Luanne Igarra and I'm so glad you found this podcast. Together with my husband Vince and our partner Bill, we have grown our company WindowWorks from the ground up. So I know and I understand the challenges you face in running your interior design business. I also know that your talent alone isn't enough to ensure your success. So on this podcast we talk about strategies and practical steps to help you grow your business. But make no mistake about it. We have our share of fun here too. Mixed in with those aha moments that I love so much. This isn't fluff. Nobody has time for that. Whether you are a new interior designer or a seasoned designer, I am here to help you create and to manage the kind of interior design firm that you dream of. It's straight talk and it's

1:00action. Are you ready? Let's get started. Hi, welcome to a well-designed business. Before we get to today's episode I want to let you know that this show is a best-of-show episode. That is when we bring back some of the most talked about most downloaded episodes from the last 10 plus years on a well-designed business. These are the episodes that built businesses that sparked aha moments that turn listeners like you into action takers and a quick heads up. These episodes are airing just as they originally did. That means the music might sound familiar or it might sound a little vintage. That means the event dates that are discussed are going to have been long gone and the offers that are mentioned in the episodes may or may no longer be valid. But the insights still 100% valid still golden. So whether this is your first time hearing this episode or your fifth time, there's something in this conversation for you right now in this season of your business. One more thing before we go.

2:06This episode features a guest who is also a board member in my boardroom for creatives. The boardroom for creatives is my curated expert platform where you can book a 50 minute one-on-one session with a vetted expert across sales, marketing, operations, finance, or leadership. Every board member is handpicked for their skill and their expertise and the results that they deliver. It's not simply a directory of business consultants. You can be assured when you book a board member you are going to get a session with someone who has already solved the exact problem you're facing right now. Keep that in mind as you listen to today's show because if you get value from this particular guest, if you resonate with this guest, understand you can go directly to the boardroom for creatives and book a session with them. Head over to boardroom4creatives.com to learn more about today's guest but also to see the full roster of board members and book your next session. Alrighty, let's get on with today's show.

3:09Hi, welcome to a well-designed business. It's Power Talk Friday. Today, Eileen Hahn, my cousin, is back on the show. You heard her originally in episode number 363 where she talked with us about having a plan for building an exceptional team and she's the HR whisperer who was one of the co-authors in the first Power Talk Friday experts book and she was with us at Luan Live and she also has a chapter in my upcoming volume two of the Power Talk Friday experts book. Okay, if you're interested in the other books, you can go to LuanNagara.com forward slash book. Alright, now where calling all of my hashtag season designers and my new designation, I'm going to start leaning into hashtag C level designers, not like C like the ocean sea but C like capital C like C sweet, okay? Because when your business is comparable to a C

4:11sweet level corporation with a C sweet level, in my mind, this is where you have all kinds of roles. You have a CFO. You might have yourself as the CEO. You might have a chief marketing officer and whether you call them all these fancy C level names or not is not relevant to me. But what I've learned is that when you start to build businesses that are two, three, four, five, and six million dollars, you fill out these different roles within your company. So I'm going to lean into this because I am learning and working with a lot more of you at this level. It's exciting and I want to make sure that we bring content that really fills out for you too, okay? And I want to say for those of you who are my hashtag rising designers, you know, maybe you're not at the million dollar level yet, let alone the four or five million. Keep listening because if I had no needs things 30 years ago, who knows where window works would be today? I know for sure I'd have a lot less wrinkles and I would have had a lot more sleep,

5:14okay? Because here's the thing, going from two to five million is not easy. It doesn't happen by accident, okay? Intentional is the name of the game when scaling at this level. I've seen it firsthand at window works. I'm never going to tell you that it was easy to build business from the ground up to three million. I'm not that that's an absurd statement, right? You probably heard the show yesterday where I told you how hard it's been the last three months, okay? But what I've learned is going from three to five, the intentional things that you have to do to achieve that are completely, it's like somebody just changed all the rules, okay? So that's what this is about. Eileen has a superpower in this area. She is consistently working with companies at this size and much larger, quite frankly. So very excited to start to bring her expertise more to our world so that we can all benefit and grow from it, all right? And of course, let's not forget to thank our sponsor article.com. You know that article. You know I have to

6:16tell you, is your place for mid-century inspired furniture, right? If you have a project that calls for the clean sleek lines in that Scandinavian style and this is the place to go article.com, okay? I would love for you to open up your trade account by going to welldesigned.article.com, all right? And of course what we know is that if you've got a couple of little areas in a space that need to be filled out and that you've got to get on to a project quickly, you can get furniture from article in days, not weeks, not months. And this is very helpful. And also too, I keep reminding you, we have so many clients now that are just rearranging areas in their house to accommodate homeschooling and working from home and everything else. And article is the place to address these needs quickly easily, reliably, okay? So welldesigned.article.com, right? Now looking forward to this conversation with Eileen.

7:20Hi Eileen, thanks so much for coming back to a well-designed business today. I am so happy to be here on the way on this is so much fun. We haven't even started them already laughing. Stop, right? So here's the thing. What I am so super excited about is that this, you know, I know what an absolute genius you are with helping companies just really manage their team be the best they can be, find the right people and then really help nurture and create employees that love what they do and do it with love and just really building that team. But what I know is since you've worked with us, you know, really you've been my conciliary for more than 25 years on an ad hoc basis, right? But for the last two and a half almost now, really one-on-one working with us at our at Window Works and and

8:21helping me also with Luana Garagaine, it's there is just something beyond what has to happen when you want to scale your business at the upper levels like that two to five million three to five million. It is all the things that you thought like hey I've got this down. I'm pretty good business person all sort of go what haven't I even get to where I am because all of a sudden I feel like I'm not doing anything right right? Right. It's just nuts and so working with you the last several years, I thought that this would be a great conversation because we do have lots of interior design firms we have and I'll just back up we have lots of content for the design firms that are solo and want to go to three people or are two or three people and want to go to five but it is harder to come by an expert at your level that on a regular basis this is their bread and

9:24butter that helps firms in the multiple millions and even to billions is your credibility there but we're going to talk about this today that that bear of scaling a firm where do you want to start us out with how do you want to start framing the conversation for us Eileen well first I'm really excited that over the past two years I've been working with you know dozens now of design firms and that I'm wanting to grow and scale their business whether they be one person or have a staff of five or ten we've talked about how can I grow my business and so I've had the opportunity to work with them and to see how they structure and design their firms how they add different crucial positions and what some of the challenges they've had in growing and also what's really working so I'm very excited to talk with you today about that what we've discovered and also to help other firms do that and kind of where do you start right so the starting place I like to tell and someone says I want to grow I want to get bigger or I want I have a big vision of having a big firm someday or

10:27I just you know want to hit three million five million whatever that is I say let's start with some clarity about what you want because to just say I want to grow and hit another number is not enough right you really got to start with what's your vision where do you want to take this because we're going to strategically think about and analyze how to get your business to that place but if it's it's vague then there's like what's the vague action plan to get there right I yes I know that we want to grow great let's do five million right right why do I don't know it's not a good it's so funny and so true but the the thing I love about it is that there are duplicatable things that you need to do in order to take a firm let's set let's center on this number of say three to five million and I want to suggest that we settle on this area

11:29because you and I have just as the time we're recording this ended one master mind of two million plus interior design firms and we just starting our second and third master mind with two million plus interior design firms and for the most part these are business owners that want to go to four and five million and my experience with window works being a three million dollar gross firm and us looking at going to the five million you know informs the discussion as far as what I do as the co-leader of this master mind and what I know from my thirty nine years in business but also as your guinea pig and as your coach for the last two years and then also the person who still legitimately sits at your knee and still learns from you and what you bring to the table based on your twenty five years experience so let's for our conversation today talk about that type of designer out there that is doing the two to three and wants to

12:35grow and how we help them break it apart to analyze that and put it to a plan right that sounds great so the first step I would say again in coming back to that vision piece is what do you really want your firm to be and sometimes people start out when they're just in that one to two million zone of just kind of taking any and all business they can so if we're going to start formulating a plan for growth and we want to go to three to five I've say what kind of firm do you want to be what do you like doing what do you good at doing what what's the market segment that you're reaching or that are really responding to you in your designs you know what parts of the business give you joy and what's really define what that vision of the firm that you want to be looks like based on those kinds of things and then let's articulate it both in a compelling vision statement so that people want to join and rally behind you because you want to team up people that are fired up to get to that vision not just you trying to

13:35get there right so you have a kind of a vision statement perhaps that's a very compelling now I have a couple examples for you with some design firms as well as kind of your numeric goal as well right in terms of three million four million five million time million whatever that may be so let me share with you a couple of examples of some compelling visions I found one is by inspired interiors at a Chicago and their statement is that they curate spaces that embolden you to enjoy life in new and empowering ways and that embolden word it's just like wow it like it encourages me or gives me the confidence to enjoy life and so the people that are going to join that team are going to feel like they're a part of something special and meaningful in life right it's not just I'm an I work for interior design firm and we want to hit five million right right right a little a little a little different and then Blakely interiors out of Rhode Island their their vision is to inspire the world to live vibrantly in their homes and in their everyday lives and I'm a

14:39kind of a vibrant person so that word just like I want to go like look online with their firm right yeah it's higher than because I am like full of energy and vibrant that's like my middle name right so so start with that concept of like who are you and what are you about that's special and that people are going to want to be a part of right and that really defines you in the segment whether it's you know commercial residential construction whatever that is right design build and then attach that first numerical for yourself three four five million so that's kind of step one so let me let me just talk about that for a moment because I want to pull it apart so what I love about this is you know we had an episode a few months ago with Laurel Smith and she described she was at Luan live with us I lean and she described how she had read the first chapter of my book which the first book which talked about really having this come to Jesus moment with yourself what is my firm what do I want it to be how do I

15:40want it to to to present in the world what do I stand for right and she actually shared on the show that she had read that and she literally said she thought to herself okay I'll get to that later and she kept coming you know she finished the rest of the book and then she said after she came to Luan Luan live and she was talking with everyone there in listening to all the different speakers and so forth like that then she had the aha moment that she was floundering and back and forth on starting out and doing staging and doing this and changing her mind because she had not had that let me set up my vision mission in goals and so it was kind of interesting because I said to her I said you read it and thought I was just like putting fluff in there right she could see a kind of like right and so so my thing is is it when you describe of course I know Janelle Fattopoulos I don't know if you've met her at high point but Janelle has been on the show she is the principal of Blakely interior design and she is vibrant and she is just physically a shining

16:44personality right and so to what you're pointing I want to connect for everybody here is when the principal when you as the principal decide what you want to present to the world Eileen's point is you will attract not only those clients which we talk about all the time but you will attract the type of employee that that resonates with and then that employee comes every day to the point of inspired interiors in Chicago in bold and empowered and feeling like they're bought in on the vision right that's your point right yeah love it so I'm clear on my vision right then I have to look at you know well two different things there's the people that I'm going to need to help me get there and then there's also the sales strategy right that's going to that's going to get me there from the the financial numeric perspective which one do you want to go to first let's do let's just say I'll strategy let's take my first look okay there you go so so if I know

17:47that I'm doing these activities right using these marketing techniques or sales techniques and it's producing you know two million or 1.5 million and I know I want to get to three four five what am I going to do differently and when am I going to focus on to get those numbers up and what companies do as they get larger and larger and the ones that have been very successful and growing are really clear on these are the strategies that they measure I do these activities and this is the results right so if I'm putting things on social media or I'm doing certain going to certain meetings or appointments or whatever those are they actually know right what they'll get what we will reap from those different sources and how much revenue they can on average can expect from those different sources and so they need to increase their activities to increase their sales or they need to try new sales strategies that'll be more fruitful in getting more business I love that so we look at what has worked for us so far we are a successful firm we're probably doing two or three million

18:47what has worked for us before and is there a way that we can lean into it at a higher level a more efficient way or just at a wider level right to create more or is there part in there that we have to put it to the side and create another different way because this way is going to max out at this or something like that right it's like basically look at what we've done can it take us to the next level or is this this this this activity maxed out exactly and so and you always want to look for new strategies so even if you've got you know one or two tried and true right that you know every year pay off and you can expect a million from this strategy you know half a million from that strategy you and maybe another half a million from this strategy you still need to come up with and try some new strategies right that can that might even better than your initial ones and this is where

19:48you know when you masterminds I think it's fascinating because we get to find out from other people right what's working what strategies are working it's so funny because I was just about to say that to you I was waiting for you to start to stop your sentence and it that way I was like well that's what we learned in the masterminds how exciting like one designer shared her three strategies for reaching three million and another designer had three different methods for reaching it and now all of a sudden it was so clear oh I can adopt that one I can adopt that one and add that to the ways that I generate generate revenue for my firm it was it was powerful right yes definitely and you can get a strength and confidence that you'll be able to hit these numbers and actually achieve this growth when you when you really connect it to a strategy when you're just hoping that what happens is initially people do everything and hope the business comes in right and then all the said and it's like no I want to be more I want to be more strategic about it and so that's when you

20:48say okay these strategies I know if I do these strategies every year I'm going to get this from it why because for the past five years I have right right and then I know that these other firms are using these strategies that get it or getting them to those numbers wow maybe I should try some of those strategies or maybe I should take one of my strategies that's producing you know 1.5 million and do more of it right this is all part of that process of analysis and this is why you know taking the time to strategize on your business and to really examine it is critical to you know positive effect of growth right and the thing what I what what has to be stated here is when you're at this level in business the strategies are not vague the strategies are not unknown when we work with designers that are doing two and three million dollars we're not developing from scratch all revenue generating activities we're analyzing we're encouraging them and we're working

21:49with them and you when you're working with us at window works we're saying what are you currently doing so now what my point in that is is if you're one of my beloved baby designers and you haven't even hit a hundred K yet you might not have a strategy in place yet is the point but when you get to two and three and four million you have been implementing certain tools certain things in order to generate revenue and they have been working you have probably discarded five out of every five that have worked for you but you don't generate three and four million dollars a year without particular revenue generating things being positive and being productive and so that's just that's what like I said with a conversation is focusing on that sweet spot of understanding that we know you have things that you're doing but have you taken the step that's the next step that I've learned as that three million dollar revenue business yeah for 39 years things have worked at

22:51window works but have we ever dissected it take it at a part and said what has worked to what level how much revenue does this one bring in versus this one versus this one this is that next level of business analysis that you're talking about correct right and for the for the smaller firms if you're you know a million or less what you can start to do is really get clear on tracking where's your business coming from so every year I look at who are my clients this year how much do I revenue do I do with each client and where do they come from where they from referral and if it was a referral from who right or did they you know get come find me online social media right so start tracking that and and actually you can even look back if you look back for the past three to five years and say where did my customers come from and where did my highest dollar volume customers come from right yes because maybe if it is referral then then wow I can explode with a whole bunch of different just referral sourcing ways to generate business I've done my business

23:56for 20 years from referrals that's my biggest source right of how I get my business I have other methods that I look at and track but spending time and quality with the people that you've already done business with that know and like you and senior work and then how spend it in the more time in connections you have with them the more they refer you to other people right exactly exactly and I have to say I do find that it is a step that is sometimes overlooked is the tracking where your business comes from I had a recent conversation with a designer that I'm coaching and what was interesting was that at the beginning of the conversation the assertion that she was holding on to was that the things that I have done to generate new clients have not worked and she listed the four or five things that she has done over the last two years and then I said

24:57well how many clients have you had in just 20 you know one year like one like 2019 to 2020 right now and it was however many clients and I said well let's just pick them apart because it was maybe 20 20 clients right so I said just take it let's take a minute where did this one come from where did this one come from where did this one and it was an exercise we had to see how to think about it she had a reflect and then when it was done I added it up and I was like do you understand that 70% of your current clients that for the last calendar year came from these two activities that a half hour ago you said to me don't work for you like it was interesting and that's that's the thing it's that it's the taking the time to analyze it as opposed to just thinking oh that's probably not working so I'm going to stop doing it and this holds true whether you're doing 100K a year or you're doing 5 million a year what are the best revenue generating activities and do we lean in do we build them out do we duplicate them in some way how what do we do but it comes

26:03to your initial point of analyzing it I love it right so every year really have in as a minimum a minimum of you know two to three days of strategic analysis on your business quarterly is also good to build in those quarterly analysis points as well but this is where you're really looking at you know what's working what's not what am I what am I going to spend my time on next time but also keep in mind with the changes in the world right now we have to keep our eye always on what's working and new strategies because right the world is changing businesses changing and so there might be a new strategy that could explode your business that's because of how we're doing business today you know virtually or whatever right could be a new product or revenue in a new stream or new technique so absolutely I mean the the pandemic has changed a lot of the things in the way we do business and you can't ignore it you can't put your head in the sand and and it's not all bad I mean we experienced in our mastermind all six of us but from the beginning we had the

27:10hibi gb share that of us that our businesses were going to collapse and by the end all six of us had at least hired at least one new employee because we were so busy right right yeah so and then that's and once you have your strategy right for like I want to hit these numbers I'm going to have the revenue streams and in fact in our masterminds we have a number of people I have number of clients right now that are in that situation where they have more business than they can do that's right there's say we're I'm overloaded now we're over capacity now as a staff I still have inquiries coming in I can't get to now they'll say how do I grow now like how do I keep up with that right so our next question around that is who do what what staff do I need to add right if I'm going to grow and hit those numbers or if I'm exploding at the seams how do I go about that process I had two people leave me a message about that exact question this week I know I need to hire I'm looking at the pipeline ahead I'm experiencing where I'm at now and I need to hire and I need to

28:16figure out who the next hire is right yep so so let's talk about like how do you start that process it starts with the principal who is the principal what's their personality and style what are their strengths what do they bring to the table because depending upon what that person's strengths are you're going to need different players right so if you're just adding one person or if you're adding well you know you're you're already a firm that has a couple of people you got to think about yourself and what you need so if you're a strong leader with low attention to detail and you know you need a someone that can execute the details and and the design the technical aspects and that's their strength and you're hiring for that if you're someone that's already got a number of players in place but you want to grow another million or two and you need another full design team a another experienced designer and an experienced assistant designer that can work independently to execute you know a million to two million dollars of your business that's a different kind of hire

29:18and another um consideration would be wow we have this business and if we added an expediator that could just do all of the ordering tracking right for accuracy and logistics with you know all of our products and that was off everybody's plate and it was centralized to one expediator then we all have more time to handle more business and more clients so this is where the strategic thinking comes in place right or I have one firm that says I'm the only one that that tells everyone what to do everybody else just does the work I need another leader like me and so it's like okay so then let's talk about how to hire another leader like you and they and it's not always easy to find and then of course if you ask them in an interview just you know do you take charge and lead projects of it they'll say sure everybody says yes exactly they really have a leadership skills just like everyone says they have detail orientation right everybody about me I own it no man not your girl

30:23but it is true it is something that everyone I mean almost to a person will say and I think it's you know for I for me I just I'm done pretending and thinking and hoping it's not my thing it's not my jam and so I know and that has been a lot through your help through the years understanding you have this set loop go get somebody with that set right and it's deeper than it is deeper than we always talk about it starts with okay it does start with the things that you just like to do the things that you are good at doing and the things that you don't like to do and the things that you're not good at doing that that's a great exercise to start with there's no question but it does go deeper because that's where I have with you know nine million hours of working with you uncovered with custom window treatments I needed to be detail driven I needed to pay attention to the details

31:23but and so I would say oh this is a skill set that I have and then I would be upset with myself when I wasn't consistent all of the time on it or I would drop a ball and it wasn't until that you pointed out to me just because you could make yourself do it Luan doesn't mean you're happy doing it and therefore it doesn't mean that you should be expecting yourself to do it and that's that transition to scaling your team to what you just said it starts with you who are you what are you good at what are your strengths and what are the the who are the chess pieces you need around you so that you can now look at your strategic goals that you've set in your vision mission and values to build it out right right and one one principle I'm working with is said I'd like to be able to step out a little bit I'd like to be able to just work on new business generation kind of oversee

32:24design concepts but but not be responsible right for for full projects or be the project manager lead on projects and so then it's like okay so then we're hiring so long that can actually be the lead right so that you can step into a new role so it's understanding who you are and then also saying well I know I can like I've one said I'm a cad expert I'm great at that but I don't want to keep doing that right I want to move out of that role I don't want to be the only one of my firm that knows cad doesn't work right and so again you're you're thinking about who are you and also where do you want to be with this growth so that you can think about who do you need then because sometimes you need someone to replace you that is similar to you because you want to move into a new role and you can't move into the new role if that's your goal if you've only put people in place that don't have like for your to your example somebody who is a leader not just says I'm a leader but is actually a leader and can see the vision and execute and you know manage a

33:27project without being told do this do that because you know we need all types of people in our business we need the people who literally I've just recently made a new hire and what she said to me is I'm really good at marketing I'm really good at executing the marketing plan she said but I'm not that great at seeing the big picture vision and saying to you don't don't look don't look to me she said to say I think this is where you should take this in six months and I said that's okay sweetie I got that locked out we're going to be good I'll tell us where we're going you tell us how did you get there in the in the weeds right so you right and who knows in three years from now I might need the person that says Luhan you're off doing what you're doing we're creating where the marketing needs to go in a year from now and I just look at it and and okay it right so it's understanding to your point where you are now as the owner of your business and not only what do

34:29you need but where do you see yourself so that you can set yourself up for success with with with all the right people right yeah so so once you decide that like I want to hire this person so you've done the analysis you looked at yourself you looked at where you want to go you looked at your current team and you really want to take a close look at your team before you decide to just add another person are all the players you currently have effective in their roles are they in the right place do they actually have the skills to do what they need I've seen people because I you don't like utilize the predictive index personality assessment where they have someone in a role that doesn't really have those core skills they have someone doing detailed work running projects or doing project management that they're they're strength isn't really following up on details and see right and keeping track of all the details so again before you do that hire and make that decision really do a deep look into your staff as well are they in the right place are they the right people

35:29do they have the right skills before we decide to add as we successfully grow otherwise you're kind of wasting money and and people see that's because when they when they'll do assess their whole team utilizing some type of instrument like that they'll go oh wow yeah now I know and many times they'll see they have great people in exactly the right spot and then it's like I can feel confident now right adding this new member with these skills yay great right and and that is one of the toughest things I know that you and I have experienced as we've coached some of these high level firms together we've done some really in depth coaching with some of the firms and of course throughout the experience with the mastermind that is one of the that is one of the toughest things to face when you have a team member that in your heart in your gut your voice knew that they weren't really performing really wonderfully but you respect them you like them their work is good but it's just it's almost just like there's just this thing that's off and then when they you know you present

36:35them with the the PI and we read it we're like well that's why right but it's so hard as a business owner to have that look in the mirror moment and say because we've had a situation where there was no place to move the person around in the firm and it's like this person and it happened with us at window works as well right you just kept saying this you know it's like Sesame Street which one of these things doesn't belong there's three apples and an orange right it's like which one of these is not like the others and you've just have looked at us and said you love this person you want this person to be good at it this person wants to be good at this job because this person values you guys as owners but they are not set up for this right it's so hard it's so hard but and my heart was out to people because when I see someone that's struggling in a job that's not the right fit what I think about is there's a place where they can use their superpowers and

37:39their strengths where they're going to be so happy where they're going to be welcomed with open arms and appreciated for their natural strengths versus trying to make them self do something that it's not easy and hard and it doesn't come naturally to them I know so I just think of it with such an open loving heart because I've you know been in human resources and these kinds of things for you know 25 years and I've I've had to do a lot of terminations and make changes and a lot of organizations restructures and things and I've seen a lot of people move to some place where they're happy where they're relaxed where they're not stressed and where they're appreciated and I can tell you really sincerely everyone has a place where they where they can be them natural self utilize their natural skills and abilities and be appreciated and be exceptional at it it's just finding the right environment the right job right that's aligned with with why they're here and their purpose on the planet right and and they can be happy and thrive and love their

38:39job and be appreciated yeah it is I I know it to be true I know it to be true that not only because I have experienced it both on the good and the bad side but I also know it based on your body of work and I know that you have had dozens and dozens and dozens of situations where you're just looking at an owner of a company whether you it's a company that you work with that does 10 billion or one million and you're saying to them it's not a right fit and when the thing about it what it is is that it's it's it's it's by the time they've worked for you that long you're emotionally invested in them and the thing is is that they not it's we don't always get lucky enough for that person to see it already like we don't have the crystal ball to tell them it's almost like you want to take them to the little crystal ball and say here look here this is

39:41gonna really hurt and this is uncomfortable but look ahead in six months when you find this next job and I'm still gonna be the person who loves you I'm still gonna be your friend we're gonna be colleagues forever but you're gonna be so happy here you're in the wrong role and that's a tough tough thing and I'll tell you why it's also tough it's only tough because I'm getting very woo woo and very emotional about it here but it's also tough on a very practical level because when you're running a business that's doing three four five million dollars you're moving at the speed of light and you're just like what's wrong with this person why aren't they performing and oh my god they're not right now I if I have to replace them I don't have anybody to do the job so there's both the the woo woo feeling side and there's also the real like oh my goodness this train is running off the track side right right and and that's why you want this is such a great opportunity again if you're in this place of thinking about growth think of this is the last time you'll be able to assess your staff so that every person that you have now fits and is utilizing their strengths

40:41and superpowers and every time you make a hire you're gonna make it slow and you're gonna make it from a very utilizing and effective hiring selection process and you're gonna just hire people that have the natural strengths and skills and not just someone that wants a job right but someone that's like I love to do the details or I love to do the creative design or I love to you know track and measure whatever those things are it's like it's natural for them I mean there are people that don't like to pick up the phone and they're and then much prefer to email and there are people that hand me the phone I'll talk to anybody about anything right not a problem easy for me you want me to go in and meet a hundred people at a mixer not a problem right so you want the right people that's and they're happy to go do the job you want them to do and if you've got a fast-paced office then you want people that love fast-paced I know a lot of people hire people that like slow and steady and that's great but make sure that the environment they're working in is that so that

41:43they can be comfortable and thrive right otherwise they're kind of a nervous wreck right no it's true we you know the experience with Anne and had to you know you know that story we've told the story where at the end when she was leaving and I had asked her I'm cutting through the the short version of the story but great employee seven years gave us two months notice was just moving out of state and she had become so valuable and so important to us that I realized that she had long surpassed her original job description which I've also since learned was not a good thing that I should have keep could still kept revising it and getting clarity on it every single year but she had long surpassed the the job description and I remember saying to her when she gave me her notice and we had a meeting the following I said would you do me a huge favor I said you have you have come so integral to us here would you just please start to keep a word document or excel spreadsheet anything you want of all the things that you do that you really realize that you just started doing and we just let you do and we now you know don't even think about that you do it but I'm going to need

42:46to know these things because I don't even remember half of them what they are and I'm going to have to make a new hire and I need to evaluate this and so the end of the story was that her very last day we're all cheersing her we're happy but but and I went wait a minute and the whole room we're all there whole room oh where's your list where's your list oh I left it in the computer don't worry about it you'll find it no no get the list no Lou it's in the computer you'll find it don't worry we don't have to do that today like and let's look at the list right and the punch line is you know the first one is this the second one is this the third one Luanne is not yelling like where everybody cracks up and I'm like and what does that mean and and was is is she still on the planet um a soft spoken midwestern lady and she said well Lou it took me a lot of months to realize that you weren't yelling and I'm like dumbfounded everybody's hysterical and the reality was is that Anne is slow and steady and Luanne is crazy and fast and for Anne it took her many

43:51months to just realize that my pace felt like I was yelling it felt like just a conversation was this and you know I'm just talking you know I'm saying and so but I've learned since then through your coaching and counseling that depending on the position like you would not want a direct report to Luanne that doesn't get that because that person is going to constantly feel to your words terrified like do you they call me the hurricane you know they okay the hurricane tier right and I'm not doing it on purpose I'm not even like I said like I Luanne is not yelling that's just Luanne is intense and so but this is an important key element when you are going to scale you are team because if you're not clear on like you said who you are what you do how you do it your strengths as a person as a leader as a as a as a principle it's very hard to build the right

44:53team in under you that can thrive because that's our goal we want everyone to thrive right we want everyone to love their job right I mean and you can because I've seen organizations like this in the most successful companies that I've worked with over the years everyone literally loves what they do it's fun enjoyable they're good at it and and I'm sure many of you out there are on teams like this where you just feel like yay high five with everybody we're all good we're all you know we're great we're doing it we're making it happen and you have like this pride and camaraderie and appreciation for the people you work with and that's the kind of teams you're going to create and those the ones when you grow you want to grow with more of that and so how do you do that is what is to really clearly define what is this job I'm going to add let's really take the time to make a detailed job description of the major functions of this responsibility what's look at in relation to the other team members and their job description that's right and then let's look at based on this job requirements what is this person need what kind of skills and experience so they

45:57need to be successful in this role and then you start your hiring process by by interviewing people and evaluating people specific to the selection criteria to need to to successfully execute this role and so it's a very thoughtful process and this is critical because when smaller firms every hire is critical the personality impacts the team impacts your work your customers and so you really want to take some time to understand if you're interested in growth you know what how do you create how do you create an effective selection process how do you hire someone exceptional there's actual methodology to do it and to utilize those tools so that once you do hire them wow I got the right person on the seat now we can just continue to go on and part of the continuing to go on is really working with that person and that's kind of our next step from here is that training developing and working with that person so that they grow into your firm versus okay I hired

46:58him I lean I just had a call last week well I hired that great person with the perfect you know profile and background just like we said and now what they're kind of making some mistakes I'm like well okay they're new you know well they've worked in the industry for years that's okay they're learning in your process your way you know are you meeting with them are you coaching them and then the question comes up well do I have to their experience I thought because they had experience maybe I didn't have to is it okay I feel like I'd be micro-managing as no you want to start with a close right coaching and training even with someone that you're hiring it's an experienced designer or design lead in your firm they need to learn your process and systems your culture and so you're meeting with that person regularly and closely until they build the success right so to give you that example whether it's you're hiring a new design assistant even though they have experience or you're hiring a new designer to act to join your firm even though they have experience you're like well they

47:59know how to do the job but your close time training them over the next 60 days will pay off so that in 90 days you've seen them do the job successfully so you're actually almost holding their hand watching their work giving them constant feedback on right on the first few projects to that you end them see what success looks like then you can give them the space and what happens sometimes is that people will hire someone and they'll just kind of leave them on their own I mean they'll give them an orientation and some training but there be resident about giving the the continual feedback on you know what's working what's not working where they're going off or coming across too strong or not listening it is it is so critical to do this to use your word it's absolutely critical it is hard to do it though I I have to say it is hard to do it because again at this level of revenue there are a lot of balls in the air and I have done it Ileensway and I have done it my way and I'm telling you doing it

49:07Ileensway is the way to go because that not only the initial outreach process that you do with the job description and the job title and the the deliverables of the project and the type of the of the job and the type of personality that you're looking for and identifying all of that that is just we've had two hires in the last year that to Ileens word did did slow and it's painful to do it slow but it is so much better and there are times when I'm like this person is great like personal is good this and Ileen has said to me the PIs off PIs off I'm like ah not that far off you like it's off and I'm like okay and she just to wait and to keep looking for the right person and then that extra level of support that you think and I know what you're talking about Ileen I know the type of design firms that you've been working with in the level that these

50:08principles are at and we think that when we hire an entry level person okay that seems rational to us that we have to spend time training or someone in our firm is going to spend time training but we think that when we hire higher level people to your your example we think they're going to come in and do it and this is a mistake that we make as business owners is to avoid this and to put off this weekly check-in but I will tell you that it is hard to execute so I sit in your shoes and Ileen what do I say to you are you kidding me I have to have another meeting this week with the nut you know like I'm like oh my god like I would also have to do is have meetings all week individually with every employee and you're like well if you want them all to be productive and happy and and let me share a few positive examples for you up here okay two examples come to mind first of all this concept of having these clearly defined job descriptions and guidelines

51:09team members you think well it sounds nice but who's got time and things like that right well Corey Damon Jenkins' firm has those down solid and he has like what each each role is clearly defined with expectations and and you know performance expectations and evaluation and so that everyone's really clear on their role and also if they want to move into a new role or grow and develop what that new role looks like and the skills that are needed in those roles and then Martha Herron Terriers Kate was telling me that part of their green culture and what they feel like really makes them successful is this idea of kind of employee development and this commitment to their employees and they actually every week have a one-on-one with their employees to provide both positive and constructive feedback and coaching and that's like that's just a core they said that's who we are that's what we're about we know that's what makes us successful and what makes our employees successful so they're committed to that so really think about that they've made

52:10a commitment to it you can do and these kinds of firms do very well right and they know that's part of their secret sauce of what's making them successful right well you've you've named two rock stars there's no question I mean both Corey Damon and Kate run exceptional businesses truly in their own right completely different types of firms but absolutely buttoned up I've had interaction with Corey and extended team members and just so on point and of course Kate I just you know talked to her constantly and to just hear her describe as you said the individual meetings and she manages a huge team 2025 people this is not this is the point that it is so hard to imagine carving that time out but I know from your experience and from the stories that you've shared with us and just the the witness of the women that the men that we've seen in our masterminds

53:14this is where and how you scale your company because you cannot do five or eight or ten million alone it it requires a team to do it and the team has to be on the same page and that's what everything that you know Eileen is describing here it's all of the mechanisms and it's all of the processes and it's all of the thoughts and the energy that you put into this back end that enables you to duplicate it employee after employee but to not just duplicate it and have a bunch of robots running around but have people who believe and align with what your beliefs and goals align and that's where we create the happiness in the creating of the firm as well right right right and I'm so excited that you know your new book coming out in November you know I privileged and honored to be an author of one of the chapters and I'm excited because in this chapter

54:17I take examples like we've been talking about in this session of interior design firms that are using these principles and are having success with that are finding that these are the keys to their growth and their success and so when we talk about things like oh yeah take the time to do the strategic planning every year and do the quarterly reviews you know you have Laura you interior designs who says hey I credit our success to our discipline in doing that every quarter and annually right so these things we're sharing today and also you'll find it in in in the chapter are really tied specifically to interior design firms that have succeeded and grown and why and how they've done it yeah no I know it's so exciting I'm so excited too and you know the thing is one of the last things that I want to just mention is that you have coming out in the fall available you know an answer to one of the big pain points that we experience as business owners and I

55:21know that you have put the time and energy into developing this because you have worked with so many interior design firms over the last couple of years since we first introduced you to the audience and it's what you've done is you put together five products now really the job description you know for what someone does in your firm is I have come to learn through you is absolutely essential it cannot you cannot hire somebody without it you can't evaluate somebody without it you can't you can't assess their performance good or bad without having it clearly in front of both you and them of what is expected of them to do but you know easier said than done well what is the job description and how do you do that and what is all the different things and then from the job description we've worked over and over again creating the job post that attracts that person because for example just like you know Janelle has of you know in her words the the vibrant colors somebody

56:26else might have you know I'm always making every fun of the coastal beach shake right but the point is that there are people who want each when they come to design and it's the same when you hire the job description we put out for the data entry clerk literally is light years different from the job description that we put out when we're hiring a salesperson right I mean right everyone's customized exactly and and so your expediter job description is not going to be hey busy into your design firm hiring an expediter we love you know this at the other thing come join our fabulous team it can't be the description is the exact same except the name is expediter junior designer senior designer because just like you make copy on your website to attract your ideal client you put copy in your job posting to attract the ideal candidate and so this is another component of it and then finally the interview guide right is what kinds of questions to ask and you you you described it

57:29a few moments ago to me off air that you know so you avoid hiring a friend that you just because you like them right I mean right right so it's interesting you you need to make sure that and sometimes well people can get all the way to this step where they like hire so they've got the good experience they've attracted the right person they got the right background skills from their you know assessment and then the person interviews and it's just and they don't know what to ask they don't know how to really dig in to get do they have those skills and and and let's really see what your portfolio looks like or what's see the type of work you've done or let's have you do a work sample here what you know on site or you know take one home and so knowing what questions to ask and what skills you're actually evaluating with the rating scale pays off tremendously in making a successful hire and what people tend to do is they tend to hire people they just like so they get in the door and they're like I like that person they were really nice and you're like yes that's good and we want to hire someone that we like it is nice right but we also want to make

58:32sure that they have the skills and that we're looking at the skill decision as well as the fit right because to me part of the like factor is the culture fit right if my culture is high energy and vibrancy and positive attitude then I obviously the person I do want to like them so hopefully they'll have the high energy and vibrancy and positive attitude but they'll also know CAD or they'll also have experience doing you know modern designs or they also have you know these kinds of programming skills or attention to detail etc right so you want to make sure you're looking at all of it and you're and you're making a decision on whether to hire someone or not and that you're taking your time because again people will do one round they're like I placed an ad I went through you know 50 resumes I interviewed three people or four people and and guess what they didn't find one okay that's round one I know exactly when you're hired someone you're looking to hire someone exceptional you know it's gonna probably take longer it could be the first round I'm always

59:34up for that right but it might be the third week after going through more rounds right and that's okay because it's worth it for the right person it's gonna stay with you a long time right so is it so is I mean we are recent hire with Catherine I mean you know of course Lisa does the initial screening but I think she looked at over 300 resumes literally probably had more than 30 phone interviews before she called it down to four people for me to interview four from starting at 300 so it is important to take all these steps and of course if you're at that level of revenue it might be worth it to outsource the recruitment process to you get to the four decent ones because that is so time consuming and I would much rather trade my money for that whole pre-process than my time honestly personally but the thing about it is is that it comes with having the proper setup

1:00:41from the beginning and I love that you've done this because you have put together five products that designers can purchase and one is this set of information the sample job post the job description and the interview guide for each of the positions designer assistant designer expediter bookkeeper and office administrator and I know I know first hand this is gold right here even that interview guide with the rating that you had when we interviewed I Lisa interviewed Catherine I interviewed her on the phone I interviewed her in person and then we brought her into interview to collectively with Vin Bill and myself and the final thing that was so impactful for us was the rating after the interview you said to us sit down immediately don't leave the interview table each of you take the rating sheet answer the questions quietly privately and then we compare them

1:01:45and what happened when we compared them we were we're we're all we were all the same fours and fives and the same places we were ones or twos or three we were in unison and it just was like oh so clear she's our hire right all right yeah and she's amazing and every day we all just like and what's interesting every day we all say wow powering through someone who did a really good job but was sort of a wrong fit and the difference for someone that's a really good job and does and is the right fit is night and day it's night and day right yeah it's night and day for for them and for you and for your team yes exactly exactly so I mean we go to ileanhahn.com what's the website that's it ileanbeehahn ileanbeehahn.com and it's eil-e-e-n-b-h-a-n.com and you can you know look your blog is

1:02:45amazing I highly encourage everybody to get on your email list and to get be on your newsletter I should say your newsletter is it's just so uplifting it really is it's like sunshine it is you're just like and i'm just like oh you should be more like ilean i learn from you Lou every day you you inspire me and i inspire you it's beautiful it's so true you definitely do but anyway so i'm so grateful that we are doing so many of these fun things together and this you know the next two masterminds are really an outstanding group of people in each of them and it's just so fun to watch the light bulbs go off and the exchanges and the aha moments and the growth and looking forward to everybody seeing and reading your chapter in the book I encourage them if they have not gotten the first book which you were part of you can go to luannaigara.com forward slash book two and you can get that book there and ilean talked about leadership in that that book that's a little work

1:03:50on yourself as the leader of the company what to do and uh look just looking forward to more stuff we're going to launch the new book in november and then we're going to have luannaig live in february 2021 and you will be there for both of those with me so i'm so happy and grateful ilean thanks so much for coming on today thank you i'm so happy to be here so it's clear how much fun i have when i'm with ilean always okay and i want to just share with you how much she has helped us at window works okay and of course on the on the daily she keeps me from shooting myself in the foot as we're growing she suggests things to vyn and bill and myself that we've never would have thought of she's such an amazing resource as we learn how to best guide and nurture our company as we continue to meet the changing needs of our customers in this covid world and everything else okay again i have to mention yesterday's what would

1:04:54lute do um all of this that we've been through uh personally at window works so much of it she was instrumental in guiding us through okay because the thing is when you go to the next level in this business if you don't get this expert advice on hiring retaining scaling you know your growth is going to be slower and it is going to be a lot more painful okay i know this first hand i have made mistakes in hiring and i used to previously just say to myself hmm i missed an intuition thing there right and what i realized and what i've learned over many years of worth working with ilene that yes okay intuition plays a part in a higher right the gut feeling on somebody but it is the tiniest little part okay does the tiniest little part there are so many ways to actually do it with intention all right and the thing is everyone is busy especially two three four million dollar firms but if we want to grow we can allow ourselves to get so wrapped up in our

1:05:56day that we don't leave time for the planning and to doing these things thoughtfully all right and i just really love how ilene takes this overwhelming task of scaling and breaks it down into a simple well you know not easy but simple to do list right first of all we have to take time away from our business it seems counterintuitive all right especially when you're this big and you're this busy but we have to step out of the nine to five okay well i mean out of the nine to nine but we do we have to step away free up that headspace and so that we can get serious and really focus on what it is that we want and how we're going to get it because if you don't get clarity on that vision for your business where are you going right that's the thing so you have to start there and if you haven't read chapter one of the making of a well-designed business my first book you know go back and do that you know you got to talk to yourself what do i like doing what am i

1:06:58good at doing what segment of the market do i enjoy working in and the reason why that you know if you're experienced business owner of my one of my c-level designers or seasoned designers and you're doing that two or three million dollars and you're thinking i already know that what i know is it changes over time okay what you like doing and what you're good at doing change over time and if you are sitting there with a mission and vision for your company that's five or ten years old then you are not intentionally planning where you're going okay that's so important so create a compelling vision statement that defines your firm make it something that you and your team can get excited about and something that you're all proud about okay and then you take that vision and you get real with it and you attach it to a monetary goal right and back up that financial goal with a sales strategy it's human nature you just hope you'll hit your goal but hoping isn't

1:07:58going to work it never i mean i shouldn't say it never does sometimes hoping works on some things right but it doesn't work on scaling a business multiple millions of dollars okay so if you want to hit a dollar amount goal you must dedicate considerable time to developing the strategy to hit that goal all right when you dissect your business i want you to think about what has worked before can this take us to the next level or is this activity maxed out and what am i going to do differently to scale right these are the points that ilene is pointing out to us to do what is worked before can i can i use this to take us to the next level or is it maxed and what am i going to do differently if it is okay so this is you know the masterminds that i've been running with ilene with two million dollar plus design firms it's so exciting the magic happens here when you start to have these conversations about this sales strategy with your fellow designers in hearing what works

1:08:59for one and then the idea and the light bulbs go off with another one you know here's what works i just have to say i we love it we're enjoying it together we may be doing more in 2021 if you are interested in joining a mastermind with us put your hand up email me at info wetluenigara.com and i don't have a formal intake form on this yet but it is just a thing we just it's so exciting to watch the light bulbs go off okay and so for your smaller firms take a hard look at where your money money comes from too all right you need to be tracking this okay figure out what clients and jobs are the most lucrative lucrative for you do you not you need to know these things you know you need to know what you really love the kind of project you love but you have to know that that project so is one of the projects that's worth continuing to do because it makes you money okay so and if you just like to do it i you know i'm going to remember right now Ruthie stalson i remember on her episode i don't recall the number we'll put it in the show notes but

1:09:59i remember her special luxury designer and she does this it's not designer for a day it's like a refresh for the day i forget what she calls it but basically she goes in and she will for one day just rearrange everything in your house and make it look better because you know you have that super power to do that and i remember her saying on the show you know some of my designer friends asked me why do i do this it's i'm not you know selling product and it's a one day thing and she said i just love it i just love doing it so there is that cross section between what do you love to do and does it make you money so if you know i don't know Ruthie's entire business model but i know that she doesn't do that 30 days out of the month because if she did she probably wouldn't make the same amount of money with her luxury design firm but because it's something that she truly enjoys she allows a certain amount of days a month to do that and so that is perfectly fine you see so we don't turn away from everything we love but we have to know

1:11:01where the profits come so that we have the right mix in there that's all that's all i'm saying okay and i want to just say you know thank you to my doma studio okay you have all your clients numbers and info in one place there are so many moving parts and entire just in entire in an interior design business and you know my doma studio helps you stay organized it helps you source products and it helps you get paid okay so i would love for you to go ahead and try out the demonstration and do your free trial you can go to my doma studio dot com forward slash a well designed business okay my doma studio dot com forward slash a well designed business and you know my doma my doma how about you love that right my doma studio integrates with quick books okay and if you need help on understanding your quick books okay Peter Lang and Kat Anderson are teaching how to do this for your business okay the profit is in the numbers dot com the profit is in the numbers dot com so

1:12:06Kat Anderson is going to teach 101 and Peter is going to teach 201 okay these classes are starting in two weeks understanding your money is essential to running a profitable business okay we absolutely must know how to do this especially to scale all right so once you understand the importance of mapping your strategies for sales then you have to really understand how to watch the back end with the expenses and all of that other fun good stuff remember Lisa Gilmore finance Fridays whole difference in her business once she understood her numbers so check out her episode too Lisa Gilmore all righty I want you to take your vision your goal and your sales strategy and map it out and present it to your team and make sure that you make it happen okay and the one thing too I really want you to understand is that we've talked about it a lot but the hiring of the right team is critical because at this level you can have one or two shining stars and three or

1:13:12four turkeys you can't because you can't pull a train this big if everybody isn't united and really the best person for the role that they're in and the key in this is making the good higher to begin with okay and that part is hard because it comes with having a finite job description a finite job posting okay and then a meaningful interview process okay and then a rating tool and guess what I have been after Eileen for months to develop something for you at your level that you can get your you know get get and use and so she's done it okay it's taken her hours and hours of work but she has developed the process that you can buy on her website for the various roles that are needed in your interior design firm at this point she's probably worked about

1:14:14almost three dozen interior designers and she's been carefully collecting information and data and really diving deep into the nuances of the different roles that you need to support you as you grow a business and she has come up with these amazing job descriptions job postings relevant interview questions and a rating tool so love for you to go over to Eileen EIL EENBHON.com slash designers okay EileenBHON.com slash the designers and you will see these packages that she's got for you they're amazing and they will save you hours and hours of time in just coming up with it yourself and they will save you hours and hours of time in going through a very on what's the word I want on successful interview process night and day doing it her way and just

1:15:17doing it your own way believe me I've been the one in charge of interviewing and hiring our entire life at window works and I thought I was good at it until I found out how to really do it well that's the truth okay so and the last and final thing I want to say to you is take a look at my stories today Eileen has a really cute meme that I think you're gonna love you know Eileen she's just such an exuberant lively vibrant loving human being and I just I'm just so thrilled and lucky to share her with you have to say we really are very lucky to have her in our community here so thank you thank you thank you for joining me today I hope that you have a great day and I hope that you decide to be excellent thank you so much for joining me again today this podcast is a production of window works your resource for custom window treatments and honing to learn how we can help you on your next interdesign project go to www.windowworks-nj.com and if you're interested in working with me on your business either through masterminds or one-on-one coaching

1:16:20or you want to know how to get my book the making of a well-designed business or you just want to know what's going on in the podcast land and where I'm going to be all of that is found at luan nigara.com thank you so much Evan excellent day