2 Hard Questions For Christians: Can We Vote or Serve in the Military?

Almost similar in the mount, Jesus said that if your eye causes you to sin, to gouge it

out, if your hand causes you to sin, to cut it off, and I would just like to add to that

in the same line of thought that if serving in government or working a certain job or

voting for a particular candidate, if anything in our vocation or in our relationship to

worldly authorities leads us to stumble or sin or compromise in our witness, in our

walk as Christians, but I suggest the correct response to those things would be to cut them

out.

If Christ is King, how should the Christian consider the kingdoms of this world?

What does the Bible teach us about human authority and what it means to love our neighbors

and our enemies?

Before we render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, let's note it means to render unto God what

is God's.

This is the Biblical Anarchy Podcast, the modern prophetic voice against war and empire.

Say everyone, I am Jacob Winigrad, this is the Biblical Anarchy Podcast, a project of

the Libertarian Christian Institute and part of our Christian for Liberty Network.

I'm going back into the vault sort of a little bit in this episode.

We have of course here, as I just mentioned, the Christians for Liberty Network, which

is our podcast grouping for LCI, and we have the flagship podcast, Libertarian Christians

podcast, mine.

We have the Protestant Libertarian podcast, the Reform Libertarians podcast.

We have some other shows that don't quite as get as much billing or regular releases,

but that are still good, like the Faith Ventures podcast, some retired ones, like the God-Archie

podcast, with Mike Maheri, or good news, bad news, with Matthew Bellas.

Then we have another show, which I don't think anything has come out with for it recently,

although we've been kind of working on something different related to this, but we have

the Faith-Thinking Freedom book, but there was actually a companion podcast that came out

when the book, shortly after the book was released years ago, that addressed questions

that weren't in the book.

We don't do it as much anymore, mainly because we just realized there was a need to write

a second book, and that's what we've been working on, and that is pretty much done and

be published later this year, which I got to help write, but there were a couple questions

that were submitted to me through LCI, a couple of years back, and I got to actually

answer them as a guest host for the Faith-Seeking Freedom podcast.

Now instead of just republishing them because they're old and there's no video for them,

I thought, well, I'd still have my notes for those.

That was kind of a shorter podcast.

You try to keep the episodes to like five minutes long, but I did too, and so I'm just going

to combine them because actually I think they're pretty related, and this will give me some

time to, in my own style and format on my show, give the answers and let them breathe a little

bit at some of my own thoughts now, and also see if my thoughts have developed a bit because

I did write these actually going on two and a half years ago, maybe close, you know,

about three years ago now, it was November of 2023, and you know, my views have certainly

evolved a little bit.

I've gone through different things in the Libertarian Party and trying to coalition with different

groups, and so I still think I agree with the heart of my answers for these questions,

pertaining to voting and pertaining to military service, but I of course think that,

yeah, there might be more to expound here.

So these were a couple of questions that were submitted to LCI by a listener of mine,

because his name was Ethan, and I've interacted with him kind of, you know, YouTube comments.

I think we've messaged each other back and forth a little bit.

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All right, so he had, he heard me talking about the time when he had sent these emails in,

talking about Christian nationalism, and also talking a lot about the sort of Christian

and libertarian response to wars going on in Ukraine and in Gaza, and these topics prompted

some thoughts and questions that he wanted us to address.

And so the first question he had, should Christians ever take up arms in the service to their

country, or should we be conscientious objectors? So to start out, this is, I'm kind of reading from

my old script here, but I'll add a little bit as we go to, like I said, but yeah, we should define

what conscientious objector means, like what is that referring to? So a conscientious objector

is an individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform a military service

on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, or religion. The term has also been extended

to objecting to working for the military industrial complex due to a crisis of conscience.

And so a soldier may submit a 1-0 form, which is a conscientious,

it's a, you know, many syllable letter word to say over and over again, right? Yeah,

but if a conscientious objector application, when the soldier is sincerely opposed because of a

religious or deeply held moral or ethical belief, it does note in these things that

political, philosophical, or sociological beliefs don't count. And I do feel like that's a bit of a

well, cut two ways, it could cut to basically being useless or it could be kind of a cop out

because it's like, if you have an objection to something, it can be both moral and political,

or like, what is philosophy if not pertaining to morals and ethics? So I kind of feel like that's

almost a backdoor way to find ways to sort of turn down applications at whim.

But yeah, if you have the government towards moral or ethical beliefs that would cause you to

object to participating in in war in any form, you can fill out this form. This is an application

to be the one of forms and application to be released from the army. I can only be approved or

denied by the Department of the Army. Now, the soldier may also submit a one A O, which is the

application for when the soldier is sincerely, again, same language, sincerely opposed because

of religious or deeply held moral or ethical, but not political, philosophical or sociological

beliefs to participating as a combatant, including training in tactics or weapons in war in

any form. And so this is an application that results in instead of just leaving the army,

is to be assigned to non-combatant duties. So it's probably a little bit easier to do that than

to get completely out. So now that we've kind of defined the term in the broad and also discuss

the particulars of what that looks like in application, the question is, should Christians

serve in the military or should we be conscientious objectors? Well, I want to begin by reading what

our book, Face Seeking Freedom, the name sake of what this podcast originally aired on,

where this question was originally answered on, has to say about that, right? So question 64

in, uh, Face Seeking Freedom, uh, just like in any other major discussion, uh, we should always

take into account all of the factors and weigh in the benefits and costs and a, a Christian who joins

the military, uh, hold on, I'm reading my old notes here, maybe I actually have to actually open

the book and maybe that's what I did in the podcast because I feel like I, my old notes here are like

skipped ahead. So let's go to question 64 and read that here. So question 64 is can Christians serve

in the military? Uh, okay, so I'm, I, it's just reading here, but yeah, so the question is can

Christians serve in the military? Uh, the first paragraph reads just as, uh, any major decision,

we should, uh, take into account, always take into account all the factors and weigh the benefits

and costs, a Christian who joins the military should not only weigh the benefits to joining

to themselves, to the military, and to the nation it serves, but also the personal and wider costs

associated. When considering a moral choice of, uh, where a moral choice of such importance,

most of the considerations are imbalanced. For example, a young person considering joining

would look at the skill development, leadership training, mind body improvements,

and educational opportunities afforded to them by joining, but the trade-offs might only be

considered in comparison to what they are giving up. Traditional college, private employment,

extended time away from loved ones, and the possible, uh, compromise of one's morals,

this might not necessarily be what they think of, but it is a trade-off that there's this

possible compromise of one's morals, uh, through the obligation to follow orders, the, uh,

then there's the traumatic, the, the risk of traumatic, physical and mental injuries, such as PTSD

and potentially losing one's life. Uh, still reading from the book here, as disciples of Jesus,

Christians are obligated to consider far way to your things in their decisions.

So the, the first two paragraphs are kind of saying, like, listen, like with anything, do a

cost benefit analysis and consider all the trade-offs, right? And it's important to kind of point

out that there are trade-offs beyond just what might initially come to people's mind. So we're

trying to list all those trade-offs, but then this third paragraph is sort of pivoting to say

that we have, as Christians, have to do more than that, right? We're, we have to consider far

way to your things in our decisions than just the, the trade-offs to, to us individually.

So such as does this path obligate me to kill another human being because I am commanded to?

Does this path build character qualities that run counter to Christian values? And does this choice

make it impossible for me to conscientiously object to acts that I am commanded to do that go

against the love of Christ? Will I be participating in an institution that thrives on loss of life

and profits on conflict and war? Does this life choice compromise my duty to love my neighbor

as myself? With few exceptions, libertarian Christians believe that serving in the military

obligates the Christian to unquestionably obey orders, some of which make command actions that

run contrary to the principles of the kingdom of God. Remember that first century Roman soldiers

who converted to Christianity often left their military positions because they can no longer

morally justify what they did. The call to a Jew violence was too strong and their

example should still inform us today. So I think there was still a little bit more here to go.

So what would be the exception? It's tough to say, but perhaps if there was an active and present

threat to the well-being of our fellow citizens, it might be acceptable to join the military in order

to stop the aggression. Even in these circumstances, however, Christians can do many other things

other than participate in war to protect, serve, and love their neighbors. At the very least,

abstaining from promoting and cheering, quote, unquote, our side of a war conflict should be the

first step in showing Christian love to one's neighbor. It should be fully noted that the two

co-authors of this book, Carrie and Dick, both served in the US military and they fully agree

with the above statement. Now, I think I am missing some of my original notes to this question

because I end it by just reading from that question. And so I'm going to have to really add a

little bit here. I can't remember what my, I can kind of remember the spirit of what my

answer would have been. So hopefully the second question I copied over more of my notes.

This was a bit of an impromptu idea if you guys can't tell, right? So I think everything there

in question 64 is pretty good. I would maybe push that a little bit further and just really stress

that this doesn't even just apply with serving in the military. I think this kind of applies to

serving in government, broadly speaking, which is that you are sometimes sort of expected to just

follow orders. And the training that the military does, especially, police to some extent,

but especially military is to sort of like turn your brain off and to sort of obey command

without order without thought to kill on command without thought or without question to have to make

these split second decisions. Now, on one hand, I think that if you are engaged in what is in

theory, a just war, which means that it's not a war of choice. It's not a war of aggression.

It's a war of defense. I mean, you are responding to a to a to an active threat. People who are

trying to end the lives of you or your neighbors or other innocent people. And I think if you are

acting in that capacity and you want to protect people, I don't think that's un-Christian. I'm not

a pacifist, but there is something to be said about doing that through a state military or militia.

I think this is kind of less about can Christians use defensive force and more about understanding

the nature of what a state military entails and that you're going to be part of a hierarchy

that is going to demand that you sort of, I don't know, the right phrasing here, you are sort of

handing off your moral decision making, right, to them, to some extent, at least if you're like a

brunt soldier or something, maybe if you're like a general or something and you're the one making

those decisions, but even then you're going to be answering to someone, right? I mean, you're

going to be answering if you're the generals or not, I guess you answered to the president or

something. So at some point, you are kind of saying that I might be able to even on those higher

positions, I might be able to express disagreement, but at the end of the day, I'm going to have to

submit my will to someone else's and carry out that will or risk being court-martialed and dishonorably

discharged. There is some protection, I think, in the military for if the orders are really beyond

the pale, but it's not automatic and it can be dicey. Some people, it takes them a long time to

kind of like get the story out there and for people to realize that they were in the right and

their commanding officers were in the wrong, but it can be murky, it can be, you know, he said she

said, it can be about trusting the people who have the seniority, etc. I think another thing that

comes to mind is that, you know, the decision on how war is conducted and when the military is

used, always done like our country in America, is not in a done in a way that I think Christians

should support. I think that if you're going to believe and subscribe to a just war theory,

which I've done a previous episode on, I'll have that linked in the show notes. I think it's

episode 99, but I could be wrong, is that you have to of course have a just cause for going to war.

And I think that's kind of at the heart of the original intent of in writing of the constitution,

with that Congress had to declare war, which kind of meant that like we weren't going to leave

the power to rage war and like like decide to go to war and use the military strictly in the hands

of the executive. It was like you had to go before Congress, which was like a avatar for like going

to like the nation going to the people and making the case that this is a just war and we have

to go, you know, fight it. We have to clear war on these people and, you know, declare, you know,

the objectives of like, here's who needs to be defeated. Here's what victory looks like,

and this is why the force is justified and get that approval and then go do it.

Because we don't do that anymore because of just the erosion to all the checks and balances and

the War Powers Act, you can be sent halfway across the world to fight in wars that aren't

formerly declared and there's not that check and balance. So that's another consideration

that has to be made. So I think this is a question that's sort of like it, it really does depend

on the specific context. I think there's a general truth to the idea that Christians can engage in

defensive force for themselves, for their families, for their neighbors, for their communities,

even for the nation that they live in. If it's truly a just war, but you have to factor in

everything you kind of laid out there about the particulars of the military and the government

that you are serving under. And if those things are going to allow you to then just because the defense

defense, the use of defensive force might be okay. Just in the abstract, it doesn't mean that

you might not be put in a position where the execution is going to have to require you to

enter into morally dubious situations. Now, there's more I kind of want to say about this,

but I think it would make more sense to tie that into the second question, which really

ties a lot of this together. So the second question was, should Christians vote and hold political

office or focus only on spreading the gospel? This question is not specifically addressed in

faith, seeking freedom and not even indirectly addressed like the question on conscientious

objection was. So like the first question was kind of entered in question 64, but there's

like some additional sort of commentary and specifically addressing the point about conscientious

objectures to talk about. And you know, just to tie a bow on that because I kind of forgot

about that that second part about being a CEO, you know, I think that as Christians, we

it's not even just about, okay, we've identified maybe a war that's not just and maybe we shouldn't

fight on it. I think in those cases then there is a bit of a moral obligation to be a conscientious

objector not just in the literal sense of like if you're in like if you're in the army or serving

in the army and you find out you're about to serve an award that's unjust, I think, you know,

you especially you should do whatever it takes to be a conscientious objector and not participate

in evil. I think for even those of us who aren't in the military, we should be using our voices and

engaging in peaceful civil protest disobedience if necessary to stand up for what is right and to

not participate in injustice to not let our governments and our leaders just simply wage evil

without any sort of resistance from the church and the Christian community. I think the church

does serve a prophetic role in this world to, you know, express the moral will of God to those who

are in authority and to rebuke them when they use their authority to distort their role when they

become a terror to innocent lives and become those who wage evil when their role is to actually

punish those who do evil that needs to be called out. Now because there's the just use of authority

and the unjust use of authority, now this question of should Christian vote or hold political

office or focus only on spreading the gospel. Again, while the book doesn't specifically address

this, the book overall opens up in chapter one with a discussion about politics in the in the

broader sense and the abstract and that does relate to those questions and points do relate

to this topic. So question one asks why Christians should care about politics and question two

follows up by asking if Jesus's kingdom isn't of this world isn't politics being condemned and,

you know, in, sorry, isn't politics being concerned and engaged with this world and its kingdoms?

Well, what is politics? Is it just voting and running for office? Well,

not really. Here's an excerpt from the answer to question one quote, politics is a subset of the ways

in which human beings choose to relate specifically with regard to the appropriate use of physical

force and power. Culture is another means of how we relate to one another and while part of that

is political, much of it is not. In this sense, the saying politics is life is true. When we advocate

anything that affects the lives of others, we are doing politics in this very broad sense.

Most Christians believe that the gospel has implications for the real world, which makes the

gospel relevant to politics. This also means that Christians are political whether they realize it

or not. Now question two goes on to address. The gospel is in part a kingdom proclamation.

So it makes sense that if we are citizens of God's kingdom and called to be ambassadors for that

kingdom of the second second Corinthians 5 verse 20, we will therefore find that position will

put us in situations where we are in odds or intention with kingdoms of this world and called to

weigh in on matters pertaining to politics. So without a mind, what should we say to Ethan's question?

Should Christians vote? That's the first part. It's one thing to say that we ought to weigh in

or be concerned with and involve ourselves in political matters and conversations of our society

and our communities. Like in a sense, me doing this podcast is political action. You listening

to this podcast is almost political action, right? Based on the way we're defining it,

which I think is the correct way of defining it here as the book opens in chapter one.

So we obviously want to weigh in and care and believe in that prophetic mission of the church,

but does that require us to vote? And conversely, are there reasons why a Christian would perhaps

be considering that just as we talked about conscientious objection from military

participation, should there be the idea of objecting to an abstaining from voting?

So let's consider another excerpts from faith seeking freedom.

Quote, Libertarian Christians care about how people in the world relate to one another in ways

that align with the ethic and the message of the kingdom of God. We do not say that all Christians

should vote for a particular type of candidate or even vote at all. Not only do we want Christians

to be aware of human relationships that are part of what it means to be human,

but also at the forefront of pushing human relationships toward mutual benefits and interacting

peacefully. So this leads me to ask what is voting? The proponents of democracy and voting say that

this is a peaceful way to run a government as it maximizes consent and gives the government

a voice in the governing process. But on the other hand, critics of democracy point out that

voting often just comes down to majority rule, or which isn't really that different from mob rule,

is one half of the voting population pushing and forcing their beliefs and preferences on the

other half best described as peaceful. Furthermore, if we ask Christians to adopt a Libertarian

position on government based on what scripture teaches as we think Libertarianism is the most

consistent expression of Christian political thought. We see that the state is ultimately a

instrument of coercion and installing illegitimate rulers over people and isn't compatible with Christian

principles to vote for someone to be a ruler over your neighbors. It's often phrased this way,

actually, though. Well, yeah, this candidate is bad, but the other candidate is way worse,

so people argue to vote for the lesser of two evils. But is that a Christian mindset to advocate for

the, quote, lesser evil? I would say that the answer is in these scenarios and responding to these

hypotheticals or options, a Christian should consider strongly that voting is often in conflict

with our values. Now, are there exceptions as all voting ultimately petitioning for putting

someone in the position of ruler and power over your neighbors? Well, some exceptions that

potentially come to mind are voting on direct policy initiatives or referendums. It doesn't

seem that there's a conflict in voting against a referendum to raise taxes. So, meaning someone

saying, what's raised taxes? And you vote, no, let's not do that. Or, conversely, it wouldn't be

a conflict if there was a referendum to lower taxes or eliminate them or eliminate a specific

tax and you voted yes for it. Another option is protest voting. This can be done either by writing

in just something like, you know, no, or Jesus Christ is king or something like that. Or you can

choose to vote for a third party candidate or independent candidates who are running on a

platform that isn't based on seeking power, but rather seeking to dismantle or change the system.

Many libertarians consider voting for the libertarian party candidates who often run on a

platform of decentralization and giving power back to the communities and to the individuals to

govern themselves. There's also some considerations to be made on the different levels of government,

federal, state, and local. And, you know, so our application of these principles go to vary at

those different levels because of just the differences in scale and scope of those different

levels of government. Now, some Christians and libertarians and even those who are anarchists

reject these possible exceptions. It's worth noting. They believe that even votes done with

any of these considerations will ultimately be seen as consent for illegitimizing the current

system or government and that this is not only inconsistent on libertarian grounds, but on

Christian grounds, as it would be a violation of our call to not serve to masters and that we're

only supposed to view Christ as king. That perspective, I think, is one to keep in mind. And so

let me end on this. This is basically what my answer from back then. We at LCI would suggest to

Ethan and other struggling with these questions that these considerations should be wrestled with

and preyed upon. I would suggest that we should not be dogmatic and suggest that voting is always

wrong, but nor should we approach this topic casually and not be critical of any consideration given

to voting in any particular race or on any particular ballot measure. What we can absolutely affirm

is this, if at any point we are placing faith in what we do or we don't do at the ballot

as like where we put our faith or we put our hope, we are deeply an heir. Our faith and hope

should always be solely in Jesus Christ. And so if you feel led to vote, I urge you to consider

all I've said and only cast that vote if you feel you're doing so in a way that doesn't rob

from Christ or his kingdom or your allegiance to Christ and his kingdom. And if you feel convicted

about the vote as if you think you are not fully expressing faith and allegiance to Christ and his

kingdom, then maybe that's a good reason for it. Maybe that's the Holy Spirit and your conscience

telling you to abstain from voting. On the other hand, if you feel convicted not to vote,

you know, have grace for believers who feel differently and be sure only to engage in that

discussion in a way that's going to promote Christians seeking to sharpen each other so that we can

all grow and our pursuit to grow closer to Christ and improve our service to his kingdom.

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Christians for Liberty Network. Now let me add a little bit of additional thoughts on this because

now I'm, you know, it's been a couple years and you know, I kind of trade my former self a little

perhaps. So I'm thinking because I, I said that you should not vote for the lesser evil or you

should be questioning about it. Now I voted for Donald Trump in this last election. I didn't quite

do it for that kind of traditional well. It's just a luster of two evils. It was more of a Trump

and his campaign and those campaigning with him, petitioned to libertarians and made promises

to libertarians that we were going to get certain concessions and promises. And that seemed like

that was a chance worth taking. But he, and he followed through one a couple of them. He freed

Ross Albrick. I think there were a couple of appointments that went our way, so to speak.

But on balance, it's been mostly, you know, not, not in our favor. And Trump has governed in ways

that I find to be deplorable. I think his foreign policy decisions have been shameful. I think that

the way he's handled immigration has been just completely awful and un-Christian towards the

immigrants and towards civilians even. And he continues to increase spending and engage in reckless

economic policies that are bankrupting our country tariffs have not made us wealthier. They've

made us poor. So did I make a mistake there? Well, I kind of feel convicted like I did.

But at the time, I felt like, you know, I felt free in my decision. I felt like it was,

it was acceptable. And it was, you know, I was never put in my hope in Donald Trump or in this

coalition or this idea. I thought maybe some good would come from it. But it,

some good did come from it. Ross Albrecht is free. I don't think that Ross Albrecht would have been

free if Kamala Harris won. So this question kind of strikes at the heart of the fact that

life can sometimes feel like it's gray even though it's Christians. We don't want to look at things

as gray, right? Jesus says, be hot or cold. If you look warm, I'll spit you out. And I actually think

that there are usually objective right and wrongs. And we're just limited in our ability

to figure out those objective right and wrongs in particular situations. And, you know,

our limited capacity leads us to sort of cognitive dissonance. And that's, I think there's grace

in that pursuit of trying to resolve those great, what seemed like gray areas. And perhaps

disagreeing on what the right call is. I had a lot of people who thought they understood my decision

and that, you know, there's, there's, I think the major divide is this. And I didn't quite touch

on this in the answer. But because some people view voting as just this like expression, right?

It'd be like, you know, to take it to the most radical sort of way of portraying this, it's like

you're basically enslaved and you're just voting on what slave master is going to, you know,

own you. And you're making strategic expressions of preferences, right? Or like if you're in jail

and you're like voting for like, you know, I would say you're in jail like unjustly or something.

And you're voting for like them to feed you more or something. Like, you're not necessarily

like saying, I, I'm a legend to this system or to these people or I, or I approve of it

by, by casting a vote. But other people think that you are that by voting, you are kind of in

some way complicit with the system. And you're saying that you, you know, consent to, to, to that

arrangement or that in some way, you're dividing your allegiance. And yeah, I think I got it

right in this question in terms of saying that I think we need to understand that these things

have to be dealt with in a way that's not dogmatic. But recognizing that there are real dangers in

all of this military service, voting, participation in politics, it is a tough path to walk.

But Christians are called to be in the world and not of it. That is sort of calling us to walk

in a certain tension. You know, it's not saying completely retreat from the world to maintain

your sort of like purity of conscience and never, you know, be in a situation where your convictions

are challenged. But it also says that like, yeah, you gotta be careful not to get too mixed in

where you start acting like the world acts. You know, we have to remain, we have to maintain our

distinctiveness. We have to maintain our allegiance. We have to maintain our true citizenship

is in Christ's kingdom and not in the kingdom of this world. It's of course just goes without saying

that we're not going to get that perfect. None of us do when I, I don't, I don't think I did. I

don't, I think I did something's right in my voting for Trump and that I was very deliberate

to say this wasn't me becoming a, you know, wasn't becoming MAGA. I wasn't becoming a trunk

sick, a sick event. You know, a rabid like, you know, Trump, Trump or it was going to support Trump

no matter what. I was not saying that my hope and faith within Trump and if Trump lost that

the country was doomed. You know, on the other hand though, you know, perhaps there's some

criticism to be made in that I, I voted for Trump not because I thought he was a good candidate,

right? And I voted for him even knowing that he would do some bad things. But I just thought

that on balance that he would bring more good than the other candidate would. And in hindsight,

I'm not quite so, I'm not that sure about that anymore to be honest. I kind of think they

you know, both really both, you know, Harris and Trump, we know Trump is really bad. I think

Harris would have been really bad. But I had qualms about voting for the libertarian candidate

for for other reasons just because of certain positions and beliefs that he has.

It's easier to just not vote and to say my citizenship is in heaven. On the other hand,

I think that God is able to use the fact that I voted because it, you know, it put me in a position

to then be an objector to the Trump administration from the position of someone who voted for Trump.

And that, you know, I gained a lot of followers and connections and increased platform from that.

And so does that justify it? I don't know. Ultimately, I have to answer these questions for myself

in terms of, no, I don't have to stand before God at the end of days and make an account for

everything I've done. I have confidence that I'm in Christ. And so my sins are covered. But

doesn't mean I want grace to send to a bound. So that grace may have bound, obviously. So, yeah,

I think if you're approaching these questions and realizing this is difficult, I think you're

doing it in the right way. If you're approaching these questions and going, well, it's really easy.

You're dogmatically in one camper or the other that I would suggest that I think you haven't

sufficiently wrestled with these questions enough. But at the end of the day, I think the most

important takeaway is that while I wouldn't be dogmatic about the allegiance stuff, you got to have

really, really, really well clarified and drawn out lines in the sand if you're going to be in

politics or be in the military. Because if you don't, it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when

they will come for you. What I mean by that is like they will come for you and they will eventually

ask you to cross a line that you will come to regret. And you can either have the foresight to

draw those lines ahead of time and stand firm and not be bullied or pressured into violating your

conscience for the sake of a political party or a political candidate or the government or the

military. Or you can, you know, cross only figure out where that line is after you've crossed it.

And now you have to repent and deal with the regret and the harm you might have participated in.

I've walked enough not so much in the military side of things, but enough on the political side of

things to have kind of witnessed people do that. And like I wrestle with a little bit of kind of

what at the end of the day, not to completely exonerate myself, but it's not like I'm the reason

Donald Trump won, right? It's not like if I didn't cast my vote if I didn't tell people I was voting

for him, like maybe it made an impact, but I don't think I was like the, you know, the linchpin,

so to speak. But I guess what I'm going with that is that even though, you know, it didn't have

that kind of, uh, even though I didn't have that kind of impact, the, well, for one, the impact

it did have is that a lot of people will discover me for the first time because I said I was voting for

Trump. And I hope I handled that well and showing that I was voting for Trump in a very specific

way and that if people stuck around following me, they see that I've objected to Trump and a lot

of the things he's done. So I hope that's helpful. I hope that that's something that's productive.

But at the end of the day, like all I did was, was cast a vote, right? Like I, I didn't,

I've seen other people, people I've known, people I've been friends with who have been in politics

at the LP level and beyond. And when they got past a certain point of involvement and mix

sharing association, I, I don't think they had well-defined lines and they definitely crossed

ones. I think they shouldn't know because it's kind of hard. You get to this point where you think

like, well, I, you know, it's, it ends just to find the means and I have to, you know, I'll be able

to accomplish this great or good if I just kind of like tolerate this little bit of evil right here

right now. I don't think that's the way as Christians were called to operate. But like increasingly,

or maybe it's just the way it's always been, the more I see politics and how it operates,

it kind of, you know, with few exceptions to, to, to, to have a career in politics is kind of,

to have to engage in those compromises, you know, or you get very little done. Look at Thomas

Massey and Rand Paul and Ron Paul and Justin Amash, you know, the libertarians of note who have

served in the government over the last several decades, you know, it's not like they have a lot

of victories on their belt, right? I think the biggest victory that any of them have had is

Rand Paul confronting Fauci and the Epstein Files Transparency Act. Do you got to be careful?

You have to be diligent. Maybe you have a calling to walk in those circles. I feel like I have a

calling to some extent to walk in these political circles. But if you're going to walk, you know,

it would put this way, the Lord can be with you when you're walking through the valley of the

shadow of death. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have your wits about you. And you better make sure

that you're walking like the Lord is with you, but you made it better make sure you're walking

with the Lord. You better be making sure you're walking with the spirit. And again, I'm just saying

this from experience because they will push you. These things will push you. They will

they will beg you to compromise on your values and on your allegiances.

It's easier to walk away, but I don't think we're called to completely walk away. I think we have

to, you know, that's why I think the best path forward is not necessarily

infiltrate the government and change it from within necessarily, nor is it to retreat away and

pretend that the, you know, to be uninvolved in the concern of this world. But that prophetic

witness is kind of the best path forward, I think, is to, yeah, participate in politics,

but find the Christ-like way to do it. You know, I think, you know, if there's something that

there's a lot of things Christianity and libertarians will have in common. One of them is that

often when you're doing both correctly, what you're doing is going to a situation where the world

tells you there's one way to do things or another way to do things and you suggest, I actually think

there's a third way. And maybe that's, you know, not saying it's a, a sort of cheat code that

is anytime you're suggesting a third way that that's the right way, but looking for those

third ways or those other ways, definitely, you know, if the world is saying go left or go

right, always stop and look up first. I think that's a good rule of thumb. That's all I have for

you guys for today. I hope that, I hope that made sense. It was a little bit of a half prepared,

half and prompt to episode. But these are things that, you know, I continue to wrestle with. I

hope that you're wrestling with these things with me. That's what we're here to do at LCI,

what I try to do with this podcast. Let's make sure we don't make idols out of these things,

which make sure that our allegiance is to Christ alone. Let's be willing to go into the fire

if that's what it cost us to serve the Lord and to worship Him alone. And that was concluded by

saying, live at peace, live for Christ, take care. The Biblical Anarchy Podcast is a part of the

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