525 - Snap It Out

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Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

That's Georgia Heart Start.

That's Karen Kilagera.

And we're here podcasting for you with full hearts and can't lose and golden and living

our lives like it's golden and we are doing it.

Okay.

We have to talk about are you sick because we have to talk about we want to Austin over

the weekend for South by Southwest for the I heart podcast awards so much fun every year.

I get on the plane.

I'm sitting right behind directly behind Karen and directly next to Karen so I can see

this person through the arm chair rest thing.

This fucking dude tell them about him.

Well this dude was very proud because he had a Kirchiff that he liked to blow his nose

in and he started about three minutes before the plane took off.

I felt like I was interpreting maybe some nervousness about the flight.

Maybe some tension.

Maybe some fucking like bubonic plague.

Well so he pulls this Kirchiff out of his pocket and he and Kirchiff I'll never forget

it.

Gigantic and he blows his nose like he's doing a bit like it's like a I'm an elephant

kind of trumpeting thing which you know like I blow my nose constantly so I'm not going

to be like a shamey person.

I don't I try not to do that in public public.

No and especially like this idea of like well someone has their own I keep saying Kirchiff

what's the right.

Kirchiff.

Anchor Chiff.

Yeah.

Except for that this man then after he blew it into this already wet Gigantic damp Gigantic

screen.

Anchor Chiff.

But then he snaps it out like a goddamn picnic blanket.

I am not exaggerating when I tell you he blows his nose in it and then snaps it out like

three times.

Every 60 seconds.

It started weird.

I almost said something like on the fourth time by the 15th time I was literally like screaming

and putting my sweater over my mouth every time he did it.

Here's the biggest problem don't be sick on a plane and if you're if you are at least

try to pretend you're not like don't get on a plane if you have to blow your nose

because you're so sick every minute.

If I may.

I'm going to argue with that.

Okay.

I don't think that's what it was.

I think he had a truly sick perversion to like getting snot on people or something because

it was so nonsensically when have you ever seen someone blow their nose and then snap

out the Anchor Chiff.

Snap it out.

It reminds me of like there was a time where I kept walking at nice restaurants kept

walking into a man who forgot to lock the door standing at the urinal and I was like

why do they keep happening to me and someone was like that's a fetish is having someone

walking on your peeing and I was like okay it's not just a weird you know and it was

always like not that nice restaurants matter but it was a place where like it was a gas station

where you're like you've been driving for six hours.

The law should have per gone.

Yeah exactly.

Well and also in this situation it's very easy and joky to be like it's a fetish but

nothing else explains the amount of times he did it the the drama with which he snapped

it out where it was just like I can't believe the people across the aisle are pissed.

It was so bad that I made I did something I've never do on flights.

I made friends with a person sitting next to me.

I had to turn and start talking to her or I was going to fucking scream yeah and she ended

up in this lovely woman with sapeja who lives in my fucking neighborhood so funny and we

chatted the whole time.

I'm sure that was super annoying too because I didn't hear you I didn't hear you making

a friend I was up in the front getting stuff on my shoulder from this man I can't believe

you're not sick and I don't think I am although I'm today in Los Angeles fun weather talk

it's so hot it's hot that I kind of feel sick from how is it this hot yeah and I were

really kind of I didn't think it through summer shirt on and then when I got to work

I was like I don't know where this on camera on camera on video video on Netflix big concern

these days listeners with a whole other thing that's happening while you listen we've got

all these other things to worry about it's just like life keeps happening even though

it's happening even though me and my 55 year old face aren't that into it also what is

wrong with my hair it's always a weird triangle well anyway thanks for I to I heart

we really love being partners with I heart as a company the people that work there are

so cool we were so excited to be at that award show I texted nor I was like hey your favorite

podcast one podcast of the year because she loves giggly squad yeah my god they were

the fucking most hilarious women I've ever so good so charming and lovely we don't have

to worry about the future they're going to kill it in every direction they were so hilarious

we can retire but yeah we got to see lots of people that we like there and hang out watch

what crap ends always a pleasure so it was super fun fun all around we lost but we're

really we were just happy to be there we're used to losing that's where that's where that's

our comfort zone I think I really get uncomfortable when the winning starts yeah I mean we already

want at life so we won like posted up on a couch in that these awards hanging out having

saying hi like Jake from disgrace land on one side Craig Pearlt on the other Pearlt on the

other what do you what more does anyone want what more in this life oh we got to see the

head in the heart play lies like with in front of 50 people or something is great thank you thank

you all no chicken should think of this year but now you can't win at all but a lot because again

to talk about the weather the weather was so wildly up and down there that I did a lot of shopping

and I just want to shout out feathers the vintage store in Austin because I bought jewelry there

I bought a coat there I bought a short sleeve shirt there I did it every season I haven't unpacked

yet so I forgot that I bought a shirt at an vintage store yes I gross that I have an unpacked

well no it's such a pain it's like you just come back and get right back into everything yeah

I think the woman at feathers actually because she gave me two like tote bags with their logo on

I think once for you love a tote bag yeah we should account tote bags one day as like a

fan cult video I've got them to count for sure yeah I've got a whole drawer full of funny ironic

sayings on them cities we visited our own merch I just got a gelsons tote oh because you know

how everybody's into those trader joe's totes all right around the world yeah well gelsons in the game

now get in there gelsons gelsons our local rich people's grocery store they're like we can do this

speaking of we can do this we have a podcast network that's right it's called exactly right media

here some quick highlights okay this is very exciting our newest limited series two-faced John of

God is currently featured on Apple podcasts right this second the full series is available to binge

in both English and Spanish so if you haven't listened to this podcast yet now's the time it's

so good speaking of incredibly exciting over on that's messed up Kara and Lisa recap the SVU episode

reasonable doubt about no doubt and they sit down with the no that's not true and they sit down with

get ready for this because my jaw dropped when I heard about this their guess is the great Bradley

Whitford I mean what a booking wow hello how Kara and Lisa killing it so great did you see the death

by lightning the the new Netflix series about the presidential assassination he's in it and he's

so good he's so good and this week on buried bones Kate and Paul head to Boston in 1886 where the

owner of a laundry mat is found murdered in his shop a laundry mat in 1886 I know I was thinking

about that a laundry that as investigators learn more about the victims ambitions a clearer picture

of the case begins to emerge done done that should be at the end of every one of their paragraphs yeah

true and on do you need a ride Kristen Karen welcome Fran Cheska if you aren't teeny and they

talk about Olympic tears serious skincare and more yeah that was the fun episode and by the

over in our merch corner the spring cleaning sale runs from March 26 to March 29 you can get 20

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first purchase goodbye at Britbox character is everything extremely iconic characters

defining British TV on Britbox including Ludwig I think I might just have solved a murder

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stream the best of British TV on Britbox watch with the free trial today at Britbox.com

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all right okay i'm going to kick us off today i'd never heard of this story before it's

it's like kind of crazy and kind of relevant i actually just saw a trailer

zack alifanakis has a new show out have you seen the trailer for it it's him and the whole

things about gardening and growing food and basically how we need to learn how to grow our own food

again can he stop being the greatest hit the world yeah love this man yeah but it's like a truly

something that he's very passionate about and like he's basically teaching people how to do that

so i love that that's kind of a perfect little plug a side plug yeah zack is my friend and i

adore him and his work but something to think about as i tell you this story that begins in 1940s

or again at the Oregon State Hospital in the capital city of Salem this is the state's oldest

running psychiatric institution it was first opened in the 1880s and it's still operating today

the original building has been i've put remodeled but it's like completely redone but the

original campus is where they filmed one floor of the cuckoo's right in the 70 i hear you

so author dianne garis gardener wrote a book about the hospital and she's quoted as saying quote

the history of the Oregon State Hospital is inevitably the history of the mental health system

itself and quote and like psychiatric institutions across america that history includes decades

of harmful practices based on outdated thinking like forced sterilizations and of course

lobotomies horrifying yeah thing that happened and that everyone still has to deal with alongside

the systemic harm caused by chronic underfunding and overcrowding of mental health facilities

so our story begins here on the afternoon of november 18th 1942 it's just after five o'clock

hundreds of patients and staff are eating or have just eaten their hospital issue dinner

when slowly one by one they begin to display classic signs of poisoning some collapse

others vomit many struggle to breathe within hours dozens of people are dead

and officials have no idea who or what is to blame i got this is the story of the 1942

Oregon State Hospital poisoning tragedy oh i've never heard of this right me either

tessa r a p is the one who suggested it yeah so the main sources used today are the book

inside Oregon State Hospital a history of triumphant tragedy by dianne garis gardener

and reporting by capi lin for the statesman journal capi capi's cute that's a great name for the k a p p y

it's actually c a p i oh that's cute but c a p p y it's also capi capi and the rest of the

sources in our show notes so a mass poisoning has been carried out and investigators need to know

why at the time tensions in the united states could not be higher pearl harbor was the year before

december 1941 and that actually ended up pulling us into world war two war time austerity measures

now touch every aspect of american life as the country funnels its resources overseas

and trade routes are disrupted americans are forced to cut back on everything in their lives from

shoes to paper to tires just smiling it's right just everything Hershey bars that's the one that

always gets me in world war two movies when they're like look at Hershey bar yeah chocolate that reminds

me of a tonement and it makes me sad oh i just rewatched that okay but that part where they're on

the beach and just waiting to get rescued and say okay okay so over here while that's going on our

boys are sacrificing their lives at home american's feel all the ser austerity the most at the

grocery store because food rationing means that every household has to be very careful when it

comes to grocery shopping and since bral harbour there's increased anxiety that there will be

further attacks on us soil especially in the coastal states because japanese subs are being seen

in the pacific german u-boats are being seen in the Atlantic i don't have fucking terrifying

i mean it was real real yeah yeah there's even concerned that the already strained us food supply

could be targeted by the enemy the government urges americans to start growing crops in their

backyards and in community gardens calling them quote victory gardens which is very smart and true

to counteract all the fear and scarcity around food so with that in context november 18th

1942 at the organ state hospital is just a regular wednesday aside from all of that about 30 people

work in the kitchen as dinner is prepared for patients and staff and thirty might sound like a lot

until you realize the cooking staff prepares three meals a day for around three thousand people

so it's huge huge numbers but just like every other department at this hospital the kitchens also

going through a staffing crisis because of the war so they are understaffed and overworked as well

and this is how bad it is of the thirty kitchen workers only three of them are actually employed

as cooks we're not sure if there are other staffers in the mix but the vast majority of the

kitchen staff seem to be patients who are called trustees trustees don't actually cook the food

but the hospital relies on them for things like washing the dishes and tidying up and they are not

paid for their labor so they're like patient interns a combination of inadequate state funding

overcrowding and wartime rations dictates the menu every day so at this dinner tonight the main

dish is scrambled eggs which is kind of horrible i'm just going to ask if you thought like the food

still tasted better back then than it does today but i don't want scrambled eggs in any fucking

time period right that's disgusting i hate scrambled eggs not even not even if they're nice and

loose and runny well i can answer because i think this is a thing we don't think about as much

these days except for unless you're on food stamps or you know your family has to rely on powdered

but these eggs are frozen yolks made with powdered milk girls so i'm not thinking it's a delicious

morning you know start to your day you can't imagine is that wait you said for dinner though it's

dinner we had breakfast for dinner a lot as kids because that was just easy and affordable and

i didn't realize i i was so excited that we're getting day is night night is so exciting we're

flipping it all around i know my dad would make us breakfast and dinner pancakes yeah as long as

you put little faces inside we didn't care what was happening okay so scrambled eggs is basically

considered decent sustenance considering that seven cents which is about a dollar 50 in today's

money is all the hospital is able to allocate to feed each patient per day yeah holy shit

organ state hospital is enrolled in the federal program that supplies the kitchen with frozen

egg yolks and according to the book inside organ state hospital quote without the subsidy the

patients would only be given one egg a week and no meat at all and quote wow so the rationing

is very serious the hospital's latest shipment of eggs came a few months back in February

it contained sixty seven hundred pounds of frozen yolks divided into two gallon containers

now you can freeze yolks i don't i don't like it using they look like little ice cubes with yellow

circles that's cute with some orange juice little cocktail nice cocktail the thing is and i did

i'm gonna say this as a person who grew up in the egg basket of the world at one time pedaluma

california we're all about the eggs there yeah i just don't really love interacting with eggs no

in most ways i know what you mean yeah you said it yourself but i'm gonna jump right on that

and pin it back to my hometown okay so these frozen yolks are stored in the basement in storage rooms

with the rest of the hospital's food supply this night dinner served at five o'clock as usual

it's delivered to rooms and in the dining areas across several wards they're far apart from

each other but connected by a tunnel system but as soon as people start eating their dinner

it's clear something is wrong these eggs taste funny and some will describe them as salty

other people will describe them as soapy you know the i think i've had food poisoning twice

the taste that i always tasted was metal really have ever had that no like what kind of food was it

like one one time it was a chinese chicken salad and it was like like a penny yes it was like

there was weird metal in there but it's not like tangy yeah but it was like someone poured a

lacroy across my chinese chicken salad in that way or it's like that doesn't belong yeah that's

not a food taste yeah and then count down count it down so in one section of the hospital a nurse

named alie waselle is so uneasy about the taste she orders all of her patients to stop eating these

eggs everybody in the ward even still many people do eat the eggs even just a bite or two and then

within minutes they begin complaining of leg cramps and nausea that are intensifying as each second

passes leg cramps let's carry i've got egg leg cramps like food poisoning that goes to leg places

that aren't your gut or your system yeah it's like your fucking leg yeah that's like in the blood

yeah okay egg hands i have some pain some start vomiting blood and others stop breathing in their

faces turn blue holy shit within an hour of dinner being served one person is dead when doctors

and nurses show up to help they're immediately overwhelmed by the massive number of people in

that numbers in the hundreds needing immediate treatment so it's just like everybody in the room

this smell this smell scrambled egg vomit this cream sorry everyone i'm trying to make this i'm

trying to really like build a picture yes build a world this is what we do on this show right so

the world build with words powdered scrambled egg vomit sorry we're gonna call this the broad

episode okay go five hours later 10 people are dead Jesus yeah by for the next morning 40 staff

members and or patients have died by Thursday evening the death toll hits 47 nurse alliwa

sells word is the only one with no victims she actually ends up getting sick from the one bite of

egg she took when she then was like works down wow but she does recover the hospital morgue is small

it can only hold a few bodies at a time so victims have to be laid out in hallways and in the

onsite chapel until outside mortuaries from around the entire state come and take the bodies away

so based on the symptoms it's immediately suspected to be a mass poisoning fear washes over an

already anxious public as newspapers begin reporting on the strategy toxicologists test both the

victim's stomach contents and these eggs themselves but the frozen yolks were distributed by the

federal government itself as a part of a wartime food subsidy program and sent to institutions

all throughout Oregon and across the country so the genuine fear that these eggs have been deliberately

poisoned by enemies of the united states to terrorize americans begins to take hold right like

it looks like the either they're trying to make it look like the government's poisoning their own

people or whatever so before more harm can be done Oregon's governor orders all Oregon based

beneficiaries of this federal subsidy program to stop using frozen yolks immediately the federal

people are like I can't please just one bite I love them so much what will I have for dinner what will

I have for my noon time snack the federal government then makes a similar order and starts testing

its surplus eggs for toxins or poison meanwhile scientists from the army the FDA and the American

Medical Association are dispatched to Salem Oregon to assist local pathologists in its investigation

and all of this happens within about a day of the tragedy taking place so immediately people are

a lot of people to die overnight from food poisoning and it is what an opening scene for our movie

because holy shit you're those the doctor in the nurse flirting yeah kind of interesting

each other kind of cute I'm not sure walking talking yeah hey what do you think of the top 20 hits

of the 1940s how about this war come around a corner this is the plot of the movie airplane

that you're talking about and I love that movie unfunny airplane but same amount of eggs

okay the scientists quickly confirm the eggs were laced with a huge amount of sodium fluoride

oh which is lethal to humans even in small doses oh I thought they were just bad they were

fucking lace lace shit and basically sodium fluoride is rat poison and roach poison of course

like a state-run hospital like that has plenty of rat and roach poison on hand so the investigators

also determined the eggs were contaminated during the cooking process meaning any other program using

the same government subsidized egg yolks can rest easy because bears are fine okay drink away defrost

and drink away friends so the mystery is now centered squarely inside the Oregon State Hospital

kitchen and investigate here to want to know how and why this poison got cooked into a scrambled egg

seventies like don't serve people this food every member of the kitchen crew is interviewed but

investigators don't get anywhere none of the kitchen staff admits to knowing anything and investigators

worry that the trustees testimonies are complicated by the fact that they're also psychiatric patients

of course but then five days after the poisoning a 64 year old assistant cook named Abraham

a kill up cracks he reveals that's not a plan on purpose oh oh I didn't think about that wow

that's good I mean cracks bad to me cracks pokes his little beak out of the shells like an egg

he reveals that on the night of the poisoning he was prepping the scrambled eggs and he realized

that he needed powdered milk for the recipe but he was so busy he couldn't step away from the

line and go get it for himself so he asked one of the patient trustees a 27 year old named George

Nozen to go downstairs and grab the powdered milk for him and then Abraham gave the patient his

key to the storage rooms downstairs this was a break in protocol employees are forbidden from giving

patients their hospital keys sure but George Nozen was a very trusted trustee in the kitchen

in Abraham needed a hand so they're understaffed three cooks and also George had been down to

the basement food storage area before so this was something he had done and was used to doing so he

could be trusted to do it but here's the problem what George did not know was that there were two

food storage rooms in the basement both open with the same key one said poison on it and one said

poison food food I mean it's this is this is one of the worst and saddest crazy mix-up stories

he didn't purposely kill them absolutely not absolutely not so when he went down to get the

powdered milk he unknowingly went into the wrong room which is such a mind-fuck like this idea that

without your knowing there's a whole second room that you could have gone into yeah but even then

it's like it should say fucking poison on it fuck it's just say fucking poison right it should say

fucking poison yes you're exactly right and keep that bookmarked that idea for later when George

looked around in that second room that he thought was the first room for the powdered milk

he thought he found it in this big unlabeled that sitting right next to all the other food

it was white it was odorless power he scooped out several pounds of it as requested

said power instead of powder did I really it's it's almost over for me and thank you for everything

it's been it it was white odorless powder sorry no because I don't want to say white power for

fuck say god okay you say it all the time no and don't tell me that it was white odorless powder

and he scooped out several pounds of it as requested and then headed back upstairs handed it over

to Abraham and around six pounds of that poison was mixed into the eggs state police would later say

that just two pounds of this powdered sodium fluoride would be enough to kill two thousand people

and the fact that it was so potent probably saved lives because it caused the people who

ate it to immediately vomit the poison up right and tasted so fucking weird sodium whatever the

fact yes salty or soapy or whatever yeah yes do immediately be like as opposed to my delicious

powdered milk eggs Abraham admits to the investigators that he put two and two together very

quickly once diner started showing symptoms he told the hospitals head chef mario hair

hey mario and they retraced Georgia's steps into the basement and they figured out he must

mistook the white powder that was cockroach poison for powdered milk but they were too afraid

to come forward right away so both Abraham and Mary are arrested so they were right to be afraid

um Georgia's not arrested rumors swirl that they carried out the poisoning intentionally it was a

terrorist plot of some kind but then a grand jury investigation proves that to be a baseless rumor

and that considering how stretched thin all the hospital staff were an accident like this was bound

to happen because of the staffing shortage Oregon State Hospital has been operating without a

staff dietician and that's the person who usually isn't charged of storing and labeling things

in the basement right so you cut costs and you cut corners that's what starts happening so that's

likely how it's possible that a gigantic vat of cockroach poison would wind up sitting unlabeled

next to real food that's also unlabeled so because of these staffing issues it's impossible for

Abraham and his colleagues to do their jobs without relying heavily on the patient trustees

who are not trained as actual staff and were not told the detail about the second food storage room

in the end the grand jury does not bring any criminal charges against assistant cook Abraham

McKillip head chef Mario Hare or George Nozen and it's easy to assume that all three of them were

fully traumatized for life by this entire event for sure in fact the grand jury makes a very practical

recommendation to the state lawmakers about the need for legislation requiring all poisons to be

explicitly labeled so exactly what you're saying and the grand jury takes this opportunity to

issue a damning report about the Oregon State Hospital itself and the impossible responsibilities

of an overwhelmed staff this goes far beyond the kitchen staff and far beyond wartime staffing

it also involves incredible overcrowding and consistent underfunding by lawmakers which then

feeds into the staffing crisis according to the book inside Oregon State Hospital in this era one

daytime staffer cares for 16 patients at a time think of it too many think of that is like two

talks in a restaurant you have eight tables of people who need a lot of help totally but at night

there's only one staffer for every 150 patients that's just general staff there are only eight

doctors for more than 2700 total patients which means inevitably employees are going to rely on

things like restraints and confinement more often than if there were practical patient to caregiver

ratio right so it's basically this situation is worst case expectedly there's also a ton of

employee turnover with one stat showing quote 108.68 percent turnover in staff from 1940 to 1942

alone oh my god everybody's like bye fuck this shit horrible yeah in the wake of this horrific event

national laws are passed requiring that poisons be manufactured with clear warning labels it seems

so obvious there are also noted increases in funding it's and staffing at American public hospitals

but the poor reputation of American mental health care institutions persists by the 1950s and into

the 60s there's a growing movement to replace institutionalization with community-based mental

health care allowing patients to live more normal lives while they get outpatient treatment from

doctors and psychiatrists given all the horror stories from psychiatric hospitals this is seen

as much more humane approach that's conducive to better care in 1963 president Kennedy actually

signs the Community Mental Health Act that's geared in part to establishing these types of community

mental health care centers across the US and that's one of the last pieces of legislation that he

will sign before his assassination but in the decades to follow and especially during the

Ronald Reagan era much of the funding meant to create these centers is slashed and Kennedy's

vision is never fully realized and it's often pointed out that Kennedy was drawn to this issue

because of his sister Rosemary's devastating lobotomy which Georgia covered in episode 259 so

public psychiatric care is so seriously underfunded in this country that jails and prisons have

now become de facto ill-equipped untrained and unwilling mental health providers and while policies

vary from state to state we are not in a particularly progressive era when it comes to this issue

particularly at the federal level and in fact I would say that is a sarcastic understanding

that is it's probably about as bad as it could be right so just months ago Trump's DOJ cut $88

million in grant money for mental health and substance abuse treatment services and training

which is interesting because Republicans after every mass shooting always say we need mental health

services talk about that all the time and then they cut the funding and then in mid-January 2026

the substance abuse and mental health services administration slashed around $2 billion in grant

money for these services and of course Trump's big beautiful bill cut federal Medicaid funding

by 15 percent that's just some of the cuts to the mental health services in this country.

How are we going to go on a necessary war if we don't have money from people who actually

fucking need it it's so blatantly obvious now that I don't think it can be an argument anymore

when we just strip money out of schools children don't get to have air conditioning or crayons

mental health facilities have no staffing and yet here we are in a war in the Middle East that no

one understands why we're there right no health insurance children are starving food is more expensive

than it's ever been right so cost of living is just constantly going now it's beyond and it's

creating a pressure cooker for people with mental health issues as well as everybody else yeah

you should point it at me when you said that but oh my god but you're not wrong if I'm like for

example I meant that was the middle of the table that was a scene I swear I don't mind it

give it to me please I'll take it I'll be the I'll be the spokesperson for like can we please

have some money please can we this horrible event the Oregon state hospital poisoning is a

reminder of the stakes of indifference and neglect when it comes to our national health care

as JFK actually said back in 1963 quote the situation has been tolerated for too long it is

troubled our national conscience but only as a problem unpleasant to mention easy to postpone

and despairing of a solution we can procrastinate no more we must promote to the best of our ability

and by all possible and appropriate means the mental and physical health of all our citizens

and quote and that's the story of the 1942 poisoning at Oregon State Hospital wow and your mom

had never talked about it or anything got yet and heard about it no no but I mean I wonder if

she would have learned about it you know just yeah the kinds of things that can happen if you are

going into a field where they're used to having their funding cut totally I'm sure I'm sure

and there's a real good picture that I think you'd like because it's basically one of the of me

it's you representing all mental health services it's just a pick that really good picture of a

victory garden that when they use they used to do posters and I think it's like it's so timely

it's such a good picture right it's grow your victory garden it counts more than ever we need those

yeah we need to feed ourselves we need to feed our communities I love that we need to take

care of each other um there's a really good book is it written by Zach Elvin I guess oh yeah

why does that come and I have to do with this yeah his gardening show all right it's called the

lost girls of Willough Brook we know Willough Brook State Hospital in Jersey that we talked about

where crops he's from it's an old school book it's a book where a girl goes to find her missing

twin sister and gets committed because they think it's her it's like the 70s ever and it really

explains how awful the experiences in there by firsthand this girl it's called the lost girls

of Willough Brook by Ellen Marie Weisman oh I want to read that I really recommend it if you just like

want to get in there yeah see the reality yeah this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace

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apply great great job thank you verbal story yes here's another one great well this one's got

a little bit of a light in a dark room kind of story we're going to do it in honor of women's

history month wonderful I'm a woman I'm a history month this is a story of a woman who in her early

20s put herself at great personal risk to save the lives of more than 150 Jewish children in

Nazi occupied Holland this is the story of Marion Pritchard hell yes let's get right into it let's

go from fucking world war two to world war two right into that world war two five I just anytime we

talk about these people it's very exciting but it's also that kind of like we should be talking

about what people did during world war two all the time because we need to know the rise up energy

that's right so the main source for this story is a three hour interview with Marion from 1998

conducted by USC show a foundation and the show a foundation was established by Steven Spielberg

shortly after he completed Schindler's list did you know that it started out by collecting the

testimony of Holocaust survivors but has expanded to testimony from survivors of events beyond

world war two and the rest of the sources you can be found in our show notes so Marion

Philippa Van Binsbergen is born on November 7th 1920 in Amsterdam her mother Grace is English

and her father Jacob is Dutch he's a judge coming from a long line of judges on his family side

and so Marion has what sounds like a very happy and idyllic childhood and as a child Marion is

oblivious to any amount of anti-semitism that exists in the Netherlands she's not Jewish she doesn't

really pay attention to it although once when she's jumping rope and singing a jump rope song her

father tells her to stop singing it because it's insulting to Jewish people so they're a little

bit progressive the family but still Marion will find out later decades later that at this point

in time her father does belong to a bridge club that doesn't allow Jews which I think is pretty

normal for the time so anti-semitism certainly around even if Marion isn't particularly attuned to

it she does vividly remember Hitler's rise to power which happened in Germany around the time

she was in middle school and her interview she says quote the general Dutch attitude was this

clown can't last nobody thought that even if he came to power that that would last and quote

yeah heard of it yeah what she does notice is that after 1933 more German Austrian and Polish

children start showing up at her school because their families have fled to the Netherlands

around seventh grade Marion is sent to a British boarding school but her father brings her back

to Amsterdam for high school because he thinks the academics in England are not rigorous enough

and then she attends a very academic Dutch high school and at school Marion is aware that some

of her classmates are Jewish because they don't attend school on Saturday but other girls come from

much more secular families so Marion isn't even aware of the true number of Jewish friends she has

until once the Nazis occupy Holland and then Ali wrote no to Georgia Holland is a region within

the Netherlands and Amsterdam is within this region but there are parts of the Netherlands that are

not Holland appreciate you I don't think we'll ever solve the mystery of Holland yeah

Marion says that her father belongs to what would have been considered a fairly conservative

political party in the Netherlands but in many ways her family particularly her father are quite

progressive for example Marion studies ballet and at ballet school she meets several men whom

she knows are gay and when Marion brings us up with her father he tells her that everyone should

be treated with respect wow yeah which is very progressive yeah back then too by the time Marion's

14 she decides that her ambition in life is to become a psychoanalyst she has an older friend who

is a nurse in a psychiatric hospital hey and learning from her friend makes her want to study

psychology so when she's about 19 and 1940s she enrolls in a social work school in Amsterdam

and she makes this conscious decision not to go to medical school which is what she'd need to do

because by this point the Nazis have already occupied the Netherlands and in order to enroll in

med school she would have to swear a loyalty oath to the Nazis she doesn't want to do it so she

goes to social work school instead that's really creepy to think that that was that's how they infiltrated

everything like what does that have to do why would you have to swear to oath to Nazis to go to

school because you're only going to work for the master race yeah to you know like god yeah do no

harm doesn't really exist anymore yeah you know they etched that off they're just like more snakes

more snakes snakes around the place snakes around everything we love snakes we love snakes the

Nazis had invaded the Netherlands in May of 1940 as you know four months before Marion had started

in social work school but they did not deport the Jews at the Netherlands right away and Marion

points out in this interview that one of the reasons for this is that the Nazis wanted the help

of the Dutch people and the Dutch people didn't really have deep currents of anti-semitism yet I

mean it was obviously there but compared to other countries in Europe it wasn't as hardcore and so

you know there was anti-semitism the idea of deporting not to mention killing their Jewish neighbors

was not really palatable too many of the Dutch so they started slower there around 1941 Marion

believes that Dutch Jews and Jews from other countries who have fled to the Netherlands should make

plans to leave or go into hiding she's noticing how bad it's getting her friends tell her she's

crazy that it's never gonna get that bad in the Netherlands and Marion's father is convinced that

it is going to get that bad she says quote my father's one of the few people that read mine comp

from beginning to end it's awful dull reading I tried and quote meaning like he fucking saw the

writing on the wall yeah and in the book yeah so at this point Marion is around 20 years old and her

social work courses include one day a week spent doing field work so Marion is assigned to a

compound of little houses where families are sent by a judge to live generally if the father is

an alcoholic and can't function the families are sent to these little houses Marion and her fellow

students usually help out here by doing activities with the kids deportations of Jewish people are

beginning to happen around Amsterdam at this time and they're told that they're being deported to

work camps and that families will be kept together but this is of course not true

one day a police officer tips off the head social worker at Marion's field assignment

that a Jewish family in that compound where she helps the children was going to be arrested and

deported that night and so the social worker the head social worker asks each of the social

worker students including Marion to take home a child from that family knowing that what's

happening when they get deported is not good and it's not what they're saying it's gonna be yeah

so that night Marion shows up at home with a little two-year-old boy it's just this dress of like

even just thinking about babysitting yeah my own niece were just like here take a two-year-old

for the day from their family from their family with them it is another ever gonna see them again

yeah nothing's familiar the tension is right there and then just like 10 to that child totally

oh people are I mean it's just like ice so you can imagine the same thing happening right now

we like take this get home because their parents might never be heard from again and they will be

part of that unless you take this child home I mean that happened to people that is happening to

people that did happen to people were like little kids sat at home alone because their parents were

taken and gone and they were just like sitting in a house by themselves sitting in an apartment by

themselves so her parents are completely on board with this and they take care of this little boy

for months Marion's father understands that the boy must be kept hidden but her mom doesn't

totally understand the severity and is less secretive about housing the boy like mentions it to

the milkman who luckily doesn't say anything but Marion is very aware via the Nazi controlled

newspapers that citizens are given a five-dollar reward for turning in their Jewish neighbors and

any neighbors that are hiding Jewish people that in today's money five dollars in 19 like 41 or so

but also in Dutchman I'm not gonna make you do it 300 110 and they also weren't Dutch people not

to aid their Jewish neighbors or that they too will be deported so it's just it's not a slap on

the wrist if you are trying to help hide Jewish people it's you're just treated you know yeah

everybody yeah everybody goes down also that idea that people because it's wartime like I was just

talking about where it's it's the rationing five dollars is so much money totally but if you plant

a victory garden you're not as desperate right you know if there's a potato to go around you don't

have to take that money my grandma you know lived in the fields in Poland for the first seven years

of her life because they burnt down her village in the quagram so she was like the youngest of

five or six kids and her mom would work the potato farms during the day and put a

steal a potato they'd eat the inside of the potato for dinner one night and then next night

they'd eat the skins of the potato and that was what they survived for seven years yeah oh my god

and then one of her brothers would steal a horse from that he was like a really charming kid he'd

steal a horse from one side like the German side and then sell it back to them next day like yes

they survived somehow yeah okay so one day around the spring of 1942 when Marion is 21 years old

she's riding her bike to class when she passes a home for Jewish children these are children that

have been brought from Germany into the Netherlands to protect them from the Nazis and now they're

being deported most likely to a transit camp in the Netherlands and then Auschwitz generally out

these camps children under 15 are just killed when they arrive immediately they can't work elsewhere

in Amsterdam and Frank's family will go into hiding a few months later in the summer of 1942 when

she and her family are eventually discovered and arrested they are sent to this transport camp and

then to Auschwitz so these children who had left their home countries in their homes are now being

rounded up in front of her her face so Marion of course doesn't know any of this yet but watches in

horror as she sees Nazis throwing children onto trucks by their arms their legs one little girl

by her pig tails Marion says quote I'm sitting on my bike not believing my eyes there's two women

coming from the other direction and they try to stop the Nazis and they pick the women up and

through them on top of the kids and drove off and that was when I fully consciously decided that

this was it end quote so at 21 years old Marion decides to be formally involved in the hiding of

Jewish children from the Nazis Marion points out that quote most rescue in Holland was not organized

it was individual effort because the fewer people who knew the better end quote yeah the two-year-old

boy that had been living with them had eventually been moved to another family and Marion doesn't

want to bring home any more kids to live with her family because of her mother's mouth mouth

her mother not getting it it sounds like yeah it seems like that's what happened

so at first Marion's main involvement is to help shuttle Jewish children just to do she wants to

still do something even though she can't hide them in her own house so at first her main involvement

is to help shuttle Jewish children around Amsterdam to families who can keep them hidden

she and other young women carry the kids round on bicycles mostly in broad daylight because to

any observer it would look like the mother and a child their own child on multiple occasions

Marion secures false papers for Jewish babies she takes them to city hall on what she describes

as a quote mission of disgrace and quote and pretends she's an unwed mother and that the children are

hers so she has to show up and be shamed and just to be an unwed mother just so she can get these

children papers which is like you know incredibly badass right for months this is how Marion helps

shuttling children back and forth to families that can house them she estimates that she works in

some capacity on the hiding of about 150 Jewish children then in December of 1942 a friend asked

Marion if she will live with a Jewish man and his three young children to help keep them hidden

they move and do a house outside of Amsterdam which is at the time unoccupied but belongs to a

relative of the friend who had connected Marion with the family so the father of this family is a

man named Fred Polock and his children are Lex who is for Tom who was two and Erica who's less than a

year old and their mother Edwina Moore is only half Jewish but has papers that seem to obscure that

fact so she's able to move freely and she's actually a major figure in the Dutch resistance

but the father and the children are all known to be Jewish so they have to hide so Marion basically

lives in this house and friends of hers in the resistance build a hiding place under the floor

boards of the living room for this family by day it's covered with a rug and a coffee table

and so the family is just able to live in the house but if they need to the family can hide in this

space so Marion practices getting everyone in there so she can do it in less than a minute like

this just has to happen really fast yeah so Marion's friends also leave her with a loaded revolver

just in case Marion hides it on a shelf behind the bed she sleeps in and about a year passes without

any incident and then one evening Marion hears the engine of a car approaching and she knows

that this means it's Nazis because local Dutch people ride bicycles so she quickly gets the family

into the hiding place before opening the door to three Nazis and a Dutch police officer who is now

a Nazi collaborator fucking nark after not finding any Jews in the house because they're on the

hiding place they leave and so Marion has the family stay hidden for another half an hour and then

she lets the children out and feeds them and puts them to bed and just thinks that they

they're gone thinks that the Nazis are gone yeah but then that Dutch Nazi collaborator comes back

and quietly lets himself into the house through an unlocked back door and you've got to wonder so he

comes back alone without the official Nazis is he thinking there's a woman alone in this house

or easy thinking she's hiding Jewish people we don't know but clearly fucking nefarious yeah

clearly there's something to be exploited here and he's here to do it exactly so Marion hears him

and without stopping to think she grabs the revolver from a hiding place and intercepts him before

he walks further into the house to discover where the children are sleeping because we're not in

the hiding place anymore when they come face to face before either of them can say anything she

shoots and kills him she says quote I couldn't think of anything to do but shoot him and quote

so Marion is 23 years old and she's just killed a man and she has absolutely no idea what to do

but her good friend a gay Jewish ballet dancer named Carol with a K is being hidden in the garden shed in the house next door

he has died his hair has a fake ID so he's able to move somewhat freely around the village

and he hears the shots and runs over to her house to see what happened she tells him what happened

and he says I'll help you I've got a plan and Marion says quote if it hadn't been for Carol

we would have been in serious trouble so this guy hears the shot and he's like let's take care of

this yeah so essentially he goes into the village wakes up the baker who he's friends with and then

he and the baker go to see the local undertaker sounds like a nursery rhyme meanwhile they're all

doing this after Nazi imposed curfew so it's dangerous even if he hadn't been Jewish but he is

and so in the morning as soon as the curfew is lifted the baker comes over with his wagon

loads the Nazi's body onto it and then he brings the body to the undertaker and I wonder how many

times has happened the undertaker puts the body of this Nazi police officer into a casket under

another man's body sorry I had to jump on that was so satisfying how many and that idea that

like there is something to be done within these insane circumstances which is stick together and

make a plan together right what can you do if you're not the undertaker you're the baker and you

have a way to transport the body like you can do something yeah and everybody has a kind of part

these parts to play right so the Nazis buried that day with the other man and nobody is the wiser

Marion says quote the world at the time did not neatly divide up into perpetrators victims by

standards and rescuers the delivery man wasn't actively involved in the resistance the mortician

wasn't actively involved in the resistance and yet when asked they cooperated yeah because they

know good from bad I mean it is such a clear thing difficult if you are on meth which many people

were apparently right and difficult if you get brainwashed by this idea that you need to feel

superior to something else but yeah everybody else is looking at it going yeah if there's men

picking up children by their pigtails and trying him to back and truck the men are the bad guys not

the two-year totally or the kid with the pigtails asked for the Dutch Nazi collaborator or the guy

she killed it sounds like he had been disliked by everybody to begin with yeah he's a fucking Nazi

collaborator but it doesn't seem like even the Nazis looked for him yeah he wasn't he wasn't

one of them he's nobody goes looking for him so no one goes and looks into it right Marion and the

pollock family lived together in the house for about another year until the war ends so it doesn't

seem like the story comes to light until later when Marion starts speaking about her experiences

in the eighties yeah so that was just kept a secret yeah glad she talked about it um there were

about 140,000 Jewish people living in the Netherlands and about 28,000 of them went into hiding during

the war of that 28,000 about 12,000 were ultimately discovered in hindsight we can see that people

underestimated the dangers of presenting themselves to the Nazis for deportation to what were

described at the time as labor camps so it and actually overestimated the dangers of going into hiding

yeah almost like that mentality if it'll just be easier if you do what they want right you should

why didn't you cooperate you should have cooperated I think we've all learned that lesson at this

point yeah cooperation is the big mistake and that's why they say that that's why can't cooperate

with fucking liars yeah your resistance is crucial yeah of course hiding was also extremely

dangerous but the odds of survival were better this could not have been achieved without people on

the individual level like Marion stepping in to help in whatever way they could Marion points out

that the parents who gave their children up to be hidden or making the most wrenching decision

possible and were not even completely sure it was the right one she says quote the greatest

rescuers of children were the parents who gave them up and quote I mean there's so many stories

from that time kinder transport and all this they were like people who would smuggle the Jewish

babies out of the slums yeah are they called the ghettos yeah the ghettos where it's like a guy would

go into fix a pipe right and they would stick a baby underneath it I mean like those kinds of

things are just like thank god for those people my other grandma's from Warsaw I mean so bananas

after the war Marion works for the United Nations relief and rehabilitation administration as

a social worker in a displaced persons camp in Germany these camps were where survivors and

refugees were housed until they could reconnect with any other surviving family members it's just so

crazy that like basically when the camps were what's the word broken up like invaded liberated liberate

when the camps were liberated a lot of the prisoners had to stay there and live there because

their homes had been given away or their entire families were murdered yeah they had to stay there

until they could figure out what to do a lot of that is hence Israel like it's just such an insane

extreme stream what an experience like what a yeah so basically they had to live there and there

is where Marion meets a US Army officer named Anton Pritchard and they fall in love and get married

at the camp I know when life is that extreme yeah like something growing out of such incredibly dark

tragic times right the most beautiful I mean that's like the human experience right now Marion

Anton moved to New York where Marion goes back to school to become a psychoanalyst and she works

at a renowned children's psychiatric hospital in the northern suburbs of New York City for much

of her career she also goes on to teach at Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts thank you

to Ali for putting it fanatically which is known for its highly regarded psychology program she's

educated new generations of mental health professionals many of whom ultimately choose to go

into the field because of Marion one colleague says quote not only did she save lives during the 1940s

but she continues to save lives today through her influence and quote so yay for mental health

professionals yeah and leaders yeah and Marion dies in 2016 at the age of 96 wow her family

writes in a bituary about her detailing her accomplishments in world war two but this is the

anecdote they end with saying quote Marion Pritchard was loving and caring with family and friends

and involved in conscientious citizen and a person of great courage and compassion on one occasion

an adult niece and her husband arrived at her home frazzled from a long trip with four restless

children one of them asked is their life after children Marion calmly replied life is children

and quote and that is the story of Dutch resistance hero Marion Pritchard wow I don't I mean I

feel like I've heard versions of that story or like the fictionalized version of that story but I

love hearing the name yeah so that's for women's history month and for how fucked up the world is

right now yeah really Marion she was doing it she didn't give a shit no she did give a shit she did

give a shit you have to give a shit you have to give a shit you have to make the baker give a

shit you have to make the undertaker give a shit you have to get him you have to organize them

that's right and then save some people that's right it's not a tall task I mean

in decent human being as all we're asking just save some children focus on children that's right

for once in your life well that was a very deep episode yeah that we just did I didn't expect that

that was a very like moving episode yeah good job you guys a listeners handle it stay sexy and don't

get murdered goodbye Elvis do you want to cookie

this has been an exactly right production our senior producer is Molly Smith and our

associate producer is Tessa Hughes our editor is Aristotle Acevedo this episode was mixed by

Leona Squalachi our researchers are Marin McLaughlin and Ali Oken email your hometowns to my

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