#257 Finding Your Perfect Catholic Wife w/Anna Sutton – Cup o’Joe LIVE

Welcome back to Santa's Popory. I'm Joe Heschmar here to have a cup of Joe with my friend Anna Sutton. Anna, welcome.

Thank you. It's so exciting to be here.

And of course, as always, Metal Mike. Mike, welcome.

Good morning.

I have to make in a immediate disclaimer, despite the name, Cup of Joe, which is centered around having a coffee and a conversation.

Today, I'm fighting off a cold. I thought I'd infect Anna in person, and I'm drinking tea instead of coffee, which I know is

kind of cheating, but this is as tea goes an excellent one. It is a Yukon or no, what is it called? Something gold, not Yukon gold. That's potatoes.

Your shirt gold.

It's I literally just went online like a week ago and looked up best tea and found some people raving about how good this tea was and thought, yeah, trust him. It's a popular British tea, and it is excellent.

And you, unfortunately, I know I'm drinking water. So I drink coffee this morning, and then I also drink one of the new liquid IV energy drinks.

I love liquid IV, and they have an energy version now. And then I was like, oh, I don't know if I should do more caffeine.

I find the title liquid IV very confusing. Is there another thing you do intravenously that isn't liquid?

I don't know. Maybe a drug, but they're all liquid.

I mean, if it's in solid form, it would be very hard to be really hard to inject blood.

So casual advice about intravenous drug use unintentionally.

All right. So yes, Mike is slaying with that shirt. Speaking of shirts, this shirt is also a gift from Anna Sutton that I received this morning, which worked out well because I spilled tea on the shirt I was wearing earlier.

So this worked out perfectly.

Happy birthday. Thank you very much. It is my belated birthday. And I am here talking about the perfect wife with a woman named Anna, who is not my wife.

Yes, different Anna. Yes, clear.

My wife actually suggested this show. And you said you wanted to do a show on how men can find the perfect Catholic wife.

And I have no idea what you're about to tell us. So Anna, how do you find the perfect Catholic wife?

Well, it's an unfortunately very obvious answer. Well, it's actually a very nuanced answer. My first reaction would be

get really rich, make a ton of money and be super ripped. No, be the perfect Catholic husband, but there's a lot more nuance to it than that.

I think what I see a lot online today is men who are really concerned about the wrong things in attracting women.

Like they are super obsessed with being super ripped. And like the whole manosphere atmosphere is like, it's like what men look for in women.

And they think that's what women are looking for in men, but they're wrong.

So you're saying like that the super fit physical attractiveness thing is more of like a male projection onto what they would imagine.

Exactly.

This is kind of like the inverse of when women are imagining like the men in their life are overthinking some situation.

And the man's like unaware of the situations even going on.

Exactly.

Like they're assuming the psychology they have on the opposite sex.

It's the phenomena of like you watch a romcom and you realize like no men like this exists.

This is just like men created by women. And the same way a lot of the guys online are like attractive men created by men.

So it's not actually attractive to women. It's I would say a bit revolting actually.

Wow.

Or a lot of women.

That's strong language.

Okay. Now that probably to some people is going to be bad news.

I mean for those of us who are not super ripped maybe greatness.

But for a guy who's like I am putting a lot of time and effort into my appearance.

I'm you know going to the gym all the time and I'm doing all this.

Partly to try to be attractive to a future spouse.

And now you're telling me that you're revolted by that.

Well, it it depends on your personality.

Like if you're a person who genuinely want like you genuinely enjoy working out.

You like your time with the gym. This is like a hobby to you.

Then that's great.

It's good to have a hobby.

It's really, really important to have a personality.

Like that is the most important thing is having a having a personality and having confidence.

So if that's something you really like, that's one thing.

But if it's like you're literally just becoming obsessed with like eating chicken and broccoli to be attractive to women.

You're you're focusing on all the wrong things.

Okay. So those are the wrong.

Can I quickly throw in?

Yes, Mike.

Coming from the top row.

I also want to counterpoint that with zero of the men in rom coms are fat.

True.

But like the thing about real life is it's not a rom com.

Unless you're like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.

Oh my gosh.

For the rest of us.

It's just normal.

So like this is another big point I was going to make.

It's to find a good Catholic spouse.

And I think especially for men since they're so visually driven.

You cannot look at people online.

You have to look at real people in real life and interact with the real people in real life.

Because everything is fake on the internet.

We all know this.

But I feel really bad for young guys who are kind of like growing up in this intense online culture.

Because I think it would actually probably be a very hard adjustment to make to like see women online all the time and all the filters and all the makeup and all the fakeness.

And then try to like adjust that to to real women.

And I also feel bad like if you marry a super hot girl.

And then she like cranks out a bunch of kids.

Cranks out.

Well, if she's Catholic she might crank them out.

Then that might be kind of hard adjustment to make too.

Like you really need to be grounded in reality.

And women need to be grounded in reality as well.

But this talk is about finding a wife and a husband.

Fair enough.

And it's it's a good thing to remember that beauty is fleeting.

Several people in the chat have pointed out that Jack Black is beloved by women and is a great.

It you would be surprised.

I mean women like Jack Black because he seems confident and funny, et cetera.

And there I think there's plenty of men in real life who are like that.

So okay.

We've seen what not to do.

Yes.

We've seen not to focus in either direction simply on the surface level stuff that that goes away with with age.

What should we do?

What should you do?

Well, you should just go home to your wife.

Yes, absolutely.

Congratulations.

Okay.

So the number one thing you need to do is you need to be confident.

You need to.

I think the key to confidence is recognizing your strengths and weaknesses and being okay with them.

You never stop trying to improve your weaknesses, but you look at the stuff you're really good at.

You look at the stuff you're not so good at and you're like, okay.

This is who I am.

If you're like, you know, I'm a mid guy.

I'm kind of a nerd.

That's great.

Be that.

That is okay.

You can definitely attract a woman.

There's no problems there.

You just have to be like this is who I am and recognize that.

That's like a similar woman you're going to attract.

You're not going to be a like mid guy and get a like 12 on a scale of 10 woman.

Well said Contra.

I mean, yes, there's a lid for every pot.

Exactly.

So keep that in mind.

And then.

Just don't be afraid to actually approach women and put yourself out there a little bit.

But if you're really terrified of rejection, you're never going to get anywhere.

And the thing is, if somebody rejects you, it's not really about you.

It's really about them.

I think a lot of people get frozen in this like fear of rejection.

And it's okay if you get rejected.

It's not the end of the world.

Everyone gets rejected.

It doesn't lessen you your value as a person at all, you know?

Still hard.

Yeah.

I mean, I've been rejected.

It happens.

Yeah.

There was that one time and like fourth grade.

This is unknown.

Okay, speaking of, no, not actually speaking of mid and nerdy, but shout out to Matt

Fred and his wife Cameron who are watching in a green.

Oh, great.

That's.

Hi, Matt Fred.

Big fan.

Yes.

Okay.

The other thing, there are things you can do.

Okay.

So here are a few of the key tips.

One, smell good, like, oh my gosh.

You have to smell good, shower, put on deodorant, and if you don't have like a signature

cologne, get one, like, I was thinking about this last night, I was thinking, Andy has

a signature cologne.

Andy's my husband.

I could recognize the smell anywhere.

I also think like my ex-boyfriend from 15 years ago, I've still recognized a smell of.

It's a really, the like, scent memory trigger is really strong.

I mean, I've met some people with strong smells, but it's not always a, well, that's why

I said, smell good.

Ah, yes.

Yes.

Not just distinctive, but distinctive and positive.

Yes.

Good is key.

And then the other thing is, like, if you're picking out clothes and you're doing things

like this, just be like, generally wear, like, pay attention to what colors look good on

you.

Take a picture of yourself, put it in a chat, G2PT, say, like, what color should I wear?

Where are things that fit?

So there are basic things, but honestly, oh yeah, this person said not acts.

Yes.

Not acts.

Another woman, and she is right.

So I mean, I would actually say on the cologne thing, don't try to do it on your own.

Like, this is something where it can be very helpful to have.

A woman you trust in your life who can tell you what smells good and how much.

Oh, yeah.

Because I think the temptation is to weigh over do it.

Or just go to, like, the counter of a Nordstrom.

Eric says, please don't let Anna think she's the first one to be in the studio collaborating

with you.

This is true.

You taught me it was possible.

But you'll notice now we have two mics, which is a key, less awkward than trying to

share the one mic back and forth, like we're, you know, two lead singers in a band.

A boy band, everyone loves a boy band.

Okay.

So smell good.

Take care of yourself.

Now take care of yourself from your perspective is less about getting super ripped and more

about just having a tidy appearance.

Is that?

Yes.

Be a, like, a healthy, balanced human person.

Okay.

I was actually talking to my, I was talking to my niece, who's just, she's been into this

guy forever and they're finally together and very happy for her.

But okay.

My niece is like incredibly beautiful, like she's a 10 out of 10.

She plays a violin.

She's extroverted.

Like she can literally have any man.

The guy she's really into is like kind of goofy, kind of lanky.

Like he's not, and she told me multiple times over the last couple of years, like I feel

kind of silly that I'm like so into this guy, but I cannot get over him.

And it's because he makes her laugh.

She likes being around him.

Like she enjoys his company.

There were tons of other guys into this girl, but she wanted the one that she had fun

with.

Yeah.

So let's talk about that.

Because I think you're onto what I have found to be the key.

Some of the comments that this is literally exactly like boomers telling them people to just

buy a house like they did.

This detached from reality.

I don't think I don't think you're right at all.

This is basic.

I mean, we're both successfully married.

So I think they're just feel like you got married in a different age.

You're, I mean, you didn't, whatever, you've been married longer than we have.

But no, this, I think the kind of blackpilled, oh, it's just impossible now.

I understand completely why it's harder now in a lot of ways.

If you're spending a lot of your time online and you're not getting out and you're not

having in-person interactions, then yeah, a lot of that probably seems hopelessly unrealistic.

But there is an actual world offline.

And it isn't as impossible as people online will sometimes lead you to believe.

So I agree.

Like, I had, I'd never had trouble dating and didn't have trouble vocationally in that

regard at all.

But partly it's because, as you said, if you're just confident and you can make someone

laugh that, and you're not like self-loathing and self-doubting, that can be very helpful.

So I'm going to throw it a thesis.

I've, I've thrown out once or twice before and I want to see your take on it.

I bet it'll be similar.

Okay.

So the, the take is this.

It's much easier to talk about like a male standard of female beauty than the other way

around because some women really have a certain like body type or type of guy or personality

or whatever.

And one of the things that can make it very frustrating as a man is that those can be very varied.

That one woman's ideal man, you know, even as you were saying, like this guy is not what

you would imagine as like the ideal.

There's a lot of that that happens.

So if you're trying to find a common ground, I would say the common ground is this.

And here's where I want you to discreet if you do.

Women are looking for men who are strong, but that strength is very particular.

And we can talk about it in two ways.

Sometimes she's approaching things with a certain set of needs, wants, desire, you know,

like she is worried about physical safety or she's worried about financial insecurity.

She's worried about, you know, something like this and a guy who has his act together

in that area.

So maybe it is the gem bro.

It's a guy who at least, you know, works out and he takes himself very seriously.

He looks like he can hold his own in a fight and so it makes her feel safe.

Or maybe it's a guy who, you know, he's got his act together in terms of job and everything

else.

He's responsible.

And so she knows she's not going to be like just in dire straits in that regard.

Whatever it is, the common thread, even as varied as these guys seem to be, is a sense

of security and safety from whatever danger she perceives.

That's half of it.

The other half would be if a guy seems confident and to have his act together.

That this communicates that you can be safe with this guy because he's, you know, a guy

who seems insecure, a guy who seems like he totally doesn't have his act together, doesn't

seem like someone you can just be safe with.

Like if you get in an Uber and the driver is just sweating bullets and they're like,

I'm really afraid we're going to crash, you're like, well, I actually don't want to be

in this car anymore.

Yeah, maybe you're the greatest driver in the world, but you're communicating a complete

lack of confidence.

And I think one of the self-defeating cycles that people can go into, and I won't say men

can go into, I think it's true in both directions, is approaching it with this lack of confidence.

I mean, like this is not going to work.

And then it becomes sort of self-fulfilling.

Yeah.

I mean, every woman I, almost every single woman I know has to push and encourage her,

her husband in like his career pursuits.

I think men have this deep internal like sense that they're constantly going to fail.

I feel like it's part of the like curse of Adam, like they're working the ground thing.

They're like, this is, they, but it's okay, fake it till you make it.

But I do agree with your statement that women want men strong, but I also think there are

a lot of, like that you feel safe with, but I think there are a lot of people who, like

a lot of women who kind of like the bad boy, who kind of like somebody who's going out

on the limb, who kind of like, like, but isn't that also a kind of strength, even if

it's maybe a dysfunctional kind.

So I would say it's, the strength can just be like you sort of know the direction you're

going, like even if you're really not there and you're really all over the map, if you

are like really confident in what you want and what you're pursuing, that in and of itself

is like, okay, I can get on board with this.

Like I think about, so I got married super young and my husband was also super young.

And all he had was like a plan, you know, and it was enough.

I was like, okay, he's got a plan.

Like we can do this.

And it was like long struggle and a lot of years of school and training and, but I always

knew that he had a direction he was moving in.

And so I think that's really important.

But sorry, I was still thinking back to the, like the person who said that were detached.

And I, it is unfair.

Like I do feel for people who are trying to date with a heavily, heavily online world.

But I think getting offline and meeting real people is one of the most important things

you can do, like get offline because it's not real.

It's not real.

And it's not real life.

I mean, even maybe worse than that.

I've talked about this.

I think I talked about this maybe on Pines one time.

Barry Schwartz, it has a book called The Paradox of Choice.

And you can find talks that he's given on this same theme.

And one of the points that he makes is when you have too many choices, you make worse decisions

because you can have kind of option paralysis.

And this easily happens online.

Or, you know, if you've got an app, even a good app, like even, I'm not talking about

like sleazy stuff.

But even like, I mean shout out to Catholic match, a lot of people find their spouse on there.

So I'm not knocking the apps themselves.

I'm not knocking a certain approach where you're just like, okay, there's a thousand choices.

And I have to choose the best possible choice.

That's actually not good discern.

Like imagine if somebody was discerning the priesthood.

And rather than saying like, well, where am I from or what diocese do I live in or what

diocese am I connected to?

They said, I'm going to look at every diocese on earth and find like the best fit for me.

That person is never getting ordained.

That person is going nowhere.

And I think we can, you know, that's obviously a ridiculous example who would go through

that many options.

People go through that many options on the dating scene where they're looking at the profiles

of hundreds, thousands of people over the course of, you know, however many years.

And I don't think we've maybe factored in how unhealthy that is that when you're constantly

comparing the person who is proximate to the ideal person who might exist on the internet

if you just look some more, I think in both directions, you have people doing that.

And it can be incredibly destructive for a couple of reasons.

One, because you don't feel like taking a chance on anyone.

And two, you're comparing them quite unfairly to a basically an imaginary person.

And then you can become really, yeah, really distraught about the whole thing, really

blackpilled about the whole thing.

Where it's like, ah, you know, women are horrible or men are horrible or whatever, online

because you're dealing with the kind of unattainable ones who are having 1,000 people reach

out to them.

And meanwhile, this person you would be completely happy with.

You're not taking a chance on because.

Yeah.

And she's, you know, sitting one key over and church or whatever.

Well, and the reality is every single marriage and relationship has issues.

You trade people, you're just going to trade problems.

Or honestly, based on the thousands of conversations I've had with women about their marriages,

it's actually a lot of just the same problems over and over and over again.

Like the amount of time somebody complains, says something lovingly and supportively about

their husband.

And everyone else in the room is like, ah, yes, my husband does that too.

It's like men are all kind of the same at the end of the day.

I'll let the men in the comments beside they agree with that.

Actually, maybe we should ask the women in the comments too.

But like that to say, another thing that I think is really important to realize when

you're going into a relationship is to remember, you change a lot.

The most important thing entering a relationship is that you're both pursuing God and that

you're willing to change based on your convictions about truth.

Because like I think about, I got married at 21, I was a totally, totally different person.

My husband was a totally different person.

But we've become like we've now moved forward together and become more and more like each

other and have more and more in common and are better and better friends because because

we're both pursuing that same goal of following Christ.

And if you're both doing that, you're going to be okay.

Even though you're going to have problems.

Everyone has problems and everyone ages, everyone gains weight, loses weight, all the things.

You can't be so focused on getting this exact perfect thing right.

I mean, it's hard because on one hand it is one of the biggest decisions you're like.

But you have to not mess up the most important thing, which is that they're pursuing Christ.

Yeah, that is the actual most important thing.

When we're talking about vocation, vocation comes from Latin vocare to call and everyone's

calling is to be a saint.

In your pursuing your primary vocation, sainthood, well, that makes it easier to discern secondary

vocation.

My call to the priesthood, my call to the religious life, my call to marriage.

And then you have this kind of tertiary vocation, which is just what has got to calling you

to in this particular moment.

And if you are unsure about number two, do number one and number three as well as you can.

And I think it goes a long way.

Like if you are striving to be a saint and not just striving to be attractive to women,

I think you've actually become more attractive to women than someone who a thousand percent.

Because again, it's that safety.

You feel like, okay, this guy cares about the right things.

So I'm going to like, I like that.

And I actually ask an important question.

Yes, please.

And stuff like that.

So I think a big worry a lot of guys have, especially single guys is finances.

How much are women thinking about finances and what are they thinking about finances?

I think would be a really important one to address.

Yeah.

And when you dig, are you looking for gold or other precious jewels?

I think you're looking for a work ethic, precious jewels, come on Joe, low hanging crew.

You're looking for a work ethic, all like finances go up and down, things come and go.

Doing a job is really, really important.

And again, having that feeling that you're going somewhere, you have goals and those goals

might change, but it's the willingness to pursue those goals and to work hard.

Like if you're lazy, that is the worst.

That is like the most unattractive thing.

A super fit lazy dude is way less attractive than a hard working like a glee guy, honestly,

who smells good.

Yeah.

I mean, I suspect the answer here at least in part is that it depends on the woman.

Like some women, it matters more, I mean, even culturally.

I've talked to women who are from like different ethnic backgrounds where like their parents

are immigrants and financial security was a huge thing for them.

And they were kind of taught to really seek that out in different communities are going

to value that more highly different families are going to value that more highly.

And I think as a result, maybe there's some women who, if you're broke and trying to

get your act together, that's not going to be good enough for them and they're not

for you.

Yeah, that's fine.

The discernment.

If that's that big of a deal, then they're probably a little shallow.

And that's probably going to be their issue as they try to discern a Catholic husband.

So I think there's maybe one thing to really stress because I see a lot of anxiety around

I'm doing this thing that seems like the right thing and these women online are telling

me it's not good.

And I would say this like one, maybe that's a sign to not do that.

But two, maybe it's just a sign that that's not for you.

I mean, anything you do online, you're going to find people who are like, you're literally

the worst person in the world for having an opinion or for doing that or you know, anything

you see online is bogus like you look at freaking like the most beautiful woman I've seen

and half the comments are like, she's kind of ugly.

I'm like, really, there's a 0% chance if you ran into her and encountered her in real

life, you would not immediately be attracted to her.

Like, men and women are both ridiculous and online comments, online comments are the worst

place to get your facts, the absolute worst place, any information about what the opposite

sex wants.

And also, that's the other thing.

There's so much to be said for like chemistry that happens when you're with, when you're

in person with a person.

Like, if you're on a dating app and somebody's interested in you and you maybe don't know

if you're attracted to them, get together because you might have like a lot of chemistry

in person that you never would have known you had just looking at a picture of them.

Or you might be like, uh, I'm not that attracted to them and you date for a couple of months

and suddenly you're like, oh, I'm like super attracted to them now.

Like you like them, you know, yeah, I think that's the trying to discern a person just

from reading, you know, about them online or even someone's talking like, I'm mixed

on this.

I talked to my wife online, I wasn't discerning her as a future spouse, but I got to know

her just through mutual friends online.

We were in like a little online consecration group together.

There's a whole story there for another day.

But like I, I knew I enjoyed her personality.

I didn't actually know as attracted to her.

I shared that story.

I know on pints where I didn't like her profile picture.

And so I just was like, oh, yeah, she's a nice friend.

And I was in seminary at the time.

I wasn't looking to date or anything like this.

And later when I realized she was actually really attracted, then I was like, oh, I've

got to be a little more careful because I can't just treat her like a bro.

And, you know, I mean, now we're married and have kids.

Yeah.

So, but that one of the things that I think is a real takeaway from that is that the

in-person interaction can be totally different.

I mean, everyone's had this experience where you talked to everyone who spends a lot

of time online.

It's had this experience.

You spend time talking to somebody online, then you meet them in person and they're completely

different than you expected.

Yeah.

Or, you know, someone's this for the better, someone's for the worse, but at a certain

point, if you're going to marry someone, you've got to spend time with them.

So, getting that out of the way at some point seems good.

Yeah, I, um, I was seeing there were several comments.

Oh, actually, Pope Defender says, I feel women's standards are often unrealistic.

But if a man is assertive enough and seems competent, they can win them over.

Yes, absolutely.

I have a theory that anybody can make any other person fall for them within like reasonable

bounds, but I would say they're pretty wide bounds if they're just strategic enough

about it.

Like, I wouldn't go as far as you've just gone, but I think somewhere in between people's

idea, you know, because you can have a list of here's what I'm looking for in a future

spouse, and it's going to be a list of zero percent of people need, and this is actually

one of the dangers.

Yeah, don't make a list.

With dating profiles, I would, uh, excuse me dating apps because, you know, one of the

stats that I heard is that a lot of women are filtering for six foot and taller.

Oh, wait, hold on.

I want to respond to this.

How do I meet my tradwife if there are single, no single ladies in my TLM parish?

Um, okay, you don't marry a perfect tradwife.

But if a woman has not been expected to be like a stay at home wife for, you know, years,

she's not going to be good at it.

It's a huge learning curve, like learning to like make dinner every night, keep a house

clean, organize everything, manage kids.

This is a massive learning curve.

It would be like asking to step into a job with zero training and be perfect at it.

So anybody you married, if they haven't been married or have been managing a home, it's

going to be like a couple years of figuring it out.

I, I suspect that this is one of those areas where you'd just say, make sure you have the

same idea for what you're expecting your marriage to be like, but it's not going to be happy.

Actually, there's interesting social science data on this because when many women have

different expectations of gender roles in the home, that is quite unsurprisingly a source

of a lot of conflict.

Oh, yeah.

And so, you know, if she's expecting, we're going to do equal amounts of the housework

and he's expecting her to do the lion share or all of the housework, that's going to be

a fight unsurprising.

Oh, yeah.

And if you're a woman, the 1% of women on the channel and you're expecting your husband

to do 50% of the housework, just stop.

Let the record show.

This channel is 15% one.

Okay.

15% of women.

Your husband's not going to do half of the housework.

It's not going to happen.

So there you go.

Freed you up, guys.

You're welcome.

Yeah.

But I think it is a, it's a good question because there are, what he said, Joe had to

call BS on that one.

Which one did Joe call BS on?

I don't remember which thing I did.

Um, I think we, um, oh, yeah, so I started to say with like the, the ideal list where women

will often have a longer list of things that they're hoping for and then.

And yes, that can become unrealistic.

Now the pro of that is most women, at least over, you know, a pretty early age realize,

okay, I'm not going to get 100% of the things on my list.

And maybe the guy I'm looking for is very different than what I thought.

I want it.

Yeah.

And, and they can do the more particular discernment.

Like if somebody says, what's your ideal vacation, you're like, well, it'd be great to be

by the mountains and by the beach and by, you know, like, in a resort and they have it

be cheap and all of this and it's like, okay, maybe you've left zero options.

But then if somebody's like, Hey, do you want to go to this place with me?

You're like, yeah, that sounds great, actually.

Yeah.

It wasn't what your list had looked like because your list was completely unrealistic

and abstract and then, you know, disembodied.

But once there's an actual particular concrete discernment, it goes better.

And so that's, I think, one end of things, but I will say with dating apps where you can

put those filters in and try to force that list onto things, there is a lot of unhappiness

caused by that.

Oh, that would be, it would be so lonely.

Well, and you might, yeah, the putting things in a really tight box and then expecting

it all to work out.

That doesn't work in anything in life.

Nothing works out quite the way you expect it to.

And you stretch yourself off from what might really be good for you.

Like, you might, you know, you might kind of think you want someone like your dad and then

you get that and you realize it just brings up all this like issue and you don't want

someone like your dad.

My wife's a therapist.

If you want to do this episode, I might have her step in too.

Yeah, I'm not a therapist.

I'm not meant to handle your dad issues.

Somebody asked you to describe your perfect date April 25th, you just need to like jacket.

That's a miskin genealogy reference.

I've only seen the meme I've never seen the meme.

Okay, my perfect date, I would say just the other night, my husband took me on my perfect

date.

I was in like a really bad mood.

I'd been in like a three day funk.

I couldn't, I was like, couldn't pull out of it.

I'd gotten running.

I'd done all the things.

I was trying to do it.

And he was like, all right, we're going to get you in a good mood.

So we left the kids, we walked down to a restaurant.

He like bought me some whiskey.

He just made me laugh.

He told dumb jokes.

And by the end of the night, I was in a good mood.

Like, it was just being with him, with a person who likes me as a person and like focused

on me.

Yeah, and made me laugh exactly spirited.

Yeah, whiskey helps everything.

So it's just like a perfect date is just being with someone you really like.

And I think that's what it comes down to.

There's so much stuff around dating.

There's so many expectations and there's so much stress and anguish.

I mean, it's a terrible process.

I'm so happy to not be in this process anymore.

But you really got to boil it back down to the basics of like, who do I like to be around?

What do I like?

And then you can probably be attracted to that person.

Yeah, well said.

Okay.

I can't expect husbands to do half the work.

How about 30 minutes of work a day?

Husband claims up dinner while wife puts baby to bed.

Is that a fair expectation?

I mean, I guess that really depends on your husband's work schedule and your work schedule.

Every household is different.

Like, if your husband works really long hours and then, okay, here's my philosophy.

I don't know if this is going to be popular.

I'm not doing a pick me.

I'm going to sound like a pick me girl and I really don't.

If you're husband.

I'm sorry.

If your husband works is one, the 100% income earner, then the household jobs are your

job.

The Bay, the kids are 50, 50 because they are half his.

So like, for I would do it the opposite way, maybe your husband likes that better.

My philosophy is my husband's a sole income earner.

When he comes home, the household stuff, I do not expect him to do.

However, I will hand him a baby because it's his baby, you know, you also have two twin

infants.

Yes, yes.

Also, I literally am just tired.

Yeah.

We have twin boys.

So we have six kids.

And so he does like bedtime, like I, I will say, I've clocked out, I'll say, babies are

fed.

Everyone's showered.

Everyone's in pajamas.

I'm clocking out.

And then I jet and like, take a bath.

And he sits down and reads the Bible and prays with them and talks to him.

And he interacts with the kids, but I consider the household job.

I work.

But.

Can I actually add one more thing in favor of that?

Because we do, I think, pretty similar things.

Frequently, if we've got stuff that needs to get done at home, we've got three small kids.

I will take the kids out of the house so my wife can do the stuff in the house.

So she's getting, it's like, she should be able to get 20 times more stuff more done.

She's going to be better at doing that stuff.

I get to spend time with the kids and I'm working a lot.

This is better for her.

It's better for me.

It's better for the kids.

Yeah.

Where if you're doing everything with the kids as a wife and expecting your husband to

do stuff around the house that isn't going to be your satisfaction, my concern is that

that's going to leave everybody less happy.

And that's a little different of the baby because, you know, if you're putting an infant

to sleep and you're, you know, mercy in the baby and everything else, and you can't just

pass that off to your husband, fine.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Well, and I would also say it, if both people are working, it changes the rules a little

bit because if the wife is bringing in part of the income, you're going to have to divide

it up.

Like household tasks are a lot of tasks.

Yeah.

I guess maybe the best thing to say is the happiest is going to be something you work out together.

Like my, my family of origin, my dad loves to cook and he's really good at it.

And my mom likes to bake.

She doesn't like to, you know, grill or anything like this.

And so main course, my dad enjoys making it.

He finds it relaxing.

This is, it works out great.

And he also is a much tidier person, shout out to my mom, I've inherited those genes.

And so he will often like have things a certain way after, after the meal.

And this works better for them.

And one of the reasons it works better for them is it isn't like some abstract set of expectations

being imposed on the situation where he's not just like, I read that women ought to be

doing this.

And so you, you do all of this.

And it's not like, you know, she just said, well, I think you should be doing 50, 50,

so I'm going to make you, you know, that would not work as well.

Know your own strengths and weaknesses, your own desires, your own shortcomings.

And this is going to be sacrificial.

But I think it, I wouldn't keep a record of wrongs.

I wouldn't try to do what percentage is everyone doing.

And I would just try to do more than you think is your fair share and not be bitter about

it.

You know, take, take it as an opportunity to be like, this is the person I love.

Hold on.

Because there was one comment that said, each house should give 100% every day.

And then a person that said, the percentage depends on who is sick, who got little sleep.

That's a really important point.

This is a really important point in relationships in general.

You are in a partnership and there are going to be times where one person is the weaker

link.

You're not both going to be giving all your best all the time, like when my husband was

and hit the like rigors of his work training, um, he was not able to do basically anything

like, I don't know if you said this.

He's a doctor.

He's a physician is prepped to become a doctor, sounded insane, like just the hours are

horrible.

It was awful, awful, awful.

Anyway, so at that point, I, um, I did a huge amount, but then like when I was pregnant

with twins and I was like sick for nine months, he did way more than I did.

I spent a lot of time laying in bed, growing two humans.

So you really do have to, this goes back to like when you're looking for a spouse, find

someone that's moving in the same direction as you because what matters is that you're focused

on the same goal, you're moving in the same, like you want the same things like, okay,

you know, we were, when we were open to life and we got pregnant again, he knew like,

okay, and it's not her best self when she's pregnant.

I always say it's a woman's burden to bear, baby, it's a man's burden to live with a pregnant

woman.

Is a burden like women are not delightful pregnant?

Some of them are.

I'm not.

Anyone who's upset by that, just remember Anna said that.

I did not say that.

Yes.

I said that it's true.

Like, I do think actually there's the idea that it sounds crazy to even say it loud,

that being pregnant is work is something that sometimes I think as men, we can be in

need of reminding of, oh, you mean like 20 times a day.

Oh my gosh.

Yes.

I mean, yes.

It's just.

It's so hard.

It's, you know, like, I've had a big meal and been tired after the meal.

I don't know if this is easier or harder than that, but yes, growing a human is so hard.

So that's a really important thing.

If you're a Catholic man looking for a wife who wants to have a lot of kids, recognize

like, that is a huge ask, like, having, bearing a lot of children, I've, I've had six

and I've had miscarriages.

So like, this is a huge demand on your body.

I agree pregnant women are not delightful most of the time.

It's true.

Good job.

You're doing good work.

Hang in there.

The baby will be worth it.

It'll love you.

So like, your woman is not going to be your wife, your tradwife, you find who bears

you 12 children, like, you got to respect the work she's doing and what she's putting

her body through, like, a woman's work wears on her body in a way a man's work.

It does.

And depending on the work, but yeah, we all seem like the aging presidents.

Oh, yeah, I'm pulling up a tentative care.

Okay.

Most women do not marry a doctor difficult to live on one income for the most.

I didn't marry a doctor.

I married a man going into medical school.

And yes, you're right.

For a long time, I worked, it was very difficult.

We had really tight finances.

A lot of people do have to work.

And that's fine.

That's, I don't have any problem.

Like, you look at, you read Proverbs 31, the Proverbs 31 woman was bringing in a ton of

income to their house.

I don't think it's the end of the world for a woman to work.

And right, every, every individual and every couple and every family, they're going to

have unique gifts, talents, situations that they're in, difficulties that they're facing

and everything.

So it's not a one-size-fits-all sort of fix.

There is Gabriella asks, am I the only woman here?

No.

What?

15?

I'm here.

What about finding a Catholic husband?

Well, we've got you.

We can talk about finding a Catholic husband.

Real quick before we get to that.

Yes.

You brought up Proverbs 31.

Yes.

And we're probably going to anger a whole bunch of people in the trad space.

But I think Laila Rose actually had a really interesting insight into this is we have

this idea of like the man goes out one income household that's like the trad way of doing

things.

Like let's think about what trad was before trad.

The woman was out in the fields with that subsistence family like farm or whatever state helping

with the work because it had to be pitched and then done for the survival of the family

and the growth of the family.

So like you have to really, I don't know, I'll let you guys opine on that.

Yeah.

I mean, even right now, like I live, we both live in Kansas City.

You don't have to go far outside of Kansas City to find people who are still doing the

family farm thing.

And so the idea, we sometimes have a vision of the past.

It's really kind of a brief vision of like upper class Victorian life.

And maybe was never a realistic ideal and isn't realistic for the vast majority of people.

Yeah.

So if the idea is just, well, of course, your wife's not going to have to do any work,

that it gets trickier in a lot of these situations.

Yeah.

I actually have an article about this on Catholic answers called the perfect wife.

And I go through Proverbs 31.

I'm really passionate about this topic because not only is the woman working, the woman

also has an insane amount of freedom to make decisions.

Like the other thing that you shouldn't be if you're looking for a good woman is controlling.

Like if you want your woman to fully blossom into her perfect, tradwife self, you're going

to have to give her a lot of freedom to like explore and mess up and find what works for

her.

Like you got, she's a person, you know, women are people.

And they need to find their own process.

And you kind of need to be hands off and figure out like what's going to work for her.

In the same way that like when you go to work, you don't want her nitpicking and like telling

you how to do your job, you know, it's a job.

If you think about running a home as a job, then yeah, you got to, you got to let her do

it the way that works for her.

And she needs to let you do your realm, the way that works for you.

I found the line I was looking for earlier in Catechism and it's actually in the context

of family life with parents and children.

But it's something that I think is, is well worth kind of bearing in mind.

Paragraph 2227, children in turn contribute to the growth and holiness of their parents.

Each and everyone should be generous and tireless and forgiving one another for offenses, quarrels,

injustices and neglect.

Mutual affection suggests this, the charity of Christ demands it.

That's a really tough standard, I just dropped my phone.

It's a really tough standard and it is a standard nevertheless that I think is worth

bearing in mind.

Like we can talk about all of this stuff in the abstract, in the ideal, in the, what

is a good day look like, what is a good marriage look like when things are going well.

But the reality is, as you said earlier, like there are going to be hard times.

There are going to be days where one of you wakes up cranky or maybe you both do or you're

having a rough day at work or you're going through a slump, you know, you're, you're dealing

with depression or you're having a tough time at the office or whatever else.

And there are going to be strains, internal and external on your marriage.

And so having a spirit of just incredible forgiveness seems like it's just so important

to remember as you are kind of embarking on that journey or maybe as you're on that

journey already.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I was, okay, should we circle back somebody else had a fun, a perfect husband.

Yeah, sorry, I'm already taken.

The one he's gone.

Well, I did say you shouldn't be like obsessed with fitness, so yeah, yeah, fitness, food

in this mouth.

Okay, so I would say, remember, similarly, okay, men mature better in relationships that

outside of relationships.

So if you find a guy who's really committed to his faith, then he might not be a perfect

husband.

But if he has a good character and he's moving in a good direction, then it's hard because

I don't want to say like, you can fix that because that's not, you don't want to, but

it's true that men, he's going to mature within your relationship, women tend to mature

quicker outside of relationships, men tend to mature quicker in relationships.

And so he's going to grow into that and you got to give him the space to do that the

same way a man has to give the woman a space to do that.

And then as he's like pursuing his career and his goals and all the things outside the

home, yeah, you got to give him time to figure it out like.

And as long as you guys are, as long as he's pursuing Christ and he has, he's not, he's

honest and he has a good character, you can build him up to be the best version of himself.

And that's really what marriage is.

It's a sanctifying process.

You're building each other up to be the best versions of yourself.

So you can assume that you're the worst versions of yourself before you get married,

you know?

Yeah.

So I think a couple things.

In light of you saying that, I want to balance that out with some advice I heard from a

priest who, and if you're mad at this advice, be mad at this, I'll leave him anonymous

so he doesn't get me hate mail.

He said in his experience as a priest, when dealing with marital difficulties, they largely

amounted to women being mad that their husbands didn't change and men being mad that their

wives had.

And I thought that there was actually something quite insightful about that, that you're

going to age, you're going to change some of the vivacity and spunk you have in your

20s is not going to follow you through as you just get older.

And so go into marriage with eyes wide open on that.

On the other hand, if you imagine you can just change and fix the person and they have

like real problems that they're not working on, that's delusional.

So if I can nuance your advice and let's do what you think about this, you're in the

bio low kind of school of thought on this, like if you're looking for a stock, you don't

look for the stock that's already reached its peak, you know, $300 to share.

Yes.

You look at the stock that's at $10 a share, but that you know has the fundamentals to

re, like you're looking for the next test, like looking for the next apple, you're looking

for the next, what?

That's where you win big.

Exactly.

But you can't necessarily just, you know, if you're buying a stock, you're not like I'm

going to go control the company and get it there.

You know, you have to find the stock that you think is going to get there and be part

of it, but you can't control it.

That is a difference where it's like you can't fix him.

But if he seems like the kind of guy who is amenable to your influence, who is serious

about becoming a saint and becoming, you know, the, the best version of himself, these are

kind of Matthew Kelly expression, that's, I think the best you can do, is that, is that

right or wrong?

Yeah.

No.

That's about changing him.

I would say it's about cultivating and growing the good things you see in them.

So like if they have a good, if it's a good seed, like a good foundation, you can grow

but like you're not going to change, like these core personality things, like the things

that my husband does that annoy me, my oldest son does the exact same things they annoy

me.

It's just like genetic, like they both have the sense of humor where they like to annoy

you.

It's, it is what it is.

It's not changing.

It's really funny for the record.

The outsider to it, she's, she's given it a bad rap, but it's great.

Oh, he loves to like do anything that, you know, which is fine and it does make me laugh,

even then I'm like, stop, but at the end of the day, it makes me laugh.

So you're not going to change things, but you are going to empower that person to grow

into the best version of themselves.

Yes.

And yeah, you're not buying low to sell high, you're buying low to get dividends for life.

Yes.

Yes.

That better, better stock analogy there.

Or temperaments will not change for the most part.

Yes.

Austin shared something from a theology professor that I thought was very good.

He said, I'll never forget a wise theology professor saying you're getting married.

That's a radical thing.

You're marrying who they are today and who they become.

And I'm reminded here of, it's a line credited to CS Lewis.

I've never seen it in Lewis's own writings, but I've seen it in multiple places.

So maybe it's real, I don't know.

But he basically objected to becoming Catholic, not on the basis of what the Catholic Church

teaches today.

But on the idea that, well, I have to agree with what the Catholic Church might teach tomorrow.

And so, yeah, there is a radical thing saying yes to your bride here on earth or saying

yes to the bride of Christ.

I'm leaning heavily on that because Austin is currently Anglican.

Oh, yeah.

That this is ostensibly about marriage, but that was also, hey, vocational decisions are

really big.

So we're.

We work on vets actually.

We grip evangelical.

We were Anglican for a few years and then my husband and I both converted it together.

So.

Okay.

Austin also confirms that the Lewis thing is a real quote he's got it.

So perfect.

Um.

Actually, maybe, uh, maybe share a little bit of that.

Oh, my journey.

I know it's really funny to say, find a perfect Catholic wife.

My husband was like, you weren't Catholic when we got married.

Make the perfect.

Yeah.

You just create speaking of change, convert her, um, which actually I will, I do think

you have a good friend who her husband they were dating and her husband decided he wanted

to be a Catholic and she was like, okay, and they did convert together and she totally

took the lead, which is awesome.

So I do think men actually have a little more flexibility in that particular realm, um,

if a woman is really pursuing Christ, I know multiple people where the woman converted

to Catholicism and are like devout Catholics.

But as long as they already love Christ, I know a lot of on the other, I mean, I've got

a lot of, uh, Patreon donors over at shamesjo.com where they, it's the husband is Catholic

and the wife is not currently, and I would say this in that process, a lot of wives want

to see the thing lived out well, yeah, more than they want to convince him kind of argument

for it.

That's true.

Okay.

Okay.

Oh, our, our conversion story.

Okay.

Oh, this, see my wife and I converted each other to see, um, so we, we got married.

I was 21.

He was 23.

He started medical school.

We became really disenchanted with like the Protestant church.

I just felt stuck.

It was like, I'm at the end of, I'm at the end of Christianity.

There's nothing else here.

I know what they're going to say.

I can get up and say it myself on a Sunday morning, um, and so we went to an Anglican

church and we both really liked that.

And so we stayed there for a while.

And then I, so when he was in like a fellowship, it was a really rigorous training program and

he was working long hours.

I started reading the church fathers and just fell in love, was enchanted, really wanted

to convert.

And I remember, I went to him and I said, I don't think I want to be Protestant anymore.

And he, he was like on the computer in the middle of doing something and he just looked

at me and he's like, no, no, no, like it totally overwhelmed.

I mean, he's like, this is, we're not doing this.

Like, don't even bring this up.

But I, knowing him, I knew him well enough, I said, okay, take your time, but you need

to be able to tell me the doctrine that makes it impossible for you to convert.

So he like went and bought a Catholic Catechism and just like sat down and started reading

like, I will find the error in this book.

And then we converted together.

It was a real miracle, actually, it was an incredible gift of God that we converted.

But, um, yeah, I've never, never been more thankful for almost anything besides finding

Andy and finding the Catholic Church.

Beautiful.

And, you know, something, and as you were saying, some people were jumping in on the conversion

dating strategy and giving some pushback saying, hey, you know, my mom married my dad, thinking

he would change and he didn't and he still hates religion and he's an atheist.

There is a difference between marrying someone and being open to a relationship with someone

who seems open to changing.

Like, they think, I mean, I'll let you answer this, but I think two things that immediately

jump up from me are number one, is this person set in their ways or they open to your influence?

And number two, what stage of the relationship are we at?

Because they don't have to have their act together right away, certainly.

But you're wanting to see different things when you begin dating, then you're wanting

to see on your wedding day.

And if you've still got a bunch of red flags, don't get married.

Oh, yeah.

I would say, don't marry, don't date, don't even consider somebody who's like totally

not a Christian at all.

I was more thinking like, if someone's a really devout Protestant and you're devout Catholic,

that's likely something you can kind of edge on, you know, or you can at least explore

in dating.

Yes, if you're married and they're, if you are ready to get married and they are still

like, I am a thousand percent against becoming Catholic, that might be a deal breaker.

If you're just looking to like join, like kind of explore that relationship, I don't think

that should be a deal breaker as long as they actually are Christian and committed Christ.

Well said.

Okay.

No, do not date an atheist or marry one.

That's a terrible idea.

Okay.

So final thoughts in terms of how to get the perfect Catholic wife.

It seems like one piece of your advice is maybe you don't find her.

You find someone who's on her way to becoming the perfect Catholic wife.

Yes, that's very important.

Be confident in yourself.

Figure out, don't, don't expect yourself to be perfect either.

You're not, you don't have to be perfect.

You don't have to look like a celebrity.

You don't have to do all these things.

You need to have a life plan.

You need to be hard working and you need to be realistic about who you are and

who the people around you are.

And I know it's so hard.

It's hard to meet people right now, but be confident and then give her time and

space to change as long as you're both committed to Christ, as long as you're both

interested in building the same type of life together.

Then all these things are going to grow and change like it takes time and

relationships get richer and richer and more and more beautiful with time.

If you want to be the little old couple who's holding hands in the park and

you're 90, that took 50 years to get there.

So be more than that.

Well, of marriage, if you're 90.

Yeah, they probably didn't get married in their 40s.

Yeah, that's true.

90-year-old people, a lot of them got married.

I mean, well, but nowadays people are getting married in their 40s, so.

So, yeah, be gracious in the same way, you know, the scripture says,

like, do you want to others to suit up them?

Do you, be gracious in the same way you want women to be gracious to you?

So if you're like, I'm sick of all these women online having high standards.

And then you see this like, you know, reasonably attractive person.

You're like, yeah, not good enough.

Like, yeah, okay, wonderful.

This is, I think, excellent advice.

By the way, I see Ferris is in the chat, Ferris, how to be Christian.

Shoot me an email.

You're going to be on the show in a little while.

You didn't know that till just now.

We're going to, we'll do one of these.

Thank you so much.

Oh, yes.

This is so fun.

Thank you for having me.

A joy to be with you.

Did you guys want to look at any other of the starred viewer comments?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

There's a handful in there.

I think might be good.

Okay.

Last handful of questions.

Chris has been married three years.

One kid with one on the way.

I can offer, don't be a weirdo, but don't be a normie.

Exercise at least a little and find a girl who loves Zelda.

Yeah, you know, my husband loves Zelda.

I don't love Zelda, but we had a child who loves Zelda.

So you can, it's, you can breed.

You can breed a friend in that one.

That's right, I think.

They mean you guys do love D&D together.

We do play D&D, yes, we're very nerdy next level.

I mean, that's, it seems to me like real life Zelda.

Yeah, basically, I am, yeah.

Yeah, we can go with that real life Zelda.

I've never played.

I mean, I was raised in a house that said D&D is demonic.

We were two.

We had to admit to each other that we were like D&D curious.

We were both told it was demonic and one day it like came up.

We saw people larping in a park and we're like,

would you ever larp?

We don't larp, but not to say we wouldn't.

You're larp adjacent.

All right.

OK, the issue I've seen from my friends and brother

in meeting people to date, and most of my friends

who are married and college, once college was over,

most people cannot, yeah, that is really hard.

Yeah, no, this is, this is a real thing.

I mean, the people saying you guys

are out of touch here too old for this, et cetera.

I understand completely like the demographics of dating

have changed dramatically.

And one of the things that makes this difficult

is you do have to find yourself in a situation

where you are more likely to meet people

your own age in real life.

Now, I don't think there's any shame in using Catholic match

or anything like that, as long as, obviously,

moral principles still apply, be chased about it,

don't objectify people, and so on.

And don't let that give you analysis paralysis.

But I also think that there's a need for going to events.

If you're someone who wants to get married,

and there are parish events that you

know young people will be at or to ask

this in events, here in Kansas City,

shout out to City on a hill.

They have young little sports leagues and adoration

and pizza and beer and all this stuff.

They have all these events that are set up for people

in their post-college to marriage period of life

to meet each other and form good friendships

and discern marriage together and all this.

And it's beautiful.

I mean, it's a great way to form connection.

Well, so go places.

Don't necessarily just say your parish.

This kind of goes in to same with the second one,

any advice for meeting people in a parish community

that's basically not existent.

Look around, explore.

Actually, I met my husband at church one night.

He showed up one time and got my number

and he came to a young adults group

and asked people for their phone number.

Like, put yourself out there

because you're going to get rejected a bunch of times

but you only need one winner.

So it's okay, hang in there.

Yeah.

Yeah, go.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Exactly.

I'm going through OCA in a rural area,

basically, lost my whole community

and there are no young adult people at my parish.

Let me do, oh, that's really hard.

I'm sorry.

If you choose to convert, sometimes you do,

it is a costly process.

What I would encourage when I give you is,

God is going to take care of you.

I know that's really hard to hear,

but like the conversion process,

the losses you go through and that people get angry,

people, we had a lot of issues when we converted

and we did have some friends we lost.

But it is worth the cost.

It is absolutely worth the cost.

So I would say focus on your,

focus on the journey you're on

and ask God to provide a wife and, yeah,

I mean, what you're doing converting is more important.

It's the most important.

It's your eternal soul.

God's going to take care of you.

I promise you won't regret it.

Yeah, I mean, I would maybe add to that.

I don't know what your prior religious background was, Randy.

But if there are people that you knew and respected

and loved and you don't have to cut them,

maybe they're cutting you off

because if you were becoming Catholic,

but if there's people who are devoted followers

of Jesus Christ and they're open to you

as you become Catholic,

it's possible that you can have kind of a ripple effect.

It's not unheard of that one person converts

and then they become so on fire for Christ

in this new and deeper way that this creates kind of,

like you might be the person who is meant to help create

that you have an individual presence at your rural parish.

But I don't want to, you know,

I don't want to promise something I can't,

but maybe, you know, take seriously

that this might be not just for your own vocation,

but just for the good of the other people.

Have either of you help facilitate relationship

for someone younger and single, like, play matchmaker?

Oh, I love playing matchmaker.

My dream job is to just be a matchmaker.

Okay, you know, one of my best matches,

I dated a guy very briefly, dumped him,

said, I think he should date my sister.

I think you like her better than me

and they're married with three children.

So you're welcome.

Yes, I think matchmaking is a blast.

I actually really want to throw a matchmaking event

for sitting on a hill.

I think it'd be so fun.

All right, we're signing you up for all sorts of things.

Yeah.

And then finally, Charlie says, hello, I'm fairly devout.

Love my rosary.

Try to play, pray, lads, and vespers.

I kind of think that you might be more than fairly devout

if you're doing all this, but also an oddball.

I'm in a band, have long hair,

got my ears pierced recently.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

This person sounds almost exactly like me.

I know.

I can't scream to just be like, Mike, is this your old?

Yeah, right.

OK, I think guys with long hair are super attractive.

Joe can attest.

I'm constantly begging my husband to grow his hair out.

He had long hair when I met him.

Yeah, long hair.

Oddball guys are the best because they're interesting.

You have to spend the rest of your life with this person.

You do not want to be bored.

If you can't do fun things and be a little quirky

and go out on a limb and try things,

you're going to be bored as hell for like 50 years, sorry.

So no, don't be afraid of being an oddball.

And Mike says that.

Mike is my friend, Mike's totally.

Let me say something on the oddball thing

as someone who might fit that description.

You want to be confident.

So being totally insecure about being weird or different

is not good.

On the other hand, there are people

who go to the opposite extreme where, hey, I assume

you want to hear all about the history of Constantinople.

And you're like, I've just met you.

I don't.

And so knowing that your particular interest may not

automatically be the other persons, a good solution to that,

I think, have the confidence that you

are comfortable in your own skin,

and then be genuinely interested in the other person.

So one piece of advice we haven't given yet,

but that I think a lot of men would benefit from,

is we often approach dating as if we're

trying to do one of two things.

One, be like, look at all of my skills

and interesting features and random trivia facts

and wouldn't that be impressive and doing

a little bit of peacocking there.

And that doesn't, I mean, it depends.

That often doesn't go well.

Or two, focusing on just how she is going to improve your life.

And a third way to do this,

what I think is better, is to invest in her as a person,

show interest in her, find out, like, learn her

in a certain way, and ask good questions and be interested.

And if she has any social skills,

she'll ask you for more about yourself.

But don't feel the need to kind of force that.

You can just be curious, be interested.

And people who are nerdy are really good at studying,

but as a human being, like, listen to what she has to say.

And that's be a good listener.

I think that'll get you further than just being like,

but look at how much arcane trivia I have.

Yeah, well, and you can set it up to like,

like if you ask around a date, you can set up a date

that's going to show you in your best light.

Like, my husband brought me to a saltwater aquarium

on one of our earliest dates.

He's very passionate about saltwater fish.

We have a giant aquarium now.

So he, like, kind of set it up

where he was going to be in his element.

And I was impressed.

He knew a ton of facts about the fish.

It was, it was worth.

And it kind of, like, can I, can I quickly say, like,

the way in which you show that you have this knowledge

is not to show that you have the knowledge,

but to facilitate someone else in appreciating things more

by giving them the knowledge.

Yes, that's really good.

Yes, it's really important to remember

that women are people and you're getting to know the person.

But since when, Anna?

I know.

It's hard for me to remember this.

And yeah, like I said earlier, your job

is to help your white, like, get married

and help that person get to heaven.

So you need to know them well.

You need to be building them up.

You need to be treating them as better than yourself.

And vice versa, like, obviously, women have to do the same.

What if I know about fresh water fish and set?

They're other fish in the sea.

Try it, or the river.

Yes.

Maybe try going to, like, a nature center.

But I'm saying, like, being open about the things

you're good at and the stuff you're unique,

that makes you unique is a really good thing,

because that makes you interesting,

and it makes you who you are.

Yeah.

The villain of Vine said, my husband is a nerd for math.

Count yourself lucky.

I don't know if she meant to count to be a little bit of wordplay.

But notice, he's a math nerd who got married.

Guys, good job.

I think almost definitionally, a lot of you watching this

are theology nerds.

And I'm just going to say it on a little bit biased.

Theology nerds way cooler than math nerds.

And if there's hope for them, there's hope for you.

Theology nerds can definitely get married.

Although, do try and have a really good job,

not just at theology job.

Hey, I'm not going to cut some of that.

Contemplative knowledge is better than practical knowledge.

All right.

Thank you all so much.

And thank you, Anna.

Oh, yeah.

This has been so fun.

Be on the lookout.

I believe in the near to mid-future.

Anna is going to have a podcast of her own

on everyday evangelization called The Every Woman.

And I want to follow that as soon as I can.

And thank you all for your questions

and input in everything else.

And if you're interested in stuff like this,

we can do more.

Yes.

Go forth, young man.

You're doing great.

Hang in there.

Exactly.

All right.

God bless you all.

For Shem's Pope ring.

I'm Joe Hechmeier.

God bless you.