158: Is Your Ringer On? | How Nonprofits Can Find and Hire a Good Lawyer

Welcome to Charity Therapy, the podcast where we explore the ups and downs of the nonprofit

sector and answer your burning questions.

I'm your host, Jess Berkin, owner of Berkin Law Office, and I'm excited you're here.

Imagine hanging out with me in my super smart, funny nonprofit expert pals.

You get to ask them anything about your nitty gritty nonprofit life and get their wisdom

for free.

Whether you're a seasoned pro or just strapping on your nonprofit boots, we're here to share

stories and remind you, you're not alone on this journey.

So get ready to join the conversation and bring me the tough questions.

I ain't scared.

Ready to rock?

Let's dive in.

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Charity Therapy.

I'm your host, Jess Berkin, and my ringer is always on.

And my co-host, Megan, her ringer is always off.

And we have just decided today, this is what divides the generations.

Yeah, we got the classic Gen X and above versus millennial and below problem of Jess is

always like, is he a ringer off when we start recording?

And I'm like, my ringer is never on.

Like, I feel like, how do you ever get a phone call?

I, how do you answer your phone in this night?

The millennial?

The answer is a phone.

Like, what do you mean?

Girl, you have to answer the phone?

No.

When it rings, if you know the number, I mean, I'll give you that.

I'll give you that.

Like, I don't want to answer a spam call.

Very few people sometimes I do actually calling me, first of all, second of all, if my,

if my phone is sitting next to me and facing up and it lights up, I can just pick it up,

you know?

Okay, but like, I don't want to be visually monitoring my phone screen at heart.

But I think this is also a generational divide.

Like, if you have to be sort of like, have one eye on the screen of your phone all the

time, are you even like, really, I don't know, some mindfulness meditation person who's

dying here.

Well, I think mostly the reality is that, you know, if someone calls me, I'm just going

to call them back when I see it.

Like, I don't need to know right away.

It's none of their business.

I mean, this is not for work stuff.

Obviously, I have my work thing over and I'm talking to my boss on a public platform

right now.

I am not ignoring my work calls, obviously.

But for personal things, I'm like, yeah, if you call me, I'll just call you back later.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I turn my ringer off a lot, you know?

And then there's family members who I just have to mute because they're not even going

to acknowledge that I might be at work or in a meeting.

But I think that, that is the different, you know, it's a generational divide, man.

It's like, there's so many things that aren't different between the two of us.

But then every once in a while, I'm like, what do you mean you turn my ringer off?

Sometimes there's a thing.

Yeah.

Sometimes there's one of those.

This is one of those.

All right.

Well, what are we, what are we doing today for real, for real?

Well, today, I do have a listener question for us, but this one is kind of fun because

it feels very like we're talking about the nonprofit sector, but we're also talking about

the legal industry.

So it's the perfect little like cross section.

But for Burkin Law Office, I talk to a lot of our new clients out front.

And one thing that comes up a lot is that folks just don't really know how to find a lawyer.

Most of the time, the only time people think they need a lawyer is if like, you know,

they're being sued, they're being arrested, like something terrible is happening or they're

going through some messy divorce.

So, but we work with people where generally nothing terrible is happening.

They need a lawyer for other reasons.

So Jess, before we jump in, how does even, how does someone even find a lawyer?

Well, I think realistically, and just in day to day life, most people know a lawyer.

Like most people might know a doctor.

Hmm.

It might be their doctor.

It might be their friends doctor.

It might, you know, but like in somewhere in their circle, they're like, that's the only

lawyer I know.

And so then that lawyer ends up getting asked, can you do this?

And they say, no, I don't do that at all, you know, I'm a family law attorney.

You have a criminal law issue, but I can give you a referral.

Somebody that I know like and trust who does criminal law and they, they can help you.

I think that's a big, big way that people find lawyers is just through word of mouth.

And then really the other way is just like, googling it, looking on the internet, because

if you're a person that you have no lawyer contacts anywhere in your sphere, how else

are you going to do it?

Right?

You're just going to start googling and maybe you get to a referral service, maybe somebody

like gives you the phone number of a referral service.

But pretty much I think people are googling it or asking, I think the doctor comparison

is a good one because it's like when you have this weird medical issue, you don't know

what kind of specialist might need to deal with that.

So you ask your primary care, like you just ask someone who can say, hey, you should go

here.

And it's the same sort of mentality of like, you don't know what kind of lawyer might

be the right one necessarily.

You don't know what all these different practice areas are or even that a lawyer is necessarily

the right one to help.

So you go to a professional, you trust and say, hey, I have this issue.

And hopefully that professional is able to help get you to the right place or even just

like one step along the path towards the right place.

So as much as it kind of sucks that it depends on who you know, sometimes that is the best

way to get where you need to go.

So I do have a listener question about this.

Are you ready to dive in?

Do it.

All right.

I am a board member tasked with finding my small nonprofit a lawyer.

I am trying to collect five options for the board to review and have the board interview

each lawyer.

I've prepared an RFP to get some information from as many firms as possible before we narrow

down to the interview stage.

Is there anything else I'm supposed to do to make sure we did a fair search for candidates?

Oh boy.

Okay.

So yeah, this does come up.

We've had scenarios like this come up.

First of all, as a board member, I would be looking and seeing, do we have a purchasing

policy, a procurement policy?

Because if there's not something that is forcing you to use an RFP, a request for proposal,

I would not use an RFP to hire a lawyer.

Most lawyers do not get hired based on responding to an RFP.

And frankly, it's just not the way the industry works.

And so it may be the case that unless you're mega nonprofit who's going to be spending hundreds

of thousands of dollars on legal fees, most law firms are not, they're not prepared for

this.

They're not trying to do this.

And if they have enough work, they're not going to spend time crafting a proposal for

you.

So I, I don't like this strategy in the beginning because the people you're going to

get are the people who are not busy and have a lot of time to do this.

And this is, I'm not talking about big firms, hospitals, higher ed, going downtown where

they got 100 lawyers and 100 staffers.

And there's plenty of time and resource to put in a proposal for your multi million dollar

legal fee.

Yeah.

I'm talking in the small nonprofit who's just trying to figure out how to hire a lawyer.

Well, and just to break in before you continue, I think this brings up the thing that nonprofits

do a lot, which is believe that they have to follow this overly complicated and

onerous process because they are trying to be like government or trying to be like the

hospitals and universities who have this insane process.

And the reality is they have that insane process for reasons, like most likely because of

where they're getting their funding from or different things like that.

Like the run of the mill charity, there's no legal obligation to behave in this way.

Like you don't have to, you know, get five options and go through an RFP process to

hire every single professional.

Like you are just a business hiring a professional.

Right.

And that's what I'm saying.

Unless you have a purchasing policy that requires this sort of process.

And the other problem with this for hiring a lawyer is like, what do you think you're

going to get in this proposal?

Some people charge like we charge flat billing, like it's a, it's a set amount based on a

scope of work.

Well, I can't respond to a proposal because I don't know what exactly what the work is.

So I can never give you a proposal because we would have to meet first so that I could

even understand what the work is that you want.

Other lawyers charge by the hour.

And so they can tell you they're hourly rate.

And then what you're just going to pick the cheapest one.

Well, that's not necessary.

You don't necessarily want the cheapest one.

You want the one that's in the best interest of the nonprofit.

Sometimes that might be the most budget friendly lawyer, but sometimes you're going to pay

more to get higher quality work or more specialized work.

So it's just, it's a very like not a good tool to hire a lawyer.

Yeah.

So let's like say we tell them to throw the RFP out the window.

And instead they are just finding online or there through their network, some names.

How do they assess like who is a good fit?

Yeah.

So like, let's talk about what you should do when you're hiring a lawyer, right?

So first of all, does this attorney have expertise in the thing that you're hiring

them for?

So is it Uncle Larry has a family law practice?

And but you know Uncle Larry and like you got a bad letter from the IRS about your nonprofit

and you need somebody to represent you before the IRS.

Well, that's like saying, I need heart surgery, but I'm going to go to this brain surgeon

because he's my uncle and be like, Hey, dude, could you open up my chest and operate

on me?

Like brains is normally what you do, but like it's all the same, right?

It's like blood in, blood out, cells, whatever.

That seems crazy because it is.

And that's the same way it is for lawyers.

There are things that we specialize in.

There are things that we do.

There's things that we really don't do.

And we probably shouldn't be doing because, you know, we don't really do that and we're

not paying attention to what's happening in that area.

So does the lawyer actually have any expertise?

Now sometimes people go like way overboard and like, I've definitely talked with potential

clients who are like, how, how many trade associations that work in the plumbing, heating,

cooling industry have you done mergers with?

Like dude, come on, are we, are we being serious right now?

Like generally, have you done mergers?

Sure.

Okay.

Have you worked with trade associations?

Sure.

You don't need to get like super duper granular, but like is this the kind of doctor who works

on this kind of problem is the first question you should be asking for a lawyer?

And then are they able to even tell you what it's going to cost?

Because that for me, obviously as somebody who does all flat price billing, it is knowable,

you know, most of the time, most of the stuff for nonprofits, unless you're literally

going to trial and it's going to be a very messy scenario, there is a way to scope out

the work.

There are ways for a lawyer to say, we will not exceed this much money without your approval.

There are all sorts of things that law firms can do.

They might not like to do that.

They might not want to do that.

Because most lawyers just want to bill by the hour because it's lazy.

And frankly, they make more money if they bill by the hour.

I mean, think about it.

Your interest is aligned and wasting a lot of time going as slow as possible and just

like chewing up the retainer because that's how they make money.

So is this lawyer able to tell you what it's going to cost with any kind of certainty

is number two?

Because as in all of our clients, our budget conscious, there's no nonprofit that doesn't

care how expensive something is.

And like then you get into stuff like what's it going to be like to work with these people?

And sometimes you can tell that from looking at Google reviews.

What I would say is if they have any Google reviews, that's a decent sign that they're

a person that is running their firm in a way that they care about the internet, technology,

customer reviews, customer satisfaction.

If somebody hasn't even claimed their Google business profile, that telegraphs to

you that this person's not going to be using a lot of modern technology.

And you know, that might be fine, depending on the circumstance, but it's just something

that you want to know, right?

Because is it going to be easy to book with them?

Do they use online booking?

Are there calls answered?

Do they get back to you in a reasonable amount of time?

These are things that if it's bad, it's like dating.

If it's bad in the beginning, it's not going to get any better.

The longer you work.

Red flags on the first date are going to be the red flags one year in, like absolutely.

Right.

You know, the other side of this coin is, is it a little too easy to get a hold of them?

Do you call their office and the firm owner answers the phone and seems to always be available?

Because what that tells me, I do a lot of continuing ed for lawyers about law firm management.

And what that tells me is this person either, they don't have enough work.

So they're either they're brand new inexperienced or they do have enough work and they're distracted

all day long.

They're supposed to be working on your file, but instead the phone rings and they pick

it up.

And that's like you're in the middle of your annual exam.

You got your feet in the stirrups and your OBGYN is like the phone is ringing and they

just stop your annual exam and start talking to some other person on the phone in the

middle of your procedure.

What the heck are you doing?

You don't call the doctor's office and you get the heart surgeon on the phone immediately.

Like that would be concerning.

I would be like, I don't know.

Unless you're paying for concierge service with the doctor, you probably aren't going

to get them on the phone.

So some of these things are, are an early warning system that I think most people don't

know what that means and so they don't clock it as a potential problem.

Yeah.

Another one that I think people don't necessarily know is when you have a smaller firm

or an individual lawyer who claims to be an expert in like all of the areas, it's like

I can help you with your divorce and DUI and IRS problem and small business formation.

And it's just like at first as a person looking for a lawyer, it might be like great.

They can help with whatever comes up.

Like I don't have to find a million different lawyers, but you know, do they actually know

what they're doing in all of those realms?

Like what does that actually look like?

And particularly in an area like nonprofits where it is rather niche, like not that many

people work in this area and all things considered.

And it is like complicated, like there's just like a lot going on in the nonprofit world.

Like they're not going to be able to do a quick Google search and figure it out for you

necessarily.

Like you want someone who knows what they're talking about about nonprofits, not just a

generalist who can, you know, do a quick search and give you a good enough answer.

Yeah.

And a couple of caveats there, if it's a larger firm and they have 10 lawyers and this

firm says they do 10 different practice areas, okay, that makes sense because they got

a bunch of people and just like going to a multi-practice medical clinic, you know, not

everybody does the same thing.

So if you're, you know, I'm thinking of my friend who lives out in the Montana, North Dakota

area, there's four lawyers in 300 miles.

Well, you know what?

She's going to be doing a lot of stuff because she's one of the only people around.

But if you're in a metropolitan area or you have a video meeting connection, you can work

with a lawyer who specializes in the thing that you need.

So absolutely.

Yeah.

What else?

That's the last one that really matters is just like pay attention to how you feel when

you're talking to their staff or to the attorney themselves of just like, do you feel like

they are listening to you?

Do you feel like they are understanding what you're saying and are, you know, actually paying

attention to you and are willing to meet you where you're at?

I think there's this overall impression of lawyers that they're hard to talk to.

They're, you know, fast talking.

They're out to get you and scam you.

And if you feel that way when you're talking to a lawyer, like maybe they're not the right

person to work with, like, yeah, keep it open.

Find another one.

You are coming to them to help with a problem, whether it's like a big scary, horrible, messy

problem or just, hey, I have this like paperwork that I need to get filed either way.

You're coming to them to help you get something done.

And you don't want to feel distrustful, scared and like uncomfortable the whole time you're

working with them.

Like there are lawyers out there that will help you feel heard and understood and like

you can trust them to keep your best interests at heart.

Yeah.

I'll throw in one more because I think a lot of what this listener is getting at is like

trying to understand the fit, reputation, right?

Those are kind of like the elements that you're going to put in your RFP.

Here's the thing.

The lawyer is going to tell you they're the best thing since sliced bread.

So it is totally okay to research the firm or the person that you're trying to hire.

You know, Google them and go past page two or three.

Because if they've had an ethics problem and there's been a finding at the Supreme Court

that they did something unethical, it's online.

It might not be on the first couple of pages, but it is online.

Go ahead and ask around.

You know, hey, do you think that this this firm or this lawyer is good?

Have you had good experiences with them?

Most of the time in the legal industry, people don't ask for references because of attorney

client confidentiality.

It's very difficult for us to give references because it's confidential.

But you can ask other lawyers.

You can dig down into the Google results, read their reviews, see if they're responding

to reviews.

Like, you can do a little bit of slew thing to just do that check to make sure that there's

nothing like glaring because of course, you know, the lawyer is not going to say like,

I'm, you know, actually terrible, right?

I'm two seconds from getting my license revoked, you know, yeah, 100%.

It's just, and that's where I think that there is a more intangible element of you have

to trust your gut a little bit and listen to how you feel and what the person is saying.

Also do some checking up on the back end, you know, like, there's a little bit of everything.

But once you get to the point where you're reasonably sure this is going to work out,

it's a little bit of a leap of faith.

Like you can't know everything before you start working with someone.

And so do your due diligence, but don't go crazy about finding the absolute right fit,

the perfect unicorn that will do everything exactly, you know, like, you can drive yourself

crazy with all of the options out there too.

Yeah.

And to you get what you pay for, you know, if you get Uncle Larry, the family law attorney

or the, you know, transactional commercial property lawyer on your board to do your

stuff for you, your, you know, you're making a choice about the expertise and the quality

of the work and you're taking a gamble there.

Good work is expensive.

And that's just the, I'm at sucks, but that's the reality.

All right.

So in conclusion, again, so first, I will just say it is an overwhelming task to try

to find a lawyer for the first time if you don't know how.

It's okay, but there are ways to effectively suss out who might be a good fit.

So you end up with a lawyer that can help you.

So to do that, use your resources, use your network, use the internet, all of those kinds

of things to do some looking for some lawyers in your area or in the area of expertise that

you are seeking.

Second, don't over complicate your process unless you have to.

If there is some sort of legal requirement or a purchasing policy that you have to follow

to do something like an RFP or to have a minimum of X number of options for the board to

review or whatever, don't over complicate it.

It's okay to do your due diligence as a person and then just make a choice.

And finally, I would say trust yourself and your own feelings about how you are being

helped and handled through the process.

These are all just people.

And if you don't feel like you are being, if you feel like you can't trust the people

that you're talking to, listen to that and keep, keep looking.

Yeah, folks, if you need a referral, you know, let us know we're happy to have a huge

network.

I will, I will personally confirm this that Jess is, first of all, one of the most social

people I know, but also is very good at the keeping good connections with other lawyers

out there.

She most likely knows someone who might be able to help.

Yeah, don't hesitate to reach out.

And if you would do me a kindness and rate us on your podcast app, that would be amazing.

If you've got a nonprofit that needs a lawyer, you know, we're always accepting new clients.

Plug us here for a minute.

Plug us.

Yeah.

And as always, thank you so much for listening.

We'll see you next time.