25 Years After 9/11. Mamdani Drops Toxin Docs. “They Lied, We Died.” Plus: Mullen On Afghanistan. The Digital Dunkirk. Abbey Gate. Admiral Mike Mullen (Replay)

0:00This is Belie, one network, every topic, everywhere. Welcome to Independent Americans. Welcome to the week of the 25th anniversary of 9-11 on your host Paul Reikoff. This is just blocks from where it all happened. If you see it on TV, these are the beams of lights. They actually come from the top of a parking garage in Lower Manhattan, just off the west side highway. They go high into the air. The actual World Trade Center site and the tower is actually back here a bit. But of course, dominating the news this week as it should be will be the 25th anniversary of 9-11.

1:06It will be full of size, it will be manipulated. But here on this show, and at least on our social media platforms and everything I do, I'm going to try to bring light to contrast to heating. And today, there was some big news, some expected news, that Mayor Mom Donnie, New York City Mayor, revealed that thousands of documents revealed that the government and leadership was not entirely truthful with the public and first responders about the toxins, about the danger, about the risks in the air right here around 9-11. I was one of those first responders. I'm not surprised by this news. I'm still outraged by the news. But more importantly, I am consistently disappointed by the lack of action. John Stuart was there, lots of first responders were there, we've had to advocate for 25 years, for health benefits, for folks like me, and firefighters, and national guardsmen, and even kids who went to Stavis in high school. But even now, 25 years later, we're hearing a lot of outrage, we're hearing a lot of sadness, we're hearing a lot of pontificating and blow-beating, and very few solutions.

2:13Republicans, Democrats, will all be outraged this week, about why we're not doing more, about why we're not taking care of people, about why we're truly forgetting, only should be never forgetting. But here's what we should be asking, what's your plan of action? Because there was a true failure of imagination on 9-11, and I think there's been a failure of imagination in so many ways since then. And now there's a failure of imagination, the failure of action to take care of the now hundreds of thousands of many women who've been exposed since 9-11, not just firefighters, but kids who went to high school, people who were working, and just people who were living. The risks are now known, and the responsibility should fall on Republicans and Democrats. Giuliani, Adams, Bloomberg, Mamdani wouldn't name them, but I will, because they're all responsible. If anybody lied, truly lied, and that can be proven, they should be in jail.

3:13Because they lied while our friends died, and we still need way overdoing, a bipartisan investigation into who lied about what and when, and they should be held accountable. They lied, and our friends died, and more will die, more dying by the day, and more will die this week. One day it might be 9-11 toxins that take my life. But until that day comes, I won't stop fighting, I won't stop advocating, I won't stop asking us to remember that in that most horrible time, we saw the most beautiful demonstration of true patriotism in this country I've ever seen. I saw devastation and carnage, but I saw heroism and courage, and that's what I will always remember about that time, and what I'll always teach about that time, and I encourage you to do the same. So, I will be coming back with new episodes in the days to come. I'm going to give you a special replay now, one of our best, because I've been deep in getting the kids back to school, and getting ready for the 9-11 commemoration, and the work we're doing around that.

4:18School starts here on Thursday, and 9-11 is on Friday. But I ask you to hold them accountable, demand more. Don't just let them say they never forget. Have them say what they will do now, and one more thing. This controversy around whether Mondani should be there, whether Trump should be there, I got a simple solution. None of them should be there. All the politicians should stay the fuck away. I think they should have done nothing in the beginning, because it's become way overly politicized. Whether Trump's going to be there, whether he's not going to be there, whether Mondani's going to be there, whether he's not going to be there. Who wants him there? Who doesn't? Feel out more simple, if they just all stay to where? Do a ceremony at the city hall, do a ceremony at the White House, and let this be about the survivors, about the folks who remain, and about the heroes. That's what 9-11 is supposed to be about, a teaching tool to the next generation, about what courage and sacrifice truly looks like. To remember that when times are dark to look for the helpers, we saw them on that day. We've seen them in days since, and we'll need them in days to come.

5:19So, from here in Lower Manhattan, and the shadow of these amazing beams of light that I think are a wonderful demonstration and the best memorial that I've ever seen anywhere in the world for 9-11, we will remember, we will stay vigilant, we will hold them accountable, we will drive on, and we will continue to fight for our 9-11 first responders, and do what they did, and look out for others. So, from down here in Lower Manhattan, stay vigilant, my friends, now, more than ever, and never forget. Ladies and gentlemen, independent Americans around the country, around the world, and especially in Afghanistan, and forward deployed in other countries. And I think that the other places that folks may not be paying attention to right now, the guest for this episode is someone that was literally in my top 5 when I conceived of this show.

6:29He is a man I admire tremendously, I think is a conscience for our country, and in my limited interactions, a very good and cool human being. I've been lucky to spend some time with, and I'm humbled to have on this program, I am very proud to welcome the great and powerful Admiral Mike Mullin to independent Americans. Welcome, sir. Great and powerful. Forever great, Paul. It's really good to be with you, I'm not sure I'd use those descriptors, but it's good to see you again. So, I wanted to, before we get into a lot, that I'm really thankful to have your perspective on, I was trying to think about the first time I actually met you in person. It's been maybe a decade and a half now, and it may have been on a stage with Lady Gaga. There was an event in New York City where I was asked an IVA, was asked to bring like 100 veterans to stand on stage with Admiral Mike Mullin and Lady Gaga.

7:31That sound like it might have been the first time. I think you may have most of that right. That actually was at the Robin Hood Gala. It was right after the Bin Laden raid, and I had a few minutes on the stage with Tom Broca to talk about raising, not, not, but talk about looking at veterans and supporting the community. And it was, I don't know, 4500 people, I mean, some big number and they raised a ridiculous amount of money, 47 million as I remember. 11 of which was eventually was raised to focus on veterans needs. And I had, and I spoke with Broca about the veterans needs that I was seeing. And I was still on active duty. So technically I couldn't really talk about raising money, but talking about, you know, the needs very specifically.

8:32And then, so this is 2000 and what, 2011, I think. And then for the entertainment later on was Lady Gaga, who came in as I recall in this big egg, and moved very slowly through this cavernous auditorium or convention center. It was out of javits in New York and, and then went to, to then beyond stage, I didn't go with her to be on stage. So you may have conflated Lady Gaga, my presence, and yourself, and those 100 vets all in one place. That's in a large sense we were all in one place, but by and large, I was non stage with her. That, that, that sounds right. I trust your memory more than mine. I remember it being being closed together. Maybe you were off stage or near the stage. I remember the egg. She was carried through the javits center, like Cleopatra and an egg. Exactly.

9:32And, and I've done a lot of veterans events, but that was not a hard ticket to get folks to show up for. But I think we may have also been introduced through my dear friend and mentor, Les Gell, who I miss, I miss dearly, and I know you had a very close relationship with as well. And I especially miss him in times like these. But, but I think he put it in some trouble. I, in fact, as I was thinking about engaging with you on this, I was thinking about Les today, because he was also, he's a mentor to many of us. And, you know, a dedicated public servant for decades who had some really remarkable ways to think about really difficult problems. And I know that he helped you a great deal in your instantiation at the head of IAVA, which I thought was a remarkable achievement on your part. And obviously it's still going strong from all I can see these many years later. But yeah, Les was one of the very special people.

10:36Yeah, he was kind of the godfather of IAVA for a long time helping us connect beyond the military community. And I think he saw our potential as a generation, you know, long before we did. And his spirit lives on in so many of us. And you know that if you go to Les's house, you probably went to his library in the back with Judy and the cats. This episode of Independent Americans is sponsored by CalShi. We make predictions every single day. We talk about it on the show politics, pop culture, the economy, the biggest stories making headlines all across America and around the world. CalShi, America's number one prediction market platform lets you trade those predictions in a live market. If you haven't checked it out now is the time, especially around politics and the elections. We'll trump by at least part of Greenland. If you think he'll do that before 2027 and you wage your $100, it'll pay out $2,019 and $24.

11:43If you think it's going to be before January 20, of 2029, it's 17%. You can also pick whether or not you think the Republicans or the Democrats are going to win Congress. You can pick who you think the Democratic nominee will be, who the Republican nominee. It would be great to see if there's an independent nominee. There's a lot that you can wage your on, but on CalShi you're trading its peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. It's fun. And if you listen to this show, you can stay ahead of the curve. So download the CalShi app and use the code independent and get up to $500 in bonus credits when you trade 25, which is pretty good. CalShi, KALSHI, CalShi, trade on anything. 18 and older, restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. CalShi products are not available in all jurisdictions, but the prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calShi.com backslash regulatory independent Americans.

12:50Now is the time. Check out CalShi. And I would ask of all of our guests, where are you? Because you're not, you know, we're not on CNN. You're somewhere that has a very interesting background. And it's been a rough year, year and a half, the pandemic, so many other things I ask all our guests, where are you? And how are you? I'm at home where I've been for the past 18 months, you know, in my office in my house. And this has got to be probably the about the one million zoom call I've been on. I mean, zoom is great. It's also incredibly efficient just in terms of its ability to do back to back to back to back zoom calls. And pretty much I've been here the whole time. We're well. We're, you know, we're both fully vaccinated. And we've been fortunate. We haven't traveled much at all. In fact, I was talking with someone yesterday. I live in Annapolis, Maryland. It's a 35, 40 minute ride to DC. I think in the last 18 months, I've been to DC four or five times in total.

13:58It just speaks to the, I think the world that we're living in. And, and, you know, I don't have to tell you where this audience, what a challenge COVID has been. But we're also of age, my wife and myself. So we're trying to be very, very cautious about exposure. And we've also got five grandkids soon going to have number six. And we're, you know, concerned about making sure we can continue to see them. And obviously, you know, they have a certain vulnerability in this environment as well. So we'd like to protect them as much as we can. So one of the upsides of COVID is not having to go to, at least for me, not having to go DC is often. Yeah. You, you, you've had your share of fun times in DC over the last, you know, few decades. Can I ask you for most folks are listening, but some folks are watching. I see so many interesting things behind you. Can you tell us what's over your right shoulder that has an eagle head and what looks like some, some metals around the neck. Yeah, there's just a couple of metals there. Actually, one of them is a distinguished graduate from the Naval Academy.

15:03And which when I was very young, nobody would have predicted that. And the other is actually a metal I received out in Los Angeles, which is, which is where I'm originally from, from an outfit called the Jonathan Club. And what, what I like about that metal more than anything else, it's much less that they chose me to give, give me that award. But some of the people that I idolize when I was young, Johnny Wooden being one, were, were also previously recipient recipients of that award and designation. So it's a little bit of home. It's a beach, it's a beach club I used to look at as a kid and say, there's no, I wonder who goes to that beach club because I know I could never getting. So that's what that's there. Well, you're, it's, it's a good insight into your life journey, which has been an inspiration to me and, and so many others. You've been, I think really a conscience for our country through some of the hardest times.

16:06We just recognize the 20th anniversary of 9-11. Barely. Your entire existence has been so shaped by, by the last 20 years, 20 years after 9-11, sir. Where are we as a nation? If you could kind of lay out the positioning of our country 20 years after 9-11. And what do you feel are the most important lessons that we have learned or should have learned in the last 20 years since 9-11? Well, I, you know, my reaction to what have we learned or what's happened in the last 20 years. Where is divided as I've ever seen it over the, over the course of my life? And I'm a Vietnam kid. I mean, that was the first war I was involved in. To say I fought in it is a true statement, but I was on a destroyer off the gun line there for months, supporting Marines and soldiers ashore up by the DMZ. And that was a very difficult time for our country, for our military in, in, in total.

17:08And, and, you know, I wore the scars, I wear the scars of that war as someone that went through, you know, that generation. And it greatly affected me and how I saw my job, you know, when I was in the chairman's job and now we're back at war. So my life in the military sort of started with war and ended with war, sad to say. And, and in the latter half in these last 20 years, I've just seen us divide in a way that I, I would not have thought possible. Right, frankly, we were talking about COVID so much of COVID now is politicized and literally Americans are dying because of the politics, the divisive politics associated that are out there writ large. And in fact, that are, you know, embedded in the COVID response as, as was the case, you know, throughout the, throughout the pandemic quite frankly in, in my view. I mean, it's just, it's, it's stunning to me that we could, we've lost 650 more than 650,000 Americans in this.

18:16For years, I watched this divide get created and, and I thought was when people would say, and I talk about the divide and people would say, what, what's going to happen? What are you going to do about it? And I would say, you know, we're, we're sadly we're crisis driven. I think that there will be some crisis which occurs after which or as a result of, you know, will all come together, choose a leader that say, that says, you know, we're done with this and we're moving. And you would have thought 650,000 dead Americans would be that crisis. And we're not there. I mean, so, so that's the biggest worry. 10 years ago, I was asked what the number one threat to the country was and what has become sort of a famous response. And I meant it at the time back then it was our debt. And to remind back then it was $10 trillion because I just couldn't see back in 2010 or 2011, how we were going to get out of that.

19:19And it's now, you know, you do the numbers, but it's now the debt is now at 28 or 29 or 30 trillion. I had no idea how your generation and your kids are going to pay for, for the future. I mean, because we just keep laying it on so much so that now there are many, even there are conservative economists that are coming around to say, well, as long as the interest rates remain low, you know, we can continue to do this. I just don't sign up to that. That said, when I get asked that question now about what's the number one threat, it's us. It really is us. It's ourselves. And we need leaders to pull us together and pull us out of this. And I think it's going to be a long call to do that. If this crisis didn't do it and it certainly hasn't, in fact, I would argue the pandemic is added to that. So I think that that's, that's what I worry about the most. Specifically, just sort of quickly from, from, you know, 9-11 and you and I and all of us went through this a pretty tough weekend.

20:28For me, I was in the building when the plane got hit. It actually flew in. I was out of my office down in the CNOs office of 50, 75 feet away from my office. But my two up on the fourth after the Pentagon, my two EAs looked out the window. And saw a 757 flying under their feet. And from that moment, I knew the world had changed forever without recounting, you know, all the, all of what went all of what happened that day and that those that we lost, which rightfully so, we remembered this weekend. And we should never forget those losses. But I knew right then the world changed forever. And I thought we had it right initially honest. I thought going to Afghanistan, we had to go to Afghanistan. We had, we had to go after Ben Laden and Al-Qaeda. And then where we got Iran from my perspective was going into Iraq and it became a, it became an incredible resource. Some it became a complete distraction, which took us away from Afghanistan. And I think that set the stage for for long years of returning to Afghanistan, particularly under the Obama administration, which then got us to this position.

21:44The wars were too long. We stayed too long. And we got distracted. We didn't understand enough about the cultures and the history of those of those countries and of those regions. And I hope that we learned those lessons very specifically because those cultures and that history is is remarkable. There's a book. In fact, ironically, I'm teaching, I'm teaching at an apple set the Naval Academy. And I'm teaching seniors specifically. And, and this week, literally tomorrow, one of the readings is from Tom Friedman's book from Beirut to Jerusalem. And I can remember after we went into Iraq, maybe three weeks, four weeks later, something like that. If I came home one night and dad had picked up this book, my wife from Beirut to Jerusalem, which was one of Friedman's signature books. And, and we were just talking before dinner and she, she hands me this book and she, she looks at me and she goes, has anybody read this book?

22:52Does anybody have any idea what we're getting into here? And, you know, that was a very instructive moment for me. It's why I'm having the kids at the Naval Academy read this tomorrow in my leadership class because we don't do history well. And we're Americans and we think we're always a good guy. And we always can win. And, and we don't need what happened, you know, the last time to inform us because it's our turn, our generation, you know, and we'll figure it out. And so one of the lessons for me for your generation and for your kids generation is when the time comes, please dust off the old lessons, learn on whatever the issues are because they are valuable lessons and you don't and you shouldn't have to re-learn them all over again as too often, too often we do. And then the other lesson, and I think Paul, you and I go back quite a way on this, the extraordinary, extraordinary generation of young men. And I think the generation of young men and women who serve in these wars, Afghanistan and Iraq and your leadership at IAVA is a great example of that. But actually when people talk about the future, I still talk about the hope that gets generated tied to these young men and women that I saw that I saw died that I saw get wounded that I saw sacrifice everything for our country and their cohorts.

24:16So I and a bunch of them are coming into Congress and you've seen that as well. I think that'll be that is good and will continue to grow hopefully for our country. So that does give me hope in terms of the future of our country. I mean, those are some of the thoughts, I mean, you know, we could go on forever just on 9-11 and what happened and what's happened in the last 20 years. Your perspective is so unique and so vast around all of this. And there's a point. The first of all, I think I read Friedman's book when I was in a tent in Kuwait. It was like, I'm I was like my crash course. I'm going to read this as fast as I can before he headed to Iraq. This episode of independent Americans is sponsored by cozy earth. If you haven't heard about them, they're awesome, especially in the summer. You guys know I'm out with my boys. I'm at baseball. I'm at pools and beaches and just getting dirty and all over the place. And I need really good towels and they've got awesome pool towels that you can use for the beach for the pool. Even if you're not a pool person, they have really good bath towels that are amazing. They kind of feel like those really luxury towels you get when you come from a spa or a fancy hotel.

25:27Superplush, absorbent, they suck up everything. My kids love them and it's cool because cozy earth stands behind everything they make with a 10 year warranty. They're oversized ultraplush completely built for your best summer day. So head to cozy earth.com. Use the code Americans for an exclusive 20% off. That's code Americans for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see post purchase survey, mention that you heard about cozy earth right here on independent Americans. Check out our friends at cozy earth. And so that's a reference point for me as well. But you mentioned a time of difficulty this last week and it's been compounded by the events in Afghanistan that I think have been frankly a debacle over the last couple of weeks. And it's really created a level of stress in the veterans community and a level of sadness and just kind of breakage that I've never really seen before. And I think a lot of people in the community are hurt. They feel that the Afghans have been betrayed. They feel like our promise to the Afghans has been betrayed.

26:36And there's a question I want to ask you specifically if I can. You're hearing a lot of the non flag rates ask who will be held accountable. 20 years later, there have been so many mistakes. You know, not a flag grade has been, you know, at least publicly really held accountable. Frankly, most of it's not directed at you, but often at others and sometimes at you. What do you say about about 20 years we've learned lessons, but have we held anyone accountable for failure 20 years later and specifically on Afghanistan. And will we specifically on the debacle of execution over the last few weeks. So I was interviewed on this. I think on this week, Mark, a reddit interview, a few weeks ago on this. And part of my response was I'm responsible for, you know, a significant part of this. I mean, I was the senior military officer in the United States of America. I advised two presidents specifically advised president Obama, you know, on the surge, if you will, for Afghanistan.

27:43And my recommendation, and it was the best thinking I had at the time that this was the right step to take. But still very, very complex situation. Some of that's obviously learning from Iraq, which were in the counter uncertainty mode that that work there in 0708 timeframe to turn it around. And it seems like that was the right answer in Afghanistan. What I underestimated was degree of difficulty in Afghanistan. The history. You fly around there. I mean, literally from one village to another, which is, you know, next to each other, they've never even seen each other. I mean, it's a unique place in the world. And I was, you know, I was also instructed by, you know, the book, the graveyard of empires, except there is sort of an American view of that as well. That was them. That's not us. That gets back to the hubris sometimes that we had. That in fact, let us to that. And so it's hard to know that. I mean, I, as you've seen, I publicly spoke out and took responsibility.

28:53And there's not been many others that have done that, which is, you know, which is bothersome. Again, back to these midshipmen that I'm teaching, I do teach them about accountability and responsibility about owning up to your mistakes and your failures. And we all do and have. And I've had them in my career. So I'm driven by that. I have been surprised. No one else has done that. And actually that doing that received a, you know, a lot of comments back to me in support of what I've said, because it's so unusual for a leader to do that. So I don't know, you know, I think I don't know for Afghanistan overall. I don't know that anybody's going to be specifically held to account per se. We get held to account like it or not in our reputation and our legacy in what gets said and done and written about us over many, many years and decades as the case might be.

29:55But specifically, I don't expect you're going to see anybody per se. And then fast forward to the end. And I agree that it was a debacle. I also signed up. First of all, it was time to go. Secondly, I mean, you know, I mean, it just to pick the 31st of August makes no sense. I've just you pick the Taliban at the height of their military capability any given year. Maybe it's not August 31st, but it's pretty close in the dead of summer. Why we didn't pick a later date is beyond me. The debt of winter doesn't mean it wouldn't have been messy, but it could have been much better controlled. And, and, and yes, you know, once we had everything sort of in place. The debacle or the disaster, you know, when you get 124,000 people out, it's a significant accomplishment. But if you if you move it particularly focused on those 13 young ones who died. And then if you move it to sort of a larger, how did we get here?

31:05We could have sequenced this thing a whole lot better. Just I mean, it's just and it's easy for me. You know, I'm now nothing from an armchair quarterback. But at the same time, it just didn't make a lot of sense. And to to execute it the way it was executed per se. The size of the State Department footprint made made no sense to me. I mean, it was 3500 to 4000 people, you know, towards the end. I mean, a couple months before what I call cobble Sunday. It was huge, huge footprint there. And I like many others. I mean, literally, even as we speak, I'm still working to try to get some Afghan families, you know, out of, you know, out of Afghanistan. Sorry about that son. Can we can we drill down on that first second serving because there's kind of a gaslighting or a shifting that's happening where the White House. And I think the president and Jake Sullivan, another specifically keep talking about the numerator and not the denominator. This is how many we got out. But not talking about how many we left behind.

32:09Yeah, not not a not a very high degree of candor from Biden who's usually a humble guy who says I made mistakes. They say no mistakes. This is how it was going to go anyway. And then I think even in this moment to hear. Jake Sullivan said, you know, I'm trying to get people out to to hear you as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, you know, retired say I'm trying to get people out. I mean, this digital Dunkirk is inspiring, but it's happening because our government failed. And there's an outrage there that I think is asking who will have the honor or the accountability to hold someone accountable for that failure. I think I think the question is a great question and it needs to continue to be asked because I think back to the accountability piece. I think someone should be and whether they will be is an open question. I think for us to as in all really bad circumstances in order for us to heal and move forward, you need that accountability. So someone should specifically and in my case, and I've been working in families now for three and a half weeks or four weeks kind of thing.

33:15And I sensed as I did maybe three or four days before the 31st of August, the window was closing. As you know now, there are many up in math or that window is closing. It's just my sense in my dealings. We're running out of time here. And honestly, one of the things back to sort of every American outfall, the number I hear is 100. Is that 100 that wants to get out or that's 100 Americans that are left there? I mean, to say that there would be 100 Americans that wanted to stay there wouldn't surprise me at all. But the tens of thousands, you know, the additional you pick the number 100,000 that help us that want to get out. That's our, I think that is our responsibility. I don't know yet how we're going to do it. And I got a call yesterday the day before from someone who actually is pretty close to this administration who asked me a question. He said, do you know who the two presidents are that did this better anybody else?

34:18I said, no, I should, but I don't. He goes Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. Because at the end of the Vietnam war, they opened up the floodgates and brought in a million Vietnamese to our country. And my editorial comment on that on top of that is look what great citizens they have become. Look what part, what a significant part of the fabric of America they have become. So the risk is minimalist is a risk there. Absolutely. But we need to do that. And that's what we haven't done. My own view is we're care so we're too carefully screening them. And that's really through the process, which I think is being run by State Department. It's not just them because DHS is involved in this as well. And we've been too carefully screening them, you know, from the get go with the exception. I think of when H. Kaya opened up initially right as the Taliban came into town because they opened up the gates and just about anybody that wanted to get in to H. Kaya and leave the country got in.

35:24After that, it's been tough screening that is really slowed and jammed the process. So it's encouraging to hear your candor because it's in such direct contrast to what we see coming out of the Pentagon, the State Department, the White House, some in the Senate. Senator Tim Cain says, you know, it's great that America is not at war for the first time in 20 years. While people continue to get combat pay and imminent danger pay, there's a contrast that seems stunning to me to kind of paint a very different narrative. So we're going to, you know, I don't know what happened here. Like either, in my view, either Jake Sullivan gave the president bad information or the president didn't listen to it. I don't know if there's a middle ground in between, but it seems like that's the intersection of power and the chain of command, right? And someone there should be held accountable because if they missed this by this much on the 20th anniversary of 11, 9, 11, what else are they going to miss? Well, I think that's the third question.

36:24Well, I think that's a fair question. I mean, it's very clear that, and maybe it goes back to the environment where we're sort of where we started. We're living in a hyper, hyper political world. And so first out of the gate in solving this was 22 elections, where we at risk. And so how much of a hold and who had a hold on this process as it affected that when, you know, 75% of Americans want to get out of Afghanistan. And you've heard that over and over again, per se. One of the things I learned in the Obama administration, I mean, this is what I came to believe is, as politics got more and more partisan, which it did over, you know, decades now, the inability to let go of the political out, political factors, political outcomes and do what was substantively right, which I would argue in most cases would work well for you politically. It just, it became more and more challenging. So hanging on to this, you know, through the politics of it, I also suspect had a lot to do with, you know, how we ended up.

37:34I'm, I'm, you know, I'm talking to friends right now that think the political actually for the Democrats that the 22 elections are lost as a result of this. Now, I don't know, there's a lot of time between now and. But there's always a question of, of competence, right? You're responsible for the decision, but also the execution of absolutely. And then candid and then candid conversations with the American people about, you know, it's, it's almost like watching two screens. You have the White House channel and then you have the reality channel. And it feels for me, it feels like listening to George Bush in 2003 and 2004 when, when there was a, you know, White House story and a reality story. But as we pick all the supports are, and it can feel for folks like the national security world has our head spinning. And I try to keep our focus on that, asking people to stay vigilant about it. As we have this conversation, we're finding out how close did our country come to disaster in January. You know, you've been in that chair, everyone's talking about, you know, what General Millie did, what General Millie did didn't do. I don't know, I don't know, forever know.

38:35But can you maybe from your perspective for the, for the layman, how close did we come to something much worse? So I guess it's a real question that I don't think people have heard from someone in your position who knows you've been that guy talking to the president. How close did we come to something much, much worse during that time period that we need to learn from? So much closer than I ever thought we would. How close actually, it's hard for me to know that the way the one of the ways as difficult as those four years were on so many institutions. One of the ways I talk about it, Paul, is that the institutions held, you know, the courts and the rule of law held in that situation and continue to hold as you look at the prosecutions and the cases against all those so many of them, you know, hundreds who were on the capital that day. So it's, I mean, I don't know if I can say any better than that. It was a lot closer than I ever thought, but at the same time, you know, I'm not sure it, I don't think it was ever imminent per se.

39:44And actually it's one of those things that had it happen. I've tried to imagine, well, what does that mean? What would we do? How would it be implemented? All those kinds of things, all of which would have had to have been put in place as well. It was exceptionally dangerous, tragic loss. I think in particular of the, you know, the, I think it's six policemen that lost their lives six or seven or one way or another, you know, killed themselves or died kind of thing, you know, the incredible sacrifice there. Video will never not be in my head of, you know, going into the cap. I mean, taking on the very institution you claim you support, if you will, the proclamation of killing the vice president, you know, the speaker, the house, et cetera, the minor, all of those kinds of things. It's just things that I couldn't have imagined, ever happened or come close to being true. And it's a warning shot. It's a huge warning shot about where we are and the need quite frankly to clean it up from a political standpoint and bring the country back together.

40:58We want to get any further apart than we are. And that hopefully, hopefully, you know, that was a, that was this episode of independent Americans is sponsored by cozy earth. If you haven't heard about them, they're awesome, especially in the summer. I know I'm out with my boys, I'm at baseball, I'm at pools and beaches and just getting dirty and all over the place. And I need really good towels and they've got awesome pool towels that you can use for the beach for the pool. Even if you're not a pool person, they have really good bath towels that are amazing. They kind of feel like those really luxury towels you get when you come from a spa or a fancy hotel, superplush, absorbent, they suck up everything. My kids love them. And it's cool because cozy earth stands behind everything they make with a 10 year warranty. They're oversized ultraplush completely built for your best summer day. So head to cozy earth.com, use the code Americans for an exclusive 20% off. That's code Americans for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see post purchase survey, mention that you heard about cozy earth right here on independent Americans. Check out our friends at cozy earth.

42:04The waypoint if you will that you know that we won't get any further apart and that will somehow come together, although I don't know how that will be. So we hope for that and we root for that and we fight for that. But as we do all that, the vaccine mandates are coming down. They're going to drive a wedge and the one in particular that I don't think got enough attention. And I in my view took too long was a mandate for the military to get the vaccine. Which is still maybe 30% of the military is in vaccinate, which to me seems like a force protection issue. I didn't have the option of not wearing my helmet when I went on patrol, right when I worked for you from a very far distance. For folks to not have the option now did the president is this a national security failure for the president and the sect of Chairman George to not have vaccinated our forces sooner. I don't I don't think it's a necessary failure for I think what's happened is they just put it in place over time. I mean, you saw the you saw the secretary get what I what I would call warning shots early. This is going to happen. They're now in effect executing it and and there's a thing. I mean, you, you would iron a military. They're okay.

43:17What are you going to do with the ones who don't sign up, you know, and and won't do it, et cetera. And you know, my answer to that is they're probably going to get processed, you know, somehow I'm not. When they become an option, sir, you when you're the most out of the military, I didn't have an option. Oh, no, no, I think things right. I think it's a question of timing. I think he did. I could have done it on day one. This is what they chose to do, you know, for whatever reason. And it is to some degree in conjunction with, you know, the rest of the mandates. That are coming. It's also back to, you know, where does this go? I someone said the other day and I thought, hey, you were going to get to the point where you're the vaccinated or you have code, you know, basically, which is a pretty sad state from my perspective. Yeah. And maybe, you know, what have been a dream for Osama bin Laden to see. Well, somebody said to see this many Americans die to see insurrection is taking the capital. They see our allies mistrusting us to see, you know, people who stood with us abandoned. I mean, in many ways, 20 years later, a lot of this has our enemies celebrating it. Let me ask you this, sir, as we think about the division, which I think you rightfully identify as a key threat.

44:28And domestic extremism is a key, if not the number one national security threat. We try to find solutions to this division, right? And this show is called independent Americans. A lot of folks are unaffiliated. They're politically independent. They're rejecting both parties. It was reported that you would have been Mike Bloomberg selection for vice president, if he ran as an independent. Would you ever go for office again? And if you would, would you align with either of these parties? Where is the future for folks like us? We look to someone like you that frankly, if you stood up and said I'm starting the independent movement that rejects the parties and puts country first, we end up with Howard Schultz or someone else, but there are a lot of folks like you that have been on the sidelines, a political that we want to pull in. So is there a future that that you can lead or be a part of that is politically independent and necessary in this urgent time? I don't think so. That's me. Part of it for me in going through that process with Bloomberg was finding out it's a blinding flash in the obvious, but if you haven't been in it, it's much less about doing the job than it is going through the gauntlet to get to it, which is extreme.

45:43And that's not all bad. I mean, this is not an insignificant job. I mean, that's one piece. Secondly, the parties have locked this up into a two party system over decades and decades and decades. So the idea that a third party could come in, which has happened before and it's seemingly each time it does, you know, it undoes one candidate with respect to the future. And Bush 41 would be a great example with a Tros Perot, but others, it's the same kind of thing. And the parties are so powerful, so structured. And if you are not of them, you know, they will not not literally, but they will kill you, per se, no matter who you are, because you threaten their very existence. Which is so the answer I'm giving you is it's pretty discouraging. I think it has to come sadly from within that group that there have been, you know, I was talked to not too long after I retired, actually before the Bloomberg thing talked about being involved in another group that was looking at a third party, it just, you know, it's like the party sense it's out there and they just move in every direction to kill it.

46:54And it's not the same kind of competition. It would just have to be such a groundswell. I mean, I would, I would love to do it in terms of the independence in terms of the skill set in terms of the, you know, helping the country that kind of thing. I don't see a path one, two is and I talk about this with others. It's not us. You know, somebody with my background, when I think about or what I've seen in the political world, that's not me. You know, I mean, that's, it's, it's, it would cause me, I believe, to become someone that I never want to become because of the requirements of the political world. But now that's, I'm trying not to cop out here. It's just what I've learned and seen. You know, so I wouldn't slam the door on it. I just don't know where the door is. Well, I think you and I've had informal conversations about this in the past. I think it has to start with a couple of key leaders and a strategy.

47:59Right. There needs to be somebody who pulls a strategy off the shelf with the right goals, the right resources, the right leaders. And if you and Mike Bloomberg and Colin Powell and pick ten, ten other, you know, transformative figures that have the resources and power said, okay, we're putting country first right now and trying to disrupt this for the sake of our government. I think, you know, George Washington warned us against the parties. Yeah. And now we're seeing it come full together. So I'm going to root for, I wish there are plenty of times in the last couple of decades where I wish you were president or I wish someone like you were president because the person who doesn't want it is the person we often need, especially in these times. But you flatter me, Paul. I believe me. I understand what you're saying. I certainly, I certainly wish there was a cadre of leadership taking the country to a, you know, different place. And I'm just talking about right now. I'm talking about over over a long period of time. Well, you're, you're a true keeper of the American flame.

49:00And I promised you I'd let you go. If you have a couple minutes afterward to stick around for rapid fire for our members. I love to get your thoughts on those. But maybe, maybe, maybe a final request if you say a lot of folks are going through hard times. Yeah. They feel hopeless. They feel frustrated. You have been a North star for many of us that know to listen for your words and look for your words. But for the folks who, who maybe haven't heard from you. What's your message to them? You're not president, but you're one of the, in my view, one of the most important leaders of our time. What is your message for those folks who are, who are grinding through it right now and maybe really struggling? So one of the things I learned as a sailor, you know, about ground combat was in these formations we call brigade. But really right down to the platoon level is, is usually at that level we knew who was going to struggle when they left, when they got home, etc. And one of the things I've encouraged, mostly young, certainly younger than me, young people to do is, is to stay in touch with your buddies from the fight.

50:10Really key. And we have tendency to come home and, and the structure that's there, the camaraderie that's there, the things that, that we love, whether we thought we loved them or not. And all of a sudden they're gone and you're by yourself and you, and you don't have any support and you can't have any conversations with anybody that really understands what you went through. I mean that piece of it, so I, I have encouraged for years individuals who are struggling like this, but others who, who know that others will struggle, or that they're in touch with each other often enough to pick them up, to remind them who they are, that they have a future. You know that they did good things that, that we need you for the, those kinds of things. So reaching out to them, I think, and to each other, with that common bond and camaraderie to remember it by, I think is really key. And it's one of the things that, back to IV, it's one of the things that IVA does, et cetera. But you know better than I, I mean, we're at an all time high for suicides in the country, as well as in the military, as well as in the veteran space.

51:16We need to, we need to stay in touch to intervene ahead of time before somebody takes that tragic step, if you will. So that's one of the things that, that's one of the ways that I think about, you know what to do in this very painful time. And quite frankly, this last weekend was very painful for me for lots of reasons. I can still remember the voicemail I got from my younger son, as he was in tears, leaving a voicemail for me saying, you better pick up on this line, because he didn't know whether I was dead or alive based on what happened at Pentagon. So I, and I certainly don't equate that to losing anybody and the tragedy that families went through that day in that regard. But this, you know, the recent times, and I think you have it right, this sort of, this combination of the Afghanistan withdrawal and 9-11 at the 20th years has been a really, really difficult time for many people.

52:16And others should recognize that and not just assume it was another weekend or another couple weeks and make sure they're checking on their buddies. Your, your humility, your patriotism, your candor, the way you've opened up is, is, is a role, is, is an example of what a role model should be in this country. We say all the time, like Mr. Rogers used to say, look for the helpers. You've been a helper for a long time. And I know your grandfather now, I know you're retired, but the country is going to need you now more than ever. And I'm grateful that you've spent this time with us. And for all that you've done, much of which we will never know about. On behalf of all of us, sir, thank you for all that you've done for us. And thank you for joining me. It's been, it's been a humbling honor to have you here with me on, on the show. Thanks Paul. It's been really good to be with you. Stay vigilance, sir. Yeah.

53:32Right on dreams, look those without a clue. And when you wait, it's time to grow. Powered by righteous media.