#458 The Silent Victims of Domestic Abuse, With Tim From Stand Again

I've been listening to your podcast for a while now and I love the content and the brutal honesty.

As an attorney who fought against COVID mandates, I follow a lot of dissenting medical and legal

voices and read a lot of great stacks. But your posts and podcasts are amongst my favorite.

Thank you for all you do, legal glass. Thank you so much for that lovely comment and thank you

for subscribing to my substack. Hellgy. Hi Amid all the best and lots of love from Iceland.

I've been researching all this stuff since around 2009 and I have to say that your podcast is one

of the best in the space so far and I fully support your change to start charging for every episode.

I didn't even know that you had to pay well before. If you're ever in Iceland, please come by and

visit me in my brewery in hell. Wow. Well, I hope I do get to visit Iceland and I'll definitely

give your shit if I come. And, Joe, I believe you're one of the few out there that is not controlled by

ego, arrogance, pride, money or coercion. It is truly humbling to discover how much of our lives

are based on lies, which we've failed to question. And to everyone else who's signed up and

become a supporter on Spotify and on substack, I just want to say thank you so much and welcome

you part of a wonderful tribe and you keep this show alive and I'm most grateful.

Okay, let's get into the show. You are listening to the dogmatic podcast. This show is 100%

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Now, let's get on with the show.

Folks, I'm really excited to share this with you. I'm launching my two retreats this summer,

a time to reconnect. Over the past few weeks, I've been talking about what I believe is the real

pandemic, the pandemic of disconnection, not just physical, but emotional, psychological and

so many of you have written to me telling me you feel it too surrounded by people but yet how

somehow still alone, wanting deeper conversations, more honesty, real connection with people who

understand you, finding your tribe and the truth is many of us are searching for spaces where we

can just be ourselves again, where we can speak openly, laugh really and not feel like we are

walking on eggshells all the time. That's why my friend Kasha and I have created the connection

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create something really special, that's not just a weekend away, but a genuine experience of

reconnection, connection to yourself, connection to others, connection to nature, connection to truth.

Over three days, we're going to share meals, movement, nature, conversation, play, a lot of people

don't play anymore and real time together, no masks, no performance, just presence. At the very

beginning, Kasha and I made a very simple pinky promise to do this with integrity, honesty and

heart and to create something really truly meaningful. We'll be running the two retreats this year

from the 26th to 28th of June and from the 4th to 6th of September and the countryside and heart

for sure just outside London. It's going to be small intimate groups. If you feel the call,

we would love to welcome you. You can find full details and book your place via my

sub-stack and the website is docmalic.substack.com. Look for the newsletter, it is time to reconnect,

the connection retreat is here. In about a week, the retreat will be open to all, not just my

paid subscribers and you'll be able to find the booking details at docmalic.com. Sometimes the

most important thing we can do is simply come back to ourselves and to each other. Plus love,

docmalic. Boy Tim. Yes, you most definitely can. I've had quite a few Tim's actually,

so I had Tim beat the reset. Have you ever heard of him? I haven't, but Tim's a really strong

powerful name already. But yeah, that's the last name of this response to that.

I wouldn't be happy. It's not the most powerful name in my head. If I was to conjure up the most

powerful masculine name ever, Tim. No. Anyway, so Tim beat the reset is an Australian. That's why

I'm mentioning him. You should look into him. He's a great guy. His podcast is coming out today.

It's the second time he's been on. And he's and he was Tim beat the reset. You know the great

reset. Yeah, he's he's talking about how you can preserve your wealth and the BS of money and

how you should invest in silver and gold. Anyway, as a count, it reached 100,000 on Instagram and

they just cancelled it, like literally just cancelled it or no appeal, nothing. And he's clearly

doing something right because, you know, he's ruffling feathers. He's upsetting. Yeah,

it happened. And then I've got another tip. Hopefully he said the word good day, at least two or

three times it is still. I don't think he did. He was here in the studio. He was visiting

and he popped by. Yeah. And then how are you today? Good day to you too. That's good evening for

you, isn't it? Yeah, that's just rolled off the tongue for you too. I'm not, I'm not sharks in

the water. Anyway, listen, that's random. I know. I think that was from neighbors. There's sharks

in the water or something like that. Anyway, I live in the night for a couple of years and I

guarantee you there were two things that always came up. One was a good day and the other one

immediately following it was, do you watch neighbors? I'm only talking about watch

neighbors because I had to get up to it. Yeah, mate. I used to watch neighbors as a kid. Don't

ask me why. It was just a thing we did. And I used to be like, so jealous of you guys.

You had all these beautiful blue skies and in Glasgow where, you know, I was born and brought up.

It was just great, perpetual, great. And you watch neighbors and everyone's in the sun.

And they got their, you know, blonde hair and in the beach and then in the water and there's

blue sky, blue water. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Let's go down to Greenock Beach where it's a

gray beach with gray water and gray skies. Awesome. No, no, no, no, this is a very accurate

reflection of the daily life here. But I'd like it today. I've heard the skies there aren't

quite what they used to be. So I worked out in Sydney for six months and I loved the big sky.

Like, you had clouds, but they're so high up and you had the most beautiful sunsets and sunrises

and, you know, and now like someone in Sydney was telling me like, he can't remember the last

time they had a nice blue sky. It's perpetually gray and they've got chem trails and everything.

Have you noticed that? It's not that bad, I don't think. I think we tend to have more sharp,

like it's it's a nice day for a day and then it's happy for a while. It is another nice day for a

day and then it's happy for a while. It didn't back in the 90s. It was like every day used to be.

Absolutely. This is what I mean. So there has been a change of some sort. Anyway,

some people might be wondering why your camera's off. Do you want to just tell the audience like,

what is the issue? Why, why are you not willing to show your face? Like, I think this is relevant

to what we're talking about. Yeah, and there's a couple of reasons for that one, actually. One is

it's not about me, but that's the first reason. Like, this topic, which is about

supporting male victims, it's not about me. It's about, you know, how do you support male victims

along that particular day? The second is, you know, God damn ugly, aren't you? It's just going to be

off-pitting. It's not even my mother loves me. It's those nose rings and that blue hair of yours.

It's too much, man. And I'm being Aussie. It's the mallet, you know, the whole lot.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. What were you saying the second reason is what?

genuine fear. So, I would prefer my ex partner, who, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this as

we, you know, progress, had no, no awareness that I run this group. And unfortunately, I do have

a slightly unique look, not the blue hair, not the mallet. It's the nose rings. So, like, why do you live

in fear? Like, one of the things I always say is we should never live in fear. We should never

be fearful. Like fear no one but God. That's true. But it's not just me. I have kids as well. And there's

no way that I want this to start to shadow across their particular journey. So, I've tried to

shield them as much as humanly possible throughout their entire life. From, you know, and they can

will probably get into this. But when we were in that relationship, you know, getting out of that

relationship, tried to shield them from that as much. And, and tried to not even raise the topic

with them when they asked questions, because they're doing this, it's necessarily asked questions

off. And why are we separated dad? What's going on dad? And I'll have conversations with them,

which are, you know, things were a bit difficult. But why go much further than that?

Okay. But listen, I wanted to say, I'm a great believer that human beings are pretty much the same

everywhere. I mean, there are differences, cultural, religious, for sure. I mean, there are some

differences, but fundamentally at our core, we're fricking the same. And the same applies for male

and female. I mean, again, there are differences on hormones and all that kind of stuff. I appreciate

women and men are very, you know, men are from Mars, women are from Venus. But again, our

fundamental wants and desires are the same. And we're human beings, first and foremost. And

when we're talking about things today about male victims, that's not to say it's only males

that are victims, females are victims too. But I think the reason why you set up your group is that

there's a lot of attention and support for female victims and recognition for female victims.

But not so much for men. Is that right?

It is. And when I went looking for support for myself, more often than not, I'd get either

we're not gay for you, type of response, which is, you know, going knocking on the doors of

all the usual groups going, hey, I need help. I need to figure out what I need to do.

How do I get out of this? And the response would be, I really set up for women and children.

All there'd been no response whatsoever, and it would be just like talking into a void.

And then in Australia, in particular, when you go looking for resources, the first thing you

almost always find is you as a perpetrator. Men are perpetrators, men are perpetrators, men are

perpetrators. And this narrative persists everywhere. There's a very famous men's group that

operates here in Australia. It's like the kind of primary phone line you call and you type in,

you know, male victim and you jump onto their website and you get the male victim page.

And then the first eight things that they tell you about is he's had a managed to stress. He's

had a managed to anger. He's had a stop stream in yelling. It's like, no, no, no, no. I'm the male

victim here. How do I find support and resources? So I was really, very, very lucky in myself,

because I ended up by pure chance coming across the psychologist. He was also a bloke who understood

male victimization, coercive control, and he really helped me through that process.

And when I popped out at the back end of all of that, broken and shattered as you do as you go

through that process, I kind of went, no, I, if I, you know, was the one guy who had

cure lack and came across the psychologist who helped, I can guarantee there's a lot of other

men out there who were just as lost as I was when they're in the middle of it, which tended to be.

So you just, okay, you've just published, I get that totally. You've put, and you know, a lot of

my listeners will know I was kind of in a not very healthy first marriage. And same, I don't want to

go into too much. I don't, I don't want to, I don't want her to hear this and get upset and then

come for me because that's the person she would be and would do. But it was painful. It was a very

painful marriage. And, you know, people, people always make it look like it's the guy that's the bad guy

and is the horrible, aggressive man and it's all his fault. And even when I am, you know,

me ended that marriage, I lost pretty much all my friends. They couldn't understand how this sweet,

beautiful young lady could be the horrible person. It had to be me. I was like, great. So, you know,

I had to start all over again with my friendship group and everything. It was like, it was quite an

eye-opener, anyway. So, let's talk about. It's okay on. No, I'll just say it's quite,

quite sad. What you described is exactly what I went through as well. And I'm very sorry you had

that experience. And I think there's a nuance in there where you yourself also support that

narrative when you're in the relationship about, oh no, everything's okay because you

feel over how she would react if you start to talk about other people about what's going on.

And you feed that narrative going on. And I'm like, you know, everything's okay and you know,

I know everything's great at home and this is wonderful. And you'd convince yourself of that as

much as you possibly could along that way. And when you do start to talk to people, men in particular,

when they start to talk to people, there's this sense of assumed agency that a man has.

So, if he was in that relationship, you just go, well, he must have chosen it. He must have,

you know, been okay. It must have been something, you know, perfectly within his agency to choose

because he has more inherent power than a female. So, if he was in that relationship, it must not

have been that bad. Whereas that's not the truth at all. Like, more often than not, you're

for one of a bit of term, gasslet for worst, convinced that you belong in that position. And it's not

right at all. But I, yeah. So I just, so I was going to just quickly say, so yes, yes, partly,

yes, you're right about me and my relationship in that sense. I agree. One, I went into that

relationship with very poor self-worth and that's childhood trauma. And so I never thought I was

good enough. I didn't think I was lovable. I don't think it was worthy. I thought it was always

going to be rejected and abandoned. So that's not a good place to go into a relationship. I'll be

honest with you. Okay. And then when you meet someone who can then, you know, abuse you and

coerce you, if you're like that, then you're going to take it. And, you know, you know, you know,

anyone with decent self-worth would be like, on day one, I'm not putting up with this. Bye bye.

You know, but I put up with it for those reasons. But another reason I want to just tell you is

way back, because, you know, I got married. It was a long, long time ago. And at that time,

I was a Muslim. And, you know, I was quite a practicing Muslim. I'm not freaking fundamentalist.

But you know what I mean? Like, you know, I believed in Islam and, you know, everything. And

there's good things in it. There are good things in Islam, you know, just like there's good things

in every religion, you know, it's a fact. I just, I gave up with organized religion. I actually

thank the first marriage. And I just believe in God now. But I think every religion still has

good things in it. So the one of the, one of the passages that, you know, I remember reading

in early my marriage was Surah Al-Bukhra, 2187. And it goes like this. And it's talking about

married couples. They are a clothing, a covering and garment for you and you are a clothing,

covering and garment for them. And what this metaphor was meant to signify that, that espouses

provide mutual protection, comfort, modesty and intimacy. And you act as a shield for each other's

faults and a source of beauty and closeness. You know, and I remembered that very carefully.

I was like, you don't go airing your dirty laundry with everyone else. Not even, and when you're

in an abusive relationship, you kind of get isolated. So you get isolated from your French,

get isolated from your family. And then you don't want to talk about these problems because then you

think you're, you're, you're just weak, pathetic, failing. You just want to work harder at making

the relationship work. And then sometimes you spend your whole lifetime trying that and getting

nowhere. And sometimes, do you know what? Something breaks and you go, I've had enough. And that's

what happened to me. That awakening moment, which is, you know, something breaks and you have

an awakening moment, it's really hard for a lot of people. And it's typically the first step on

a journey that's just as equally hard, like getting yourself out of that environment is probably one

of the hardest things you'll do, yeah, especially when it's psychological abuse. And as you said,

your thing convinced that you are no good, you're useless, you're the source of all problems,

and you have to break that conditioning post your awakening moment. And it's, um,

it takes a level of effort, I think, that is hard to appreciate and hard to understand,

because when you look at it from the outside, you just go, well, why don't you just leave? Like,

why don't you just leave? I would never have put up in that. Like, what's going on? And you don't

necessarily realize it's actually, um, it's the old frog in the pot kind of scenarios, more often

than not where, um, these relationships might have started off looking absolutely fantastic.

That'll be beautiful, you know, and myself, for example, um, my ex-wife, absolutely stunning

woman, absolutely stunning woman still is today. Um, and people would go, Jesus, mate, you're

winning at life. And that's what I genuinely thought along the way. Um, and then it takes time,

you know, that, that abuse slowly starts and you kind of test, you used to test to see how far

she could take it and when we're a little bit too far, the sudden issue was going, oh, you know,

sorry, sorry, I'll make the, you know, make everything better and all that kind of stuff. And then it

gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse at

the time. And, um, I don't know how it's due, but I know when I was getting to the back end of

that relationship, prior, my own awakening moment, um, things were occurring that I would never

in a billion years have accepted it the first year. But in year 10, it was just normal. It was just

completely normal. That was 10, year 10. Yeah. Wow. And it was just normal. It was just, um,

oh, you know, you know, she's, I used to do this thing. Um, I used to call it going nuclear,

where, um, she would have this, um, I'll give you a silly example. So, uh, she wanted her cup

of tea made in a particular way. So the way her cup of tea had to be made was you have to be

standing right next to the kettle and the moment the kettle boiled, like the, the millisecond the

kettle boiled, you have to pour it into the cup with the tea bag. Then you have to set a timer for

exactly three minutes, then take the tea bag out exactly three minutes after, not a minute,

not, you know, 10 seconds to late or 10 seconds to early, then put it, you know, right amount of

milk in it and then go hand it to her immediately straight away. Don't delight.

And that's how I like, that's how I like my tea made. Of course, you know,

it's the only way to do it. I swear. The only thing I would say, what you're talking about,

the only thing I would add is the, the, the, while it's stewing, while the tea bag's stewing,

I like to put a lid over the mug so it doesn't lose its heat and stays. So I think she's a bit slack.

I'd be a little bit more slack. But if you didn't do it exactly that way,

all hell would break. We should go nuclear and going nuclear would be

pure rage, where absolutely anything and everything would come the sort of way you stand,

the way you smell, the way you kind of walk, you know, everything you could possibly think of,

she would just be streaming and yelling about, you know, just destroy everything you possibly

couldn't, you know, wait. And that would be, yeah, okay, that's just another day. Yeah.

At the time for me, it was like, okay, that's just another day. Nothing unusual about this,

what's what's the way that because it being slowly built up over the decade until it got to a point

where it was just another day. Wow. Right. Let's talk about your book then. Let's, you know,

coercive control and every tactic explained, can you just talk about it? Like, what are the tactics?

What are the coercive controls? And are you sure you just weren't being a dick? Did you deserve all this?

I'll talk about the book. I'll predicate it first is when I was in my own recovery journey,

like you had started earlier on where you said, I walked into the relationship with childhood

wounds and with some insecurities. When I started my own journey for healing, a lot of the material

I was reading or kind of was like, oh, she did this, she did that, she did this, she did that,

and it would muddle up kind of conversation around triggers versus the way you would start to

behave like forning and fighting all this kind of stuff and what the actual person did.

So my first protocol with this book was to break it down and go, no, I really need to get a

really crystal clear understanding of what did she do? What did it hit within me? Like, what was it?

Was it my childhood wounds? Was it, you know, poor conditioning? Was it cultural understanding?

Like, happy wife happy life? What was it that she hit within me? And then how did I behave afterwards?

Was I forning? Was I fighting? Was I just giving her more and more time and more and more effort?

So I ended up with this framework I designed called CTI. So tacked it trigger and impact.

And it allowed me to really start to break out what exactly was she doing? What behaviors was she doing?

What was, you know, hyper criticism looked like? What did gaslighting look like? What did rage look like?

What did parental alienation look like? What did, you know, and enabling legal bodies look like?

What did maternal superiority look like? I could actually kind of make that clearer for myself

without getting muddled up around and I was forning and I did this and I did that and it was because of

my childhood wounds and all that kind of stuff. So I ended up writing it, I think it was like over 100

tactics in there, of course, of control. Dominely is just making a working through what the hell

happened in my life and this started well before I started to stand again. And from there I started

to build it into a real clear taxonomy and let me actually get this crystal clear because when I

go looking for material on it, it's really not that very clear exactly what the person does and why

it works and then how the person behaves afterwards. So I structured that out. It took me a decade

and a bit to live for one of the better terms and about three years to write. And there's

probably only one tactic in there that I haven't personally gone through or make quasi control

so it's all predominantly my lived experience. Supplemented by my therapist at the time,

who sorry, he's still my therapist, who helped me kind of make sense of what was going on in my

life and my work that I do with Balvin's abuse. The intent is to support clinicians and legal

practitioners to be able to better understand coercive control and family violence. It's written

from a male lens, which is quite deliberate. That's what I understand, that's what I know.

So a lot of the way it's written says she did this and then he did this as a response. So it's

that kind of pronounced all the way through. And a lot of the helping understand why it works is

all from a male lens. You know, it works because there's these popular expectations on men,

it works because males tend to come in with these types of mindset.

Can you give us some examples then? Can you give us some examples then?

Yeah, of the tactics that they use. Just break it down.

Yeah, so I'll give you an example through a TTI chain. So a classic example is I'll go something

soft. So stonewalling, the abuse of personal stonewalling. So stonewalling is that they refuse

to engage. And that's in an abusive environment is typically attacked to get your victim to start

to porn. So on a TCI chain, they are stonewalling. It triggers within you a fear of abandonment,

which is typically a form of childhood wound. And as an impact, you start to fall and you go,

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, what do I need to do? What do I need to do to kind of get everything

back together? So that's a kind of classical TTI chain. Then you might have things like

maternal superiority where it kind of establishes I am the mum. I know best for children.

You are a dad. You don't know best because you're not maternal. So that's a form of maternal superiority.

And it triggers in the men, the cultural conditioning around similar types of narratives.

And the impact is you withdraw. So I will withdraw and I will defer to you when it comes to parents.

That's another question.

Keep going. Keep going, buddy. No, seriously, don't stop. Keep going.

You want me to keep going through the whole book?

People, look, can I just say something? Guess always worry. Oh, if I give all the information,

the book, no one's going to buy the book. It's the opposite. The more information you give,

the more trusted you are as a source of more people want that as a book. Then trust me,

I know. I've had so many people on my show that do this. The more you talk about it, the better.

If you keep it just like, oh, I'm going to just give a little snippet. It's not. No, keep going.

Tell me more. What are the examples? It was more. I've got well over a hundred of these things.

Oh, you don't need to do a hundred. But give me a good 10.

Yeah. So then if I, I'll do them off the cuff rather than because I actually got the book today,

blue, don't know. It came in the mail today. So the migration.

But if you look at say, let's go a really obvious one, which is reactive abuse.

So reactive abuse is something that most men are familiar with.

So reactive abuse in the TTI chain is a stack version. So other than you will be insulted,

for example, there's a form of reactive abuse. Insults themselves will tend to trigger a response

in you where you get upset. You go, hey, this is damaging to my sense of self-worth and your

impact will be, no, I'm going to respond in a particular way. And that might go to you a few times.

And I'll continue to do that for a while until you get to this point where you go, no,

if this and that you start screaming and yelling. And then they flip the street and go, I never did

this. You're the one who's screaming and yelling. You've got anger management issues,

so that's a classic one that tends to come up quite often with men.

And then another one, that one sounds familiar. You're bringing, you're bringing back some memories.

My ex-wife used to do this thing, it's called Darvo, which she was absolutely excellent at it.

The Darvo is a stack version where you've got a number of different tactics all at once.

So you've got it in sequence. So they'll deny, which is the D and Darvo. Then they'll attack you,

then they'll reverse the victim and offender role. So you'll come to them, for example. I'd say this

to my wife, for example, I go, hey, I really didn't like the way you're insulting me in front of

my friends. And then, I never did that. So that's denial. And then attack, which is, you always do

blah, blah, blah to me. And then reverse the victim and offender, I'm so upset by what you did.

You never apologize for anything and before you realize what's going on, suddenly you're apologizing

for having, having done this thing. And my ex-wife was, I have never met someone who's more

adept at Darvo than my ex-wife, you know, flipped around and apologizing for things constantly.

But then go back to some of the tactics. So minimizing your thoughts, opinions and values,

that's a very common tactic as well. So if you raise a topic and say, I think we should do X,

then a user will tend to minimize that. You don't know what you're talking about.

I'll look, this isn't really your area of expertise. You don't know what you're talking about.

Leave this to me. I will do it. And that tends to trigger a fear response,

because you know how that conversation tends to go. And you'll just defer. You go, okay,

I'll leave that for you. And then you'll have other tactics like threats.

So let's talk threats for a second, because threats are really, really fascinating ones, where

an abuser will threaten you with punitive action. I will take the kids. I will do this. I will

do that as a response. And especially for parents, that threat becomes quite significant.

And it triggers within you, obviously, this tier of loss. I'm going to lose access to my kids,

and you go back to, you know, warning what do I need to do to make this? And the problem with

those types of threats is they tend to be quite credible. And then the other one, I'll tell you about

this one. I mean, because I think it's, I'm it, I'm it, I'm it, I'm sorry.

Restriction of space and liberty denial. So restriction of space is an abusive partner will tend

to dominate a house and dominate the place. So in my house, for example, there was no safe space

that was mine. So she had the living room. She watched the TV. I was never allowed to sit down

and watch the TV. I would be relegated to this kind of small little area within my office,

but then she'd kind of dominate that as well, which is, oh, this is the only clean room. I've

got to do this and then, you know, to dominate that. So restriction of space. And you would end up

with the sense of, you know, getting less and less agents like I don't have

placed within my own home. Like this isn't my house. I don't have a place to

I go where I'm allowed to go and I'm going where I'm told to go. And it creates this kind of

impact of difference. So I will defer to the abuser I'll go where I'm allowed to.

Or liberty deprivation. So liberty deprivation, most most common example of that is sleep deprivation.

So an abusive person, I'll get into I'll shift topic in a second, but

my I didn't have a bed to sleep in. But many years I used to have to sleep in the camp

and should do this thing where she would come smashing in at like two o'clock in the morning

and just start screaming at you. And it would create this environment where you would never get

a proper night's sleep because even when she didn't do that, you were still hyper vigilant while

asleep. It was still hyper aware. Like it, it had the ears up, you'd be half kind of looking out

to living room because that's where it's to sleep. Just keep your eye out on, oh, can I hear the

footsteps coming? You know, can I see, you know, can I see her coming? Do I need to get myself

super awake at that particular point? And you'd do the thing where if you, I'm going to shift

out of tactics for a second, just talk about this, where if you weren't instantaneously awake and

responding as calm and accurate as possible, when you got woken up really at two o'clock in the

morning, then all hell would break loose. Yeah, so you'd create this hyper vigilant,

sort of form of hyper vigilant, where you would always be aware of what was happening around you

and always be performing at, you know, 110%, even when you were trying to sleep, you'd always

have to be ready to perform, otherwise all hell would break loose. And those times, by the way,

this sounds very familiar. I'm very sorry for that. That's what it is.

It is what it is. Hey, you know, there's this thing, I'm going to shift topic because of that,

it's okay. When I started speaking up about what was happening to me, I had a couple of things

that happened, I don't know if this happened with you as well. I would talk to some guys and

they would struggle to have the conversation and then they'd vanish from my life. So, you know,

I'd open up and they go, oh, that's rough, mate, and that would be the last time I've ever spoken.

Then I'd have these other guys, that's P2, who almost always said, you're describing my life right now.

And I had that conversation more often than I ever expected the hat once I started opening up.

And I'll be talking to these people, going, oh, this is what's happening, you know,

I'm in a really rough place at the moment. You'll have to bear with me and they'll go,

I hate them. That's where I'm at right now. I don't know how to make my way out. I have a

stupid figure out. Did you have the same? I didn't speak to that many people at all. I didn't

speak to anybody until I decided I've had enough. And the first person I spoke to was my dad.

How did he respond? He was very supportive. I don't want to go into it too much.

But anyway, yeah, he talked about him and his relationship with my mom.

And he was like, you need to get out. So anyway, I've got so many questions now.

That was a really good rundown of some examples, by the way. I might come back to you some

first and more, but it's just they're fascinating. That's good. And I think they're really insightful,

but do you think men tend to be when men are abusive, they tend to be more physically abusive

and women more psychological or are they all the same and they come in different shapes and forms?

Yeah, sure answer to that is I don't know. The longer answer is

men tend to express more physically than women.

And I know when they do get even if they're a victim, so victim and or perpetrator,

they tend to express their emotions in a much more physical way than women do.

So when a man is a victim and he's been through hell, he'll tend to express that in a very angry way.

Same with a perpetrator as well. But I don't know the answer to that.

Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, I'll look, my I was a victim of physical abuse as well.

My ex could get my ex could get very angry.

We're angry that I've seen any guy get angry. Anyway, but I know equally

someone whose husband was very manipulative and using the exact same tactics you're describing.

And you know, deprived her of money and never did any work around the house.

Like dastard her all the time, said he would do things, but then didn't and denied that he ever said he would.

You know, all these psychological tools that you're just describing like very similar,

you know, someone confided in me that like, yeah, that's where ex was like, and I'm like,

and it's like, I don't know, like, I think, yes, society just expects men to be the bad guys in

every relationship and abusers. And you know, there's a lot of talk about supporting women.

And I think it's right because I think for a long time, women were treated very badly in society.

That's that's a fact. But you can't argue that's the case in the last few decades. I mean,

I think women, women have got plenty of rights and men have been on the receiving end. There's a war

on men. There's a war on strong men. And Jason Christoff, who's just been on my podcast at a

documentary called Planet Mind Control. And he talked about three major agendas that are pushed

in by Hollywood and TV. And the third one he talked about is emasculating men and, you know,

making them weak, cathetic, helpless, hopeless. And I think that is a case. There is an agenda.

There's an attack on men today. They do not want strong male figures. And strong male figures

doesn't equal toxic men. I actually think strong men are are really good for society because

they're good. They have integrity. They have morals. They're protective. They're caring.

It's actually weak men who are cruel and abusive. Anyway, so going back to to the women thing and

men, you know, I just feel like right now, a lot of people who might get upset hearing this,

but there is a subgroup of women who are very sympathetic and they are mothers.

Yep. So I had I've had several mothers talk to me about how their baby boys, you know,

who are in the thirties, are being abused by these very attractive, beautiful women. And,

and you know, and they open up their hearts to me and they're and I want to cry because I've

got a baby boy. And and if I and if my baby boy went for the abuse that I did or any of the

abuse that, you know, I hear these mothers tell me about, man, my heart would weep. I'd be like,

I just wanted to be happy little boy. I mean, my baby boy is such a love, such a good boy.

And and these little good boys turn out to be good men. I was one of them. I am one of them.

I'm sure you're one of them. But these mothers have confided in me and tell me like, you know,

I said, oh, for these women, because they're bitches. She goes, I'm not allowed to see my son.

I'm not allowed to see my grandchildren. So they get they get caught off. They can't see their

children. They can't see their son. And when they do get to see them, they're not allowed to show

affection. One person was saying, I'm not allowed to say I love you to my son in front of her because

she gets upset. And you're just really bizarre controlling manipulative kind of thing. But yeah,

I think when you're a mother and you see your little baby boy getting abused, you go,

you get it. You see it. Do you know what I mean? You feel helpless as well as a mother because

you're desperately, you tend to desperately want to try to help. And when you do, especially when

they're really lost in coercive control, the son will tend to actually reject you because that's

the narrative and strip that they've been preconditioned with by their abusive partner. When I

I'll tell you about this because when I first launched, Stan again, I had three types of people

who reached out to me. The first was women who were pissed off that I was doing this. And to be

honest, I would respond to them and say, hey, look, you know, this isn't a gender issue. I'm just

hit a support man. And they would go, yeah, okay, fair enough. But they'd actually go, yeah,

okay, that's fair enough. The second group was mums. And I had so many mums reached out going,

how do I reach my son? I know he's lost an abusive relationship. He's been isolated from us.

I'm trying to reach out to him and he keeps rejecting us. I can see what's happening. Like he's

being financially controlled. He's being streamed and yelled at. He's being told that he is actually

the useless and pathetic. But he's not. He's good boy. I love him very much. And every time I try to help,

I keep hitting either row blocks. She keeps either blocking or twisting it or

and he actually pushes back and goes, no, no, no, I'm, you know, you're not good for me. And

she'd be like, I don't even know where that came from. Like, where did that even come from?

So I ended up writing a book just on that topic as well. So I got another book out which is

called Reaching Him, which is specifically for mothers as well to help them figure out what

they need to do to kind of get into that right because I know from myself and I don't know about

you. But there were points when I was in that relationship with my own wife where if anybody had

actually told me, hey, this isn't good for you, I would have actively rejected it. I would have

gone, no, no, no, no, you're wrong. And I would have actually shorted up with my wife and gone

back to her and gone, oh, you wouldn't believe what so-and-so said. They said, this is this is

this because I would have been at that point kind of born and kind of made it all that, you know,

she was fully on board and she would have been right there beside me making sure I was

excluding my family, which I already had, you know, isolated myself from my family.

So I think there's this odd little belief, I think, where people think women don't care about men

as well and about the suffering from our victims. And I actually don't think that's true

because almost all of the women I've spoken to as a throughstand again have all been extremely

supported of helping men. And they themselves can see the disparity going, why isn't that so

in Australia there's no funding for male victims of family violence, I'm fully self-funded,

whereas female victims is lots of funding out there, you know, they're throwing granks at it

all over the place. But again, it's not all women who go, they don't exist, it's no such thing as

male victims, we're not going to support them, there's a hell of a lot of who doing.

Do you know what percentage of, by the way, I want to talk at some point as well about

solutions like when you're the sky? And actually, I think so much of this talk applies to women

as well, women might resonate, oh, my ex, my, my, my male partner was a, husband was abusive like

this, my boyfriend was abusive. So I actually think a lot, there's so much crossover. But, you know,

you know, we'll talk about the solutions in a second, but looking at the percentage of people

abused in a domestic relationship, do you know how many are women and how many are men?

Um, is it 50, 50? I'm going to give a personal opinion here.

Yeah, whatever stat is out there, I don't believe it.

So in Australia, it's one in three. So as in one in three, I don't believe it because,

and this is, this is a personal opinion, you have to test it with research. Men don't talk about

it. Very rarely do they talk about it. Men tend to not want to show that they are weak. So,

again, they, they, you know, hide their shame by not, not raising. Hey, I'm an abusive relationship.

They'll tend to just go, I've solved the problem by moving on. I'm not raising, yeah.

The second thing is, which I think it's really critical, is the way victims tend to be identified

is all done through a female end. So the tells that the, um, the presentations are all written from

the way that you would expect a female victim to respond. It's different to the way men tend to

present when they're victims. Men tend to present completely differently. They might present with

anger. They might present with, um, complete shutdown. They might present with, I'm in problem solving

mode now, yeah. I'm, I'm now in problem solving mode. That's not the way female victims tend to

present. Men don't present with huge amount of fear either, which is really, really interesting.

They'll tend to go, I was, went through this situation and now I'm trying to figure out my way out,

but they don't show fear because from very, very young age, men are told not to show fear.

So they don't show the fear. Whereas fear is a key indicator of being a victim. So, um,

personally, I don't believe the stats. I suspect that if we actually, um, revisited the way that we

assess who's, who's a victim and who's a perpetrator and assessed and made sure that we were

actually crystal clear about what a male presentation looks like as a victim. I think that's

tends to be completely, I think it's something that got a holy shit by my language. There's actually

hell a lot more about male victims than we realized. Folks, if you've enjoyed this conversation,

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