507 – Law and Order: Normandy

0:00Welcome to the British History Podcast. My name is Jamie and this is Episode 507 Law and Order, Normandy. This show is ad-free due to member support and it's a way of thanking members for keeping the show independent, I offer members only content, including extra episodes and rough transcripts and you can get instant access to all the members' extras by signing up for membership at the British History Podcast.com for about the price of the law tape or month and thank you very much to Ian, Bernadette and Michelle for signing up already. Henry had defeated his brother, but he hadn't defeated Normandy. At least, not yet. Duke Roberts still had supporters out there and Flaze was still very loyal to the Duke. In fact, Duke Roberts' son, William Clito, was sheltering in Flaze. Now, Clito was only about four years old at this point, so he wouldn't be very helpful in a siege,

1:03but his presence no doubt fueled the Duke of Fervor within the stronghold. Flaze was ride or die for Robert. But for Robert, this war was done. He wanted it over and he probably also didn't want his son needlessly put in danger, so he made an offer to Henry. I'll go to Flaze and tell them to stand down, but the order does need to come from me because they're so loyal. But I promise, I'll do it. And Henry was all, look Rob, I know I'm the youngest, but I wasn't bored in yesterday. So I'm not just going to let you go and hope that you tell them to stand down. You are staying here. Now, take a look around at your fellow prisoners and tell me who else I can send to do this. And Robert, probably rather reluctantly, said that they'd probably listen to William of Ferrors instead, because Ferrors was his longtime ally and friend. So

2:06Henry was like, great, and sent Ferrors ahead to gain the surrender while he, Robert and the Royal Army followed close behind. Flaze surrendered shortly thereafter. But even then, it still wasn't done. A couple of Henry's charters from this period referred to unnamed military engagements in Normandy. So while we don't know where the fighting was taking place, it was still going on, and Kurt Hose still had supporters out there. And according to Orderic, one man in particular was still very loyal and looking to rumble. Robert of Blem. Yeah, Orderic tells us that Blem wanted to keep the fight up so hard that he actually reached out to Count Helius of Maine and asked him to join the resistance against Henry. And in response, Helius met with Blem and delivered a long speech about how much Robert sucked and how he was a weak Duke and how churches had been burned to the ground because of him. So instead of me joining Robert, why don't you and your boys come and join

3:13Henry? And Blem was all cool. Yeah, I'll do that then. So Helius wrote off and met with Henry, and he brokered a piece with a king on behalf of Blem and the two were reconciled. And Henry loved Helius so much that he actually decided to give Blem some extra gifts, and he restored Blem to his Norman inheritance, which included the Vicon of Phalais. At least that's the story according to Orderic. And to be fair here, we do know that these two men were reconciled, and we know that Blem got his ancestral properties back with the exception of Arsiantan because Arsiantan was just too strategically powerful. But I'm not buying Orderic's tale about how this deal actually went down. Because first of all, there were two men who were responsible for Robert's fall at Tintrabray, and their names were Blem and Helius. If you recall, Helius's charge on the Duke of Flank was decisive,

4:20but it had also been very risky because Blem was right there ready to launch an attack on Helius' flank if he attacked, and then go in and reinforce the Duke of Lines. But for some reason, at the battle, Helius must have been very confident that wasn't going to happen, because despite that huge danger, he launched the attack anyway, and that was the moment when Blem was supposed to kick into gear and crush Helius. But instead, he turned his forces and just marched away, leaving Robert and the Duke of Larmie to their fate. And that's how we ended up here, with Robert cooling his heels in Henry's prison. But somehow, we're supposed to believe that Blem was now having second thoughts, and he wanted to continue the fight on behalf of Robert. And in service of that, he was trying to recruit the commander of the attack that had devastated Robert's army. But upon hearing the speech that sounded suspiciously like the Crown's complaints

5:23about Robert, suddenly Blem decided to switch sides and join Henry, and Helius was all, oh sweet, I can totally make that happen. And then Henry was so excited about this that he just lavished presence upon Blem. And look, I wasn't there, so I can't say how it really went down, but that is fishy as hell. And I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Uno reverse card conversation happened before Tintra Bray. And that's how Helius knew that his cavalry charge was safe. It would also be a far better explanation for why Blem got his properties back. I mean, asking us to believe that Henry just loved Helius so much that he gave gifts to Blem really just doesn't make any sense. It could also explain why Henry hedged his bet, and basically said, you know, you can have everything back except Arjun Tan because you're like the diceous guy I know, and I don't want you to stab me in the back like you've stabbed so many others.

6:26So yeah, I think Orderic was fudging the timeline a bit and moved the conversation to after the battle because Helius conspiring with Blem to betray his lead before the battle really wasn't a good look. But however it came about, Blem was now supporting Henry, and he was also restored to power. So that's great. Meanwhile, the Royal Army continued its march, and eventually they reached Ruan, where Robert commanded his vassal, I guess, former vassal, Hugh of Nanant to surrender the city. After taking possession of the city, Henry then confirmed the laws, restored the privileges, and pretty soon thereafter, again on Robert's orders, the other castellans of Normandy surrendered their castles to Henry as well. Next, Henry summoned the Norman magnates to Lazio, and he held a council where he ordered the restoration of Duke Order and demanded that the laws be strictly

7:27enforced. No more robbing, no more plundering, no more burning, and I'm looking at you, sir, Stephen. You've had your fun, but now it's time to put the matches away. And as for the church properties, look, I know everyone had a great time seizing lands during the reign of Robert, and it's way easier to steal lands from a bunch of mugs than from a lord with a retinue of nights, so I get it, but you gotta give it back. If you've got something that the church owned when my dad died, you're gonna have to return it. Actually, you know what, let's just do a full reset. If you have lands that were owned by anyone else, when my dad died, you know, William the Conqueror, you gotta give him back. And that includes my brother's grants. Let's face it, Robert was an idiot, so I am nullifying everything. And I know they say no take backsees, but I'm the king here, and we're doing take backsees. Welcome to Law and Order, Normandy style.

8:32Next, Henry went back to Ruan and began handling administrative tasks. And he started tackling various disputes, questions over land rights, and legal issues. And we've got numerous charters coming out of Ruan rapidly during this period. And it's very clear that Henry really got right to work. He had come into power promising reform, and he was moving quickly to deliver on that promise. In fact, Shugair, who was one of our contemporary sources, and who would have been in his twenties during this period, writes about how in the two years following Henry's seizure of Normandy, his priory went from being absolutely wrecked and destitute due to all of its lands and rights being seized during the reign of Robert, to being fully restored to its full status. Now, Shugair and his priory sought this restoration in the courts aggressively, so it didn't just happen on its own. But as he notes, they would not have been able to find any success in the courts on

9:34this matter were it not for the judicial reforms that Henry had applied to the dukele courts. And as a result, Shugair became one of Henry's biggest fans. Sometimes, the best way to gain allies is just to make sure that the basic government can function. A short while later, in Canterbury, a letter arrived carrying the king's seal. And the letter basically said, Dear Anselm, guess who's sitting in my dungeon right now? Short pants! Well, not just him, also a bunch of those deceitful barons who just couldn't read the room. So I guess at least my garbage brother has some people to keep him company, while I am busy governing Normandy, because that's right, I did it. Who's the duke? I'm the duke. And I am awesome at it. And then Henry went on to brag about how thoroughly he wanted Tentra Bray. And either he was terrible at math, which given his attention to detail and obsession with taxes, I doubt he was,

10:38or he was exaggerating wildly, because he said he captured 10,000 soldiers and 400 nights. And as far as how many people they killed in the battle, well, he said that number can't even be calculated. So, magnitude's more than 10,000. And, um, short Jan. I mean, Henry clearly won the battle, but this accounting is an obvious exaggeration. And he might as well have concluded his letter with, and everybody clapped. But, cooked books are not, and some did have to respond. And historian Hollister describes his response as rejoicing in Henry's victory. And, I mean, I don't know, maybe I've spent too long reading these two guys fighting with each other, often in subtle ways. But, at least to me, it seems like Anselm's rejoicing still carried a few barbs.

11:41He begins his response by giving Henry his due. Anselm addresses him as king and duke, and he offers his service and prayers, and says he hopes that Henry will continue to improve and do better. And never, you know, go the other way. Then Anselm says this, quote, I rejoice and give thanks with as much affection as I can to God, from whom all things come, for your prosperity and your successes. I therefore pray to Almighty God with hearts and lips as much as my spirit is capable of, both myself and through others, that in the mercy of his grace, which he has begun to expend upon you, he may unceasingly continue to lead you from earthly exaltation after this life to the heavenly kingdom and eternal glory. Amen. End quote. Now, could this be just a normal prayer for someone to continue on a righteous path? Sure.

12:42But considering the amount of conflict that Anselm had with Henry over his unrighteous behavior, this seems a lot less to me that it's keep on keeping on cool guy and I'll see you in heaven. And more, hey, Hank, you got lucky here, but don't test God's patience. And I'm going to pray that whatever magic he's working on you, it's going to keep working and you're not going to slip back into your old ways. Meanwhile, Edmur, probably sitting somewhere nearby while this letter was read, was making a mental note. And it's one that would eventually make it into his Vida. And here's how he characterized Henry's victory over Robert. Quote. Indeed, everyone who heard of these events at that time ascribed them to the merits of the understanding which the king had come to with Anselm. End quote. Yeah. Edmur's take here is that this is proof that at the end of the day, Anselm was the main

13:45character and the reason why Henry had succeeded was because he learned his place, that place being beneath Anselm. But whether that simmering feud was still ongoing was an issue for future Henry because current Henry still had to deal with all of those prisoners. Now, obviously, I don't think he really had over 10,000 prisoners, but he did probably have quite a few nights locked up, along with a sizable number of common folk who had just been conscripted into the Duke's army. But, you know, our records being what they are, the scribes were only focused on the high-rank nobles that were in the king's custody. So we don't have a super clear view of what was going on here, but among the captured nobility were the Duke's son, William Clito, and also Edgurthy Atheling. Yeah, I bet you didn't expect to hear from that guy again, did you? But apparently, Edgurthy Atheling had come out of retirement and joined Duke Robert's cause, and he was even

14:51present at the Battle of Tintubery. And the reason why I didn't mention it during that episode was because in classic Edgurthy Atheling fashion, he didn't do anything worth noting in that battle, other than, you know, apparently jinxing the whole thing. But the point here is that Henry really did have a lot of prisoners, including powerful nobles and his own in-laws, so he needed to figure out what he was going to do with them. And normally, the first step here would be to send out ransom demands, because Shiloric Warfare was sort of like a more violent version of capture the flag, you know, if it was run by private equity bros. Capturing people in ransoming them was the goal here. In fact, Roger of Torony claims that the total fatalities at Tintubery were no more than 60 people. And if he's telling the truth here, that suggests that they were deliberately avoiding killing each other, and were instead focusing on kidnapping. Which very well might be the

15:53case, because that really is the best way for knights and other commanders to come out of these battles with some sick loot. The problem here though, was that they might have done too good of a job at it. Because now they did have a lot of prisoners, and that was actually making life difficult for King Henry. Because Henry's goal here was peace. And I'm guessing that was a surprising revelation, considering that he had just violently conquered Normandy. It's also a significant break from how Norman Lords were expected to behave. I mean generally, it's a safe bet that if someone was named William, or was related to someone named William, their perfect Sunday afternoon would involve stabbing someone with a sword. But Henry was different in this regard. In fact, Henry's war for Normandy seems to have been quite the exception. And once he had united his father's cross-channel empire, Henry's reign was far more focused on diplomacy and governance,

16:55rather than military adventures. Or as mom's reign put it, quote, he preferred to contend by council rather than by the sword. And that sounds soothing. Never thought I'd be jealous of 12th century Englishmen, but here we are. But the point of all of this is that peacefully ruling through his council was going to be really hard to do if that council was full of people who were holding a grudge against Henry due to how he handled their family members after Tinshapray. But it would be equally hard to do if it was full of people who thought that he was weak because he didn't go hard enough after Tinshapray. One misstep here, and Henry could find himself be set by internal wars just like his brother had been. Now, as I said earlier, we unfortunately don't have a detailed account of all the prisoners who were seized during this conquest, which is why I said I doubt Henry's

17:56claim of having more than 10,000 prisoners, but I can't call him definitely a liar because we lack the records to prove it. But we are told that Henry released most of the prisoners. And for the common soldiers, I'm guessing that most of them were released pretty quickly after Tinshapray, especially if he had thousands upon thousands of them. A force of that size can't be effectively imprisoned for long, and while it's very likely that there were far less than 10,000 prisoners, keeping the commoners imprisoned was still counterproductive for Henry. These people were only at the battle because they were told to be there, and the truth is they'd be far more useful to Henry if they were back in the field, producing wealth for him to enjoy. So my guess is that they were asked to take Odes a piece, and then were sent on their way in a matter of days. The nobles and knights, however, were another matter entirely, because different rules and expectations get triggered

18:58when you're dealing with higher ranked prisoners of war. Now, unfortunately, most of these men also go unnamed, so we can't be exactly sure what happened to all of them, but we do know that William Ferrer's who had been captured at Tinshapray and then helped Henry acquire fillets at Robert's request was released. We also know that Edgar the Athling was released without any punishment whatsoever, which was probably the right call to make here, because it would probably make Queen Matilda happy, as she was his niece. Also, do you really want him to stick around? The guy was a jinx. If I was Henry, I could go the extra mile and send him to the court of France and just let the guy work his magic. Our records also tell us that William Crispin and Robert the second of Stuttvill were released. Now, in the case of Robert the second of Stuttvill, here is where we begin to see Henry's ruthless instincts return, because we're told that he wasn't released just on his own here

20:00with an oath or something. To get his release, he had to give up the Stuttvill lands in England, which the king then gave to his pal, Nigel, which was also part of Henry's ruthless plan here, installing as many of his own allies into the power structure of England. But Nicking lands wasn't the end of it for Stuttvill, because he wasn't the only Robert of Stuttvill who had been captured at Tinshapray. His dad, Robert the Elder, had also been captured, and while Shivalry and 12th century Norman culture demanded that terms for release be provided, you know, ransom, surrendering property, oaths, whatever. Henry just decided to keep the Elder Stuttvill imprisoned. Presumably, because the younger Stuttvill wouldn't be so eager to rebel again if you knew that the king's agents could easily reach his father. And this might seem like the natural choice to you, right? The sort of thing that you'd see in a medieval-themed fantasy novel, like Game of Thrones.

21:05But in the 12th century, Henry was openly flouting the social norms of Shivalry. Remember, Stuttvill hadn't actually committed a crime. In fact, none of the men who were seized at Tinshapray were accused of any crime. They were enemy combatants, and so there were rules for how they were to be treated as prisoners of war. On top of that, Stuttvill wasn't just some commoner. I mean, if he was just a plowman, no one would care if he was rotting away for the rest of his life. I mean, his family and neighbors might care, but not anybody with enough power to do something about it. Those with actual power would probably only care in theory, you know, as a general principle. But Stuttvill wasn't like un-ferth. He was a Christian noble. And as such, Henry was supposed to treat him with honor and either allow him to ransom his freedom, like Stuttvill's son had done, or just let him go after he takes an oath, promising to stop being such a naughty boy.

22:08What you aren't supposed to do is indefinitely imprison someone important just on a whim without a trial or even an accusation of a crime. And right about now, some of you might be saying, well, come on, the conqueror held Wolfnoth a more car indefinitely, so it's not like this is a new thing. And yeah, the conqueror did do that. However, more car was a rebel. And when Wolfnoth was seized, the godwinsons were also in open rebellion. So it's different. Again, the imprisonment of nobles did happen, but it happened when they committed serious crimes, not just because the regime found them politically inconvenient. So this was against the rules, but Henry didn't care. He wanted to secure his grip on power, and this was an expedient way to do it, regardless of how much of a breach of culture it was. So he just treated Stuttvill as if he had committed

23:08treason, even though clearly he hadn't. And Henry didn't stop there. He did the same thing to do Robert Kurthoes and Count William of Mortaine as well. And this was even more shocking than the Stuttvill situation, because it meant that Henry wasn't just violating cultural norms against random magnates. Now he was doing it to his own brother and his own cousin openly in front of everyone, practically daring someone to try and stop him. And it gets worse when you remember that a massive part of his bargain with a ruling class of England was, let me violate succession norms in Seas England, and I will restore law and order and improve your lives. And then when the taxes went up and things didn't actually improve, he pivoted to, let me violate succession norms and seize Normandy. And once I do that, I'll restore law and order and improve your lives.

24:11And now that he's done it, the bargain was shifting again. I'll restore law and order. But on occasion, I also get a break the law and treat political enemies as common criminals. That is not good. It did Henry know that his decision was laying down the groundwork that would be used by tyrants to disappear their political enemies? Did he know that it would only take about 100 years until this would get so out of control that two clauses in Magna Carta would be specifically about how the king is not allowed to seize people and hold them at the royal pleasure? No, of course not. He didn't have a time machine, but that is what will happen. And some of the worst parts of King John are getting their start right here. Because like with much of the reign of Henry, the choices that he was making in the early 12th century was laying down the foundation for things that the plantagenets would later get credit for.

25:17Though to be fair to Henry, he really didn't have many options for what to do about Kurt Hoes and Mortain. I mean, you couldn't just kill them. You're not supposed to murder your own family, not even if they're annoying. And the fact that Kurt Hoes was a crusader added an extra layer of no. No, you really can't murder this guy. And for as tyrannical as Henry's contemporaries thought he was, that would be nothing compared to how they'd talk about him if it was known that he just up and killed his brother in cold blood. I mean, there's already that suspicion going around due to what happened in the new forest. But if it happened again, I think everybody would be pretty sure as to what was going on here. So at the end of the day, Henry was stuck with his garbage brother and his stupid, magging cousin. But at the same time, if he let them go, he would never be secure. They would be lightning rods for any future rebellion.

26:17And if any of his vassals got grumpy, and vassals always get grumpy, well, they'd be conspiring with Kurt Hoes and Mortain faster than you could say, this whole family belongs in the new forest. So really, Henry's safest bet here was to just take the social hit and keep them imprisoned. And so arrangements were made for Robert to be taken to Dorset, where he could take up residence in a building that was actually constructed by his father, Corp Castle. And as for Mortain, well Henry had just the spot picked out for him. You see, Mortain clearly enjoyed the finer things in life, and he obviously wanted to improve his station. And Henry had a fortress that had already housed one distinguished guest. And like Robert's residence, you really couldn't even call that a prison, because it wasn't a prison. It was a palace, and it was constructed by the conqueror himself,

27:18the Tower of London. Yeah, William, you're headed to the Tower of London. Though I hope you understand that the drunken parties hosted by Bishop Flambard will not be returning to the menu. Things will be much more sober and secure this time around. Please enjoy your stay. And so two of Henry's biggest threats were dealt with. But as any parent can tell you, arranging accommodations for adults is wildly different from arranging them when you've got a kid involved, especially a toddler. And that brings us to the last of Henry's named prisoners. William Clito, Kurt Hose's four-year-old son, and Henry's nephew. What the hell was he gonna do with little Clito? I mean, his very existence was extraordinarily dangerous for Henry. Because at the end of the day,

28:18Henry's entire argument for Normandy was that Robert was a terrible duke and he needed to be replaced. And even if that's true, the next in line was not Henry. It was Robert's eldest legitimate son. Clito. Which means it was highly likely that Henry's enemies would use Clito as a rallying point for any future wars that they might want to launch. Not to mention, he'd be a wedge issue to drive discontent. Any of Henry's enemies could just say, yeah, things are bad right now because you've got the wrong guy in power and God is mad. So let's install Clito and end God's wrath. Even worse, while people knew Mortein and Kurt Hose, and thus they had their complaints about them, Clito was only four, and he would be able to be controlled and molded by whoever got custody of him, which would make him rather attractive to any discontent nobles looking to overthrow Henry.

29:21So this toddler represented a stunning degree of danger for Henry's regime. But at the same time, locking up a four-year-old doesn't exactly project restoration of law in order. And while Henry was ruthless and was willing to press his luck by keeping noble prisoners without an opportunity for parole, there were some lines you simply could not cross in the 12th century. And one of them was imprisoning small children. So this put Henry in a very tight spot, and his solution was to release Clito and place the boy under the care of one of his newly acquired Norman magnates, Helius of Sansen, who by the way was a completely different Helius from Helius of Maine. Now this Helius was actually Clito's brother-in-law, as Helius had married one of Kurt Hose's illegitimate daughters. He was also a close ally of Kurt Hose, so close in fact that Robert had

30:26made the guy the Count of Arc. And I've read historians describe this as Henry's showing his compassionate side. And maybe? But I think the more likely reality here is that he didn't have any other choice. I mean, he was already pushing the boundaries of what his vassals would accept. If he went any harder, things could get ugly really fast. Helius, if he released Clito into the hands of one of his own allies, that might be enough to kick up a rebellion. He'd really press things pretty far here, and I'm guessing he didn't dare go any further. And so the kiddo was released. And Henry went back to trying to convince everyone that actually, Robert and his pals weren't in prison. Don't believe the fake news here. They're not in prison. They're actually at very fancy resorts that they can't leave. But let's be serious here. It's really dangerous out there for men like Kurt Hose and Mortain. So I'm keeping them safe. This is protective custody.

31:30And besides, they're also being kept in the lap of luxury. I mean, can you even call this imprisonment when they're living better than even most nobles? And besides, they didn't even want to rule. These guys are lazy and really like hanging out in the rooms. Everybody says that. Tell him, Mortaric. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, you can reach me at the British History Podcasts at gmail.com. And if you'd like to help us keep the project going, please consider signing up for membership at thebritishhistorypodcast.com. Thanks for listening.