(68) Don't Look, Don't Tell

0:00Intimate Judaism deals with sensitive topics and uses explicit language. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Intimate Judaism. I'm Rabbi Scott Khan. And I'm Tully Rosenbaum and I'm really excited about the episode today. We are going to be talking about when the requirements of Halacha or the expectations of Halacha may possibly intersect with a woman's need for feeling in control of her body, feeling in control of knowing how her body works or her bodily autonomy. One of our guests today, Malkahana Amiqai, who has an Instagram account called the Bohemian Balabusta, wrote a post that says the following in part. There are times when a woman may be instructed by Ahalacha authority not to look at toilet paper or underwear, in very specific situations based on her individual halacha reality.

1:03By teaching women as a foundational approach to simply turn a blind eye, never notice, and disconnect from what's happening in their bodies, that's a problem. Tarata Mishbhaha was never meant to keep women dissociated, unaware, or in the dark about their own physiology. When women are taught, just don't look, as a blanket rule, they lose the ability to understand their cycles, notice normal versus abnormal changes, recognize potential medical or fertility issues, and build halachic discernment instead of fear. Something as simple as how soon after urinating, one wipes, can dramatically change a halachic situation. These nuances matter, women deserve to know them. Awareness is not the enemy of Halacha, ignorance is. This can obviously create, potentially though not necessarily a major contradiction between what many women are being told by their halachic authorities, and what's medically wise. So today with our guest Malka Khana and U.S. at Halacha, Lisa Septimus, we're going to navigate this together, and we'll get to that in just a moment. First, check out the website intamajudism.com for the full podcast archive, show notes,

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3:11Now let me introduce our guests. Lisa Septimus is the Uyutsa Talakhah of the five towns and in Scarsdale. She answers over 1,000 Torah Tamishbhah questions a year, and also gives Shurim on a variety of topics. In collaboration with Nishmat, she is the host of the podcast, Dear Yohat Set. She teaches women in Halacha and Talmud at North Shore Hebrew Academy High School in Great Neck New York, where she also serves as the director of student life. She played an active role as Reviton at the Young Israel of North Woodmere and at the River Deal Jewish Center for more than 20 years, and was integrally involved with adult education and youth programming. She and her husband, Rabbi Dr. U. Deceptimus, are the parents of four children. Malkachana Amichai is a women's educator, author, and speaker, specializing in female body literacy, cycle awareness, and sacred sexuality. Through her courses, workshops, and digital programs, she guides women navigating menstruation, mikvah, marriage, motherhood, and the evolving stages of the female life cycle. She's the author of My Mommy's Moon Time, a children's book that gently normalizes menstruation for young families.

4:12She has developed multiple educational offerings, focused on reducing shame, increasing body literacy, and equipping women with practical tools for healthy communication and intimate relationships. Her work integrates traditional values with nervous system awareness and emotional regulation. She lives in Israel with her husband and five children, Malkachana and Lisa, welcome to Intimid Judaism. Thank you for having me, thank you for having me as well. I was scrolling through Instagram, and I saw Malkachana's post, it really spoke to me. I remember, because it's a while ago, I've graduated from this stuff, as I'm sure you all figured, but I remember that feeling of being told not to look, not to check, and kind of feeling like, well, I want to look, I want to check, I want to know what's going on with my body, but also knowing that it's a trap. If you look, you're going to be a knee-devil, and you don't want to be there, so it spoke to me that young women are actually talking about it, and saying, wait a second, these

5:14halahic guidelines shouldn't interfere with your sense of knowing about your body. So I'm going to start with you, Malkachana, because you put the post in there, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about why you posted this, about what kind of your approach is to being able to stay very connected to yourself physically, and also listen to those guidelines of not looking, not checking, not seeing, how does that work? Sure, so I work with a lot of color with young brides, and then one of the other courses I offer is called the McVarisa, which is a refresher course for married women. My favorite course to teach is teaching the married women, because they have the experience of having learned when they were younger, and then with time and experience, and all these shared look that they're asking in certain spotting situations, they're now coming to the material with totally different eyes. So where this post came from was mostly from the experienced married women that I work

6:18with, seeing that this is something that they are all holding so much, that maybe in their younger years they were told not to look, and now they're mothers, and they've had babies, and they want to know what's going on with their body, and they want to notice how their body is changing, and they want to be holding by a halacha in the way that they were taught, but now that there's so many questions that come out within the gray area that they weren't provided with in the beginning. So the question here is, you know, specifically you said, to be able to stay within the halacha guidelines, I actually find that when someone learns the halacha guidelines, at least I'm sure you would totally elaborate on this, the more someone knows the halacha guidelines and depth, the more you actually are invited to understand your body more. I think that very often on the shot level of just don't look, is almost a more watered down version of halacha. When someone is taught the halacha on an intensive level, they're taught how to navigate if you see XYZ, how to handle it. So I find that there's this clash that the more I learn halacha, the more stark or the

7:20more disassociated I'm going to be with my body, but I find it's actually the opposite. So this post came from a place of trying to spread light to that concept of go deeper, it will say you're freer, it will help you get to know your body more, it will help you feel more confident with your halacha practice. Okay, thanks. So I'm going to turn to you, Lisa, I'd love your comments on that. You're the halacha expert here, you're the yoetset. So it's okay to look, you should look, and then determine for yourself what you're saying, or you tell people not to look, or it depends on the woman, if she's somebody who's connected to her body, she can look, but somebody who's not is better off not looking. What's your take on this? Okay, lots of good questions, and also unpacking why there's so much confusion in this area. I definitely relate to what Marlkechana said in terms of loving to teach her Mika reset class and talk to already married women, because these types of questions are of what

8:22women see or don't see when they go to the bathroom are the most common questions that I get as a yoetset halacha and that I assume most women, most yoetset get. Women are always calling and beginning the conversation with, I know I'm not supposed to look, but XYZ happened, which, as you mentioned, there isn't really a contradiction here. In fact, what's kind of funny about this is Nida in general, one of the complaints that women sometimes have towards Nida, is it forces you to be so hyper aware of what's going on in your body. During the Shivanakim, you have to check and examine and scrutinize, and that can be a lot for women to take in and to manage.

9:23So I think that the advice, not to look, that many college teachers and many rabbis gave to women for so long, was less of a halachic requirement and more to, more in the place of trying to alleviate for women a certain anxiety. But I think what we'll do, hopefully in this conversation, is reexamine whether that actually is helpful to women or not. In terms of the halachic issues, I mentioned it's confusing. There are three real halachic issues that can kind of come into play with women going to the bathroom. One is Dambi-Meyra-Glayam, which means seeing blood when you are urinating, issues of hargasha or khashash hargasha, and issues of ketamin. So Dambi-Meyra-Glayam is from Asugya in the Gammara Nida Nuntet Ahmedbet, and it's a

10:26very confusing halachic scenario, where there's a machlocate in the Mishna about whether a woman when she sees blood as she's urinating, whether she's tmeya and tohora. And there are issues of whether she was sitting or standing. Did she see it in the toilet on the outside? And without getting into all the complications now, we definitely pascan lakula, we pascan like Rabiyoshi that she is tmehora, but even exactly what that means practically is a matter of a lot of dispute. Another main issue is the issue of hargasha. In the Gammara, there's an interesting line of shmuel in Nuntzai and Ahmedbet, Badka-Karka Olambaya-Shva-Aleha-Bumata-Aleha-Dham-Tmehora. Shmuel says that if a woman basically sits down on the ground, she checked it beforehand,

11:28there was no blood, suddenly she stands up and there is blood, she's tmehora. And the reason given is she didn't feel anything. And we learned from this a big kula, a big leniency of helchotnida, which is that if a woman doesn't have a hargasha, a certain sensation, then she's not in nida to orita, then she's not in nida on a biblical level. There is a discussion in the rishonin, what does this hargasha mean? Does this mean just that I feel I'm getting my period? Because most women do feel when they're getting their period. However, there are three ways that it's defined, three main ways in the rishonin. The Tremad-Hadeshan, as in the woman is feeling her uterus open, which most women do not feel their uterus open. The rambam, which defines the hargasha as a shaking or shuddering of her entire body.

12:30Most women, again, do not feel this. And the noda-bihuda, who describes it as a feeling of liquid flowing, which more women do feel, but even there, the main way that the noda-bihuda is understood is as flowing from leaving the uterus, which most women do not experience. So what emerges from this is the strange situation where most women today don't have a hargasha. Why does this relate to the bathroom? And the scenario we're talking about, because you do have some sort of physical sensation when you're urinating. And that sensation could potentially mask a hargasha or be some other kind of hargasha. And because of that, blood found either while urinating or immediately after could be considered problematic.

13:30And that is why there's a lot of, you know, initially I think the idea of don't look, look, don't look. We don't want you to get into a situation where you will see blood around the time of urination, have a suffaic hargasha, have this potential that it's a dough right to issue and put you in need of. The last issue is even if it's not a hargasha, there is the general issue of ketamine, which is when I see a stain of blood, how do we rule on it? Is it a certain size, amount, et cetera? So I'm going to, I'll get into that a little bit more. I just want to take a breather to let others talk about, but generally seeing the blood in the toilet bowl or on the toilet paper is mostly ruled in the category of ketamine. Okay. Thank you, Lisa. Those are very comprehensive and very helpful. I want to back up just a minute, because before we talk about additional holocaq issues with ketamine, I'd like to ask Makahana almost a primary question.

14:32What are some of the issues that matter to women such that they should care whether they look or not? There are probably some people listening who say, okay, maybe I can look more often than I do, maybe I shouldn't, but if I don't look, what, quote unquote, bad things could happen if I don't look? Why does it matter if I look or not, from a medical perspective? Sure. So the first thing I want to say is Lisa, just hearing what you shared, I feel like my heart is exploding with gratitude that these conversations are happening. You know, I feel that the way that you describe the holocaq exactly in the three main ways in the bodily tremor like that is the jargon that women need to know. Because what happens is, is someone sees a spot, they're staining, they ask a shaila, they call a rob or whoever their, their pose it is. And they're asked, well, did you wipe immediately? And she's like, yeah, why wouldn't I wipe immediately? And then they're asked, well, did you have a hard gusha?

15:33And she's like, well, like, I feel like my period's coming and I crave chocolate ice cream yesterday. So like, it's probably my period. So yeah. And her answering, yes, and yes, to both of those questions completely changes her holocaq scenario, because this jargon is not discussed in the education that we're getting as women. And that's really the point that we're getting to. So when you're asking Scott about the concept of a harga Shah, and why would it be important to look, first of all, from my experience, most people look at their toilet paper, men and women. We are curious about our bodies. We are curious what is coming out of our bodies and quite honestly, I think that curiosity is so important because we should be in tune with what's going on with our bodies. There, you know, staining could be just a result of getting used to a birth control pill. And maybe it's time to try a different birth control pill. It could be a result of other birth control methods like an IUD that maybe aren't sitting well with her or it just, you know, takes time to run its course for her body to adjust.

16:35But other situations, certain types of cancers or maybe she has hemorrhoids and she thinks it's coming from her vagina. There's so many different things that we could guess about when we look at our toilet paper. Being in our toilet paper doesn't have to come from a place of anxiety of analyzing. I need to see if there's something wrong with me. But I think it's normal human behavior to be curious about that. So when women are told to not look, I do, I want to believe that it's coming from a place of like, let's just take the pressure off. And I hope that it is and maybe it is. But I do think at the same time that women are ending up having kind of like halacha's given to them an a little bit more of a water down way and they're missing this opportunity to really understand their bodies more. So ta-gata-mi-shbhaha invites a woman to actually get to know her body when maybe that was really intimidating for her and now she's kind of been introduced to it. But then she takes one step in and then she's immediately taking a step out because she doesn't understand how to be able to be aware of her body within the halachic structure

17:38that Lisa just explained. If we know what a hargasha is, if we know that when we wipe how long after we pee because of the concepts of hargasha and peeing at the same time, how it changes everything, we can allow women to both walk in an embodied experience with their own bodies and embodied halachic experience. So the two really have to be held together so that women can hold this practice in a holistic way and integrate it into their everyday life rather than in a container. Yeah. So fascinating to me and I'm really appreciating this discussion. I'm going to throw something out there and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm a troublemaker. But we're talking about hargasha, women who know, no, women who know their bodies know. I want to say a couple things. I want to say that telling women that we don't have that connection like we used to kind of perpetuates how we've become as we've become more and more westernized. We've moved away from knowing our bodies.

18:40But I also think that knowing our bodies is very individual and very personal and also I have to say this is where I'm going to get in trouble. With all due respect to the no wada, I don't know how they knew what the hargasha feels like for women. I think only women can describe what it feels like for women. I've not heard the description other than from the rabbis that there's a big tremor. And so it makes maybe women wonder that, well, I don't have that big tremor, so maybe I'm not connected to my body. And I think that we do want to encourage women that in fact they are. For you, Malkahana, you said it. I want to chocolate ice cream last night. So if you want chocolate ice cream last night, then that's your sign. That's just something I'm throwing out there that women can learn their own bodies and their own signs so that they can kind of know themselves and also maybe even to some extent decide for themselves, what's what? You look like you want to say something. I think we both probably do.

19:41Yes. I mean, I think that there's a whole interesting question about halacha and medical reality and women's experience and reality. But I don't think if we say that most women don't experience a halachic hargasha today, it's saying to women not to be in touch with their bodies. It's possibly that Derrachepsaq, the way the Psaq has developed and based on the re-shown them in the post game and whatever was known, whether you say it was experienced or developed over the course of time and halacha is one way to look at it, that doesn't mean that a woman shouldn't be encouraged and affirmed that she often does know the way her body operates. For example, beyond hargasha and that issue, there's issues of vestot when women anticipate

20:42their periods. One of the possible vestot are a vest at hugoof. When you have this predictable way that your body anticipates the period coming, that your body will always do X before the period occurs. Now, many women know their bodies and they know when they're going to menstruate. And they could say, I have a vestot at a group because I 100% know when my period is coming. And they should definitely understand that and that is valuable. That's valuable for their relationship with their body, their medical knowledge, etc. In some cases, it does line up with the halacha and it may qualify as a vest at hugoof. For example, Ravmocha talks about their certain women who have a certain type of stain that is not metame, that is not yet put them in need of, but this stain occurs always before

21:43their period. That is a potential vest at hugoof. But there are other ones that a woman will get, like she has a certain cramping feeling, but it's always before her period, but it can occur other times for whatever technical reasons. It doesn't qualify as a vest at a group. So I think we do need to separate between just because something is not haluchically regarded a certain way. It doesn't mean that a woman is being encouraged to disconnect from her body. Okay. I know that you wanted to say something to me, but since you brought up the vestot and there's, you know, the ona benonite and there's the vest at Haflagallik. There's the days from your last period of the day of the month. There's like three days, right, from what I remember. If you have that, what you're talking about, the vest at a goof where you know your body and you know when you get your period, you still have to keep those other three. Not if you have a vest at hugoof. If you have a vest at Kavua, which means what would qualify haluchically as a very predictable

22:47method that your body produces of when you're going to get your period, when you're going to bleed and it has occurred three times in a row, then you would not need to observe the other vestot. I do remember that now. And so this is a good example of you can be kind of trusted to know your body. Those other vestos are there to kind of protect you from situations where if you're not that predictive around your body and you can still touch, you just can't have intercourse from one. I remember, it seems like a long time ago, okay, thanks, okay, Malka Khan, you're giving the refresher here. Yeah, I'm getting the refresher, okay, so Malka Khan, what are your thoughts about what I said? Okay, so a couple of things to say. I hear what you're saying about the harga shul, that there could be this sense of potential shame or telling women that someone else knows their body better than them.

23:47But I have a couple of things to say about it. I think specifically with harga shul, I think it is, it's very empowering in a sense to realize that we are disconnected from our bodies. I think that that is something that our generation really needs to internalize. That in the time that all these laws were created, women were living cyclically. They were outside, they were in the sun, they were with the moon, they were more in tune with their bodies and more in tune with nature. That is not happening today. Women are using apps to know when they're ovulating. They don't know how their cervical mucus is changing. We say it's day because I turned on all the lights. We are not connected to nature in the same way. Therefore we cannot be connected to our bodies in the same way, not because someone else knows it better, but because we are out of sync. Our circadian rhythm, we're totally out of whack here. On top of that, what's happening in our society today is our society lives in a very masculine pace, which is on a 24 hour cycle. That women are expected to wake up in the morning and have the same energy every day and then

24:50go to bed at night and do the same thing again. We do not work that way as women. As women, we work in a cyclical cycle, monthly, more or less. We work in a cycle of talatmi shbhaha. Talatmi shbhaha is actually the perfect structure to invite a woman back to living cyclically. The time that she's in Nida, she's not outwardly engaged with a lot of people naturally because energetically that's not what she wants. She's turned inward. She's doing inner work. She's literally doing internal checks, physical internal checks, but spiritual and psychological internal checks during the time that are helping our female energy of this world help us to tap back into that femininity. From the aspect of Harga Shultz being more like an insult that we don't feel them anymore, I think it's actually a wake-up call that we need to have, so there's that piece. I love in my classes that a lot of the people that tend to learn with me, I would say we're all troublemakers.

25:50That's why they're choosing to learn with me. They want to ask these questions. The exact question you ask comes up all the time, and I think that specifically with doesn't she know her body and her cravings and when her period is, yes, absolutely, but I also feel that generally speaking, as women, we're very much overthinkers. We think that we know what's coming, and this is my intuition, but it's actually my anxiety, and I find that the Harga Shultz actually being created by men, that's very, very literal, and there's like, if it checks out, it checks out, don't overthink it. I think it actually keeps us out of Nida way more than if we were going based on, oh, I had a pimple here yesterday, and I felt like this, the example I like to give when I'm teaching this to my students is, if I have a child and I feel like he's getting sick, I can tell by the smell of his breath and the glassiness and his eyes and the way he, the way he, the lunchbox that came home that wasn't fully eaten, I can just feel that he's getting sick. And I say to my husband, I'm like, look, I think he's getting sick, he's going to be home

26:53tomorrow. What does my husband say? Does he have a fever? No. So then he's not sick. Great. He's going to school. Like, that's how the Harga Shultz work, too. If it was all up to our feelings, I think women would put themselves in Nida all the time. That's really, really what I find and feel, and so I think the Harga Shultz help us invite us back to our femininity and invite us into ourselves, but we need the education to know how to get invited back into our bodies in a way that doesn't put us into need all the time. And to use these Harga Shultz, yes, created by men, to lean on so that we're not in need all the time. Because no one wants to be in need all the time. I wouldn't say it's need a jail, but no one wants to be in need of. So these structures allow us to have so much work to do, and then that's a whole other platform. And there are other problems. Right. Then they need to come to you. So that's what I would add. Fascinating the way you describe that. And I really like what you said about getting back in touch or realizing how out of touch we are. I want to add one point.

27:54And perhaps it's controversial. I don't think so. In fact, Lisa, I'd like to ask you if you agree or disagree with me, because perhaps you do disagree. But my understanding in general of medical halacha, or even any aspect of science and halacha is that sometimes we actually have to make a bit of a break. That it's not entirely the same system. There is an element of the way that halacha views the human body, which may not be in a chord with the way that a doctor in 2026 would describe the human body. Or to use a much simpler example, perhaps, the way that we talk about halacha at a bulia, the idea that a pot can absorb the flavor of something cooked into it. I'm guessing that most chemists would say that's not necessarily true, at least not with the modern pots we have. Maybe your Avamalamed even says, that's why today the worlds are different. But most people say it doesn't matter. Meaning, we have a certain system we're working within a certain set of coordinates. And the fact that scientific knowledge might be different really has very little bearing on the halacha itself, except in unusual situations and unusual circumstances. So the fact that the way that Chazal decide, or the way the Rishonim describe various ideas

28:59in Hylchotni-Dah, and there are many others as well, let's use the example of the Hargashan, the various opinions of the Rishonim, okay, maybe it's not in a chord with what we might call a Hargashan if we were creating the Halacha ourselves. And in my mind, it doesn't really matter. The same way that Halacha has a different understanding of time than a physicist. Halacha has a different understanding of the human body than a doctor, and that's not a problem. It's just a different system. And to me, therefore, it's not so much a contradiction as we're working with a different set of coordinates. Do you agree with that, Lisa, or do you have a different perspective? No, I definitely agree with that. And I think when it comes to Hargashan, we don't, and a lot of these issues with Nida, we don't exactly know. I think there definitely is something to what Makahana was saying, but it does seem women in the past were more in tune with their bodies, and also not just were they outside more in everything that she described, but they also led more predictable lives.

30:02So when it came to, let's say, Vesto, and when she was anticipating her period, and let's say, being in tune with her monthly cycle, it probably was more predictable. So there definitely is more of a match scientifically and medically to the Halacha. But like Rabbi Khan mentioned, like Scott said, they don't have to always align. Even when they don't, both can, both are true. We can acknowledge the truth in medicine and what we learn now and what we experience now, and it doesn't impact our respect, reverence, and application of the Halacha. I do want to return to one halachic point about women seeing after urinating, seeing in the bathroom. So first of all, women were told often don't look, or if they were going to look, they were also told, wait 15 seconds before you wipe.

31:04That is still the official advice, 10 to 15 seconds of many post-scheme, including reverse steam from Mahon Pooa and others. But many post-scheme, including the Nishmat post-scheme, are, say, as long as there really is a few seconds, laps of time, between when a woman finishes urinating and when a woman wipes or looks at the, you know, looks down at the toilet bowl or whatever she's going to see, then whatever she sees, if there is any blood found, it can be regarded as a ketam. It can be regarded in the rules of staining. And in terms of the rules of staining, like in, which means, by the way, it's the rules of staining, we don't have to worry about the hargosh apes. And in terms of the rules of staining, we generally are make ill on what you see in the bathroom. We regard toilet paper as not macabelle tumma, not susceptible to becoming tamay or making

32:10a woman in needa. We regard the toilet bowl that way, and we regard the toilet water, according to Rabbi Subalafsky and others, as also not macabelle tumma and connected to the toilet bowl. So what this means is, if a woman does look, she doesn't have to, you know, freak out or be concerned. And I'm really grateful that so many post-scheme kind of have moved towards as long as there's a couple of seconds in between the woman finishing urinating and the wiping or the looking to be able to rely on that sock, because it really mimics then a woman's experience. Most women, just typical to going to the bathroom, they finish going to the bathroom, and then they wipe. And like, like Makahana said earlier, they don't really think about it. Wait, did I wait? Well, if she has to think, did I wait 10 to 15 seconds, then the woman's going to get

33:14concerned. But if it's only a couple of seconds, that's the normal typical experience of women. And we can, and a woman who doesn't even remember whether she waited or whether she doesn't, we assume she did. And so the sock allows that a woman's regular experience is fine. If a woman just regularly went to the bathroom, didn't give much thought to it, wiped herself and saw something, then she doesn't have to be concerned, because what she saw was sufficient amount of time, and is on something that is not Makabel Tuma, not susceptible to becoming tummy. So it is a sock that I think reduces the anxiety. So I totally agree with you, and I am also saying that so many post-gamer are leaning more towards that, and it's such a pleasure to see. I find that it's really the educational piece. It's the foundational education piece, the first time, or the second time that women

34:16are exposed to Talat Mishbhah, that they don't know this. Once they ask a Shaila, then maybe they learn it from the post-g, but I find in the educational package that women are receiving, they don't know about this waiting and how it can totally change their halakhic situation. So I'm finding that it's such a need to kind of get back to the earlier state of when this information is going into a woman's life that this has to get in there, so that it doesn't create anxiety, and that we can turn it into an embodied experience, usually what I say is I teach this alakh exactly like you said, and then I say, okay, now so that you don't get paranoid, and you're looking at your phone, or you're counting to 15, it's a 30, whatever makes you feel safe, let's talk about it this way. Your woman who's always multitasking when you go to the bathroom, just go to the bathroom. Don't be on your phone, don't already be gathering up your toilet paper while you're peeing because you're so efficient, you want to be ready to wipe, take a minute, pee, take a deep breath in, take a minute to calm down your nervous system, then gather

35:17up your toilet paper, then you wipe, and then it's not becoming a halakhic calculation or the stress that there's like a rabbi in the bathroom with you, counting emni seconds, like that feeling that women get, you take the halakhat, you teach it to them, and then you allow them to absorb it into their life in a normal way that is regulating for their nervous system so it all comes together in harmony, and that's the missing piece, I think. Okay, I'd like to take it in a slightly different direction, and essentially move forward from what you said before, malkahana, about how the more one understands halakhat, the more empowered they are, and the more able they are to actually do more than they think, because it's not just don't look at anything, but that's not always the case, let me give you an example, for example, if a woman is not in a state of Nidah, she's not in the Sheva Nikim, she's instructed to wear colored underwear, so that in case there is a stain, it will not appear, and colored underwear, if there is a stain, we can ignore it. However, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, post can say no, you should wear white underwear, then, it doesn't make sense, because then she can potentially go into Nidah, none of

36:21the issues we talked about until now, about time and waiting and wiping are relevant there, and yet, that's maybe on a lesser level, but also a situation where a woman will not know as much about what's going on with her body, because of what halakhat demands. So, how do we approach issues like that one? We can use that one as a specific example, where it's not so easy to say, the more you know, the easier it is to actually get around it, because there I'm not so sure that it is. Well, I would say it's a combination of coming from both angles, and I think that Lisa could definitely expand upon this, because this actually is going back to the concepts of a hargasha. Whether you don't have a hargasha, there are certain criteria that can allow for an external stand without hargasha to be disregarded, colored surfaces being one of those things. So, from that angle, halakhat is saying it can be disregarded, that it's not necessarily putting you into Nidah, but from a medical perspective or understanding your body, if you're spotting, and you aren't expecting to be spotting, or it's not normal for you, this is an invitation for you to see what's going on and make sure everything's okay. Not from a place of panic or paranoia,

37:21but we can be, again, when we understand the halakhat in depth, she knows that she can look at her underwear. She now sees this stain. She knows she's not in Nidah on her own, rather than guessing and probably assuming, but it's blood, how could I not be in Nidah, I'm going to put myself in Nidah. The intensive level of understanding halakhat sets her free halakhically, and she still can be in charge of being aware of what's going on with her body and seek medical attention, or ask for help in that situation. So, expanding the halakhat is really also allowing for all of those things to be held at once, and she's in the driver's seat of that. She's in the driver's seat of that. She already knows her halakhic situation because she's aware of those halakhats, she can always refer out for help, and she now says, okay, I'm not in Nidah, and I want to know what's going out with my bodies, my body, I'm the first line of defense here, I'm going to consult with someone. Okay, and before I hand it over to Lisa, the reason that I'm asking it, though, and I say this as either a doctor nor a woman, but having a stain on colored underwear, even though, of course,

38:24that's a way of getting around the problem, but it also means you can't necessarily know what the stain looks like, you don't necessarily know the color. So, therefore, you have less information, that's the reason I'm asking about that specifically. Again, I might be mistaken in my presumptions, Lisa. So, it's interesting, there are, just like there are a lot of women who were taught, don't look when you go to the bathroom. There were a lot of women who were taught when you're not in your ship in the chem, wear black underwear. Now, if you were taught wear black underwear, then your assumption Scott would be correct. That's pretty much because it's hard to see what's coming out of your body and what's going on, and they're sort of like a, I don't want to know attitude with black, but it's literally kept in the dark. It's put in the dark. Yeah, absolutely. However, that is not holistically necessary. The reason why, after the, the Gamera says that after

39:24the beta mcdash was destroyed, women stopped wearing colors for a time, and the rabbi said you should wear colors so that women won't have issues of, of ketamine. That, so we can be make ill because we are make ill that any stain on a colored garment is not metame, a woman, it's not make a woman in need of. So, if they were being told wear black, that's not very festive, right? So, if, if this was something that we are sort of removing the morning of the beta mcdash, so women can wear colorful garments and, and not be metame, then it's clear that that could include blue and yellow and pink and, and on certain colors, you can see more in certain colors, you can see less. You know, we even go as far as to say that if a woman is wearing something cream colored, which is like not white, but it's also pretty light or a light gray, the halacha is the same.

40:28It still would not be metame her. So, the advice to wear colored garments does not have to be in contradiction with her knowing what's going on in her body. There are times, I just want to say, there are times when we do advise a woman not to look, the two times in particular I can think of, a woman or a husband, since another situation of Suffolk Hargasha is during intercourse, we often say that a man should become in the habit of cleaning up after intercourse with a colored washcloth or something, some sort of colored towel, because any blood that would be seen on his penis would make the woman in Nida, assuming that there was no other reason for him to be bleeding. Similarly, again, because bleeding during intercourse is a problem with a Suffolk Hargasha, we often advise women not to look at a diaphragm if she's using a diaphragm, she could just rinse it off.

41:32But I want to be clear that, first of all, this is advice, it's not a halacha. If a woman doesn't feel comfortable not looking and if she wants to see, that's her choice. It's just that it might make them in Nida. If that's a risk the couple wants to take, no one is forcing them, there's no halacha, don't look. And the reason that those two pieces of advice don't bother me is because a woman is going to the bathroom much, much more often, obviously, than she's removing a diaphragm. So to be told just after intercourse, don't look at a diaphragm or a husband clean up with something colored. I don't think is putting either of them at a medical risk or telling them to be sort of removed from their bodies. But if a woman is discouraged from ever looking at what's going on when she goes to the bathroom, that is much more significant. And I think more problematic

42:37potentially to tell a woman, I do want to ask Tali one question, which is the one footnote to this, I would imagine is every woman is different and every woman's psychological makeup or anxieties are different. So when a woman asks me, like, should I look when I go to the bathroom, my usual approach is what is going to create less anxiety for you? You know, if you are so if you're someone who stands a lot and you feel like every time you see something, you're going to feel like you're cheating the system or it's going to raise all this anxiety for you then and you're comfortable not looking fine, you don't have to. But if you're someone who is going to feel anxiety from not looking, like just the advice not to look creates anxiety, then go ahead. What do you think? That's really the magic answer right there. It's your teaching the whole holotic foundational perspective. You're teaching her how to navigate

43:40it and then you're saying, here you go, it's your mitzvah, it's your practice, you decide where you fit within that. And that's what allows following a set of laws created by men to allow a woman to get into is to get a seat at the table and deciding how she's practicing that that's what brings it all together. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that we need to acknowledge that the approach to teaching women today has really evolved. Whereas in the past, and I have some ta'arada mishbahab books right here on my shelf, some of which very clearly state that with every stain you ever see, you must consult a rabbi. That was the way that it was taught a few decades ago. This idea of, you know, you know the halahoud and you know, you make it work for you, that kind of empowerment, that wasn't always the way. Actually, right now, after having this conversation, I feel so hopeful. And I see it too with my daughters and stuff the way they're taught. It's just much more in their hands than it used to be. I don't know why that is. Maybe that kind of

44:46also goes along with just the level of women learning, learning Torah, and learning halahoud, learning gamara, and just, you know, where women are at, the role of women, and how they're looked upon in terms of being able to decide, just like you would decide in the kitchen because you learn halahoud kashrut. So that's a really good thing. And as to the question about anxiety, I'm sure that both of you, as is anybody who works in the field of teaching about ta'arada mishbahab, you know that anxiety is going to be a huge factor for women. There can be tremendous OCD around any sort of possible bleeding. And I do think that the approach of whatever is going to reduce your anxiety and make you feel more in control. And for some women, it may reduce their anxiety to be less in control and really not to look. And for other women, they need to have the control and to look. So I actually think, Lisa, that your question is very wise. I think you knew the answer when you asked it because that's what you're doing. And I think that that's great. I have one more just general question

45:50because we didn't touch on it. I know we're towards the end and I don't want to open up a whole thing here. But I'm just kind of curious, as you must know, women use hormones in order to feel empowered, in order to either schedule their lives or to avoid periods altogether. Two things, I want to hear you, Makahana, comment on that from your place as a natural girl. And I want to hear from you, Lisa, in terms of, are the halakhot different? Is the approach to halakhot different? If a woman uses a merena, for example, and she might actually stain around the same time every month, but not be rendered Anita, would that be different for a woman who isn't using a merena, for example? So one is a halakh question for you. One is a question about hormones for you. Makahana, you start. So it's funny that you gave the example you did because I just had this interaction in my DMs on Instagram yesterday. I was making a post about how talatimishbachai feel

46:54is this fantastic structure that allows us to tap into the different energies throughout our menstrual cycle and can allow us to lean deeper into what flows through us and use the halakhic lens to hold it all together. And a woman messaged me and she said, I have never felt more empowered erasing my period with hormonal birth control and not having to be Anita. And I said to her, I said, I'm so happy you found what works for you. And so I feel like my role as an educator, of course, I have my own biases and I don't bring them into my teaching. But I think anyone that follows my platform has particular assumptions about me and probably some of them are right. You call me natural girl. I do my best. You know, my kids definitely just ate a ton of chocolate before dinner. You know, we do our best. But I feel it's about women knowing their options, knowing what they're saying yes to and knowing what they're saying no to and then making that decision for themselves. That every course I teach when I'm teaching birth control methods, I teach all of them. All of the hormonal methods, the natural methods, the non hormonal methods, everything in between, and it's so that they can make an empowered choice. Because often when they go to the doctor,

47:58they're, you know, given this and this and then that's it. They don't even know what a diaphragm is. They don't know that their cervical mucus changes when they're ovulating when they're not. They think wetness is connected to a rousal. There's so much misinformation and that is not empowering for women. So when we fill in all of those gaps in education and women have the full picture and then they can choose where they want to be. My biases have nothing to do with that. I want her to know where she fits in the birth control world, where she fits in the whole of her world. If she's happy with what she's doing and that makes her empowered then fantastic. I did my job. I helped her find her voice within the world of women's health and how to hold. Right. Thank you. I think very well and the same way there are a lot of women who were lacking halachic knowledge and then they have all these questions. I find that there are a lot of women lacking medical knowledge. I think you are more empowered if you can make those choices and sometimes women start a pill or they

49:01start the marana. They don't even understand fully the way it works, what some of the side effects are, medical side effects, halachic ones, etc. So the more information that we can give women and I think there's a lot more that's one of the good things about social media actually is it is spreading a lot more information and giving people more access, which is great. In terms of that halachic piece, if I understood your question correctly, a woman who's not on hormones likely is going to get her menstrual cycle, which will put her Anita. Most women will get a full flow if they're not on hormones. If they are on marana or if they're on any sort of like low estrogen pill, there is the potential that it it kind of keeps your uterine lining very thin. So many women, they may spot and they may have occasional bleeding, but they won't necessarily get a full flow

50:02every month. Most post scheme agree that if a woman is not getting a flow, that if she's just having minimal staining, like a little bit here, a little bit there when she goes to the bathroom or when she looks down at her at her underwear, then it will not make her Anita and there are some women that's a big factor for them. They will choose these birth controls, like Malka Hanna said, in order to avoid becoming Anita. It's not a guarantee. Some women go on the marana and they do get a full flow. And there are certain post scheme, like if you have a specific postache, you want to ask because there are a couple who say that if you bleed monthly on the marana, even if it's a much lower amount, almost more like staining, but if it's very regular and it happens at the

51:04exact same time each month, that would put you in Anita. That's not the way the Nishmont post scheme has been, but it is good to be aware of. How we have to rename this to don't ask, don't tell. So Lisa, as a final question, I'm really throwing it out to both of you right now. I want to follow up with what you just said in terms of how now it's so important, as it always is, that a woman understands the medical knowledge and the medical reality as much as understanding the halachic reality, which leads to one of the great advances of our time. We've been talking about the fact that Lisa, you exemplify this, as a U.S. at Halacha, that now women are involved in the halachic process, such a welcome and crucial aspect of the halachic reality today. A second one is that I believe, at least in some corners, more rabbis and more Yasut Halacha, more halachic advisors in general, have greater understanding of medical and psychological issues, as an example of Yoni Rhodes and Sui, who has been on this podcast, started an organization, Maglaine Fesh, that deals with mental health and halacha. So for people listening, for whom this all resonates, and they want to ask somebody,

52:10whether it's a U.S. at Halacha or a rabbi, but they want to make sure that that person has the requisite knowledge, not just of Shulchanara and the Ramah, but also of the medical realities, so that they can be well versed in this. What advice would you give to somebody? How do you choose a post-sake, or even just someone to ask these questions to, and what kind of questions should a person ask when deciding to whom to address these questions? That's a good question. First of all, just to plug a little bit for Yoatsoat and for Nishmat, one of the most amazing things that Nishmat does and has done recently, they always trained Yoatsoat in some medical, psychological training during the two years that you studied to be a Yoatsoat halacha, and in yearly professional but now we also have a WhatsApp where we are on a group with medical professionals, so that any question we get, that we don't feel knowledgeable enough in, and we don't understand

53:12the medical knowledge we can ask any time of day, and these medical professionals are employed by Nishmat in order to be there for us, to be a constant resource, which is really wonderful. Okay, but besides Yoatsoat halacha, at first of all, if you're choosing a real post-sake, you hopefully know that person well, and it's someone who kind of represents your worldview and is broad, not only in the expanse of their halacha knowledge, but also in who they talk to in terms of professionals of any kind business, psychological, medical, whatever areas intersect with halacha. And if you're not sure, I think that when we are asking halacha questions, we should do a good job of advocating for ourselves. So if we are coming and there is a psychological

54:13component, then we should say to the rub that we're asking, I think there is a psychological issue here, you know, it would you be able to speak to a therapist, would you be able to speak to a psychiatrist about it when answering the question? It's not easy to always advocate for ourselves, but I think it's important. Okay, thank you, Malka Khan, any final words on this? I would just make a small plug for Nishmat's book, Nishmat Habayet, which I think is a fabulous book. You can't speak to a book, but it's done a lot of this research for you, really bringing in women's reproductive health and halachic responses to female issues. So it's a fantastic resource that I think women should have in their homes. And the self-advocacy is a huge part. Sometimes it takes time to find the right halachic authority to support you, just because someone as you're robbed doesn't mean that they have smithaar and death understanding of taaratsamishbacha. So I encourage women to ask certain questions to their mentors to find out if they are the right

55:16address to be well versed in halacha and to have the right questions to ask their medical professionals also, you know, who maybe aren't asking about family history before prescribing birth control. A woman needs to know, unfortunately, what to bring up when she's talking to a robber, she's talking to her doctor so she can advocate for herself. But again, it's still driving home that message that she is in the driver's seat, which can be a burden and the biggest empowerment of a woman can experience. Well, it's been such an honor hosting both of you. So let me thank you on behalf of Tali, Malka Khan, Ami Khai, and Lisa Stephamis. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Remember to subscribe to the podcast, go to www.intubidudism.com, join the Itamidudism community on Facebook, and we'll see you next time. Bye.