180. The Only European Leader Defying Trump? (Pedro Sánchez)

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The Iran War. We're facing a witnessing of all these international order based on rules.

Real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth no matter what. When it comes to

our relationship with the U.S. I mean we want to keep that trust and that they've gone but if you

go into the details what you see is that we have an open trade war which was opened

unilaterally by the U.S. administration I do believe that Europe needs to be force of good

because our enemies what they want is to have a more fragmented Europe. You're one of a very very

small number. I've left the center leaders. I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union but

what would you like to see the UK? I would definitely like to have the UK on board the game.

I think that the framework has changed because of Brexit but on the other hand I think that societies

can make mistakes and I think it was a mistake for the UK to leave the European Union.

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Welcome to the rest of this politics leading with me Rory Stewart.

And me Alice Campbell and our more obsessive listeners may remember a rest

this politics question time a few years ago when I was asked which is my favourite government

building around the world. And we're in it. It's Lamon Clawa which is the home of the Spanish

president the prime minister we call you prime minister but the Spanish call you president but

this is a very modern very bright very classy building which is kind of the image that

President Sanchez tries to project for himself and of Spain. But what's really interesting when

we announced that we were going to be interviewing you on the podcast last week we were

inundated with suggestions and comments and questions. And I think they showed just how

polarizing politics is right now. We had lots of people saying ask him about his

growth promoting liberal immigration policies. Ask him about his amazing record on renewables.

Ask him about paternity pay. Ask him about a bit rising the minimum wage. And above all,

ask him about a very very strong position that he's taking on some of the foreign policy issues.

Gaza more lately Iran. And then your critics would say that he's got this very rickety coalition

and he's only been able to put through three budgets in eight years and he's had to rely on these

kind of strange collection of separatist parties. And there's the stuff that's been in the lot in

the media about corruption and there's lots on the pro side and there's lots on the anti side and

we want to cover all of that. But I want to start if I may with I don't know whether this will

get us off on the wrong foot but telling you why I was in this building 20 years ago it was with

Tony Blair to persuade Jose Maria Astana to get involved in the Iraq war. Oh okay. So I just

wonder whether that's the place to start because it shows how much spale has changed between now.

And it's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I mean. I do, though. Well, thank you very

much for having me and ready to and happy to answer all these questions. And as you said already,

I think that Spain has shift its approach when it comes to this illegal wars that if you take

the experience of the Iraqi war, it didn't bring anything good for the Middle East, for Europe and

for the whole world. So we need to have the courage to learn lessons and look for other solutions

in order to resolve most of these instability challenges that we're facing around the world.

Focus through what happened and the decision that you made to come out very clearly to say that

you were not supporting the legality of present Trump and Israel's action in Iran.

Was that a difficult decision? How long did the decision take you? Did you think about it for

many hours? Did you debate with your team? I debated with my team. I debated, of course,

within the coalition government. I also thought about it because this has been a very consistent

and very coherent position when it comes to international politics because we're facing a

witnessing of all these international order based on rules. And since the Ukrainian war

and afterwards the Gaza Strip War and nowadays the Iran War, I think it's very important to have

a consistent approach when it comes to fulfill our obligations in the international realm and,

of course, a fulfilling international legality. This has been our approach when the US

administration asked us to use our military bases in the southern of Spain and we, of course,

reject the use of these military bases to, let's say, deploy their military capabilities in the

Middle East. What was going on in your mind in terms of thinking what price might I have to pay

for this? What might Donald Trump do to punish me for this? Of course, there's always a trade-off,

there's always this kind of debate within our government, but at the end of the day it's also

true that, you know, real allies are like real friends. They tell each other the truth, no matter

what. And when it comes to our relationship with the US, I mean, the whole European Union,

it is true that we want to keep that transcendentic bond. But if you go into the details, what you see

is that we have an open trade war, which was open unilaterally by the US administration,

there's also a question mark when it comes to the respect of our territorial integrity,

that means Greenland. And of course, Europe is not in the negotiation process when it comes

to the security, the European detector and the end of the Ukrainian war. So at the end of the day,

I think that it's important to strengthen the European pillar that will bring us to have a stronger,

I believe, a transcendentic relationship in the coming years. What didn't happen is a common

European position. I mean, what happened was a sense of splintering. And I'm just wondering what

lessons we can learn from this. Is there more that Europe, UK, Canada could have done in advance

to have a joint position on this rather than end up with everybody going in different directions?

There's actually no common position even in the US politics within the US society. So this is

a unilateral war that has been started by two nations, by two governments, without consulting,

without coordinating with their allies. And this is, I think, very, very important to keep in mind.

And afterwards, the consequences of all these war, not only casualties, instability and security,

as the Iraqi war brought us in Europe and also across the world. Also for the global south and for

our citizens, we'll meet an erosion of our welfare state. And of course, the middle class and

working class incomes and let's say, welfare. But your position on international law was the normal

position for everybody five years ago, 10 years ago. And normally we would say a US president needs

to go to Congress. He should try to make some kind of argument to the United Nations. He should

speak to his allies. So five years ago, you would expect, Oslo van der Leyen, the German Chancellor,

Macron, the Canadians, the Brits, all to come out on your position. But some things changed.

Now they all come out in 15 different positions. So what's happened to the world in the last five

years? Why are they not all saying this is clear? This is international law.

In my view, there's a way for far-right that is undermining also international order and

the international order based on rules. Do you see Trump as being far-right?

I see that there's a clear challenge coming from the US administration when it comes to

weakening and undermining international order. This is point number one. Point number two, I think,

that they are also profiting from the lack of political willingness from nations before

the current US administration to reform and upgrade the international order to the 21st century.

But that doesn't mean that we have to go back to 19th century. What we want and we need to do is to

fix what is not working in the international order, but also to keep the things that are working.

And that, for example, brought us this period of peace that we have profit over the last decades.

So the dilemma is not to have all and new international order. The dilemma is to have

upgrading international order to the 21st century or to go back to 19th century and, of course,

to have all the force. Do you feel quite lonely, logically? I was thinking about it.

No, I don't think so. I think that at the end of the day, if you see, there's also a shift.

When it comes to the position of the different governments vis-à-vis the Iran War,

this is shift in the political positions of these governments and administrations,

because the societies, their societies, are not following that political position.

Also, I think it's very important to have in mind that nowadays, international politics

is not only states, there are many, many societies that are engaged and they are against this

kind of illegalities. But when, for example, Chancellor Mertz was sitting alongside President

Trump in the White House and Trump went off from one of his brands about Spain, and he was a terrible

person in Spain's terrible, and we're going to punish them and not do any trade with them.

Did you not feel that Chancellor Mertz should have spoken up for you as a fellow European?

I mean, I can't imagine that it's a very uncomfortable situation, and what I heard from

and understand from Chancellor Mertz is that, of course, in his private meeting, of course, he

explains that trade policy is in the hands of the European Commission, and it's not a question of

bilateral, and by the way, Spain suffers trade deficit when it comes to our bilateral relations

with the US. So it's not the case of the Spanish economy towards the US where they have and

suffered this trade deficit, but anyhow, I think that is a very uncomfortable situation,

and of course, for me, what is important is that Chancellor Mertz of course supported Spain,

and supported the unity of the European Union when it comes to this kind of

coherence awards that, of course, Prissy and Trump likes to use.

But so, if I go back to the time when Tony Blair was Prime Minister,

there was a period when Gonzales was here, Schroeder in Germany,

Jostmann and France, Prody in Italy, there were a lot of left-of-center leaders in Europe.

You're one of a very, very small number of left-of-center leaders, and I just wonder whether you're

whether you think that your relationship, I know Britain sadly is not in the European Union,

but whether the relationship with Britain as a fellow centre-left, you're probably the left

of the Labour government, but you're both centre-left. Yeah, you know, we have a great relationship.

I think that the framework has changed, obviously, because of Brexit, but on the other hand,

you know, the relationship is very good between governments and also within our societies.

No, let me just say about Europe that, you know, I do believe that Europe needs to be nowadays,

especially nowadays, a force of good. And that means that we need to be alliance, not only

with the US, but of course, but also with the rest of the world. We need to have a more engagement

approach when it comes to all these global debates that the US, unfortunately, they just rejected.

Global warming, inequality, social justice, migration, of course, what shall we do with AI

and regulation, or at least creating these alliance across countries and across societies,

you know, to have a more human approach to this new kind of technology. So there are plenty of

global debates that we need to focus ourselves more than creating these kind of new problems

that, well, it won't create any good for the region and for the world.

How do you create the structures to do this? Because if we take the examples that you've used,

as soon as we start talking about defence cooperation, suddenly France wants to help French defence

companies. As soon as we're talking about AI tech cooperation, Britain is cutting side deals with

Google. Somebody else is doing this. We talk about international law. You take one position,

Mark Carney takes one position and changes his position. So how are you going to coordinate? How are

you going to get a joint voice out of with your allies? We need to be more coordinated, that is true.

I think that, of course, are historical roots that explains foreign policy nowadays.

For instance, what is happening with Germany when it comes to its relationship with the Prime

Minister Netanyahu or Spain when it comes to the US. So there's, of course, historical roots

that explain different nuances when it comes to foreign policy. But in my view, there's a lack of

European vision when it comes to this global debates. And the paradox that Europe face is also that we

we need to furtherize more our policies on capital and saving union market, the energy,

union market, the digital union market, defence, European industry. We need to scale up, definitely.

But at the same time we have, because of this far right wave within Europe,

we have more nationalistic governments that want to keep that policies

in their own hands. And that makes Europe weaker, because our enemies, what they want,

is to have a more fragmented Europe and not a more united Europe. That is why I think that within

European Union, there are governments that are ready to share that sovereignty. And that is why I

think that we need to move forward in different speeds, different countries that we are already

ready. Where do you stand on the debate about enlargement and looking at bringing in other countries

different pace, different times? Well, I think that we actually, actually because of our historical

roots, because we were commemorating this year, the 40th anniversary of the enlargements of the

European Union to the Arabian Peninsula, we're happy to have more countries. But it's been

over 13 years now? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But there's of course technical criteria,

but there's also geopolitical decisions that we need to take. And I think that Ukraine,

Moldova, and of course, Western Balkans are the, let's say, the duties that European Union

needs to fulfill the enlargement, I mean, in order to complete the European Union political

project. And that also means that we need to do our own reforms, internal reforms, mainly in the

decision-making process, which is difficult sometimes. You think there should be less decided by

union energy? Exactly, for instance, for instance. There are two models for Ukraine, Moldova,

Western Balkans. A one model is, which sometimes Mata Kost seems to talk about, is an idea that you

go bold, you say, you're going to be a European Union member and then later you will catch up. And the

alternative model is that you offer them some kind of four-freedom single market style membership

and then a path to a deadline. We are ready for you in 2031, which is the model that you prefer?

We have already experienced that, and tested with these partnership that we build up with Ukraine and

other countries such as Georgia and Moldova. I think that for our strategic or geoconomics and

geopolitics from Europe, I mean, I do believe that we need to enlarge towards Ukraine and Moldova.

This is my opinion. We believe that in Europe, we're ready to do that and we'll make Europe

stronger. Moldonegro, Albania. And of course, the Western Balkans. That will also mean for

certain countries to keep geopolitics not only in the eastern flank of Europe or the Arctic,

because there are other countries such as Iceland that are thinking what to do in the future if they

become or not a member of the European Union. And the big question mark is what the UK will do

in the future? What would you like to see the UK do? I would definitely like to have the UK

on board again. I think that societies can make mistakes, but also you can review those

mistakes. And I think it was a mistake for the UK to to leave the European Union. And today,

I think that there's a lot of data and facts that, of course, shows that that path was not the

correct one. Just before we leave the international and the foreign policy side of things,

are you in a no political pressure domestically to spend more on defence? That's something that I

think we've been, you know, we have already spent, no, you're still, but you're still very low

in terms of the 2.1% of our GDP. Yeah, but you're not, but you very deliberately basically stood

up against Trump when he was basically saying to all the NATO allies, you've got to spend a lot more.

You were, that was when the kind of rifts, I think, I think that five percent, five percent,

it was an arbitrary figure, which was not based on data and facts. I mean, just to share

with you this information, which is public, but I think that is important to table this,

that we agreed with NATO to spend 2.1% of our GDP on defence, because with that amount of money,

we would be able, from Spain, to have the capabilities needed to face the common challenges

that we are facing as NATO. So one thing is, okay, let us speak about the global challenges that

we're facing in NATO. What are the capabilities that all allies should table? And afterwards,

we will decide how much money do you spend on defence? Because if you take my eight years,

since I'm in office, we have tripled the expenditure on defence. Of course, when it's related to

our GDP, and of course, we have deployed more than 3,000 soldiers, mainly in the eastern flank,

in NATO missions. So all in all, what I'm trying to say is that there's a lot of

arbitrarianists when it comes to these 5% of our GDP. One year could be 5%, the other year could

be 2%, and the other year could be 7%. Because at the end of the day, the real debate is

capabilities or the capabilities that allies need to share in order to face the challenges

that we face as NATO. How do you rebalance away from the US? I mean, let's say you want to stay

allies with the US, but you also want to rebalance. You want to look a little bit more sovereignty,

a little bit more independence. But of course, Spain and Europe can't do everything on their end.

You don't have completely independent capacity with AI, cloud computing, defence security.

So what is the strategy? How do you deal with China, with India? How do you balance your reliance

on different external powers? So first of all, I think it is important to show that we are a

reliable partner with all these regions that you mentioned. So I think that the path open by

the current presence of the Commission also leveled on their line when it comes to

trade agreement, India trade agreement, and so on and so forth is the correct one.

Second, I think that Europe should deploy more its soft power, which means that we need also

to be engaged in the global debates and not extension the European Union. When it comes to migration,

when it comes to global warming, when it comes to financing for the development, when it comes

to AI regulation or governance, these are the big debates that the global south are waiting

to be responded. And I think that it is a mistake from Europe to send the message that we

believe that an international order is dead. Do you think Europe is lost its confidence?

No, I think that we are suffering a lot of shocks from Ukraine and Russia, from the US,

now from the Middle East, of course China, and within the European Union, there's a clear shift

towards the far right, which means more pro-nationalistic vision of the European Union,

which is, I do believe, a weaker approach, because what we need is to unite Europe, not to

fragment Europe. And in this regard, I do believe that just to respond to your question,

there's of course a need to reform our single market, which means not only the enlargement,

but also we need to complete the saving and capital union market, the energy union market,

the digital union market. And these are the duties that we should deliver before the end of

the mandate at the European level. And can you explain to the normal delta in Britain or in

Spain, what does this mean? I mean, this sounds very unifying energy markets, capital unions,

in practical terms, what does this mean for a citizen? It means, for instance, that since seven

years ago we have decided to become the green energy hub for the European Union. What is the problem?

That we are interconnected only by 5% of our total capacity. So we cannot provide competitive

energy prices to the European Union because there's a lack of interconnections between the

European peninsula and France. If we complete that interconnections, we will provide cheaper

energy prices to European consumers. So these are the small things, but very important things

for the welfare of European citizens. And of course, for the, let's say, the strength of the

European Union project. You know, since I'm in office, last month, for instance, thanks to

this green transition, we've been able to reduce dramatically the electricity prices. So

last month, for instance, the electricity prices were three times cheaper than the ones in France,

six times cheaper than Germany and seven times cheaper than in Italy. So what I'm trying to say is

that, of course, from Spain, we can provide cheaper electricity prices and cheaper energy

for the rest of Europe. And this is solar. Predominantly solar?

It's solar, yes. And you're benefiting from your weather, your sunshine?

Exactly. But at the end of the day, you know, when you see the ideological speeches coming from

the far right, going against the green transition, going against migration, I think Spain is a very

good example with facts that green transition is for the good of the middle class. And also migration,

even though, of course, there's a lot of challenges behind migration is also good for the

economic growth of the country. Because at the end of the day, in the 21st century, the competition

around the world is how do we attract talent? And I think that is a big mistake from Western

societies just to say we're going to close our borders because we don't need more migration.

Of course, we need migration, the dilemma of Western societies is whether we open our economies

and growth or whether we close our borders and it's rinking. I want to talk about immigration

and the way that you've handled the whole issue. And also the politics around it. So you've

mentioned a couple of times the idea that there's a sort of movement to the far right across Europe.

And, you know, we've got a similar situation in the UK with a Labour government that's coming with

a huge landslide and is now under real pressure and a lot of the pressure coming from populist

Ryan and populist left. What have you learned about how best to handle that? I mean, and we shouldn't

quote taxi drivers, but my taxi driver in the airport last night said he was really impressed

politically. By the way, you had taken an issue which the far right thinks plays massively in their

favour immigration. And you have kind of flipped that. So is there actually somebody like him in the

centre is thinking, I'm never going to vote for these people on the far right. I'm going to vote for

this guy. Well, I think I think there are two dimensions when it comes to migration. There's a

moral dimension, which I think is very important not to forget. But these are people that are looking

for new opportunities. And I think that there's moral dimension of migration that we need to keep

in mind. But there's also a pragmatic dimension of migration. We're suffering a winter

demography within Western societies. And of course, that means that we need to fight against

irregular migration. We have managed through cooperation and collaboration with countries of

origin and transit to reduce dramatically by 60 percent the irregular flows in Spain. But at the

same time, it's true that when you speak with business associations, they tell you we need

talent, we need migration. And that is why it's so important to have regular path of migration.

So what you've done, which a lot of the centrist left the centre and right the centre

governments across Europe have not done, you don't know around saying, yeah, we understand

you're concerned. You basically say to these people on the far right, you're xenophobic,

and you're damaged, and you're attitudes damaged in the country. They are going against the

interest of our country. But again, you can't alone leave voice on that within the European

immigration debate. But there are no answers. Even across European governments, you find prime

ministers from the central right saying, we're facing a winter demography, and we need

to open regular paths for migration. And I think that one of the biggest mistake that Trump

and current US administration is making is to close borders. They are trying to identify migration,

all migration with a crime and all these violence. And it's the contrary. In the case of Spain,

you know, migration represents 10% more or less of the total incomes of social security system.

But at the same time, only represent 1% of the total public spending. The challenge for governments,

and in the case of Spain, you know, since we have a very decentralized system,

it in the hands of the regions and the hands of municipalities, the challenge is how do we

integrate this migration? And the problem that we face in Spain, and I think that across Europe,

is that far right, they're just not sending a message that we are going to close borders,

which is impossible, by the way. But at the same time, they are reducing dramatically

budget related to integrating migration. Interestingly, a loss of the migration coming to Spain is

coming from Latin America. And a lot of the migration coming to the United States is also coming from

Latin America. But the way Trump is describing Latin American migrants sounds like a completely

different group of people from the people you're describing. I mean, it's a similar population,

but he says these people are crazy rapists, violent. And when you speak with these Latinos in

the United States, is the country, you know, they feel proud to be in the United States. They feel

proud also about how they contribute to the economic growth and prosperity in the United States.

Not only from Latin America, we have also a very important diaspora of Morocco in Spain that they

are contributing to the welfare of our society. And again, the challenge is how do we integrate

this migration? How do you do that? We need to increase our budget when it comes to municipalities

and regions. We need to also deploy social policies. So you want to spend more on welcoming

immigrants to Spain. Well, actually, what we are now in the process is to recognize the rights

and regulate the more or less 500,000 migrants that are already living in Spain. But you know,

for a country of close to 50 million people, you know, we're talking about perhaps four points,

five points of the total migrants that we have in Spain is not a big issue. I think that we have

of course, you know, the capacity to absorb and to integrate these migrants.

Okay, President Sanchez, Rory, quick break and back for more.

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Can I ask you about your domestic political situation? Of course.

It is fascinating. You've probably spent eight years. You've had three budgets.

You've had to rely quite a lot on European funds to keep some projects going. You've managed

to do a lot of that. But looking from the outside, it's a very, very weird kind of coalition

situation. Well, the coalition that the Spaniards wanted. How do you hold it together?

Well, I think that with a lot of capacity of negotiation, and I think that the Spanish way of

doing things works, define the Spanish way of doing things. Well, in 2025, we created more jobs

than, for instance, the US economy. The economic growth in Spain represents 40% of the total

economic growth of Eurozone. I do believe that politics means just to it. You have to deliver

on social policies, on economic transformation and so on and so forth. And we have done so

on the digital side, on the green transition. But when you're sitting with your coalition colleagues,

you've got quite a wide spectrum. You've got a right-wing Catalonia over here. You've got

kind of hard left guy over here. You've got somebody very much in your image there.

Well, at the end of the day, there's a common understanding. And I can tell you that being a minority

coalition government has also made me better as Prime Minister, because not only because of my

conviction, but also obligation to talk a lot with the rest of the territory groups. Well,

perhaps for a year, but I can tell you that we've been able to pass very important laws,

such as labor market reform, pension system reform, with social peace. And by the way, it is

true in that back in 2017, the year before I took over, Spain's offer the worst territorial

and constitutional crisis in Catalonia. And nowadays in Catalonia, we have a socialist president,

so people in Catalonia recognize the effort that we have done over the last seven years in order

to normalize the situation in Catalonia. And this is also a very important goal for this term,

to 100% normalize the political and social situation in Catalonia. What does that mean?

100% normalize. So to materialize the Amnesty Law to overcome all these terrible mess that

previous administration left me when I took over back in 2018. And I think that we are in the

process, but of course it has obliged me to take very difficult decisions that in the beginning,

Spaniards were more reluctant, but nowadays they realize it was worth for the coexistence of

the Spanish territories and of course to strengthen democracy in Spain. Do you think Catalonia

will be independent in your lifetime? No, I think that Catalonia just wants to be respected,

its identity, to be recognized as well as as the vast country. And I think that diversity,

territorial diversity within Spain is not a problem, it's an asset for the good of Spain and for

the good of our prosperity. This is why I think that now if you take the polls in Catalonia and in

the vast country and other territories that they have this very strong identity,

they recognize how well and how good this government works for their interest. And I think this

is very important without breaking, of course, equal opportunities within territories and within

citizens. There's a sense in which we all feel like we're becoming Spain in 2017,

that you are somehow ahead of us. So if you look at Britain, like Spain, we had basically a

two-party system. And then suddenly we end up with our own far left, our Podemos is basically

the green party, which is now just wanted by election very radical. Then we have Farage and the

right, which feels a bit like Vox. And we have a center left prime minister who is stuck in a

similar situation to you, but is taking a completely different approach. He has been told by

his previous chief of staff. He needed to sound very tough on immigration. He needed to get the

voters back from the far right. And what's the lesson? I mean, if we're all becoming Spain in 2017,

what's the lesson for Kierstamer and the Leibogamotan? How you navigate this new world of five parties

and far left and far right and immigration? And with the independence debates going on.

From Spain, what we think is that we are urbanizing Spanish politics because this is the first time

since we have democracy, 45 years ago, that we have a coalition government at central level.

Of course, we have a regional level of municipalities, but not at central level. So we are in the

process of urbanized Spanish politics. And when it comes to the UK, I think that the framework

perhaps is the problem. The framework is how do you navigate in this world without being part

of a bigger political project? It doesn't matter if you are central left or central right

prime minister. At the end of the day, the framework where you operate and you do politics is very

tiny, very difficult to operate because there's of course a high public deficit, high public debt,

low economic growth, of course, more defense obligations and security obligations. The debate of migration

I think that the UK needs to, with all due respect, the UK needs also to reflect on

the decision taken with Brexit. We are now in a position, as it happens, I don't think

Nigel Farage will become prime minister, but it's not impossible. So there's one of the

the two big drivers of the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union. And even as though

you said earlier, a lot of Brits think it's been a complete catastrophe. How is it that one of the

chief architects of it is now being taught as a future prime minister. So I think what Rory is

saying is you seem to be suggesting that Britain needs to be far more confident about embracing

its obvious economic and political future. Indeed. Yeah. I think that is a big question

mark that British should answer. We need to keep that alliance. Brexit was a terrible loss not only

for Brits, but also for the European Union. We have also lost one of our major, let's say,

political actors when it comes to international politics and welfare of the European Union as a whole.

And middle answers are not the correct one. A bold primary colours.

Exactly. I think it's important to open that debate. But once again, of course, it will polarise

citizens in Britain, and this is a very difficult debate to face. But again, it's a question of

framework. How Britain could win more sovereignty? In my opinion, you don't win more sovereignty when

you are out of a bigger political project in our case, of course, the European Union. I mean,

imagine this being out of the European Union. It would be a disaster. You were the first

Spanish Prime Minister I've met. It hasn't raised Gibraltar in the first. By the way,

I think there were like three Labour governments in Gibraltar in Spain and in Britain.

Thanks to, I think, generosity, responsibility, and, of course, thinking about people in Gibraltar

and in Campo de Gibraltar, we managed to reach a very important agreement. So I think that this

was a very important milestone in order to scale up and strengthen in our bilateral cooperation

with the UK. But going back to your question, the problem is not about political orientation.

It's about the framework where politics in Britain operates after Brexit.

And then I think it takes to tango. I mean, the European Union is going to have to be quite generous

also in accommodating Britain if we try to get it back. So what we're afraid of is that

eventually we win the referendum. We want to come back into the European Union. And then France says,

no, no, no, no, no, no, if you come back this time, you must get much rest of it. We have to punish

you for your leaving hand. I think Europe has changed a lot over the last years.

I mean, we have, you know, we, we suffered a pandemic afterwards, a war in Ukraine,

the energy crisis, Gaza war, and nowadays Iran war. And what we see is a clear alignment

in global politics from the European Union and the UK government. So, you know, I don't think,

I don't see today any other path than more cooperation. And why not in the future?

But this is my hope with all due respect to have again the UK in the European Union.

The sad thing is when we have an example of trying to make a cooperation, for example,

on the defence funds, we didn't even succeed in something small like that. They got into a fight

about, you know, Britain is not paying enough. Britain is saying we're paying too much. And in

the end, the obvious thing, which was to tie Britain into the defence procurement, was not

successful. At the end of the day, I'm sure that we will reach an agreement. But that's the

democracy. I mean, to have different opinions and then afterwards you negotiate and you reach

an agreement. But perhaps we could do it faster. And with more generosity, more imagination from

both sides, yeah? But I think that the destiny of the UK and the European Union is the same,

the same one. And I think that we need to do a political effort to join forces and see in the

future, how do we frame this relationship? Again, as a member of the European Union or not,

in my view, it's clear that in the interest of the UK, I'm mentioning the start. There's

another one to get into the details because we can just go down rabbit holes. But there's these

constant kind of allegations of corruption against some of your colleagues who are in jail, family

members. First of all, is Spain, does Spain have a corruption problem? No, no, no, no, no. We

had it with the previous administration, unfortunately. But corruption, politics, free, it doesn't

exist. I mean, it's important to keep in mind what it exists is to have zero tolerance against

corruption. And personally, took those decisions in order to expel those cases of corruption

when it comes to some of my members of the cabinet, one precisely. And when I came to my family,

of course, I will defend the innocence of my brother and my wife. But politics nowadays,

you have this polarization. They have also the use of different associations that demand

before courts, your family, because they're just your family. And I hope that justice

makes justice. And the truth will prevail. But this is also the cause that you have to pay

sometimes nowadays doing politics. So you said in relation to some of your very close allies who

helped you to take over the party of these guys that were traveling around with you in the car,

that you regretted what had happened, that you had moments where you felt maybe that you should

resign. I mean, what went wrong? What were the lessons there? What lessons have you learned from

that? Well, there's a side dimension of this political relationship. You think that perhaps

they are your friends, but I didn't know that they, you don't know them. You think that you

know them, but you don't know them. They have a kind of high life. But what is, I think,

important is to take decisions not to just say, well, it's not a case of corruption.

Since the first moment, the very first moment that police and of course the judges open and

this corruption scandal, I took decisions proportionally to the case. And I think that is my

responsibility. And also, on the other hand, to cooperate with international organizations,

such as the OECD in order to launch a state or a national plan against corruption. All in all,

what I'm trying to say is that corruption is part and fortunately of politics. What makes the

difference is how do you respond to those scandals? And in my case, I took that responsibility,

and I was 100% tough and proportional to those kind of scandals.

My final question, I want to ask you about Gaza. I know historically Spain and Ireland have always

been very, very defined as pro-Palestinian. But again, I wonder how you developed the position

that you took. I think I'm right in saying, you're still the only European leader who's actually

called what's happening as a genocide. There's a lot of experts on international law,

on humanitarian law, that already stated as a genocide. What is happening in Gaza?

What is it about the, I know Ireland very, very well, and I understand the emotional connection.

What's the, what is it about Spain that makes it such a pro-Palestinian?

It's probably the most pro-Palestinian European country I guess. Of course, we are empathetic

with the Palestinian cause, but I would say that there's a broader picture to think about it,

which is that Spain has suffered for many years terrorism. First of all, in the past country,

in the beginning of our democracy and afterwards, we suffer a very important terrorist attack

from the jihadists during the Iraqi war. But the Israelis would say that they have

actions of terrorism. Absolutely. They are. But they are not taking the correct response to fight

against terrorism. And this is, I think, the real debate. Because, of course, there is a security

dimension when it comes to fight against terrorism. But there's also an ideological dimension

on how to fight against terrorism within society, in this case, the Palestinian society.

And I think that today, if you ask yourself, is Hamas stronger or weaker after four years of war,

or three years of war? I could tell you, perhaps, Hamas is stronger. Why is that?

Because there's a clear lack of political vision on how to fight against terrorism,

how to give and provide Palestine's political horizon for their own future. And that means,

of course, responding to the urgency, such as humanitarian aid, stopping the war in the

Gaza Strip, but also to give and provide a political horizon, which means a state of Palestine.

Do you think Netanyahu is a worker? That is not my, you know, my duty to respond it.

But I think that Israel today is more isolated internationally than before the war. And why is that?

Because Prime Minister Netanyahu took a very wrong decision when it comes to respond to this

Hamas terrorist attack, which, by the way, we, of course, condemn it since day one.

What my final question, how do we, you've talked a lot about, a Spain, you've talked a lot about

the European Union, the UK. But I'd like you to, my final question, to think a little bit about the

bigger global architecture and the global South, because there's a risk that Germany, Britain,

talk about the rules based in international order, that the reality is we have all cut our

development spending a lot. There's less support going into the global South. There's not much

support for the United Nations. Sometimes it feels so, so we only care about state sovereignty when it's

Europe. And we don't really care about it. I think the problem, all the challenges, how do we

upgrade the international order to the 21st century? And that means that worse than societies,

Western governments, we must reduce our representativeness in some of these multilateral institutions

in order to have a more representative international order, which means we will need more African

Union, we will need more Asan, more global South in multilateral institutions. Are we ready

to reduce that representativeness? Are we ready to share global governance with all the regions

with China, with India, with Brazil? And keeping at the same time what is working at international

level, that is the challenge. So Britain and France have to give up the permanent membership

of the Security Council. Well, perhaps it's something that we need to think about it. How Europe

is represented at the Security Council? How Asia, Africa, North America, South America is

represented in the different institutions. And I think that this is a very difficult question

to be answered, but I think that for the good of the world, we need to face it as Western governments

and Western societies. That is why I do believe that is a big mistake for Europe to stay that

the international order is over. Because I think that the duty of Europe today more than ever

is to be a force of good. And that means to be a force of cooperation, collaboration, to

strengthen multilateral system and of course strengthen international order.

There are also strengthen the economy. You were asking me about defence spending.

But the first question that Europe should answer is how do we increase our competitiveness?

How do we increase our productivity? How do we grow? And afterwards we can talk about

if we spend more defence, social security, social services, housing policy and so on and so forth.

And there again we have a very different view when it comes to far-right governments and I would say

centuries government, which means perhaps to enable our country's competitiveness means

to speed the green transition. Renewables are quite competitive when it comes to

let's say fossil fuels or even nuclear energy. And of course, what do we do within the European

Union to scale up our digital market? And that means that we need to change and reform and

upgrade our competition framework to forget about, you know, this is a Spaniard company. The

other one is a German company or a Spanish company, German company or France company,

French company and perhaps we should talk about European companies.

So there are many, many, many challenges for Europe and of course for the Western

governments. But at the same time, the good news is that we know what we should do.

The challenges do we have that political willingness to deliver, no?

Thank you so much. I mean, it's been a wonderful interview. We're very grateful for your time.

Thank you very, very much indeed. Thank you. It is a pleasure. Thank you.

Okay, Roy, so there's President Sanchez, quite impressive guy.

I thought he was really brilliant. I think he's a very, very skillful politician.

We didn't maybe talk enough about just some of the amazing maneuvers he's made. But he's also

a great communicator of values in such important areas. I mean, just on the maneuvers,

he's one of these people who was able to take a position and then reverse the decision.

But somehow still not be overly punished by it. So, you know, in his case, you know, he said he

was not going to give amnesty to the Catalan leaders and he did. He wasn't going to,

the implication was he wasn't going to go into business, I think, with the far left and he did.

He also did this very radical thing right at the beginning of his leadership, where he

effectively took on the entire party leadership, was thrown out of the party, started a grassroots

movement, seized back control. So, under the surface of this very articular calm communicator is

somebody who's able to make these amazing kind of political moves. Yeah, no, he's definitely a

phenomenal politician. I was speaking to quite a few of the kind of diplomatic circle

in Madrid ahead of the thing and they were all saying that, you know, he is by a long stretch,

the most impressive Spanish politician there has been for some time. Now, the other thing that

somebody said to me that was really interesting, we didn't get too much into the domestic

Spanish politics. It's not least because he's in his position on the international stage is

so interesting at the moment because he's absolutely calling out Trump in so many ways.

One of them said to me something very interesting. He said, this is not a politician who's

running a 51-49 strategy. He's running a 33-33-33 strategy. Make sure you get the 34th,

which is really interesting. And of course, the other thing that's happening in Spanish politics

is that there's a lot of focus on the far right, Vox. And he kind of plays into that. I mentioned

a lot of the questions that we got. Some of them were in the field of why do you keep sort of,

why does he keep labeling the scent that the conservative party as these kind of, you know,

terribly dangerous, et cetera, is because he's trying to ally them to the far right.

So they get a lot of debate about the far right. But the other fascinating thing going on is

there are all these parties to the left of him, including some that sit in his cabinet,

plus a now very charismatic leader, this guy called Ruffian, which I think is a wonderful name for

a politician in Catalonia, who's trying to put together a alliance to the left of Sanchez.

Now I actually think in the end, 34, 33, 33 strategy, that might help him kind of consolidate

the position in the center, push the right off to the extremes, have the left off to him.

Is that the strategy for Stammer? I mean, is that Stammer putting the greens off to his left,

making the conservatives associated with reform and coming through the middle?

I think to some extent it is. And it was very interesting, you know, when we were,

and we'll come on to his very clear advice for Keir Starber, particularly on Brexit.

But also this thing he kept saying, I mean, it was, it was my words, but he kind of lent into it

this idea about communicating in bold primary colors. I mean, everything, when you said

after the interview finished and you said, you know, he just, he's so clear,

it's because he is speaking in bold primary colors all the time, even though as you say,

sometimes the colors change. When we press them on how do you deal with this kind of Frankenstein

coalition with all these different places over there? And he afflicted it from I'm a pragmatic

politician putting all this together to it makes me a better leader that I can do with all these

different shades of behavior. So his new primary color, having fought so hard to get the coalition

is coalition makes for good politics. And that's why people like me as a leader. I mean, he's very

smart. The best primary color bit I thought was that he was able to take a radical position,

very unashamed position on immigration, connect it to growth, which people really care about.

And to values, and to values. Exactly. So that, that thing that you very, very rarely hear

a British politician say, when he said, look, when you're talking about, you know,

particularly North African immigrants coming in, yes, they're great for our economy,

they're contributing, you know, many, many times more than they're receiving a welfare.

But it's also a moral obligation. There's something about humans here.

And I thought that also connected to his international position, his comfort,

talking about ethics, international law, and framing things. And I think that's so important.

I mean, I keep coming back to my obsession with Aristotle saying that the three things that

matters for him are logos, pathos and ethos, which are the, in my terms, the policy ideas,

the communication, but also the morality. You know, what's the ethical values framework

kind of pinning it? And I thought he was very good at that.

I mean, I did a bit of sort of ringing around and before I had. And of course my all-time

favourite Spaniard, do you know who my all-time favourite Spaniard is?

A Miriam González. Correct. Mrs. Nick Clegg is my all-time favourite

Spaniard. And she will not be enjoying this conversation, because she's not a fan.

No, no. And in fact, I think maybe because of that, you said to me, Rory, I didn't think you're

going to like him as much as you think that you like him. No, the reason I thought of that is

because actually when push comes to shovarori you are basically a conservative. He is to the left

of me on all sorts of different issues. What I think Miriam doesn't like is his ability to project

himself internationally as this very progressive voice and why view it. She said for example we didn't

really get into this because I think it's too much down in the weeds of Spanish politics.

But this point about only having three budgets in eight years is partly been allowed because

he's very good at signing executive orders a bit like Trump. She would argue that he's actually

been in relation to the judiciary, free media that he's a lot more a kind of old-fashioned

sort of you know, controlling politician that he gets credit for. And also I think her other

big point is that it's all very well to talk the talk about European dynamism and European

modernizing and making the economy more efficient. But in the Spanish context is he really doing

that other than through this message about immigration. But listen I found him really compelling.

I think and I think what I go for is what I agree with you. It's just that neither he nor his team

made any effort really to find out what sort of then you they know what our interviews are like

but they weren't sort of trying to find out what we were most interested in what we were going to

push on. We set out in the introduction all of the areas that you and I had kind of thought about

getting into. And in all of them I just found him very very clear. He's got that old-fashioned thing

of listen to a question, answer the question, make a point that might lead you to another question

and on the conversation goes which I found very very refreshing. Just to go back to your point

about whether this is a Keir Starmer strategy. Interestingly when Anthony Scaramucci and I did

I'll show in Belfast and of course Belfast is part of the United Kingdom but they don't

they have very different policies, different parties, different debates but they follow our

politics very very closely. What was really interesting when I did one of my show of hands

thing about who's going to win the next election there was some support for saying it would be

Keir Starmer. There was a lot of support for saying it will be a Labour leader that is not Keir Starmer.

There was zero I think zero for the idea that the Tory is going to win the next election

and there was pretty muted pretty mutedly the idea that there was going to be for Raj.

Now I actually think that it is not impossible that Keir Starmer can win the next election in part

because of what you just identified this 34, 33, 33. The only thing I'd say is I think our

politics is even more volatile than Spanish politics right now and Keir Starmer, unfortunately from

his and Labour's perspective, doesn't have this sense that Sanchez is giving his own people

of kind of energy and dynamism direction and honestly Rory I only had you know I don't like

quoting taxi drivers, two taxi's, two taxi's, what are you doing Spain told them. The first one

he is the best president we have ever had and it's about to be realised and the second

the second I just said you know that guy I don't care what the Paul say he's going to win again.

I think it's interesting also how there would have been a very cynical view which he would have

got from some of his polling people who might have said to him a few years ago for God's sake the

only thing people care about is talking about cost of living don't go out there and champion

immigration there's a lot of people who do not want a lot of immigrants coming to Spain shut up

about that and listen people aren't that interested in international affairs and taking some big

idealistic position or not using Spanish bases is just going to piss off the Americans lead to

tariff wars, rec your relationships with NATO just shut up about it but actually I think

it's an example of where taking a very clear unambiguous primary colour position helps I mean

I know we'll get right back again into the Kirstama thing but one of the issues around his

position even if you're on your side and think it was the right thing to do is it's not a very

primary colour's position you know it's a position where we are seeing American jets taking off

from British air strips all the time while he's also taking on Trump.

Final thing I thought as I was sort of putting our interview together with the interviews we did

with Kiriakos Mitsutakis in the Prime Minister of Greece I'm with Eddie Rama in Albania and I've

been Korti Stub at Jonas Gastora in Norway these guys are only much more confident talking in a

really interesting articulate way about international affairs than almost any of the leading British

politicians and I don't know why that is there's something very odd these people feel

incredibly confident internationally now it may be that for some reason they're ending up with

people with much more international careers so he obviously served in the European Commission

Mitsutakis has worked all over the world.

The Stub was a diplomat. Exactly and and it's true that Jonas Gastora was the

executive director of the World Health Organization but there is something quite interesting about

these senior European figures where they feel much more sort of global internationally sophisticated

confident making claims about the shape of the world I mean Mark Kani would be another classic

example of this but the Brits are not I'm not hearing that from Evak Kupra I'm not hearing that

from Kirstama am I right that this British politics feels a bit different whereas I suspect

Tony Blair would have been very comfortable talking like that being one of those kind of people.

Look I think Brexit is a big part of this we'll come on to that I think that Kirstama definitely

feels instinctively that he a big part of his job is foreign affairs and foreign policy particularly

now with Ukraine and Iran and all this and that's a big part of his job but you can see in his

communication he always feels he has to be somehow relating it to cost of living your lives at home

and what have you what I'm seeing with the European leaders is less of that need and I think the

other thing to understand is that and this came through very much in particularly maybe with the

the interview with Alexander Stubb President of Finland because he does foreign policy but he

doesn't do Europe now there's still a mindset in Britain that things well Europe is foreign policy

but if you're one of these guys no it's not it is part of your everyday kind of political

political life I also think the other thing where you talked about their confidence in how they

express themselves on these issues the other thing that I think links all of those people that you

mentioned is how steadily they are becoming much much more open and frank about what they now

consider to be a fact not an opinion a fact Brexit has been really bad for Europe and dreadful

for the United Kingdom and if the British government had any sense they'd just kind of dive into

the water cold and say we're going to fix this he said it very much in those terms Stubb that is

his view that you know he said the thing about seven years to leave seven years to find out you've

made a mistake hopefully not seven years to get back in and and I think you asked him whether you

know but isn't there still the kind of French thing I'm wanting to rub these guys noses in the dirt

for a bit longer again they all seem to think you know because this is the world is now too serious

and genuinely we do miss the Brits we do lose something by not having the Brits there but listen

I completely agree with you I said last week that on the just just out of the around thing I'd love to

have heard a big speech about Churchill's view of the world I'd love to have heard a big speech

about how this is the moment for renewables to kind of have the next agenda and likewise on

this international stuff I think we've got to stop pretending it's just a kind of little extension

of domestic stuff it's fundamental the leadership required is fundamental the issues that it

write that the advisory peace prosperity energy this international situation I am with you I want

to hear I want to hear more from our politicians not sort of embarrassed about it it's so

interesting because when I answered parliament 2010 I would have said that the general feeling when

I went to EU council meetings this kind of stuff is that it was the British politicians who are

much more confident making big global statements talking about the Middle East talking about

international law and a lot of the European politicians back 1520 years ago

felt much more domestic they some of them you know Austrian politicians I can remember felt

almost like local councilors who'd somehow wandered into national politics now it's feeling

very different it now feels as though these European leaders sometimes from quite small countries

have a kind of sophistication intelligence intellectual ambition yeah we've got the Hungarian

election coming up on April the 12th that is going to be one of the most watched elections in the

world in a relatively small European country that's because all that is such a kind of part of the

MAGA thing but now I'm completely with you and I think the other thing where I'm I said to him at

one point you think Europe's lost his confidence and he said no but Europe does have to step up on

the economic dynamism does have to step up and this is where Miriam would say he's just not doing it

on policy terms but I still have this view you know when we interview that he's understood and he's

written this book the Triangle of Power Global West Global East Global South and you said to him

look maybe it should be a quadrangle of power and I am absolutely convinced that the bottom of

the quadrangle has to be Europe and interesting again even though would it when push comes to shove

and they have to saw sign or pass a treaty or get a law through their own parliament about

allowing in Ukraine, Montenegro, Albania etc will they all actually want to do that?

I don't know but he was very very clear more Europe more countries in the European Union including

hopefully Ukraine and the UK that's a proper vision that's a proper that's a proper sense of

something really big that we want to fight for and I think that what's happened post Brexit

particularly given that so many of our politicians Johnson Farage the Tories reform still try to

pretend that Brexit's been a really good thing for the country we're having a kind of la la land

debate it's not a real debate about what's actually happening in our own country it's very very

weird that I've been really choked up actually by as I say half a dozen of the European leaders

we've spoken to recently and Rory what about La Montclaw? I mean if that's your work the environment

I mean I have seen rats okay I have seen rats in Downey Street in the Elise Palace okay I didn't

see any rats you didn't see any rats that was like being in an art gallery beautiful all right

well Alistair thank you see you very soon see you soon take care bye

hello it's William Drumple again from Empire here is a clip from our recent six part series

on Mazidong the greatly forward was supposed to be on its face a kind of highly rationalised

bureaucratic system of working out what China could produce and then you know working upwards

so that you would produce you know enough food for everyone to to eat and crops that could then

be exported to increased China's GDP and everything would be great but basically because all the

figures are being fiddled by officials who are too terrified to give the real information in case

they get arrested or you know kind of fired from their their jobs they pass on statistics upwards

saying yes it's all going great and we're kind of producing huge amounts of grain and products

and up you know in the cities and then you know beyond that to Beijing the guys at the top are saying

oh well this is great when that case we can export lots to the Soviet Union so you have

the kind of obscenity of out in the countryside there isn't enough food for people to eat

while the grain is being seized and exported from the country to bring in money for the state

this is very much a rural phenomenon and that's significant because of course shortly before this

the system which did exist today was started up in China it was sort of Soviet style internal

passport system it's called a hookah or a household registration ski and it basically means that

you can't just simply wander around wherever you want in China you have to sort of have it internal

permission so people in the cities were no longer really kind of interacting that much with the

countryside they're kind of were separated off and while people in the cities you know found there

was certain amount of deprivation the devastation was really out in the countryside where essentially it

turned into mass starvation 1959 1960 61 it came clear in the countryside there simply wasn't enough

food to go around but when the news came through to the top leadership including Mao he basically

chose to ignore it it's exactly denied but he basically said well you know we need to keep going

and he said something like if things are not going so well then let's just not say anything about

it and keep going and that led to one of the great confrontations of that period which is the

conference Communist Party top-level conference held at Lu Shan we hope you enjoyed that clip to

listen to the full series such empire world history wherever you get your podcasts

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