374. High Thrill and Low Body Count: The Hidden Genre, with Kristine Delano

Hello, I'm Jennia Delima, welcome to Writing and Editing, the other focused podcast that

takes a whole person approach to everything related to writing and editing.

Money, power, and the length people will go to in order to attain them and hold on to

them might be the hallmarks of the financial thriller.

When the stakes are high and ethical boundaries are willingly crossed, secrets come out, our

protagonists will face certain dangers and layers of corruption are revealed.

And now here it tells us what makes financial thrillers so riveting is author Christine

Delano.

Well, first lovely to have you here, Christine.

Thank you, I'm so glad to be here.

So before we start, what do you think distinguishes the financial thriller from some of the other

subgenres in the thriller genre?

Sure.

So I think one of the things is that we don't necessarily need to have dead bodies, to have

a lot of suspense and sort of thrilling escapades.

I think that more so we're looking to like murder reputations and the stakes of sort of

money and success and things like that.

So I think it's kind of fun to play with the things that maybe every day people experience

but we just kind of take it to a whole other level.

Oh, yeah, I like that you said that it reminds me a little bit about mysteries and

coasting mysteries, where we might not always have, yeah, that same level of violence or

as high as a death count or maybe no death count at all, but yeah, well, I mean, there

is wine, but other ways, yeah.

Yes, exactly.

And you just never know.

Like I'm not anti dead bodies, but it's fun not to necessarily have to go there to

know that what is at stake for some of these folks that have just put everything into

their careers and the idea that they could lose it, they could lose their reputation,

they could lose the foundation of their families.

It's enough to sort of keep you on the edge of your seat seat.

And reputation does come up a lot in your book and I think in other financial thrillers

too.

So can you explain why reputation is such a core aspect of these stories?

Right.

So on Wall Street or in high finance, the idea of what are you doing for me now?

And what is the evidence that you're going to be able to get the deal done?

So the idea of who you are as your reputation is just key for every bit of negotiation,

the ideal that a deal needs to be done.

People want to work with you, people want to work for you.

It is the idea of networks and what is said about you is so key.

Now, what's interesting, at least for me in this area, it's not always nice guys and

proper women that are the ones that are getting ahead.

Their reputations can kind of be difficult, but they get the job done.

And so I kind of wanted to explore some folks that are finding success in the book that

aren't always the people that you want to root for.

Yeah.

I think that's one of the very first lines you have, which feels like it's related to

this, was we all have secrets we're forced to keep.

And just that wording right there that we're forced to keep.

So can you explain how that works into this networking, the social hierarchy at play,

where they're working, and the reputation?

Oh, that's such a good question.

So for me, it's all about what people do for their jobs and who is it that they're

putting themselves out to be.

So every Wall Street firm is trying to get the attention of your assets, of your dollars

of your investment.

So there's so many secrets just layered into the idea of how do you find success?

And how do you make your offering better than anyone else?

So if you're already starting with that idea that you have to keep secrets just in the

work that you do, there's this pile on effect of how do I actually open myself up?

How do I actually find truth?

How do I actually be vulnerable?

Because vulnerability is actually seen as very much a bad thing, a sign of weakness.

And so when folks get so embedded in their jobs and they start doing that with their friends,

with their family, with their spouses, with their kids, and they start layering on the

secrets, some because they need to and other because it almost just becomes a habit.

Yes, so can you talk about how that affects the personal relationships that your main

character Meredith has?

Yeah, that's such a sad piece of what I needed to write.

I love starting stories where there's just a whole bunch of backstory.

We don't need to go there, but it just sort of layers in sort of the richness and how

people speak to each other and sort of the almost the coded way people talk.

Right?

Once you know someone, you don't need to like, well, yesterday, when you made me that

buttered toastery, you know, it's all sort of layered in the way we speak.

And I feel like with Meredith and Clint, we've sort of found them on sort of the first

page of the book in already sort of a really difficult time in their marriage.

They love each other.

They got together because they loved each other and they have just lost the ability to

communicate.

They lost the ability to sort of see the best in each other.

And instead, everything that said is almost through this filter of, you no longer see

me, you no longer love me, you no longer appreciate me, or you expect too much from me.

And I really feel like that's a lot of the marriages that I've seen fail is not this

idea that it's like this bombastic.

That's, you know, let's have it all out and everyone's screaming at each other.

Instead, it's almost like a quiet quit, you know, it's like I've stopped communicating.

I've stopped seeing the best in you.

And instead of actually having another fight, we're just going to stop talking.

And so in the beginning of the book, we sort of land ourselves there.

And then it's I think interesting to watch as they have to face sort of the demons in

the book.

Do they do it together?

Do they find a way to communicate?

Do they find a way back to the love that they know is there somewhere?

And do you think that this career choice goes against having these sorts of strong personal

relationships?

So for instance, could you easily be one person at home and one person at work, or do you

think it'd be really, really hard to pull those apart so that they are two separate people?

Incredibly insightful.

I think that is the trap that people fall into in this idea of I need to become what the

other person needs of me or expects of me, or I have the energy to be for you.

And over time, that really erodes your own sense of self because you're showing up all

these different ways.

And it all becomes very confused in your own head.

You stop finding any joy in any pieces of it.

So kind of getting back to the first part of your question, do you feel like it's sort

of embedded in a career like this that is the logical outcome?

And I don't believe that at all in real life.

I have amazing friends who work in the highest places of Wall Street and we've been friends

for a long time and we sharpen each other.

We sort of call it out to each other and many of us have very strong marriages, very

strong families.

But it is a work.

It is not something that sort of just comes natural.

If the idea of ambition can become toxic, but ambition can actually fuel a lot of what

you're created to be.

But if you're not surrounding yourself with people that can show you the mirror when

you're going off course, it becomes very easy to take that toxicity and apply it everywhere

in your life.

It's sort of like healthy ambition versus ambition that's just driven by pure ego.

Right.

Right.

Well, speaking of who people are expected to be, who is Meredith expected to be at work?

She is expected to behave first and foremost.

She is expected to pay her dues.

She is expected to find success for her company, otherwise no one would want her there.

So she is expected to raise a lot of assets, meaning that she needs to design something,

a financial product that people want to buy.

She has done that.

But the people that have been there for a long time, especially the men that are quite

a bit older than her, expect her to pay her dues in the ways of showing deference to

them, sharing her success, downplaying her own role and making sure that the people around

her share in that success to a larger degree than her own team.

And those are the things that just rile her.

Those are the things that, in some cases, she lets go because she's like, I'm a player

of the long game.

You know, like, I'm not going to let things ruffle me.

But over time, she starts to see this idea of not taking up that battle, not assuming

that her people are going to be taken care of and that the right things are coming out.

She starts to see that she's actually complicit in the lies that are being told.

And do you think that Annie's expectations will be different if she was a man?

I think quite a bit.

I think there's such an undercurrent of what is expected of people and who deserves success.

Now I think it's, in a lot of ways, there's a double edge to that.

Sometimes because you're female, you actually get the opportunities because you look different

because people notice you.

You're actually drawn in because of the difference that you provide.

But in her case, it's a lot of folks saying, oh, we really liked you when you were kind

of interesting to us and you were going to bring us a good idea, but your success can

only go so far.

We've put a ceiling over you.

You're crashing through it and that's uncomfortable to us.

And I really wanted to kind of explore that where she was hired to do a job and she was

doing really good at it.

And they're like, yay, yay.

And then she gets too big and they're like, wait, wait, no, no, take that down.

Now you're a misbehaving woman.

Yeah, because we've never heard that before.

Right?

So I know that it never goes well for the woman in question, yes, because you do have a background

in the financial sector.

Were there any real life scenarios or issues that inspired you or that you knew before you

started writing that they would make for an excellent story?

That's such a good question.

So I wrote three manuscripts before this manuscript.

And I felt like a lot of those were a lot more cathartic where I could like lift people

almost from my life and I was like, oh, I have some things to work out on the page.

So by the time I got to this one, I felt like I had elevated not only my writing and

my storytelling, but also my character creation where I could take traits, like interesting

ways in which people use Chachki or interesting ways in which they walk into a room or the ways

in which they hold a meeting or get their ideas out to others.

And I would put stakes to that, put ambition to that and kind of create characters.

So no one was like full-fill lifted out of my journal or out of my life, but I wanted

to make sure that there was really authentic characteristics and really a way for people

to sort of see into a world that maybe they don't have a lot of experience with.

And was there anything in your career that you think people who aren't familiar with

that area that they might find surprising or even shocking?

I think for a lot of folks, they may find it surprising how ambitious she is.

She isn't forced to do some of the things that keep her away from home.

She could make choices that bring her closer to her husband and her kids.

And over time, she's let that erode.

And I think sometimes we kind of blame the job or we blame the situation or we blame the

culture, but people are sometimes complicit in their own eroding of the boundaries that

are in their lives.

You mentioned that I worked in this area in high finance for well over 20 years and I'd

people around me all the time just questioning my life choice.

I recognize that I looked a lot different from the people that I were friends with in

a small town in Maine, but I also knew that I was committed with my husband to sort of

make things work.

And I'm like, don't blame an entire industry for sort of the bad actors that do it.

So I hope that's surprising that it's not like it's a pool of sort of evil that runs

our financial system.

There are actual individuals making good and bad choices that no one's all good or no

one's all bad.

Yeah, I know that's something interesting that you bring up on that we see in the

story too, but even those pressures coming from home and then from work that you should

be investing your time here or maybe investing your time here instead.

And even then just how someone balances that and finds a level of investment in each that

they're comfortable with where they don't feel like they're sacrificing one over the

other.

So how does Meredith do that?

Yeah, well said, I think that we get to see that crumble entirely, you know, she's making

choices to stay in her seat when she knows that her husband has actually asked her not

to come home.

And then later on, he asked her to come home and she's, you know, still at work.

And so we see that the choices that she makes and the disconnect between that, it was

fun writing those things too because when I set out to write, I'm a big plotter.

So, you know, there's so much of it that I knew was going to happen, but I left kind of

who the bad guy was until I had most of the story written and really sort of explored.

So I kind of left everyone as realistic as possible being that they had good traits

and they had bad traits.

And so I could amplify or, you know, sort of put in some red herring and some other hints

as to the culprit over the course of the story.

And I feel like even with her, I didn't want to make her this put upon person where she

was sort of weak or didn't have agency.

She had agency to make both good and bad decisions throughout the entire book.

And I hope that people sort of see themselves in that that we're not always in our shining

armor all day long.

She definitely shows that she's not weak and has agency right from beginning.

And you can see her put into multiple hard places.

I think even from the first chapter and then how she grapples with, okay, what decision

am I making?

But she also makes some decisions with complete certainty, and even when she has those

people pushing against her, it's just, no, this is what I'm doing.

Right.

Right.

And that's fun, right?

And when it may not work out for her or it might not have been the best decision, that's

what I absolutely love about books over movies or other forms of media is that you get

to see what's going on in her head, the choices she's making, the uncertainty she's feeling,

and then her dialogue, which is like, I am absolutely marching in this direction.

Like there's no doubt I've got this.

And I just think that is so fun to watch that, you know, it's sort of that disconnect

and that conflict within ourselves because books are the only place that we get that

kind of insight into other people's minds.

And as to the complexity of her character and how you understand her, because if you only

saw those outward reactions or her verbal responses, you might have a completely different

idea of who she is as a person.

If you hadn't seen all that back and forth or the self questioning, you know, compared

to that just, you know, this is what's happening, right?

And there's this one moment where she's speaking to her daughter on the phone and she asks

her, do you need me to come home, you know, because her teenage daughter is, you know,

is wrecked.

Yeah.

But in her head, she's like, don't ask me, though, like I really can't, like I've got

so much going on, I'm, you know, hosting all this, like it is one of the biggest days

of my career.

Please don't ask me to do the thing that I just asked you if you want me to do.

And I honestly can remember moments that I had with my kids as well, where I would be

like, I'll be there in a moment, do you need me?

But I'm in my head screaming, please don't ask.

And it's just the most difficult moment as a mother where you know that you will do it.

But you know, you're just pleading for them to be strong.

And then later on, you're just thinking, what are some of those lies that I've traded,

you know, that like, they should be strong enough.

I should be strong enough, you know, all of those things.

And so I, those were a few of those moments that I got to kind of weave into the story

that I have absolute memory of doing myself.

Yes.

I really connected with that part too, because I've had times where maybe it's a really tight

deadline.

And then one of the kids is having a personal crisis, you know, maybe a friend issue

or a bad breakup, or they really need help studying for something.

And obviously, these things just come up like an emergency, and you've already blocked

your time down to the minute.

And now it's okay.

So that's all just gone out the window and how do I satisfy both sides of my life?

How do I keep them happy and make sure they're cared for?

But then also, how do I meet this deadline?

That sort of thing.

Yeah.

Yes.

And it's been my great pleasure in life to mentor and be mentored by so many amazing

women.

And that's, you know, part of why I feel like the stories in the book and the scenes and

the book become authentic, because it's not just my experiences.

It's like talking to people like you were like, yes, yes, and tell me more about that.

And so it's like all those things are all swirling while I, you know, create the characters

that, you know, end up on the page.

Well, going back to the story as a whole, or maybe this subgenre as a whole.

And I do think that using those little bits of relatability helps add to this.

But how do you keep the stories accessible for those who have little knowledge about financial

systems and institutions and how all these things work together?

Oh my gosh.

That was like the hardest part of writing this book.

Oh my goodness, because I absolutely know what kind of writer I am.

Like I absolutely know that this idea of like Wall Street suspense domestic thriller is

like exactly my wheelhouse.

But I feel like not only this book, but the second one I just turned in, I have like a

reader on each of my shoulders, it's like, you know, it's kind of like the devil in the

angel, right?

And one of them, and they're, they're both wonderful.

But one of them are like a reader that's like, well, street, I don't even think I want

to read about that.

And then the other one is like, hey, I've worked in it for 40 years.

And you know, I know more about it than you do, but I'm going to read your book.

And I think, oh, I've got to satisfy both sides of this.

Like I've got to infuse enough authenticity in it where I'm not being called foul by the

person that, you know, has been in the space.

But I'm also not putting too much to the financial gobbling book in it where people get lost.

And I worked really hard on it.

I feel like I will get better in my, probably in my later books as well, because this is

my debut, but it was something that I was very intent on every time I would mention

a financial term.

I'm like, have you earned space on this page to be here?

And I would often think back to watching Grey's Anatomy with my girls and all the times

where they would, you know, throw medical terms around and I was just like, we don't

really need to know.

Yes.

I think that's going on medically.

We just need to know that those characters are very confident that they know what they're

talking about so that I can have confidence that they know what they're doing.

And so I felt like my Meredith versus Grey's Anatomy Meredith, I felt like, is this name

inspiration?

It isn't, but it's like, as I talk about it, it actually totally holds up.

But you know, it's just like being confident that she knows what she's talking about and

that she knows what she's talking about with other people, but hopefully people don't

get too caught up in it and think, oh, well, I have to know what security's lending

is.

Or I need to know exactly what an extreme traded fund ETF is or something like that where

I'm like, you really don't, you just, you know, just come along for a ride.

Yeah.

No, it does come across.

And I can see so well now how you've done that because as you're reading it, you do see

her talking to other characters about these things, but it just feels like it's enough

that they know what they're talking about.

And because there's so much personal introspection and thinking about what's happening next or

what they feel like is happening that you don't really care about the terms so much versus

what's at stake for this person or why they're being put in this position and how they'll

get out of it.

Yeah.

Yes.

Exactly.

Well, that was definitely the point.

And I'm excited to keep trying to strike that balance.

And then we've talked about this a little bit, but what are some of the moral issues that

you think this subgenre allows us to explore?

Hmm.

Well, I think in the title itself, the lies we trade is so implicit to me in what I'm

trying to do in a thriller.

It's that idea of what lies are we telling ourselves, what lies are we telling each

other, you know, what lies are we using to justify our really bad behavior?

And I feel like financial thrillers, domestic suspense give us a lot of opportunity to

explore, you know, when truth becomes uncomfortable or truth is an impediment to someone's success,

what do people do in exchange for that truth?

And I want it just to be a real big reminder to everyone about sort of the stakes don't

always have to be bloody.

The stakes can absolutely be sort of a tearing down of your own soul of your own conscious,

which is, you know, which is kind of huge for being able to live with yourself.

Right.

And so I find that really fun to play with.

And if you can take it to sort of extremes and, you know, play around it, you know,

it's at the highest level of people telling lies and thwarting each other's success and

things like that, it can maybe help you reflect it a little bit more in your own life as

well.

And just thinking about that too, a little bit would death even be the worst consequence

for some of these people where reputation is held in such a high regard where you think,

okay, well, at least I'm leaving this legacy behind or people will remember me this way.

My aim will be on this building or whatever versus losing in all of that and knowing that's

not what you're leaving behind to be remembered by.

Right.

Exploring some of that were exactly that.

Like, people would be like, well, I'll die as long as everyone believes that I'm, you

know, successful and strong and a powerful person.

The worst would be to seem weak or unsuccessful or a failure.

And those are some crazy things that people are willing to sacrifice for.

And it's really fun to explore characters that take that to an extreme.

Oh, and finally, what positives did you show about those in the industry like Mariday's

who aren't purely driven by greed or the need for self promotion?

So one of the things that I really wanted to show in this book was the idea that where

she was at wasn't necessarily an evil place.

It was just a very complex place to find herself and her success.

I had read so many books and nothing against them, but so many books where someone has to

like leave the city to go to the harvest festival or leave the high-powered thing to go open

up their own cookie shop, which is fun, like I totally get those kind of stories.

I wanted to write something different where she actually could remain in her industry.

She could find her place in it and she could find a better balance and she could find hope

for her family and the people that she loved.

And I really wanted her to find that.

Now I followed her through this story, so I kept thinking, oh gosh, if you move back to

the harvest festival, I'm going to have to follow you there.

But I was really happy with how it ended.

And in the end, I felt like it brought hope to a lot of people that struggle in these

same situations.

I didn't knit everything together.

Like at the end, we're not like, oh, everybody's super happy with everybody else and everyone's

apologized and all of that.

But I did feel like we had characters that had learned a lot about themselves.

Not just Meredith, but Clint and a number of other characters had come through a transformation

that was in a lot of ways better for themselves and better for their soul.

In the end, I always want to write a thriller that has some hope as opposed to closing it

and being like, oh, now I'm depressed.

No, I think that's a great point too, because it shows you don't have to abandon these

trajectories for your career or whatever it is.

You can still stay there and keep your own inner moral compass intact without also sacrificing

that in order to stay there, but it doesn't have to be this one or the other decision.

Well said.

Yes.

Exactly that.

Well, thank you again for such a great conversation.

Thank you.

It's so much fun.

And you have probably some of the harder questions that I've gotten and I love it.

That is like my jam is to delve into this.

This was great.

Oh, thank you.

That makes me feel so happy.

And thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for additional information.

And then please, dreamy next week, when we have another episode where you can listen to

more about craft and writing.

Thanks again.