6337 Has My Wife BETRAYED ME? CALL IN SHOW

Okay, so my main problems, I feel like I'm stuck with right now are procrastination and

avoidance.

I am currently married, I've been married for three and a half years and I have a two

year old.

I walked away from both of my parents and the rest of my family over three years ago, right

after my wife and I had gotten married.

I've been a free domain listener for ten years and I've done a lot of work on myself over

that time.

My marriage is very strong overall, however I've had a lifelong struggle with both procrastination

and avoidance that I have been unable to move past.

Additionally, I continue to struggle with asserting my needs and wants and my relationship

with my wife and in general just other relationships and despite her encouragement for me to do so,

I feel stuck and would really appreciate any wisdom that you can provide me, Stephanie.

Sounds good and how old are you?

I am, see, I attended the track, I'm 32.

And how long have you been married?

Then three and a half years.

And any kids?

Just the one, two year old.

Okay.

Alright.

So is the procrastination in work?

So you say procrastination and avoidance.

So yeah, just tell me the two areas where those are showing up the most.

Yeah, I'd say like it can be fairly general, but I'd say my primary thing is,

when it comes to people, one aspect of it is I tend to avoid responding to people

just over text messages or anything like that.

Even I tend to just put it off and I've always done that to an extent.

Whether it is going back to when I was little, my mother would ask me to like,

oh, I got a card from a grandparents in the mail and she'd ask me to call them

and then I would feel like anxious about calling them.

And I would put it off and no longer I put it off like it would, I would get scolded

and then I would, it would kind of snowball into being this bigger and bigger thing no longer

I put it off.

And that is kind of like how I see things now to an extent is where I just like put off

responding to somebody and even at like in my, I work from home.

And so I'm, you know, responding to people over chat all the time and like sometimes

or just like if I don't get back to somebody right away, then it is sort of snowball

as a mind of like just increasingly like to feel like I get more and more worried about

responding to them if I have been got back to them early.

So that's an example of like people in that regard.

I do to stand to like procrastinate like sometimes like household tasks or just like simple

things, just like things that I, man, my wife and I have things that we look to get done.

I tell her I'll go do something that are that yeah, I could just done by tomorrow or whatever

and then I just like don't end up getting to it right away.

So that's kind of a high level.

Do you have any specific questions around that or yeah, that's like what area do you work

in?

I am a software engineer.

Ah, okay.

Got it.

And does your wife work?

She does not.

She is.

Same on mom.

I know.

Okay.

And how is your career at what going my career is actually going very well.

I'd say like despite my procrastination in certain ways, it doesn't ultimately limit

me there too much.

I've had certain circumstances of where the procrastination is around like responding

to people and something that can be a little bit problem, but like overall it is had not

a lot of impact.

I mean, slowly on my career, it's more than anything is to stuff around home that I tend

to have issues with in a personal life type of stuff.

Okay.

And what is your wife's perspective on your procrastination and avoidance?

Definitely is something that's very frustrating for her.

I think that it gets in the way of her trust in me will sometimes in the sense that I like

to say I'll get something done.

And I mean to when I say that, at least I think I do, but I just like either forget about

it or I just like put it off a little bit and I just don't, yeah, it bothers her first

certainly because she gets, she doesn't want to nag me.

She doesn't want to have to nag me to get something done that needs to be done around

the house like or something that she wanted me to get done.

Okay.

So can you give me an example of projects around the house that frustrates you away?

Yeah.

I mean, an example of something right now is just like there, we put up curtains recently

and there's a holder for each of the curtains that she wants me to install next to the

windows and you know, makes sense.

I said I would do it.

I didn't have a problem with the request in general and it just haven't done it yet.

I don't and typically enjoy that type of task too much and I just like, yeah, I haven't

gotten to it yet.

Okay.

And when you say you haven't gotten to it yet, it's how long would the task take?

I'd probably take me like a half hour to do so.

And it would be very like, I'm just walking through what would typically go in my head

is like when I'm thinking about doing it, well, it's something, it may be my daughter's

asleep and hearing her nap and it'd be too loud for me to do it during a time for him

where she is asleep and I don't want to wake her up and there's certainly, again, like

on a weekend, I could do it, there's time, but like then there's priorities of around

other things and yeah, I don't know, I'm getting a little mixed up right now, but okay.

So your concern is that there's always something in the way or always something else to do?

I would say, yes, oftentimes that's something like that.

Okay.

So tell me a little bit about your ability to will things as a child, so to speak.

I mean, certainly when I came to my parents and my interactions with them, there was not

much that I could will.

I typically didn't try to will things.

Well, that's a 16-tonc, okay, can you tell me a little bit more?

Yeah, sorry, I mean, my input was not particularly, I tried to take it the right way to put this.

It was typically, things that I wanted or things that I wanted to do, I was typically afraid

to ask for those.

I was more just like trying to blend in and not and just kind of go with whatever would

be the least disruptive at all times, and so typically I was not one that would try to

ask for things out right with my parents.

I would sometimes try to lead them to a conclusion or be indirect in a way of trying to get them

to think I wanted something or needed something, but I typically wouldn't ask them out right

for it.

And when?

It's hard for me to specifically say why with my mom in particular, but my dad, I mean,

my dad was a drunk and moody all the time.

It was very much like trying to keep him, just always trying to keep him in a good mood,

always trying to make sure that I didn't step on his toes or anything, and sometimes it

was impossible to avoid that.

There's sometimes nothing to do with anything I was doing, and it was just even my best

efforts to avoid that situation with them, or he would get really upset, or what, even

to avoid that, like there wasn't, sometimes it wasn't possible.

And I'm really sorry to hear about that.

So tell me a little bit about the alcoholism, how bad was it, how often was it, how fine

did it go, did he ever quit?

He always abused alcohol throughout my entire childhood, he still does now.

I know.

He does.

He always had a very abusive relationship with it.

I wouldn't say he had like, he wasn't an alcoholic in the physical dependence sense, but

he had it more like in the, like it was his crutch from a mental standpoint.

He couldn't deal with his own like internal demons thoughts, and so he always had to be

like drunk.

He'd get home from work and he'd start drinking, and he'd put down, you know, at least

a 12 pack a night, typically was average of beer.

And so it was like my time with him generally was like more often with him drunk than silver

also at the time.

So yeah, it was always like that, it was never physically abusive with me.

There was a couple like, okay, arguably like a few different times I was like very close,

but in general it was just very like verbally abusive, very just, and just, he did have

kind of throw tantrums.

If he was in a bad mood and he was drinking, he'd just have tantrums often times.

So when you say drunk, I mean, are we talking like climb the stairs or like how drunk?

Um, it would, it would vary, but I mean quite often would be him like, yeah, like stumbling

around and falling asleep in the chair in the living room and, you know, greatly slurring

his words and stuff like that.

So yeah, it was often times very, very drunk.

Okay.

And what's this?

You said we'd come home from work.

Was it any different on the weekends?

Uh, I mean, it was just where he'd start sooner.

So just be, you know, 11, 11 a.m., you know, something like that, typically.

Wow.

And do you have any idea when he started drinking as a whole?

Like, sorry.

I just said 11 a.m., I meant, uh, in his life.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, he was probably 10 or 12 when he started drinking something like that.

Wow.

Maybe sooner.

Um, I mean, yeah, that, that his, his whole life arc is pretty bad.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit about you said he was controlling his demons.

What were the demons that you know of?

Yeah.

I mean, his, his mom, his mother, my grandmother, uh, was extremely physically abusive.

And you, of course, wouldn't be surprised here that she was a single mom.

Um, his dad was not in the picture.

My grandpa was not really much in the picture.

He'd see him during the summers and stuff like that, but he was not like, particularly

available.

Um, and he was a, you know, quitting the authoritarian himself, um, but my grandma was like

very, very physically abusive, Tim, like, and would throw him against the wall and,

you know, that type of stuff, um, she'd like, of course, like when she was around other

people, she was great.

They go to visit grandparents, his grandparents and everything would be great.

The moment they, like, leave the driveway, she'd start, like, hitting them and stuff in

the car as they'd, like, pull away, like, just like immediately switches back to craze

it.

I don't know, maybe see it crazy, but just violent, um, the moment she got away, uh, and

so she'd tell them like, of course, she was, uh, she wish she was never born and stuff

like that.

Sorry.

You wish.

I think she wished she was never born.

Yeah.

Okay.

So murderous in that way.

Okay.

Yes.

And, like, that kicked out of the house when he was like 16, I want to say, right?

Roughly.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

So, uh, do you know much about how your parents met?

Um, I actually don't particularly know.

I want to say it's probably at a bar.

Yeah.

And then this, of course, that would be the case, right?

Yeah.

Um, but typically, I, I, what I do know is that I was a, um, uh, the reason I was, um,

reason they got married.

We'll put it that way.

So my mom was quite a bit older.

She was like, I mean, not seven years older, I want to say, um, again, I don't know what

drew them to each other.

I, these aren't questions that I ever really asked them too much of what, before I stopped

talking to them, but I, I don't know how they met in that kind of way, but I do know

that they, my mom got pregnant and then that's, um, the reason they got together and probably

the only reason.

And what do you know about your mom and her history?

Yeah.

She, that one is a little bit like, she was not always so forthcoming with me about her

past.

And the same way my dad was, uh, I do know she was one of, like, five total children.

Uh, I did find out just a few years back before I stopped talking to them that, apparently

my grandfather had been abusive to my grandmother, like, would physically hit her at times

and for those kids.

And it's interesting because I look back and like, out of those five, um, all my, my mom

and her four siblings, only two of them out of the five had kids end up having kids

at the wrong, which, you know, something I didn't think much of when I was growing up,

but it realizing there's obviously a lot more that went on that I just didn't know about

and probably still don't know about, but she grew up in that type of scenario.

She was, my mom also is not very intelligent person.

I think the family in general is intelligent.

My mom was definitely the one who did not inherit the intelligence on that side.

She is very much, uh, unfortunately, just not, not very bright.

So yeah, I, it's hard for me to say much more about her past though.

I don't know too much.

I don't know that she was physically abused herself, but I, I don't, do know if she witnessed

violence and any substance abuse in your histories?

No, not for me.

Okay, so yeah, neither your grand, neither of your grandparents had substance abuse issues.

Oh, um, neither my, uh, I don't know about my grandparents and as far as substance abuse.

I have never seen that.

Um, I've never seen any example of them, but using substances.

Okay.

All right.

And what was financial stability like in your family growing up?

Uh, predictably, pretty terrible.

Uh, one of those kind of weird situations out.

So I was an only child on, so the only one in the house, uh, my dad can never hold a job down.

Um, like he was confident in it to a certain sense, but he was the one who always quit jobs

because he was so discontent everywhere and hated.

He always, it was always just a problem with the people around him.

It was always like dealing with others and stuff like that.

He just didn't cooperate well.

The job they held the longest were ones where he was like an independent contractor

working by himself most of the day.

Um, there was a wait a few times they did.

Well, he also had this large ambition.

Well, I don't know how large it really was, but he certainly,

his stated ambition was to own a restaurant, be a chef in that kind of way.

We tried that and it sailed numerous times throughout my childhood.

Uh, and it, it was very disruptive.

We, there was times where we're doing a little bit better financially, but overall,

I mean, I moved to a lot of different houses.

Um, trailer was different places as I was growing up.

And honestly, we both the time we probably had enough money to get by, but of course,

my parents, just, my dad, I particularly loved to spend his money on stupid stuff.

So like, I'd have more material things in some of my friends and stuff growing up

at times who were clearly much more stable and doing a lot better, but I happened to have

like the latest game console or I used, you know, we had a new TV and stuff like that.

And it was very like confusing as a kid, like, to be able to say, like, well,

we don't have money and then we were, my parents are always openly complaining about that

and worrying about that in front of me constantly.

I was always, always, always hearing about it.

I could, I never didn't hear it.

So it was, I had to internalize that like fear myself all the time.

And have you puzzled out why they were like that?

In terms of money.

Yeah, I mean, to an extent, I mean, I think my dad was just had a big gaping hole,

like it ended up, and so he was trying to fill that by always shining new objects, things like that.

I think that was to an extent what it was.

Certainly, I mean, he had just no like financial awareness at all,

didn't understand anything about investing or there was never even a conversation that

ever came up. I respectfully disagree.

Obviously, I could be wrong, but I would disagree because, I mean,

most people have a gaping hole that doesn't mean you have to fill it with useless purchases.

You can fill it with wisdom, with love, with God, with whatever, right?

So, and as far as financial acumen go, just don't buy stupid shit.

I mean, I'm not saying he's got to be like Warren Buffett or anything like that,

but just don't buy stupid stuff that you don't need.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

I mean, there's not any excuse for it.

Well, no, no, I'm sorry.

And I apologize because I'm not being clear.

I'm not saying this in excuse, but what I would argue is that

your father, one of the things that's true about alcoholics,

is they can't handle frustration.

They can't handle negative emotions.

That's partly why they drink.

As you say, the demons, right, keeps the demons.

But Bay keeps the demons away.

So, I would argue that your father was a hedonist.

A hedonist is someone who puts immediate pleasure far ahead of long-term happiness.

I mean, you know, drug addicts, obviously, the higher if the heroin is,

is worth the teeth later, right, giving up the teeth later.

So, I would argue that your father is a hedonist.

All addicts are hedonists, fundamentally, because the addiction is

something that you like that's bad for you, and the only reason that you would do something

that you like that is, in fact, bad for you is out of hedonism.

And a hedonist can't handle negative emotions.

They get overwhelming.

And so, they run from propping up,

brief happiness to propping up, brief happiness,

and asking them to stop and deal with negative emotions is like asking someone

who's got a long track across a desert to just stand there in the middle of the sand dunes

and die rather than get to the next oasis, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And then, of course, the cycle is that you drink, sorry, not you, say Bob, right?

So, Bob drinks to escape the pain of his childhood.

And then, because Bob is drinking to escape, the pain of his childhood, Bob behaves terribly towards

other people in the present, notably his wife and his children.

And then, Bob can't deal with the pain of his childhood because he's become what he hates,

right? He's mad at his parents for his bad childhood, but now he's a bad parent.

So, he can't experience healthy anger towards his parents because he's become a bad parent,

or bad husband, or whatever it is.

It's like the thief can't get outraged if someone steals from him.

I mean, he can, but it's all kind of foolish and he can't have sort of clean healthy anger.

So, then, instead of dealing with the negative feelings from a bad childhood,

as the addict continues on his life journey, he ends up dealing with the negative feelings

of his own bad behavior. So, because he drinks to escape negative feelings, but every time he drinks,

he creates more negative feelings because he's behaving badly towards others.

It's a never-ending cycle, or at least it's very hard to break. And the longer it goes on,

of course, the more impossible it is to break because there's so much accumulated bad behavior

that, in a sense, you're drinking to avoid just throwing yourself off a bridge, because if you

kind of go into that silent room of your own conscience and stare yourself in the mirror,

what stays back is so grotesque that life barely seems worthwhile, I think.

So, the hedonism is to say no to yourself with regards to foolish purchases, to say no to yourself

is self-discipline. Do I really need this?

Am I, you know, what's my life if I don't have it and what's the cost of buying it?

Because whenever you buy something, you have to, you buy it, you use it, you've got to store it,

put it in a box somewhere, clean it, tidy it, maintain it, like that kind of stuff, right?

I, every now and then, I'm like, oh, I should get a snow blower,

you know, because there's snow, it's a candidate, right? So, I've got to shovel.

And then I say, well, you know, A, it's just exercise, it's nothing wrong with that,

to shovel, and B, okay, I'll get to snow blower, then I have to get choose one, I've got to go buy it.

And then I have to maintain it and fuel it up, and like, you know what I mean? Like it's just more

stuff to have and everything that you have takes time, space, energy, money, mindset,

mind space, and all that kind of stuff. So, with your father, I would argue that, and again,

you know, I'm infinitely better than I do, so correct me if this is a stray. But with your father,

I would say he wanted something, and because he's a hedonist, he just goes and buys it,

because he can't handle the negative emotions of not buying it, because he wants it in the same

way he wants a drink, and he can't handle the negative emotions of not having the drink. So,

I would argue that the foolish spending and the alcoholism is all not being able to handle

negative emotions, as is the quitting every time he has a conflict with his boss, right? Can't

handle the negative emotions? I'm out, right? Yeah, that makes absolute perfect sense. Let's say,

calling him a hedonist is the best label I've actually seen for him. And it acts completely

the cycle part of it, because he would get into these moments and these places of where he would

have all this deep shame that he would, he was clearly dealing with these cycles of shame all

the time. And occasionally, that would bubble up to me where he would express some amount of shame

for some behavior that he had. And I get this glimpse of hope that, oh, maybe he gets it and

he understands and it'll get better. And then, of course, it just never would. So, yeah,

it definitely tracks. And I'd note, I don't just get the label at all. And, of course, most people

who have these kinds of addictions, and the addiction can be to non-physical substances like vanity

or status or things like that. But most people who have these addictions, you know, I'm sure your

father woke up several times a week with like, oh, man, I feel like crap. I just stop drinking, you

know, and they see these sort of idle, I'll quit things maybe pass through his mind. I've talked to

people, and this is long before I did a show, but yeah, I've talked to people in my life who've done

wrong to others. And, you know, what they've generally said is, you know, every morning, I'd wake

up and say, oh, I'm going to be nicer. I'm going to be better. And then it just wouldn't happen.

And, you know, this is sort of frustration that things didn't kind of happen, you know, because

there's no traction. That's why I was asking at the beginning about willpower. There's no traction

to will something and to make it happen is not common. I think it's kind of foundational

to our biology, but it's not common in our society, particularly for people with dysfunctional

parents. And, of course, even if you have functional parents, you're still going to crappy

schools where you have no say or control or anything like that. So I think that your willpower

would be blunted by your inability to control anything. And as parents, one of the things that

we need to develop in our children is our children's willpower, but willpower only grows

when it's able to achieve some goal. I mean, to continue the winter analogy, right? I mean,

you can spin your wheels if you're stuck in snow and you won't go anywhere because your tires

aren't gaining any traction on the asphalt or the tarmac. And so that's what I'm trying to

understand is your willpower and how you were able to affect change as a kid. If you had a preference

or a desire or a want, would you be able to affect it? Would you be able to make things happen?

Yeah. And I would say largely no. Most of the time I wasn't to case in again, I would

typically, after a certain point, largely gave up on trying to do that, at least in any sort of

direct way. I think most of the time my wants or needs were just seen as a sort of disruption

to whatever he was dealing with or whatever he wanted at the time. Can you remember a time,

it could have been quite early, of course, but can you remember a time when you wanted to achieve

something, but were not able to afford to ignore or attack or mocked or something like that?

That's difficult to recall at the top I had. I don't know. I can't think of a specific example

right now. I can keep trying, but I don't really recall striving towards too much. I can't

think of a great example of something that I really tried to do.

One other aspect of procrastination is perceived hypocrisy on the part of those giving us rules.

So when you were a kid, did you have lists of chores or whether expectations of things that you

had to do when you were home? Yeah, typically there was certain things I was expected to do. It was

never super structured. It was usually like, is this whatever random things. It wasn't like a

routine of it every week or every month typically. I don't recall that it ever really be. I

feel like I was typically pretty good about doing the things I was asked to as a kid, but that's

because essentially if I didn't like that I was too scared of what would happen if I didn't

often times. And what would happen if you didn't? Just my dad having a tantrum of some time

yelling at me and just like getting really upset. Typically yelling at me or something like that

and then him being in a really bad mood over it. And what sort of things would she get mad about

if you didn't do them? He'd say things like, oh, like I'm just lazy or that I

so I guess this is maybe like a side tangent, but I feel like it's worth noting. One thing

that he would, he was the type that would always, if he was working on something and he was busy,

like I had to be doing something when he was. He hated if somebody else was relaxing

when he was busy doing something. It was just like if he was on his feet then like I'd better be

at my feet. Otherwise I would get scolded and get called lazy or be called like whatever, like

I don't know if he, I can't really recall if he threw on the word like workplace or something.

I don't know that he went that far, but he was certainly like to just get very grumpy and start

scowling and things like that if I wasn't doing something when he was.

Okay, I think you missed the question, which is fine. I mean, to get these emotional topics,

what sort of activities would you be asked to do and then be afraid to not do?

Moin the lawn, cleaning the house in certain ways, maybe doing the dishes.

I would say fairly like typical pipes of tasks, but the household stuff.

Okay, and at what age were you expected to start contributing in this kind of way?

Probably something like seven or eight years old.

And additionally, I had mentioned that like my dad tried running multiple restaurants at

different times throughout my childhood and I was always like heavily involved in those things.

So he would, I was the free labor off of times for whether it was when I was really young,

I would help wash dishes. By the time I was one restaurant we had when I was 10 years old,

I, that's when I started like cooking with him and I was there to like help him when he

otherwise really didn't have anybody else that he needed help didn't have it otherwise couldn't

afford it. I was always like in the kitchen helping him. And so that that was always something and he

was very like he did very volatile when doing that highly stressed out and would yell a lot and

get very, that was the very volatile working with him in that way. Okay. So when did you see,

if you did, your parents exercise at verbal South discipline? I can't recall that happening.

That was very, that was very quick.

And that's just, yeah, I mean, that's the first thought I could work in restaurants. I'm sure when

he didn't want to. I mean, that must be right. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, despite his like

drinking, he still like was, he'd go to work. So that's something. He also like, I will say,

my dad had a, when it came to like cooking, which was his thing, he was, he wasn't very good at

just cooking. And he had a very like he took pride in like what he delivered. He derived a lot of

his, I think self worked out of his ability to cook. And his, so that there was, that was something

from him that he was very diligent about. Well, but diligence doing something you enjoy is not

self-discipline. Yeah, that's true. Did your father give you the impression, he said,

leading the witness? Did your father give you the impression that there were lots of things in

life he had to do that were imposed upon him? I mean, I think just in general, he didn't want to

typically, if he wasn't cooking at the time, he didn't want, certainly didn't want to go to work.

I don't know that he, I don't know, like, I'm trying to think if he like expressed that in terms

of his relationship with me. I mean, I guess he really was quite, and I don't know if that's where

you're trying to lead that because he did, certainly by the time I was like seven, eight years old,

like he did not take time to really be much of a parent to me at all. It's definitely a lot of

neglect there. And so I don't think that he certainly wasn't disciplined in the sense of like

fatherly duties. Sorry, if I kind of went away from the question there, but again, just thought

that occurred to me from that. Okay, and did you want to stay home? No, she worked as well. Okay,

and when you were little, how have you taken care of if your parents were working?

So I think that there was some amount of like, baby sitting when I was younger. I was, I think I

was in the, actually, it's weird that I don't know the full answer to this question. I think I did

some amount of daycare by dead. At one point the one I was like three, when I was like three or

four, he was running a business. And so he actually kept me with him a lot during the day.

But otherwise, like, I mean, by time I was like six or seven years old, my parents would

like lead me at home alone, like when they'd be working. And that started very early. I'd just

be at home alone during the day if I wasn't at school. It's interesting that you get this kind

of vocal fry. Sometimes when you try, I'm trying to figure out the pattern of the vocal fry when

you're talking about your parents. But and did you see a mother exercise any self-disciplined

that you recall? She was definitely very disciplined in just her ability to like, she did very,

she had the opposite problem with my dad when it came to work. Like she just, I guess it wasn't

a problem, but she just like she did her like factory jobs or whatever they were. And she just

day and day out there every day. She was very consistent and and kind of just going through

whatever she had. She was a very hard worker. I will like get her credit for that. Like she was

always like, when it came to her actual work, like she was very consistent and did very dull

monotonous jobs, but like she was always there. So yeah, she didn't have the sort of flash of

creative fire that your father had with cooking. She was just moving stuff as a job, right?

Yes. Okay. And in their personal life, did you see your parents exercise any self-disciplined

that you remember? That particularly, I mean, they're not healthy people. They don't eat well,

they don't exercise. It was never anything that was ever, I don't remember. It's ever exercising

or talking about exercising. Well, it's tough if you eat the drunk or hungover. It's pretty tough

to get in a game of tennis. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, there was definitely like this general

health stuff. They were not disciplined. No, I don't know whether I could think of anything

off the top of my head that they were particularly otherwise disciplined in. Okay.

So in viewing your parents, giving you orders, right? Because I mean, when your parents say we want

you to mow the lawn or wash the dishes or whatever it is, right? Then they're giving you orders

and they're saying you should do something that you don't want to do. It's important for you to

do something that you don't want to do. And of course, the best way to get your children to do

things that they don't want to do is to model doing things that you don't want to do.

You know, there've been times where, you know, I've been really tired or I've had a headache and,

you know, I'd say to my daughter, yeah, I have to have to go do a show. And I don't want to right

now. I'm sure it'll be fine when I get into it. But boy, I give some part of my kidney to not

do a show. It's not common, but it does happen. But also, I wouldn't be like, oh, I can't believe

I have to go do a show or crumble, crumble, crumble, then be sort of a bad mood for the rest of the

night or something. But you're like, yeah, just have to, you know, or she has seen me exercise

consistently, sort of even when I don't particularly feel like it. I don't enjoy exercise. I mean,

I like, you know, sports or whatever, but if I'm just doing weights, it's not like, hey, this is great.

I do this, even if it was bad for me. It's not particularly fun, but it is something that I

need to do. And I certainly don't want to get old and creaky and and frail, like that's especially

the bone stuff. I mean, that's brutal. So I suppose, you know, if I asked my daughter to do something,

she'll usually do it. And I think that's because both her mother and I have modeled, you know,

just, yeah, stuff you have to do. And you don't want to do it. But it's worth while doing it,

right? That kind of stuff. I mean, taxes, you know, the kind of stuff that's not too much fun,

but you have to do it. So, and that's sort of why I'm asking about your parents. Because if your

parents don't have self-discipline, then how are you supposed to have self-discipline? I mean,

it's a child. And the worst is when your parents don't have self-discipline and are hedonists,

and then get strangely annoyed when you copy their behavior. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Because my mother was a bit of a hedonist, and she had an inability to handle negative emotions.

And so when she would say to me, you know, oh, she was hitting me. Why are you getting so angry?

Sometimes it's like, hello, Mr. Ragequeen, right? So there is something that's very alienating

and angering and frustrating when people who don't follow rules impose those rules

upon you, right? You know, this sort of old meme about, you know, the government can literally

lose track of $100 billion, but you know, if you send someone $601, they'll be like, all over you,

right? And so when you have people who are hedonists who then say to you, well, you should sacrifice

your short-term happiness for the sake of long-term good. It is important to mo the lawn. And yeah,

I mean, that's helpful. It's good to mo the lawn. But they're saying you don't want to

mo the lawn, but you should mo the lawn because it's important to do things that you don't want to do.

Now, I'm not going to quit drinking though, and I'm not going to go exercise, and I'm not going

to eat well, and I'm not going to control my temper. Like, I'm just going to let it all hang out,

but you should hold it all in. I can't control myself, but I sure as heck can control you, kid,

that is really enriching, isn't it? Yeah, it certainly was as a child. I felt that.

And you've been listening to me for 10 years. What do you think might be missing from your side of

the conversation here? What is missing from my side? Are you saying that maybe emotional

engagement on this or trying to guess what you're trying to lead me toward here?

Well, I asked your age in part to find out how distant you are from your childhood, and your

childhood was 14 years ago. Right? Now, if you're 75 or whatever, I would say, in my 50s,

I've been able to look at my childhood with much less emotion. I was clearing out some stuff

in the basement over the last day or two, and came across a lot of old childhood photos, and I can

look at them, and it's half century ago now, right? But yours is closer, and I still feel

some things about it. And that's what I'm curious about is the absence of any kind. I can't

really tell what's going on. Yeah, that's a good call out. I think I'm saying you're

failing to deliver something that I ordered. That's not a criticism. I'm just surprised a little

because, of course, I'm not a philosopher who says you should master your emotions, and you should

be distant from your emotions, and do not let your emotions control you. I'm a big fan of the

passions, and I guess I'm curious about your emotional experience of this. Compa.

Yeah, I mean, I was not really feeling anything until you mentioned that just now. I certainly felt

something just sort of acknowledging that, and having you point that out, I felt something about

that, and I definitely, when I think of my parents in general, at this point, I feel just such

like a deep apathy. Even I talked to my wife about it sometimes. When I think about my parents,

and I think about my child, I just feel nothing. I can't think of the last time I'm really

emotionally engaged with that, but it's not even that I feel like at least that I'm consciously

avoiding it. I just, I don't know. I have a hard time tapping into the feelings on it. I think

even one time I did go to therapy for a brief amount of time. This is probably like six years ago,

and had somebody try to do EMDR with me, and things like that, and focusing on the memories,

and sort of get into feeling those things. I found it possible to at least that therapist

was not able to help me get to that place of where I was really deep into the emotions. I was

thinking about the memories and trying to focus on them and immerse myself in that, and I'd

have such a hard time to actually really put myself in that situation and deal something from it,

if that makes sense. It does, and you know what the biggest predictor of non-emotionality

regarding childhood is. I did not. So the degree of emotional absence is directly correlated,

in my view, to the degree of sadism that was experienced. So if you had parents or others

authority figures in your childhood who used your emotions against you, then you will dissociate

from your emotions because rather than being a source of richness and wisdom and guidance,

they are a source of external torture. Right. So if that's true, if it is true, how did your

parents deal with your vulnerability? I mean, certainly not well. I mean, I just didn't. I

again, I don't know where exactly what age it started at for me, but the guide just didn't

tell them anything. They knew nothing about me. But why? I'm not disagreeing with that, but why

wouldn't you tell them anything about you? Right. It's hard for me to think of a specific memory

or exactly why. It's one of those things where I feel like it's just as far back because I remember,

I just didn't do it. Now, I will just a couple of examples of maybe some of what you're referring to

though is like I remember, I mean, there was a time like we had our dog die when I was like really

little and my dad got really angry with me because I was instead of helping him bury the dog, I was

watching cartoons that morning. And I like, he told me I didn't care about the dog.

And so he cares about the dog. So then maybe. Okay. And will you close up the dog?

Yeah. I mean, it was, I had the dog around for like three years and I did like the dog a lot,

yeah. I have an urge to record the dog's name for posterity because otherwise it's going to be

lost at the sense of time. Name of dog, please. Shiba? Shiba. Okay. Good. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, for some

reason, I just wanted to rescue the dog's name because you know, when when you're dead and gone,

the Shiba's name will never be known. But now it's known forever. Okay. Well, that irony,

unfortunately, is that like the reason she died, she was German shepherd, the reason she died is

because we were having a bonfire outside at night. And of course, my dad had let the dog off the leash

and let her be out around when he shouldn't have as she wandered off and got back at her car.

Right. And that type of negligence on his part is something that was persistent, consistent

throughout my childhood. Oh, I mean, that's the chaos of addiction. It's just that like crazy bad

random stuff just keeps happening. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. And so that's very interesting.

So you were sitting out the funeral in protest because you weren't allowed to express anger towards

your father. Yeah, I guess I never thought, you know, I don't ever recollect like at that time,

if I felt like anger, I probably did. I don't recall specifically like it would be angry.

If you're close to the dog and your father is being irresponsible with the dog and the dog goes

and gets killed, then you would be angry with your father. Yes. And to take that further,

like there was other examples like where we had my dad always had dogs because it was always like

he was able to, he always said they couldn't judge him, which is that's pretty honest. Yeah.

And so like we always had honestly too many dogs. And that's also avoidance of any silence or

capacity for self-reflection because there's always a dark and need something needs to be

walk, yapping, growling, defecating. And there's always a problem. There's always so it's just

part of the general people who uncomfortable themselves always need external distractions. And before

social media, it was dogs. Anyway, so we go ahead. Yeah. My dad had no friends or anything,

right? So he always say like the dogs are such a good judge of character and stuff like that.

So like this sort of like, oh, like the dogs love me. So like they, you know, that must mean I'm

actually good or something. I don't know. Just weird logic like that. But hey, there was times

where like when I was a teenager and he would like things like that would happen where the dog,

he'd let the dog out and the dog would run away and then come back like a couple hours later.

And I remember one time I got really really mad at him and I called him out on it and he just blew

up like he was so like pissed off at me over it that I would throw back in his face. So like yeah,

it's certainly there was times as I was alive to remember being very angry with him for his,

his negligence at various. No, but he just overrode you. Here, I am just interrupting you talking

about your dad over writing you sorry, but he just overrode you. So you yelled at him or you got

mad at him and he just got escalated, didn't he? Yeah. And I actually, if I remember,

I think it was that occasion that I'm thinking of that I actually like he got in my face.

He was like screaming in my face and I was 17 and I punched him in the face and gave him a black eye.

And then at the time I then I school girlfriend I dropped her house to like get away like I'm

you really just got in the car and left. Right. Right. I got no problem with that.

Even like told me later he was actually like it was this weird thing of where he told me he was like

like proud as me for for doing I like never knew how to like interpret that. But it was yeah,

it was a weird situation. Right. Right. Okay. So vulnerability.

Vulnerability. So vulnerability is obviously just you're telling people hey is how you can hurt me

if you want. Right. So if I say to someone I don't like X or or you know they I don't know if

they still have them. They you oh I still remember this body memory. They used to be these things

called dootangs and they were like folders you'd put your three ring papers in in junior high

school or high school right after you sniffed the photos dance. And these dootangs used to have

these little metal strips that you push up through the holes then fold them down to keep the

three ring binder paper in place. This is like Sumerian ancient Sumerian technology. And if I were

to take my nail and rub it against the end the edge of those metal strips it would make my whole

body shiver like usually people have a little thing that there's just something right then this

is in 1984 like room 101 is the worst thing in the world right for some people as fighters for

some people it's rats or whatever right. And if you tell people about these things then you are

you're telling them here's things that really bother me here's things that are very negative to be.

And it's a trust thing right. And so if you if you're going to the dentist and the dentist is

doing some work and it hurts you you say hey this hurts and then the dentist will either inject more

novocaine or try something else or whatever right but they'll try to adjust what they're doing to

minimize the pain. But if you're being tortured and you say hey that really hurts what does the torture

do. The torture like will hurt you back. No if the torture is torturing you and you say oh it really

hurts. Oh when you do that what does the torture do just more of that. Oh yeah they'll do more yeah

right of course. And so vulnerability is simply a trust action where you say to people this is how

you could really hurt me. And of course when people love you or care for you or even the dentist

just doesn't want to get sued or wants you to come back then they will avoid doing the things that hurt

you right. Right. And if people are sadists what do they do with the knowledge of what hurts you.

They use it against you. That's right. You have now given them power over you and that's

generally what I mean when I say that the degree of emotional dissociation is directly proportional

to the degree of sadism from those in authority particularly when you're a child. I will leave

I will neither give you positive nor negative emotions because positive emotions can also be used

to control you. So if you say I really like it when this happens then people should do whatever

this is you know for the purposes of making you happy but they can of course also do this as a form

of a bribery. So when I was a kid if you had some candy a whole bunch of swarthy layabouts

well not swarthy it was pretty white but you know a whole bunch of sketchy layabouts would come over

and they would want your candy and they would say hey I'll be your best friend now I already had

best friends I didn't really need more best friends and what they did was they said oh well children

want best friends and if you give me candy I'll be your best friend and so they're trying to

provide something positive in order to get what they want for you which is the candy. So it's not

always cruelty sometimes it's the offer of a positive or the delivery of a positive so a very

attractive woman will go out with a guy and maybe she has no intention of dating him or sleeping

with him or anything like that but she got with the guy and the guy is paying it to some degree for

I don't know masturbation fantasies or high status or you know envy from other guys like oh whatever

it is right so she's delivering a positive in return for dinner or gifts or a night out or whatever

is going on so that's why you can't show what makes you happy and you can't show what makes you

sad because cruel people will simply use those as buttons like you use a vending machine

hammer the buttons until you get what you want and so you have to disconnect yourself

from your emotions because they're always going to be deployed against you.

I mean statistically white people are the least racist people on earth and racism is perceived

or viewed with a particular horror and so that word is used often to bully and control people

who are against racism rather than because racism is innately bad because of course if racism was

innately bad then let's take the argument that racism is innately bad then you would simply

look at the studies and figure out which race was the most racist which race perceived itself

as the most superior and put down other races and that would not be whites you would focus on other

people but it's not oh white people are sensitive to charges of racism so we'll use it to control them

okay so that is the general flow of society so if you have great distance from your emotions

I assume could be wrong obviously but I would assume it's because your emotions were used

to control you that if you said this makes me unhappy it would get pushed like oh I got a really

bad bruise here and then the cruel person what do they do well they they push that bruise or

I have a really great need for something right I have a really great need for you know maybe some

calm and peace and I have a really great need as all children do for affection like oh well I'm

going to withhold affection and I'm not going to give you peace and calm and and so on and sometimes

it's used in in bribery so if your parents want to make you happy so that you'll view them better

not because they care about your happiness because if you cared about your happiness they wouldn't

drink they wouldn't scream and do these terrible things but they want to keep you bonded to them

I was sort of struck and maybe your father played them too but I was struck when you said that in

the trailer park you had the latest video game consoles right yeah and that's to bribe you into

having a positive experience as a result of your parents and so that non-emotion the absence of

emotion the dissociation from emotion is because it's not safe to feel because feelings both

positive and negative are used to control you if that makes sense yeah I mean that makes perfect

sense that I kind of blocked as you were going along there a couple things like I think it's

interesting because it's exactly what my wife has said to me at various times of like she as

expressed that she is our time understanding like what makes me happy or like that certainly

that emotional vulnerability in terms of like she just has our time telling if I'm actually like

something or if I don't like something because it just like all comes off like very neutral and I

know like maybe say like I like this or whatever but it just she doesn't like feel that or doesn't

like it doesn't come day more overtly I guess like it's definitely something that she is numerous

points pointed out as something that is concerning I guess well and you in the tech fields right

yes so in the tech field your willpower gets manifested right if you want to do a particular thing

with the computer you tell the computer what to do and the computer will do it so your willpower

gets manifested and also with computers unlike with people with computers at least prior to AI maybe

your emotions would never be used against you computers are not manipulative you're in complete

control so your willpower has traction and your emotions will never be used against you yeah so it's

a safe space but it doesn't help you develop emotional connection now one question I have I have a

lot of questions but the one I'll focus on next if it's all right with you is in general when we feel

that we are in a safer environment our emotions will tend to come out and you said that you de-food

how long ago um about three and almost four years ago I was four years ago and that stuck like

they've stayed distant yeah so I they've tried to message me a few times um but I pretty much burned

that bridge because I had during that to have a couple different grandparents I've died during

that time and I basically just did not engage um through that time because I just didn't want to

go there sorry why you you didn't like you decided to not see them but you didn't block them

uh I I had now I just did not at first I had I did not uh walk them immediately well but I mean

maybe not immediately but if they contact you against your wishes don't you I mean wouldn't a

sensible thing be to block them yeah I certainly showed up front um they also like tried to go

like contact me through my wife at first and she had she then blocked them too um I've I've not heard

from them and um not directly in like two years at least okay and so that's created a bit more

of a safe space so if your emotions are still distant it must mean I think that there's still a

sense of concern or um aggression or something negative it may be mild of course uh in the environment

and I'm trying to figure out what that might be yeah um I don't uh I I mean I know you're getting

at hang on hang on what do you mean what am I getting at I don't know what it is I'm just

what am I what do you think I'm getting at because that that's you not or that's you plodule

and end result of the conversation like what trap is deaf laying or something like that yeah of course um

uh I mean I I would obviously the most direct environment would be like my my family my

my wife um particularly I don't have much outside of that in terms of like

relationship I don't I wouldn't say I just don't talk to a whole lot of other people in general

um at this point in my life like friends I did have I don't really engage with anymore

um from my past so yeah I mean that would be my direct environment would be my

home with and with my wife so that that's what I was employing okay uh and you did say earlier

that your wife would get annoyed at you about chores like you said the things that you have to do

that was hanging something that was going to be a half hour or something like that yeah yeah

that would definitely happen I think we've definitely had our um like just we have a

I'd say overall a good relationship just there's this things that we've we've both

have had similar pasts and just very different ways but bad pasts and we're both like very actively

working on she's actually called in to you before through a private calling um I'm when I

had advised her to and so she had she's been dealing with stuff on her side as working through

things actively uh but I'd say one of the things that like where we've had some conflict between each

other in the past is that her way of um when she gets uh when we have conflict in any sort of way

and usually just very minor upfront or anything like that she has in the past and it's gotten better

but it's not fully better yet the she kind of shuts down herself when if I upset her in any way um

that has been something we've had in the past where she it was sort of like an emotional withdrawal

and we've talked through that a lot and I've actually expressed to her in the past like how

difficult that is for me to feel like if if I say something that you know without even intending

or with either like I know sometimes it's with best interest her best interest in mind but maybe I

just do something that upsets her in a certain way like that she might just completely emotionally

disengage from me for maybe even a couple days um and that was some so this is an example maybe

avoid where we've had conflict before um you're a very intellectual fellow

well no I mean it's it's you're sort of giving me a very abstract unemotional explanation of

various things but okay so it's avoidance and procrastination those are the two things to

wrestle with right today yeah okay avoidance is a bit of a tricky word because it just means

avoiding sure but but I you know I do I avoid Detroit that doesn't mean that anybody knows where

I am right so what are you avoiding what do you mean by avoidance yeah I guess yeah maybe

that's just sort of more just an extension of the procrastination uh maybe that should just be one

I should just said procrastination in general I think it's just because the procrastination I guess

is avoiding things um uh I like avoidance would be uh I mean one thing is I when it comes to like

emotional conversations where I feel like emotionally charged up like where there's maybe

something difficult that I need to talk about or want to talk about it if I don't talk about it

like right there when I'm sealing it at its peak like then from there I'd I'll likely at least

in the past would never likely talk about it like once that fades like I'm just total avoidance

mode like I'm not gonna like I'll know it would be in the back of my head but I like a

void going there because like I'm afraid to then engage on that like that thing again

you're afraid to then engage on that thing again okay

I'm not sure I'm enlightened again it's already abstract and you never provide me any examples

uh because I'm an empiricist right you would you would know that right so it's usually this is

why I asked I've asked a number of times can you provide examples and it's it's tough for you to do

that so when you say like if there's an emotionally charged topic if I don't talk about it right

then I tend to avoid it later blah blah blah blah blah that's it's like the credits of a movie

that's not the movie if that makes sense yeah you're describing things in a sort of abstract

unemotional intellectual manner but you're talking about emotional topics right um let me see I

I could probably pull something up from a recent conversation with my wife I get um like

the first thing I'll just say is like an example from a not a full example but like at a high

level like when I was a kid I dad if I would be really upset with him in the middle of something

when he was like blowing up and stuff but I'd like hold my time I'd be like I just need to wait

till the morning when he's sober and I'll talk to him about it and I'd be like compel I'd be like

tell myself I'm gonna talk about it tomorrow I'm gonna confront him I'm going to do this

the next morning comes like all those feelings with like drain from me fine then I just like

that's good saved it saved me I understand I mean you want to talk with a drunk

uh who's who's got a hangover about emotional improvement

I mean seriously I mean look look at the practicality of that did it ever work

um I mean certainly not like hey he would like maybe say that he was going to try to do better

there was a few times where people say I hope I yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I did shouldn't have

done that but there's no commitment to change there's no focus there's no okay I get loved

bombed I would get loved bombs like oh like I just care about you so much and blah blah blah and

then it would just not you know nothing I it would like get this sense of like oh we came to this

like conclusion that yeah we're gonna things are gonna get better combined and it would just

yeah nothing would change but in retrospect yeah like I that was probably I would be

frustrated with myself afterwards we're not confronting but then like when I think about it

it's like that was the right thing to not confront um that that was that was a protection mechanism

yeah because you said avoidance like if I if I have a tree that is blocking something

I need to remove the tree and I say you know uh damn it I really I'm really avoiding

the conversation with the tree to ask it to leave that's a problem what would you say to me

well back away slowly yeah yeah yeah yeah did like don't bother to do that or you should um yeah

the problem is not with the tree the problem is think that you can talk the tree into moving

right exactly and after I'm sure hundreds or thousands of hours of conversation with your parents

over the years produce exactly what it nothing yeah you're trying to talk a tree and to pick

it up its roots and moving on yeah yeah and I I tried to like you know after I started listening to you

I tried to have some conversations with them and then it was just didn't go anywhere I was suddenly

whole year than now and it was just like the proposition of like therapy or like my you know

asking my dad to stop drinking of course for me to like my dad got very very angry like when I

suggested that he needed to stop like extremely which makes sense I get it like I understand

but what was his tail about his anger what did he say um like his when you say the tail about his

anger like is is reason for not wanting to drink or you I just drink socially it's not a big deal

why would you want to be such a killjoy yeah like if you become a fundamentalist like like what he

had to have a story about how the I mean people don't get angry without a story they have to have

some justification yeah uh yeah I mean he would say he'd always try to argue that it wasn't that bad

he was the type that would be like he'd be drunk slurring his words and he didn't insist he

wasn't drunk and if you try to tell me was drunk he would be like he'd get pissed off about that

like that kind of thing well this is what addicts do like they you say you have a problem they say

I'm not addicted I don't have a problem I could quit anytime and then you say well then quit

yeah right I mean because if they say I can't quit then clearly they have an addiction

if they say it's not a big deal I can't quit then just quit yeah it saves you money saves you

health you don't wake up in headaches you know I mean there's there's no net there's no downside

to quitting alcohol so if you saw if you're not addicted that just quit right so this always

is this back and forth but sorry go ahead no sorry I just like I think I think there was the time

when I was at a dollar I think I was probably like 24 at the time um I had gone to a sporting event

with him and we had on a long drive back and I wasn't living with him or anything at the time so

I was rarely like confined with him for very long and I've ever just you come back and I

I would have been really angry because he was just bled during the whole night and I was just

over it just completely over it and I confronted him in the car about his drinking when he was

drunk a terrible idea um a long drive and I told him he had to stop all the stuff and it just like

he ended up taking it as far as you know basically telling me that if he didn't drink he'd kill

himself uh and that that was like what you yeah that he he needed it and which is contradictory

what he'd always tell me that he didn't need it and that he just chose to um well and that's true

I would imagine that's true because as I said earlier like if you treat people like shit

and how old were you when you had this conversation with him probably like 24

yeah so if he's been a shitty father for almost a quarter century and he comes face to face with that

I mean it's funny you know I mean most everyone's wasted time from time to time in their lives

right then I sort of look back and and I don't really play video games anymore except maybe

socially um or with my daughter because I'm like you know I've spent some time on video games

and I don't particularly regret it I mean I've also run a big show and written like I don't know

20 books or whatever so but but you know we always for time and every now and then we look back

and say oh you know I should play it some Skyrim or whatever it is right and I can't imagine though

looking back if you were 24 looking back on I don't know a couple of decades of drinking my

ass off and wasting all of that money and time and health and and not being a present father

and being a bad father and being a bad husband and being a bad employee and just mistreating myself

and others like that's oh I shouldn't play 200 hours of Skyrim or something like

general to me like that which is you know fairly innocuous and and so on so I can't imagine

peeling back that onion and looking at my life and saying I completely fucked up being a father

and a husband I fucked up my career I fucked up my health I've blown hundreds of thousands of

dollars on drinking and related expenses and it's cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars more

so I'm sick poor broke wasted my life I mean I don't even know how would you look at that

and and survive it away yeah no absolutely the what he was seeing in the mirror I can understand

was not a good image still looked back at absolutely yeah it's a terrible addiction is the worst

waste of your life that you could possibly have at least if you just go and live in the woods

and do nothing at least you're not harming others still kind of wasted life at least you're

not harming others but especially children you can't harm children and survive psychologically

yeah absolutely so I know I kind of pulled back from where we're talking in the present

with my wife so I think I should get back to that um I think in an example like there was so she

has like a friend that we it's an older friend of hers that she had before I met her and it's

somebody that I think is a crazy lefty um deal post retweeting posting resharing things on X that

are like just yeah terrible violent leftist garbage um but like yeah like my wife is

comfortable inviting this person into our home um even though we've like I've expressed

concern about that in the past um and it's like we whatever that is I've been trying to like

help like like my wife acknowledges like that she's concerning and my wife and I both you know

certainly politically like aligned overall um neither of us are COVID-vax and either type of stuff

um but it's like her friend doesn't know anything about who she actually is um and so my my

daughter's birthday's coming up and so we were uh this her friend of her this friend of hers

lives across the country and was going to come out here and I told my wife that we wanted to

especially after the um the why am I blinking right now after Charlie died uh like there was a lot

of stuff there we had talked him like this is like gross stuff like I don't feel comfortable having

this person around and I told her that and I thought we were on the same page and then all of a sudden

she kind of was like telling me recently that the she was like they were trying to figure out when

she was going to come out here um to come visit for the birthday party and I was just like I was

upset and I told her I'm like this like I thought last time we talked this was not something

like I thought we'd agree that like this was really concerning and like I that I express I don't

feel comfortable having this person in our house um and around her daughter uh this person's

very nice on the surface it's never been like confrontational at all with us in any sort of way

personally but like knowing just who this person is like in other settings like that to me is enough

I don't need to like just because she doesn't go to political stuff to talk about any of these things

in front of us like that doesn't make me feel better about it um but I tried to express my wife that

she like that I was frustrated by that and I just felt like I got at the time it felt like I

expressed her I'm like I'm trying to like I feel frustrated and upset by this and she kind of

shut off for me and kind of um like I was trying to emotionally connect with her and try to like

tell her like hey like I'm feeling frustrated by this like and like I got met with like from

friction and I think even some frustration from her at that point and it became kind of a larger

conflict between us that night because there's some other things that came up too but I just like

I had felt very frustrated in that situation and we'd like since like we you know after the fact

a couple like a couple days later we like really talked through it properly and I think we made a

came to a better conclusion with it and I was able to convey to her why I was frustrated and upset

at the time and I think she understood and you know she apologized for it but it was it was that

was an example of a conflict I guess um that we had had recently and how long if you know your

wife I've known her for six years and what was her perspective on your parent um it's an

interesting one she there was that actually was quite complicated when she first met my parent

she actually liked them quite a lot even though I was already like had been listening to you for a while

I was like I had kind of put off conversations that I needed to have with them um but I

I'm sorry this is this is too fast so sorry you met and no I'm I'm I wasn't clear so so you met

your wife um some event and how long between meeting your wife and her meeting your parents

maybe three months okay over those three months how much did she find out about your childhood

uh I mean I told her probably everything uh at least everything that seemed important to talk

about certainly so you told her about the dysfunction the emotional abuse the chaos the

drunkenness the screaming the all of this stuff right yeah and you know I obviously probably

wasn't very good at conveying the emotional you know we gave her the facts yeah but I gave her the facts

yes so why would she want to meet your parents you know it's a good question and I mean

frankly the same thing could be applied to me when I mean her she had a okay I'm not different

that I need to start fucking jumping all over the place okay just just I know just like a deep

breath kind of thing again I'm just trying to understand right yeah it's just focus on your wife

for the moment um you were severely abused and neglected alone from six or seven years of age right

at home your father was a rampant dangerous abusive alcoholic did you experience direct physical

violence from your parents uh not for maybe a couple different times but it was minor overall okay it

was mostly not screaming and that sort of dysfunction right okay yes are your parents the people

who've done you the most harm in this life yes okay so your future wife loves you and knows that

your parents are the people who've done you the greatest harm without as far as I can tell

of correct me of course if I'm wrong but without much compensatory good that's right so

it's unmingled with good things you know my father was a bastard but he taught me a great love

of nature and then he taught me French and like you know that there's not much compensatory

stuff for the awful stuff right and you say let's go meet my parents and she says

um I mean yeah I don't recall any sort of like her having any concern about that

okay and she meets your parents and she likes them knowing what they did to you

she did somewhat like them yes and I like certainly the thing that was appealing to her is that

my parents would love bombing and her upbringing was the opposite of that so it was she

was lured in by the sort of love bombing that my parents would do and how long till you met her

parents probably roughly the same time frame I probably actually met her her dad first her

parents were divorced um and I like definitely like went into that knowing that I like I had like

sort of the sense of my mind like I would want to lead her away from them like whenever I could

say you didn't like or you didn't like them I certainly upfront didn't claim to like them

or anything like that but what about after you met them um I was I think I was pulled in a little

bit by her dad thinking like with some sort of dumb hope that maybe we could like make him better

though it's just really stupid um I think because he was everything that my dad wasn't in the

sense that he was actually up for like had a good career professional and all these things and so

there was an allure there for me and so I kind of bought into her frame of that oh we can make

that better like um I'm sorry about the major complaints that your wife had about her parents

or I mean her dad was extremely authoritarian um very absent you just work a

whole like never home um and just kind of left her to her mom who the mom was a state home mom

but was just very like abusive very just just unpleasant personal around nobody liked her mom

um just very abusive uh mostly screaming at her I think that there's times she threw things at her

I believe uh that's definitely the case overall wasn't particularly physical um but just

thought it's a extreme like yelling and like just uh yeah like just great disdain towards her like

she did not there was barely any affection other than occasional like love bombing but it was very

rare and did your then girlfriend know that your parents had expressed the desire that you'd never

been born um I believe so yes wow oh I don't know I mean I didn't I don't necessarily know that I

my dad I don't think my so to be to sorry correction I don't think I ever heard that from my dad

my dad heard that from his grant from his mom I never actually heard okay sorry sorry so yeah

I got a little layered there my I obviously don't want to be unfair I'm just sorry about that okay

yeah okay and did your father drink around your girlfriend when she met him

yes and did he drink a lot um yeah I mean his typical amount which was a lot and he was

he she only met them like they're not a lot of times maybe like five six times um before like

the wedding and everything but uh it wasn't a lot of times he would like very it was very like

kumbaya would be like Christmas and it'd be like oh we're so happy to have you in the family and

it was all this kind of like fluffy like kind of stuff um that type of attitude and how did you

experience your girlfriend fiance liking your parents uh I mean it I I think it was confusing for

me at the time because I was still like thinking I I still at least still in my head at the time

felt like I somewhat like them are wanted to like have a I still had like some dumb hope that I

would have a relationship with them yet I think um but it's that kind to take that a little bit

further where this got to a really a T is as we were getting closer to our wedding so like

not to I'd say about a year after I met my girlfriend now wife at the time I had a like

sit down confrontation with my parents like that had been kind of putting off for a long time

and I really like gave it to them and it was essentially it came out of it like it was not good

overall my dad came away from it and it was like all apologetic but like kind of rubber bone kind

of stuff but my mom had been like she was always very I had never called her out before never

confronted her she was always kind of like victim perpetual um of my dad in a sense and when I

call her out she became very angry and bitter towards me and like it became apparent like after the

fact like like mom like and phone calls would be like oh like if she was angry that I wasn't just

letting it go and that I like you know that hadn't I wasn't just willing to like just let it

let it go and be done and everything um because she was very co-dependent and you know enabled my

dad and all these things but um but uh my wife and I are my girlfriend at the time I fiance like I

did to it I mean I like I got in the play where I was just done with my parents like I said like I

can't do this like I need out I need to be done like I don't want them at the wedding I don't

want to do this and this is maybe six months prior to the wedding and I just like I can't do this

um but she at the time it was in she didn't want the wedding to be disrupted and um she was still

holding out hope that my parents would like that it would get better um that we could figure it out

and I was still over it I'm like I just don't want to do this I don't like I just please don't like

I don't want to do this but but she was very like she was very serious about like like we just

need to like figure it out um so that was definitely a probably the biggest conflict I think

we've had or certainly as big as sticking point and our relationship that was difficult for me

around my parents with her okay I don't know honestly I don't I don't really know what to say I

don't know how many times I can ask for some sort of genuine connection or feeling and just get

this for sure this abstract description I don't I don't really know where to take the

conversation from here because you're just just it's like you're reading a script well you know

my there there there there there there there right there's no actual I'm not sure what it is that you

want to get out of the conversation I don't mean this in a critical way I'm just telling you I

I don't know what to do with the conversation because I keep saying you're emotionally disconnected

you don't have any feelings here's what I think is going on you had the sadist and thing you had

the control thing you had the helplessness thing and and and there's no emotional connection and you

know you you experienced a massive betrayal on the part of your girlfriend or your fiance you're

saying these people are appalling and I'm not trying to throw her under the bus we can look at all

the reasons for that but there's still the base animal passions right yeah but she sided with

your abusers for reasons of bullshit social convenience and this was after you had you've

been married for him how many years so we've been married for three over three years now okay so

you've been together six years married three yes okay so obviously you were together for three years

when you got married and she had met your parents and number of times she knew about the abuse

she knew about how appalling they had behaved towards you and continued to behave towards you

she knew the absolute horror and pain that they had caused you and she sided with them

yeah and and I mean that I told her when it's come up a number of times I mean it's just like

really that's something that I I mean she's since apologized and she I think it's fully

acknowledges and understands like why that was hurtful for me and why that was like I that was

not a good situation no that's a female way of putting it who cares if it's hurtful to you or not

that doesn't matter yeah what matters is if it's right or wrong now you're right I mean I have

conversations with people that could be hurtful to them does that make me a bad guy no I say truths

to people that are hurtful does that make me a bad guy no I'm sorry I hurt you makes it not moral

because you could be hurt by anything you you think you're a great singer and people say

that doesn't sound that good that's really hurtful it's like well but it's but it's true right so

that you hurting people who cares I mean then shouldn't care about that yeah what matters is if

it's right or wrong and I again I'm not throwing her under the vessel saying she's some terrible

person but it absolutely was a moral betrayal to side with your abusers against you yeah and I mean

if some guy had beaten the shit out of her and you said I'm going fishing with them would that be

okay now I just think I know if some cousin had repeatedly assaulted her as a child or done

even worse things he said no it's got to be in the wedding we've got to balance out the tables

that would be a betrayal and we can come up with all the reasons and so under that's fine

but too much understanding blunts emotions kills life too much trying to figure things out and

puzzle things out like everything's Sudoku it has you living a bloodless existence a passion

less existence an analytical abstract existence a description of things rather than the things

an unthreading of the yarn of causality rather than a vivid experience in the moment you're like

helium not gravity that's what I'm trying to get it yeah because you say well when I brought this

thing up with your girlfriend and you say well but you know I did the same thing with her parents

so I'm a blah blah blah right that's a way of just not feeling you could be mad at someone and

love them in fact the anger is part of loving them because the anger says this is unacceptable

this was wrong and through that you drill through to get to the base of the thing rather than

describing it you know think think of it a some form of art that you love art let's say dance

whatever right so we'll take an example I know I was talking about manliness let's take ballet

well let's say that you love ballet and your favorite ballet performer is in town and you and I

supposed to go we both love ballet this is excited coming for months to pay the ridiculous amount

for tickets because it's ballet doesn't go to food it goes to something and you can't make it

there's three stages in life well four I suppose not being interested in the ballet at all

and let's say you can't come to the ballet but I can describe the dance to you oh she's spinning oh

she's doing a little hop oh she's turning around right oh she's on her toes I think she did

clear right would that be particularly enthralling for you now all right now the second

layer third layer first layer you don't care second layer it's described to you third layer you're

there and you're watching the dance right more interesting right more vivid yep the last layer

is you're the dancer you actually moving your butt you are one with the music you are floating

through the air like about a fly you are pirouiting like a top you are the dancer so in conversations

with you I'm trying to get to the dancer I'm getting somewhere between don't care and description

yeah I understand I I am feeling a lot right now like from what you're describing and I think

that the that like that particular situation is something that has been that I did the biggest

barrier in our relationship during since that I mean it just I did feel it as a betrayal and it was

as very that was a very rough time for me at the time during that period because it was just like

I just didn't want like I was just I knew that I like I couldn't be have my parents in my life

anymore I just like knew it I did not want to put into single ounce of energy into spending

any more time with them or trying like I just I knew and I kept trying to express that and I just

kept getting met with with which is friction like it was just like I and it's I think like as an

extension that like something that was also very very frustrating at a later point is like we had

a conversation about her dad and I like I had been oh you know maybe okay with like the idea of

seeing if things could work with them but like that based on certain criteria they had to be met

essentially and once it became clear that wasn't happening I just said at a certain point and this

is actually shortly after you had done a call on with her and you had actually called me to me

out in that is not essentially protecting her enough from him which it was a reasonable point

and I took that very seriously and we had conversations around it and I you know there was

more things that happened with that and I just said like we like we can't do this anymore we have a

daughter like like he can't be in our lives anymore like I and I like she got very very upset and

actually very angry with me when I said that like that she felt that I was trying to be controlling

and trying to she didn't want to be like feel like I was controlling her controlling the

modern woman's word for standards and it was just like taking that and like mixture with like

what past experience was like I tried to get rid of my parents you at the time weren't like

letting me you wouldn't like barely see you were you're getting pushing back on that now why

was she making it very why was she pushing back um I mean with my parents it was again I think

largely there was one I think she still held a hope because she like the she had been offered

affection by them in a way that my her parents had never done but also the bigger part I think the

wedding like I think it was all commonly like we didn't want to disrupt the wedding okay what is

what does that mean disrupt the wedding so you keep saying these things I don't know what the

fuck you mean no no of course I'll be just like by I'll be by extensions like my parents can't

come then it's like well like what about the rest of my extended family no like all the other not

that no it's not that okay um why were your parents not coming to your wedding such a problem

for your wife um I I guess if not what I was trying to say then I'd maybe missing

what that is what or what you're getting at well from your wife's perspective if your parents

aren't coming to the wedding who does she have to tell about that her parents right and her parents

will say what oh I guess I don't know like they would be they'd be concerned they would be

up like I guess I'm not even sure what their parents would say well they would say why why

why I his parents not coming to the wedding right and what would your fiance say I mean we were

pretty so a little more context her mom was actually out of the picture for quite a while and then

it was only like sort of last minute she decided to invite her mom because she didn't want to regret

not doing that um she didn't want to be so fine so her father so she goes so father by the way dad

my fiance's parents aren't coming to the wedding yeah I mean now had the had the parents met

they had had not they had never met they never met so kids are getting married had they

talked on the phone had they had a Skype call or whatever they would do no nothing

she the fuck is going on in the modern world man how the hell do you merge families

that the parents have never talked well it's a great question

Jesus never incomprehensible yeah

all right so she goes through dad she says my fiance's parents are not coming to the wedding

her dad says why not and what would she say uh I mean I think she would she would have told

them why because the the actual reason why because I had already expressed he was aware of like

that I had it tumultuous really shit okay I can't do this fucking abstraction anymore I'm just

gonna stop it what would she say how would she describe this this issue to her father she I mean

I I think she would have said that her uh my parents were he all abusive to me and that I had chosen

out to have them there because they were that my relationship with them was not good that we had

tied conflict and that it I decided to end but I think she would have said that okay you be your

wife I'll be the dad ready okay okay so his his parents were abusive to him what do you mean

they would have my his dad was an alcoholic he was very explosive with y'all a lot

and so yeah that that's the type of the issue y'all at him all the time was mean to him um

that that was the mean way that he abused him oh so his dad is like an abusive drunk what about

his mother his mother was an enabler and she was neglectful herself overall okay now honey my

understanding because you met his parents half a dozen times is that you like them do you agree

with his decision oh yes so what changed that you liked them up until five minutes ago and now

they're not even able to come to the wedding they mattered had conversations or he had had conversations

with them and they he tried to confront them no I'm not talking about him I'm talking about you

you liked them up until five minutes ago and now they're not coming to the wedding do you agree

with him not what did he do and the whole process do you agree with him that the

his parents should not come to the wedding because his father drank and yelled yes I agree with them

because of the way they had treated him more recently that I had seen in witness and in their

conversations and when I saw how how dad they worked towards him I understood and so you've seen

this directly you've seen his parents abuse him yes okay and what did you see I saw them on the

phone they this dad just screaming at him on the phone and telling him that that he can't go that

his dad said his dad said they can't go to therapy or he won't go to therapy because that's not

like just not gonna have it how dare he suggests that how dare he suggests that he then we go to

therapy or anything like that how dare he suggests that I stopped drinking that like just

he got very angry at him on the phone and it was he was drunk and bled rent okay has your fiance

ever gone to therapy yes okay and when did he go to therapy a couple years before we met okay

so the therapy didn't take right because he was still in contact with his parents for years

after therapy if they were such terrible parents that's right okay do you have any concern

oh daughter of mine that you are marrying into well it's a family that's completely fallen apart

you have no access to grandparents and he is a largely untreated victim if I understand this

correctly I assume that the abuse had to be very severe to not even have the parents come to the

wedding are you concerned that you are marrying into a pretty trashy family with a history of

severe abuse and your fiance is largely untreated that is I mean yes I should be concerned about

that one put it that way yes okay is it wise to go ahead with the wedding in the near future if

everything has changed that you thought you knew about this family and the people that you liked

turned out to be absolute monstrous which means that you are reevaluating the entire situation

and you thought it was a good family and it turns out to be so monstrous that the parents are

uninvited from the wedding which is severe obviously if the parents didn't let him have an

intendo when he was eight then it would be no reason to have them not come to the wedding so it

must be incredibly severe abuse to have them to have their wedding invitations extended and then

yanked can we agree on that yes so you judge the entire family to be the opposite of what it

actually is you thought good family nice parents love to have them at the wedding turns out you

were entirely wrong now how could you be right to about your fiance and entirely wrong about his

entire family yeah I don't know I just sorry I just need to pull back for one second I just

remembered one part of it is that my mom after I confronted my mom for the first time she started

not treating my wife very well my fiance at the time very well and was very like cold to her very

suddenly after that because of my parents I think we're trying to attribute my change

what does that have to do with the conversation we were just pretending to have so no I was

the same because no you jumped right out of the conversation sorry why I I mean the what at the

point I was just trying to make is that I think my wife may have it may have changed when she

no because suddenly it's just like she was just cold true okay so her father and you would do

the same with your daughter if your daughter said for three years yes my boyfriend my fiance

has a good family I like them and then it turns out that the family was extremely abusive

and this would be the perception if you yank parental invites to a wedding that signals and

radiates severe abuse yes and also that it wasn't known that it wasn't processed that it suddenly

emerged it was unconscious before now it's conscious and everything is reversed which means that

for a father his daughter fell in love with a guy who was lying maybe not consciously

but he's like hey come beat my parents hey my parents should come to the wedding hey you like my

parents hey my parents are good and then everything blows up and the parental relationship is utterly

severed and they can't even come to the wedding it will never be part of his life which means that

the structure and the person that his daughter fell in love with has just done a 180 yeah no

that they just complete times and I it's a father myself I don't know what her dad is really

like of course but as a father myself that would be raising all kinds of alarm bells with me

and and you fell in love with a guy who seemed to like his family now it turns out he hates his

family what yeah who was the guy who loved his family who now hates his from the outside right

who was the guy who loved his family who now hates his family right which means that he can think

he loves someone and then turn on them what's that going to be like for you as a wife that he can

love people for decades and then cut them out of his life and it turns out he just didn't love

them at all he hated them or he went from loving them to hating them or whatever yeah what does that

mean for you as a wife I mean it means every I'm in the whole foundation there we're on there's

not an existence or that it's like in terms of trust or knowing who the person is certainly

you don't know who they are at that point well it would mean that the person's personality is in a

state of extreme flux from loving the parents you should meet them to I hate my parents they can't

come to the wedding it means that yeah and this is how long before the wedding couple of months six

months we started having those conversations about six months or so and when was it that you

decided your parents won't come into the wedding so they I mean they did but I had been telling

or having those conversations with their probably six months prior and we had those for a while

before we finally just like settled on like okay they're coming and what do you mean settle

what does that mean settle time I mean we just like I mean we just ended up no what's the way

here you didn't want them to come yeah no I didn't of course and I capitulated to I could I

capitulated to what my wife wanted or yeah why did your wife want it so badly that she would have

your abusive parents at your wedding to avoid the conflict with my or with her dad or avoid that

topic coming up with her dad in that well her dad would and I would completely understand this

not to have sympathy but her dad you know maybe he was a bad guy I mean obviously if she thinks he

was I'm not gonna question that but it looks kind of fucked up doesn't it yeah it's

trashy it looks random it looks like grudges it looks like almost looks petty you know like what five

minutes ago you left your parents now they can't come to your wedding what the fuck yeah absolutely

it looks like there's no stability of income or the sorry no stability of affection and there's

a rollercoaster that is occurring yeah and unfortunately like her dad though was not any of those

things and we he never would have said a word but that doesn't change I don't know what he would have

I don't know what you meant so her dad just like he was so like he couldn't engage on anything

serious in any sort of way and he just wanted like he would have sprung upon it probably and express

that but he wouldn't does ultimately he wouldn't have ultimately made some like big judgment like that

about it he would have just like tried to sweep it under the rug and like but he it would have been a

really awkward situation for her with them in that regard and for him and everybody hang on

her now now I'm really confused like sorry now I'm completely back but I'm sure I'm missing something

obvious so just let me through it so you really don't want your parents to come to the wedding

and your wife's father who at that time was the only person coming to the wedding from her

parents so because your mother her mother wasn't coming to the last minute to find remember

correctly so you really didn't want your parents coming to the wedding and your wife's father

wouldn't have said anything would have just swept it under the rug so why did they come to the wedding

then I mean the the my what I believed about it was it's just general like optics she didn't want

it to look like people to judge that or to think that there was um that that there was some instability

there um so she didn't want any people knowing the truth he that's kind of what I would think

she wanted to cover up and go for appearance at the expense of your happiness right because

would you have to have you parents at the wedding I mean no and that was the we it was over after

the wedding I never talked to like I never saw them again after the wedding my dad was their drunk

and everything that I you know anticipated would be the case and it was I just I never talked to

them again never saw them in person okay so why and again this isn't a judgment question it's

just a curiosity question why did you capitulate uh what was her reasoning that compelled your

agreement I think it was me just trying to avoid more conflict with her above all else I I had been

generally conflict diverse through most of my life and I did like just but I I just wanted to

not continue to have that conflict and so I okay but what was her argument as to why they should

yeah but I mean I of course you were conflict diverse I get that that someone's baked into the

equation why did you fold well because I I wanted to fold it's like yeah doesn't really ask

any information yeah but what was her argument as to why your parents should be there yeah I

I don't remember like all the specifics but generally I think it was her argument was that it was

that it was which you didn't want to disrupt like the wedding by like oh like my parents

so show up then what does that mean for the rest of my extended family like how does that like

reflect how do people feel is it ruined the the general feeling of the wedding does it like that

that kind of thing like we don't want it to disrupt the wedding itself like that was her okay tell

me what you mean but as you keep using this word I keep asking what the fuck it just what do you

mean by this restaurant just that it would be like that people would be talking about it behind

our backs and people like and that I don't know that people looked down on us would that people would

it's hard for me to articulate it's just I felt like it's just she wanted to keep the

appearances for the wedding and just keep things looking like they were better than they actually were

at your expense yeah I mean now I'm not only do you have that horrible memory of the wedding

but every time you look at wedding pictures there's your father's blurry eyes somewhere in the background

right yeah yeah no absolutely I mean I just say this and maybe I've taken this too personally but

because the end of neither of my parents came to my wedding I mean it was I didn't want them there

I deeply didn't want them there and it was it was very the whole experience between us like

with that was very hurtful for me and it is continue like we've had conversations at various points

since then and I you know I think she generally understands that now and it's like she's been

been sincerely apologetic since that time and I know I do I do I she isn't generally a positive

about it I she may not fully like that like I may not as like be able to fully convey to her like

maybe the severity of that of what happened and like how that maybe is how deeply that has

impacted me and that's sort of undercurrent of our relationship in that regard but she is

genuinely apologetic about about what happened with that she has expressed regret about doing that

in that back at that time and that we should have just basically a look one got married we didn't

need all those people there we should have just not even done any of it okay so this I don't know

if you remember but my framework for apologies is three things apologies restitution and a guarantee

that it's not going to happen again so she's made the apology what else I guess restitution

I have a hard time imagining what that would look like in that regard other than her trying to

you know she continues to put in a lot of serious work for

I can't tell you what restitution would look like if I had done something like that and obviously

I'm not putting myself forward here with some universal standard I'm just telling you

so if I had screwed up my wife's experience at the wedding then I would throw her as big a party as

I could afford in some beautiful place and invite people we really cared about and do have a

do over so that she could replace the negative memories with positive memories yeah I would do that

and I would plan all of that and I would make sure it happened and so I would redo the wedding

but in a positive way yeah I think that makes sense and so it certainly there's nothing like that

I wouldn't say there was any like the actual like restitution that way and then as far as promised

not to do it again I mean that certain I guess it depends on like she certainly promised to not do

it again obviously we haven't had another scenario quite like that one but you know they're probably

topics that could be well okay so let me again I'm not trying to you know throw her under the bus

but I'll so yeah when you are procrastinating or avoidant and your wife gets irritable or annoyed

or frustrated that's a repeat right okay because she's not being curious don't you think tell me

would you feel yeah no that's interestingly and I'm sure it's because I've heard you talk about it

before but I that's something that's been on my mind a lot more recently is like feeling like

it's she's first upset and frustrated with me but like I'm like always kind of like feel like

there's no curiosity is like what will I do I actually brought that up with the recent like

I want to feel like you actually are like concerned because if something happens to her I try to like

if she's if I did it's the opposite and something she did something that maybe upset me or whatever

like my immediate question is like okay like what's going on like why is this happening like I

want to get to the bottom of like why that happened and not just like be upset about like what

happened I don't hold I'm not somebody who can hold on to things like if I get like and there's

that's one of the differences between her and I is that I get upset with her about something it's

almost always very brief and it's almost always like this very like okay like I get it I understand

I don't take it personally usually like unless it should be personal and I'm like okay yeah like I

get it I understand where you're coming from like it's it's over and done like we're moving on

and for her it's like yeah but that's because you can do that because your feelings are so distant

and that's true yeah that's not necessarily a virtue yeah no and definitely 100 percent

um but yeah I mean I think I mean if somebody has a can't get that can't pull out their tooth

but you can just yank your tooth out without any pain that doesn't mean to tooth is healthier

right yeah and what's her state the status of her relationship with her parents at the moment

uh she hasn't talked to her mom since the wedding either um her

dad she had cut off her ear and now she's in therapy with him uh once a week

and they're she's trying to see if there's any way forward there or not

and why did she cut off her dad for a year and when was that relative to the wedding

uh that would have been about two years after the wedding um we had moved across the country

after the wedding too just still it did away from all them everybody um oh so you wanted everyone

at your wedding so that you could move and put a continent between you okay that absolutely

uh um but her dad I just she had been hurt she was going through therapy and stuff

herself again she had had a call on with you and talked about that the situation with her dad

and so she took some of the you know things that you had said and it really thought about a lot of

that and so she kind of confront tried confronting him a couple times and it didn't go well and

that's why she stopped talking to him um okay and why did she pick it up again

not I don't know whether she should or shouldn't have of course I'm just asking these questions

I also want to make sure I don't sound accusatory like why I don't know I don't know right I mean

but why did she pick it up again yeah she picked up again because she just she essentially didn't

deal like that she had closed the door yet and wanted to please don't give me these analogies I

don't know what that's like she closed the door yet I don't know what that means I'm stating

how she described it no no what the what happened yeah yeah I mean she was just

feeling guilty about it and she was feeling I think she just didn't have what she

at least as she would claim she didn't feel like she had closure on it she had some hope yet

that things could get better and she she I mean she want I don't know if this is because she's

I think it's because she just desperately wants to have like a dad or a parent um because

none of us do otherwise but I mean sorry but okay did you want her to get back in touch with

her father no absolutely not I told her no directly I didn't want that okay so why does she

have your parents at the wedding and you don't have her avoid getting back together with her dad

right because the fact that she wants to see her dad is not particularly relevant because she

already established that wanting something doesn't mean it's gonna happen you wanted your parents

not at the wedding your parents were at the wedding because she wanted it so that's my question

in what area in the relationship does she defer to you because you deferring to her I get that

and what area is the relationship does your wife defer to you yeah I mean I don't think that

that happens a lot um with trivial things sure but like when it comes to like the more significant

things like okay does she understand that not giving you any authority is emasculating

I did it also a repeat of what your parents did sorry go ahead no I know I recently had

started to kind of have that kind of frustration um it's definitely said like I felt like I

not able to like by when that happens when she when she denies my ability to like protect

not again it's not just about our boat with our daughter it is obviously a big thing too the biggest

thing um like that that I don't feel like I like a huge problem in dilemma for me because I feel

like then I'm not I actually use the word neutered with her and she actually like felt up I think

she definitely seemed she expressed being upset um that I even used that word like that aggressively

I'm like that's what you said you feeling neutered like that I said use that word no I understand that

aggressive yeah I know yeah yeah yeah you say I don't have any authority you do what you want my

feelings don't really matter I feel neutered and she's like I'm upset by that so you said I'm not

really having my my feelings taken into account and she's like hey I'm going to focus on my

feelings about that yeah that was essentially it okay I thought one and after the fact we had a

conversation about it and we cleared there on that and like she acknowledged that was like it's

like what so oftentimes we have those type of conversations in the moment and gets heated but then

like she won't step back after the emotions have subsided and we can have a more rational calm

conversation yeah it doesn't matter though bro sorry to be like it doesn't matter because you

don't have any authority in the relationship yeah so all these recent discussions that don't lead

to you having any authority listen this stuff my wife says it's this way and it's this way it's fine

she's she's got her areas of expertise in this areas where I say it's this way and it's this way

yeah and I have that with certain like when it comes to financial things you want to come

with certain things but it's like it's when it comes to those like certainly her relationships

that like that her relationship with other people like that's oh so financial things would be

no we're not paying for therapy with your dad that's a waste of money that that would have been

something I should have and could have said yeah okay so not really financial things because she

can just spend money on things you don't like and you can't say anything about it yeah and that's

a great point for sure okay absolutely okay so you have areas in your marriage

and of course I'm not saying the marriage is bad or anything like that right but you have

areas in your marriage that are just like your parents in terms of not of course the abuse or

anything like that but in terms of your will and your capacity to affect things to have decisions

have traction and meaning and validation in the world to have your willpower be more than idle day

dreaming and your wife of course knows because she knows all about your childhood your wife knows

that you were not allowed to will things as a child right you felt helpless

and that's really bad for you that's a vulnerability now love of course is when we put

what's best for the other person against our own impulses I mean to take a silly example

if you're I don't know business travel or something and some hot woman throws herself at you

and you say well no because I love my family right whereas in the moment there may be some

temptation or something like that right but you say no because what's good for the other person

is more important than your immediate impulses if that makes sense yeah okay

so your wife knows that your feelings weren't taken into account by somewhat selfish people

who overrode your concerns with their own preferences when you were growing up right right

and it's always a big question about getting together as a couple which is if she's kind of

bossy and you have a very tough time holding up your end of the negotiation does she choose you

in part because of that does she choose you because of the wounds in and again I'm not saying

100% obviously right but is she choosing you unconsciously in part because of the wounds of

your childhood that she can more easily get her way because your parents never let you get your way

now that that that certainly resonates with me right now she also knows that your parents

apologized but never made restitution and never took steps to guarantee the bad behavior wasn't

going to happen again that the apologies were largely meaningless or empty because a lot of people

will say I apologize and that's it that's the end of the whole thing and then if you say well

I'm not satisfied what do they say no why do you keep bringing that yeah hey I already apologized

I already apologized what do you keep bringing it up for I mean she doesn't have closure with

her father do you have closure with her apologies I'm not sure doesn't sound like it yeah certainly

with certain things I don't do not deal that way all right if the other question is can things

be universalized you remember I was talking about how the thief can't really complain about being

stolen from and lazy self-indulgent hedonistic parents can't much complain if you lack discipline

to do chores right so can your wife's principles be universalized what I want is what I want

and it doesn't matter if you don't want it your desire to not have your abusive parents at your

wedding vastly exceeded your wife's desire to look slightly better to people you didn't care

about and move away from anyway right and don't have it your life right right so your desire

to not have your parents at your wedding was like a plus 10 it's probably about a stronger

desire as you've ever had in your life her desire to not disrupt you know whatever that fundamentally

means was like I don't know a plus two or a plus three right yeah and so her relatively minor

preference absolutely trumped your massive major preference and let's universalize that

can a marriage function if people say my preferences my weak preferences trump your strong

preferences my conformity preferences trump your moral preferences that I get my way and you don't

get your way can a marriage function like that if that principle is universalized no absolutely not

no of course not I mean marriages I think flourish best when you focus more on the other

persons happiness and well-being and they focus more on yours because they have more objectivity

that we have internally you know I can't check my back for weird moles right my wife can't

and your wife knows 150% because you haven't hidden your past from her and she's listening to me

talk to me so your wife knows 150% that she can get her way because you were abused as a child

yeah it's tough when you put it that way but yeah you're right listen I'm not saying she sits there

like rubbing in her hands and consciously plotting it out I'm just unconscious right unconscious

we can give her a lack of self-knowledge thing and that's tough right so the tough thing is if the

marriage negotiations are founded upon unconscious exploitation of prior abuse what happens when

that abuse is healed what happens if you change the deal because the deal in the marriage was

I get my way from your wife and you'll put up a fight and you'll fault and I don't mean this

with any disrespect right this is just childhood training you were still in your 20s and you know

all of that right so what happens if you change the deal and you say I am not going to allow you

to unconsciously exploit my childhood wounds to get your way anymore because I am a father

and you have a daughter is that right that's right yeah and I don't want my daughter growing up

to think that that's how women and men interact I don't want my daughter growing up thinking

like there's an old Greek saying they say the man is the the man is the head of the household

and then the women say yes but the women are the neck and can turn the head anyway they want

and you need to have your areas of authority so that your daughter sees two people negotiating

not one person escalating to some degree and the other person folding because your wife I'm sure says

as she said when you said I feel neutered she said that upsets me she's saying hey you should

really take my feelings into account my feelings matter my feelings are important okay but why is

that not true for you as well your feeling of feeling neutered is very important and this is why

she's susceptible to the leftist friend because leftist focus on their feelings is not on

what is just or right or fair tomorrow and obviously not say your wife is immoral or amoral

I'm just we're talking about this this corner of the marriage so to speak yeah so in the show

and this is the last thing I'll say sorry for the long speech but the last thing I'll say is that

you are a hedonist regarding conflict is he right because a hedonist puts short-term

relief above long-term happiness so if you withdraw from conflict and surrender your position

what happens in the short run I mean it gets better in the short run sure it doesn't help longer

absolutely absolutely and so the addictive behavior is to appeasement and that is entirely and I

say this with no negative judgment if you at all or if you're wife I'm pointing at the mechanics

I'm not you know casting big thunderbolts of moral judgment right but I am saying that in my view

that is the mechanic that you saw your parents appease their hedonism with short-term strategies

that cost them everything in the long run and your father's addiction to alcohol is matched to

some degree by your addiction to appeasement it reduces discomfort in the short run and increases

discomfort in the long run and you want your daughter to respect you right man and if things

continue without change what will happen in the long run do you think I'm not trying to lead

the question to have genuinely curious do you think that your daughter will look to you with

respect as an authority figure that certainly would imagine not and that's an area I mean to

stop yeah I mean not as much as as would be ideal now if your daughter doesn't look to you as

an authority figure then she won't look to your wife as an authority figure because if your wife

is quote dominating you that comes out of weakness like to take a silly example if Mike Tyson beats

up a girl guide we don't look at the girl guide is strong do we look with respect at Mike Tyson

for beating up a girl guide no of course not right so if she looks at her mother and says well mom

kind of had to marry a guy that she could push around does that make her respect to her mother

no so if your daughter grows up without and there'll be some obviously it's not black and white

but if she grows up with diminished respect for her parents what fills the void because she's

going to have to figure out how to live and if she doesn't hugely respect her parents what fills

the void if parental authority is diminished her peers yeah peers media woke

whatever right I mean one of the reasons why women are going super woke is because

they do not respect parental authority and parental authority is I care enough about my wife

to push back against her worst habits I mean you talk about your mother being an enabler right in

the roleplay between your wife and her father you described your mother you you had your imaginary

fiancee described your mother as an enabler to my playing the father right yeah okay so are you

enabling some of your wife's not massive but bits of selfishness yes right so you are rewarding

in a sense some of the more negative corners of her personality that's not love we have to protect

people from their own bad habits as well and we all have them right I'm not placing myself above

this at all right yeah and so to to love your wife is to say I you you developed this authoritarianism

from your family and I'm not going to participate in that yeah and for the sake of our daughter

and our future marriage sorry go ahead no you're fine there's this there's a lot a lot that you

could just said there I did have them like before I called in the email it sent I had

mentioned to that I struggled with asserting my needs and wants my relationship so

great how you segue into that with this because it it's just I and it has you kind of stated like

right like I've been trying to work towards I got aware of these problems I have I've been trying

to like get there but it's like it's hard when the relationship is like built on how it initially

was for this she chose you I know because you surrendered and you chose her in order to surrender so

you don't blame her right yeah no absolutely and that's and so like we've actually had more conflict

the last like year or so because I've been trying to like be more like that do I mean we've had

discussions about it even to a certain extent and it's just like yeah it's a it's a really painful

process trying to like to change something that was I I'm very aware of but you can't no kind of

no no so sorry to interrupt you can yeah we can't fight you can't fight for these things right

you just assert right and the broken record technique you can negotiate anything is a pretty good book

I read as a teenager but the broken record technique is you know your wife says I want you to do

X and you have a disagreement you say I don't want to do X but I want you to but I don't want to

right isn't it's not really a fight you know if if you go into a car dealership and they try and

sell you the most expensive car and you say I don't I don't want the car thank you I don't want

a $200,000 car is there a fight no well you just don't want the car if they keep pushing you say

I don't want to thanks I'm at right in terms of that particular conversation but you don't you

don't get into a fight yeah and the other thing too is you're allowed to be assertive and wrong

because a lot of times we say well I can't be assertive unless I'm 100% right I don't know

so certainly there are lots of people who are assertive who are completely wrong it's called the

Dunning Kruger effect right so one of the ways that we kill our own assertiveness as we demand that

we'd be absolutely certain that we're right I mean I I have I mean I said earlier I made a mistake

because it was your grandparents who said to your parents wish you would right wish you had never

been born and so on and you corrected me which was great I appreciate that but that doesn't mean

I have to be tentative about everything I say going forward I just asserted something I'm not

you know taking voluminous notes here so I made a mistake and there's times when I've been assertive

and I've been wrong so I mean so so you don't have to be right you have to be honest and the problem

with a piecement is it's just lying maybe we have all these words for it right just lying yeah

right it's saying okay I guess I'll be okay with it or okay we can do it your way and so on

but it's not genuinely what you feel what you feel is rejected because the other person should be

fighting for what you want and just to piggyback off of that I mean it's something that even

in recent conversations although that I've stated is like I've tried to express it like I don't

necessarily like feel like loved sometimes and like it's very hard for me to articulate why

yeah I had such our time like to explain why but I just and it's something I've grappled with

for quite a long time and I just didn't know how to articulate it I didn't know like say like

the reason why and explain like this is why I couldn't say it to myself like put words to like

what it is I was making me feel like unloved right and it makes most sense now it does yeah

because she's fighting to get what she wants at your expense that's win lose marriages cannot

flourish with win lose it has to be win win right and you you just you keep figuring things out

right because you guys have a pattern where you have a disagreement and then I assume usually

you fold and that's how the disagreement is resolved but it's not because if she gets what she

wants at your expense the feeling of unloved will grow and the feelings of resentment will grow

and then at some point you're just going to start fighting back and I guess that's been the last year

but you have to have an agreement on principles right so you guys need to have a philosophical

conversation which I'd be happy to facilitate if that would help but the philosophical conversation

goes something like this you PB what is the principle by which we resolve disputes well and if

your wife says well I get my way it's well that's not you PB right why why should one person and

not the other person get the way if the principle is well we should just both get our way

at the other person's expense that can't be achieved right logically logically that can't be

achieved it's impossible so you have to say well we have to have we have to keep having the

discussion until we come up with some kind of win win and we also need to examine the justice

and virtue of each person's preference you not wanting to have abuses at a marriage is just

right and fair now you having listened to me for half a decade before you got married and

being all kinds of positive and lovey-dovey with your parents is definitely on you

and that's mixed signals so she's got reason to complain yeah to be fair I was not lovey-dovey

with them I just I told her that they were not great and I was seeing if there was a path forward

but that's fair I just don't want to mischaracterize that but it's still like I should have already

positive about having them in your life and you want to do my the wedding as far as understanding

and then you have the confrontation with things turned around and you also invited your girlfriend

of five or six times to meet and visit with your parents so you were certainly positive yeah

you're right and lovey-dovey was too strong and I appreciate the correction but you were certainly

positive towards your parents and then from her perspective that's kind of a rug pull yeah I

should have dealt with my parents before I met her and should have already had that buttoned up

and done well yes and then she should have you know she should have said well hang on why would I

want to meet the people who did you great wrong as a child right who neglected and abused you

and so yeah but listen I mean we're all we're all growing it's a journey blah blah blah so that's

that's all that's all sort of water under the bridge but you guys need to have a conversation on

how do we resolve disputes yeah and you know the existing patterns seems to be and you know

seems to be that she asserts and then you put up a sort of mock fight and then fold and that's

not productive in the long run yeah and I think that what happens for me oftentimes I'll go into

something where I feel like I have the sort of the argument in my head or have like the rational

my head but then as if it starts to get like emotional at all I lose my head no no because you think

you have to this is the intellectual side of you that I'm sure sure you think that you need to

have just the right arguments you don't yeah you have feelings I don't want to yeah right because

because people like if you if you were to say I don't want you to go to therapy with your dad

because it brings your dad's influence into our life it's negative it's difficult for our daughter

is difficult for me it's an expense we don't need I don't want you to do it now she's going to

have all these arguments right and you're just like but I don't want you to do it well why and

people ask you why so that they can dismantle it right like if you say to a car dealer salesman

I don't want to buy this car is there whoa whoa why don't you want it and they're going to

ask you those questions so they can dismantle your arguments and get you to do what they want

which is to buy the car right oh it's too expensive oh no but look at all these features and maybe

I can knock 5% off the price blah blah blah right yeah I just want to know like you're stating

that right there actually by maybe feel them like the largest amount of emotion like in this

conversation um like feeling like a pattern that I've always seen is like yeah like being sort of

argue somebody arguing me out of my feelings yes um all right I have to justify my feelings and if

I don't have a good explanation or argument for my feelings and they're not valid yeah because

your wife has a feeling called I don't feel like I have closure and I think I'll be happier I'll

be better or have more positive feelings if I go to therapy with my dad so she's just basing

everything on feelings which is fine but then you can too I want I have a feeling I want to go

I have a feeling I don't want you to go right so that cancels it each other out and then you have

to actually negotiate because right now it's like you're like okay you have your feelings and I'll

suppress mine right which is your childhood thing and she shouldn't do that because that's

exploiting your childhood wound which I'm not saying she's doing consciously but yeah yeah you

have to be like once you find out about people's childhoods you have an obligation to not repeat

what was inflicted upon them as a child because it's a cheat code you can get your way

but only by working an existing wound which is not honorable yeah yeah and once she helps you

put the wheels of your will on the ground and get you somewhere you will find the

procrastination will evaporate procrastination is despair it's hopelessness it's my will kind

of affect anything and it's also passive aggression so you don't want to do what your wife wants you

to do because you feel pushed around and like everyone who's pushed around like the extreme example

like that's not a very hard working slave it's like well yeah because he's being ordered around

so he's a note it's a form of resistance and I would explain the contrast of that with like

other things that maybe I do well in my like job and career versus more domestic things

yeah if women want men to succeed which they do right I mean obviously your income is essential

to the household so if women want men to succeed they need to foster that will at every possible

opportunity and not overwrite that will because that's going to limit career potential for sure

right okay all right have we done useful helpful stuff yeah I appreciate your help this is

super insightful and I just appreciate your time you're very welcome and happy to help

any further if I can do say hi to wife for me and I enjoyed our private call and I hope you'll

keep me posted about how things are going sounds good thank you thanks brother take care take care bye