3.31.26 | Emilia Doran, Chris "Mad Dog" Russo, Alan Shipnuck and Chantel McCabe |

Good morning and welcome, man. This is Five Clubs on God Channel. You are a vital part of our game.

Thank you for having me on. All the way to the greeting. What was that fun? I've always wanted to be on Five Clubs.

Thanks Gary.

Good morning, welcome to Five Clubs live on God Channel and PGA Tour Radio Channel 92.

On Series 6M, I'm Gary Williams. This program every day is presented by Century Insurance.

They're in the business of business insurance and they're also in the business of investing in

the game of God. At every level, first TUSGA, PGA Tour and right here at Five Clubs, if you want to

evaluate your business insurance, do it with them. They want to be right by you and it's not just

one. It is two, two for Tuesday, two live hours for us as we embark on what is one of the great

golf fortnights. They don't have many. The USGA had one in 2014 down in Pinehurst for the US men's

open and then the women's open. This week it's the Augusta National Women's Amateur and obviously

drive chip and puttin and masters week. So for two hours, what's the T-sheet? Let's take a look

much to get to and many guests. What transpired on Friday is not going away and so with all that

happened over the weekend with Gary Woodland was some people that were on the program you'll say.

I didn't discuss the incident with Tiger Woods that took place Friday afternoon very near his

home on Jupiter Island, but I will in just a couple of minutes. Amelia Durand, before she head

south literally, she will leave here and head to Augusta, Georgia for her own fortnight because

she will be a big part of the broadcast team. Not only this week on the TV site for golf channel

and NBC for the fun around from Augusta National this coming Saturday, she will be a big part

on the radio's site on Master's Radio. That is Series 6M's channel 92 next week. I look forward

to being a part of that team as well. The N.W.A. field will discuss that with her because

she played in this event a handful of times. She's played in every big event. It seems like in the

women's game still an elite player. So we'll get her thoughts on this field which is very, very

young, but some players who among the favorites have some experience at Augusta National in this event.

Christopher Maddog Russel, Ranting and Raving yesterday about Connecticut Duke this morning we

get his thoughts on golf. For people who may not listen him on a regular basis on Channel 82

on Series 6M's Maddog Radio, he loves golf, plays a lot of golf, and talks about it this time

of the year. He dives in during the major season. He will have Shambly and Learner and Noble on

the program and Fred Couples and Billy Andrade. He's got his stable. His thoughts on experiencing it

as he did last year, but also his thoughts on some of the players because he does take a genuine

interest. And then the great sporting venues from the dog himself, he's been to all of them.

Where is Augusta National in his hierarchy of all the sporting experiences and the venues

that he has attended? Alan Shipnuck, he has written in excess of 10 books. He has got a new book,

Rory. It will be available for you on April 7th and I finished the book last night. And it's

interesting that he would write a book about somebody. Look, he didn't know he was going to

complete the Grand Slam and he began the project. That's anecdotal material and accidental good

luck for him, but it's not like he didn't have plenty. But why do it now? Why not wait? One of the

many questions for one of the most skilled writers who covers the game of golf. Shantel McCabe covers

all facets of the game of golf. She will be the host on the radio's side for Sirius XM this Saturday

because the Augusta National Women's Amateur fun around will be live on Channel 92. She will be the

host. She's done it before. She knows the women's game expertly. I'm looking forward to having

my former colleague at Golf Channel with me and get her thoughts on this field because she covers

the LPGA, the Epson Tour Amateur Golf. She did a masterful job for years doing interviews at the

Cornferry Tour Finals. Those are big stories. These are big stories. So that's your T-sheet,

a two-hour Tuesday for us. In a reminder next Monday, we will be live from Augusta, Georgia,

right across the street from Augusta National, the Double Eagle Club. Looking forward to having

Jim Nance, Scott Bampel, Ben Crenshaw, Jaime Diaz, Key Stewart, and others on the program live with

me for two hours to get your week started. It is master's week. But I didn't discuss this yesterday.

It wasn't a question of avoiding it. Not at all. Not our fact. I was on Sirius XM Friday night for

a couple of hours. I was also asked to go on several news networks who did not have the tiger's

story at the bottom of the hour in what TV terms, whether it's the 300s or the C-block,

at the top of two live prime time hours, networks were leading with this story. And I was asked to

be a part of that. So I have talked about it in other places and just wanted to share some thoughts

now about it. Whether tiger is in a gust of Georgia next week to me and the grand scheme of

things, it's not a question of he shouldn't be there. He should be there because one thing,

let's say, is a disclaimer because it's absolute truth is that the presumption of innocence for him

in terms of the court of law exists. He's entitled to it. It's his right. I don't know what's

going to transpire on the legal side of what is the aftermath of what happened just after 2 p.m.

local time. But what I'm here to tell you is that all the things that I've heard and it's plenty.

And a lot of it is it's appeals, whether it be, you know, not directly to him, but that's kind

of what it is by extension. There are appeals from people who love him to death and people who

have covered him his whole career. And people who have watched him do something for the game of

golf, you know, before they started this century that seemed unimaginable, taking it to places

that it hadn't been to before from in terms of its interest level to the mainstream sports fan

to cultural relevancy globally and all of that. And a lot of the appeals have been that how and

why? The how and why is something that you may never get the answer to how or why he found

himself climbing out of the passenger side of his automobile on Friday afternoon. The most important

thing is what now? What now? Because he has an episodic catalog going back to 2009 that's

beyond troubling. And nothing that I'm saying here is intended to be melodramatic or hyperbolic

on the contrary. Because what I'm going to share with you is just flat truth. Is it anybody?

Anybody? Doesn't matter what your academic background is. It doesn't matter your level of celebrity.

It doesn't matter your level of anonymity. Because whether it's dependency, addiction, alcoholism,

any of it, those things have one goal and one only. It's not your house. It's not your car.

It's not your family. It's not your kids. It's not your career. It's not your legacy. It wants your

life. That's it. And these diseases that it appears that he may be challenged by. Because like I

said, we know of four definitive episodes, four of them. And they are, they're troubling to see

they're sad. And that was the reflexive response by virtually everybody when they heard about this

on Friday, understandably. But the other part of this that I said Friday when I was asked to share

my thoughts was no surprise, none. And it's not because I have any knowledge whatsoever of his

behavior or his habits. I don't. But anybody who has a catalog of episodes like him not to mention

a choice whether it be voluntarily or not that he made to seek treatment, which he did and shared

with the public in July of 2017 after the May 2017 incident, a memorial day about intensive treatment.

When you pursue that or seek it and Lord willing, it's because you want to. And more on that in a

moment, dependency addiction, those things, they're not curable, but they're very treatable.

But if they're not treated, they hang around. They hang around. So whether you see somebody in the

workplace or on television, and the last time you saw them, by all accounts, all good. That day,

good, good. But it's just for today. It's a daily reprieve and it doesn't mean life has to be

white knuckling it. On the contrary, it doesn't have to be any of those things. But the idea that it's

a surprise don't be because there's very few people watching this or listening to this that hasn't

been touched by somebody who finds himself hurtling in that direction. And what you find is that

you are bewildered. You are frustrated. You're sad. You're scared. You're angry. All of those emotions

are sensible. But you're dealing with people who are challenged by their own sensibilities that

are not intact the way that they used to be. So what he's dealing with is something that is

cunning, baffling, and powerful. And here's the last thing. And here's the most wicked part of it.

It's patient. It just waits. It waits for you to neglect whatever treatment or daily program you

choose to apply to something that when you go to treatment, I can promise you it's not a graduate

program that you leave with a degree and some baseline of knowledge. It's a choice. It's a choice

to alter the way that you're deciding to live. And it's a choice you got to make every day.

Some days you treat it better than others. Present company included. And so when it comes to what now

for all the people, and I get this as well, and I've heard it a lot, somebody has got to step into

his life, who's already in his life, and say enough. And I understand that. I completely understand

it. But anybody, Tiger Woods included, who makes a choice to treat whatever it is that he's

challenged by currently, if he's doing it for anybody other than themselves, it's only temporary.

Because one of the many paradoxes of disease and addiction is that in order to have a chance

at all to win kind of in the game of life, you got to put your hand up and say, I surrender.

And I had a very prominent, prominent former professional athlete reach out to me yesterday.

And he too has been down this road. And he said to me, until there's surrender and acceptance,

there's no chance. And he's absolutely right. You got to give up in order to have a chance

to make life something that is full of hope with light. And with this sense that this thing

that can take total control of you, including the idea of people saying, why is he driving?

It's an understandable refrain completely. But you have to understand another part of what

these diseases do to you. You don't just pursue isolation. You're damn determined to find it.

And every facet of your life, so it's not surprising any of it. So whatever it is that we may see

in terms of his presence next week, it's not a declarative, oh good, or oh my, it's not that.

But this is not just something where you address it and then go, I'm good. There's no such thing as

that. None whatsoever. All right, we take a break and we continue. Amelia Durant is going to

join me because her broadcast and career is robust. There's very little she can't do,

including still playing the game at elite level. Hell, she was doing a winning interview

down at the landing on Skittaway Island Sunday for Davis Lamb by way of the University of Notre Dame,

who just won on the corn free tour. She's off to the Augusta National Women's Amateur. She'll call

the masters next week on masters radio. She joins me in studio and then the dog himself. He'll be

up early barking here about the things in the game of golf that he loves and that he is frustrated by.

So Christopher Mad Dog Russo, Alan Shipnuck, Shantill, McCabe in the next hour. Some thoughts on the

Valero as well. It's nice to have you with us. We are live on golf channel and also PGA tour radio

channel 92. It is series 6M 2 for Tuesday back with you right after this.

Back in on this Tuesday with you for two hours live on golf channel, course of first hour PGA tour

channel 92 on the series 6M. You see those images and you're going, wow, she's had a long career.

She's done a lot in a very short time. This segment brought to you by Peter Malar when it comes

to having options. It's not just in terms of what you do in your life, but where you go. So from

swim trunks to custom suits and everything in between, they are the premier luxury lifestyle brand

with all the retail stores and everything on their website at petermalar.com. Amelia Durand,

a one-in-a-national championship at Wake Forest. She has somebody who's played in a handful

of the Augusta national women's amateurs not to mention the U.S. women's am. And while she's

vanquishing opponents, she's then picking up a microphone. She did last summer at band-in-doons

and we were very proud to call her a contributor here at five clubs. Good morning, great to see you.

Good morning, Gary. It's great to be here.

But, you know, before we talk about all this stuff, I mention about the versatility and the

range that you have. And look, what happens this week is a life-changing experience, not just

for the winter. For all of these young women who have this great opportunity, David Slam,

when you do a winning interview, is it hard for you knowing how hard it is, the elusiveness of

winning when you're talking to somebody who's of your peer group. He's your vintage. And you're

looking at this gone. His life is changing as he's sharing his thoughts with me. What's that

like? The short answer, yes. It's hard to sit there when someone's just achieved the biggest

milestone of their career and not ask them, how do you feel? Because that's the one question

you're not supposed to ask. Right. I am as a broadcaster working. I need to be professional. I need

to be calculated. Okay, what were the big moments that happened for this person to achieve this

incredible win? And what should I ask first? And then, you know, you have some things in the back

of your mind, but based on where the interviewee takes it, you just have to go from there. So it's

so amazing, though. I love, love walking the grounds and being alongside these players. And just

seeing their emotion, their stress, the way they're focusing up close. And just to have the privilege

to get to share that and tell that to viewers is incredible. Well, I think you said something

that for people who may want to do, would you and I get the good fortune to do? Maybe the most

important trait that anybody who asks questions of athletes, you know, performers is to be a good

listener, because whether it's getting constructive analysis from the people that you work for,

you never know what someone's going to say that can take an interview far off the direction of

all this work that you prepared for, you'll use it another time. And that's important for anybody

who wants to do it. Augustine National, I mentioned the National Championship, US Women's Open,

US Amateurs. You've played in all the biggest events. What is it about that event? Whether it be the

first time or the last time you played in it that creates a level of adrenaline and not anxiety,

but anxiousness that is uncommon to the other events? Well, with the Augustine National

Women's Amateur, unlike the other events, you're not, and not everyone has a chance to qualify.

When you think about the NCAA championship, any Cinderella team can play well in regionals,

qualify into the NCAAs, and who knows what kind of run they go on. It's the same thing with the

US Women's Amateur. Anyone can sign up for qualifier and make it. For the Augustine National Women's Amateur,

yes, there are certain tournaments that you can win, but those are the biggest tournaments in the

world, like the US Women's Amateur or the Junior Matational at Sage Valley, but it's the top women

amateurs in the World Amateur Golf Ranking, so it's such a condensed field. There are leaderboards

everywhere, so if you make a birdie and you look at championed your treat, you might move up

three spots. If you make a bogey, you move down 10 to 15 spots. That's really where the stress

comes into play. In top 30 and ties, you don't think it's like not that many people to qualify,

but it just gets so tight, because it usually kind of ends up around even to two over, has kind of

been the cut line every so often, then you have the stress of getting the opportunity to compete on

Augustine National. The fact that everyone can play on Friday is really special, but as a competitor

and as some of the best competitors in the field, you want to play on that Saturday. Absolutely.

I think there is a correlation between the experience that you had and what these women are going

to get this week to the Ryder Cup in this respect. It's a very different week. You're going to

dinners. You're dressing up. You're getting unshuttle buses. The other big difference is that

your playing two golf courses, hopefully, you're going to get to playing both. You want to play

both in competition. How about managing energy? How about that part of the challenge of the week?

Managing energy is one of the most difficult parts, especially when it's your first time because

you're so overwhelmed. You walk into the hotel with player registration. You get all these beautiful

gift bags. You get professional hair and makeup done before your headshot. There's activities and

food trucks right on the first day. I would say the least stressful day is arriving Sunday night and

having that practice Monday afternoon. You have to have that morning. There's a lot of people

working out in the gym, but the shuttle from the hotel to championship treat is 45 minutes. Then

on Tuesday, for the chairman's dinner, the practice facilities close at three o'clock. Usually,

you don't have a ton of practice time unless you get one of the first T times. There's a lot of

things going on. I will say I have to give a huge shout out to Augusta National because on that

chairman's dinner, which is when some of these women see Augusta National for the first time,

it was the first time I saw Augusta, was the Augusta National Wednesday at the chairman's dinner.

You drive down Magnolia Lane in the shuttle buses, but I believe the time slot is from six to nine.

You're in bed by nine p.m. So they do such a good job at not only making it a truly special dinner

for the ladies, but they also recognize that these women want to go win a championship and they

don't want to be out until 10 o'clock. They need a sleep. So I just have always appreciated that

when I've competed. Yeah, and being efficient with time and understanding that at the end of the

day, there is a competition, which is the most important thing. You've played plenty of tournaments

where there has been more than one golf course that you have to prepare for. But in this case,

your only day to prepare if you qualify to play in that final round is the day before.

What was your approach before you played at the first time and what was it in the times after

that? Was it different? Well, I've really leaned on my caddy in the practice round. So I never had

an Augusta National caddy to be honest, if you really connect with your Augusta caddy, I would

recommend it. The year I played really well in 2021, I was hitting the ball great. So I didn't

necessarily need someone to say, okay, you have to land it here on a chip shop. But the next year when

I was missing more greens, I'm like, I have no idea what to do from behind the green on 14.

And so really relying on your caddy in the practice round, I had an incredible one in 2021.

He was telling me where all the whole locations were in 2019 and telling me where to put it.

And that was just super helpful. I would say, you know, the most transferable skill from

Championship Treat to Augusta National is being a good ball striker. You have to be accurate.

And then if you have the length, too, that's kind of the magic dust. Do you think about

Jennifer Cuppcho and Lottie Wode? They can both hit it a long way. So if you can be straight,

but go for it on the par-fives, which I didn't have the length to do. So then all of a sudden,

the wedge shots on 13 and 15 got a little more stressful. But it was just amazing to see these

women that can hit irons into both 13 and 15 to have the length to do that. You know, we just

showed that collage of photos, Amelia. And from, you know, the photo of you hitting a T-shirt on

the first T, to you hitting your T-shirt on on 12, walking over the Hogan Bridge, you putting

from the back of the 13th green, you right there by race Creek. Look, these, I can, I know where all

those places are. Do you remember those moments as somebody who is in competition? My experience of

playing the guy, I can remember them all because I could get lost in all of that. You can't do

that. Do you remember that walk over the bridge? I do. Yeah. I remember that I was so nervous and I

chunked it so bad that it actually thankfully got into the bunker and the front part of the

creek. So I was kind of walking over it like kind of quickly because I got to make sure this

lie is not like in the back of the bunker and I got a hard shot on 13. This was crazy. My husband

Charlie was catting for me. I hit my T-shot a little right. It hits the base of a tree, doesn't

get off the ground, ricochets all the way in to race Creek on the left side. And, and my husband

goes, you can't make this stuff up. So we vividly remember dropping on the, on the right side of

race Creek and just figuring out how to make par from there. But you really do get star struck.

And that's one thing that getting into a flow early in your round is so important. When I shot

to under par in 21, I birdied the first hole and just immediately kind of got into a rhythm.

The other two times it made the cut, it was a little bit more of a struggle. And then all

of a sudden you just become overwhelmed with the beauty of the golf course but also the difficulty

of it. So if you can get off to a quick start, I really feel that helps with the pressure of

competing on Augusta National. Plus you also have, you know, holes two and three that are, that are

good early opportunities. Let's talk a little bit about this field because as somebody who's

going to cover this, if I said to you, is there a favorite, would you declarative, declaratively

state a name or is it, is it a line up here and there's a handful of names that are on it?

So I would say there's a favorite in the sense that everyone wants to see what the number one

amateur in the world can do. Jennifer Cupcho was the number one amateur when she won,

Rosang, Lottie Wode, all of these players, seeing how they can rise to the top. Kia Ramero is

number one women player in the world right now. And she, it's her third time at the Augusta

Nationalman's Amateur. She was in the final group last year and didn't play well on Saturday.

She shot 74. She just earned her fifth collegiate win this spring. It feels like it's her time now.

She talks a lot about working on staying calm in the big moment. So now it's, it's the time for

her to be able to rise the occasion and play like the number one player she is. At the same time,

though, this field is so condensed, anyone could really win. I think about Asteris Tally, you've

finished runner up last year. As a 16 year old, she plays with more confidence than I've ever seen.

One of my favorite players in college golf right now is Farah O'Keefe. She's a top five ranked

Amateur in the world. She just earned her third collegiate win. She's playing with also a new level

of confidence. She's kind of been that player that's under the radar. She played well last year

at the Augusta Nationalman's Amateur. She finished top 10. But I just felt like no one's really

been talking about her until this year. And I'm excited to see what she does. She's one of those

players where you just watch her hit the ball and you hear the sound of the impact. You're like,

yeah, she's going to be really good. Yeah, you know, we just showed a little profile of Asteris Tally

who is achieving everything at her level and already kind of rising above her level. So to speak,

as we show you some of and you mentioned O'Keefe and we've got her among a collection of players that

will, you know, again, leaning on you when you when you look at these names, Megagana won the US

Women's Amateur. You covered the event out at Band-In-Dunes. She's playing in her sixth Augusta

National Women's Amateur and a high achiever, a drive chip and putt kid who, you know, could

could add this now title back at Augusta National. What about those five women just very quickly?

Yeah, I think about Paul Martin, St. Pedro and Marie Jose Marine. They're some of the most

accurate ball strikers in the college game right now and Aphrodite Daying won the girls junior

last year. She's also extremely consistent and seems to say extremely steady despite kind of

entering in all these big events for the first time. Elegoletski is one of the most powerful

players in college golf and like I mentioned, if you can have power with accuracy, you can play

really well and Megagana just plays with so much pizzazz and she's super confident on the big stage.

So let's look very quickly at five more names just a quick little capsule from you. You mentioned

O'Keefe and then let's just go through these players if you would. Yeah, Faro O'Keefe, she's a really

accurate ball striker. Same thing with Catherine Park. She's really finding her form and, you know,

played a Curtis Cup team. She has so much energy. Andrea Revuelta, she was actually injured last

year and her first event back was the Augusta National Women's Amateur played extremely well. We

talked about Astros Talley and Kiar Romero, who almost won the tournament last year and are

certainly favorites for this year. You know, I wonder because again, Megagana has experience

Anna Davis, you know, early on, not many do, but she was so precocious as far as her age.

Can inexperience be an advantage in any way? At some point, yes. You know, ignorance is bliss a little

bit when you think about the challenge of championed your treat. I mean, when Megagana first played

championed your treat, had some new green. So they were so firm and it also played longer. I feel

now the course set up. They've gotten better at just figuring that out, especially with wind and

whole locations and things like that. So there are times where you have scar tissue of things that

have happened, especially when you've had close calls to making the cut and you can't achieve it.

Megagana, though, winning the U.S. Amateur last year, I mean, it's just validation of all the work

that you've put in and something you've wanted for so long and achieving, she can really lean on

that this week. I heard you do an interview this weekend on Sirius 670 since I've never heard anybody

say, you're the only player who's played there in competition who declared their first hole your

favorite. Can you explain why? Because I actually think it's a very good lesson for people about

state of mind and mindset to begin a competitive round. Yeah, the first hole just is one that I

always think about. I mean, it's the most people you're going to see, unless you're in the final group

on 18, being able to watch your tee shot. It's the whole lead up the night before the nerves of

playing on Augusta National, the history of the honorary starters and hearing the traditional

foreplease, Amelia Durand, now driving. I mean, all of that, getting to see my mom who caddyed for me

in 21 in the white jumpsuit. I can't carry the bunker, so the the fairway is 10 yards wide. I

mean, I am thinking about that tee shot all night. I am practicing it for months in advance. I'm

having like two pulls at like a five yard width. I have to hit five drives in this so I can like

think about it. Condoleezza Rice and Anika Sorenstam are right behind me as I'm about to hit.

I mean, there are all these things happening and to be able to overcome that pressure but to

to live up to it to say I have worked for this moment and I'm going to fricking stripe it down

the middle is something that's so powerful to feel. I would say the other hole that is one of my

favorites is 15 because that tee shot is sneaky narrow and the only way you're getting down there

is if you go to the right center. I can't hit my woods and hybrids high off a downslope and that

second shot is off a downslope for me. So to see these women who are coming in with hybrids often

into that green elevate the ball and land it on such a skinny surface, I find so impressive.

Well, you know, now that Augustine National has provided their vault where you can find every

single shot of every player that's been broadcast since the late 60s. I was watching a forewood from

Tom Watson from 213 yards that he absolutely flushed. Shots that you see from a time gone by but

you make a good point. I have a wonderful couple of weeks. I look forward to being a teammate

with you next week. The team dinner is nothing better. Great seeing you. Yeah, you too Gary.

Thanks for having me on. All right, that is Amelia Durand. And again, she's a part on the TV

side this week golf channel and NBC for the Augustine National Women's Amateur. And then next week on

Master's Radio Channel 92 for the Master's Tournament. We continue with you on this Tuesday,

two hours for you on five clubs right after this.

Back in on this Tuesday, two hours for you, Alan Shipnug, Shantill, McCabe,

coming up in the next hour. And this segment brought you by Peter Malar, lucky enough to be

outfitted with the best lifestyle brand that there is. It's Peter Malar and Petermalar.com.

And I'm thinking about, you know, next week, it's like, I might just bring everything because it's

nice to not have to get on a plane when it comes to the Master's Tournament. 77, I-20, it's a

glorious thing. And when you walk into that merchandise with me, there's plenty of it there as well.

Again, Petermalar.com. All right, so I see him in the monitor getting settled. And the reason

why I had to riff just mildly is because he is more technologically deficient than I am. But

despite that, he's had one of the greatest careers in radio and television that we have seen.

He is the host of Mad Dog Unleashed, three to six Eastern Monday through Friday. And of course,

on first take on Wednesdays as well. Yesterday was Duke Connecticut pontificating for three long

hours this morning. It's all about golf. Here he is, my old boss, Christopher Mad Dog Rousseau.

Well, you went through her and make up this morning. Well done. Yeah, you know, I did brush my hair

and I put on my- You did? Boy, old Dornick sweatshirt. Nice. You know, these, you know, these,

was it ranked second in the world as far as golf courses are concerned? I played it on a cold day

and I finished well. Bad day, but I went par, par, bogey on 16, 17, and 18, won my match last June.

So that was fun. Stayed that beautiful little old hotel right across the street. So that was a

fun one. But yes, a lot of Connecticut basketball yesterday. Incredible loss for your little Duke

buddy, Mr. Shire. And from that standpoint, you know, we did that and now we're all good ready.

And we will. Looking forward to it. I read all the sports history and stories, which they wrote

in the last couple weeks. Jack from the, from the 86 year, because it's the anniversary. Yep.

And then the questions this year that SI did in the baseball issue last week. So I'm

wearing a go as far as Augusta goes. I tell you what, the six is, you know, even if you want to go

back to, to Jack in 66 Floyd in the 76, Jack in 86. It was obviously fouled on Norman 96.

A lot of good anniversaries. 06 was filled second. 16 was Danny Willett in the meltdown. Unfortunately

for spieth late in 2016. All right. For people who may not listen every day, I know how much of

an affinity you have for the game of golf. You love tennis. You talk about that. You're one of

the few people on a national level that really devotes real time to talking about golf.

Why did that start when you and Mike were doing your show? You'd go to tournaments.

You'd broadcast from big events. Why don't you guys do that?

Well, the one thing I would say, Gary, is when I was a young kid, I wasn't as wrapped up in the

golf scenario as I was with the other sports. So if you asked me to break down to 75 masters,

the great finish with Nicholas and Johnny Miller and kite and all those guys at 15 years old,

I don't even know if I watched it live. So I didn't grow up with the game. My father didn't play it.

My grandfather didn't play it. No siblings. So from that, I didn't really have an affinity for it.

It wasn't until a little later in my life where I saw the play a little bit. Number one,

and number two, I was got a partnership with my partner where I was into the golf mold. So

unlike baseball, football, where I can break down if Franco's catch or the A's beating the

Reds in the 72 World Series or the 69 maths, I can't do that per se with the golf. So it wasn't

until a little later where I got attached to it. And then as you said, Mike and I covered it

crazily, went to the open at the bath page and went to the open over there. It bought us

all. I mean, we covered it pretty good. Mike went to the masters one year with Nance and we were

all over that. So we were on top of it. And then when I got to serious, I got more into it, made

a couple of trips. You helped when I was 60, went to Scotland six years ago. And there I really read

the books. And you know, and at that point, I really got myself into it. So it hasn't been in the

last say 20 years where I lived it and breathed. And as I was into way, way back, golf, not so much.

But now, and a lot of it has to do with you because you're a golf guy and you work for our channel,

you came to sure haven't to play in a member guest yet. A great widget you just 72. You were great

that day. You know, that's where I've been totally involved in it. And I follow it on a day and day

out basis. As you know, the rider cup was there this past year went to Chinatown whenever it was

a Chinatown. I went five, six years ago, more than that before the pandemic seven or eight years ago.

So PGA at the, at the US Open in 19 at the, at Beth Page when Tiger the year after the two months

afternoon, the masters in 19. So I've been into a big time here. It's serious. And I'll be into it

here this week. I mean, you know, I went to the masters two years ago for the first time.

That helped too. But I'll be into it this week. And we'll cover it. We'll be on top of it. You

know that better than anybody. I'll do a whole by a whole deal Thursday and Friday for the most

parts. Sort of like I do with the mask. I do it the first round of the, of the NCAA tournament,

which I did last week. I'll be into that. And I get through a four-guest son and I'll do a lot of it.

The following Monday, last year, McElroy and Cairdus for a couple of days because of such a

dramatic event. And we got two, three days out of it. We had Gary Player on. So we'll be into it.

And you know, that's where golf, I think the older you get in golf, you appreciate it more.

You should begin to play more because, you know, you're, you're going to for this and be you have

more time and you're looking to do something athletically where you can't, you go out there and play

five on five basketball on Sunday mornings and you're looking to do something competitively and

golf kind of fits that bill. So I think the older you get the more into it, you get into.

And you mentioned the guest. Look, Freddie. A couple's, loves your show, loves you.

May not next week because he'll be playing in the event, but Rich Learner and Brando Shambly and

Frank Novelo and Billy Andrade. These people come on, give you 30 minutes and it's, it's, it's

terrific radio. You know, last year, I remember you saying about Sheffler, look, he's got two masters

and and he's obviously great and he's the most productive player weekend in week out. And you

also said, but I don't care about the TPCs. You're the only one who uses that term and makes me laugh

and cry simultaneously. I call it the players, but here's my point. Here we sit now a year later.

And it's not just the two masters. He's now got three of the four. He's gone from two to four.

And this year, he's got to win and even though, you know, his play of the last couple of weeks,

he's still in the top 25. What do you say about him now? Seriously, I wonder your view of him now.

Much changed. You're right. You know, winning those two last year was very, very important. And

obviously, you know, Val, Valhalla and then he goes out there and he basically wins start to finish

at the British Open. So he's got the four. So now you can't say anything. Now I'm not that wrapped

up on the slow starts that he's had in these opening rounds this year is since he won at Palm Springs.

I agree. I wouldn't, I mean, he's, he's going to be one of the favorites at the masters. I wouldn't

be surprised he doesn't win it. But, you know, putting two on top of the two that he had is very

significant. So I'm worth the idea that he's got to show you something and win something besides

the masters. Now that he has, we're okay. Well, listen, he's great. I mean, I was talking about

it from an old time. Sure. I'm sure. So I wrote that. Now again, the TPC thing, I can't, it's not

the fifth major. I, I prefer it being, I prefer the, I don't like the calendar right now. I like

the PJ in August. I've been on that. Yeah. And there's no D shampoo and there's no rhyme at the TPC,

which to me hurts the credibility. I mean, if you went out there and you won Wimbledon this year

and Sinner and Alcharez were in playing, it's not quite the same to be fair. It's not quite the same.

And I kind of feel the same way a little bit about the TPC. The golf season to me,

as a sports fan really begins with the masters next week. And I love what Woodling did.

I've been, you know, I love Justin Rose earlier in a year. I've watched every day. The kid did a

great job at the Genesis. You know, he won basically. He did a great job there on the last two days.

So I've followed it a week to week basis. But Gary, I think you agree. The average fan starts to watch.

No question. You can get the master. No question. It's, it's the golf renewal for people who can

take it or leave it, but, but invest during these four weeks. Rory, you mentioned about what he gave

you last, but last year, lot to rehash. How about him as a figure, as a sports figure? Do you find him

compelling? Yes, I do. He moves the needle. He's fun. He's good with the media. I know he's had

a couple of scenarios where he's blown the media off. You had so open air a couple of years ago.

And of course, two years ago at the Masters in the opening round, he's, he, I think that was the

one where he didn't, he didn't talk to the media. And that's upset a few people. But generally

speaking, he's very good to the media. He's fun to watch. And he's got a little only Palmer. And

I'm because, you know, he can go either way. You know, he can have his moments. The wedge last

year, as we know, with how he handled that on 13. He can have his moments where he, you know,

the back nine, that one year, a long time ago, where he can come up a little short. And he's fun

because he's not robotic. He can go either way, be as dramatic or it can fall apart like the rest

of us can. So I think that makes him more compelling. But what he did on the first plow of full

this year, Gary, after Rose hit that drive right down the middle on 18, a tournament that he had

to win. And he flushed his next drive as well as he did. And then Rose hits his second shot on

the green. And he's got to follow that that showed a lot after he fell apart on 18, Mr. Putt.

And then he came back on the next, you know, 20 minutes later and played the whole phenomenally.

That's, I mean, that's McElroy. And he's fun. And he's compelling. And he, and there's not

tiger as far as moving the needle to that extent. But I think he's the closest guy he got to move the

needle. Yeah, no, I think you're right. There's there is a Palmer element appeal. And also, you know,

he's got, he's got some real scar tissue. He's got moments that are gutting three years in a row.

The Open Championship 22 back to back. He was open to 23, 24. And then he crosses the line

at Augustine National. There, there's, no, it's very compelling. But I got to get, you mentioned

being at Augustine National is somebody who I know how much you love going to venues,

seen things for the first time. So you do Augustine National two years ago. You go to Wimbledon.

tennis. People know you love it. Let, let's show everybody your top sporting venues. And,

and, and it kind of quickly walk us through wide appeal of each. What is it about each of them that

got to you? Well, let's start from the five up. And then I'll explain a few I haven't been to

because you're going to say, well, where is the Derby? Where is the Indianapolis fight? You know,

where's Indy? There, there'd be a few here that I have not, you know, where is Cameron indoor?

Sure. Those kinds of things. Wigglyfield, Fenway, I like Wiggly better. Fenway, there's a lot of

seat scenarios at Fenway, which are not great. But it's the city ballpark built a hundred and

some out years ago, built on the block. You know, both are not in downtown, which you don't love.

Fenway is not really a downtown situation. Wiggly, they built Wigglyville. But

since the parks are so old, Fenway, open right after the Titanic, Wiggly right around the same time too,

I like Wiggly better, but I think those two ball parks are very, very important. Yankee Stadium

is a museum. It's not a ballpark. I would not put that in there. I love Dodger Stadium. I love

the newer ball parks too, but I'm looking from a historical standpoint. I got to put baseball in

there. I'll put those two at number five. South Bend, number four. I don't like the town,

but the environment of a football game in Notre Dame is phenomenal. The whole day,

yeah, and I've done that three or four times. That's as good as it gets. The stadium is great,

Newt Rockney. They've rebuilt, they've redone the stadium, so it's, you know, it's a little bit more

of a, uh, it's a little better, but I think you should be able to play the ballpark. Yep,

that's it. Yeah, I mean, it still has it though. And I was there at 93 when Notre Dame played Florida

State, so I saw the old one. Uh, and this one, I've been there four or five times since my

daughter went to Notre Dame. So from that standpoint, I, I, I think going there now I have not been to

Tuscaloosa. I have not been to Ole Miss. Uh, I've been to the Rose Bowl. Uh, you know, I've been

to, I've been to Michigan, but, but I will, but I haven't been Ohio State, but I'll put Notre Dame

in number four. Lambo, number three. Uh, I, I think when you think of football and the NFL,

I think you got to put Lambo there. Um, you know, the town, which is so important. It's so small.

Uh, I've been there with the old Lambo, and then I was there at the new Lambo. We never,

they've done a lot of work on it. Yes. Museum and everything else. But I will put Lambo,

number three, the Packers, Lambo, um, I was there when a Giants beat him in 07 when it was minus two

degrees. Uh, I took my kids there. So I got a good feel of Lambo, and that is, to me, uh, that is

number three. Augusto, number two, you can flip it with Wemblebin. It's really where you want to go.

I have, I've been to Chinatown. Um, I have, I've been to the US Open in tennis. I have not been

to the French Open. I have not been to the Australian Open. Uh, I have been to St Andrews. Uh, I

have been to all the great, I, I haven't been to St Andrews to see the event, but I played it twice.

So I mean, I have a little historical knowledge with the golf, but I will, I've been to Pebble Beach,

but I will put, and you can flip them. Uh, I don't have any problem with it. Wemblebin's type.

I think people don't realize that Wemblebin is tight. It's a small venue. It's not as spread out

as you, as you be, be surprised. I mean, you got a really maneuver. US Open in, in tennis is

really spread out. Wemblebin isn't, and you know, Augusto is tremendous. I think the advantage

of the Augustus, if you've been there time and time again, you know all the ins and outs,

and I think that's a big help. You know, where to go, what hold a hang out on, but the environment

of Augusta, I thought that looking from the fairway down 15 where you always, you can still see

16 and you can see the 15th hole. That is phenomenal. Yes. Can't get close to 12. No, which is great.

It's like, it's like a Broadway stage. You're the audience actors are on the stage. Unlike your

show, we can't stack breaks. Uh, so we, we, you run us up against one. Listen, thank you. I

look forward to hopefully seeing you soon. US Open. I hope. Thank you. Best of Genie. Thank

you for getting us on the air, Genie. You got to choose important. You're the best, Gary.

Okay, better than you. All right. That is Christopher Mad Dogru, so his show right here on

Series XM channel 82. We're back right after this.

Back on five clubs this December brought to you by Century Insurance. Our presenting sponsor,

they do business insurance, evaluate yours with them. They want to be right by you.

It is Century Insurance. We got another hour live here for you on golf channel, Alan Shipnuck,

his new book, Rory, which I completed last night, Chantel McCabe. She got her own program on

Series XM on Wednesday evenings on PGA tour radio. She will be hosting the final round of the

Augusta National Women's Amateur. Uh, Russo is, he's, he's one of one, man. Uh, if you miss Christopher,

when we started down his list of his top sporting venues and he dropped anchor on Fenway and

Riggly, I said, we're going to be here a while. He's probably going to jam us up in every possible

way as far as commercial breaks. But I will just share with you, uh, when I went to work for

Series XM on Mad Dog radio as the first morning host on his channel. I remember speaking with him

on the phone for the first time, I was sitting in my dining room, uh, in Charlotte, North Carolina,

where I reside again, uh, and went up there and did like a three hour kind of audition.

Well, I'm getting the job and, and the truth is is that I wouldn't be sitting here by way of 10

years hosting Morning Drive on Golf Channel. If I didn't work for him on for Mad Dog radio because

the man who hired me at Golf Channel, Thompson Thakus, um, was able to listen to my radio show.

For two months before he made the decision to hire me at Golf Channel, he told me,

one of the primary reasons that, that you got this job is because I listen to you every day.

Um, you never know what, what the previous step is going to have on, on the next step.

Uh, and even though I was talking about everything, uh, at that particular time, I was doing all

sports, uh, it didn't matter. Uh, I was able to narrow my focus as something that I obviously loved

because of my life and my background around the game of golf. But, but Chris Russo hiring me is the

reason why, uh, the, the next 17 years have been what they've been. All right, when we continue,

Alan Shipnuck, uh, tremendous writers, one countless awards. He's, he's written over, you know,

10 books and the latest is Rory, uh, about the career, the life of somebody who is as compelling as

anybody in the sports channel, McCabe as well. Live on a Tuesday here on Golf Channel,

back with you on five clubs right after this.

Good morning and welcome in. This is five Colbs on Golf Channel.

You are, uh, a vital part of our game. Thank you for having me on.

All the way to the greeting.

I've always wanted to be on five clubs. Thanks, Gary.

Back in. Yes, back in two for Tuesday, two hours for you. Live on Golf Channel. It's great

to have you with us here. Uh, and a reminder next week, two hours on Monday leading into, uh,

glorious week, not only the master's tournament, but live from one of the best, uh, sports properties

analyzing any sport. And in this case, it is the game of golf. I'm Gary Williams in this

program, this hour, whatever hour wherever we are here, Augusta, Georgia, you name it.

Always going to be presented by century insurance. We appreciate so much, not only what they do

for us, but, uh, their choice, uh, to invest in golf from the first tea to the USGA, to the PGA

tour, but their business is business insurance. If you need yours evaluated, do it with them

at century insurance. In a couple of minutes, Alan Shipnock. I'll see him next week.

He's covered countless master's tournaments, not to mention major championships.

And he's got a new book that will be released on April 7th. I finished it last night.

And there are things in the book about Rory, which is, uh, appropriately the title, uh, that

didn't surprise me, you know, on the things that mildly did, I came away thinking what I think

about most, uh, biographies. Uh, and, and in this particular case, Rory was not a participant

in this exercise, uh, but, but there are a lot of things in terms of, uh, quotes and, and he's

had countless conversations with Alan, uh, through, through the years, uh, but, but think anybody

who has an interest in him will thoroughly enjoy it. Uh, as we'll talk about that with him,

and then a little bit later on in this hour, Shantelle McCabe. He's got her own show on Sirius

XM's PGA tour radio, uh, who has covered every facet of men's and women's golf, and she'll be

hosting the Augusta National Women's Amateur, uh, this Saturday final round on, on, on PGA tour radio

channel 92. Uh, do appreciate Christopher Mad Dog Russo, Amelia Durand, as a contributor here,

Amelia is, uh, she is headed to Augusta. You'll see a lot and hear a lot of her this week on the

TV side and the next week on the radio side. This week for the PGA towards the final opportunity,

the final potential golden ticket, uh, for a player who is not already exempt into the first major

of the year, uh, to get what will be a whirlwind, uh, express from San Antonio, Texas, that though,

I, I, you know, if there is any story that I would root for in particular, being probably somebody

who is not in the master's field to win, because I love hearing the aftermath and, and, and get the

rental house and, uh, and get in the private jet and waking up Monday morning all of a sudden,

you're going, oh my god, uh, I'm in the master's field and what's your registration number? I know

you won't be last, uh, but that, that, that, that is also part of it like the cover rolls worn, uh,

by the caddies. And when you see that number, if you're unfamiliar with that number, uh, is applied to,

that's the registration number. One, uh, reserve for the past champion. So if there is somebody, uh,

who is not already in the master's field and the 24 that are in it,

Kalamore Kalah is returning from the injury that took him out of the players championship and

he was a guy who had as good a form as anybody. Uh, and now he returns. He's going to play this

week. Tommy Fleetwood is in the field as well. There are other, uh, very, very good players that

you would consider to be guys you would consider, uh, to possibly winning the master's tournament.

Ludwig Oberg, there's no reason to beg off of him. Uh, if you like to his chances, he's played in

two and two master's tournaments and he's gotten himself in the mix in both occasions. And yes,

what transpired in that final round at the players championship may cause you pause. Uh, his, his

first little layer of scar tissue. I wouldn't be begging off of him. Uh, he's got the tool kit. Uh,

and if things got fast with him and Michael Torbjornson, who were the guys in that final group,

it's a good field. It's a golf course that the, the rough is up about an inch apparently. Uh,

plus they got some places you don't want to venture into. They're critters in San Antonio.

I mean real ones. Uh, so ask Kevin Nah, uh, who put together a Joe Montana, uh, back in the day,

down there at the Oaks course, good field golf course that, uh, again, you get sideways. Uh, your

scorecard will get sideways. Uh, and if the wind blows a final round of 75 can produce a winner

as it did last year with Brian Harmon. So that is the last event before we embark on master's week.

I'll see him next week. Uh, but I enjoyed his work over the last week because I've been,

I've been reading it. His newest book, Rory Allen Shipnock will join me when we continue with you

live here on a Tuesday on golf channel right out to this.

Back in on five clubs live on a Tuesday, two hours for us today, uh, two next Monday from Augusta,

Georgia. Uh, and this segment is brought to you by Century Insurance. Business insurance is

their business, evaluate yours with them. They want to be right by you kind enough to get at my,

you know, he's at the place, uh, that I consider to be the most idealic place, uh, this country has

to offer Carmel, California. It is home. Uh, he is the varsity basketball coach, uh, the girls team,

uh, Carmel high. I don't know what his winning percentage is. He's done well though in the book

department. His newest book is Rory. He is Allen Shipnock. My friend, good morning. Uh, I like the

appearance, uh, your Darth Vader. How you feeling? Well, I became a sports writer so I could

sleep in. This is a measure of my esteem for you, Gary, that, that I got out of bed for this.

Well, thank you. I, you know, I've read so many of, of, of your books and they're all,

that they all teach me something. I always learned something. And generally, I find that, that, that the

subjects seem to be more endearing to me. We'll get to that with you in a little bit, but I,

I want to start with why now? This is somebody who's got, he's got breath. You would think,

left, uh, in the productive lives of, of what compelled you to write about him. And that is the

game of golf. Why choose to do it now with Rory? I, there's a chance this will be the last golf

biography ever written, you know, I say that a little hyperbalky, but, uh, you know, all the old

timers have been done, the Nicholas, the Palmer's, the Hogan's. Uh, there's a new Tiger book every

year. Obviously, Phil Mickelson has been retired as a subject, but when you think about the generation

behind Rory, I'm not sure who can carry a book. And, um, I've, I've been tracking Rory his whole

career. I mean, not to spoil anything, but the book begins around a private jet flying across

China, um, years ago. And I, I think, you know, four years ago, Rory was probably universally

beloved. I think he's become more polarizing into his thirties, especially with the arrival of

live golf. And as I was working on my last book, live and let die, you know, Rory just became a

bigger, bigger figure in my mind. And I, you know, I started working on this in the spring of 2024.

I had a hunch that something big was going to happen in his career. Um, even I could not have come

up with a scenario like the final round of last year's masters, but I just always feel like it's

better bring a book out a little too soon, that a little too late. And it worked out perfectly

because, you know, in my mind, the master's kind of drops the curtain on the second act of

Rory's career. And, and it's fun to look back. And, um, it's kind of tantalizing to look forward.

So it turned out to be the perfect time, but it did take a little luck.

You know, Alan, but prodigies, I think share some things. And, and one of them, most importantly,

is this innate ability to do whatever it is that they do. He was one. Uh, and there are others in

the sport that you cover that are, does he have, uh, common maladies with the aforementioned

tiger and fill? And what was the imposition of earlier that maybe they weren't?

Well, I think, I think it's obsession is the difference because no one is born knowing how to

hit a golf ball. You might be given certain tools from your parents and hand-eye coordination

and, and your musketeer and things like that. And Rory came from athletic family,

you know, everyone knows his dad is a good golfer. But actually, Jerry's brother held the course

record at Hollywood golf club there outside of Belfast. And, uh, on Rory's mom's side, there's

some terrific athletes, you know, an uncle. It was a, was a very good gay, like football player and

things like that. So certainly he was given some tools. But, um, it just came down to, he just

was obsessed with the game from the first time he saw it sitting in, in, in, in, you know, a

pram as they call it over there, watching his dad hit golf balls. And he just wanted to do it,

and he never stopped. And, and, um, you know, it's the same story of, of the young tiger woods,

the same story of the young Phil Mickelson. They just chased it harder than anybody as kids,

and they developed the skill set, then they had the success and that, that pushed them forward.

But, um, the difference between Rory and those two characters is that he's remained a whole

person in the words of Nick Faldo. Um, you know, he comes from this famously working class

background. And Rory's just carried with him this, this gratitude for the life he's leading,

and he's just kept his feet on the ground in a way that, that neither could. And it's really

incredible that you look at Tiger and Phil and their, their lives have been, you know,

sidetracked by addiction and by scandal and by controversy. And Rory's had a little bit of,

of controversy along the way, just enough to make him interesting for a biographer and a reader.

But in the final analysis, he's, he's been able to, to remain a relatively normal person. And that,

that's probably the hardest thing of all with the superstar and, and, and the fame and the wealth.

And so that's really the, the defining difference between him and, and, you know, the,

the players he looked up to is, is they lost their way and, and, and, and Rory's, Rory's just kind of

kept going as, as this kid from, from Hollywood and Northern Ireland. And that's part of what makes

him so admirable and, and probably easy to root for. You know, Alan, you, you, you mentioned,

you know, the idea of being normal and normalcy. And I, I, I certainly agree with you,

you know, in the interludes that I've had with him from the first one. I thought that he had an

uncommon trade among people who, who were in a position of entitlement, which was, he was a good

listener, which, which I think is an unselfish trait, if you choose to genuinely listen to other

people. But you use a term in your book that I think he's been challenged by. But somehow,

some ways managed to get back to this word centered, kind of take people through some of the,

some of the chapters in his life that have challenged his ability to be centered. And what do you

think is, been able to get him back to that place, which is so important to him, which is where he's

most comfortable? Yeah, he really used that word in the context of his relationship with

Caroline Wozniaki. And, you know, they met, they were both 21, 22, they were number one in the

world, her antennas, of course. And, you know, Rory thought that was the secret is you find,

find one of the rare people on the planet who could relate to your situation. And, you know,

their pillow talk made sense. It was about how, about achieving your dreams and managing all the

challenges of being number one. And there's, there's very few people who could relate to Rory at that

age. And, but what he found was he lost that center of who he was and, and what made him happy.

And he was going from her tournaments to his tournaments to corporate outings, never getting home,

never connecting with his roots, never being in the real world. He was always in these bubbles of

privilege. And that was when he started playing. So it was the worst call of his life. And, of course,

as soon as he ended that engagement, he, a couple days later, he comes back. He, from seven shots

on Sunday, he wins the BMW PGA, you know, the flagship event of the European tour. He goes on

an all-time historic run of fur and that really launches his career. And so there was very much

a straight line with him going back to a simpler life and, and finding that center and playing

some of his best golf. So he, you know, Rory likes to fight our things in life. He has the,

the mansions, the jets, the watches. But deep down, I think what makes him happiest is being,

being with his friends from home, being with his parents. And, and just kind of staying in touch

with the person he used to be before, before the stardom. And so, you know, and, and he said,

when, when he met his current wife, Erica, you know, she was working for the PGA of America.

It's kind of a bureaucrat. She lived in a little condo and he was attracted to the normalcy.

And so, I think he's always trying to maintain the sense of who he was. And it's sort of fundamental

to how we handle stardom. The, you use the word in, in petuousness, that that has been kind of a

defining characteristic, whether it be golf course, whether it be romance, whether it be business.

And, and, and I also would add this. And again, I, I'm guilty of this, you know, petulence and moments

of righteousness that can be looked upon as being righteous or petulant or both. And that means

like evolving opinions from how he felt about the Olympics from the outset. And you talk about

that. And I think that people who don't understand why he felt the way that he felt until he got into

this pragmatic space of why he made the choice to eventually participate. But his feelings about

live, just feelings about the writer cup, evolving points of view. And it's not necessarily changing

opinion. It's maybe a better informed opinion, a more well-rounded opinion. Is that part of all of

this, this in petuousness? And maybe an element of peaches being petulant as well.

One of the things that's appealing about Rory is he speaks his mind and we went through decades of

Tiger Woods press conferences that were just word salads in which he said nothing.

And, and so it's refreshing that Rory has an opinion about everything. He's happy to share it. And

it's, it's, it's articulate and it's often passionate. And he speaks from the heart.

Now, sometimes he does change his mind and walk things back. And he'll get criticized for that,

you know, as a flip flopper. You know, that was a big put down in an old presidential campaign. You

know that in modern life, especially in modern political life, you're not allowed to change your

mind. Like, you have to, you have to find, you have to express an opinion and defend it to the

death, showing weakness. And, you know, Rory will take in new information. He'll think about it.

And he'll say, you know what, I was wrong. Or, you know what, I've changed my mind. And to me,

that's admirable. Like, that shows an open mind. It shows a certain intelligence, certain intellectual

flexibility. Like, I think those are good traits. But these days, when you do it, it's, you know,

it's held against you. And so I give Rory credit that he, there's been many times or he has not

dug in and refused to acknowledge the reality. He said, yeah, I was wrong. And I think that it would

be a much more pleasant society if all of us showed that willingness to admit that and to,

and it takes a little humility. So I give him a lot of credit, even though there's folks on

golf Twitter who, you know, will hold that against him. But, you know, again, I think it's a winning

trait. You know, you mentioned, there are a few moments in the book when you talk about things

that we're not, you know, huge. But you're pointing out certain aspects of certain seasons.

I happen to be at the Grand Slam of Golf in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. And of course, through those

four years, he's a participant there. And I remember asking him in 2014 in October of that year,

do you think he was truthful as you were three years ago? And he said, probably not. And,

and I actually thought that was truthful. But Alan, my point is I actually think he's gone from

whatever governor that he might have had when he was trying to figure out whether it was

brand or whether it's worth it. To now, I think like to your point, there's an unvarnished

element to him that has value that some people may disagree, but don't disagree that it doesn't

have value. I think that he is no governor now. Would you share that?

Yes. And on and off the golf course, it goes back to your question, you know, why write about

Rory? Obviously, he's fun to watch play the game. You know, there's a flair, there's a heroism to

the way he plays. There's a recklessness and it's compelling. But it's the way he's lived his

life in general. Yeah, governor is a good word because you know, Rory talked about during this

long follow period where he didn't win a major championship that there's this the self-protection

and mechanism that he felt. And you know, Bob Rutella, who I interviewed for the book, you know,

has been Rory's sports psychologist since 2010. You know, he said the price of greatness is you

have to be willing to get a rip to shreds. That if you just kind of hang around and try to make

the cut or try and eat out a, you know, top 10 finish, you're not going to get your heart broken in

the same way as if you're trying to win and you're trying to make history. And I think there was a

period there where Rory backed off a little bit because it hurt too much and he didn't want to

suffer that pain. And he recognized that and part of what finally got him the green jacket is that

he just became willing to go through that. And he he was willing to suffer to achieve his dreams.

And and he also see that in the press room where he he's just he's just willing to say what

needs to be said. Even then he knows it will take some arrows for it, but he's unbothered. And that

was obviously quite evident during the the sort of battle for the soul of golf between between

live and the PGA tour where Rory emerged in many people's mind as a spokesman for the entire sport.

And he took a lot of shrapnel. There's no doubt he probably lost a few fans, but in his mind he

had to say what needed to be said and it was worth it. I do not think and very few are I do not

think he's predatory. But one of the things that you point out in the book particularly kind of

the latter stages when he goes on the flyer in 2014 and why I think he's he's so well built for

the rider cup. I think he has empathy embedded in him. But if you poke him, he's not afraid to bully

up. And I thought he did that at Valhalla. You point out the episode where he thought that Ricky

and Phil were being too chummy and he needed that. He needed to witness that. And he talks about

and he is quoted in your book talking about look, you know, being that way is not something I'm

inclined to be. But if there are if there are ways for you and I think Bryson did that to him. I

think it served him well to have friction in that environment at Augusta National. Do you

think the bully is something that has to be pulled out of him? Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

There's different kinds of competitors. There's some guys who want to win and there's some who want

to beat you. And it's a different personality trait. Obviously Tiger wanted to beat you. He

wanted to humiliate you like he wanted to rip your heart out to use, you know, Tita Woods's

phrasing. I think Rory just kind of wanted to win but he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings

early in his career and he's talked about that. And he said I almost thought it was it was a bad

thing to beat a guy on the last green because you'd make him feel bad and it's an admirable trait

as a human but it hurts you as a competitor. And he had to grow into this sort of alpha role

where you could you could still you could still be show class and sportsmanship but it was okay

to stop on a guy's dreams. And I think there's been periods where maybe Rory's lost that a little

bit. But as you said something about Bryce and definitely activates that which is a good thing

it's part of makes a rivalry fun. You know there is a little tension. There is there is a little

edge. You need that. You know Tiger versus Phil had that Tiger versus BJ had that

those those rivalries are fun. And so I think that's part of the balancing act that Rory is always

he kind of wants to be everything to everyone sometimes but on the golf course it's okay to be

ruthless. And I think when you remember that that's when you play some of his best golf so

hopefully Bryson or someone else will poke the bear and we'll see that side of Rory because it's

fun to watch. It is I don't think this will be a season on the brink type of dynamic between

Feinstein and Bobby Knight. But but you know your relationship with him you mentioned look you've

had you've had ample personal time. I'll never forget when he when he couldn't wait to find you

at Glenn Eagles and the post script of the 2014 Ryder Cup that to me that's that to me exemplifies

somebody valuing somebody's opinion not just merely dismissing it. If there's anything in this

book and he's a curious lot as you know I don't know how he's not going to not want to read this.

Do you think there's anything that will particularly urge him?

Well you know there Rory's had two big you know blow-ups in his business life and those

are well-documented and he's probably not going to be thrilled about that. Of course there's

there's the break up with the woes Niaqi and he's probably wishes that would just go away but it

soger main to his playing career as we talked about and of course there's the marital drama where

you know he files for divorce from Erica it becomes very public some old rumors get spilled into

the mainstream press they reconcile I mean that that has to be told because it's it's it played out

so publicly and in fact it was it was a subtext to the entire Ryder Cup where you know Rory was

everyone knows that the fan behavior crossed the line and a lot of things were written about

the fans of Beth Page but it was sort of in code and it was not you know oh they're personal attacks

but for whatever reason I didn't see anywhere and I read extensively where people actually

wrote about what was said and what happened and a lot of the abuse was about toward Rory was

about his marriage was about Erica and so you have to understand that context of why why

was Rory flipping off the crowd why do you see so fiery it wasn't because people are yelling

hey Rory you suck and that that happens at a Ryder Cup it was much different and so

but I think you know again this this all played out in such public arenas as a

bographer it would have been a dereliction of duty for me not to write about it so of course you

probably wishes that that wouldn't be in the book but I can't edit these things out of his life

they happened and to to write a clear-eyed honest biography you have to put everything in it the

good and the bad and in Rory's case he does not have Phil Michelson's demons he there's not the

earthquakes in this book is that one and I'm sure some fans might be disappointed about that but

the fact is it's it's been more of a life well-lived for Rory so I think it's a feel good portrait I

think that that ultimately he will appreciate that and I will tell you you know there's there's

some spicy stuff in the first chapter that gets into this confrontation that Rory and I had in

at Oakmont oh yes and it's very spicy so I wrote about all that at Pebble Beach you know when

they were playing in my backyard I gave Sean O'Flaherty a couple copies of the book he's Rory's

you know career-long manager basically and that afternoon Rory came into the press room he thanked me

very publicly in front of the press corps and it turned out officials and I felt like that was kind

of a public peace offering after what happened at Oakmont but then Sunday night when I was walking

to my car after I'd filed my story and the place was cleared out it was dark and drizzly and Rory

and his caddy Harry Diamond were walking toward the tap room to get some food and drink and we bumped

into each other and I made a joke of all the people you're going to run to on a dark rainy night

in Pebble Beach it had to be me and he laughed and he said I read the first chapter it was good it made

me laugh and so if he wasn't bothered by what was in that chapter I think Rory and I are in a good

place but in the final analysis I didn't really care like I didn't write the book for him I mean I

write it for the fans like that's the relationship that means the most to me and you know people

appreciate the Michelson biography because it presented him in full and it was I celebrated the

philanthropy and the random acts of kindness and but I was also you know very honest about his

flaws and his vices and his addictions and and I leave it up to the reader to decide what they think

and so you know Rory is not my target audience it's the it's the fan at home who follows

golf and wants to feel closer to it and wants to understand what makes this guy tick and this

journey he's been on but I I'm pleased that he likes it but again it's I care more about what

the everyday fan thinks well that's me and it is very good as always not surprising look life

ain't a clean sheet he's not not any less endearing or appealing to me than he was before I open

the book because there's a lot of great stuff in here thank you for getting up early I look

forward to seeing you next week all right Gary thanks for having me you bet Alan Shipnuck again

the new book Rory just that those are winning words presented by century insurance they do

business insurance evaluate yours with them coming up next shantel macaque her show Wednesday

nights here on pj tour radio channel 92 she'll be hosting the final round of the Augusta

National Women's Amateur her thoughts on this assignment when we continue right up to this

welcome back into five clubs live here on golf channel two hours show this Tuesday reminder

next Monday from Augusta Georgia two hours eight to ten to begin master's week this seven

and brought you by Peter Mallard the luxury lifestyle brand for whatever you need you can go

to Peter Mallard.com or any of their retail stores as well you know it always seems like whatever

the season the weight is always perfect of every single item all right join me now she stylish

she's also righteous I know from many evenings in the newsroom at golf channel she is the host

of all square on series like a xm's pj tour radio she will host the final round of the

Augusta National Women's Amateur she is shantel macaque good morning how you doing

gracious I was not expecting that but only you would use a word of that nature

this is very very awesome to be part of the show we had a lot of mornings together and some

lung in late evenings for golf central but I have to know I want to take a public poll my son

who's a year and a half loves the jingle going back to your very first show last year even when he

was still anybody and wrapped in blankets he would bob his head so I don't know if this is unique

to my son but kudos to your cousin for writing a catchy jingle and that has certainly resonated

in our households you're very kind and it is it's it's you know my cousins of you know he is an

award-winning composer out there in hollywood and has won lots of stuff and I said I want a variety

show kind of jingle and not everybody loves it I get it night long everybody loves everything

yeah there look I mean come on I need video of your son bob into the jingle we will give him

some shine on this show that's awesome you know as somebody who you know knowing you in the way

that when you get an assignment you dig in and really peel it back this is different from the

Cordford tour finals or the Epson tour or or mining those stories on the LPGA what is the

aspect of covering this event that you enjoy so much well I would argue that it's actually very

similar because no matter what assignment any of us get assigned to I think that this is the

Super Bowl or whatever given moment that it might be for whatever that person is whether

it's a on swing five last week and you're trying to get inside to play in the next signature event

or I think all the way back to I mean the first winery had at the Augusta National Women's Amateur

being a part of the moments before the big moment so to speak so I was greatfully on site at

the NCAA championship in 2017 where unfortunately for Jennifer Cup Show she lost by a stroke after

maintaining the lead and wow I got to be there we were I was experiencing her crying in the

interview because those moments we don't see as much recover as much because in golf we're so

and rightfully so concerned about the winner but to be there a part of a moment where the collapse

happened and then to give proper perspective to when she goes on to win the first Augusta National

Women's Amateur those those things can't be reproduced you can read about them in notes that the

media prepares for you but there's there's only certain things you can live through and truly

appreciate so whether that be corn fairy tour championship 2018 back at Atlantic Beach where

Denny McCarthy won there and to to know some of these players and see and experience those moments

with them before they go on to a global stage that's why paying a respect so to speak and

properly preparing for each and every moment bigger small and the grand grand landscape of things

is so important. You know you should tell the you mentioned the women's NCAAs and I'm curious

your view of of what correlation if any do does one thing have to the other and and connect the

Augusta National Women's Amateur any way you want it whether it be the platform in the stage for

boys and girls in drive chip and putt the NCAA women's you know championship and the men's and

and the you know the place that they have on television and it's a very prominent place in the

network of record in the game you you look at these rotas for all these championship US women's

open US women's Amateur Curtis Cup and then this event that you will host what is all of it having

common with the growth of participation in women in the game now driving it all going in this direction.

Well I'm going to give it two par answer because I think the Amateur side of things which

I certainly fall into that category I never played golf at an elite level I'm I'm very much a

journalist and storyteller and so I'm not going to break down swing analysis but when it comes to

the platform and how women's golf and how golf in general is being elevated we're seeing more

live shots I think that's really important because everybody's competing for the attention

of everyone out there whether that be Quirren Hole or whether that be Pickleball all of these

leagues and entities are competing for as Brian Rolab illustrated not just your eyeballs your attention

but certainly sponsorship dollars as well and money dictates resources so when you weave all of

that together obviously it's very significant to have the women play at what is an iconic

and irreplaceable stage that being gust of national so having that for now six editions coming

up on the seventh is very powerful and it has a global reach a truly global reach that's what I

think is one of the most beautiful things about Augusta National and their intention behind that

but when it comes to all of these things together and women's golf specifically on the professional

stage I'm not sure if it if it's drawing more players in because you think of a collegiate wise

polycreme or both of the courtesisters Yojukim, just one once again a lot of LPGA players are not

going to college so I don't know if there's any tie-in in terms of that aspect of it but

being able to compete on some of these bigger stages and specifically for the women coming up

they're going to be playing Riviera this year the venues are very significant in terms of the

professional side now in terms of the amateur side and why that's growing the culture I think

is really important I am a victim of thinking for a long time okay when it comes to golf that is

kind of a stereotype and in many ways rightfully so but that kind of comes with where you

remember what's your handicap golf is now no longer as much of an identity but more of at least

at the amateur level and for people who play in a more casual spirit like I do it's fallen into

the silo of a hobby like I don't need to keep score and I know that a lot of people watching

for the most part are playing multiple times a month if not multiple times a week because

we're all golf nuts in some way shape or form but when it comes to playing especially for women

most of us don't have nasa games happening most of us are just happy to be out on the golf course

and get four hours to ourselves so I think that the culture has changed where it's welcoming in the

nature that you do not have to write down a score and it's perfectly fine it can be as much of a

hobby and activity as yoga is for you or like fishing is for me that's currently what I'm doing

more than anything else so I love that that part of the culture has changed obviously more than

anything pace of play but to kind of combine a few different things into one I think that's why the

growth of the women's game specifically has happened in different directions if I gave you

I gave you five slots and you had to choose a winner had it come from the five players can you

comfortably give me five you go yeah I'm pretty I'm pretty certain one of these five is going to

win the Augusta national women's amateur no Gary and shame on you because the reason why we love

golf is that some of these unexpected stories happen I mean what happened last week with Gary

Woodland was just so beautiful obviously maintaining and hanging onto that 54 whole lead was

exceptional but we love these ridiculous stories that come out of nowhere that is a beauty and

luxury that we have engulfed that and in the spirit of merch madness we should not be trying to go

with the top dog but having said that we do have all top 20 of the best ranked amateur players

in the world coming up on this stage but who knows who even makes the cut I mean obviously there

will be a lot of attention on Astrox Talley who is not using Miles Russell as her caddy after all

because of his good play on the cord very tour so the runner up last year you always wonder how

they can back that up and what things they learned I mean the entire Stanford women's golf team

is gonna be here so you can't count any of them out with the the great leader they have at the

helm for coaching I certainly would have to go to Chiara Romero because what she is doing as

the number one ranked amateur and you don't want to put all that stress on her and by the way

in the previous six editions we have had only two players who have currently been at the number one

position have gone on to win so did anybody expect Anna Davis with her bucket hat to be right

a guest in national women's amateur winner so it's been half and half you just never know where

these things will come from but Chiara is one two of her last three starts and that start in between

she had to WD because of illness so I really love the composure she plays with on the golf course

if nothing else I don't want to put a target on her back but I just want to see how she handles

the moment and we also have the defending runner or defending winner from last year's NCAA

individual play not being Rhea Jose Marin and so she's been doing nothing but top tenning

she rose the occasion in a big moment how will she rise to the moment come this Saturday at a

guest in national you repelling away from my appeal in the manner which you did makes me miss

the production meetings for golf central it was right on cue it was perfect thank you I look

forward to doing this again of course shantel show Wednesday nights on pj tour radio all square

look forward to seeing you down there thank you I always got to give you a hard time thanks for

having me Gary of course she is shantel macaque hosting the Augusta national women's amateur

this Saturday right here on pj tour radio channel 92 we come back some final thoughts for you on

this Tuesday on five clubs right after this back in last couple of minutes here on this Tuesday on

five clubs always appreciate the support of Peter Miller lucky enough to be aligned with them

proud to represent this this great brand that's grown in a way that whatever it is that you might

need from what they were 25 years ago making cashmere sweaters to now making anything that you

could possibly need walking to one of their retail stores as I do often it fills place here in

Charlotte you're going he's right anything you need is at pitamalore and pitamalore.com thank you

again to Amelia Durand Christopher Maddog Russo Allen shipnug shantel macaque tomorrow Gabby

Hersig before she heads to Augusta national to cover the master's tournament for the athletic and

of course a contributor here and Todd Lewis from golf channel looking forward to having them on

the program tomorrow remind her Monday two hours for us gym dance Ben Crenshaw, Scott Van Pelt,

Jaime Diaz, Key Stewart others as well as soon as I can confirm and if I can today you'll know

tomorrow who's going to be with us from eight to ten on Monday from Augusta Georgia and I can

promise you because Crenshaw is being is coming on the show Monday it's not the reason why I

watched every shot that they showed from the 1984 masters the first that he won I did it because

he's my guy I but I don't want to say I'd forgotten a few of them but my memory was jogged the one

that will always stand out is the t-shirt on 12 because that was I thought the moment of truth

because his nemesis and friend Tom Kite wouldn't go away and that's the beauty of what Augusta

national is created with the vault is that you can go and just watch every shot that has been

broadcast from the late 60s and obviously if you want to watch last year and Rory's fun around

I've watched it a couple different ways I've watched it with the the commentary and I've watched

it without they're both good for whatever reason just just hearing the just the ambient noise

there was something about that that I found a little bit more compelling one thing a lot of people

are going to have a lot of specials and commentary as it relates to the masters I will say yesterday

I did consume not all of it because it's dense not in a dumb way in a great way there's a lot of it

fried egg has got their preview and you can literally click on all 18 holes and it gives a

historical capsule in addition to understanding from a design principal standpoint the evolution

of these holes they do great work and that's just the latest example of giving people something

in full in a great great way tomorrow as I mentioned Gabby Todd Lewis and then we will have

dogs and picks the fact that Gil Hans who I believe is currently in New Zealand working on a project

has already submitted his Valero Texas open pick he's feeling frisky coming off his win a couple

of weeks ago picking Cam Young we're now three weeks in a row folks we're in uncharted waters

the fact that somebody on this team has picked a winner on the PGA tour in three straight weeks

it was Cam Young for Gil it was Matt Fitzpatrick for Emma it was this G Dub hooking his wagon

to that G Dub at the Houston Open what would be really mind blowing is if our expert picked a winner

Keith shake off the doldrums it's basically April we'll see you tomorrow on a Wednesday

have a great rest of your day