#261: Anxious & Avoidant Couples: 3 Skills That Change Everything (Part Three)

Have you ever sat in a conversation where both of you were talking, but somehow neither

of you felt heard?

One of you is explaining endlessly in the others reacting, words are flying around the

room like flies, and yet something inside of you quietly realizes this isn't taking

us anywhere good.

Maybe one of you is starting to shut down, maybe the other is pushing harder because the

feeling of desperation feels unbearable, you want to solve it.

You want to understand each other, but something keeps getting in the way.

And here's the truth most people are I never taught.

If there's no real listener in the room, there's no real communication happening.

And sometimes the most skillful thing you can do in that moment is not to push harder,

but actually pause the conversation.

Not to avoid the conversation, but to protect the connection, the emotional safety, and

the innate desire to come back to the conversation when everyone isn't a better place.

I'm Stacy Bartley, a relationship skills mentor, and I'm joined by my co-host and liver

Tom and her daughter Brooke, and this is Love Shack Live.

Today we're going to talk about the skills that make that possible.

Essentially, learning how to stay in a conversation even when it gets hard, because relationships

don't thrive because people never get upset and shut down or lose it.

They thrive because people learn how to realize it, regulate it, and come back to it with

more clarity and emotional capacity to try again.

Hi, thank you for coming, welcome to the Love Shack.

The biggest communication myth that has ever come upon me and my work is most couples

believe that we can just talk this through right now, and we're not going to bed until

it's handled, it's going to get better.

But when emotions are high, you have to understand that listening disappears, defensiveness increases,

and people talk at each other instead of with each other.

So you know that pursuit of understanding, that if you're a new time listener, you're

going to hear me say a thousand times, if you're an old time listener, I bet you can finish

my sentence.

Communication is for understanding, and that is a hard period.

So when we lose the ability to understand and we're talking at each other, this whole

thing is going south, and it's undeniably predictable.

Like I have never ever had an experience personally or collectively in my work, where somebody

pushed harder or said we're going to get through this right now, when really we're doing

all those things I just listed above, right, we're defensive, nobody is listening, everybody's

talking over each other, at each other, and you know what, we buy that ticket to what

I call the city of the fuck, and it works every single time.

I have never had an experience where I or my clients went, oh, I see the light, great

point, honey, it does not happen.

And so we need to be able to identify that moment when we need to do some other things.

Communication only works when someone has the emotional capacity to receive it.

And let me just say that again, that is so important, communication only works when someone

has the emotional capacity to receive it.

Sometimes the most respectful move is, I want to have a conversation, but I can't do

it well right now, because pausing is going to protect the emotional safety and the relationship

and it's one of the kindest gestures that we can offer, and it will ensure that each

of us are willing to come back around to the table to have that conversation again.

And I can hear in my head, what about those of us who think that pausing a conversation

is disrespectful?

Well, with great love and respect, I would say, well, given our options here, and we understand

that we can't get anywhere good without pausing, are you suggesting that being respectful

would be a better course of action as it sacrifices your emotional safety and willingness to

come back to the table?

Have you ever known anything to go well that's forced, pushed, coerced, manipulated?

I haven't.

And so maybe we need to change our association to a pause, recognize and realize it very

much is a kind gesture, and it's going to have things go the direction that you want

them to go.

Because if I push, if I force, if I coerced, if I criticize belittle, minimize, insist,

beg, plead, you know who's going to not come back to the conversation next time?

The person that's experiencing.

There is a 2013 movie called Herr.

It's a sci-fi romantic drama written and produced and directed by Spike Jones.

And the main character falls in love with Samantha, which just happens to be a voice-based

AI operating system.

I was reminded of this movie by a recent blog post from a stair per rail where she wrote,

it's not that the main character falls in love with technology.

He actually falls in love with being understood.

And I went, oh my gosh, that is so true.

The movie Herr expresses our hunger to be seen without being judged, to be chosen without

risking rejection, and to be known without the inconvenience of another person's needs.

And yet, in the unfolding of that story, we also get to see the cost.

Because to be understood by something that is programmed to understand you, it is not

the same as being met by someone who must create with you by investing into understanding

you.

This is where love between humans is actually created.

It's actually forged in the friction and risk of separate minds, hearts and bodies.

And there's something very exhilarating about it.

I also like to point out how when that movie came out, everybody was like, oh, this is

so ridiculous.

That would never happen.

People would never fall in love with their AI robot.

And now that's literally happening all over the world.

People are falling in love with their chatbots.

That just really struck me.

It's not that we fall in love with our technology.

It's that we fall in love with the idea of feeling understood.

Well, what do we always say?

What are the three things all seven and a half, eight billion of us need on the planet?

You know, one of them is to be acknowledged and remind me that I matter.

And also within the context of this series that we're doing, avoidant and anxious, falling

in love with your chatbot, removes, they're not avoided and they're not anxious.

But yet it takes away the friction and the risk for sure.

But then you are going to pay in regards to the experience, it's going to be a bit hollow

because you don't have ironically the friction and the risk in hearts and bodies.

We say relationships are the teacher.

Relationships are the classroom, okay?

If we remove the tension, then we remove the necessity of the skills because you're

no longer really in a relationship, you're kind of in an echo chamber.

The tension is what creates the necessity to have the tools because it creates the circumstances

where differences and obstacles are there, you know, if you don't have those, then there's

no need for growth, there's no need for learning, there's nothing to get through, there's

nothing to overcome.

It removes all of that, which, yes, I see.

A lot of people would be like, yeah, that sounds great.

But it's kind of like a never-ending utopia, that's not what life is supposed to be.

Well, and we know research shows that when we don't have something to push against, then

we don't ever get a feeling or a sense of fulfillment.

We don't develop self-esteem and self-confidence in ourselves.

We don't seek more expansion because we're too afraid to even try, instead we're going

the other way.

So there is a real cost there, there is, we don't have a confidence in us together to do

this thing, which can be very exhilarating.

We don't feel that self-esteem and self-confidence growing and expanding, that experience that every

little child knows, but every adult as well, you know, look what I did, look what I accomplished

and we don't feel that feeling and want to scream or put our arms up in the V for victory

because it was easy, quite the opposite.

It's absolutely quite the opposite.

So what creates enduring love, what creates those moments that you often see in older

couples where there's still a little bit of romance there, when you hear their story,

you're going to realize that they have lived a tremendous amount of life with each other

and not all of it was a picnic, right?

But they had persevered and forged their way together and that was the sweetest thing ever.

And so we won't have those kinds of experiences because we won't put ourselves in any places

and spaces of risk, which means that I don't have fear to push against in order to grow

and expand and to really realize my full potential, not only as a human being, but as a couple

with a lover.

And so my intention for this episode today was to actually give you skills that allow

you to pursue this kind of love and understanding together, especially when it gets hard.

And the first skill that I want to share with you is the idea of understanding your emotions

and catching your emotional upsets early, like fast, like a warning sign.

And so this is the importance of understanding ourselves and having an awareness of self

about our emotional experiences, because if I don't, if I don't have any awareness

about it, I certainly can't catch it early.

Some of you might even be going, what are you talking about?

And that's okay if you are, you know, no harm, no foul.

We all have to start where we are, but the skill of catching early is going to be so helpful

because in totality, we really only have about 22 seconds in order to catch emotion when

it's playing out in real time because it moves so fast.

And that 22 seconds, if we can catch it early, we can actually turn it into a slowing down,

a de-escalation of the emotion.

So it doesn't just pick us up and run us into exaggerated, reactive emotions that always

create more drama, chaos and confusion in the end and more heartache and more suffering.

So we've got to think about catching it early and some signs in your body, even some warning

signs to catch it early is tight chest.

Irritability, I'm having a difficult time listening and I'm feeling agitated or irritated.

I have a brain fog, I notice I'm checking out and I'm drifting off and I'm going somewhere

else.

Or I feel numb.

I just feel numb.

I'm not, you know, tuned in, turned on, tapped in, right, I'm numb.

The any urge to escape, any urge to go, I got to get the hell out of here.

Okay, that's catching it early or the urge to jump into fast.

We got to get this handled right now.

Those are all really, really great signs that help you catch it early so that I can just

at least be aware with myself.

So instead of pushing through it, we can disclose it and say something like I'm starting

to shut down or I need to pause now or I'm going to say something that I regret later.

This awareness gives you a moment of choice.

That's what awareness gives you across the board.

If I'm aware, I have more choices in regards to how I want to navigate.

So I'm sure all of our listeners, me included, what you just described are the signs that

we're having emotional upset.

But then most of us, I think we panic and we don't know what to do with it and usually

it's some type of a catalytic moment or eruption rather than what you just suggested we

could say and share.

And literally what you're going to do, step one as catch it early, is you're going to

pause the conversation until you can get yourself into a better, more clear state.

Like think about what is it you really want to say?

What is it you really need to understand on the other side that's so confusing and chaotic

for you that you just don't?

That's the place of clarity that we need to step into conversations with and the more difficult

they are, the more it spins, the more intentional and slow I need to be.

And so recognizing and catching early, when I need to pause the conversation, will be

a huge step up and a huge skill that will help you protect the emotional safety, connection

and willingness to come back to the table is what I say.

Another conversation and to try again, if I violate step one, the skill to catch it early,

I'm probably going to shut down, check out or lose it right right out of the gate.

Now we're operating in reactionary emotion, which is not going to take us anywhere good.

I'm going to buy that ticket to the land of the you know what the opposite of good,

the opposite of good.

So skill one is catch it early, realize and where and create an awareness about where you

are, right?

And then disclose it as quickly as you possibly can and don't hesitate to create that

pause that we talked about regarding that communication myth just a few moments ago.

It will save you so much suffering.

The second skill that I want to impress upon you is very much like the one we just talked

about.

But as I create that awareness and I catch it early, I need you to regulate before you relate.

That's really important.

So I need to be able to emotionally regulate myself as best I can before I start to try

and connect and share with you.

If I can't keep it together, if I can't regulate myself, well, there we are.

We're back to that pause again.

I need to go work it out.

Sometimes we just need to blow out the emotion before we can think clearly.

And I want you to know that's human.

There's nothing wrong with you.

Sometimes I have to stomp off, have a hike, you know, talk to my tree.

I call it shake a bush.

And sometimes I just need to sit down and have a good old fashioned cry before I can

think clear enough to step into actually relating to another human being.

Yeah, I think, again, we all feel that and there's, there seems to be this, this drive

to want to we got to get this figured out.

We got to move through this as fast as possible.

So we don't think and we're, or we're not able to literally like, how the heck

would I pause when I am so emotionally riled up?

I mean, it takes, it takes some intention to take some practice.

It takes some understanding of you're not going to go anywhere good.

If that's what you try to do.

Well, now I want to be very clear here.

I'm not talking about emotionally repressing yourself.

I'm talking about pausing the conversation so you don't take the emotion you're

feeling out on your partner.

You go discharge it somewhere else so that then you can come back around and

think a little more clearly and have a little more understanding about what it

was about that thing that got you so charged or what it is you need to explore

creating with your partner to remedy it, to go in a bitter direction.

So the emotion is not bad.

Emotion is human.

It's just we have a heck of a time with it because it moves so fast.

And when it moves really fast, our thinking goes offline.

We're not thinking clearly either.

So that's not the best time to be stepping into very important conversations.

We're going to say and do things that we don't mean.

And we're also going to shut down and check out as we cope with the emotion

that can be quite overwhelming.

So however you operate when emotion gets overwhelming, that's going to be what

you do.

And that's why we have avoid an anxious.

Some people spin up and get anxious.

Some people shut down and avoid.

Neither one is right or wrong or superior or inferior to the other.

But we need to regulate before you relate because communication cannot happen when

you're emotionally flooded.

So some quick reset tools, if I find myself in this place and I want to try and

maintain the conversation, would be to close your eyes and breathe very slowly.

Breathing is a wonderful thing to reach for because it literally will regulate your

body as you focus on your breathing.

And as you slow the breathing down, so will your heart rate, so will your emotions, everything

will start to slow down.

And it might take a good 10 breaths, big deep inhales, you know, in and out.

So would you, you would be doing that after you say, have excused yourself then if

you're in.

You could say, let me, let me just take a minute right here.

I just need to slow down and we could even do it together both of us are spun up.

Like, could you imagine what could, what could go better if we just had an agreement

between us that when we start to spin out of control and we want to try and stay in

it because this is an important topic, you and I are going to just close our eyes and

breathe together for five, you know, five seconds.

I'm not talking five minutes, I'm talking five seconds.

Do you know how many breaths you can take in five seconds?

A lot.

A good three.

What if you say, what if you will say that's too cheesy?

I can't ever imagine doing that with my partner.

Well, would you rather go the other way?

I mean, you have to think about the choices you're making here.

Would you, would you risk being cheesy?

Or are you going to buy that another ticket to the city of the fuck?

But the reason why I'm saying this is because there was a video on TikTok that went viral

this week of a lady who, I'm not sure if she's a therapist or just a couple of scotch,

but she was having her husband do a demonstration with her of what it looks like between a partner

who has high sexual desire and a partner who has low sexual desire.

And she was modeling a behavior of how to discuss expectations in a casual way.

The husband was the one in the example who had low desire and she had higher desire

and he said, hey, would you like to go lay upstairs and bed together?

And the wife said, sure, but can I just clarify what your expectations are for this?

And he said, sure, let's take our clothes off like in a fun way.

He said it and see where it goes from there.

And she said, thank you.

I appreciate you making an effort.

And he said, thanks.

I appreciate you not putting pressure on me.

And the comments were just roasting them saying like, this is so unrealistic.

This would make my vagina go dry immediately.

This is so stupid.

I can't imagine ever having a conversation like this and it made me feel bad for them

because it was a really beautiful example of what that conversation could look like.

But my question to the people who are leaving the common is the same one that mom

too disposed, which is, well, what's the alternative to just yell at each other

for having differing desire levels or to force the other person to have sex when they don't want to

or to never have sex based on what the kind of person who doesn't really want physical touch.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, those are the options.

Of course, it's going to seem cheesy and like therapy speak or like a conversation you've

never heard before when you hear it for the first time demonstrated that way.

Of course, or it's like, wow, that's really different.

I don't talk like that.

This is weird.

You're going to make fun of it.

And then another person stitched the video and she's like some kind of dating expert and

she said, therapist language is ruining relationships.

Look how sterile this is.

And it just was very interesting to me because I'm like, sure, you wouldn't really have conversations

like this during dating.

This is the kind of conversation you have in a marriage where you're trying to stay together

and make it work even though there's differences between the two of you.

You're finding a way to communicate about it in a way that works for both partners.

It's not the reason why it's weird is because no one is really supposed to witness it.

You know, it's only really for the two people in it.

They're just showing what it can look like.

It was very villainized and I just, it was interesting to witness it, you know?

Here's why when we think about that and that is a great example and I'm sure some people

listening to this podcast right now and I said, could you imagine closing your eyes and

slow breathing with your partner?

Yes.

That's why I brought it up.

Yeah.

Roll their eyes to your point and go, oh my gosh.

But think about those things that I'm demonizing.

What's the emotion that's running the conversation?

Is it that of possibility and new beginnings and maybe going in a better direction?

Straight up fear.

It's straight up fear because that makes me uncomfortable.

That makes me feel awkward.

That feels too vulnerable.

Oh my gosh.

I could never imagine myself opening up like that and being that honest and that real.

So I'm going to demonize it so that I can be hide behind the fear and that's why if

we continue to do that, then that intimacy, that understanding, that sense of safety that

we all say we long and want with our partner is going to continue to be elusive because

fear is going to run the show.

And so we literally are making a choice to demonize it because you're not even willing

to try it.

That would be a totally different conversation.

Why don't you try it and let me know how it works and you get to experience and share

with each other how well it works before you let fear run the entire conversation because

what's coming up, I would say, is something that's made you feel exceptionally awkward

and uncomfortable and are you going to talk about that or are we just going to demonize

it?

Whoever is listening to this is going to be like, well, they're just saying that because

this is their business and they make money selling these types of frameworks.

But as me, as just I kind of took myself out of that role while I was viewing this whole

thing on social media.

And to me, what it felt like was when I really wanted to like the Hansen song Bob when

I was in sixth grade and I couldn't admit I liked it because everybody else thought

it was so stupid.

But I bet they liked it too, but they just couldn't admit that because everyone was saying

it was stupid.

That's what the whole comment section reminded me of that, just hating it for the sake

of it being a little different way of speaking, you know?

Like sure, I understand why they're saying, yeah, that seems like therapy speak.

I get that.

So in this work, I can't see that.

But if you really ask yourself, what's the other option?

Like you're preventing yourself from trying something new, just because it seems a little

weird, but you're willing to keep doing what you're doing, which is literally breaking

your relationship down to nothing.

I don't think we realize very often the critical choice that we're making and what we're

really choosing in those moments, right?

I understand that it can be exceptionally awkward and uncomfortable to try some of these

ideas.

However, what it is principled is that emotion will run fast.

And if we can't catch it early and we can't slow it down, which is why slowing your

breathing down would help you.

I just want to point that out, Mom, too.

It's very important.

The reason why she designed these frameworks and these specific ways of speaking, all of

it is designed to slow you down.

That's literally the main goal.

So the emotion doesn't get ahead of you.

And now it is going to cause you to react and say and do things that you know are going

to harm your relationship.

And they're happening right now.

Why are you here listening to this podcast because you want some help and to do it better?

The sexual example I gave is a perfect example of anxious and avoidant.

And imagine if they didn't have that conversation before they walked up the stairs to the bedroom,

the avoidant would be thinking, we're just going to lay in bed and talk.

And the anxious would be thinking, am I allowed to kiss him?

Am I allowed to hug him?

Those wanting those things, but not knowing what was allowed.

And that is what would create the stage for a fight.

The little conversation that people think was awkward that they had at the bottom of

the stairs is the pathway to avoid that and actually create what you want.

Exactly. Exactly.

Fear is going to continue to dominate the more we hide behind it.

So without any of that clarity and conversation that does feel cheesy, but feels cheesy because

we've never been so open and raw and honest with our partners.

Yeah.

That's where intimacy lives and we can't have intimacy without vulnerability.

You know, those two things have got to go together.

So you can start to see, I hope my intention here is, yeah, breathing together might seem

really odd and crack us up and seem really awkward at first.

But could you imagine it taking you in a better direction when you sat down and everybody

started to get spun up and instead of fighting, laugh and giggle together would be even better

while you're slow breathing like heck, yeah, I would totally embrace that because it's

going to help you slow down and regulate yourself instead of just get swept away in the

fear, which is the reason why you're not going to speak up and acknowledge these things

or even try these things in the first place.

So yes, slow breathing would be a really great idea and if you don't want to do it together

then do it on your own.

Close your eyes and only you know your breathing.

Another super tip is to fill your feet on the floor, filling my feet on the floor consciously

causes me to feel grounded and more supported.

And if I need to, you know, get up from the table that you're sitting in, walk to the

same, grab a glass of water, hydrate yourself and then slowly as you practice your breathing,

come back to the table and try again.

These are things that you can do to just help you slow down, changing and adjusting your

posture or something in the chair, filling the chair underneath you.

These are all really helpful things in order to help you regulate.

It would be incredible for you to say I'm overwhelmed.

I need 20 minutes.

I'll come back at 7.30 and then I wouldn't have to do it in front of anybody.

Right.

Just on your own.

You could go do those things on your own and get yourself to a better place doing some

of those things I just mentioned above.

None of them have to be done with your partner.

But if you could catch it early by saying, hey, I'm feeling overwhelmed because I have

the awareness that I am, my chest is starting to feel tight.

I need 20 minutes.

Let me go regulate myself, discharge some emotion and then I'll come back at 7.30.

That would be incredible.

And by the way, I want to explain why the return time matters.

One of the most common experiences that we are all probably very familiar with in our

relationship is not now, not now, not now.

We're not doing this right now.

That means we're not talking about this.

And so it makes it really difficult for us to be okay, pausing because we're so afraid

that we're not going to come back around to it.

So I feel like I need to push instead right now.

So declaring a time, a day and a time, we're going to come back around to this conversation

allows us to reassure ourselves because when we start practicing this, that panic button

is going to go off because it's happened so many hundreds of thousands of times before.

And an anxious person isn't going to be so sure they can trust it.

But I promise you, when you make good on that commitment to come back in 20 minutes or

tomorrow morning, right, after we get the kids off to school or tomorrow night after work,

when we both feel like we're in a better place, it's only going to take once or twice

for us to realize we're going to make good on that to try again before we'll take that

over over reacting any day.

And I want you to think of conversations like rounds of a workout, each round counts,

it's going to help you understand more about yourself and about your partner and building

that repetition to come back around to the conversation, even if we only last five minutes

when we're first starting before we're all going, okay, you know, touch it early, regulate

before you relate, if we can only get five minutes out of that experience, that's going

to be a precious five minutes that we can build on and then pretty soon it'll be 10 and

then it'll be 30 minutes.

And then we, we recognize and realize we can regulate and sit in this place to have

a conversation far longer because we're honoring those places and spaces for each other and

we're creating a trust and a resilience and our relationship to come back to the conversation

again and again and again with zero expectations.

Okay, yeah, it's better if we just come back to the table with the intention of just trying

to say what it is I need to have understood and then listening to such a degree that I can

understand what you're being, what you're sharing to me and that's, that's the whole goal.

That's my expectation is we're just going to try and do that.

The outcome have no idea where it's going to take us.

We're not even going to worry about solving problems right now.

We're just going to do that.

I have a question I was having a conversation back and forth with a woman on TikTok who is

commenting on one of our avoidant videos and she was saying she was I think slightly offended

that we referred to the anxious person as anxious for wanting to talk through these things.

And I was trying to explain to her that we really don't like labels and that we're only

speaking in the context of anxious and avoidant just so that people can understand where we're

coming from, not really because we're obsessed with attachment styles.

You know, like we would probably never talk about them again if that was an option.

We're just talking about them because that's how people talk about this issue.

And I was explaining to her that what you meant in that video was that to an avoidant person,

anxious people can seem controlling to want to talk through these issues.

And I would wish you would stop referring to anxious people like this.

So what I tried to explain to her was that like I said, we don't like labels,

but the only reason you were framing it in that way was because to the avoidant person,

it does seem when the anxious person is frantic about wanting to get the same met just like you

were talking about, it can seem extremely controlling and anxious, even if you're just being really

reasonable as the anxious person coming up them because their avoidant is putting up so many

walls or like sending out the alarm like, stay away. This isn't a good situation for you to get

involved in, but it was very hard for me to convey that to her. Can you explain what I mean a

little bit more if you know what I'm saying? Yeah, just think about what you do when you start to

spin up. What do we want? We want that to end. It's an insufferable place to go.

And probably without even realizing it, we are pushing things along.

It's and we have great reasons as to why we're pulling out those reasons and relaying them on

the table. No, no, we need to do this now. No, no, this has got to happen now. No, I've been

holding this for far too long. No, it's because you've always walked out and didn't want to talk about

it. And we don't realize that those reasons are pushing a conversation that somebody is struggling

to step into and me pushing it and giving more reasons as to why this is the time now doesn't

make me feel any more comfortable about having it. And then pretty soon it just starts to feel

overbearing. Kind of like the idea you were just talking about in your example with the

couple demonstration on TikTok, right? Very similar. And that's why they're very similar experiences.

If somebody was just to kind of come at you and force you to do something when you're saying,

I'm not ready, this feels uncomfortable. You know, I feel overwhelmed. I don't know where to begin,

which is very commonly what an avoidant person feels. It doesn't matter how many great reasons

as an anxious person, you're laying on the table that are very logical and rational.

You're still pushing the conversation right now without asking the question of what is it you

would need in order to feel comfortable engaging with me? We don't even think about asking that.

I think a lot of the comments that come in on our anxious and avoidant content is people who are

exhausted from the dynamic. So they feel as though they've done everything they possibly can to

get the avoidant to come to the table. And they're tired of being villainized as the anxious,

which I totally get because they're tired of being told they're pushy this, this, this, and this.

And so I think what is misunderstood fundamentally, basically on any video we create,

not even about anxious, slash avoidant is that what most people are missing here is the skills

that you need underneath you to support you to have these conversations that we're talking about.

Pretty much don't exist in any couple dynamic. So you're asking the person that you're in a

relationship with to show up as a person who has all these relationship skills that they don't have.

They simply don't even know they exist. So they're reacting based on their instinct and their

natural coping skills and all the things that they've done the entire 43 years of their life.

But you're wanting them to show up as a perfect skilled up partner, you know? That's the problem.

So you're you're judging them as though they are skilled up, but they're not.

Well, and we can think because I know these things and I'm skilled up and I can do it and it's

super easy for me. I mean, what's wrong with you? Watch me do it. I can do it right now. I don't

realize that's a skill. I don't realize that I am skilled up maybe because of the household I grew

up in or because of the friends and family members that I had around me or my community that I

had around me or maybe because I've really done a lot of growth and I've done a lot of work.

Now, there's a flip side to that too. I just want to mention, when I've done a lot of work,

it's really easy for me to label and demonize others. I just cautionary tell there,

I want you to celebrate the work that you've done that everybody needs to do their own work and

not labeling people and giving advice in that way and telling people what's wrong with them

is probably going to do more damage than good even though it's coming from a really good place.

Well, and on your breakup video that you recently did where you're explaining why sometimes people

break up with you and it's sudden and you can't believe it happened and they they ghost you.

You're explaining all the stuff that's happening underneath that. Someone in the comments was like,

if they wanted to break up with you, they would just come tell you why they wanted to break up with

you and they would give you the reasons and that's what good communication is. That's a false

pretense you're setting because the person who broke up with you doesn't even know that that's

an option or doesn't even, they're not the way that we judge our partners. We're thinking there's

the choice of coming to you and telling you everything and communicating honestly or ghosting.

Those aren't the choices that were made. They didn't think, oh, I could go to my partners,

tell them this thing or I could just go to them. That's not what is going through their head.

That's a very logical response. That means I am in my head and I know all the rules structure and

so I'm going to rehearse the rule and that's going to be the way it should go. We're forgetting

there's this whole emotional side of us as human beings that really rocks our world and the

emotion is what it is I'm managing in these moments, right? The fear of the awkwardness, the

uncomfortable experiences. We were just talking about them a few minutes ago. We don't realize

that that's what's creating people to ghost you. They're not thinking, I'm going to ghost you.

They're thinking, oh my gosh, I don't know how to deal with this right now. I just can't deal with

this right now. I'm just going to put this off until later and then later conveniently turns in

to day two, three, five, six weeks and then at that point in time you go, oh, forget it and I didn't

had to come back from that one. Exactly. I just wanted to, I think it's very important that we kind

of like ground ourselves in this moment and think, okay, my partner is not looking at two choices

where one is the right thing to do and one is the choice that they're making which I think is

the wrong choice and choosing the wrong choice. You know, they're not doing that. Correct.

It's purely survival. That's all it is. It's survival. I'm going to invite us all right now

to think about something logically. You know you should be doing, but you're not.

And are you actively choosing not to do it? Correct. Correct. And now you understand the world

of emotion, right? The resistance, the fear, the awkwardness. There's friction there. There's tension

there. But I have a really good reason for mine. Of course. And so do I. And you know all the

intel in your own brain. And how many times does human beings do we give advice to other people

that we should be taking for ourselves? So it's much easier to recite the rule. Here's the rule.

Okay, now go do it. Everybody goes like the way that we set it up. We know there's two choices

and we know the good one and we know the bad one and they're making the bad one. All that's doing

is hurting you more. It's hurting you. The person that's thinking that more because it's assigning

so much more malice to your partner's choices. When like dad said, they're literally just in survival

mode. They're not looking at a map and thinking, how can I hurt them the most? There is Ziggand

Zagging and trying to survive this situation that your relationship is in, you know, like it sucks,

it's painful. And what we need to do instead, so what's the other side of this? I'm going to make

sure we speak to that is what would be happening for them emotionally that would cause them to show

up like this? Yeah. Let me understand that because then I'll understand the person. So if we go

back to that movie from 2013 about her, what is the person craving to just have a safe place

to be understood? Validation. Yeah. Yes. To be able to say, man, this emotion is really struggle.

I'm really feeling afraid. I don't know what to do with this. This causes me to feel overwhelmed.

And you know what the chatbot would say? Yeah, that makes sense. I'm here for you. So, wow,

I understand exactly what you're going through. You are so strong. You have a heart of gold.

Let me tell you, this is probably what you're thinking and then you go, oh my god, that's exactly

what I'm thinking. I love you. And so we just just be mindful. We won't go into it today in our

conversation, but there is a logical part of us and there is an emotional part of us. And if we

would always do the things that just make sense according to the rule structures that we have for

ourselves, society, culture, from our families of origin, we wouldn't be having any problems.

That's not what creates the problem. So telling me the rule isn't going to help me. I have this

whole emotional side that I'm dealing with. Especially when you're dealing with emotions being

told the rule by someone is probably the most annoying and unhelpful thing you could do. You know,

like I don't need to be told the rule. I know the rule. Well, that's that would be the exact

opposite of understanding. Remember, all of this is for one thing. Understanding. That's it.

What you emotionally struggle with. What emotionally inspires you and drives you. What are you

emotionally attached to? What are your dreams and your hopes? How would you like to see this go?

What causes you to feel emotionally safe? What is something that I do that makes you feel unsafe

to tell me how you feel? Correct. Those are great. You see, so none of this has any. Here's

and here's another context. I think that's really important for all of us. Me includes like,

we can understand and seek understanding even when we that's not our way. That's the important

thing. It's not about our way. If we truly want to understand another human being, then we have to

step in empathy is to feel with someone. Doesn't mean you have to agree with that. You've maybe

have never felt like that in your entire life. Doesn't matter, right? It reminds me of an example

that you guys often use where if your mom always gave you tomato soup when you're sick and then

your partner is sick and you give them tomato soup because that's how you like to be taken care

that and they hate tomatoes. That's probably not going to be a good way to make them feel better.

You know, and then instead of just listening and saying, oh my god, I didn't really as you hate

tomatoes, you get offended and you say, what the hell? Tomato soup is delicious. Why can't you eat it?

This is how I was always made to feel better when I was a kid. That's what we do. And all that whole

time they're sick feeling like shit and they don't like tomato soup and you're forcing them to eat

tomato soup and it's not making them feel any better. It's taking them actually sick to their

stomachs and then you're getting mad at them for not liking it. And now we know why we call you

controlling. Yeah. Point made, right? But just imagine how many ways that little sick situation could

be misunderstood on both sides, you know, or misinterpreted or dragged on for years. The tomato

soup story could be like the alarm clock story. Sure. Yeah. So for sure. And some people eat the

tomato soup even though they hate it and it breaks them out in the hive just because they don't want

to hurt their partner's feelings. Yes. So true. So true. Okay. So before we step into the last skill

that I wanted to share with you and that was a really great conversation to just help us

understand how important understanding really is. And that yes, we have this logical place and

this emotional place and it's the emotional one that's going to challenge us. If we could just

spout the logic and everybody could agree on that and execute on that, we wouldn't have any

challenges between us as human beings. It's the misunderstanding of the emotional parts and

pieces that we need to truly understand and become aware of. So that's why I'm sharing these

skills with you. The pause is important. So if we catch it early and we can pause it,

that's going to help you so, so, so, so much. The second skill that I shared with you is

regulate before you relate because communication cannot happen well when we're emotionally flooded.

And that's where we stepped into the slow breathing and the feed on your floor,

those kinds of things. So the last one that I want to share with you that makes a huge difference

is when we make a mess of it and we will, I do still, to be completely honest with you. I'm a

human being first before anything else and that's true for all of us. We're a human first and

that emotional place can get the best of us and it will get the best of us sometimes. So the last

thing that I want to encourage you to think about is repair quickly. The do over really fast

because one of the most damaging things to our relationships is we have these messes and then

we defend them and then we never come back around and talk about them and understand them.

And so they literally accumulate, accumulate emotionally. I call them little emotional

prisons because what I don't talk about and clean up today is just going to linger around and

then tomorrow it's something's going to be added to it. Now we can't talk about that one and we

can't talk about this and we can't go over there and we can't bring that up until pretty soon.

We don't have anything we can even talk about. I just thought of a good kind of visual for that.

Pretty soon it becomes into like a hoarder's home that you see on the TLC show and you only have

tiny little pathway that you can walk through that safe. Horting is an emotionally driven

experience and that is exactly what's going on. It is a physical metaphor for all of these places

and spaces where I feel like I can't go. So I feel them with things. So that is spot on

brook. The doover is really important. Every relationship has messy moments and the healthiest

ones repair them quickly. Like right now a doover can be done in 22 seconds. We say give first and

give fast. Yes. So check it out. Some conversations that you could literally do right now. I just

went quiet and I checked out. I'm sorry. Let me start over. I just said something that I really

didn't mean. It just came out wrong. Let me try again please. I care about how this goes.

Here's what's happening for me right now on the inside. I'm just a hot mess right now. I need

just a minute to go think about what it is I want to say and then I'll come back to you.

You can even say I created a mess. Tom and I will say I'm coming in the hot right now. Just give me

a minute. Trues those little truths of being able to clean it up right now and acknowledge the

thing that I see that we both see are actually harming us or taking us in the direction that we don't

want to go in. Just clean them up and try again. And as I like to say repair builds trust fast

and it will happen faster than perfection and doing it all right ever would. So take all the time

you need to get clear about what it is you need to clean up at not one second more.

Clean it up fast because we waste too too much time in our lives trying to decide how we're

going to tell the truth and how we're going to come back around to it and who's going to break the

ice and you want to talk about awkward moments. We have those consistently over time if we don't

learn how to just clean it up and repair really fast. That's really important.

So just recognize and realize that we're trying to lower intensity, slow your pacing, talk about one

topic at a time, accept the need to pause and celebrate and look for effort not performance. If

we don't do that then we're going to have a tendency to rapid fire questions, interrupt each

other, get sarcastic, maybe that turns into a few threats, maybe then I start to attack your

character and your skill level. We talked about that and I start talking about what you're doing

and what you mean instead of myself and I'm going to tell you those are words of war. If I talk

about you, I tell you how you think, how you feel, what you need, who you are, why you did it,

any of that. Oh, we're off to the races. It's game on, you know. So when the goal instead

becomes winning the moment instead of the performance, you're going to have a much better shot

at staying present in the conversation. So skills are really important here and I hope that I've

given you a few here that you can implement into your relationship and think about right now.

Just even consider and I'm not suggesting that they won't bring up feelings of awkwardness or

feeling uncomfortable if you were to contemplate and imagine yourself implementing them, but I'm

going to tell you right now also that that is the path to expansion and going in a different direction.

So we also don't want to let fear shut you down from trying. If you'll try, I can almost

guarantee you it's going to go better. What I often remind people, like even on clarity calls and

stuff that burden looking to see if they want to work with us and stuff, I say I think the really

unique thing about how Stacey has created all these frameworks and skill sets and such is

you'll find there's no complicated words in any of them, but what they what there is is the

sequence of which we use them and how we have Stacey has designed them is very different to how

we've most of us have used them in the past. So there were almost we have people say gosh guys,

I can't seem to get them in that sequence out of my mouth. I mean they are clunky in the order,

but Stacey over thousands and thousands of sessions and things has realized that in this sequence

it's going to render a much different experience for you and your special someone and that's why

they are designed that way, but they feel clunky. They're not confusing or fancy words. The sequence

of which we use them is time tested. This is what Stacey has been using since 2013 with thousands

of people. It's the reason why people thought that video I talked about was clunky. It's the same

thing. It's the same thing. Exactly. It's just because it's not in the way that you're used to hearing

couples speak. Exactly. They're meant to lower defensiveness so that communication remains

possible even in even in really tense situations. The thing that I want to leave you with is the

thing that if you take nothing else away from this podcast, you remember this communication

is the pursuit of understanding and it will require participation from both people. And so if we

have somebody who's not in a place to do that, it's best we honor that and then start to understand

why the resistance, why the struggle from an emotional place, or why am I getting so spun up

and panicked about it? Let me understand that and share that because those are the things that we

need to talk about, not necessarily the circumstances and the logistics of the deal, but emotionally

where we go. That is the driver of our conflict. So those are the things that we want to understand

when we talk about pursuing that understanding between us, but avoidance and anxiousness.

I want you to know that it starts as a place of protection. It's not a personality flaw,

but I also want to reassure you that it doesn't have to be permanent and you don't need to become

a different person. You simply just need to understand and practice some different skills because

connection isn't built by never making messes. Thank goodness for that. It's built by learning how to

come back when you do again and again and again as a human being. And I would like to announce that

this series isn't over, although this was the last teaching installment of this next week to finish

it out. We're going to answer the questions that we've received about anxious and avoiding

attachment via email on social media, on Instagram, on TikTok, private messages.

We're going to answer those because we've received quite a few. We've answered some of them on social

media, but I find it's really nice to talk about them more in depth on the podcast as well.

I totally agree. And if by chance you're listening and thinking that is exactly what happens to us,

but we don't know how to break the cycle where we want more help implementing the things that we've

talked about on this podcast today, I would encourage you to schedule a clarity call with Tom so that

he can help you understand how you shut down and what triggers that and which skills might make

the biggest difference in your relationship right now. And you can schedule yours by going to

stacibartly.com forward slash apply because the reality is avoiding what needs to be shared as a

miserable way to live together. Skills make something new possible. And yeah, they're going to feel

awkward and weird at first, but they're so life-giving. You'll be glad you did it.

I follow the fun today. I just wanted to win, right? I just wanted us to come away with this for

a win. And as you maybe try some of the things that we've talked about on this podcast today,

I thought it might be fun to create a tiny wins tracker. So at the end of the day, you're asking

yourself a different question. You're asking yourself instead of, oh, why does this keep happening?

You're asking yourself, what did I or we do better today than yesterday? What is a teeny tiny

win that we can give ourselves some credit for? And maybe we, we somebody says, I'm going to pause

or somebody said, hey, you know what? I just shut down and I'm sorry. Or maybe somebody says,

I need to take 20 minutes and walk to the sink and get a glass of water and we down or

regulated and use some of these things. That would be a huge win and a tiny win that you could

log in your tracker. So celebrate your small improvements. They matter. It's the little teeny tiny

things that take us to different places overall in our lives. As I'm sure you've heard before,

it's the small things, not the big things that take us where we want to go.

On the song that I chose for today is a song called Bloom by Paper Kites. And Paper Kites,

if you're not familiar with them, is a bit of a fulky band and they have this precious little

song about the hard pieces that there are to say, right? You feel my head with pieces of a

song that I can't get out, but can I get close to you anyway? And isn't that kind of what we're all

thinking? Like I don't know how to get these things out of my mouth. I don't know how to say what

it is I want to say in my communication, but can I get close to you? And we realize and we

intuitively know that communication is the way that we bond and connect with human beings. And so

that's so often why we try and force the conversation to happen. Because what's really

emotionally driving that is I just want to feel close to you. Can we talk? Why miss you? Can we talk?

So it's a precious little song. So that's a wrap. Thank you so much for being here inside the

love check with us today. And if this conversation moved you or helped you feel a little more seen or

gave you something to think about, please consider sharing it with someone that you care about.

And that's how this podcast grows. And if it's helped you personally, please consider leaving

us a review. We would really appreciate that. Remember love isn't enough, but skills are

learn them, practice them, lift them. Bye bye for now.

All right, it's time to leave the love check. But before we part ways, we want you to know

how door is always open and we'll leave the porch light on ready to welcome you back whenever you

need a dose of relationship wisdom. For more resources and tools, visit us at lovechecklive.com

to dive deeper into the topics we've explored and find additional support for your relationship

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check live community.