453. When Duty Sex Replaces Desire, Addressing A Listeners Question- With Expert Austin LMFT

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It's another episode of the Ultimate Intimacy Podcast and of course Friday so

we have Austin on with us. Excited to have you back. Have the therapy

Friday, we need to change that name, but I think I think today's subject is

going to be a really good one. We had someone write in and say, hey, can we have

this conversation with Austin, but I think it's something that a lot of couples

deal with in marriage, don't you think? Including us. Yeah, I mean, it's

that everyone, right? I'm too tired. I'm not going to say anything. I think that

every couple deals with this, which is why it's a good topic, but it takes a lot

of communication for a long time. So yeah, do you want me to start out by

reading it? Yeah, I think set in the stage. We'll read the email and he's going

to generalize it a little bit and still tell us that personal personal

information. So I'm not quoting it exactly. And then a lot of you are going to be

shaking your head saying, oh, this is exactly what we need to talk about today.

I think most women feel like this and I think most men feel like this. So there's

two sides to every story, which is what we try to make very clear on our

podcasts that there's, you know, two sides. Okay. So she says, I have been listening

to your podcast for a while now. This morning, my husband and I had an argument

about sex or lack their up. It's been an ongoing argument for the last period

of time, hard for me to put an exact time on it. His complaint is that I made

sex a chore and that he's not interested in that. He says that I complain about

being a mother and how hard it is, et cetera, that I'm tired. I'm not

affectionate in the bedroom. So why would he even be interested? A little back

story. We've been married for a certain amount of time. Have a couple kids. Our

youngness just had difficulty sleeping off and on. I don't want to share any

times or personal information, but major issue. Kid has been sleeping in bed

often. Okay, we'll just leave it at that. My husband and I both work full time. He

has long shifts. Let's see. I also work very little time off together. My

husband's approach to what he said was hurtful and that this is his

attention since I know he's hurt too, but I also know his words have truth to

them too. I'm reaching out for guidance with them. I'm not sure exactly. Okay.

That's pretty much the gist of it. Okay. I'm just going to leave out the

personal stuff, but she reached out to me personally. I think wanted to hear

you know kind of what I had to say about it. So I'm going to I have plenty to

say about it. I'm sure Nick has plenty to say about. We've been here before. I

mean, oh, absolutely. Yeah. We have both worked a lot in our marriage. So we

understand that both working part and yeah, I think this is going to be a

good conversation because I there are there are many times that I am exactly in

her situation and I'm not going to say that I haven't been or I'm not open.

Well, before we jump in Austin, one of the things that I that caught my

attention on that, and I think this is the way a lot of men fill is they don't

want to he's saying he doesn't want to just be intimate to be intimate. He

wants his wife to desire him and want to be intimate. And I think most men

fill that way. If you gave them the choice, they're like, I don't want to,

you know, if you're just sitting there laying there and don't want to be

intimate, I don't want to be intimate with you. And so, you know, I mean, I

you know, we've had these discussions a lot as well too. And he's not saying she's

just not even participating. We don't know the details of that. What he's saying

is like, if you don't want it, if you're not interested in it, then I don't

want it anymore. You know, which is a little bit different in our marriage

because like Nick still wants it. Even if it's not the top of my list, he's

still like, I still want it. So, okay, I know Austin has a lot to say.

Well, I mean, this is really, it is a common struggle. And I guess what I'd like

to get is kind of the core solution, right? I'd kind of like to start there.

Because there's a lot of variations of this that have been flowed with couples.

I remember when I first trained, I mean, I was in I was in school when I started

training as a sex therapist. All of my professors were sex therapists as well.

And I remember one of the things that was was taught very early on that I've

seen with every couple and truly every couple I work with their sexuality

component to it because it is a valuable and important part of a

relationship. But one of the things that were taught was all sexual healing is

emotionally based. Right? It's you can separate

hypothetically sex from an emotional bond. But you can't separate it from emotions

because you feel emotional one way or another being sexual. So one of the

examples I see often and I try to help people like get in tune with this,

you can have feel good. Let's call them orgasm feelings that you're being

sexual while also feeling very emotionally lonely or rejected or fear.

Like all that can be going on. Why you still have a feel good orgasm, right?

And so the idea that we want to help couples get to is can you have an emotional

bonding experience through sexuality? That best happens if you're already

emotionally bonded. And so right if someone you know let's take this example

a husband says hey I you know I want to be intimate or she says hey do you want

to be intimate and he's now rejecting it because he has experience is like no

why would I want to be sexual? I'm just going to feel rejected.

Even though you're asking to have sex I want I want love making is the

language I would use there. And so the conversation there that like I would

help a couple have is how can you go into the bedroom already

connected already bonded ideally for several days right? A lot of couples use sex

to get connected and what they realize is they don't actually connect they just

feel good maybe temporarily right? And so an emotional bond like this is really

important and emotional bond is you understand each other's emotions.

What's going on for you? What's you know are you stressed? How's work? Like

you have to have those conversations to be in tune with each other.

If you don't have that in tuneness or attunement sometimes we call it I

use the language in to me see right? If I'm not letting you in to see what's

going on for me we're not bonded we can we can have sex we can do physical

you know things but that's not intimacy and that's I think what this you

know couple is experiencing is for both of them right? She's not experiencing

an emotional bond that's why she's showing up the way she is. That's a lack of

something he's providing and then she's not able to bring her whole self to

the bedroom because it's not emotionally bonding for her it's

emotionally feel good for him but she would I would assume go more often

and again I don't this doesn't across the board like there's busy schedules like we

got to prioritize this but I think very commonly the solution we look for is okay

you have limited time what are you prioritizing above time to connect? A lot of

times it's stupid stuff like a phone it's too many sports with the kids like

we can fill our lives with busyness to avoid the vulnerability of

connection like people do that all the time but I think where we look at a

solution is Caleb's carve out some time for you to connect emotionally

tab some fun together like go on a day do some recreation

tab some meaningful conversations and to invest in like the the playfulness the

affection that leads up to now we want to go to the bedroom

and then there's obviously we can go into this there's some education about

really the flip flop of how sexual response happens different for a man and a woman

understanding that I would say most people don't understand that

and I would say that's really vital to understand yeah I think that's a place we can go but

the the thing I want to kind of end this part with is this is healable this is prioritizing not

just sex this is prioritizing love this is prioritizing I care for you

when care is in place even if a woman isn't feeling sexual yet she can enter the bedroom

out of care and love and connection and say I want to be with you I may not need sex I hear

that all the time for women I don't I don't need sex and a lot of times women say hey I'm

already fulfilled now I don't need the sex to do the next piece but I'm willing to go into that

and have a great time because I'm already feeling that fulfillment and they don't they don't

need the sex component does that make sense oh 100% you know I mean I talk about this a lot

and hitting back on I think it's so important for each spouse to recognize how each other

are feeling I know for I'll speak from a man's standpoint of you um you know she the wife's

probably you know thinking well why does he not want to do it just because he knows that I'm

not interested I I know for a period of time in our marriage when obligatory sex happens I think

most men feel like if if I'm having sex knowing that she doesn't want to do it I'm I for the for

times that happen in our relationship I felt like I was doing something wrong because I'm like I

know that she doesn't want to have it but we're still having it almost like it was forced and it

actually caused me to feel like even worse not only just rejected but now um now I feel like I'm

doing something wrong because we're participating in this act that should be something bonding and

I know that she doesn't she's not interested in doing it right and so that's where through many

discussions and talking about things and um you know that like overcoming that so I think for a lot

of men is you know a lot of women just think oh he just wants to have sex but the point I'm trying

to make is so much deeper like you said talking about emotionally but also when it just comes across

as it's just obligatory and I'm gonna do it for him it not only is a rejection for the husband

but also for many husbands probably makes them feel like I'm doing something wrong knowing that

she doesn't want it right here we got we got to stop right here just a second have a conversation

on this because this is this cut this is caused a lot of rift in our in our relationship just to

be honest with you for a wife and I mean and we're talking about this situation I understand that

there's high-droid wives this can go the opposite way like we get that like every relationship's

gonna be different but for a lot of women that are reaching out that have the lower drive or the

responsive desire not the spontaneous which I really think we need to do a full episode on that right

I think that we need to talk or discuss about if a wife is I'm not just saying willing she's not

just willing to do it like it's obligatory but I'm willing right I think that if you're willing with

a positive attitude but you're still kind of in the mind frame like this is because you want it

it's not because it's the top thing on my mind but hey positive and I'm willing and I know that

it's connecting that sometimes needs to be okay yeah of course it needs to be okay because sometimes

we are physically exhausted like a guy or mother never understand no matter how he tries even if he's

a stay-home dad once in a while is ever realized how mentally exhausting it is to be the go-to parent

like most dads will never experience that right like the constant emails the constant stuff that

moms are dealing with when am I making for lunch breakfast lunch dinner all those things you know

kids are coming down I need my bed sheets changed today I need this wash I have this tomorrow I need

to run the store like it's constant and most men don't realize the emotional tiredness that women

carry and so at the end of the day if you're like yeah I'm gonna give up my screen time of 20 minutes

I'm okay to connect with you but but it's not the top thing on my mind sometimes that needs to be

okay and I think that's what we need to talk about is like it's not rejection if I'm willing

with a positive attitude the whole comes down to how are you acting during it what is your mind

said what is that positivity look like are you are you treating it like you're just doing him a

favor are you saying I'm doing this for us like there's just a lot of pieces to this yeah

I think it's it's probably not as much as like a one-time thing or occasionally I think it's

more of when a husband feels like that constantly or a wife feels like that constantly when

it almost becomes like a way of life so to speak right yeah yeah what you're talking on I mean

and I think it's really important to understand that I would say that's most normal like when I

learned about female sexual response and it's interesting because even when women have the high

desire that's typically not born out of sexual desire that's typically born out of attachment

longings and a woman has learned my best hope to get my needs met is through sex and it kind of

becomes a shortcut where she's like I kind of got my needs met but typically women aren't fulfilled

that way either that's why they want more sex it's trying to get a need met through sex that

that isn't met sexually for women and so what you're describing it's really helpful for men and

women to understand this like traditional kind of let's call it healthy female sexuality that's not

born out of deprivation tends to look like I'm relatively connected enough I do love him

the exact word you use I'm willing to go into the bedroom and allow desire to awaken right

women typically don't have desire like men do for sexual connection even if they're already

emotionally connected because for a lot of women that's the fulfilling part it's like I already

already got this part I am fulfilled when we have that healthy understanding of going but I know

the emotional connection doesn't fulfill it for him I'm willing to take the next step the way

this plays out she will go to the bedroom or wherever and she'll typically write the sexual response

for women is typically that choice I'm willing okay it's a conscious decision and then it's I'm

putting myself in a position to allow myself to fill desire the step before that is typically a

rousal okay so it starts with oxygen your feet massage in your back it starts to touch you

that a rousal happens before desire happens then right you make love you have sex a lot of men

right we already filled desire kind of for no reason frankly a lot of men are operating from

of let's call the biological desire not a love desire frankly ideally a man is operating from

I love you desire not a biological desire women feel that differently right we can talk of how

does a guy get there because the biology is there it's going to be there um but what you're seeing

in this example is that's this man wants to make love to his wife he's bypassing his biology

and this man wants to have sex I guarantee it he's bypassing his biology by going I don't want

rejection anymore I don't want sex I don't want orgasm I want love making right and so when both

understand this what happens is the woman right will start to fill desire when it's already

happening men have the desire and oftentimes the arousal before anything sexual has even happened

and we just need to understand that difference when a husband and wife understand that hey we're

different and we want this sexual component of our relationship to be great for both of us right then

you're you're accounting for both that means sometimes a wife is taking responsibility of going

I'm really not there and I haven't really been there for four days or three days or whatever

I'm going to help myself get to a place where I'm willing to enter the you know that experience

that might be an open communication I need this so I can go there and a husband will typically

respond with that um sometimes right and a husband needs to be able to go well I've been wanting to

be intimate for you know two three four five days and she's not in that place I'm I might wait

a couple days for her to be more you know available more invested in that but in that open dialogue

I will tell you most couples can't have um one of the things when I do like an assessment around

sexuality for a couple the the way that we know therapeutically the kind of a strength or

healthiness of their sex life is one can you talk about it outside of the bedroom can you talk

about it while you're having it you know and then the third is can yeah this sounds this seems

strange for a lot of people can you look in each other's eyes okay a lot of couples can't do these

three they can do the mechanics of sex but it's highly disconnected when you can't when you can't

high flip there but out when you can't look in people's eye you know you're making love to someone

you can't look them in the eyes you can't talk about what you're doing and you can't share what you

want to do that shows a lack of emotional intimacy that's gonna leave you having sex that's not

intimate it's just me scratching an itch so to speak because that makes sense yeah yeah absolutely

we talk about this all the time like we you know I only know what I know what goes on in my mind right

like I don't know what goes on in her mind advice first and that's why we feel it's so important to

talk to each other is trying to understand how she feels and her trying to understand how I feel

and I think it was Laura Brothersson that said this but you know men men need to make love to fill

loved and women need to fill love to make love and so it's you know kind of kind of opposite right

but we both we both need those things and so having that communication and talking about those

things and you know can I remember I remember early I was I was in school to become a therapist and

me my wife were seeing a therapist and I remember his name was Jeff Ford and he gave this really

true analogy he said Austin love is like a piano keyboard and he said you only know the sex key

right and like it's the best one bro like but what he said and I've had to learn this over

last 15 years is he said like if every key is love we need to as men often have that expanded

ability to fill love in other ways yes sex is typically the most powerful but there's a lot of

things our wives do that are love that I mean truly a lot of men don't value they don't feel

that's what I would say probably a lack of development our capacity to fill love is much bigger than

right in the bedroom kind of thing I remember truthfully mine was very narrow like it was like if we

had certain types of passion certain types of kissing like then it kind of quote-unquote counted

as love but if it was sex even Amy the way you're describing like she wasn't really feeling it

but she was there because she loved me and she was willing I tended to not count that as feeling

lovable unless there was some like passionate thing and over time I had to learn like oh like

I can expand it I can fill love in a multiple you know multitude of ways it's not it's not

sexual at all it's not you know necessarily even something she's doing for me it's something she's

doing for her to be a better version of her for our relationship or our family and I started to

see that a little bit different we can we probably should talk of how do you how do you expand that

but I see you nodding Amy and I think you know most women probably say I am showing love all the time

and it's like doesn't count like I wanted to add I wanted to add to your piano analogy when you

done that I like that analogy because what I'm shaking my head is that like you take the piano

and I'm a piano player so I get it like I could show Nick in love this way this way make him a dinner

tell him I love him kiss him goodbye like right during the day right but if I say I'm too tired

tonight maybe tomorrow night for him true those are all bye bye those like then it happened like

he's gonna be like I thought rejected I accurate oh time out there right yeah I can do all play

all those beautiful keys but if I don't get that one note he's gonna feel rejected

I'm just saying this on our marriage this is the one key that I don't think about because I don't

have a high drive at the moment you know what I mean right but he's I feel loved so this disconnect

takes constant communication and our relationship it does and this is where I mean this is a very

common thing like it's not it's not inaccurate that men reportedly feel the most love through sex

like that that's real like I'm a majority of men say they feel the most love through sex however

when sex is working well a lot of men also start to prioritize other things above that I like I really

like doing recreation together and I really like our conversations right but when sex is not working

and there's I mean there's research on this for couples men and women that say they report like

marital satisfaction on on both levels when asked how important sexes they send us tend to say

it's like 25% of the equation when couples are struggling and they're asked how important sexes

they typically say it's like 75 to 90% so right much higher and so it is a very important part of

a relationship a place where I try to go with couples is helping each of them look at their own

sexuality right you're both sexual beings but you're different sexual beings and understanding

your own sexuality like how does this work for me where I I want to be sexual where I leave and I

feel like a better version of my stuff I leave feeling rejuvenated connected not drained and a lot

of people like nobody's trained on how do I get in tune with that for myself and then how do I

grow I just said this a few episodes ago I think there's work for both the high desire low desire

in any relationship it takes a lot of energy to tame down if you're the high desire person like

it's not unrealistic that there's people that are like I want to have sex three times a day every day

that's real for them taming that down that desire it is work there's a lot of people that go I

could have no sex ever I'd be fine turning that on is work right and to create it with you

create it where this sexual intimacy is beneficial for both of you the idea for a lot of let's say

women in this aspect is it's a conscious decision it's I'm not feeling this I'm choosing this

which is actually more loving for men this this took me a while to get

yeah if I so let me let me go and step further with it if my wife just has high desire because she

has high desire truthfully that really has nothing to do with me right that's biology for her or

lacking something but when my wife doesn't have desire and she chooses me that's about me that's

not about sex and this is where a lot of people get this skewed your your partner is oftentimes

communicating I would say accidentally that what they want is sex it's not most men you said

it is that the language we should be using here is I want to become one with you I want to merge with

your soul I want to fill your spirit I want to I I need to be with you right that's different

than I need sex and that's where a lot of partners feel a lot of pain it's like okay I've just

do my duty I'm just an object kind of thing here but most people don't actually want the object if

I think as we talked about and so Amy going back to kind of what I was I was wording there the idea

here and this is what I've seen in my own life and in my practice quite a bit is when someone can

disconnect I want sex internally or when I'm rejected with sex I'm not being rejected a lot can

heal I remember a guy came into a group I ran years ago and he was like so happy he was like he's

like I get it he's like I realized I'm not sex and I was like what do you mean like yeah and he

said when my wife doesn't want to have sex with me she's not rejecting me she still wants to

be close to me she's still married to me she's still choosing me she just doesn't want to have

sex right now but that doesn't mean she doesn't want to connect with me and he was able to start to

realize that like he could connect with her in multiple ways then have sex connected sex then stay

connected and before that it was like connection through sex disconnection connection through sex

disconnection I was that was the only way he could see it and so it took me a long time I mean

really a lot of work to come to a place where consciously I would go yeah I wish you felt I

desire I wish you a lot of ripped my clothes off when I came into like that's kind of the fantasy

thing but I realized like if that's going on for her that could be because of love like maybe I'm

just so amazing she can't wait but that's not the way how it plays out right the the passion

is typically chosen that's what the research by Hestif Preldin long-term couples it's the

passionate it's love-making it's chosen and that's what's really cool about it is if you're

sexualities not working which for most couples it doesn't work based on reactivity or biology it

typically works based on what you two have chosen which is I'll call it agency I'm choosing

into this above my emotions above my biology because I want something both in that experience

but it's also like it's like sunlight for for a marriage at typically at least for one person right

as is the emotional connection sunlight for the other so very frequently as a therapist I see

two people come in and they're starved one is start with sexual intimacy one is start with

emotional intimacy and I would say probably 95% of couples aren't even talking about spiritual

intimacy and they're starved there too and those are different and so helping them start to get

in tune with like those three any one of them being invested in helps the other and so I guess

for the you know the you know this couple that wrote in for the woman that's

realizing there's some truth to like this obligation thing one of the steps I would take is to

give yourself permission to be a sexual being this is typically really hard for a lot of women

but a lot of men carry sexual shame as well they feel shameful for wanting sex and

I think there's a lot of value in healing and giving yourself permission to say I am a sexual being

I do want to be sexual and intimate it may not be as much right the low desire doesn't mean

typically no desire however there are no desire spouses that's typically because of wounding either

in the marriage or or previous that's not like yeah I don't think most people are born just like

no sexuality does that make sense yeah so giving yourself real quick giving yourself that

permission to say I can claim my sexuality and my sexuality might very much include emotional

and even spiritual you know stuff with it that's actually healthy if someone's sexuality the

male or female height is our low desire is disconnected from emotional and spiritual connection

it's typically born out of I would call it trauma or deprivation or you're operating from biology only

does that make sense yeah sorry that was good that was great information I you know one of the

common things I hear or we hear is you know when we got married the first ex amount of time like

she was wanting to make love all the time and you know everything that's what you say well a lot

of husbands say that like when we first got married things were great and yeah time and time

time changes things and time changes things but I think from a man or husband's perspective they

maybe don't understand why or what changed right they're like you know you used to desire me

all the time here and now we've been married X amount of years and I don't feel desired anymore

which we then equate to you know maybe she doesn't love me or maybe you know what what has changed

but I love what you said earlier on as well too is you know and I'm not one of the exact words but

you're exactly right like sex to a man is not sex if that were the case a guy could just

would just go take care of himself all the time and and they would be totally fine in a sexless

marriage because that's just a physical thing but the reality is is no man wants to do that and

because it just shows that it's not about sex it's not just about the physical thing it's about

connecting and the closeness and becoming one and and having that's very shared intimate experience

together which again women men and women experience that maybe a little differently so

you know what comes to mind and Amy I assume you'll have a thought on this um I remember reading a

book was by John Eldridge and and the quote I'll say I'll link it to our discussion but he says

he says a man stops being angry at his wife and kids when it's no longer his wife and kids job

to make him feel like a man I spent a lot of time with that like what does it what does that mean

and he like the idea here is men are getting angry because it's like you're not making me feel good

like I feel worth those I feel not good enough or whatever we apply that to sexuality right and a man

goes I can embody masculinity and feel like a man whether or not we're having sex that typically

is much more sexually attractive to a woman to not feel needed but um invited into something

and I think a lot of women are okay with feeling wanted if there's not the I mean this is

basic experience if there's not the pressure of expectation and truly a lot of people right come

in with expectations even entitlements a lot of I mean both but a lot of times women feel

um like an obligation that's even self-imposed uh I've seen a lot of this where a man will say like

hey I have like I want to be intimate with you but I don't have any kind of like parameters

but she will come into marriage you know I've heard so many things like the David for my wedding

my dad said put out or like whatever all this stuff that gets interpreted and then a woman is

putting pressure on herself to perform performance um and you know let's call it the relaxation that

allows a woman to really enjoy sexuality they don't they don't mix well right and so reducing that

in your marriage is really valuable and it's hard like I'm we're talking like top level right

there's some real work to be done to come to this place of going I want you because I love you

and I would like to create an intimate relationship across the board right mentally mostly sexually

spiritually whatever um that it works for both of us and a lot of times one will value more

more than the other like we've talked about but ideally your sexuality should be valuable to both

your spirituality should be you know valuable to both the emotional bond right should be

valuable to both if that weren't the case early on in a relationship most people probably wouldn't

get into a relationship they might have you know meaningless sex and have a fun night people do that

all the time but to take that next step to be together you typically had emotionally bond an

emotional bond of some sort um and that might have been lost for a lot of people but I think for

for men this again this took me a long time to to embody this place was I don't I don't want you

to have sex with me so I feel good enough I want you to have sex with me because you love me

I want you to have sex with me because you enjoy what we have together and if if I can't be the

guy that you know creates that um I got some work to do right and I talk with a lot of guys that

and vice versa a lot of times we can flip this around and guys go look I'm spending like a ton

of energy all right to provide for her needs and and I say here this a lot of time it gets

compared time wise we've had a four hour conversation yesterday about your stuff and you can make

love to me for you know 30 minutes like they compare the time thing and so it is really valuable

to start to look at what is my spouse investing that may not be equally valuable on their end

um that I need to be aware of that may not make me feel sexual but they're investing in something

that matters to me I know I didn't use to understand this um my wife would have things like

hey can we go out and you know do a project together or can we go out in the yard and I didn't know

that that was intimate for her and it helped her want to be sexual I was like wow would we do

why would we do the garden or whatever right but when I learned to invest in that stuff um that

was her what I have feeling cared for prioritize it was maybe equivalent to to showing up and being

engaged sexually and the mistake I used to make was um I remember specifically my wife she's

into ballroom dancing and I would go and I kind of be like I don't know not fun to be with

and like I don't know right and I realized like I'm doing the same thing that I didn't want her to

do in in the intimacy right so I learned to change my attitude and be like hey I can be invested

in ballroom I can learn about the stuff and I can be a fun date to be with when we do that thing I

can I can show up and make it enjoyable just the same I want you to do you know with with sexual

intimacy does that make sense absolutely yeah yeah but I got it wrong for a long time I'll admit

no we're just in fact we're just having this conversation this morning she's like hey I want to

go to this concert do you want to go and I'm like I don't really know the band I'm not really

interested but I he's like no no no you said you go with friends well process you were talking

about going with friends but I said if it's important to you it's important to me and

that's what you said like today not yet for me yeah take a moment to get there that's that's

not the only one with a girl and I invited him because he didn't want to go I'm like your bus

kill so I mean they should start because like everything you said on this like that's so good

that's so good I should be like it sounds like a comment on oh well you have this recorded so okay

but I think I want to reiterate on what you said is when it starts to feel obligatory like it's

every three freaking days and if you don't then I feel rejected like in our life it's a life it's

like you just turn it into a chore for me like because I don't get initiate because you can't

make it long enough for me to initiate that's just a lot of the problem we've had in our marriage

I'm like you can't make it today five I'm not gonna initiate because you're gonna be the one

initiating all the time you know what I mean so it's just like I think if husbands can be a little more

patient because they don't understand us and we don't understand them whatever and it goes both

ways I get that um if they can be more patient and be like okay like I like we've had this

discussion a lot of times if you want it to be intimate like wait till I really want it you know

I probably have it right but this can't get far enough to get there and so sometimes we need to just

I don't know I've lost a say on this I love that you are so open um and I'll be I'll be open

do like I mean I I understand this therapeutically I don't know how to help people therapeutically and

I've done a lot of work on myself truthfully I did a lot of sexual damage in my relationship I did a

lot of um you know minimizing her needs I did a lot of pressure I did I mean I did a lot wrong

and I I create a lot of damage and then truthfully I looked at pornography and I I blamed her at

some point I justified it um which was even more damaging right and so I I understand this

from a clinical standpoint but I also had to do a lot of work and I we really transparent here

our relationship hit a point where I kind of thought maybe sex was broken forever like

we might never have sex again kind of thing um and I had to really wrestle with myself to decide

what's more important to me is sex more important to me which I do think sexual intimacy is an

important and valuable part of relationship or is my wife more valuable to me and I was a

wrestle for me and let's give a little background I have a I have a uncle that's quadriplegic um

he passed a few years ago but um you mean paralyzed from the neck down wow they got married knowing

that intimacy was like sexual intimacy with I mean it wasn't a possibility necessarily right um and

and he chose her and she chose him I mean he he had no choice frankly right um but I think I

because of this experience I had to really wrestle for a time and I came into a place um let's call it

you know consciously first where I said I will choose a sexless marriage I don't think it's healthy

I don't think it's best but I will do the work to get to a place where I can manage yeah I'm not

gonna give up on it but where I can manage that we might not have sex for years and I will still

love her and I will learn to enjoy the other parts of love and the truth is I I got there mentally

and I probably got there emotionally later than I wanted to right it was a real heart shift

but I did get to that place where I said look if if I did so much damage that we can't ever have

what I believe is available what we're talking about here um then then that's what it is and I

still choose you and we can so create the best marriage we can now I'll speak you know

to a key point here I don't think that's the right word to do I believe in healing and I believe

man and woman both have some healing to do I would suggest most couples experience sexual trauma

of one type or another um my favorite definition of trauma actually is anything less than nurturing

okay we are built to be nurtured we are built to feel loved we are built to be seen and so for any of

us in our relationship when we're not feeling nurtured you know emotionally spiritually sexually

it feels like a trauma and so the place where I would tend to go with most couples I say look

sexuality is meant to be a beautiful gift between the two of you um how are we gonna get there where

you both feel it as beautiful if your past experiences have been you know disconnected or hurtful

or whatever and that was I mean that's my journey of becoming a therapist was we were broken from

the beginning we don't have a we don't have a honeymoon period of like it was so amazing in the

beginning it was off from day one for a variety of reasons and it was painful for both of us and

we both tried for a long long time and we still continue to work but what I do know is I do know

sexuality heals I believe it's from God but I also believe there's let's call it an adversarial

type of sexuality and human nature type of sexuality and so when couples learn what it's intended for

which I think is what you to describe where it's like it's a it's a gift it's a gift it's a sacrifice

it's it's effort it's work um but then you find that beautiful place together and it strengthens

everything and then you come back to it again um that's worth the effort in my opinion right and

I remember I'll kind of turn it back to you too after this last thought I remember hearing someone

say sexuality was a sacrament I was like I don't I don't understand what that means and at the time

I was like really struggling with like sexuality being part of spirituality because of my own

you know background or whatever um and I started like what does the sacrament mean like and I

started to think like okay go to church and you partake of a sacrament and it's this partaking of

right and I started realizing that's what they meant like sexuality is two people show up

naked emotionally spiritually physically and like you can like access me I'm offering me

to you and it is this symbolic thing because right here you're doing the act of love making

you're you're being there for each other but that whole giving idea is is the whole marriage that's

the idea of the whole marriage is like I'm yours I'm here for you not a slave not like some obligatory

thing um it's meant to be a gift and so when we start to see our spouse has a gift and what they're

willing to give as a gift that's where I see sexuality changing couples um and that's where I think

couples make that shift to um our love making is it's not about high intensity it's not about

frequency like this is what the research shows is frequency intensity you know the need for like

novelty or laundry or like all that starts to fade away when a couple can find I see you and I

feel seen by you and that felt good does that make sense lots on that that's a lot again sorry

no well it comes back to like again the emotional side of things right when couples I mean we

do pulls all the time and when couples are emotionally connected a hundred percent of the time

that you know unless there's a physical condition like their their sexual intimacy is way better

right and so um I mean those two things correlate and we talk about those things all the time you

know I mean I think we just did an article too like why emotional intimacy comes first you know

I would like to just end with saying like couple tips for both sides um husbands can

and just be patient and realize that it's okay if she's willing in a positive way she's choosing

to be intimate for the marriage be okay with that so be okay with that right like that's that's

a choice I love how you talked about that like you're you're getting chosen so that's a great

thing right even if she's like not it's not the top of my mind and I'm not the one always initiating

that's okay having said that though you can tell a difference when a wife absolutely even if she

that's not a first thing on her mind that she is willing to do it versus a wife that's just like

absolutely doesn't want anything to do with it like a husband can fill those things right and I

love what Austin said is absolutely you know it's not about her jumping up and down and ripping

your clothes off it's just about her even just saying like we've talked about all the time like

just about even just saying I'm willing and I do want to connect with you um again but if it's a

moment where she's splitably not in it then stop the moment and say I will wait for you to be in it

if you put that on the woman and you say I I want you to be in it let me know when you're gonna be

into it that's that is very masculine yeah and not going forward with it be like I can tell that

you're not here tonight I want you to be here tonight and let me know what I can do tomorrow to make

this a better a better day right right like women will love that and you know I think I think

maybe one of our next episodes should be how do we how do we heal our individual sexuality right

um I had a long struggle what I'd call it taming my sexuality um the analogy I've heard before

is like a wild you know bucking bronco stallion um I remember actually going to a horse place and

seeing a wild stallion and this guy trying to tame I was like it's a lot of work right and over the

years I've learned to tame my sexuality it's not that it quieted I remember I remember times where

I was like God please help me have no desire yeah that still isn't there it's not that I don't

have desire I have a high desire but what I've learned to do is harness that and this is a really

valuable skill for men if you can how harness the power of your sexuality right men will do a lot

to get sexuality I mean they'll stay up all night watching porn though have long conversations

though men will expend energy to get sexuality if you can funnel that into the things that matter to

your wife right that that changes things and so both taming from high desire but also taming from

low desire it's it's it's both and it's bringing this to a conscious place of yeah there's a

biological component I don't want to have sex because of biology yes there's a you know rejection

component I don't want to have sex for that I want to have it as an expression of love and exactly

what you said Amy when a man or a woman can see I'm choosing you even when I am not super excited

for sex that's that's not a rejection of the other that's a high choosing of the other that's

that's a real gift and a sacrifice to be honest and and I do believe sacrifice is part of

part of love in an healthy relationship and so for all of us like I would say working past

I often call it the human nature and getting into it with a spiritual right if we can go hey what's

the human you know the emotional part of me what's the reactive part of me what's the biological part

and then what's the me that shows up from a place of love and is my spouse doing that and then

those times where maybe it's not as intense they actually become much more valuable because it's

felt as oh like this is your gift of you to me um even when you maybe didn't want it and this

will just add this last piece I know a lot of you know I just goes both ways but let's use women

in this example where they'll come into sex and say I don't I don't really need anything for me

kind of thing um but then they let themselves get into it or they do a quick year whatever like

if a guy can see that is yeah maybe I want it to be like crazy passionate or I wanted you know

the extras or whatever um but really separate the behavior from the gift then you leave sex feeling

fulfilled you feel cared for you feel connected um and yeah we should probably have a conversation

of what happens when you have sex and you leave not fulfilled and how do you because if you're

going to put the energy into it together and I'll be really transparent I create a lot of damage

by my wife doing the things we're talking and I never felt you know I didn't see it the way I do

now and it took a lot of work to get to that place and a lot of reflection and a lot of truthfully

was called repentance where I went back and said I got this wrong and I you know she's been

compassionate and like I was a 23 year old or I was you know like whatever um but I believe in

sexual healing and I see it all the time and again a lot of times that sexual healing comes when

the emotional healing and connection comes back so there's hope everybody there's hope

I just wanted to add in at the end because I feel like we're kind of men tame it tame it whatever

like I really do believe though especially like thinking about this letter and some of the stuff

that we've gone through that like I it's marriage changing when like I put effort in like

initiating man when you're not in the mood and you initiate like whoo that is hard but it's like

world changing so I'm just thinking to the women out there they're like have the lower drive

they're in this situation and it does kind of feel like a chore sometimes like try to like it all

comes down to our positive mindset to like we literally have to like you said turn on that

sexuality what what do I need in the bedroom to make it more fun like when we start like pulling out

the V ring like that changed everything for me because it felt good the entire time not just those

five seconds right like what is it that's keeping you from like not wanting it not enjoying it um

also I mean could for a wife like she's that I'd be enjoying it the whole time and or having

orgasm every single time for her to like really desire too so you got to look deep at that

and second if she is physically exhausted maybe she works out the at the house or maybe

you're kids and she's and she's just whatever it is I've been in both areas she is literally exhausted

like what can you do take off her plate like the emotional just like that's key because of a

wife and the feeling connected to you she can initiate and she ain't going to be into it like that's

just bags and the next one I wanted to say is that I forgot I'm known for that um just

just be understanding of each other like you've got to have these conversations that's why we created

so many of our products and stuff is because this has been a really big thing in our marriage we've

had to have countless countless hours of conversations around this topic and and trying to understand

him and trying to understand me and trying to be patient with each other and what do you need more

of outside the bedroom what do you need you know what I mean like just that connection it takes a

lot of work and effort but it's worth it when you can both both have that ultimate to say like

yeah and you know people that everyone or most everyone listening to this podcast are experiencing

real life things just like what we're talking about Amy and I are no difference you know the

difference is we've really chosen to work on things and we have a great marriage but it doesn't

mean everything's perfect we continuously have these types of conversations and talk about things

and her needs and my needs but and because we're willing to talk about those things we have a great

marriage but um you know the reason why we share what we do and talk about what we do in the things

that you know we go through as well is if you are willing to talk about it communicate it and work

on it um you really can transform your relationship no matter what and and but it continues to take

hard work and it continues to take effort and we're gonna have to work on things until the day we

die but we're both willing to do that because we know when you have a great marriage there really is

nothing better I mean that's what we call it ultimate intimacy and so I was gonna I remembered my

third thing if you have 30 minutes to or an hour to go to lunch with friends go work out at the gym

go for a run go shopping like just the things that a lot of women choose to do during the day maybe

when they're off work or whatever like scroll your phone for an hour like I really truly believe

deep in my heart that like if I have time to do those things that I'm choosing I'm prioritizing

on my list there is no excuse for me to be like rejecting 30 minutes in the evening like I told

myself about that time I'm like well you played a pickleball for an hour today and you chose to do

this but now you're too tired for your own husband like I really I mean I know that's a whole

little podcast you know we've already talked about this but choosing each other and choosing your

marriage no matter how tired you both are like is marriage changing and sometimes we need to

read look at what our day is looking like and why we're so exhausted and and we just barely did

an episode just the two of us on like 10 health benefits of orgasms when you're exhausted headache

don't feel good like all those health benefits like try and learn like how can I learn to

love this and even if it's not on my mind how can I figure out how to enjoy this because if I

hadn't done that we've been a whole different place yeah okay prioritizing your marriage is

key here because with if you read her letter she's like exhausted from work she's dealing with

some kid stuff you know the kids you know sleeping in her bed once in a while like set some serious

boundaries be like hey like I want you to feel loved I want to feel loved like what boundaries do

we need to set with our day with our day so that we can not feel like 20 minutes is too much for

marriage right I want to say one last thing that I'll let you finish up Austin too um I don't think

people realize the power of just like positive thinking right like how many you know how many

problems or how many issues could be resolved just by the way we think if you if you're looking at

sex as a chore you're gonna look immediately that's gonna be negative after negative after negative

and at any time you hear the word sex it's gonna be negative if you start thinking it as a positive

like hey this is a great way to connect even though I don't desire it it should be a priority uh

here's the benefits like I think so much of just changing our our mindset or our opinion on something

can completely change uh how how we move things and that has a lot to do with that I agree

it takes both people to have that positive mindset right like spouse plays big into that for sure

you know for for for most things and maybe this something you and the three of us talk about and

make available like there's some really valuable ways to do what you're talking about like one

identify like what are my beliefs and emotions around sexuality most of those were born

in childhood experiences that were non-sexual frankly um and then early sexual experiences which

there's a whole variety of those right um a lot of people have experienced really traumatic things

sexually that even in a loving relationship it's still hard to go there um and so one of the things

that I see really valuable is for someone to one get into like what is my core belief

about sexuality and is that serving me and so one of the shifts that's really valuable for people

to start to go my sexuality meaning my personal sexuality is part of my my spirituality it's part of

my development as a person and if it's underdeveloped which doesn't matter higher low desire both

of those are typically um underdeveloped in a way meaning when I say the high desires underdeveloped

that's just happening to you too high desire low desire is kind of happening to you right

the development component is to go I have sexuality it may not naturally be turning on how do I do

that where it is a regular part of my thought process my emotional desire and that work is not

super complex it is having the willingness to go in and look at self and then you know a lot of

things we do therapeutically is to help like let's disconnect fear from sexuality or what's heal

what's happening between um so many female clients have helped me learn this that

for women just life in general is way more that vulnerable it's way way more unsafe

sexuality is very vulnerable for a woman not just emotionally but physically right like someone's

entering your body like that's different than us man and when a man can understand like

this is vulnerable for her I need her to feel super safe and if she's not women will push past that

and like I know know a ton of women that will have sex to avoid a fighter whatever that doesn't

equal intimacy that equals I was protecting myself through sex there's a lot of dynamics here

that we can talk about how to heal it but I would say one of the most valuable things if we're

talking ultimate intimacy and this is rarely talked about is how does a man embody masculinity

and a woman embody femininity and those they it's like you need part of each other to get there

right but what I see is when a man embodies his masculinity which means he's in this kind of

protector role and a woman feels safe she's much more able to access that femininity now that

nurturing availability that compassionate kind of life giving aspect of femininity men feel that

life giving through sexuality from their wife the most when a wife shows up for sexuality like

you're talking about it is literally life giving for a man like I'm alive again like I I went to

battle and I you know bot dragons and I got all these wounds but then I was connected with you

and like I'm ready to go back to war yeah that makes that analogy so we can talk about how do you

embody that that's probably valuable you know one for us to put on the on the docket so and we

don't always feel the same way so we just have to like learn to understand each other right yeah

well great episode I think yeah I think we should follow up the next one with what we discussed

but hopefully this episode was beneficial to all of you listening out there you can see why we love

having Austin on he's amazing hopefully this can you guys can sit down and have these conversations

and have the intimacy both emotional and physically that you've always wanted and it takes work

but that's okay things the things that take work are often a lot more valuable so yeah absolutely

so again we appreciate all of you listening to the podcast and until next time

you