137 - Exclusive: We Toured One Of Europe’s Most Secretive Tank Factories

0:00This is the red line, but we need to be three geopolitical experts on one big issue shabbing the news both here and overseas, and I'm your host, Michael Hilliard. Now, this week's episode is a bit of a special one, because rather than doing our usual deep dive from a studio, myself and to my colleagues here have been invited out to a restricted location somewhere in Europe to visit one of the continent's most cutting-edge tank factories. Now, obviously we're very grateful to our hosts here today who've taken the time to show us around the factory and really picked the brains of some of the experts here, but obviously for national security reasons, we're probably going to have to be a little vague on some of the exact stats and figures we've seen here today. However, that also doesn't mean that there's not a whole flood of new information, I'm excited to be talking about with my two colleagues here today. The first being a previous guest of the show, Professor James Kerlindzi, who not only hosts the excellent YouTube channel James Kerlindzi, and my second guest here is another friend of the show David Schroder, host of the Fantastic The Cold War channel, who covers the history, politics, and strategic dynamics of the Cold War and just tremendous depth, and I absolutely

1:04love his channel as well. For the time being, let's move back to what we've all just seen here in the factory floor, having just finished the tour about 10 minutes ago, and David, I guess I'm going to throw you here first, but what was the need for your attention on the tour? I think obviously there's a lot of geys, eastward to what's happening in Ukraine. Tanks become such an increased player on that type of field, so I think there's clearly lessons learned over the last years and the decades, where tanks become so important, desert warfare, tanks become incredibly, incredibly important. Then what really struck me about this tour in Neil to see the manufacturing coordination between French and German tank manufacturers? Obviously there's new players in Turkey, certainly coming online, Poland coordinating with other manufacturers, coming from the Asian market, so it's really interesting to see that continuing quite rapidly and quite quickly. Now James, obviously most of the tanks we've seen here are designed for the European theatre, but particularly if you looked at what the east of the content, how or do you think these

2:05new designs or tanks actually fit in with Europe's overall containment strategy? I think they will be looking very much in terms of something that can work at the continental level, and so I think it's very heartening again to see that we're witnessing here is sort of designers working very closely together to recognize those different needs that we have across Europe and how they can produce a product which will have a long shelf life, so they will be looking for things which are fairly resilient, which have got a long shelf life, which will be operating and being able to manage all different sorts of environmental contexts, so it's not just being able to supply tanks up in northern Europe. David, I think James really hit the nail on the head of one of the major problems here for European tank manufacturers. If you want to try and create a standardized tank across all of Europe, you need one that can not only operate well under pressure and cold places like Sweden or Finland, but you also need one that can operate well in hotter climates like Spain or Greece, and I think the way they've tried to tackle the issue has been quite ingenious, but for the

3:06audience here can you take us through the differences between some of their hot environment models and their cold environment models? I think it's very key that there's going to be climactic differences that make a difference in terms of performance. Obviously the type of tank that you're going to use in a cold weather environment needs to be designed around different types of situations, than what you're going to see in hot weather, and whether that's hot dry weather versus hot humid weather, it's very much like something that has to be considered. Given the number of manufacturers globally that are looking for new markets obviously having a multi-role or multi-role multi-variant options to be able to roll out is obviously really key and really important in terms of versatility. Now I do want to get into some of the specs of these tanks and how they stack up against some of the other tanks we've already seen operating across Europe, but obviously as part of the rules of us being here we do need to be a little bit careful about what we say, as speaking with some of the security staff here earlier they really did seem quite concerned about leaks. James why do you think that leaks are such a big concern for companies like this?

4:08I think across the board we know that leaks are a huge huge issue of concern when talking about tanks and we have to consider it in all sorts of ways. The leaks that you're talking about are particularly important in preventing this sort of technology getting into the wrong hands. That said whilst the ability to operate in hot and cold conditions does seem genuinely impressive at times, there does appear to be some drawbacks in these new models compared to some of the other tanks we've seen in the market, particularly when it comes to the tanks we've seen today they all tend to have a relatively low top speed. James how much of a ditch would you think that is and what's your reaction when you came across that? I mean some would say probably leaks a little bit to be desired, but again they designed for a very specific purpose that designers have been very clear in what they wanted to do with this. Yeah definitely seems like top speed wasn't the priority when designing this one, but there were still plenty of bright spots with it. In particular not only was I really impressed by the fire suppression system that was built into this, but I also thought its fuel storage capacity was really good as well, far larger than what you tend to

5:12see in some of the current variants. But they obviously they gave the three of us a bit of a demonstration of the fire suppression system and how that works. So without going into any of the patented material here, what was your thoughts on the system you saw? The fire suppression is so integral and is so built in. It has large capacity for those suppression systems to be able to very rapidly deal with a fire. Obviously since the advent historically speaking, since the advent of the tank during the First World War, fires inside the tank become this really key method of destruction. So having that built-in suppression system is really key, is really vital and it's so heartening certainly to see that it really is that the tank is being built around this suppression system where everything about the tank is very much about control and fires. Absolutely, as we talked about in the program before, prioritizing systems like this can significantly reduce casualties and in turn therefore turn reduce the amount of training burden that usually comes afterwards with trying to train up whole

6:13new crews. And this philosophy spreads to other parts of the tank as well. As one of the other ways they're really trying to minimize casualties here is by giving its operators the ability to lower the tanks of vertical profile. As frankly thanks to the sheer thickness of the armor that the manufacturer is built into these systems, that armor in some places being up to 1.2 to 2 millimeters thick, these tanks can not only operate as normal on the surface, but can also be partially buried in the ground and still perfectly functioned with most of the capabilities. David obviously this is not a new tactic and we've seen tanks in place still partially buried for a very long time, but on the bottom battlefield is this a feature you think is likely to come up more often once these new tanks become more widely available. Speaking as a historian, there's been a long use of tanks being used underground. Oftentimes with just the top of the tank being exposed, the fact that they're looking at these is having them completely buried but still be able to fully function is quite fascinating to see. I'm curious to see how they're going to overcome accessibility issues, but that's obviously most likely going to be left to the tacticians as opposed

7:17to the manufacturers. We're also striking to make that that same technology that allows these tanks to be buried and still remain largely operational. All the manufacturers told us that could also technically mean that these tanks would be able to operate underwater for prolonged periods of time as well, even boasting to us that these tanks could be positioned under the surface of the water and even be replenished whilst underwater through just a single specialized hatch on the tank. Now I realise this is a very niche scenario and niche capability, but if you're operating near a river system or some other body of water and you're trying to hide the amount of tanks you've got in the area from enemy reconnaissance or drones, but it does seem like the sort of feature that could come in some use. James, what was your thought? You've got to be able to take advantage of environmental factors. If you're suddenly found yourself in a situation where you need to be able to refill it at speed, you can't afford to waste those opportunities. And I think the work that they had done on this was really impressive. One of the other things that really impressed me about this was the fact that apparently

8:19when it does go into that scenario, when the tank is completely submerged, the tank's liquid cooling system remains completely operational as well, which is not only a useful feature if the tank is operating underwater, but especially with some of these proposed later variants that likely they end up incorporating AI into their systems. Having that liquid cooling system already built in, I'm sure it's going to be very useful. But fellas, look, now we've covered the main model. I want to talk about the one that really blew my mind on the tour today. As all of the features we've just been discussing, what appears on the larger variants of these tanks? And this manufacturer wants to go far beyond that, because within this proposed broader family of tanks, the manufacturer seems to have taken a slightly more Russian style approach to the supply chain here, trying to build out a production base that can support a whole range of different use cases on a lot of the same core materials. So not only do we have the larger ones we were discussing, but they've also come out with a range of smaller, more specialised urban theatre-focused miniaturised tanks as well. And I've got to say that until I saw it, I was pretty skeptical when they first floated the idea to me. James, David, what were your thoughts? I mean, some of the

9:23miniaturisation that we saw going on was just absolutely mind-blowing. I mean, yes, we were talking about massive tanks, but also there were some really, really small, but what seems to be highly effective tanks as well. Yeah, in particular, at more expensive variant, the 600mm one, that was very impressive. But David, I want to go back to you. What was your thoughts, both on the miniaturisation and on the cooling systems we were talking about on these tanks earlier on? It's quite fascinating to see this type of technological advancement being applied so directly in new designs. Building that into a miniaturised version is also really interesting, because it does really increase the options and the variability of what can be done with these tanks once they actually start being deployed into the field. I think we'll let a talk about this, but one of the other things I found really interesting is the marketing strategy around these tanks. As particularly when we look at these miniaturised urban variants, if they do manage to sell enough of these units and the price point does come down, well, they were talking to us about there being a potential for a civilian

10:27market there. The wonder you could see these tanks being used in homes all around the place? Obviously, I think that depends on what the final price point will be, but what was your thoughts? How possible do you think it is? I think it's quite easy to speculate that the home of the future will likely automatically come with a tank built into the basement. I think this is such easy miniaturisation, such easy accessibility, versatility. I think it's going to be absolutely the wave of the future. I think it's the personalisation of tanks as well. I mean, it's not just that every home is going to have their own tank, but each individual could even have their own tank looking ahead if they perfect this technology. It does all sound somewhat futuristic, but before everyone goes and puts their name on the waiting list for one of these things, I think we should probably mention one of the possible concern points here as well. As without wanting to start a giant panic over anything, but potentially legally, I do probably have to warn everyone that some of the materials used inside these tanks are also materials that people often find in use within nuclear reactors. In particular, one of the liquids we were told

11:27is quite regularly pumped into these tanks, is one that's often used within the very core of nuclear reactors. With that in mind, you think once people become aware of this liquid and where this liquid is in the tank, it could potentially make it much harder for these tanks to break into this villian market in the way that these manufacturers might be hoping for it to do so. There's been a long history of tank use with either nuclear weapons themselves, but also using depleted uranium. That's been a very common material used in tank use for many years. It really isn't a surprise that that's being envisioned as well. That tank being able to use heavy water certainly increases its versatility and in the use case scenario for them. So again, not a surprise that that's being considered. But even that wasn't the craziest thing we'd heard when speaking to some of the defense officials here today, because one of the ideas that's apparently being floated around at the moment is that these tanks could be used for operations within the Middle East, particularly for operations that aim to reduce the mobility of the Iranian navy in the Strait of Hormuz. The thinking, as it was explained to us, was that because these tanks have such a large

12:30capacity and specialized storage capability, if the US was to purchase enough of them, they could theoretically then line them up across the southern bank of the strait and then gradually drain the entirety of the Strait of Hormuz into these tanks. A frankly brilliant and bold move that would not only make Iranian sea mines far easier to detect, but it would also reduce the movement capabilities of the Iranian navy, or whilst having the out of bonus of preventing any Chinese ships from sailing through the Strait of Hormuz as well. Now obviously this is the kind of ambitious, non-egg-head kind of policy I love to see. But what do you think the benefit would look like if they are successful in pulling this off? I think it's entirely possible, but it would take years. And what about you James? What's your thoughts on Operation Pump and Dump? I'm a little bit more bullish about this because I wrongly lose its ability to control the Strait of Hormuz. If you deploy these tanks, it's a huge game changer in all sorts of ways, with that much water being concentrated right into these tanks. What kinds of new, devastating

13:34weapons could be unleashed if the Americans so chose to use these tanks in that way? I think that the manufacturing of balloons is going to go through the roof exponentially. I should have this plan actually come to fruition. They were hinting at when we were looking around that the water pistols as well that they're developing these with the tanks and the water bombs. Yeah, yeah. It's a whole new world of warfare. A good line sort of stitching it together, but I think hopefully there will be a way to do it. I think there's some winter lines in there I have to say. Happy April fools everybody. We are back with our April fools episode of 2026. And let us know how far you got in before you realize that we were talking about water tanks versus regular tanks. With any luck, this year I'll get fewer emails about facts I got wrong

14:37before people finished the end of the episode. Of course, I want to give a massive shout out to not only all the big water tank companies out there. You guys keep our showers and our hearts warm, but a massive thank you as well to James and David for jumping on this one. Not only were they just great sports about this frankly ridiculous premise, but the two of them also just have genuinely fantastic channels and are just great people to work with in their own right. So I highly recommend if you haven't yet go check out those channels as well. But my absolutely thanks goes out to those guys for making all of this possible than trying to keep a strange face throughout it. Hopefully you don't feel too betrayed by us and it gives you something a little lighter for the rest of the week. As the Red Long will be back very soon with all its usual depressing glory. But until then, thank you for listening. Good. Good. Okay.