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true crime
530 - The Great Guy Law-Time Spectacular Part II
About this Episode
On today’s exciting episode, Guy Branum returns and tells Karen and Georgia the story of Baljinder Kaur’s defense in the murder of mother-in-law Baljit Kaur.
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Hosts & Guests
Transcript
This is exactly right.
When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist.
They take matters into their own hands.
I vowed I will be his last target.
He is not going to get away with this.
He's going to get ready to serve.
We always say that.
Trust your girlfriends.
Listen to the girlfriends.
Trust me, babe.
I heart rate you up.
Apple podcasts.
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season on Dear Chelsea with me.
Chelsea Handler.
We have some fantastic guests.
Like Amelia Clark.
When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever.
And my first thing is always can you think of anything else?
That you can do.
That they're big.
Because for today.
Do that.
David O'Yellowow.
I love this podcast.
Whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction.
Or you just go straight for the guts.
Dennis Leary.
Gaiton Matarazzo from Stranger Things.
Santa Mojou.
Camilla Morone.
Carrie Kenny Silver.
And more.
Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app.
Apple podcasts.
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Sometimes a suspect is found guilty before a verdict is ever read in court.
On the Wicked Words podcast.
I talk with the writers who dig deep into the cases that changed history.
Including Marcia Clark who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder cases.
To writing crime fiction.
It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder.
If you were at the scene at all.
You're guilty of murder.
Every week the real story is revealed.
Join us every Monday for new episodes of Wicked Words.
Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeart Radio app.
Apple podcasts.
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello.
And welcome to my favorite murder.
That's Georgia Hartsturk.
That's Karen Kilgera.
And we have a very exciting extra special guest for you today.
That is right.
He's back from one of our listener favorite episodes.
Episode 49.
The great guy lost time new years back to act.
Only nine years.
Welcome guy.
It's good to be here.
I mean so much has happened for my favorite murder.
Since, you know, recording in Karen's living room nine years ago.
Was it my living room?
No, it was my living room.
It was right to have her.
Karen had a house at the time.
I had a shitty ass apartment.
But that's how long ago it was that we don't remember places.
Yes.
It was a while.
And so much has happened for you that time.
Yes, but also along the way.
So frequently at shows I've had people show up and be like,
I heard you on my favorite murder.
And that's why they showed up.
And so I want to thank you guys.
And I want to thank all the murderinos who came to my shows.
Oh, that's so nice.
They definitely love you.
We've heard about it.
It's such a funny.
I mean, we just had a rewind episode where we, like,
go back over an old episode and that episode came up.
It came up because you and I were working on Talk Show,
the game show, which must be syndicated somewhere.
They must be playing it somewhere.
It's on Apple TV.
It was for a brief and glorious period of time on HBO Max.
Was it really?
Yes, but then it went away.
Well, people should watch it because we did a great job.
We did a great job.
We really gave it our all.
I think it says so much about murderinos that an episode
where we talked about the law for, like, an hour and a half
is one of the top episodes we've ever done.
And it just, like, says how smart they are.
Yeah.
And they're, like, can we be on topic, please?
Yeah.
And I were like, no.
No.
Well, it is, like, it's interesting to, like,
as the show has evolved, just sort of, like,
the deep-type energy of it.
And, like, what it is that is so satisfying about it
and created, let's be honest,
the true crime revolution of the last decade.
It was on hacks.
There was a joke that Madison Square Garden had only
been sold out by a live Dungeons & Dragons
and a true crime podcast.
Oh, my God.
And I was like, will they think this is an attack?
It's true that it was not my pitch.
It's true.
That's not a negative.
I'm hearing that.
We like it.
Yeah.
Speaking of hacks, that's what you've been writing on
this couple of years and a couple of seasons now, right?
Yes.
It's very fun.
It's the last season of the show.
And so it was very rare that you get to, like,
land the plane on a scripted show.
And, like, that's really satisfying,
but also a lot of, you know, responsibility.
And also just, like, when you have a show
and it's great performers and, like,
all of the craftspeople are amazing and everything,
like, this year, in the neck,
in the episode that comes out tonight,
we just told them we described a dress to them.
And then they got to create a dress, like,
Rory, one of our costume designers,
who worked for Bob, Goddamn Mackie.
Wow.
God to make a playing card dress.
And it's like, hello.
Now, can you tell us what Jean Smart is actually like?
I mean, the sweetest and the nicest.
Like, I had a very small part in the first season.
And it was the first episode that they shot
because it was during the pandemic
and they couldn't do a pilot.
So it was just there in cast holding with Jean,
all day long.
And she was just like, you know,
my mask had flowers on it and she was adoring it.
And she just, she's so kind and wonderful.
And then Hannah Einminder is somebody who I knew
from being a scrappy little comic.
And then she has this job and responsibility.
And she's so beautifully, like, risen to the occasion
and matched her.
And, you know, I think we all love those shows
where you have a female friendship
and female contention that is all of the beauty
and the complexity of so many other relationships that we have.
Yeah.
And to watch them fill that up has been really awesome.
It's such a special show.
It is so realistic with that relationship that they have.
You're like rooting for at the same time
being like, why are they talking to each other?
But also I want them to be best friends.
Yeah.
And it's like, you know, like,
you have to have these intergenerational relationships
for people to be able to grow and change.
And it really is a show about somebody
who adoption is not growing and changing
and then gets shoved out of her comfort zone.
And those are the kinds of stories I like best.
Now, you've also because you're a Renaissance man.
Yes.
You've done other things like, oh, I don't know,
gone on to Jeopardy and won.
What? You won?
I didn't win the first time to be fair.
Okay.
Well, but I went on and I lost two people
who were like multi-day champions
and then they were kind enough to have me back
for the second chance as tournaments.
Okay.
And then I got to win a game and it was thrilling and delightful.
And like, the first time I was like emotionally wrecked.
I was just like, I had spent the majority of my life waiting
to get on Jeopardy and then I did and I failed.
And then the second time, you know, as everyone does,
I ended up losing.
But it's like, I got to play so much Jeopardy.
I was just happy that I got into play so much Jeopardy.
And you knew how to use that button.
You know when you watch people and they're like,
they're trying to complain or whatever.
It's like, you, I feel like you had it.
But also, I am a middle-aged man.
And it is, like, I do not have the responses
and have always been bad at arcade skills.
So I was not as on top of it as I wanted to be.
Though there is like a beautiful world of like at-home zoom
fight club Jeopardy.
And I'm much better at that buzzer.
Like I'm very, I'm deadly on that buzzer.
What was your like category that you were like, I've got this.
Okay, so for me, anytime I see a Jeopardy category,
I'm like, what is going to be there?
And it was fictitious resonances.
And I was just like, Howard Zend is going to be in there.
And then I fucking got the daily double.
And the daily double was God damn Howard Zend.
Holy shit.
And it was just like, oh, yes.
That's the moment.
And then we're okay.
But also, I had a real failure.
The daily double that wrecked me was it's alphabetically first
of the birthstones.
And my mind was immediately in the 1980 World Book and Cyclopedia.
That it listed like multiple alternates for every month.
I immediately was like amethyst.
But there was anything that could go before amethyst.
And then I stayed in my brain too long.
And then it went for a purpose.
And then I said, agate, like an idiot.
Yeah, I mean, it was like it was, I had the answer.
And I should have just run.
Was it amethyst?
It was amethyst.
I should have just run on adrenaline.
Yeah.
And I didn't.
And that thing between like, should you second gas or should you just
adrenaline is always, you know, it's the roughest.
And like, stand up is supposed to teach us you go on the adrenaline.
I know, but it's a different, if only it was stand up.
Yeah.
There's so many other, when I watch it and I watch people
who are surprised that other people are as smart as them.
Yes.
There is that vibe of like, how do you know amethyst?
When I'm the one that knows amethyst.
Right.
And like, because I was from LA, they had me coming as an alternate.
And I had to watch a full day.
And I watched several days where girl categories just went unspent.
Like three boys were like fashion.
I have nothing.
And I was like, to me.
The day before I was there, the final jeopardy was about wicked.
And no one got it.
Oh, my God.
It was just like, it's a waste.
It's a waste.
It was going.
The thing is, as I had assumed, I am a human being who is no longer scared of live television.
Yeah.
You know?
And I assumed that that would help me in some way.
Definitely.
And the answer is no.
Jeopardy is ancient magic.
Like, that is not television.
It is something else there on the Sony lot, you know?
Yeah.
Can Jennings affect your performance at all?
I feel like him being the end all champion is like a big part of it.
He's so good at the job.
Like, he's so good at the job.
He knows how to be funny and charming and present and effortless.
And he did just in that.
He is so clearly disappointed when people don't know things that they really should know.
And there were a couple.
Like, there was one time, God damn Jeopardy guy.
Yeah.
All they were asking for is for you to say the moors.
And I said, the avocids, I was trying to figure out, like, I was like assuming that they wanted
the, like, Muslim caliphates from the era that went into Spain.
You're going complicated.
Yes.
And I did the wrong one.
It's the umayas.
Sure.
And like, just the look on Ken's face of like, what the fuck do you say?
Yeah.
Disappointed Jeopardy host has to be like something that you'll carry with you for the rest of your
life.
I've never seen it.
Thank God.
Jeopardy?
No.
Oh my gosh.
No.
Can you have to watch it?
Jeopardy host being disappointed in me.
Oh, yeah.
And I never will.
We collectively as a community have been cold-shouldering Ken Jennings on the best game
show host, Emmy, for like four or five years now.
And I think it's time for us to calm down and just show him proper respect.
I think so too.
It was one of the biggest fights me and my sister got into because my family is a Jeopardy
family, seven o'clock, like for 30 years, whatever.
And my sister got into the fight when they were running through the different hosts.
And I'm like, it's Ken Jennings hands goddamn down.
He earned it on the back end.
He's now earning it on the front end.
What other past champions could come and do that job like that where he is doing it in
the spirit of Alex Trebek, but not it's a totally different thing.
And I can't remember.
She bought into some other guy where I'm like, now I'm mad at you and they're like every
night it was a fight.
Well, I feel like Hollywood would respect him more if he went off and did like a light
travel show or something like that and showed us as I'm a host.
He did.
That's not who he is.
No, he's on Jeopardy.
And then he goes back to Seattle, raising those kids, you know, be in a normal guy.
We are stands for him, Ken Jennings stands 100%.
There's two golden rules that any man should live by.
Rule one, never mess with a country girl.
He plays stupid games.
You get stupid prizes.
And rule two, never mess with her friends either.
We always say that.
Trust your girlfriends.
I'm Anasine Field and in this new season of The Girlfriends.
Oh my God, this is the same man.
A group of women discovered they've all dated the same prolific con artist.
I felt like I got hit by a truck.
I thought, how could this happen to me?
The cops didn't seem to care.
So they take matters into their own hands.
They said, oh, hell no.
I vowed I will be his last target.
He's going to get what he deserves.
Listen to The Girlfriends.
Trust me, babe.
On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests, like Amelia Clark.
When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever,
my first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do?
That they're big because for today, do that.
Dennis Leary.
I wake up and I'm hitting him in the head with a water bomb.
And Bruce Jenner is on the aisle in a karate stance.
Like he's about to attack me like, they can karate noises.
And here's the tie of the Kardashians family over there.
Everybody's going, and the airmars is trying to grab my arms and scream.
I immediately know that I've been at sleepwalk.
David O'Yellowo.
I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction,
or you just go straight for the guts.
Guy Brannum.
So anyway, Nicole Kimin broke up with Keith Durbin.
Being half of a country couple was always a hat she was going to wear, not like a life she was going to lead.
Oh, interesting.
I like that.
Did you practice that on your way over?
Gaiton Madarazzo from Stranger Things.
Santa Mojoo.
Camilla Marone.
Carrie Kenney Silver.
And more.
Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Remember when you'd walk into your local video rental place and there were always those two employees behind the counter arguing about movies?
Well, that's us.
I'm Millie DeChirco.
And I'm Casey O'Brien.
And now we're arguing about movies on our podcast.
Dear movies, I love you from the exactly right network.
Can I say something about the criterion closet?
Go ahead, dude.
There are a lot and too many people in there.
Okay, that's another film right by God too.
Sadly, that rental place doesn't exist anymore.
It's probably a store that sells running shoes or an ice cream shop with an extra pee and an E at the end.
So consider us your slacker movie clerks and podcast form.
I would like to establish a timeline of
the moment you figured out who Channing Tatum was.
Every Tuesday, we dig into the movies we can't stop obsessing over from hidden gems to big screen favorites.
New episodes drop every week on the exactly right network.
Listen to Dear movies.
I love you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
We have a podcast to do.
Yes.
Okay, so yeah, this was one of the all-time favorite podcasts,
episodes when you were on the great guide,
a lot of time, New Year's Spectacular.
Yes.
December 28th, 2016.
Where are we ever so young?
I mean, almost a decade ago.
I mean, a pandemic, like the number of things that have happened, you know?
For real, it's hard.
So many.
It's hard to rough your head around.
But we thought it'd be a fun to do.
We have some emails from listeners from the year you were on that we just never answered.
Hopefully.
And also currently because we just did the rewind episode and talked about you again.
So we just wanted to, I don't know, give you some feedback.
Okay.
On your performance.
Yeah.
Well, there's just a lot of he's a national treasure.
Bring him, but demands to bring him back.
And then Chronicles of Kathy writes in,
and I think that's Instagram writes in,
chiming in with everyone saying,
bring at Guy Brannum back on.
I think it's a demand.
And then they're talking about that was because of the rewind.
So basically people heard it and were like,
why haven't you done this already?
Which is great.
If, you know, we love the outside producing.
That's always fun.
bureaucracy runs slow at exactly the right media.
So it's taken 10 years.
Well, also to be fair, at that point in time, I was 15 years out of law school.
And it was a reasonable thing for me to talk about.
Now it's an additional 10 years.
It's really, it's even fussy.
You can fake the whole thing.
We don't know.
We're not kind Jennings.
We don't know the correct answer.
Say anything to us.
We will shake our heads.
Hell yeah.
Well, this one is very, it was emailed in 2018.
It says, hi, Georgia Karen and Stephen wanted to reach out
because you three plus Guy Brannum
helped me get into law school.
That's so cool.
During the admissions process,
each applicant is required to submit a personal statement.
A double space two page essay about why you want to be an attorney.
My first iteration got a unanimous thumbs down from my friends
because the mention of your podcast may be sound creepy below is the excerpt.
I continued my fouries into two crimes spurred on by the weekly release of the podcast.
I came to love called my favorite murder to women hilarious in their own
right get together and talk about interesting murders with an audience
that feels like it was filled with our closest friends.
I felt pulled to join the police force or look into going to school for psychology
until episode 49 when the ladies invited a guest on the show Guy Brannum.
A law school graduate of the University of Minnesota.
His responsibility was to correct any of the past liberties taken with the law
and how it operated in the stories discussed.
He spoke candidly about the differences between first and second-degree murder,
the burden of proof falling to the prosecution
and what was necessary for a murder to occur in the first place.
He challenged their assumptions as a pair and mediated a disagreement
about why statutes of limitations exist and are fair.
He just said that was a big disadvantage.
He discussed the law in relation to gruesome crimes in a matter of fact manner
and it peaked my interest much like the ladies of the podcast.
I had strong feelings about how the law should operate
but no base of knowledge of why or how.
That sounds right.
In my admissions essays final iteration the podcast has a much smaller presence
in the two short pages applicants are given to describe their life, their hardships
and their motivations.
I felt strongly that MFM could not be left out.
Thank you all for inspiring your listeners every week.
Your podcast has altered the course of my life.
Much love from an Oklahoma girl chasing her dream in Boston.
SSDGM Zoe Kent.
That is so lovely.
Oh my god.
That is so touching.
Also beautiful to know that Zoe by this point in time
has a much more like jaded and cold understanding of facts
than I could have ever hoped to have.
Email update from this week.
No.
Kate Schollenbach reached out to say,
remember when you sent this email.
So she wrote an email back to Kate that said,
I am currently a divorce lawyer in Edmund, Oklahoma.
I found after two years of misery that practice in the courtroom
is not what I'm cut out for.
It turns out I'm quite non-confrontational for a law school graduate.
So my boss 76 year old man,
wore tested in the courtroom, runs the front facing side
and I'm his right hand man doing prep work behind the scenes.
All my best to you and the MFM team stay sexy Zoe.
That's so cool.
She did it.
A cure a law influencer.
But also just that thing of like
all the real decisions get made outside of the courtroom.
You know, the real work is done,
especially with something like family law
where you are having to solve real problems
and there is no best,
like it's the best answer, not the right answer.
You know, like that's so cool.
Isn't it good?
Yeah, there's a couple of those.
Yeah, I have a couple of those too.
Georgia and Karen, no time for pleasantries.
I'm too excited to tell you my celebrity story.
It's deeply known among my family and friends
that I cannot and will not remember celebrity names,
faces or roles.
Same.
My attempts are considered comedic entertainment.
When really, I tried my best.
Tonight as I start dinner in the kitchen,
my husband put on a TV show for us
that we recently started watching called Platonic.
As the show plays, a realization dawns on me,
I yell, I know who that is.
And proceed to ask my husband to look
up the entire episode cast.
Mind you, I wasn't watching the show only listening.
Has been says, you wouldn't know the actor
and I proudly prove him wrong.
That's right, it was Guy Brannem
and his un-mistaken voice.
And I can finally guess a celebrity
thanks to your amazing podcast.
The episode 47 live at the Bellhouse
is legendary partly because Guy is laughing in the audience.
That's just the greatest.
Yes, that's right.
I forgot about that.
I say sexy and learn your celebrities
through MFM Collab's Jenna Sheher.
One of my favorite moments is somebody once said to me,
when you at Sandra Bernhardt's album taping
and I was like, no, I wasn't.
And then I was.
You forgot.
Yes, I didn't realize that she was taping an album
when I had been the opening act.
Oh my god.
But it is very fun on Platonic.
I get to play a lawyer.
And the first season,
everyone was constantly telling Rose Byrne,
you know, Guy went to law school.
But also our second AD had gone to law school
and also been a Marine.
And she was like, why is no one ever mentioned that?
Wow.
Rose is very, very nice and very, very lovely.
But she's amazing.
I got to do very important work on that show
because lawyer shows are constantly saying
that people were interns.
And you're not an intern when you're a lawyer,
you're a summer associate.
And I was like, nick it summer associate.
And he was like, thank you.
Yeah, I did.
I would know that, right?
And there was also in the second season,
in the second season, one of the characters
writes a dumb legal thriller.
And afterwards, nick was like, oh,
if you can come up with something better
than that, because I'm not a writer on that show.
Like, this is just what we had as a placeholder.
And they had chosen the funniest thing for it to be about.
It was about torsious interference with contract.
And it was no one else thought it was hilarious.
But I thought it was the funniest thing on the planet.
So sexy.
Can't beat that.
Can't beat that.
Well, here's what we can't beat.
Is that we basically tricked you into doing the homework
for the show today.
Because we know that you love the show.
And we've already done the kind of going over legal stuff.
Yes.
At this point, we don't want to hear it anymore.
Unless there's any updates, do you think we should know?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, no.
OK.
Also, I don't know.
Yeah.
The world has changed that.
Look, our laws have changed in many horrible ways
over the course of the last 10 years.
Really.
Really.
They're primarily to my knowledge, not about criminal faith.
Yeah.
That's very true.
But ever since the origin of this podcast,
when you guys were doing hometown murders,
I, of course, went with.
There was a serial killer from my town.
And I did that as a hometown murder.
But I did end up becoming aware of other murders
from my hometown.
And it is like, the amount of murder
that happens in this country is really
kind of insane.
People are like, when are you going to run out?
And it's like, unfortunately, never, never.
Yeah, because mine is like a little town.
But should I go into it?
Well, what's the town?
Tell us.
OK.
So I am from a little farm town in rural Northern California
called Ubicity.
We grow almonds and peaches and prunes and walnuts.
And serial killers.
And serial killers.
You know, some meth labs.
Is that a sister city to Pelluma?
Yes, we share their meth is the same as our eggs.
And we ship them to each other.
I'm from about two hours northeast of where Karen is from.
OK.
There are mountains in between.
You know, she is poultry and dairy.
And I am nuts and fruits.
A meth.
And with that, we have the full farm airing.
OK, yay.
And one of the other interesting things
about Ubicity in my little town
is that there's a really old Indian community
who emigrated like 100 years ago,
like back when India and Pakistan were still a British colony.
Mostly from a rural farming area in the Northern
India and Pakistan called Punjab.
And there were a couple of Hindu Muslim kids in class,
but it was mostly six.
It was mostly people who practiced the religion of Sikhism,
which is that religion where all the dudes have beards
and turbans and all the ladies have braids.
And it's a beautiful faith that really teaches
that everyone is equal before God.
And that's what, regardless of race or gender
or anything like that.
And that's what it aspires to.
But as with any religion, that doesn't always turn out.
And that's sort of what the story is about.
So over the 100 years that they've been in this country,
they've built up really prosperous farms
and they trucked those fruits and nuts all over the West.
And so now, like 40% of the truckers in California
are Punjabi, about 20% in the Western United States.
Wow, it does stop you really quick.
Because is this why you know so much?
Oftentimes when guys on stage doing comedy,
you'll do crowd work where people will say,
like if people say they're from India,
that's their background, then you'll go into that thing
where you know the city states or the counties.
Yes, you see me, okay, it's funny.
One language they grew up speaking based on what state they're from.
Yes.
And like it's, yeah, I grew up in a town
where it was like one third white people
who from Arkansas, Oklahoma, one third Mexicans
and one third Punjabi.
So interesting.
And so it's just something I took for granted.
And our story begins with a trucker named Jatinder
Singh Graywall.
He was a long-haul trucker in Ubicity.
Now, before 1965, very racist immigration laws meant
that it was very hard for women to immigrate.
So pretty much everyone's grandma in that town
who is Indian is a Mexican.
Mostly they ended up marrying Mexican ladies,
but since 1965, it's been pretty standard
to arrange marriages with ladies who are from India.
So in the early 2000s, when Jatinder Singh Graywall
was around 30, he went back to his family's village
and Punjab, because his parents had arranged a marriage
for him with a registered nurse in Baljinder Corps,
who was in her late 20s.
They got married and they did not have a direct conversation
with each other until the day after they got married.
Wow.
Really?
Yeah.
Wait, do you know anything about why that wouldn't
happen on the day of?
I think because you're doing so much stuff.
There's like, you know, like celebration.
You're just busy.
Yeah, you're busy.
It's not to everybody but the guy you just married.
Yeah, like it's a tradition.
Have you seen Benjit like Beckham?
Yes.
They get mad at her sister and Benjit like Beckham
because she's happy because she's getting married.
And you're supposed to be like, sad,
because you're leaving your family's home
and you're supposed to be sweet and scared by this whole thing.
And so all of that business was taking place.
And then afterwards they were like, hey, who are you
as a person?
Wow.
OK.
All right.
And then one more piece of background,
because this gets a little confusing.
But six have this very complex naming rules.
And so all men have the name Singh, which
is frequently used as a middle name, sometimes as a last name.
And that means lion.
And every woman has the middle or last name core,
which means princess.
And so both of the major players in this story
have B names, and their last name is core.
So I'll try to keep it from being confusing.
The important thing to know is that Baljinder Kor, the young nurse
bride from India, moved to Ubicity into a house
with her husband, Jatinder, her mother-in-law,
Baljit Kor, who was then 63, and her sister-in-law, Kiranjit Man.
And that's when the shit started going down.
When Baljinder arrived in America, her mother-in-law,
Baljit immediately sent back her dowry.
She was like, this is not enough.
Baljinder is not enough of a catch to make that dowry with while.
She demanded more clothing and jewelry and stuff
from Baljinder's parents, who complied.
Baljit made her daughter-in-law do all the housework.
She made Baljinder eat meals separately
from the rest of the family, and she
was not allowed in the living room.
Oh, no.
It was a very Cinderella situation.
Baljinder wanted to study nursing,
so she could get licensed in the United States.
But her mother-in-law said her job was
to take care of the house and have babies.
Then, in 2007, Baljinder got pregnant.
She was excited.
She was doing her job.
She was providing her family with heirs.
Then they found out she was having twins, even better.
And then they found out that the twins were girls.
And Baljit, the mother-in-law, was livid.
So Jatinder was an oldest son.
He was supposed to have an oldest son.
Baljinder's sister-in-law told her that Baljit,
the mom, was probably going to strangle her
for being pregnant with two girls.
I mean, yeah.
Impossible.
And then, midway through the pregnancy,
Baljinder lost one of the babies,
and her mother-in-law rejoiced.
She called the dead fetus, a pest from hell.
Oh, my God.
And said they were lucky the baby had gone back
where it came from.
Oh, my God.
Two weeks after having a C-section for the surviving baby,
Baljinder was expected to resume doing chores for the family.
Baljinder's daughter was considered an embarrassment,
so she wasn't allowed to socialize with her cousins.
And once Baljinder's daughter was in preschool,
she asked if she could spend some time
while her daughter was at preschool studying
to get her nursing license.
And Baljit said that Baljinder's job
was to stay at home and cook and clean.
In 2011, Baljinder got pregnant again.
And her OBGYN, Mininja Jit Atwal,
said that she was always quiet and fearful
during her obstetrics visits.
And when she, Mininja Jit, the doctor,
told Baljinder that she was pregnant with a girl again.
I'll help her, please.
Baljit ordered her daughter-in-law to get an abortion.
They were not wasting any more time
or money on girls.
Baljinder needed to have a boy or nothing at all.
According to Baljinder,
Baljit would put flower or other slippery things
on the floor in the kitchen
in hopes that she would slip and miscarry.
Oh, my God.
Baljit regularly mentioned that it was no big deal
for men to get rid of their wives
if they couldn't produce a male heir.
And then on October 24th, 2012,
when Baljit was 68 years old
and Baljinder was 38 years old and seven months pregnant,
the women were in the kitchen of their home,
and Baljinder was feeding her daughter breakfast.
And Baljit, this baby's grandma got mad.
She said it was a waste of groceries
to be feeding a daughter and yelled,
all you do is eat at the little girl.
Baljinder tried ignoring her,
and after the daughter went off to school,
Baljinder was studying for her nursing credentials.
Baljit came into the room and accused Baljinder
of having an affair.
The second daughter could not possibly be Jit in their son.
Baljit started pulling Baljinder's hair.
Baljinder testified that her mother-in-law said,
today is the day we're going to end this.
You die where the baby dies.
Baljinder snapped.
She went into the garage and she found a small hatchet
and she walked back into the house with her.
By that time, Baljit had calmed down.
So Baljinder put the hatchet down.
But when Baljinder tried to leave the house to go study,
Baljit started yelling at her
and jabbing Baljinder's stomach with her glasses.
Baljinder said she was convinced
that she had to do something to save her baby.
She later testified, I was blinded at the moment.
I was out of my mind.
Baljinder picked up the hatchet and hit Baljit in the head
with the hatchet seven times, causing four skull fractures.
Baljit fell to the ground and Baljinder took Baljit's scarf
and strangled her with it.
Once Baljinder realized what she was doing,
she said she tried to loosen the scarf.
There were no witnesses.
Baljit's daughter later found the body around noon.
But Baljinder just left.
She went and she hid the hatchet in a dumpster at a park
and then she went to her study session with her study partner
and basically tried to get her study partner
to give her an alibi to say that she had been there
when it happened.
So this is a woman who's basically emigrated here
and has no family here.
Yes, so she specifically tried to get her family
to start the immigration process for her family
and Jettinder was like, no, that's not okay.
So this is somebody who doesn't have super confident English,
who doesn't have an income of any sort,
who's entirely alone in this house
and is having to deal with this constantly every day.
And then she just snapped.
Yeah, wow.
So that night, Baljinder told her husband
about the killing.
She told him what had happened and Jettinder said
that he was too tired to think about it
and that they would deal with it in the morning.
So they had found her already
and they didn't call the police.
They called the police.
They called the police, but they were like,
we don't know what happened.
We don't know anything about this.
Then when she admits it to her husband,
he's like, we'll deal with it later.
Yeah.
So do you think that was just complete denial?
Was he like just...
I'm sure it was overwhelming.
Like it is just sort of like my mom's dad
and like this is what happens,
but also it is kind of bonkers to just like,
it's hard after all of the dismissal
that she deals with in this story
to not just see it as another dismissal, you know?
But I wonder if that husband
since he's so not present for the other abuse
from the mother-in-law
or doesn't isn't doing anything
or is basically co-signing it.
Yeah.
So almost like, does he know that that was wrong
and that essentially that's a part of it?
Right.
So two days later, Jatinder took Baljinder
to the sheriff's department to explain what had happened,
but he warned her to not drag his mother
or his family through the mud.
So clearly he was aware enough of what was going on
that he understood that this could be embarrassing.
Yeah, but also there's a motive.
But it's like, don't tell them the motive.
Baljinder confessed to a Punjabi speaking sheriff's deputy,
but at her husband's coaching,
she made no mention of her mother-in-law's threats or attacks.
Baljinder was charged with first-degree murder
and an enhancement for using a deadly weapon.
She was arrested, and let's remember,
she was seven months pregnant.
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Listen to The Girlfriends.
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This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler,
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When young people come up to me,
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After this point in time, well, Jinders' husband, Jitinder,
drops her.
He does not attend any of the trial.
He's given her nothing.
He and his family are horrified by this murder.
So, well, Jinders is alone in this country,
has no close family.
And court records indicate that she needed translators most
of the time, so not a super strong English speaker.
She did not have an ally.
She was initially appointed a non-Punjabi speaking
public defender, but her parents from India
found a Punjabi speaking defense attorney in Ubicity,
named Mani Sadoo, a Punjabi American criminal defense
attorney, but somebody who had grown up in the United States
and lived in Ubicity his entire life, except for law school.
There are no law schools in Ubicity.
That's shocking.
Now, the question of how to defend this case
is really, really interesting.
In California, self-defense allows you to resist
an unlawful act to target at you or someone else.
And it says you're allowed to use the level of force
required to prevent the offense.
But for self-defense in California, as in most states,
it is required that a person have an honest and reasonable
belief that it is necessary to use deadly force to prevent
peril to life or grievous bodily injury.
So they themselves need to actually have the fear.
A reasonable person in their place
would need to have the same fear, and it needs to be necessary.
While gender isn't a bad situation on multiple counts,
she believed that her unborn child was in danger,
but it is unclear whether another reasonable person
would have had the same fear.
It's probably not true that use of deadly force
was necessary to avoid it.
It's very easy to say she could have just left.
She could have just this.
She could have just that.
And the threat wasn't really imminent.
The question of imminent, what is the budget,
what was she going to do, is uncertain.
Can I ask the fact that she went and got the hatchet
and put it there and then walked away.
Is that premeditation?
Because if she had gotten the hatchet and done it immediately,
it wouldn't have been premeditation.
So one of the things about this is it's really interesting
that it wasn't defended in that way,
with an attempt to lower it to voluntary,
to some sort of voluntary manslaughter
or something like that, to say,
because for a heightened state,
when you have imperfect self-defense or crime of passion,
you need that person to be in that state.
And you're very right that it would have been very easy
to point to that cool down,
but one could also argue that the fight still
going on, but going and getting a hatchet
is definitely premeditation.
And also just the weapon of a hatchet,
like anytime that's the story, it's just so extreme.
And also that it was fractured
and that there's no mention of blood
is very fascinating to me,
because I'm like, was she hitting with the blunt end
or the edge end, but also is it like,
if she were a smaller woman, in my head,
it makes me think about that hitting in a different way.
Like perhaps something heavy to defend yourself
in your baby, because that may be the mentality.
Yeah.
Yeah, interesting.
The obvious way to defend this case
would have been a thing called better person syndrome.
I think you guys talked about it
when you talked about the Francine Hughes case
in episode 465.
And that's exactly what Georgia is talking about,
saying that a person was so freaked out,
they thought the only way out was an act of violence like this.
A person is so psychologically distressed
by a pattern of spousal abuse usually
that it makes the person believe deadly force
is the only way to escape.
It usually doesn't completely exonerate you,
but you get downgraded to some level of manslaughter.
But that's not what Monika did.
His defense was really innovative.
And I actually called him and spoke to him
to understand more about it.
Yes.
Well, the thing is, is like Stanford professors were like,
oh, this is really cool.
This is really interesting.
And I wanted to understand better
how he formulated this idea.
And it was really cool because as somebody
who was a member of that community, when I talked to him,
he was just like, oh, I didn't formulate it.
It was just my immediate reaction.
I love guy doing our job better than we do.
A, just be.
Making rolling calls.
You're an investigative journalist now.
But it's also like, this is a man from my hometown
who is the same age as me.
Not hard to find.
I have 100% been to his cousin's birthday.
It's, you know, like amazing.
He said that when Baljinder's family called him
and explained this situation to him,
he had two-year-old twin daughters
and his wife was pregnant with another girl.
And he could only see this situation
through the phenomenon of gender side.
That is killing children and aborting fetuses
to avoid having girl children.
He knew that this was a cultural idea
that existed in South Asia and that it was an idea
that could have affected his own daughters.
And it was something that he wanted to stop.
So he took the case and he put together a defense
like no one had ever seen before.
So gender side is a very significant issue in India and China
in India because male children stay in the home.
They contribute to the income of the family.
Girls go off to their husbands house.
You have to pay for a dowry.
Frequently, girl children could be seen
as an economic burden.
In 19 maybe four, a UN study it showed
that of 8,000 abortions from six Mumbai hospitals,
7,999 of them were female fetuses.
That's insane.
In 1990, Nobel Prize winning economist Amartya Sen
estimated that there are 100 million women
who are demographically not present in the world.
That is based on birth rates and life expectancy rates.
Things are off by 100 million people
because of the huge number of girls who should have been foreign
or I also believe to some extent with victims of violence.
Monies told me that he believes gender side in India
is huge and it is trickled out here.
Monie went in to stop it and his first choice
was getting a jury who would understand the problem.
So we got a jury that was 10 women and two men,
including one Punjabi woman.
And Monie says that that woman cried repeatedly
during the trial.
Monie's defense centered on the idea
that while gender defending a fetus inside of her
was self-defense, and that a reasonable person
who understood the culture of gender side
would understand that threat as imminent.
The way he proved it was really kind of strange though.
He called two expert witnesses,
Sally Sutherland Goldman and Robert Goldman,
who are Sanskrit professors at Berkeley.
That's like an ancient Indian language
that is used in religious stuff, but nobody speaks.
It's like calling a Latin professor to testify
about Italian-American families in New Jersey.
Right.
That's very interesting.
It's like you come from a town full of Punjabi Americans.
Why did you think that they were the people
who were best able to testify about this?
But when I talked to Monie,
he insisted that the Goldman's were the right experts
because they live in India six months out of the year.
In his words, because most of the U.S.
Punjabis have lived in America for generations,
the Goldman's are more Indian than we are.
He, a South Asian man, not me, was saying.
The Goldman's testified that Baljinder's testimony
about her treatment by a budget
was entirely consistent with what we know
of similar situations in India
and the Indo-American community.
The Goldman's quoted a 2007 UN study
that estimated that 7,000 girl fetuses
are aborted in India each day.
A therapist who evaluated Baljinder
said that she had severe depression and PTSD
and, quote, the abuse was escalating
and she had no way out.
She felt trapped and afraid for her life.
She's afraid for her life.
She's afraid for her children's life
and she hasn't literally no way to get out.
Like that thing of when you were talking
about the actual exchange and then I was like,
people will go like, well, why didn't you just get out?
And it's like, what, run into the street and go where?
And hope somebody will help you
even though you can't speak English.
Like this place is alien.
You don't have resources.
Like you assume that even the people
who speak your language and are within your community,
might be inclined to agree with your mother-in-law
and set of you, right?
Like it's a terrifying situation.
I mean, that is interesting why he had the Goldbergs come on
because it's almost like they're outsiders
and can see the issue in a way that someone
who's grown up in that culture
like wouldn't necessarily see.
The PR of this is a huge thing
because the other things who know about the sick community
in America is that after 9-11,
there was a huge increase in anti-sick violence.
White Americans blamed Muslims for 9-11
and attacked Muslims and people they perceived to be Muslims.
And since observant six were visible turbines, the men,
they'd been subject to a bunch of attacks and murders,
including a murder in Arizona,
I mean, like not long after 9-11
and a shooting at a sick temple in 2012
that took six lives.
Like when I was growing up,
it was a relatively insular community.
You know, all of the communities in my area were,
but after 9-11, the way that things changed,
the way it became come to Vaisaki, have some semosas.
Like, you know, these fireworks are for you as much as us
and it was about an understanding that communicating
what sickism was about and positivity was really important.
In this case, got them so worried
about how they were being perceived.
Also to be clear, violence against anyone
for their religion is horrible,
but these six were killed by people
who hated a different religion
and couldn't tell the difference.
So they got this huge PR push
and members of the community freaked out
by what this defense might say
about public perception of their community,
flooded Monning Seduce phone,
saying that he was dragging the community through the mud
by highlighting gender side
and making it look like abuse by mother-in-laws was common.
Members of the sick community step forwards
with statements about how they had never witnessed
such aggression towards anyone who had a daughter
and saying their mother-in-laws don't on their daughters
as much as their sons.
A prominent sick leader from Sacramento,
Darshan Singh Lindy, said,
I've never heard of a single confrontation
over the gender of an unborn child.
But he's talking as a several generation
in Sikh American, right?
As opposed to culturally Sikh from India.
Right.
And also somebody who is like invested in trying
to show the best side of this community, you know?
It's like whether you have great sympathy
with Baljinder or great sympathy with Baljid,
like there's the possibility of this looking
very, very bad to outsiders.
In Yiddish we call it a Shanda for Tagoya.
You're embarrassing us in front of the Gentiles.
And this was like such a Punjabi Shanda
for Tagoya moment.
And you had this Punjabi American attorney
who was leading it, who was doing the thing
that was embarrassing, but he was doing it
because he thought it was the most just
and reasonable way of defending somebody
who had been in a horrible situation.
Yeah, yeah.
Also can I ask, because I'm assuming, you know,
I went to college in Sacramento being from Northern California.
But Ubicity also being like an agricultural area
that those kind of 911 vibes, more intense
or do you think because there was such a large Indian population
that there was more balance in Ubicity?
I don't think there was more balance in Ubicity.
I think that, you know, it is a rural community
with a lot of conservatism and a lot of guns.
And I think that there is the awareness in Ubicity
of just like you went to high school with these guys.
You know what's going on.
But not everybody is directly from our community.
You have, you know, you go 10 miles in another direction
and people don't understand.
And so, you know, hostility and racism
that has always been there was even more intense.
And it was very sweet to watch these rural community temples
like taking on this PR problem of like,
how do we make people understand who we are?
Yeah.
So the trial for Belgian there lasted eight days.
And the jury, the 10 women and two men,
took a day and a half to come to a verdict of not guilty.
Wow.
One of the jurors, Michelle Strue,
said, we believe she acted in self-defense of her child.
We didn't feel her decision was perfect.
We felt she was not guilty rather than innocent.
We could not find guilt based on the law.
And that was for first degree, right?
They never lowered it to manslaughter.
No, and that's the thing is that it would have made
the most sense.
Like the most straightforward way of doing this
is trying to get her eight years for voluntary manslaughter
because she had been in a very difficult state.
His strategy was basically saying,
if you understood this culture,
the way that this woman does,
if you had the same outlook as her,
you would have reasonably thought
that this person was going to intently kill you
or the other potential life that was in your body.
And that was a big swing,
but it was a big swing that worked all the way.
Is that on the prosecutor for not lowering the charges?
Oh, who is it the prosecutor
who would have lowered those charges?
Well, I don't know whether you could concurrently charge
with both of them.
Potentially, you could have offered a plea bargain
for that to just agree to it.
But it may have been on,
that's a really good point that it may have been
a situation where if,
but also that prosecutor did not understand
what was going on.
Like when he was interviewed afterwards,
he was like, there was a lot of uncertainty
about these details and I think they thought
that she was battered.
Something along the lines of saying,
I think that the jury thought
that she had been the victim of domestic violence.
And I think that that prosecutor was saying it
with his law school brain
through battered person syndrome
and didn't quite understand or counter
what Monice to do was doing.
And I think he probably would have needed
to bring in some cultural experts
to say this was not reasonable for her
to be thinking this way.
And he didn't even go at that.
He was just saying she hit her in the head with an axe.
That's murder, ladies and gentlemen.
It's like they were trying to totally different trials.
Yes, yes.
And that was why I was so fascinated and dazzled by it
was he just sort of outthought this guy
and in a way that connected with the jury.
And that's both being a good legal mind
and being a good lawyer.
And tough, because you're saying only one Punjabi woman
was on that, can you swallow this whole narrative?
Can you learn this whole new cultural norm,
accept it, and then be thinking about this trial?
Yeah, and there is the way from the Punjabi community
that this is a bad cliche of what that community is like.
And I understand that uncertainty and that fear.
But I also, my sympathy is with Bajinder.
My sympathy is with this person who had somebody
threatening the life of the fetus inside of them every day.
And that's going to wear on you.
Stanford professor Robert Weisberg said,
this is a fascinating case.
The defense accounting for cultural standards
and gender science is plausible and obviously worked.
Even if the threats weren't direct,
given what the daughter-in-law knew
about the mother-in-law's attitude towards female children,
it's reasonable to believe that if she
was such a horrible, hellish person,
posted an unusual threat to Bajinder and her unborn baby.
In addition to local press, the story was heavily covered
by the Indian press for obvious reasons.
But it was also heavily covered by the American Catholic press.
What?
Oh.
Because they liked the angle that Bajinder
was acquitted for murder for defending the life of a fetus.
Right.
How can we make this about pro-life?
And if it says anything about the truth of Bajinder's accusations,
this budget core is not the only budget core
who was killed by her daughter-in-law
after he was of abuse.
In 2011 in England, a woman named Rushlander
Core beat her mother-in-law, named Bajinder Core,
to death with a rolling pin.
I found a bunch of cases between parents and law
and daughters-in-law going both ways.
There was one case where they were like,
sure, we'll give you the divorce.
If you go to these two weddings in India,
she showed up to the two weddings in India,
and they took her out.
Seeing that stuff from me substantiated Bajinder's fears.
Oh, including a case in Bakersfield, California,
where a pissed off daughter-in-law
threatened to pull out her father-in-law's beard
and shove it up his ass.
And he picked up a revolver and shot her three times
and said it was reasonable because she had dishonored him.
So that is the story of the murder of Bajit Core.
Oh, my God.
We wouldn't have invited you on
if we thought you'd do it better than us, goddamn you.
It was so much fun.
Like, it really was fun.
And it was something that I had found back in the day
when I was just sort of like searching around for stuff
about Juan Corona.
Right, great.
And I was just like, this is so juicy.
And when you first mentioned it, I was like,
oh, yeah, I want to do that, that woman with the axe.
Like, because in my head, all I remembered
was just a lady on a staircase with an axe,
which I made up entirely in my head,
other than the axe.
The staircase.
I love that you're doing a case that's
you're passionate about because of the legal parts of it,
so fascinating.
Like, the legal parts are so fascinating
and the social parts are something that, first of all,
everything I'm saying is not what the opinions
of Karen or Georgia are my favorite murder.
And also, we understand very much that these are delicate
and sensitive issues about perceptions of a community.
And I have so much respect for that.
But it's also a world that influenced so many people
that I loved and grew up with who saw various other flavors
and signs of this perception of women
that is at odds with the very fundamentals of sickism.
Like, sickism, there's a cool holiday about one time
when all the ladies had to get together and fight a battle.
Like, it is very much a religion about everybody
is directly equal before God, but in practice,
as we know from Judaism or Catholicism or any religion,
like, sometimes that doesn't happen in the culture.
And it was really rough.
And it's horrible that you went through it.
And the other lovely thing is when I was talking to money,
we just talked for like 10 minutes and he was like,
you know, I got a cul-ball gender.
And he was just like, and to him, you know,
this guy is a criminal defense attorney in Ubicity.
He's doing stuff every day.
And to him, this was just a thing from 10, 15 years ago
that he hadn't really thought about.
But I was really impressed by what a smart, incapable
and conscientious attorney he was.
Yeah, I love that the implications were so obvious to you.
And he probably, it didn't even occur to him at the time.
He was doing the job, you know?
I also love that you buried the lead
that there was the exact same murder.
Oh, like the same name, that's wild.
Well, no, it was really funny because, look, there were a couple.
Like, I like that there were some ballgenders
and it made googling heart because these other things
were popping up in their place.
But it made clear that there was this real, you know,
power problem in that relationship.
That, you know, when I think that's the really cool
and interesting thing about looking at the world
through murder is like so much of the time
it is about a power imbalance that like comes to a head.
Yeah.
It also like that idea that it's generations of immigrants
and it's like the first generation
is holding the old caste systems or the old ways
or the old beliefs.
And then every generation, it changes
and it gets, you know, the kids have a deed as tennis shoes
and they're using slang and whatever.
And it's like that distance is part of what makes America great.
And then it's so funny.
I was working on a romcom with a guy
who was one of my niece Olivia's community college professors
who is Punjabi Sikh and I was describing a situation
that occurred with some of the women from like my age.
I mean, he was just like, it doesn't work like that anymore.
You know, it's like times have changed.
What people, and it was very much about like gender balance
and you know, a perception of women's value.
And he was just like, that's not the world anymore guy
and I had to feel old and then, you know,
we had to adjust the romcom.
Three right.
I mean, amazing.
Thank you so much.
It was really fun.
You've done it again.
I love it.
It was so good.
Well, you have to come back and do it again, please.
Yeah.
Maybe in six years.
Yes.
Yes.
It's not so long next time.
But I just want to say to you guys and to everyone listening,
how much I have appreciated in a tiny way
being a part of the My Favorite Murder family
and have always really felt it.
That means so much.
Thank you.
We love you.
We love you.
Incredible by the way.
Yeah.
That was so great.
Let's plug your things.
Oh, yeah.
That sounds terrible.
Yeah.
Some plugs.
So your new comedy, stop that train.
Yes.
Tell us everything.
I got a small part in the RuPaul's Drag Race movie.
It's very exciting.
I play Train Traffic Conductor Number One.
Train Traffic Conductor Number Two.
Of course, played by Charo.
Are you serious?
Yes.
Did you spend time with Charo?
I spent two days with Charo.
There's no off position on Charo.
Like, she's just, she's never not doing it periodically.
Adam Shankman would have to be like, hey, quiet down.
Because Charo was telling me her origin
with the Roma people of Spain learning to play the guitar.
Like, she's just unstoppable and amazing.
And she looks the same.
Yeah.
Like, we watched her on like television in 1979.
Yeah.
And she looks exactly the same.
And she dances.
Like, she's incredible.
Yeah.
She was unstoppable and it was so much fun.
But the movie comes out on June 12th.
And it's very much like Airplane or Mel Brooks movie.
It is very spoofy and fun.
Nice.
I'm so excited for that.
That's awesome.
And then you're also going to do the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
Georgia, thank you for bringing that up.
It turns out that tickets are now available
from my show Be Fruitful at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
So if people go to my Instagram and click on the link there,
if you're going to be in Edinburgh or the UK,
it's a very funny show about fruit and religion and evolution
and all sorts of things before it becomes terribly, terribly personal.
But I'm very proud of the show.
And if you're a murderino in Britain, please come see me.
Yeah.
I mean, congratulations.
Getting into the Fringe Festival is a big deal.
It's truly terrifying.
It's like so enormous.
And I'm like, this will destroy me as a person.
I'm no longer young.
But it's good.
I was there last year.
And the energy in the city is unbelievable.
It's going to be such an incredible.
What did you see that was good?
I saw a wrestling show that was about a medieval romance.
Oh.
Yeah.
It was incredible.
Yeah.
I mean, the thing I'm most excited for is just to get to be there
and like, deal with the personalities and see the stuff
that isn't the same time as me.
Yeah.
And be in it all.
Be in it.
Oh, right.
Oh, right.
Is that the one where like they do the whole Frankenstein?
It's alive.
It's alive.
The bar that's like the Frankenstein theme.
I had no idea.
That sounds very fun.
Well, I am like, well, if I'm there for a month,
I kind of have to be an irresponsible child.
He's pretty much just drinking and having a good time
and making friends.
It's a camp.
It's a camp.
It's going to have to.
So we got platonic.
We got hacks.
Yes.
Covered the fun things.
I mean, I'm clearly we have a professional writer coming in
to play our game with this.
Thank you so much for saying yes to this.
We love you so much.
Thank you.
It was so much fun.
And also thank you for going on a ride to my hometown
and the weird specificities of that,
because that part was really, really fun.
I think we all learned something.
Everyone.
A lot.
Thank you.
Well, amazing.
Yeah.
Thanks, Guy.
And thanks everyone for listening and hanging out.
And we're going to wrap it up.
Yeah.
By saying stay sexy.
Don't get murdered.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
Elvis, do you want a cookie?
Ah!
Ah!
This has been an exactly right production.
Our senior producer is Molly Smith,
and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
This episode was mixed by Leonis Koalachi.
Our researchers are Mary Maglachin and Ali Elkin.
Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com
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Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeart Radio app,
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That's the best way you can support our show.
Goodbye.
When a group of women discover they've all dated
the same prolific con artist.
They take matters into their own hands.
I bowed.
I will be his last target.
He is not going to get away with this.
He's going to get ready to serve.
We always say that.
Trust your girlfriends.
Listen to the girlfriends.
Trust me, babe.
On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
This season on Dear Chelsea,
with me, Chelsea Handler,
we have some fantastic guests,
like Amelia Clark.
When like young people come up to me
and they want to be an actor or whatever,
everything is always,
can you think of anything else?
That you can do, rather big.
Because...
Do that.
David O'Yellowo.
I love this podcast,
whether it's therapy or relationships
or religion or sex or addiction
or you just go straight for the guts.
Dennis Leary,
Gaiton Matarazzo from Stranger Things.
Santa Mojou,
Camilla Marone,
Carrie Kenny Silver,
and more.
Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea
on iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Sometimes a suspect is found guilty
before a verdict is ever read in court.
On the Wicked Words podcast,
I talk with the writers who dig deep
into the cases that changed history,
including Marcia Clark,
who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder cases
to writing crime fiction.
It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder.
If you were at the scene at all,
it would be a murder.
Every week, the real story is revealed.
Join us every Monday for new episodes of Wicked Words.
Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
