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0:00Yeah, the songs were so sure that that was that we could run through the songs twice and you know start writing a new song. And so and that was incredible to actually create panic actually recorded and mixed our our first demo tape that we did in 1988, I think. Which yeah, incredible guy and incredible. I remember so clearly just the conversation being really on musal and we were incredibly on musal and it was really just like, yeah, just describing sounds and having fun describing sounds with somebody to try and get an idea of how you wanted the overall thing to sound. And it was just just such good fortune to meet him to meet someone that was like that good nature and hilarious and unpretentious about about music and really supportive as well actually really really really supported doesn't he actually.

1:05Before that yeah it was really hard to find places to play gigs and we put on a couple of gigs. Well actually the first thing we played actually was upstairs at 46 West George Street, which was which I've missed that part of the story actually which was before Dawson started playing we were going to splash one happenings that were happening and I think it was 85 and 86 it was trying to look up. I don't know if it went later than that but we would basically smash one would happen was was an e club run by Bob Bigel S. Bayer. I would never knew if Stephen Pastel was involved with the running of it but but I know Bob Bigel S. Bay definitely was and it's one of those things you could actually get into a place when you're wearing 18 you could you know you didn't need ID the bounce rates would just kind of be like what age are you in the face head 18. You know what they said they were just a watch your date of birth and if you could remember your date of birth you checked out to the end and you would get in but that's so that's but that was a really a really formative influence so we would go to splash one we were still at school and we'd go to splash one on Sunday and sometimes walk home and get home at four in the morning and then go to school on the Monday and the and the bands that were the bands that were at splash one.

2:30We got to see like sonic youth and fire hose so yeah so I know we I think we were into fire hose before we were even into the minute man actually think they found out about fire hose first so so yeah we got to sonic youth and fire hose and 23 should do played as well which was totally incredible and they were they were moving. They were less in there the funk stage in the morning to they were also into an electron hip hop stuff but it was totally totally brilliant and and famously Jesus Mary chain played there when their first single just come out and so before they were like playing the bar is and there was riots and stuff played this like 46 west I think it's called daddy war box before I can't remember the name of it I think it was daddy war box at that point but anyways. Jesus Mary chain played until like a 300 capacity place for whatever it is and the base amp blew up and basically so that's you know the Jesus Mary chain without the base amp this just basically came back and shouting which was a really amazing show and so yeah it was really hard to find places to play back then and

3:52Craig Tannock was one of the people who started to find places and gave us a gave us an opportunity to play like for one or the Craig Tannock scoped out what became King Tutts wow that was just a buzzer that had a back room like a really big function sweet and Craig start putting on gigs there and then and then D.F saw that it was a really cool space and bought the whole place up. So yes so Craig gave us some of those early gigs we played and band called component the billets who I think are still going like a scab and then and then we got to play with teenage fan club with John Peele D. Jane. And that's a that's a layer of gig that Craig did that's just to say that Craig recorded our first demo and was really supportive and that was really great for to meet him and then and then I suppose the next part of the story was that we also recorded our first single at power and but with Calum so that's when I started doing the record label as well basically which is called

5:07the record record record still is actually still the some shapes record came out on gruff and other labels as well and yeah want to do more with it but so that's when you start the record label senate to John Peele actually we'd already been played on radio Scotland by Peter Eastern that my he Peter Eastern on Beat Patrol and I think I think John Kavanaugh played us as well but So I do remember the first time we were played on radio Scotland but then I also remember being in a bed sit in the West end and picking up the phone and John Peele was near the phone. It's just like got your single I'm into it I'm going to play it tonight and then we arranged it yeah then we arranged to do the sessions and it's you know a lot of people know this and I and maybe some people don't know it but I'll just almost a cliche but just to go through it. So this the importance of Peele at that time is just you know I mean it just can't be overstated not just the thing of getting played in the radio and doing it I mean doing a Peele session was like the you know for like punk rockers to get paid BBC rates to go and play a Peele session but basically would fund you to do a tour that was going to lose money do you know what I mean because yeah we were just we were playing small gigs and not getting guarantees or any of that stuff.

6:32So so there's that there's the money of doing a Peele session but then there's also and yeah the fact that he people would get in contact you would read out your address and people would get in contact and other bands would get in contact with you. So I really famous one for me actually was God is my co-pilot from New York. John Peele played God is my co-pilot that's what it was and I and I sent off to buy their CD and then they said over hope to come to Europe to do a Peele session on some gigs and I set up some gigs for them. Well that's going anywhere on my best sterling and then yeah and then they became some of my great pals and I've played and God is my co-pilot when it sometimes when they came to Europe and we myself and Craig had a band called Pope John which was in about 1994 or 5 that had Caroline Crabble in it and

7:42it was Saxophone player. Yeah. Saxophone player yeah who weaves in and out of this story. So Jason Boyce who was in Dandelion adventure. Do Nice Be As Want To Make Speak As One. John the Mayor. Do that again. Do that again. Yeah.

8:48Yeah. You can read about this scene in John Rob's book Death to Trag Rock gives you a really good history that kind of post post punk thing. So I guess that's the context for a lot of the stuff you're talking about here. A lot of bands are played on Peele and there's a big scotch contingent of kind of noisy weird punk bands. So then beside of things the dog face hermins and but then glass with a dozen stretch heads for the other bands and you're all kind of hooked up with other bands around the UK. There seem to be a lot of collaboration and touring support for each other. Yeah absolutely absolutely that's yeah that is a great place and also the the the John Rob book also is crucial for us because it played him. Yeah because it talks about the wrong John's records bands. And big flame especially were just like a sort of massive influence.

9:50I mean kind of like when I say very much all only conscious influence that for all they had for starting guitar. You know, to start playing guitar in Dawson any of us to try and sound like Greg a key from big flame. The treble back back pick up only treble. And yeah so you're right that's I know a lot of this people were connected and even people like John Rob's or membranes were already connected to the pastels and pastels were connected with yet and. I've actually got a list of well maybe that's a bit later but the other the other bands that were around in Glasgow at the time were badge wearer or whirling pig dervish.

10:51They were both bands that put out on gruff with and stretch heads and stretch head stretch heads were really palli with dog face termings and then we got pally with the stretch heads and then got pally with the dog face termings and actually the first time. Dawson went to Europe in 1991 the dog face hermins organized those gigs and and we went and and they played the gigs and around that time we started a Glasgow music collective as well, which initially had it was kind of in spark because there was a because there was an Edinburgh musicians collective that that had rehearsal studios and stuff I think that dog face hermins were involved with. And so we had all these sort of highfalutin ideas of what we were doing and Glasgow music collective pretty much just and I've just put on gigs that was all we did we all talked a lot about trying to get sort of collective studio spaces together and everything but it didn't happen.

11:59But yeah, I wanted to get a wee name check of the people who started the Glasgow music collective, which was women called news me and a woman called Joyce Monahan, who is in a band called We Are the Men. They're crucial in that it was such a bloke he seen. There was some women who played music but it was so bloke but we are the men were you know it was all women and you know by design, you know what I mean we're like we're going to we're going to make a band is all women and and kind of challenge a lot of the bloke kind of bloke muses or kind of attitudes to play in. I don't I'm not sure I don't know if they if they were into raincoats and bands like that but there's definitely a kinship and and really yeah really strong attitude. So they were really they were really important I think and and so that's so Joyce from We Are the Men, Guy called Jim Kavanaugh who ran egg records.

13:09And egg records put out more kind of tune full you know C86 that the set of folks don't know that was the cassette that enemy put out in 1986 that had a crossover of more sort of tune full guitar bands like McCarthy and close lobsters and bands like that and then slightly noisier stuff on run Jones records like a witness and big flame. And yeah so so Jim Kavanaugh did egg records which is a bit more like the tune full kind of sort of you know yeah that kind of slightly also sort of. Quite militantly anti rock music which which which is brilliant and there's a lot of those bands like bands like the McCarthy who went on to be stereo having all that that I really loved but anyway Jim the funny thing about Jim Kavanaugh and egg records is that he one of the bands he put out is called remember fun.

14:19Yeah that's turning out to be really big Donald and and me and Raymond like literally 30 years later had done a had done a duo show and we're having a beer in the bar afterwards and chatting about playing in bands back in the day and we haven't realized that I certainly hadn't realized that Raymond had been a remember fun and that we'd been like you know two degrees of separation away from each other. Which is hilarious I was just finishing up the first group of people that were involved with the Glasgow music collective which was Joyce Martin from we are the man Jim Kavanaugh from egg records I guess McFee who is in a band called blue and yeah it was inspirational lots of we see the wee bit older than us and he had like the proper also had proper DIY spirit of like making his own records and. Make him's on t-shirts because he's on tours anyway so Angus that was the three main I think sandy Blair from a band called the poison sisters if you've heard of him I think I think he was also in that first iteration but definitely me Joyce Jim and Angus and then so if we're talking about looking around and one of the so the music collective put on a bunch of gigs went from.

15:42Nineteen ninety twenty eight I think put on lots of different stuff and but crucially I'd say maybe two of the crucial bands that we put on is the honkies which was also kind of like crabble yeah and Richard Harrison drumming and a diagram playing the trumpet and Kathy Hume actually who has been played it I think two counter flows ago. I can't remember the name of the group shows in with Robin but the hairdressers yeah and you something like that yeah yeah yeah cool cool so Kathy was in the honkies John John Edwards joined that band actually later on so that's when I first start to know John and early nineties and then and I was looking at the old music collective poster stuff I was sending a link to a page it's got a bunch of.

16:42I think it's a bunch of flowers actually which is interesting because I think it's I mean I love how music so how people are so diverse and eclectic in their tastes now with music I think I think that's one of the things with the internet isn't it's it's people can access different stuff and they make connections between stuff and I think it's much less tribal it used to be really tribal so although it's not doesn't seem like a big deal we would put the honkies on with like some kind of hardcore. Or band or kind of discord records band and you know people were definitely open minded enough to get into it but I think it was quite rare and those days and fair play to the honkies they were you know they were totally up for it of bringing bringing free jazz to to noisy guitar audiences you know so so the honkies was a really crucial one and just to say that was the other thing I think it's a lot of fun.

17:42I think I was the other side that there was the kind of anacle punk thing we're not the kind of the anacle punk thing was a yeah we had a lot of friends in that world as well bands like Diseffect and Sedition especially and a bunch of others vomit head was a man played as well but then sedition and then we had a lot of fun games, Scathar and a bit later on but so they were all those folks were also coming to see gigs that had like honkies free jazz stuff and those folks were not listening to free jazz at home drum and they were listening to noisy guitar stuff. Yeah the honkies was a really important band and they played quite a few times the music collective and then and then the X was a was a was a was a important band obviously the first time they came to Scotland we organized a bunch of gigs in Glasgow Edinburgh sterling perth.

18:47I think the boys were good huh and sterling. So you are you sure I was blizzard no I was I was 11. I love that building because it's has an amazing motto on the on the front under the Eve and it's a quarreling is taboo. I love that but blizzard mind to think they explain there and yeah all because the X have every gig they've ever done listed on the website which is really interesting so I was going to find out about that. Okay yeah and the the yeah the famously the X they started off with them Terry and it was Luke that was playing the bass on that tour and the first song there's like doors at either side of the stage was like a few stairs that went up to the small stage with doors either side and the first song cat counted it in and they own the doors and came out like.

19:48Like a cook o'clock what an either side of the stage. Quite hilarious. So yeah but that was yeah so the so the first time they explained Glasgow and Andy Moore from dog food sermons was was playing. Playing in that configuration yeah it was just it was it was it was it was a it was a form of moment the not just. The music was totally incredible and the energy was through the roof and the politics was amazing and they were super friendly. Nice hilarious folks and but also just the culture they came from that coming from a cult I'd sort of deep culture deep score. In the Netherlands we just didn't have that in Scotland we've never had that in the same way that London had it around that time and Manchester said more of it and I think leads us a bit more but yeah Scotland's just not had that and.

20:58I think people who came from the like such a different culture of daily life do not mean rather than just daily life. Being I don't know like the. It's not a thing isn't it we're talking about space again it's just like if you don't have space that. I use you to define the culture outside of the mainstream culture it's really hard. And they came from a world where there was space and there was collective. Non private space that was sort of politicized and to get to go and see that was just like yeah totally opened our eyes to different ways of living as well as not just different ways of thinking. The other important thing about the X was was the musical influences as well the guy selling merchandise on that first X tour as a guy called Gert.

22:02You know Gert you wrote a bit called not they wrote a bit called not for rent which I think you'd be really interested in which is okay. It's kind of counter culture stuff in the UK written with when called Stacy Wakefield and Gert and it was sort of covering road protests and. But also music stuff the one in 12 club and Bradford which was which is still open and was like a massive in the UK was the closest thing we had to something like a social like a European social center. One in 12 club is in Bradford yeah it was a place that we played a lot got some played a lot and every in all the bands afterwards have played a lot. And it was yeah it was an anarchist run a social center and why the hell is it talking about that.

23:06The X. Thank you very much. Yeah, I don't know if I was in 12 but anyway. Gert was the guy who was doing the merch for the X they came that tour and. The sound for them that's why I got to one in 12 because Gert's book not for rent covered the one in 12 so that's that's what. And and yes so Gert became a really brilliant friend and. The X obviously there always been really a folk music from all over at that point they were they were getting really into home getting folk music and they did like a cover of a music has. And and. We don't the dust and folks had always been into different times of folk music as well we used to have a we.

24:09Distro that we took when he did gigs that had like you know hardcore punk records and. Can I run johnson a records and and like Bulgarian folk music and on getting for music and especially Bulgarian on getting folk because. And so I think that folks from those countries didn't have any currency to buy records or you quite often get. Letters from folk warning. Graph with stuff and not having any cash so the only thing they could offer. In return was folk music but the records were totally amazing. Hungarian dance house compilations and yeah kind of more obscure Bulgarian folk music which is some of it's like you know really nice and gritty. I've got a few I picked up in in the Sterling ox I'm a couple years ago. Okay music as album. Right a couple other on hungara tone. Just like the state label. Exactly. And it's a hard to go to music. It's great.

25:09Okay. It's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Is that said it's relentless isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then it was also interesting because it was a. There's so much chat about Scottish folk culture then it was kind of interesting. I don't I'm not massively knowledgeable about hungry at all but there was this that huge folk revival that happened and even though a lot of this stuff was sanctioned and came through the state. Record label. I mean like I say I'm not knowledgeable but it was still it seemed to be like the folk culture was really blossoming. And being supported not to say that that's straightforward. I mean I don't I don't know how it ties in with notions of Hungarian nationalism or whatever but still just from on a kind of unamuseical. You know interfacing the music it seemed like really cool and really kind of vibrant. So that so so Ger who now runs red wig records who put out King Aisoba.

26:17Yeah loads of sort of post punk stuff. I was them. I was a brown label. At this point I wanted to mention that there's a tape the Ger made for me copied for me. I was a of Mourish music for Mauritania which is califa old E day and dimming mint Abba and what's interesting is the. Dimming mint Abba is the stepmom of Nurem and Somalia that played it kind of was there. I wanted to play a bit of that because because that was a tape one of it's just a nice example of a tape that Ger made me in 1991 or 92. Yeah that I listened to to death and then I like I said then it comes around again. It's sort of like connects to counter flows.

27:21I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

28:37I don't know. I don't know. The other important thing around that time was that the egg started getting into improvising. Yeah. The first record that did from the Bimhouse, the jazz place in Amsterdam. And it's another loop around because there's a track. I'd love to play a track off of that.

29:40And some of the players that are on there were playing in the ICP. I mean handbending of course was involved and Walter were boss people like that. And again it's a nice loop around because years later ICP came and played with the glassgum and Pfizer orchestra. And then I think playing if they X and in other configurations in the ICP actually got to kind of share a stage with them and Walter were boss and people like that. So yeah so the X for so for all those reasons X was just so important. Like a kind of door into a culture and then and then the improvising and the folk culture stuff. Music

30:42Music Music Music

32:00Music And that was at 90 also I think. Stretch Edson and Dawson both played with Fagazze at the Mayfair. The first time Fagazze came and then Dawson played with them later at the bar as. And then after that the music collective. Fagazzo. But yeah definitely. The the DIY culture that's it there was yeah there was lots of different. Different strands feeding into it. I think I think what was cool about Glasgow was that the the DIY culture was aesthetically pretty does diverse.

33:06And then when I was a little bit more like the bands like all those important bands that came a little bit after like him. Yeah, yummy for, Hornocoyote, these were all these bands that were a bit more influenced by, you know, Kleenex and maybe fire engines and other kind of more melodic stuff. But it wasn't that DIY was just like full on aggressive guitars. I feel like it was quite diverse. Another really important band actually for DIY is Nyafi or is. Oh yeah, yeah. Who, who is the other great? Totally amazing, totally amazing. One off and, you know, also for that thing of not being in Glasgow, they were in airshare, they were in Kamlaka thing. And, and dog face sermons were into them and Nyafi or is played in Glasgow with the

34:11music collective and played quite a bit with dog face sermons. But so they were very DIY but they never talked. They never used that terminology but they were completely, it was completely like, you know, playing in like, you know, town halls and village halls in airshare. Yeah, it doesn't get much more DIY. Yeah, well, so that's a folk influence coming in as well with Nyafi or is combined with this kind of literally DIY, and no about in style, home junk instruments. The bar cage was at the call that which is just like some kind of scaffolding with thing bits of metal lying from it that they'd bash. Totally. And, and just deal battles. Yeah, and there's a bit of, they do the, the toilet roll, saxophone solo.

35:11Like Frijas through a toilet roll. On that first album it's great. Yeah. But, but that's true. It's like also the folk music thing is like they had really beautiful songs as well. Like had the total attack and rage but had really some really beautiful songs in hilarious songs as well. But also had some really beautiful songs. And, and talking about folks. So yeah, so all the all the kind of anarcho punks were really in Nyafi it is. And they were also I first heard like Dick Gawken through, through Bryse and Angus who were in sedition and Bryse was later in Dawson. And I heard, and they grew up, they grew up with their, you know, their dad's been really in the folk and stuff. Bryse's dad been really in the folk music. So, but that's really interesting to me that, you know, I heard Dick Gawken from, from the anarcho punks, I didn't hear through it, through the folk scene. And like you say, it's almost like Nyafi is the great combination of those things.

36:15Yeah. I mean, Dick Gawden and the politics are really sound as well. And, you know, handful of earth, kind of classic state of the nation folk album really from 1988 about the industrialization and recognizing what was happening with that show. And this was post 1979, devolution referendum, kind of has a meaning on that record as outland. Yeah. So, yeah, there's so much rich content there. Yeah. And, and as far as the DIY scene goes in Glasgow, those, especially the guys from sedition and SCATH are, they were, they were also getting really into, to thinking about nationalism and thinking about histories and, and thinking about imagery and trying to pick apart, you know, so there's always been so many, you know, Nazis trying to muscle in on any kind of idea of, you know, racial purity and also in sort of in the Celtic chat.

37:17But there was people who also really believed, this is, yeah, in, in the particularity, of, of place, trying to know gets sucked into some ironic nationalism, but trying really explore particularity of place as well. And again, that was happening in the, in the anarcho punks as well as, as sort of focus, you know, which, yeah. To what extent were things like the pull tax moving in for, I mean, I know stretch heads had to track on an anti-pull tax compilation, for example, but, um, that's what's moving into the early 90sers. And one thing that was a trick me, I remembered Phil from stretch heads saying, it's a huntsabotur group that some of the bands were connected to. Yeah, I used to, I used to go hunt salmon, actually. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I used to do it myself. And not, I wasn't, I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't massively involved, but I would go out a few times a year. And it's really kind of instructive for, um, how, how the class system functions in the,

38:25in the outside the city. And you would just, yeah, it was just really instructive that how entrenched that class stuff was just like, it was basically tofs that are trying to charge you down on their horses. And they've got, you know, badly paid, soldiers trying to, trying to crack your heads. I mean, a lot of really nasty things happened and those things people got really beating up really fucking badly because, because yeah, they would get really violent those things. And, uh, and obviously from a sort of, it is really interesting like that scene was, this, the start of so much of sort of ecological thinking animal rights, of course, but, but, you know, it was in the A is the, the ecological stuff was moving from the hippies through at the punks, wasn't it? And, and it was really instructive to just go and stand in front of a horse to protect

39:28a, a fox was like, just giving it that importance in a way you can say it's like, how do you, how do you start to, what do you, what battles do you choose to fight when there's so much oppression and there's so much, uh, environmental damage, um, and violence in everything, but, but yeah, it, it was, it felt really important just to fucking, uh, to try and save the life of a, of a fox and a beautiful, beautiful animals, um, and they, and they've looked all the more beautiful when they're in contrast to like, people with spades trying to crack their head and literally, tops, tops and horses trying to charge you down. So yeah, so the hunt saps was a big thing, yeah, and the pull tax, I wasn't, I wasn't massively involved, but it was very much, there's people who were really involved with

40:29organizing and going and standing in front of doors to stop bailiffs getting in, uh, it really, it was, I mean, famously, I think, I think you had, did you have marien from Grogsley's sermons with the no pull tax dress on and, oh, right, yeah, blessed it. So the, yeah, the, the pull tax, it was really present, um, like I said, I wasn't, I wasn't involved directly with that, um, set a culture was another big thing, obviously, that, uh, obviously there was that, was that great book that's got James Kellman and, oh, the worker city. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is, yeah, and stretchers also have a, have a brilliant song about it. Yeah. Yeah. How swife up your fucking arse music, I think it's got to be. Just to give the listeners a bit of context, uh, night and night, it was the year of culture in

41:29Glasgow, it was your being city of culture, and, well, there was a lot of positive stuff came out of that. I think there was also quite rightly criticism of it being a kind of agent of gentrification, maybe focusing on more kind of official culture and presenting a kind of yuppie-fied version of Glasgow, sort of working class voices were left out, the grassroots were maybe left out, it was kind of a very top-down, new liberal version of culture, um, and I met, there's a great book, it's just, it's all online, uh, the worker city collective, without seriously books, people at Jim Kellman writing for it, and critiquing some of those aspects of the sort of culture. That's, it's very much about, about taking the elements that were palatable for tourists, and selling, and also at the same time selling that back to Glasgow regions, as, as, as, as, as like, as the, as the culture that got supported, you know,

42:34I mean, at the time I didn't see any, was interesting, you were saying that there were some things that came out of it, but at the time I didn't see anything positive from at all, it felt, yeah, it felt really disempowering and, and yeah, and really like monetising folk culture, the most palatable parts of folk culture being money to have monetised and, uh, and trying to convince Glasgow regions that that's, that was their culture, you know. Yeah, because I suppose you see a lot of the roots of what is no official Scottish culture, kind of from that time and the building of the concert hall, and, um, early Celtic connections, the big folk and roots festival, um, that happens every year, has its kind of roots and, and stuff like that, and the jazz festival happened around the same time and so on, so they're, yeah. That's, and Celtic connections is really fascinating because Danny Kyle that, that's, that started it, was the dad of Danny Kyle who, Ali who is in Dawson and still is, in some shapes and everything,

43:40he, they were, they were good pals and, and also Helen Kyle was one of the people who did this sit in a killing park, when, when that, when that was closed down as a, as a community center, and then she was part of that sit in, but what's really interesting, so just to say that they were, is there really interesting change from, from a, a militant culture and a very open-hearted folk culture, very, and, you know, very down to earth, and, and, and, and that desire for folk culture to be, um, to be supported and recognised, you know what I mean, which is you can see the drive for something like Celtic connections, to not have folk culture marginalized, but to have it, kind of brought into the centre of the culture and validated, but then of course within a new liberal setting, it gets validated in terms of, of very particular set criteria of, basically, the, of the spectacular, you know, and, and in the end, yeah, that's a whole other podcast, isn't it?

44:48Like, where, where folk music has got to, and, and how, kind of capitalist model has just, foregrounded the spectacular and economic aspects of it, and, yeah, and backgrounded the, the, the militancy of it.

46:18éricle tried to find a journey and try to find breaking the You're just a man! You're a man!

47:18I'm trying to walk the times! Just a man! I'm trying to walk the times! I'm trying to walk the times! Just a man! Just a man! Just a man! You f-! Oh, ho, ho! Oh, ho, ho, ho! Oh, ho, ho, ho! We're talking a bit about the music of Dawson, because we've done a lot of the context and so on. But maybe just seeing the sort of musical trajectory, and starting off from the Svay Stripdown guitars, to using more electronic elements on the later records. Yeah, I mean, actually, that's a great point.

48:18The main thing is, the main thing is, is that we were so in the dub, and there's these like really chaotic, like it's dense chaotic music, and then you're adding in like heaps of delays that are feeding back on themselves, and like test tones on the desk, with delays, and that was the thing that I was like, like dub was a really big influence, or was it looking at it? No, at the beginning. There was a lot of dub around, you know? That was a lot of the music we listened to when in our late teens, early 20s, I wasn't so much into the smoking and pills, but other folks were, and there was a lot of that around us. And then, yeah, and Reggie and Dub was like, yeah, a really massive thing,

49:18and I'd kind of forgotten that, and actually, to my surprise, I think they sound pretty good. Those dub's, they sound pretty chaotic, and almost a little bit, I mean, I shouldn't really put it in the same sentence, but it kind of reminds me of the pop group or something like that, like in terms of it being, sort of being into being dance music, but being really hard as well. So yeah, I really enjoyed that. And then, yeah, you're right, the second DOS LP, we start, the resilience of improv in it, and sampling, and actually, that's one thing that's really interesting is, like I was saying earlier, but the hip hop thing, there was a lot of really good, British hip hop around that time, and music collective, you can put on a couple of shows by a guy called Blade, and, yeah, a band called Gunshot, you know Gunshot? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or kind of hip hop collective. And so, music collective put a gig on,

50:18and there's a band, there was a group called High Jack, another London hip hop group, that DOS sampled, and it was one of the second record, and really interestingly, we just sampled, sampling was pretty new, it was 91 new to us, maybe new, it wasn't new, but it was getting to the point where Akai Samplers were in most studios. So, the other thing, the important thing to say about it was first two DOS records is that, they were recorded at Taurus Studios, and Richie was working at Taurus Studios, and we would record them through the night, on the downtime, basically, and Richie was engineering and playing. But yeah, and so there were samplers there, so yeah, we mess around with samplers, and Bryce and Ingus came and did a sort of chanting, and banging of metal percussion. So yeah, the second, the second half of that second DOS record, just started to stretch out, and be more improv-y,

51:19and kind of making it in the studio rather than going in with songs, like I was saying, that you rehearsed, that were super tight, and then you went and did it, we kind of made it a bit more. And the other interesting thing, it's kind of talking about context, again, that's really interesting. Listen to that second DOS record, the track that's got the hip hop sample in it, also has a sample of Umu Sangri from Mali, which was another record that Gert put me on to. But it's just with the interesting that we didn't think twice about the GALITAs or any notions of appropriation, that was just, we just really thought it was a nice sound, and we just sampled it and slammed it across the whole, the whole track, and actually, and limbs to say the Manchester poet, he sampled on it as well. But it was just interesting, you know, you cringe about listening back to, because there just wasn't dialogue about, about appropriation of other cultures, then sampling, especially at that point,

52:19was just people grabbing what they wanted from where they wanted. So yeah, and then the third record, we so Richie left the band, and the third LP was Robbie McHendrick, drumming on it, who's totally, who's amazing, and was like, somebody else we grew up with. But it kind of went from that second LP start to be a bit more exploratory, and then it tightened up a bit, although we had Will Prentice, who played in Gila Monster, was playing Bulgarian backpipes on it, on that third loss in record. Medical backpipes, it's the same thing. Yeah, that's right. I hang it together. There's kind of less electronics on the third one. Yeah. But I think the little bits of African guitar and stuff, and the third one start to be a bit more prevalent. Yeah. Yeah. And it's probably a little bit, like I said, there's a bunch of mid 90s bands that are in that we're all.

53:22We're good bands. There's bands with Graham Gavin, I played in a band called James Melis, Here Weave Quartet. To the two shop after the two shop. Guys, because we were cheesy, which had, which was Richie Flynn drums and, and Graham Gavin, who went on to be in Ganger, who was in log war and then went on to be in Ganger, and then, and then he's in the gymnastic band now. So Graham was in that with me and Richie, and it was in a band called Nostril, which was, it was also Richie drumming and, a hubby RM Hubbard was playing bass on that band. And Simon Henderson, who went on to do, to do most of the work with the music collectives was in that band afterwards. And a band called Brittlehip, which was, it was members of stretchheads and Archbishop Kibab,

54:22who we didn't talk about yet for Merrill. Oh, yeah, we played them on the first show in their, their great. I totally. So, so Neal from Archbishop Kibab was, and Angela playing saxomarch bishop Kibab. She was in Brittlehip and 20 Kennedy from Baduera, who we haven't talked much about either. Baduera, I put the first couple of records, my Baduera run gruff, and then they did a bunch of records, we guided my style, actually, down in London, but also, yeah, did a, did a lot of music, different folks as well. And so that was, yeah, kind of mid and 90s. And then I moved, it's not really important where I moved to, but I moved down to Brighton for a bit. And that's when I started to get more into improv stuff, I played with a really fun, amazing guy called Ian Paxton, who does think called Hamilton Yarns, which is like a sort of, and that's great. It's kind of, it's almost like some kind of sort of chamber story, telling group or something.

55:22Really, yeah, pretty unique. I think it's really great. So, but she, so, and she's a very unrock drummer. And, yeah, just very playful. And, and you know, amazing musician. So I start to do quite a lot of improv with him, basically, excuse me. And with a cellop, they're called Bella Emerson. And so, yeah, so in Brighton, that's, yeah, that's when I started to actually do that a bit more regularly. I mean, I don't think it was that good, but it was still, and one of those things that, after seeing the X and all that, like 10 years earlier, doing that stuff, took me about that long to find people to play with, or maybe find the guts to have a go at it. And I ran that time in Brighton, actually, I started playing with, with my, with my amazing chosen family sisters, we call each other Lisa Fanon.

56:22And, you started a band, actually, with a drummer from New York, who's a really good pal, who is a really good pal, called Dave Powell. And we, that was called Clack. And we started, and Dave came to Brighton and we played. And then, I, then we went to America and did some gigs with Clack. And Lisa was playing Viola and doing spoken word stuff. And, actually, another band during that time was Runt, which was with Will, who was a drummer from Dogface Hermans. And Craig Flanagan, who is the guitar player from, God's Macopilot. And then, laterally, I called Dave Campbell, who played in a band called I'm Being Good, who are really brilliant, noise rock band from Brighton. And so, it was, it was Will, and then, me and Craig, and then Will, and me and Dave. So that did quite a lot,

57:22Runt, played in, in, yeah, Belgium and Holland and stuff and, moved there. And never, just given me a, like, chlack to, also still getting out so, adding Director Collar, if these are, I get, maybe they're gonna um, so, so, I guess, yeah, for me musically think, Um, and Lisa also does some loops of words. And definitely, I certainly like to play is actually from Lisa did a a big poetry called fault line and then did a lot of uh, then did a uh got a lot of guests to to work with our uh lots of amazing people. So yeah, so the one day, play the one called new clear that also has ours and rule on it.

58:41Here Ashima Nagasaki, if we all were velvet gloves, can we put you back? Black box, lower you down, chance, arrow tip, never to target, no target to find. Mankind marching on gravel, hands up in the air, fade out, the sound of crystal clear running water, too late, wait. Someone said something about an ice wall, 1.4 kilometers of coolant to freeze the groundwater around the spill, leaching from a thousand hastily constructed tanks, 355,000 tons of radioactive water, 400 more washing out every day. A lead cover falls, a candle blows out, it's cold, it's frantic, but when you use flashes, then no more, these flashes, then it was quiet. Just the constant, slow leak of cesium hot spots, for all the steel walls they had raised in a

59:45sea bed around the cripple plants, collapsed at the edge of the ocean, clutching at its sides, the hot hot water pouring through its fingers. On the ocean floor, fishes where tectonic plates are slowly yawning upon.