708: Primary, Tertiary, and Third Cousin

0:00Back from the beach. Oh, yes, because school started this week, right? Yeah. How's that going? Fine He says with zero enthusiasm Who okay who besides most parents is Excited for school to start yeah, no, that's fair. Yeah teachers generally aren't the kids sure aren't I mean and I understand as a parent I understand like get out of the house get back to school like that's that's a perfectly valid thing Until I started loving summer for other reasons and now like no the summer is over Yeah, at least you don't have to go to school. I have to drive every morning towards the school I mean it's but you don't have to attend it I feel like this is subverlining here. Well, we're at the stage of parenting where A good degree of involvement with keeping homework happening is required. Oh, where does that come from Marco? It's an app for that I think We are indeed in September which means it is childhood cancer awareness month

1:03We are talking of course about raising money for st. Jude Children's Research Hospital You can go to stt.org slash atp stjud.org slash atp To donate some amount of money to the wonderful wonderful wonderful people at st. Jude Children's Research Hospital St. Jude has made it their mission for no child to die in the dawn of life They don't want any children to pass away because of cancer and other you know really really terrible diseases Did you know that an estimated 400,000 children worldwide get cancer each year when st. Jude opened in 1962 Childhood cancer was largely considered incurable since then st. Jude has helped push the overall survival rate in the United States from 20% To more than 80% and st. Jude won't stop until no child dies from cancer Sure, occurring child and aunt cancer is a tremendous undertaking st. Jude needs your help The generosity of donors everywhere including our wonderful wonderful wonderful ATP listeners It supports cutting-edge research that saves lives and shares the families never receive a bill from st. Jude for treatment travel housing or food

2:08Every child deserves a chance to live their best life to live any life and celebrate every moment when you support st. Jude You can help make cures possible for kids with cancer together You and me listeners we can save more lives We had a person right into ATP. They did not write in anonymously, but I'm going to read their feedback anonymously And I've sanitized it ever so slightly This person wrote this is an honest to god email that we the three of us got at ATP this person wrote Last December we got the awful news that no family wants to hear our son was diagnosed with diffuse B cell non-Hodgkin's lymphoma We live well outside the Memphis area So we went to our local pediatric hospital We received amazing care including the great news early on that the chemotherapy regimen that would treat our son Has been in place for the last 15 years after a very successful trial where marko st. Jude children's race was correct The anonymous person continues although the journey was brutal through gods grace and the proven treatment plan our son was declared cancer free In May of this year He's back in school and getting stronger every day

3:10That is an honest to goodness real-life story from a fellow listener to this very program So if you want to support things like this if you want to save children's lives Please give a dollar five dollars ten dollars Whatever you can give to st. Jude at st. Jude dot org st. J U D E dot org slash ATP now marko We have some breaking wonderful news from earlier today. Can you tell us about this please as I discussed last episode The marko offset previously was It the the suggested minimum donation for our listeners for st. Jude that you would basically take the the amount over The starting MSRP of the new iPhone and maybe Apple watch and whatever that you possibly ordered or about to order or are planning to order During this wonderful iPhone event season The difference between the base price and what you actually paid after all the taxes and add-ons and cases and apple cares and everything else Storage upgrades all that stuff that was your suggested minimum donation to st. Jude and last episode I introduced new levels two and three to the marko offset level two was

4:15You also add on to that whatever you spent on AI this month because if there's one thing that we need some kind of consumer absolution from Besides rampant consumerism buying new phones to replace phones that work. It's AI So if you contribute an equal amount that you contributed to AI this month as part of your marko offset You are absolved from I probably shouldn't be guaranteeing that I probably not but that's okay From from the from the guilt of using AI If you want even more absolution level three is instead of contributing what you spent an AI this month Contribute what you spent on AI this year That is level three of the marko offset in addition to the iPhone Offset that was already there now listener brands and beckerer Has a site called the marko offset calm where Brandon has basically made a calculator for this and Past years well We're never going to say the marko offset calculator is live for 2026 includes the new levels mentioned last week

5:18So it includes calculation for your your AI use for levels two and three So thank you to Brendan Beckerer and please everyone consider contributing to st. Jude in this way If you can it really makes a difference John anything dad. I do not give to st. Jude It's easy and just make a part of your annual giving yep To any degree any amount that you can one last time st. Jude. Org slash ATP All right, so we are skipping follow up as is as per the rules of the accidental tech podcast We are going to jump straight into today. Well the rules of this podcast is does not begin with the the oh my god Can I get this kind of get anybody on this? The last time you a market argue with me that there was a done in front of the name of the podcast I swear to you there is not wait. I never argued that it was only ever Casey. I think it was you It was definitely not no there is no thought there is no there never has never been a thought cut this out This is for like people only please no I'm not doing it. I'm just staying in and I put by but like can we get agreement? So I'm not taking crazy pills. There's no done in front of the name of our podcast

6:18I know sometimes grammatically it makes sense to put the there and we do it and blah blah blah But please so wait so what was I supposed to do to the rules of accidental tech podcasts? That makes no sense or you can say ATP you can always say Oh You're killing me next thing you're gonna tell me is that it's not the iPhone. It's just iPhone Anyway, so that's a case where we all disagree with apples like the the gif gif It's the same thing when we disagree with the gridter Hi mom, what can I tell you the apples the one who's saying that like anyway whatever I'm saying this is what we do with our podcast apple can decide their rules for their phone Are we kidding or those rules because we didn't make the iPhone? I'm not sure I'm not sure we have unity on our own rules, but that's neither here nor there are we should but we don't We should never been in the What I think it's what's what's most Damning for your case here Casey is that there's no the in the acronym. It's not TATP There's no the in the show artwork in the title in the feeds like there's it never appeared anywhere Well, I'm not saying that it was not an uppercase THE it was a lower case THE This is silly we got to move on I want to I want to go to bed before tomorrow all right

7:20So we have an apple event today and it started with this very cinematic opening scene with everyone telling like Oh, this is how you should start something off in a dramatic way And it wasn't particularly relevant like it was fine and interesting I suppose but I don't know I didn't I don't really get why we did that but it wasn't bad Well my first thought It was that apple may have too much money because like these were scenes from like like full budget scenes from You know movies of the genres that they were met granted they were like three second scenes But it was different setups different locations different actors different just like How much money do you have to do all these different setups for like a three-minute as you note pointless not particularly related to technology entry Intra anyway, it was blessedly short. It was extremely well done man. They have a lot of money I mean, but they didn't spend a lot of it on writers. Oh, yeah, I mean yes It's not gonna like I think maybe they're flexing like hey, you know, we do we have a premium television service right now And we we fund a lot of really good television programs so they have access to to all that talent or whatever

8:24But who knows maybe there's no overlap but just a lot of money and I have to say and they make this point in the thing that you know All this was shot on iPhone blah blah blah. I thought this presentation. I thought it looked really good I mean, that's not up to the iPhone right is just up to the you know the direction and the lighting and you know The setups and blah blah blah but I thought everything in this presentation looked even better than usual, which is a high bar Yeah, then we got Tim at the very end saying no no no no no no no no no or well like oh here's how you start the thing you're in California You follow a car into a tunnel which is a tunnel leading to apple park blah blah blah And then eventually see a super extreme close up and it says no no no It's not me that's your guy that's your opener and then we get John turnis I thought if you were going to do a passing of the torch which I'm not sure that it was necessary But if you're going to do it I personally felt like this was a very tasteful very quick easy way to do it I didn't mean we're gonna do it at all. I thought it would just be like look We all it's not like it's a surprise. This has been a long time coming it happened blah blah blah I was surprised it was in there at all when I heard his voice. I was surprised and I will say that whoever directed this

9:29Actually got the first the closest thing to a genuine performance of a motion from Tim Cook with his little line of like no no no no not me that's your guy I don't think he's ever said anything with as much emotion as he said his one line here I'm not gonna mostly chuckle it up to the fact that the director did enough takes to say no We're not taking that one Tim you're gonna do it one more time and you're gonna have actual feeling And he did it either that or he's like, you know he's got senioritis, right? And so he's like I'm out of here. I finally I can let a tiny amount of emotion show in an apple video and he did for three seconds Yeah, I thought it was it was a very nice Very apple way to do the handoff. It's like a great a little bit Overproduced a little bit still did a little bit content free, but makes you feel slightly good It was the perfect like you know Tim Cook and and you know going into You know turn us being there and having his first Addressed to the audience as CEO and that was also like it was perfect

10:34Transitional Tim Cook era style of like you know turn us walked he you see turn us walking around apple park for a few minutes saying things Saying what I have no idea like all of the words he said just sounded vaguely good and meant nothing But it was exactly what it needed to be it was here. Here's the new guy It was handed. I thought you know Tim passed the baton to John turnus and Here's the new guy and he's doing don't worry everybody exactly what everyone expects He he's also like I thought turnus was like a little bit stilted You know he's he's new to this you can tell that he doesn't have as much practice doing this as Tim did and he will I'm sure you know get a little smoother with time But it's like a little bit stilted a little bit tight and forced And a lot content free in that opening address, but This is turnus doing Tim Cook's Thing and eventually I hope turnus will start doing his own thing That's most likely what's going to happen

11:35But he has to kind of like you know develop into that in in the public persona and in you know his his own role here You know in the same way that like like the very first season of the office US tried to be like the office UK and it was weird and kind of bad actually was very bad at first You know like you know parks and rec first tried to be the office And it was also weird and bad until it kind of found its own style. Yeah, I think this is like this is turnus Taking on the Tim Cook style and it's weird and it's kind of maybe it's not as bad as the office US season one But I'm looking forward to seeing what turnus a style grows into as he as he kind of gets his own style here Because this wasn't it what we saw here was just turnus and a Tim Cook outfit basically, but like I want to see like How this goes over time? As my note on this section I just said that I thought the the director whoever got a And almost a genuine performance out of Tim Cook where he expressed a tiny bit of emotion for fraction of a second

12:38But what he also did was performed Comfort enthusiasm and gusto that Overshadowed turnus because he does this little intro and he gives us a little bit of emotion You're like Tim. I didn't even know you could raise your voice in that way and express emotion with your voice on an apple video I couldn't even believe it and he's writing your face and he's loud and he's just so expressive and then they cut well It's all relative. I mean so expressive for Tim Cook right But still and then they cut to turnus who first of all I think his audio equalization was messed up He's like me and that his voice just recorded straight sounds terrible So it needs a lot of help to not sound awful He just sounded like muted like he was talking from inside of a paper bag and he was just like Like Tim just overpowered him and basically saying see I'm out of here remember me the dynamic figure often seen crushing ice and scaling walls like no, but like right now It seems like you're that guy and then turnus is just this little Lulting flower now. I do think in the rest of the keynote when he got to do more normal turnus things

13:39That he felt much more comfortable. So I think you did a fine job But this this is my know in this thing. It makes it seem like Tim Cook was this an amazing figure Which we know he wasn't he was very you know very very state and boring and just did not express anything And it makes turnus seem a little bit limp But you know this I like as if for the rest of the video I think he just he was just doing his normal turnus stuff that he always does in these videos and he was pretty good at it I thought on the whole turnus did a good job. Yes, he still did. Yes. He's got a Tim Cook suit on But in the grand scheme of things. I thought he did pretty darn well I he also spent a little time in this opening montage if you will maybe not montage but this opening segment Talking about kind of his reestablishing Maybe his maybe apples values kind of the corporate values the hardware values software values I don't know that it was necessary But I don't necessarily begrudged it. I think it was reasonably quick It was reasonable to kind of set the tone for here's how my Ten years going to be at Apple. I thought it was pretty good

14:40Then they start talking over he starts talking about the intelligent personal hub which is what's going to be at the center of everything They do I don't know John. What do you think that intelligent personal hub might be? I mean, so there was two parts this one was like You know, we don't collect your stuff and sell it or whatever which is fine But they do show us a lot more ads than usual But anyway Which is fine like basically saying we don't have the same business models other companies And then the other part of this little section was essentially a preemptive shot Preemptive shot over the bow of open AI hardware right it was basically saying um You know Intelligence blah blah blah your info blah blah blah part receive blah blah blah and how will you access that information? What would you need something that's always with you and that has the power to do these things? Whatever and it's like this whole big giant construction. It's like and you know, I guess what the answer is the iPhone Not anything anywhere else is making like not appendent not a donut not anything like the answer is the iPhone like wow Amazing Apple So you're telling me that the product you already make is actually the ideal device for you

15:41And I'm not saying they're wrong like they're probably right right but that was the point they were making Hey other people are making all sorts of AI stuff But actually the phone is the right answer and we have the best phone and you know And it's totally preemptive because there's no there's actually no competing product That is like a threat to the iPhone at this point But open AI sure wants there to be one So that was the segment of the thing which is like open AI stay away the phones where it's at all right So yeah, so you know John turn us took a few shots across Google's bow and said things like you know Others see your your info as data to collect and to store Apple intelligence runs on device whenever it can Personal intelligence that's actually personal iPhone brings powerful AI capabilities together with your personal context on a device That you have with you all the time so we're establishing. Okay. Here's why the iPhone is important I'm sorry John. Here's why iPhone is important. No, that's what Apple does We do all of the opposite just like the gift Jeff person remember he tells us to say Jeff But we all disagree and say gif so that's the Apple situation. It's the George Lucas clause sometimes the creator is wrong Yep Anyway, so yeah, we start with the iPhone 18 pro in pro max

16:44It's got the a20 pro the highlighted features a variable aperture main camera It's color matched aluminum and back glass. So if you think about the iPhone's 17 pro There's that inset glass section where you would plug or or snap on like a mag say thing And that's a slightly different color than the rest of the frame of the phone And now they're color matched between the glass and the aluminum That's what they say in the thing with the color matching but we talked about this when the 17 pro came out It's not like the 17 pro wasn't color matched the problem was there was a textured difference So I'd a certain angle on the light exactly match the color of the aluminum But if you tilted it just off of that angle then it didn't match it anymore So I know what they're saying like they're just think it's color match now will look the same in more lighting conditions But I think all they did was change the service treatment so that the scattering effect is similar And so it looks like the same color in more conditions So I'll see when I get mine to you know tilt it to see if I can get it to change color or whatever But that's that's the upshot here I don't think the orange one wasn't color matched it was just it was only color match it like one tiny angle

17:47Of incident light and every place also look different that may be true But I don't think I've ever looked at either Aaron's phone or mine and thought oh that is perfectly matched You I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't recall having seen it just gotta find like the 0.05 degrees where it is Perfectly matched I'm twirling mine around now like there is a point. It's just it's a very small It's very narrow if you're not exactly on that angle it doesn't match anymore And that's I think it's just because it's not like they don't know how to match colors. It would sit the service treatment In any case that we've got four colors. We've got black silver glacier which actually looks really good to me It's like a very light blue almost white and burgundy which as a Virginia Tech Hoki I should probably buy that one if I do end up buying an 18 pro But I don't know I think the glacier looks really good But burgundy is not deep cherry which everyone was like oh it's gonna be deep cherry or whatever And not only is it not called deep cherry because obviously the names are difficult to leak even though the leaks basically got the color right I think it is Less deep cherry than deep cherry would have been like it is lighter than I thought it would be in apples publicity shots It is not as deep and dark as a lot of the spy shots were

18:52It's a little bit like sort of more metallicy brighter and I think maybe not as strong as the deep cherry ones that I saw in the spy shots But maybe also less offensive to people my wife loves the color. She's this wonderful favorite color She's not getting this phone, but she actually does like that color So there's one vote for somebody liking the color. I think these colors are a lot more muted than the orange was like Definitely based on all the leaks and everything I was at least expecting the glacier the the light blue color I was expecting that to be a little more saturated But like as I'm watching everyone's YouTube hands-on videos and stuff from the hands-on area like I'm seeing these colors and kind of as close to a realistic View as I as I can at this moment they all look kind of Restrained the burgundy was a lot more restrained than I thought it would be the the blue is you know that as well They brought back black because everyone wished there was black on the 17 line And of course silver because some people like to make no choice But But ultimately like I think it says a lot about

19:53The success of the color of the iphone 17 pro with the orange that like They led the introduction of the of the new pro iPhone. They led it with the colors That was the very first thing they showed us and talked about about the new iphone pro which if you look like before the 17 pro with the orange one the colors of the pro line Were like almost an apology at the end of the pro segment that they would have like They would talk about everything else first the chip the camera the screen all this time and then at the very end It's available in four colors. They're all different shades of gray good look And this is like wow we made people care about colors with the orange phone Turns out people like pro phone colors. It was such a big hit We're gonna lead with that this time that I think says a lot Yeah, I agree. I just wish that the colors were a little more bold I think that would have been nicer. Well, and I think ultimately that it's gonna go in cycles If you look at how apple did colors on the the non pro equipment over the years that that's always had you know much better color options

20:57um They also kind of went in waves of vibrance I would say colors are fashion iPhones are fashion You know we we're gonna see later made to the apple watch section. There's a lot of like Fashion influence of the colors of the watches going on right now Last year they did they made a splash with the orange one But not every year is gonna have like a big vibrant splashy color This year they did I'm sure it through lots of research and lots of analysis of trends around the world They decided that colors this year are gonna be a little bit more restrained but a little bit different And it's not a new orange. It's two totally different colors Um, and I think that's the pattern I would expect to see I just I hope that the Bold orange was not like a one-off that we're never gonna see again I because you can already see they with this color line They're going a little bit safer like these don't seem as risky They definitely seem like they're like stepping back into their their comfort zone which in this case is a very bad thing So I'm hoping they remain uncomfortable and they somebody kicks them back out of their comfort zone next year

22:02And we get you know some kind of you know a little bit more Striking color next year. I think the burgundy is just as saturated as the orange Orange is just a brighter color than burgundy burgundy is by its nature a darker color But it is at least saturated just like the black is saturated the silver and the glacier are the typical pale ones that we always have But like yeah that burgundy I mean that is that is a saturated burgundy as the orange was is just burgundy is not as bold to color as orange That's the bottom line. I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily call it saturated But the burgundy at least is is a strong color and I like I like it for that even though it's not really my thing It is like a statement. It is a strong color. It's not but it's just it's not as it's not as vibrant as the orange But um but it is it is at least an opinion whereas you know They went through when they were going through all the different shades of gray in the in the non sexy way It was all just like we're gonna have as little opinion as possible like like last year like the iPhone air colors Where the iPhone air came in three shades of very very close to white and black and it was like and you look at the three shades of white You're like why are these even different colors?

23:03You know that was like we're afraid to make any statement whatsoever This is not like that. This is this is making a statement You know this year the statement it's making is a little bit more you know low-key than last year's color Yeah, the 18 pro and pro max are the same size of 17 pro and pro max the pro is five grams heavier the pro max 16 grams heavier They also allegedly per mac rumors have 12 gigs of rams same as the 17 pro in pro max By the way 16 grams heavier on the max is a lot Well, it's all battery. There was one moment in the video where somebody said Uh and blah blah blah something something the smaller size of the 18 pro was like Did they make the 18 pro smaller? No, they meant compared to the the folding phone which we'll get to in a little bit But like I was excited for one moment, but they're literally exactly the same size Although they didn't give measurements on the what we also must have be the larger camera plateau That ball really never gives that type of measurement. So we'll see Uh, when we see more videos about it

24:03Then they made uh, uh, they did a little bit of talking about apple intelligence and they made kind of an off-handed point Well, maybe not off-handed. They highlighted it But one way or another they said two and a half billion Siri requests per day Somebody pointed out if you get who I saw this that posted this But that would that would probably be one and a quarter billion for if it actually worked the first time to dumps Um, and then they noted or I noted that on the little slide that they put up They said that the they support or will support Chinese traditional and simplified I believe is what it said But interestingly apple intelligence is not available in China or at least won't be initially anyhow Well those languages are spoken in different places too. No, no, I know But it's still struck me as striking for lack of a better word I've been doing something where they have to use like a one of uh, like some China AI model instead of using the ones that they have like this is a whole big deal with how they're gonna Get apple intelligence to chime in and it involves using entirely different tech stack As usual. Yeah They also noted that there will be some server-side AI limits which we've heard about in the past They said increased access will be it will be available in most iCloud plus plain. They keep they keep talking about this

25:07They've said it a few times that every time they say it they're like hand wave hand wave all right Say By the way, did you see that the they extended the free satellite sos? I did for the iPhone 14 15 and 16 again They can that can down the road. I mean, hey, that's what you want right? It's free. Yeah. Yeah I mean, I believe like I know I said back then like they're probably just never gonna let that expire because why like Why would they ever let this emergency life saving thing on an iPhone expire like because one person dies from that And that's a disaster like they would never any million years do it whereas they would love to keep that going forever For free for every iPhone that supports it that way they can eventually say things like this person's life was saved by this feature Like they would much rather do that So as long as the satellite sos stuff is not costing Apple a huge amount of money, which it probably isn't Just by volume I'm sure it's fine. I don't know I was we just last time I think there are ways to make it so it's free for everybody to use But then like after it saves your life charge your money and I don't put it past them to figure out how to do that

26:13We are sponsored with this episode by 11 labs and there are 11 agents platform now when I've had to call a customer phone number You know you go through the phone tree that's really you know this primitive thing you know press for for billing You know you hear their artificial voices you have to wait on hold you have to enter the same information over and over again or tell the same information to agents over and over again 11 labs has this product called 11 agents and this is made to solve this problem And I have it I actually can understand the complexity on the business side at the restaurant I also have a very simple phone system by you know a different provider and it's it's just so primitive I can't do any of this cool stuff. So 11 lab specializes in making it good for businesses and for customers There are platform for AI voice and chat agents that actually listen understand and resolve your customers issues They can look up things like your account they can process requests and they can hand off to people when needed This helps create better experience of customers while letting your call center and support teams focus on the issues It actually need a person and it's made by 11 labs

27:13This is an AI research and product company known for their realistic voice and audio models with over 70 languages supported So if you've heard really good AI voices that actually sound expressive and natural There's actually a good chance it was made by 11 labs And this is built for your enterprise a scale they have more than 10 million conversations per week SLC2, HIPAA and PCI certifications, regional data residency And even forward to play engineers who can work alongside your team to get agents into production So if you run a business or handle customer operations across support sales or marketing You can start with a demo at 11 labs.io slash ATP See how 11 agents can fit into your workflows and help build experiences that your customers will actually love 11 labs.io slash ATP. That's 11 spelled out ELEVN L-A-B-S dot I-O slash ATP Thanks to 11 labs and 11 agents for sponsoring our show All right, let's talk about performance. They talk about the a-20 pro. I'll try to run through this quickly

28:17It is a two nanometer process which we expected a six core CPU with two new super cores which they specifically quoted or said are desktop class Four new efficiency cores allegedly 20% faster a seven core GPU with 40% faster graphics performance Neural accelerators which mind you are different than the neural engine The neural excelerators are two times faster and floating point math the It has twice the neural engine with 32 total cores and two times the compute power 50% increase in memory bandwidth which I reckon we'll make a big deal Custom packaging inspired by the M series they said with the silicon die side-by-side with memory The CPU is connected directly to the vapor chamber now for quote dramatically improved thermal performance What do we call that Casey? That's a chiplet right now you watch the meme video. I try to educate you on your history, but no Sorry, it's Christian side ram Oh, what? Remember the Christian side you've already forgotten it's three episodes ago. Give me that Christian side ram That's what's inspired by the M series of if you look at an M series s.o.c

29:20They have ram next to the s.o.c And now the iPhone does too which as we said in the past episode when we were talking about the rumor That means that the ram is not on top of the s.o.c And so you're not trying to cool down a sandwich of ram and s.o.c Instead you've got the s.o.c and right next to it is the ram and you can put the heat Disappearing things right up against the ram and most importantly right up against the s.o.c And like the m6 they doubled the neural engines So that's a thing now they're just you know, we're gonna have two of those when once we had one Because I guess it pays dividends They didn't talk too much about the cores, but they both had new it's a new supercore It's a new efficiency core So I guess these are the better efficiency cores and maybe the same supercores from the m6 But we'll find that out when people start slicing these chips open Yeah, it does seem like there's a lot of common elements here between the a20 pro and the m6 Which we would expect like that is what they usually do But it seems like the phone chips keep getting closer to the desktop chips Well, a simple thing like they used to do the phone chips would have the cores first and the m series would have them later So the phone would come out and then like the current m series would not have the same

30:23That's true I wonder if they're in sync now or anyway the schedules are all weird so we don't know But they the way app or first everything new supercores and new efficiency cores I just can't keep track with anymore, but we'll find out when people Again slice the tops off these chips and start looking at the Silicon on the actual chips and then we'll figure out which cores which All right, they have much better thermal design like we were talking about The vapor chamber has three times the surface area versus the 17 pro It has 80% recycled stainless steel. It has nano twin copper material to move heat away from the display It's a 40% game versus the 17 pro in twice as good as the 16 pro and older I can tell you that having been to a football game will weekend before last I think it was anyway It doesn't matter having been to a football game where I'm outside for a long time in the direct sun I that is like my stress test for thermals on the iPhone and Where the I think the 15 certainly the 14 was like this where After getting in the direct sun for more than a few minutes The screen got so dim and dark that you could literally barely read it or least I could

31:28The 17 pro definitely dims itself, but never to the point that it's difficult to read And allegedly the 18 pro is going to be even better So if you're one of those people like me that has had real hard had a real hard time Using your phone and direct sunlight you should really consider the iPhone 18 pro because I think it'll be way way better Yeah, if you look at the pictures of it like the whole the whole back of the phone It's just one giant vapor chamber instead of like oh, we put a little vapor tender near where the chips are No, it's like it's just covers the whole back of the phone and then the whatever the nano twin copper material now I don't know if pass phones Also had some kind of heat dissipating thing behind the entire screen But if they did apple had never touted it before and so I have lots of hope that this will help Specifically with the situation where you were talking about Casey where you have a phone out in the sunlight and sun is going through The screen and bouncing around there a little greenhouse effect and heating things up because just from the direct sunlight on the screen Now the entire screen has essentially he dissipating thing behind the whole screen and hopefully that is pulling heat out of there And into the place where the vapor chamberler can deal with it

32:29So I have high hopes for the cooling capacity of this phone based on the pictures they showed Yeah, and that's the kind of thing like like Casey was just saying like Good thermals in a phone Can just make such a difference in everyday capabilities and annoyances and limitations And this is what like part of what I was complaining about last episode about the iPhone air Is it the iPhone air kind of with the other direction it has terrible thermals But the iPhone 17 pro has great thermals thanks to the vapor chamber compared to the 16 pro and now they've done an even bigger step in that same direction The iPhone 18 pro now allegedly if this is all correct which probably is has even better thermals than the 17 pro did it was already very good So this should help a lot with things like you know having the thing work in the sun Working in cars like in the summertime And you know all the way up to things like sustain gaming performance which you know I'm not really that kind of gamer on my phone But a lot of people do that kind of thing and it does matter a lot All right the iPhone 18 pro and pro max have the n1 which is wifi 7 and bluetooth 6

33:32Additionally according to mac rumors and this is a very I'm sketchy was the word that came to mind. That's a bit dramatic But a very unclear situation I think I think I believe they're sourcing because they're basically going off of like the bands like the the the Wi-Fi or not Wi-Fi the cellular bands that are supported by the chips And there is a difference during the 18 pro and the 18 pro max and so I think this is plausible So they are saying that the 18 pro has the C2 cellular chip at the 18 pro max does not and we'll put a link in the show notes to that With regard to the battery They're saying in short a whole heck of a lot better and also you can get half a charge in 15 minutes via a wire And five minutes of wired charging gives you six hours of video playback which is really darn impressive Uh, then we got some gaming from kyan drantz. I went to sleep for a little bit But then we talked about the camera still with kyan We as I mentioned earlier get variable aperture. So there's six laser cut blades each of which is thinner than a human hair They made their own specialized polymer composite. There's a new rotor mechanism a custom design lens

34:37And it's automatic based on the scene and in the dark you should get up to 50% more light night mode will give you faster capture I've seen a couple of different uh People cite different f-stop numbers and the one that seems most consistent is f1.8 But I've seen 1.4 something in other way. Yeah, they showed some sample shots that are 1.4 I mean the f numbers are all weird because everything about this camera is tiny the sensor is tiny The lens is tiny the distance reading the lens in the sensor is tiny like so I don't know like all these uh Measurements that have to do photography all have all sorts of weird historical reasons for why they are what they are And it's hard to translate them directly to a phone situation But you just have to judge from you know comparing to other iPhones which have been roughly the same size That's where you can get an idea of the measurements of this but the important part is yeah That has an actual mechanical aperture which means the hole that lets lighten can change size from a big hole to a smaller hole That's a thing that is useful in photography every other iPhone up to this point has had different apertures on the different cameras Sometimes but each individual circle on the back of your phone had a fixed aperture

35:41Which meant the hole to let the light in to hit the sensor was always the same size on each one of those circles The circles could be different from each other But it never changed size and real cameras have an aperture on them that can change size and now so does One of the cameras on the iPhone 18 Pro and Pro Max Yeah, now I think there's this is going to probably be a fairly small deal not as not as big of a deal as you think Because of its variability, but so the the four apertures that it supports are f1.48 1.8 2.8 4.0 The outgoing iPhone 17 Pro camera has a fixed aperture of 1.78 So this one 1.48 is it's widest open which means if the sensor has remained the same size which it probably has That means the 18 Pro camera can let it more light when it's wide open and Most of the time that's going to be what it's doing like most most people shooting most of the time Are generally probably going to be shooting with the lens wide open unless you're trying to achieve certain effects

36:42Which most people aren't which is why I'm kind of surprised they even put this in here at all But anyway, well at the point they made with the narrow aperture is true because that annoys me with my current phone camera If you have a bunch of people who are varying distances from the camera But the close one is close to you. It's hard to get them all in focus with the fixed aperture And so being able to narrow it on a sunny day That's the picture they show like people on a staircase And it's like look the far away person's face is also kind of in focus And so is the close-up person because they narrowed it to f4 or whatever That's so that is true that but but I think what what I think might be a little bit misleading about this If for people who are thinking about it that way is that on a very very small sensor like this f1.48 does not mean the same thing as f1.4 on your SLR lens like it does not mean the same thing at all It's it's much more I don't I don't know the math right at the time I don't know what the equivalent is but they're all wildly different than you think But still one point out is one point eight is bigger than four They're just not the same as that would be on a real camera right on the other thing to keep in mind here is that Again, like because of the light gathering abilities of these sensors and how tiny they are

37:48Most of the time again most of the time the the phone is going to run it at the widest open aperture anyway So if you want that effect of having a lot more depth of field than you even normally would have You're going to have to have a lot of light or have it be doing a lot of noise reduction and blurring of the picture afterwards So that it's always a trade off finally I would point out that the the aperture blades that they showed off are Few in number and straight Compared to any SLR lens that's worth it. You're not getting good bokeh bubbles right so when the iris of a good SLR lens Contracts it tries to make the hole in the middle as close to a circle as it can now you see how it works in the video How it has these blades that kind of slide in So when you know real cameras like when they design these blades they usually have at least eight of them This you know, there's only six in this and they make the blades curved so that as they squish in it is closer to a circle shape And the the nicer the lens is usually the more blades there are and maybe maybe the more curved

38:49They are I don't know what that part they at least add blades And so what you're trying to do is it's approximately a circle because Whatever shape the iris is that results from them closing in Any blob you have in the background of the blurry area of any blob like a point light source especially Will take on that shape? So you want it to be a circle or you want it to be close to circle and if you if you look at like you know The the comparisons on like lens reviews of like cheaper lenses with fewer blades versus the more expensive lenses like They'll show you the difference. It's pretty apparent. So to have only six blades and have them be straight You're not going to get the look that you want without some processing. I mean the blades are tiny though That's why yeah everything about this is so tiny. I don't really blame them no agreed But that this is all kind of why I think like If what you want is an SLR look without computational tricks I don't think this is going to bring you as close to that as you might think yeah I think it's just giving a little bit more flexibility for

39:52For the apertures that are all effectively very tiny holes and like again in the in the grand scheme of things How big physically speaking in millimeters is this whole leading to the sensor and how big is the sensor everything is so tiny Having a little bit of flexibility here is good. I'm looking forward to it especially You know given the manual controls that we're going to get to in a second if I can actually pick it and have some say over it I mean, maybe don't just be like the slider and liquid glass where it's just like look There's only two settings all the way to the left and all the way to the right why bother in the middle But we'll see what the auto setting does for me. Yeah exactly and I think overall like this sounds like a very good camera upgrade Broadly for lots of reasons Mostly in the software honestly the hard bit doesn't seem like it's that different but the larger widest aperture going from f1.78 to f1.48 That will help everything that will help low light performance like that's oh that is always a good welcome change That's what they were showing over the video of like look. It's like Lighting a match in a totally dark scene and the match is eliminating the actress face. It's like oh shot on iPhone

40:53Yeah, there you go Alrighty, so we got some discussions about the software and this is where we start talking about pro controls First of all, there's cinematic effects from regular video after captured 60 frames per second That's pretty cool. You can do time lapse in 4k with Dolby vision The audio mix where you select like Not scenes in the world I'm looking for but like oh, I want to focus on what's in the frame I want to focus on the environment whatever the case may be will you that that feature is Now has music support which is cool so they showed like a couple of jazz musicians playing on the street I will say also for the video like again. This is all shot on iPhone blah blah blah They really went with HDR in this whole presentation I know lots of past presentations have been HDR. I know because I've struggled to download the stupid HDR version from apples HLS servers because of some kind of bad akamai Node near me that refuses to let me download them But anyway, I know they've done HDR a lot and and for I think of our couple of years now But having watched this on my protest flags. They are I thought their use of HDR

41:56In these segments was really good like it wasn't like look the sun is in your eyes Everything was just a little bit brighter a little bit sparkly A little bit richer it looked really good and if that was if that's the shot on the iPhone stuff I got a lot of us to do with you know Obviously the people who were directing the scenes and deciding where to stage them and how to light them and stuff like that But I think they're they're taste and how to deploy HDR in a video that is essentially people standing in front of things talking They did a really good job of that this time I'm not sure how much of that to credit the phone for but the phone was obviously part of the mix And if my if the videos that I take of my family and my dog and my outdoors and stuff Good look half as good as their setups here. I'll be happy All right, so we got the pro controls and the camera app Sorry third party camera folks. This is yeah, it's amazing that they've lasted this long basically having such a simple camera app I mean, I know there's lots of little gadgets and buttons and I remember but like there's such a huge Market for third party camera apps that like hey, you know There are software controls for all the settings that you would want on a camera

42:59And we can just expose them to you in an app and there's lots of apps that do that You know, obviously the the ones that stand head and shoulders by or else are popular and have their own technology to go with it But finally apple center right we can do that too like we can we can just but we can just put the white balance control right in the Camera interface every other app in the world does it Now we can do it and we can let you adjust shutter speed and like it's like yeah, and I feel bad for those camera apps like oh man We had this market sewn up because apple just refused to do it with built-in app so basically our app if our apps the one they find first Well, we have these controls and it's great And now the bar has been raised substantially now it's not enough to just say hey I have a third party camera app that lets you have some more controls because the built-in one Has a pretty good interface to a lot of the basic controls that weren't there before Yeah, and I believe they said it was customizable right did it so you hear that right? Yeah I'm probably in the same way the current one is where you can kind of decide what you want to see and how many controls you want to see and which thing What we'll see how it uh it ends up like it's obviously not going to really compete with the high-end third party camera apps

44:00That have way more features than this, but it is they're finally taking a step in that direction saying it's there's we're not going to hold back and just give The simplest possible thing and arguably they started down that direction when they introduced the camera control and all that stuff And setting aside how that physical control worked They have been adding more stuff to the camera app and now they're continuing in that direction So we've got these pro controls you can do white balance. They'll show a histogram You can do the aforementioned manual aperture. You can do shutter speed and all of this is also supported in video One of the cooler things that they did talk about that I noticed or that well that I thought was cool Not I'm not trying to imply in the only person noticed I thought it was extremely cool that they made it specific mention that for video and I'm not sure how you enable this But for video you can do focus tracking which which means like they show the example of a kid soccer game and the kid is running toward the camera And generally speaking in the past it's been kind of hard to get the phone to stay focused on the kid Is there or anything really as it's moving closer or further away from the camera But they said not only will they do focus tracking so keeping the focus on this child as they're running closer and further away from the phone

45:06But also if they exit and then re enter the frame That is super cool and I'm really excited to try that out Was this only video or was it also a photo because that's another feature that that like you know my my son my real Sony cameras One of their big selling points is how well they can latch onto a thing You're trying to photograph and keep the focus on it and same deal like keeping the focus on the person even if they turn their head around If they turn their head back and it grabs their eye again if they running across the frame It keeps track of them like same deal And it's always amazed me that apple has not Jumped on that faster because the the SOCs in the in the iPhone are massively more powerful than the ones that are in the Sonic cameras and yet the Sony cameras are have a reputation for Grabbing focus and not letting go and doing really well in these situations So it's good to see apple taking some of that if it's just for video will be kind of disappointing I was kind of wish they would just bring all my Sony camera controls to the iPhone plane still image thing again Because the phone has just so much power like I should have no problem just Trouncing the Sony in this area, but so far they haven't been very excited to do so and part of it is like okay if you're

46:12Taking pictures or video of your kid playing soccer from reasonable distances Because of what we just said before about yeah f1.4 blah blah blah Practically speaking it's not the same as f1.4 on a full-frame camera because everything is tiny what that means is All your apertures are tiny so at the distance you're videoing your kid Everything in that field is in focus like it's a tiny hole right? I mean maybe it's like it just I don't think there's like this This shallow depth of field like oh no I was at f1.4 and only my kids noses in focus and if it misses focus on him then he's just a blur in the background That's not a problem with phone video from normal viewing distances So maybe that's why they waited so long to get these fancy focus controls because it's like look Just point in the direction of the kids and it recorded and they'll be fine also Unless I miss something it also appears as though All of the other cameras on the phone are unchanged from the 17 pro It seems like the the front camera like the you know the new square sensor front camera that we got last year That seems exactly the same the 4x camera seems exactly the same like every the

47:16The ultra-wide every it seemed like everything else is unchanged And most likely the sensor on the 48 megapixel one or on the 1x for the make the sensor also seems like it was unchanged Because they didn't mention anything about it So it seems like the variable aperture Is the the only change for the camera system this year and then these other software controls which again are useful But this is this is a A medium camera upgrade year and it's much more on the software side than the hardware side Yeah, the only even rumor there was about cameras other than the variable aperture one being better was that maybe the telephoto would go to 10x But it doesn't so that didn't happen yet. There was there was this like last minute rumor drop almost all of which was wrong Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right So there are new Texture and green controls in the photo styles thing that's that like matrix where you can drag around the little cursory thing and Try to lock in the exact photo style you want now you can do with with texture in green control They did make a bit of a stink about authenticity and they said they're supporting the synth ID standard

48:22Which John is hopefully linked for me in the show notes. I think that's the right thing I know that you had trouble hearing them and I just looked at the subtitles, but I'm pretty sure this is what they were saying But it is so this is something that Google's come up with that I think a fair number of people are starting to embrace They're talking there. They spoke about Apple reference image where the camera securely signs the photo data Excuse me at pixel level at the time of capture and then private cloud compute creates a reference photo that lives Here to the edited photo so you can visually confirm what's actually in the shot So I guess what happens is it will always as far as I can tell anyway the original photo will always be there And we'll ride along with whatever edits you make to the photo. I'm unclear about the mechanics That's what happens now like that's that's has always been Apple's photo system is your original remains unmodified and then your all your edits are like effects on top of it But what they're saying is not only are we going to continue to do that But we're going to sort of sign the original so it can you can prove that this was captured by Apple's camera and has this this this original capture hasn't been altered whereas but they're all the system

49:24You can just replace that original behind the scenes with whatever you want So look this is what my iPhone took a picture of it's like well Was it signed by all the secret key? I don't know why they're sending it to private cloud compute But presumably there's some computationally expensive thing that they don't want to do on your phone that they'll do at their leisure On private cloud compute But presumably there is some kind of hardware signing thing involving the secure enclave or whatever in the image processing And the sensor and blah blah blah that makes it so that you can't fake one of these things if you have an image that is signed in this way You can be sure that it was These are the actual captured pixels from one of these apple camera devices. That's the idea anyway Yeah, I'm very curious to learn over time like how How does this work? Why does private cloud compute get involved? Is there some kind of like registry of the keys or something like what happens if one of the keys gets compromised? Like like if a phone's key gets compromised? I think it's just because it's competentially expensive I don't I think that's why I'm going to that's the only way they always go to private cloud compute It's not like it's it's because they don't want to do it on your phone because it's too much

50:27Right, but like so if what they have set up here is basically a system that creates a pretty strong incentive for people to be able to Prove something that wasn't really captured by a sensor they you know what happens if one phone's key gets compromised somehow Or there's some hack developed such that people can You know make make Photos that aren't real get signed as if they were real I don't know this this could be very interesting in the age of AI and fake everything If it all works, but that's a big if I mean, but that's that's the one we do with an all encryption like yeah If someone gets some secret key or whatever you can fake stuff But like we have to make an effort in that direction, which is we'll use the best technology We have which I mean apples pretty good at this stuff so far and like so far another hard work He's have been leaked in such a way that it's compromised everything, but yeah, that's it's possible But it's better than not doing it at all like the alternative is okay Don't do it at all and there's nothing you know trying to prove that this thing you know So I know what you're saying it's like oh you have the system of people start believing in it

51:28Then you can fake things more easily because people believe in it, but I think it's cracked well know that it's cracked pretty quickly Alrighty, so We got told that there's an upgraded dynamic island. It's a bit smaller They did not make much of a big deal of this which I was a little surprised about But now you can have up to three live activities and they specifically cited our friends over at flighty which I thought was neat Then they did a kind of overview of the new features of i was 27 when she spoke about back in june There's new cases. There's an updated clear case. There's new colors protect woven and for silicone There's a new wrist strap for iPhone cases and for AirPods pro and the pricing so it starts at $1200 for the 256 gig model Which is up $100 over the 17 pro Also the 16 17 17 e and air are all now $100 more expensive phones that didn't change Yeah Then the max starts at $1300 both of these phones you can get up to two terabytes of storage Apple upgrade it starts at $35 a month for 24 months you get $1200 off if you trade a 14 or newer

52:34They introduced briefly care one family so apple care one family so you can have Family members on the same plan. I think this would have solved a lot of your problems right john? Well, I have a section on that. I didn't realize you know that up there, but I had a section on it lower So here's a deal with apple care family So what they say on their apple.com slash apple care pages They say cover up to three devices with apple care one individual Which is the new name of what was previously just called apple care one so now it's apple care one individual And then they say or choose apple care one family to cover every eligible device for up to six people That's a great deal because it's not just like three you know the individual is three devices for one person the family is Every eligible device for six people so it seems like if if a one person owns 50 devices you're you know anyway Um, obviously you pay for each device you cover but anyway After you sign up easily add devices straight from your phone or mac including most devices less than four years old and in good working condition blah blah blah here's the problem with this plan and the reason I'm still staying away from it Like I said they should do a family plan, but the problem is Cover every eligible device for up to six people. Well, how do they identify people?

53:39Yeah Because I have a lot of accounts with a lot of different apple ideas. I'm like for like dev testing stuff or whatever and I'm gonna run out of the six people and I'm not gonna add first of all I'm not gonna add my dev testing advice to my apple family I'm not even sure if you need to do that, but second of all I've already got more than six I've got four actual people plus a bunch of test dev accounts and granted They don't have any devices that need to be covered by apple care, but to remind everyone what happened to me last time was If you have a Mac with multiple accounts, which I totally do and you ever sign into an account that is not one of the accounts that is covered under apple care one They just yank that device off of the thing. They sorry. We saw a different apple idea on that device. Now it's not covered anymore Um, I have had reports from listeners who said hey, I've got apple care one I log into a whole bunch of different accounts. It never bothers me So maybe they change this, but if they changed it they didn't say anything about it And when I looked at like the terms of service like the pdf terms of service, which is weird They have like a picker you have to pick your state that you're in anyway When I read the language and their apple care one terms of service it didn't look any different to me Look exactly the same as it was before where they just say like

54:41One person won this whatever, but the problem with me was always Uh, you you sign into a different apple idea Well, now that Mac belongs to a different person because you switched accounts and that person is not part of your apple care one family Because that's limited to six and DevTester 22 is not part of that six and so sorry So yeah, I'm staying far away from this because my last experience with it was terrible apple There's someone an apple knows that they have changed this policy and our have fixed this bug Please tell me but last time I pursued this all the way to the end apple said that's just the way apple care one works No, we can't change it if you don't like it get off apple care one. So that's what I did. So And again, like I said, I've had multiple people say this is no longer the case But I don't trust it. So I'm staying away until I get official words from apple that I can log into a different account on my Mac And they won't yank it off apple care one. Oh, I do get that information. I am very interested in this Oh, I skipped something earlier that I wanted to briefly talk about. I phone handoff. This was in the i was 27 section You can share a single phone number between two phones. This has been slightly rumored slightly discovered earlier

55:43It only supports T-Mobile. I think anywhere right now But they said that Verizon and EE will be adding support by end of year Which could be interesting useful for me in the future. We'll talk about it a little later Anyways, so yeah apple care one family you can pre-order this Saturday and launch is September 18 All right, so then they talked about the AirPods 5 I don't really have much to say about this but the brief overview is that it's got Air all the AirPods 5 have active noise cancellation Which is also 50% better than it was before they claim it's the best ANC in any open-eared design They talked about some other features. It has that have been common for while they had a very cheesy demo of live translation Which is very funny where somebody walked up to a woman saying like oh come to our show It'll be fun or something like that and she says thank you It was very weird Anyways, you get for $129 you get the This is the same price as the previous generation but that generation didn't have active noise cancellation

56:47So last time it was 130 bucks for no ANC now it's 130 bucks with ANC And then they eventually got backed around to announcing AirPods 5 with wireless charging case Which they wouldn't say the name of it for a strangely long time But this includes on-stand volume control Better battery life and again a wireless charging case and here it is the same price as before 150 bones That is again pre-ordered on Saturday both of these pre-order on Saturday out on the 18th And they noted that this means active noise cancellation is now standard across the entire lineup John are you in for a pair? I already honored a pair I must have not been paying attention to the AirPods 5 rumors or maybe the On-stem volume didn't leak but that is the killer feature for you because remember I don't use the pros So you've been enjoying the little on-stem volume Swiping thing and I haven't had it and now I do and so like I don't care about the ANC Because in general I don't use noise cancellation on these and honestly the the noise There's no on the AirPods 4 like they're open here They don't go in your ear hole so it's never going to be great

57:49They say that it's better. I'll try it. I'll see how much better it is But it does really hurt your battery But anyway, that's what I love about these AirPods 5 with wireless charging case is that they've got the on-stem volume control And they supposedly have better battery and those are all things I want I like I said I use the AirPods all all the time every step is not day goes by one I don't use these things. Yeah, and so I'm replacing them with these five I it's going to be a big upgrade for me and as far as I can tell they're the same shape Which I like because the current shape fits me So I was very happy with this it was the first thing that I ordered It's orderable today not on Saturday then I'm a spoken minute Oh, you can do a pre-order or whatever. I don't know like I Okay, I did it. I did a double tap on the side button with Apple Pay so something happened Oh, my bad then I guess you can order today and they'll yeah, am I right to say they're out on the 18th? Or am I making that up? Oh, I didn't look what the ship date was but Now John did you order the AirPods 5 or did you order what was first called this version? And eventually was renamed airpods 5 with wireless charging case

58:50Which I remember like last year we they did the same thing with like the AirPods 4 or whatever that you know To your universe airpods 4 and they had like the AirPods 4 with active noise cancellation and like right This is two different products and they just refuse to really name the second one Just call it like air pods 5 plus yeah, or like it's it's a different product between the base air pods and the pros Just give it a real name because they have to keep dancing around it when they present it I'm sure it causes lots of confusion when people try to buy it What a weird thing they keep doing with just insisting that this is just it's the same product well except for this version This version of air pods 5 with wireless charging case with different capabilities Come on is physically different on the outside now at least last time they were basically the same on the outside But this on the outside is the physical outside appearance is also different in addition to the inside has been different when when I bought this on the phone app I was using the Apple store phone app

59:51You have to tap on air pods 5 you're like what I don't want the five I want the five with Whatever like but you have to tap on five and then you have two choices within the five which is like it's like the bin CPU and the CPU it's like AirPods 5 or Airpods 5 with wireless charging case and then it says in little bullet points Also, it has a volume control also it has better battery like yeah, anyway, it's a different product just call it something else Airpods 5 air pods 5 plus air pods 5 pro Done We are sponsored this episode by factor you know in very busy times of my life and that's an increasing percentage of the times in my life especially iPhone week In very busy times in my life factor is great because factor makes it easy to eat well even when I don't have a lot of time Factor makes chef crafted dietician designed ready to eat meals So you don't have to choose between real food and convenience they have amazing meals at factor and it's just two minutes of heating

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1:01:55Wasp lies last until October 31st 2026 that's code ATP 50 off at factor meals.com ATP 50 off at factor meals.com see website for more details Thank you so much to factor for sponsoring our show ah Apple watch series 12 They made a big stink about health and fitness and their new health sensing system There's different physical sensors on the back of the apple watch There's increased area for the electrodes redesign photo diodes larger more efficient more power efficient green LEDs And this leads to accurate heart rate measuring all day long every five seconds, which is like a 60x increase or something like that Yeah, this is he so this I think by by introducing this new sensor array and they talked a lot about You know, they said that they did a new study where that showed that apple watch now has the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable like Between that and this kind of more continuous background heart rate monitoring

1:02:59This is really going to compete If it works a lot better with like the garments and the you know that kind of wearable of the world In a lot of those areas I think this is great especially like the background heart rate out being taken every five seconds Instead of I guess every 15 minutes or whatever that would be um That's a big difference. That's a really big difference um, you know, and it's it samples hrv every five minutes which it is also like a huge increase from where it was before This is much closer to Continuous heart rate all day like that's basically what this is like That's very very close to what this is and that if they choose to use the data this way Which that's a big if but if they choose to use this data in this way They could do things like It's basically always tracking a workout in some form So like if you forget to start your workout or if you forget to stop your workout or if you get to resume your workout after you've positive for a while They now will have more data that they can kind of patch in to make up for that

1:04:03Um, they can probably also if they choose to use this Have better sensing for things like the workout detection things if like did you did you start a walk outside like maybe that feature can get better with this new data there's all sorts of potential for all of the heart monitoring and related features of the Apple Watch to get significantly better now they're going to have way more frequent data When you're not a workout. So that I think could be very very promising for you know general Apple Watch usefulness over time and um You know to to also have this new sensor that promised to be more accurate That's very very promising. I hope this pans out the way it sounds like it it could Yep, it sounds really really good They did this comparison where they led to the conclusion that they are they we only we are the best in most accurate wearable They did this by apparently comparing to an ECG chest strap as reference which I mean fair enough Um, they talked about all sorts of different health stuff Honestly, it I was paying attention, but it was so much so fast that I think I need to have some time with the redesigned health app

1:05:09Which uh is not coming until later this year But one of the things they said is they're going to do a readiness like score from zero through 10 which is your body's capacity to take on the day So basically hey, we think you're exhausted maybe take it easy or oh you slept great You should go run a marathon or whatever the case maybe this is a such a great gamification of health like literally gamification like when you have video game characters We have abilities on cooldown and it's like oh your your meters are fully charged right like this is basically you're starting the day and it's like You know what was it like good to go or like go for it is like you're you all your meters are fully charged versus like Maybe take it easy maybe really you know and so this this goes great with the other gamification that they add which is health age which I know lots of apps and stuff have done this so it's like you know Whatever one wants to hear is like Your 30 years old, but you have the heart of a 20 year old like everyone wants to hear that no one wants to hear You're 30 years old, but you have the heart of a 65 year old Uh, and unfortunately if this feature is accurate both of those are possibilities So everyone wants to hear that they're younger than they think they are

1:06:10But I guess finding out that you have the heart of an 80 year old when you're 40 is telling you something and maybe go to the doctor But uh, that's another one of those sort of like gamified stats of like you know what what are my character stats How full are my meters? That's what these things are telling you in theory And this is also the the readiness score and and all this stuff This is following a lot of broader trends in the fitness wearable market like this is exactly the kind of thing that like Whoop bands and aura rings and all these other wearables that have you know had some success recently Um, this is the kind of thing they do their apps analyze their data and they tell you basically all of these same things And that's a large part of why people like them like people buy these but these other wearables for all sorts of other reasons But This is these are all very popular features of them So as apple you know, we got the rumor a few shows ago that that Larger apple watch Re-thinks are in the works and they're looking to maybe rethink some of the lineup and expand them and go into new markets and stuff Um, you know over the next few years, but none of that was going to be ready yet in time for this

1:07:14This kind of shows like they're taking a step towards that they I think they're realizing that they are Honestly losing ground to a lot of these other wearables like As I said back then um, you know a few weeks ago and we talked about it Look around it. How many like young people are wearing apple watches and it seems like the numbers going down like it seems like No one's wearing an apple watch that I'm seeing like below age 25 I'm paper healthy or think they are anyway. Yeah, but but it does seem like I'm seeing a lot of boot bands and aura rings and I'm not seeing the apple watch seem to grow So they do need to move into these markets and this you know The hardware probably is not ready yet for them to start doing that, but I'm glad to see them like starting to take this competition seriously by doing a lot more of these software features And by working on the basics things like the heart rate accuracy like to you know to try to compete better with the rest of the market So this is all kind of playing into that story. I think so I'm glad to see it

1:08:14Yeah, so like I said, there's a lot of health stuff um And I tried so hard to keep up and I couldn't so we're gonna mostly skip over that They talked about some new apple intelligence stuff for the watch specifically And especially audio intelligence This includes sound recognition so your apple watch will know if there was like a doorbell in the background for example They also talked about live rewind which lets you see a transcript of the last 15 seconds of conversation around you You do this by double pressing the digital crown Um, they had this as the way they demoed this is a waitress or you know a supposed waitress rattling off today's Specials at a restaurant at just an astonishing pace which of course Uh, but it was very contrived and very funny to me Yeah, you can just ask the server to repeat the specials just that is something you could do and by the way It's a 15 second cap It's not gonna fit when's the last time like if you're at a restaurant and they're reading off some you know some lengthy specials Let's say it's not gonna fit in 15 seconds. I assure you like it's like what do you even know about restaurants?

1:09:1915 seconds is long for specials, but uh, well, so here's the other thing. It's not a transcript be there. It's a summary That's true. It is not I did say transcript and I think that might be an accurate. I think you're right John It's actually a summer uh, well no, I think the 15 second one. I think that I'll double check the the wipe over I think that one actually is a transcript But it's the Siri recap feature which will probably get to in a second that's the summary. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's what it is Well, either way when they showed the little demo remember you're looking at this on a watch screen So fifth can you imagine scrolling through 15 seconds of speech on a watch screen and trying to get something out of it It's not ideal. Yeah fair definitely not and then as Marco just brought up their Siri recap Which is basically in the same way that the heart rate stuff was like a screw you to the root band Siri recap is a screw you to like the little pendants that everyone seems to think are very cool So what this is it's a high level notes of your conversations you review them in the Siri app You can enable it always or on a schedule you can turn it on or off via control center The audio is not recorded or stored. I think

1:10:21The audio cannot be accessed by anyone including apple the speakers are not identified And I didn't personally get a chance to read this. It sounds like Marco you at least got a chance to skim it I actually a okay, there you go So there's a white paper that talks about the privacy implications of all this since Marco you read it Can you give us any notes from that or is it not really that interesting? All right So Everyone is reacting to this and I think it is warranted It so the way this works the way apple has designed it is Audio is recorded on the watch in a special area of the s.o.c That is isolated from the rest so they so like the operating system and the rest of the s.o.c Doesn't have access to the audio data It is signed it is encrypted and signed it is then sent off the watch to your iPhone over Bluetooth The iPhone s.o.c's from 16 from iPhone 16 pro forward The iPhone s.o.c's Also have one of those similar ex-claves that isolates the audio Can decrypt the one with a key pair thing from the phone or from the watch

1:11:23And so basically so the watch records audio but can't read it Sensor to the phone the phone reads the audio and transcribes it on the phone Because I guess they don't want to burn the watches better you burn the transcription model on the watch And the phone obviously can have the better models anyway So then the phone summarizes it using local apple intelligence to cut it down to about half of its length and Try to enforce some kind of guardrails on whether this is a transcript of a conversation We want to keep or record it all then it sends it to private cloud compute Which does uneven more involved summarization and safety guardrail check and it sends it to private cloud compute along with a bunch of context data The same way they send serial AI requests So you know that your personal context about things like where you are or what's going on around you That kind of stuff it sends all that to private cloud compute and then that generates basically An even denser and more filtered summary of what is being said around you

1:12:24And then those are kept for seven days and everything is local and then encrypted similar to other iCloud You know sensitive data like your keychain and your health data stuff like that So that's how this works and they they're saying they are Filtering out things like personal identifiers and and you know that kind of sensitive information but That is all a lot of guardrails and a lot of safety and a lot of technical hoops jumping through to protect your privacy for something that is fundamentally an invasion of privacy There are lots of ways that you could see this going wrong Um now they they're very careful to say that the audio is not accessible to anything anywhere anybody anytime But the topics of what you talked about are And there's lots of situations you can imagine where That is first of all pretty sensitive second of all possibly dangerous to the people in the conversation

1:13:25uh third of all possibly Violating people's trust around you by them not realizing that you have a device on your wrist that is taking notes on your criminal effing conspiracy um There's a lot of potential problems with this and Honestly, I don't know why Apple is Inviting the flames onto themselves for this like why would they want to Turn the Apple watch into something that everyone is going to be as suspicious about as the meta ray band glasses That's what they're doing with this feature and I and they're you know We're doing the same thing with the air pods with the cameras and I think This model of what we're seeing here is actually probably a pretty good indicator of what the air pods pro with cameras Are going to do themselves which is they're probably going to do the same thing Not only with audio but also with video of like they're taking video Probably they're probably not going to make those recordings of the video available to anything

1:14:26But they will probably analyze the content of what's going on around you and take notes and allow you to review those notes That's my guess But anyway going back to the Apple watch think about the kind of the kinds of things they can record here sensitive personal conversations sensitive work conversations Things that are risky things like for instance like coordinating scheduling and discussing an abortion There's a lot of states where that is not a safe thing to be on a record somewhere What about if you are queer and you live somewhere where that is illegal or very dangerous And you have any record of that whatsoever There's a lot of situations where Apple is Is considering that well this is all secure and no one's ever going to get to it What if your spouse knows your passcode that's pretty common What if someone else is looking and looking at your phone And you don't necessarily know that they're looking at your phone There's a lot of untrusting relationships out there or a lot of things that you think are no big deal

1:15:29And it's no big deal for someone to have access to this But then they they get access to it or they see something that maybe you didn't think they would see or that maybe you didn't even know they would create they could see This just seems like it's an incredibly Dangerous Footgun to use AI to speak Which I know I know I didn't invent the term footgun, but it uses it a lot. It's just fun but I don't know why they're taking this on I don't think the value is just so massive that it's worth the possible reputational damage and heat of this in the same way I said similar things when they launched the air tag because the air tag also kind of seem like Why this is a really big risk of like privacy reputational problems and stuff like that for for a pretty small product Honestly, and I think this is the this is the next level of that. This is Apple Putting a feature into every series 12 and ultra four Apple watch That I think is going to really make people hate them

1:16:31It's going to invite problems. It's going to be used in criminal cases It's going to be used for persecution. It's going to be used for domestic surveillance and spying on people It's going to be used for harm Now it's also going to be used for good and you can think of lots of like useful things about this but Does that overcome the harm of even even with what they've done of like it is privately recorded and the audio is never Sent anywhere or readable by anything and you're only seeing transcripts and summaries of transcript high level topical summaries But like but even a high level topical summary could contain sensitive information And I do think it is a violation of trust of the people around you To use something like this And I just I do not see this ending well for them Do they talk about the activation Situation with this is this is the thing that you have to opt into is it on all the time? Do you have to activate it and turn it on if you do turn it on how long does it stay on do they cover any of that?

1:17:34Yeah, it's so it's there's a switch and control center on the watch Just like a you know regular icon and control center You can turn it on and off whenever you want and you can have it Gated to certain areas you can say only have it on when I'm at work is the example they use So it seems like they have some kind of geofence capability where you can you know use it here or don't use it here But you know what's gonna happen people are shouldn't leave it on like that's that's what's going to happen And even even if they don't even if you say fine just use it at work How does your employer feel about that? How do all of your co-workers feel about that like there's there's just a lot of potential Giant red flags on this that just make me wonder why they put this in here I think it's because this is the trendy AI thing to do this is perhaps because silicon valley is its own little bubble that doesn't really understand Reality a lot of the time I think it's because this this is a very much keeping up with the Joneses sort of feature I don't disagree in any particular way with any particular thing you just said But I think that apple feels like this is table stakes and so here they are My my guess is

1:18:35This is a shot at open AI because like yeah, there's a bunch of like dumb little startups trying to make stuff like this No one's buying them It isn't like apple is catching up with the rest of the world here because the rest of the world largely has said we don't care about these kinds of products But so which is why not everyone's wearing them all the time um So I could see like if if there was some like you know AI necklace that was taking off that everybody was buying and using in their work meetings I could totally see Apple saying okay, we're gonna we're gonna do that for the apple watch and neutralize that market But that market doesn't exist. It's it's not there people keep saying it's going to be there like the next big thing like You know the metaverse and it's not there like a no nobody wants it So apple kind of walked in here as if that market was already there. So that's why I think maybe Maybe open AI was going in this direction with one of their products and so apple as we know is pretty annoyed at open AI's hardware efforts. So maybe that It influenced this and and possibly Blinded them to some of the realities of what this means and what this might mean for them

1:19:39I hope that's not the answer. I hope they had a better reason than that but At this moment, I'm not really seeing it Maybe the thing is an accessibility thing or whatever, but it definitely wasn't pitched that way You know a more aptly way to do this and obviously that that's not the what they chose to do But a more aptly way to do is with the with the pieces they have is make an iPhone only And require the proximity sensor on the front of the iPhone to not be sensing anything in front of it Right, so then basically you're requiring the screen to be like unobstructed and then put some kind of graphic on the screen It's like a giant red siren rotating So that basically it becomes much much harder to surreptitiously record anybody because if you can't have your phone in your pocket You can have your phone face down on the table You have to have it somewhere where there's like a clear shot from the screen out into the world And you could still use it that way but like that would be acknowledging the main problem with this which as you said is mark We're like Do people know like people are gonna look at you and say oh you have an Apple watch are you recording me Which is exactly the meta-ray ban problem. Oh, it's got a line that you always know blah blah blah. Oh, yeah really

1:20:41If it's if it can be hidden at all it's like you don't notice someone's watch You don't think their watch is recording you and maybe an AI pen and it'll be more obvious But you know it's more obvious than a watch a phone screen up on the table with a graph account that's going with a giant E or going we're listening we're listening because there's these these products are useful in like work Contacts and stuff like that but the problem is okay But what about the whole rest of the context and geofencing's not gonna cut it and like you know it wanted to be suspicious of these things In other contexts and if it's just a built-in feature of the watch That makes every watch suspect whereas if it's something that people just use it work in a very obvious way You know, maybe the phone proximity sensor is not a great idea But like something like that, you know where the egg or the donut has a flashing light on it that can't be disabled or something and the egg or the donut is harder to hide I don't know it's it's difficult but like I feel like we're still in the early stages of adapting society to These technologies kind of in the same way when like photography first became a thing we had to establish societal norms and eventually laws about when it is and isn't okay to take a photograph of strangers

1:21:47I'm not saying we have the perfect situation for that But it took a long time from the advent of photography to the current situation now where we don't view cameras as this giant invasion of privacy We because we have again laws and social norms about when it is and isn't appropriate to use them And you can still be creepy with a camera and blah blah blah But nobody knows any of that stuff for the stuff forget about laws We don't have any laws about anything because we can't pass laws anymore in this country. It's correct But for like societal norms this technology is all too new we have no idea like I mean the norm of the meta-ray bands is Not doing we see like a creep but what what's the social norm of once the apple watch is gonna do it Well, we'll figure this out But I agree with you Mark. This is probably not the final form and it's probably a bad idea And why are they doing it? I think it's like it's competitive pressure and open AI and it's like well, we can do it and everyone else is doing it so we should try to do it too and Probably a bad call. Yeah, and then if you think about like think about all the context now that like in you know Six months from now all the different types of workplaces and societal places and situations where they're no longer gonna allow people to wear apple watches

1:22:52And now think about the same thing happening to air pods within a year Like that's why I think these features are are dangerous to the product in the sense in in lots of ways but also in the sense of like You're giving more workplaces and and venues and things you're giving more places Reasons to ban people from wearing these devices and using these devices there and that is not good for the products You know if you're wearing an apple watch for health monitoring or for the many many different utilities that it offers You don't want to have to take it off when you go to work because now your workplaces policy that nobody can wear apple watches Because they're recording everybody all the time same thing like they're if they're pushing the air pods as Health aids like the hearing aid features of air pods are amazing the hearing protection like this is like the last thing apple should be pushing for is any reason to Make it societally unacceptable to wear air pods But yet if they launch the camera air pods they're gonna do exactly that and again This is that same thing for the apple watch

1:23:53I worry about that for these products because these are products that have amazing value the more you wear them and in the more places you wear them And the last thing apple should be doing is giving businesses and things reasons to ban them I think they could do the air I don't know what they're gonna do with the air pods one, but I think they could do the air pod of line in a way better way because First of all don't have it be a camera. We have it be like an ira spray or something So there's never any visual data or whatever and second of all have the only function of it be What's in front of you right now? I will speak a summary of it to you Like what kind of bird is that what kind of car just went by who am I talking to so there's never any permanent record of any There's no quote-unquote recording of anything. It is entirely Some kind of sensor sees what's in front of me AI blah blah blah real-time speaks into my ears and that's it No data retention whatsoever. I think that would be privacy preserving it would be good for accessibility And it would let people identify birds and remember people names Yeah, I mean that like when you when you hear the stories of How much blind people can be can benefit from the meta-ray bands because it's a way for

1:24:58Something with AI sensibilities to look at the road around them tell them what's around them and keep their hands free because their hands are probably busy with A dog a cane object something else like that's why it's so game-changing for blind people at the ray bands The air pods with the cameras would have presumably similar value and probably even more value Because they they would probably have way longer battery life. They would cost less money So like that's and they wouldn't be sending your video to a data center in some country or someone can look at it Yes, exactly so that's possibly very helpful But again like if there's any creepy features that are there They're gonna get a stigma associated with them and it's going to harm all those use cases So Apple has to be very careful with the features they develop around this and this Apple watch feature suggests to me that they're not being careful enough Right, we got to hurry this along. So there's a new S.O.C There's some new colors space gray black like golden dark bronze The aluminum has ceramic shield two which you knew from the iPhones

1:25:5917 pro There's two new polished titanium finishes rating gold and natural which are which is 100% recycled titanium It's one new finish the gold the gold is lighter gold. This natural is the same Fair enough There's also ceramic in pearl white and night blue This all starts before an aluminum GPS model at 400 bones you can pre-order today available in the 18th of September The list family is in for so far one of the Apple watch aluminum The 44 whatever 46 millimeter aluminum for me to replace my series 10 I thought about going ultra, but I just don't think I need it I just don't think it's necessary for me. So I'm in for one once I get a chance to get Aaron in front of the Apple store You know like app or whatever we're gonna order one for her What did you guys buy if anything? I'm getting um No pro iPhone this year Uh for the first time ever. I'm just talking watches slow down kid. I'm just talking watch We passed the phones already you didn't ask Uh, well, but there's one more phone to go. There's one more thing mark. I didn't say anything about that

1:27:01There's actually one more thing um, but I For the for the watches um, I didn't buy a watch last year. So I'm rocking a series 10 uh I am gonna upgrade to the series 12 because I want that ceramic. They I had the ceramic back forever ago I believe it was the series five was the last ceramic one. They did back then it was an edition that cost $1200 Um, so for now it only being $900 actually a reasonable price for what it is It's about it's like I think it's slightly more than the titanium or they're for the same price of titanium So that's honestly great news to me The thing was at the same time about ceramic and I it looks this way on the new ones too the bezel around the screen there's like a slight gap between the screen crystal and where the ceramic starts like the curvature of it like it Juts out slightly so the this like the crystal mound on top is slightly Smaller than the ceramic base. It's sitting on so if you care about that kind of detail like when I had the series five

1:28:05I noticed that and I didn't like it and this this one looks like it has the exact same um design The ceramic is also very slightly larger in footprint probably for that reason and the ceramic is heavier than titanium So it's something to know the other thing with ceramic is that It will make it so that any watch band you have that has the like the shiny polished metal lugs will look wrong So it does restrict your band choice somewhat in that there is no like matching metal finish for the ceramic One of the things to know for some reason the dark blue ceramic is heavier than the white ceramic. I don't know why Um, yeah, it's not by a lot. It's like one gram or gram and a half But for some reason the blue is heavier and The white I'm not entirely sure is white Like I was watching all the youtube videos from the hands on air. It's trying to figure out like eggshell Yeah, like they're calling it the band. They sell that matches it's called sand And it's it's definitely some kind of off white

1:29:08But the question is how far off I guess Um, so that also could make it a little bit more difficult to match with straps So we'll see how that goes, but I'm looking forward to it for um You know more for novelty sake like the the regular series apple watch has looked so similar for so long I'm ready for some novelty in its design And that's and I've enjoyed wearing an ultra for most of the summer in part because of the novelty of the design And in part because I like the big screen I'm hoping the white ceramic will will kind of tie this over design wise on the regular series So it doesn't seem so boring and so played out until we get Some kind of you know different hardware redesign which is again room for next year and the other thing I'll say is on the ultra For we're not there yet. Oh, sorry, we'll get there But to be honest, there's almost nothing to say so carry on Oh, Mark, I will say um are you going to order your ceramic watch without seeing it Are you gonna wait till you see it in person to pick what you want?

1:30:09I just ordered it because in the videos it looks pretty bright white Not you the white one. Yeah, I got the white one and I and I went back to the smaller one So for the last few months, I've kind of gone between The small one the big one and the ultra at different times I'll spend like a few weeks with each one Mostly testing out UIs and stuff, but then you know also kind of seeing how it fits in my life I would wear the ultra year round If it didn't suck so badly when you have a long sleeve over it or a jacket cuff Like anything with like a cuff sleeve or a jacket the way it goes over that ultra just It's so clumsy like getting it over the that thick bulky sharp-edged watch But all summer I love the ultra because I'm not I don't have a jacket or a long sleeve shirt so that's great Um, but in the winter I like something that that's sleek here and goes under a sleeve better So for me that's the regular one and I like the small one. It's just so light and and like unobtrusive on my wrist it feels like I'm You know like I'm I'm waving my arms around a vertical see right now. It just feels like I like wave my arms in it

1:31:12They're all they're all lightweight and I'm free free as a bird. So I like that So we'll see we'll see how that goes the ultra. Let's measure as well cover that now ultra four Uh, longer battery life Seems the same otherwise, you know the new s. O. C So it has the new software features than the new sensors on the back longer battery life for some reason Uh, which seems probably mostly related to the s. O. C and they ruined some of the band colors That's the back like so all of the The watch bands this year of the The ultra I think the best band for the ultra is the ocean band. It's that silicone band with like the bumps and That like the rigged loops and you can like pick any slot and you know stick it in kind of buckle it down And they made for some reason they turned these wonderfully colored ocean bands previously into this like translucent garbage color and they it's three different garbage colors that are all translucent They looked terrible in the pictures. I'm hoping they look better notice that. I hope you look better in real life

1:32:15It looks horrendous So I think they might have temporarily ruined the ocean band Uh, but that would should be it would should be a shame because it is the best ultra band but The rest of the lineup everything is very earth toned which is very in right now. This is what I was talking earlier Browns Beiges this is all very very in which honestly I'm not a fan of this trend It's very hard for me to buy nice shirts this year for every cell because everything is different colors of beige and brown Which do not look good on me and are impossible to match to each other or anything else But that's what's in fashion. So that's what the apple watch is the apple watch is trying to keep up a fashion Lots of browns lots of earth tones lots of soft graze and you know, beiges and stuff like that So that's why they're doing all these colors the way they are We'll see how these look in practice and you know, it's gonna be it's gonna look very much of this year And then next year we'll have different colors and we'll get it rolled rolled the dice again iPhone or excuse me apple. That's ultra four 800 bones you can pre-order today available the 18th of September

1:33:19I circled back to the series 12 watch for a second I don't wear an apple watch so this is not particularly relevant to me But I will say that my expectations were so low for what the series 12 watch would be and you know physically speaking It is what you thought it just looks like every other watch And I knew there would be a new SOC but I have to say when they got done with that series 12 presentation I'm like this is the best Series X whatever apple watch they've introduced in years because first of all They did actually change the hardware with the new SOC and it has you know fancy features and more neural engines and stuff like that like finally It has that whole like the back sensor thing that's not a small thing like that's the whole watch is basically a screen An SOC a battery and that thing on the back and they 100% change the thing on the back in large ways that make it better It's so I feel like this is kind of like a We used to think of like an s generation phone. Oh, it looks the same on the outside But everything about it is better And then all the software features setting aside the privacy invasion stuff the other software features they had I just think this is the best The biggest leap over the series and minus one phone that they've had in years and again

1:34:22I don't even I don't even care about the phone or the watch. No, I think I said phone I don't care about the watch. I don't wear the watch But I think this is a great one So if you're waiting for like when is the right time to buy an apple watch If you have any interest in them I think the series 12 is a really good time Especially if you like the current design because someday in theory they will change the design But that time is not this year and this seems like a really really good Apple watch series whatever watch up both in hardware and software And I think in the choices that you have finishes setting aside the earth tone bands I do like the polished titanium versus like the matte ones. I think ceramic is cool I was very impressed. This is like it's the Most improved or exceeded expectations The Apple watch series 12 Yeah, it looks like a nice all around update It depends a lot on how good those new sensors are If they are as good as they sound if they really do provide like Nearly continuous heart rate monitoring all day and the heart rate monitoring is more accurate and better HRV and all those

1:35:25You know readiness features and all the software features that tie into it to give you the little scores in the gamification that Build off the new stuff like I just think it's it's a great total package. Yeah, one of their little thing I noticed when I was doing the spec comparisons The previous Apple Watch series 11 is listed as having GPS The Apple Watch Ultra has precision dual frequency GPS which is L1 and L5 as I discussed back with my my sunto and garment segments The Apple Watch series 12 now says precision L1 GPS Which is Possibly the same thing as the old one like because L the dual frequencies are L1 and L5 The Apple series 11 had L1 series 12 now says precision L1 What does that mean is it actually different? I don't know But it still isn't dual frequency which honestly does surprise me because Every modern iPhone every modern android phone Every Apple Watch Ultra and every sunto and garment watch, you know above a certain level

1:36:28They all have dual frequency GPS these days and the regular series Apple Watch for it's still not to have that is a little weird to me And a little unfortunate, but anyway, that's that's hopefully a minor thing and yes I agree with John that this does look like Potentially a very strong update if those sensors are as good as Apple says they are We are sponsored this week by quince So we are finally here in the northern hemisphere getting the sweet sweet respite of the humidity season I'm sorry summer and we are launching into the best of all seasons fall and because we're launching towards fall We are starting to get chillier nights, which means you might want to consider long sleeves and long Trausers UK folks Anyways, the point is is that as we're starting to dig out different parts of our wardrobe Now is the perfect time to refresh that wardrobe and let me tell you if you want to do that you should check out quince Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe Staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere organic cotton and marino wool

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1:38:38So that's quince.com qunc e dot com slash ATP Please go check them out. Thank you to quince for sponsoring the show Yeah, so that's the entire press oh wait one more thing But the way first of all what a move for john turners to have to use one more thing in his first keynote Uh, but that but he kind of soft played it he said But actually there is one more thing Which is like the the but actually I think really softens it like I mean Maybe this is you know turners to style. We'll see but it was it was little I thought it was like a little bit Fumbled in that way Well the whole one more thing Phenomenon is Totally undercut by the amount that phone stuff leaks Yeah, I deal one more thing is I didn't even know apple was working on anything like this Obviously that will probably never happen again except for maybe with the mac pro that no one cares about to leak But yeah, how even that will probably leak but like this thing

1:39:41We knew every millimeter of this device before was released so it's not like anyone was shocked like Is the presentation over no we know it's not oh well to be fair We knew everything about the hardware We really didn't know anything about the software yeah, yeah, but I'm saying like it's not like the one more thing is like What do you mean you made an X like we know it's a folding phone just saying right anyway It is it is a kind of silly in the age where everything goes to leaks Yes, so this all first off was all you know, it's harder to leak Although sometimes that's something stupid this time a lot of it was hidden Right, so we get the iPhone duo He had turned us to delete in with a bunch of Different quotes about it none of which were actually that exciting I will say that are all of our predictions of her being ultra because ultra was a stupid name and apple likes to do stupid names Apple's like oh we always do stupid names. Let's do a sensible one. What do you think of that? And they did it's a sensible as the reason one of the main reasons I thought they would never do it is because it made too much sense

1:40:43And also the surface duo are like oh Microsoft surface duo. It's fine iPhone duo and surface duo. I feel like are not going to be in conflict anyway No one knows what that is the precedent here is obviously the power book duo either one of you ever seen this device in person Uh, it doesn't even have one I believe that I think I've seen if I'm not mistaken Yeah, so when I when I worked in uh, I don't know what that guy was computer lab attendant and in college There was someone that was a professor who had a computer lab and I took care of the computers there Doing retrospect backups to tape from the various max that had a next cube that uh Richard green blatt would use sometimes and the professor had a power book duo Which was an incredibly thin incredibly light laptop from the 90s I think it was like four pounds in the 90s like this unprecedented And it was so small and thin because it had nothing in it There was no floppy drive can you imagine a laptop with no floppy drive no optical drive I was just a screen and a track ball not a trackpad and a not even full-size keyboard

1:41:44But it was incredibly thin, okay, but it was useless because it's only good for portable stuff on the go Um, so it had a thing called the duo dock which was like a little garage that you shoving into It goes into a little slot and when you slide it into that thing sitting on top of it would be your big CRT monitor and when you shoved it in there that box would have a floppy drive potentially another hard drive inside there networking and all the peripheral connections that you didn't have on the tiny laptop I think the box also had an fp unit a floating point processing unit So the floating point unit was in the dock and not and you're like how can it use the floating point unit? It's not even it's like things were slower back then you could do it And so the idea was you're an important professor on the go You've got the thinnest laptop anyone has ever seen. It's like a status symbol But you've also got a full powered computer when you get back your desk because you slide it into That needless to say this trend did not catch on but boy was this amazing technology at the time totally weird And I think it is ample precedent for Apple resurrecting the duo name

1:42:47Not quite the same thing two screens versus a computer that is both a laptop and a not laptop At the same time But I give this name a big thumbs up it makes perfect sense that is none of the awkwardness of ultra We're not arguing about but his cameras aren't as good as the other ones. How is this the ultra? It saves the ultra potentially for the all glass 20th anniversary phone I don't know what's going on. Maybe joss was out that day and it said he's out sick We're just gonna call the duo don't tell him until lunch Uh, but yeah, I phone duo I approve of the name even though I just because this name had been out there forever But nobody was picking it everyone was like yeah duo They're not gonna do full because the Samsung probably it's probably just gonna be ultra because Apple stupid names in that An apple came out of nowhere and did a sensible name Congratulations by the way the power book duo was the first desktop laptop So I think that was I'm literally using that configuration not quite in the same way you think of it though Literally it goes inside the desktop Oh, it was cool. Have I gonna jacked like had an in like a motorized inject mechanism like it would go

1:43:49And like you know, you know, you know, as you shove it in but you didn't have like like a It was like soft closed doors kind of it was really cool Also horrendously expensive if you want to look at the prices and translate from like 90 90 whatever money just it's terrifying $6,200 today wolf there you go. Oh, is that just for the laptop or for the Docker box? It was listed as a $2,610 for just the laptop. I think weren't they sold together? No I okay, I'll forgive me I'll need more time And also don't forget the CRT is on the and the keyboard and mouse keyboard is 200 bucks in 1990's money. All right. I'm not doing all this It was expensive so fast to say a lot of money All right, so Molly and Steve talk about the design uh the Physical design is roughly what everyone expected. It's two cameras About down to the millimeter. Okay down to the millimeter. What everyone expected um, but the software design took me by surprise for sure Uh, there is a right mount dock both opened and closed. There's a right mount toolbar

1:44:50uh, the status indicators for Wi-Fi and cellular are now a circle where in the inside shows you the Wi-Fi like fan looking thing and the bottom of the circle shows the commensurate number of dots to indicate your cellular connection um There's all sorts of oddities with regard to software. We're gonna come back to it in a little bit But clearly they did the apple thing which I mean complementary in a complementary way in this case of Really asking themselves Do we need things to be the way they are? Do we need the dock to be on the bottom? What if we put it somewhere else? Do we need to have a separate Wi-Fi indicator and cellular indicator? Can we combine them? A lot of this is very very different and No matter how hard we try to paint you a word picture I I think it's best served for you to take a look at least at this portion of the video or somebody's recap on like you to or tick talk Or what have you and see the way the software is on this phone because it is Starting startlingly different than then just hey, let's put iOS on a phone with two screens

1:45:54It's way different than that and this is all in service of as they began most part of the presentation All of this software stuff that we're gonna talk about even more is in service of making an interface on a phone that is shaped the way this is and so that's why they started with Why did we make it this kind of squat way? Why don't we do what other people do where they take two regular looking phones and connect them side to side and put a hinge on it Uh, and they explained they said we don't do that because that's kind of a waste of space because the things people might want to do with the big screen If you want to watch like letterbox You know video from a television show or movie. It's a massive waste of space It sometimes can be not much bigger than a phone turn sideways So what are you using all the other space for and like it just it just doesn't work out size-wise to be you know It's you don't get all the benefits so like we started from We want it to be this aspect ratio when it's open because then you can use it in portrait and in landscape and in both of those modes You get maximum benefit from having a big screen because you don't have such waste that space above and below let our box video And in portrait it's like a little iPad and we know how useful that form factor is so they started from that shape

1:46:58And then I I was say the apple thing they did was okay Given that we've decided that this is the shape. It's gonna be it's gonna be short and squat and weird and you know, it's gonna be like this Now what are all the possible ways that we can make an interface on a thing that folds that is this shape and they did all of them They're like what can you think of brainstorm put it on the whiteboard? How could we how could this imagine they have like a physical wooden model? It's just the shape with a hinge like we all had or they you know the people who three printed them Given this shape hardware What can we do with software and they just thought of every possible good idea they could and implemented them all and it's very impressive It is So much for developers to do though. Oh god I think you'll have the seven years that it took Apple to develop this for you to update your house. Oh my god So let me just now that we're on this topic. Let me just outline for people what we're talking about here with with the reality of app development Okay All the work that we were talking about with iOS 27 having like a

1:48:01Re-similar that allows you to resize your app That was one part of making your app work on the duo That was not the hard part that was not the hardest part and that was not most of the work Because what the duo does is as we're saying it's it moves critical and and you know key Navigation elements like toolbars and tabbars It moves them to be you know vertical first of all but not all of them but not yeah and not all the time right It makes them vertical much of the time on the side of your app It changes the safe area ratios completely in addition to the the aspect ratios of the screens And by the way, there's lots of different new aspect ratios to account for you know resizing of the apps and in different split views and everything like that so Critical parts of how apps are built are dramatically restructured and it isn't just restructured in one way There's like six different modes your app could be in all of which layout the controls differently

1:49:08For app developers to even start working on that first of all we need we need xcode 27.1 which doesn't exist yet So this phone is coming out in about a month and a half And for us to start Developing our apps to account for all of its ridiculous new moves of the interface Requires an SDK that Apple says will be available quote later this month So we can't even start yet and What we will have to do to make our apps use these new UI paradigms correctly without breaking let alone to start like being good with them I'd say it's six months of work for most apps maybe a year So I think the reality of What the app situation on the duo is going to be like First of all Every developer needs to buy one of these and and it's a lot of money So for small developers that's going to be a burden. I know that I'm not minimizing that but

1:50:13If you have an iPhone app you're going to have to buy one of these because you're going to have to test with it You're going to have to handle it. You're going to have to see how things are reachable And I have a whole thing about that in a second But this is something where the simulator is not going to be enough You're going to you're going to want the physical device to to design your apps on and test them But the amount of work this is Isn't like adding another size of iPhone. It is a way more involved process than that You're going to see a lot of apps that are going to need complete redesigns to work with this Or to at least take advantage correctly without like weird you know letterboxing and stuff like that You're going to see a lot of that And so the reality of owning this phone for the first year is going to be most of your apps are not going to be updated for this for months I would say Maybe by next summer You know that might be finally like everything will kind of look and work correctly But it's going to be a while And for app developers this is just You know yes, it's exciting as Apple fans

1:51:15But to have this level of change and to have Less than a month and a half to do it And to not even give us the tools to do it on day one That's a real slap in the face like and I'm I'm I'm just I'm excited about the hardware in most ways except for one really giant one I'm excited about the hardware in most ways, but however as a developer This is a huge middle finger to us like They could not have prepared us Less well for this and given us less time Yeah, I want to reiterate where or you know double I don't think double down. I'm using that right But nevertheless I want to double down so to speak. I want Marco just said you know Uh, we don't even have access to the current simulator I know Marcus said that a minute ago. I want to reiterate that They haven't even released the version of xcode that has a simulator for the iPhone duo And they've said it's coming later this month now admittedly that could be by the time this very episode is released But realistically right technically it could be tomorrow Probably realistically though probably not for at least a week or two

1:52:18And we only have what like six weeks until this thing is in people's hands This is a real raw deal for app developers and That is a real bummer and my ask of all of you who are listening to the show if you're even considering buying an iPhone duo Or perhaps have people in your life who are buying an iPhone duo. I beg of you to give grace to especially teams of I don't know one uh that not only need to spend two to three thousand dollars on this phone But then need to spend Days to months to weeks to do or days to weeks to months To get it working right. I know I um repeating what Mark would just said But I cannot stress enough. I agree with him wholeheartedly. This is a lot. It's not just two screens. It's Several different layouts in several different configurations You also well, so one of the cool things that the software does now jumping ahead One of the cool things the software does is it lets you know or lets developers know what the state of the hinge is In such a way that you can react to the fact that the phone is slightly closed But not fully closed the idea here is you move some of the important things out of the crease area because that's going to be harder to touch

1:53:25So that's a different mode John I think you put in the show notes a tweet from or a tut from raffa that that indicates some of these and we'll put that in the show notes There's a lot here. There's a lot here and this is not just oh, it's your iPad app, but small-ish No, no, no, no, no, it's way Way more than that And this is going to take a lot of time and we are all going to get them barred with one star reviews And it's gonna suck yeah because also keep in mind like Again, this isn't just new screen sizes because it changes How controls relate out because it dramatically changes safe areas which is you know It's so the for the for most of iPhone recent history There's been safe areas around the top and around the bottom the one of the bottoms around the home indicator around the top It's around the the island and the idea of the safe area is it's like a layout guide that tells your app You can you can render like background and scrolling content behind these but don't put controls behind them And they're and you know Swift UI and app kit or a new ikit you know they they Inset the controls to stay away from the safe areas. Well now there are safe areas on the left and right

1:54:30Sometimes and and so what's going to what what the reality of app development and app usage for the next year? It's going to be similar to when the iPhone 10 first came out and introduced that safe area around the home indicator on the bottom Where For the for like two years after the iPhone 10 came out they were frequently still Bugs and apps where some control would end up laying itself out under the home indicator And as a user like you were just you had to like Very carefully try to tap around it or you might as just restart the app, you know to get it to work right It's going to be another two years of that But with stuff on the on the left and right because so many app developers have never considered the possibility of Left and right safe area even though it's been in the API the whole time But not the safe areas were always zero on the left and right so there's probably a lot of app bugs That are going to result from this all of a sudden being a thing that the apps have to have to lay out their uis around so The the type of work this is it's a huge amount of work. It's also going to be just

1:55:35months of bugs in apps and months of broken or non-ideal layouts It's going to be a ton of work and so again like going into this phone I do think this is potentially very interesting But it's going to be very much like a beta for a while and by the way iOS itself probably will also have a lot of those bugs because that's what it does too Like whenever Apple does new stuff with the safe areas lots of their own apps also have these bugs So I would totally expect Similar levels of bugging us with the built-in system controls and system apps as well Apple is not immune to this problem So it's going to be a beta like treat this phone like a beta for at least the first few months Which it might be that that don't before you can get one because the rumors of it being very low production And it's probably going to be very hard to get but Anyway before I move on from from the fundamental design of this thing So it is tux ID not face ID tux ID is in the the slide the side button like the sleep wake button in that area on the right side

1:56:40They they were careful to point out that you can enroll multiple fingers And also you can unlock with your watch which yes you've been able to unlock your phone with your watch for a long time They're obviously trying to remind people hey tux ID's not that bad remember oh we We made it a little bit less bad with all these things anyway We'll see how that proves to be The one thing that I And concerned about with this with using this phone because I am I am going to get one so that I can develop with it I'm going to try to live with it for a few weeks at least but I hold my phone in my left hand and I keep my phone in my left pocket This phone looks like it is very badly designed for holding it left handed The tux ID button is going to be in the wrong spot I guess I'll enroll like my index finger on my left hand but that's one problem But the entire UI is made to be used with your right thumb Holding the phone in your right hand Kind of a shame they can't do the apple watch flip over you know what I mean yeah Well they were if you could hold it maybe you could hold the entire phone up to them

1:57:41But then then the tux ID buttons in the wrong spot like it yeah I know like like I mean you also have the problem of the the camera sensors and live activity and blah blah blah But like it's they're almost close to being able to pull an apple watch and say just use it lefty Yeah, but like I think if you are a left hand phone user I think this is going to possibly be terrible But we'll see I Hope they thought of that or have some kind of you know, maybe it's not as bad as I think but like when I have my little 3d printed mockup of it here from months ago and like if I when I'm holding the 3d printed mockup in my left hand My thumb cannot reach those side buttons on the right like it just it's not gonna reach So I don't know this could be really bad you gotta come around the other side like uh like you're going around the neck of a guitar And use like your pointer finger to get at those Yeah Yeah, no for the lefties this could be rough and I wonder if there'll be some sort of software toggle to move the Like navigation bar and all that stuff that's currently on the right hand side to the left hand phone You're gonna break my layout down No actually it already does that for if you have if you have it open and you have a left right split and you have a one on

1:58:47One app on the left one up on the right then the app on the left gets its navigation stuff put on the left Oh, there you go Yeah, the question is whether or do that when it's closed Well, they might have not shown everything although speaking of like this being updated and everything Given my many many years experience with plain old iPhone and before that iPod touch rectangles and their ability to relay out the screen when I rotate to from between landscape and portrait and various apps And how buggy that has been for the entire Decade of the iPhone I look at this and I'm like oh man This is like that times a thousand because it's not just one rectangle rotating vertical to horizontal It's like all right. What angle is it at how open is the hinge? Is it one app or two like I can't I'm looking at every demo they gave look beautiful and perfect with all their built-in apps And it's like they call them poses here's all the different poses this device can be and it can be Portrait or landscape are closed or closed landscape are closed portrait or half open portrait or half open landscape or Like it's like wow

1:59:47There's a lot of poses and they would transition between all look how smoothly we transition between all these Starting from like the cool effect or when you open it up makes it look like the top is transparent And you're looking through to the thing all the way down to like rotated and bend the hinge and put it landscape Everything was beautiful in these in these videos, which I assume had simulated images on the screen But I couldn't really tell because I've heard that the screen is actually kind of matte finish So maybe it wasn't real but anyway Wow, that's a lot of opportunities for like oh you know when you rotate the phone like oh it didn't rotate or some Half part of the UI rotated and some other part didn't and it's like or you ever see it like you were trying to watch a video And the video will be poking out of the side because it's not rotate like If we can't get basic rotation right at this point How is anything including apples built in apps going to be as perfect as it was in this video like the ideas are all great But I'm really really worried about just the basics of implementation involving Not just accelerometers, but now also Hinge sensors and all of that working together with the app. So we'll see like the video made it look Beautiful and perfect

2:00:48But I know from experience with regular phones that it's not going to be the case And this is just with apples built in apps which have had the most time possible to get it right And that was one of the questions everybody had is like What will your app look like if you don't update it to understand the iPhone duo and apple has videos for that We'll link to apples playlists. They give like a developer playlist of like six WWC style sessions to tell you stuff that you need to know about the phone And in that you'll see screens as hey if your app is built Uh, it was built using something before the iOS 27 SDK Guess what it's going to look like just a phone app like a vertical rectangle Shaped right in the middle of the crease when you have the thing open Which is like the worst possible place for it. I mean, I guess granted you probably won't bend it And then when you have it closed Yeah, that whole right side where all the toolbars will be that's just empty like basically your phone app is just a phone app If you built with the iOS 27 SDK your phone app is still just a phone app But when you have the thing fully open it's more like a wide phone app And that's the only thing we could do with the simulator that we had like now like the I the the Xcode 27 simulator

2:01:52You could try your app wide and not wide wide and not wide All of those is not how you want your app to look. It's going to be disappointing to you But more importantly someone who just spent two grand or more on a phone It's going to be disappointing to them because they're like I spent two grand on this phone I want to open up the screen all I do is I see a light up set of pixels That's like the same size or smaller than my old phone screen sitting in the middle of a sea of blackness And they don't know it's because that app hasn't been updated yet or whatever But it'll be really disappointing because it's like what what benefit am I getting out of this two thousand dollar phone In fact, it's worse than a regular phone because it's shorter And I have fewer pixels lit up and there's just this giant way of space around it So This is I mean, it's a problem for developers and like oh you have to update my app and people will be mad at your apps Or whatever but mostly it's a problem for Apple because customers are going to be disappointed If they get this expensive thing and like the only apps that look decent are apples built in ones for a pretty long time Yeah, that all being said and I think all three of us myself included are being kind of you know

2:02:52Downers at the moment, but the hardware does look extremely cool I'm still unconvinced I would want this as a full-time daily phone although Currently, that's probably my plan at least for a little while to live with it and see how it feels But the hardware seems to be very slick They talked about how they have a variable torque hinge when it's open. It is the thinnest iPhone ever They may brief mention of something being in the camera plateau just like the iPhone air and then later they were showing like mocked up Internals of the phone and it looked like the CPU was kind of dead center So I'm not entirely sure which one of these is real or maybe I misunderstood. Oh, you skipped over the FaceTime camera I want to give a comment. Oh, sorry. Yes, the FaceTime camera is under the screen As the rumor said and later in the video they showed how it's under screen But if they showed like oh here's what it looks like actually we leave out like a whole bunch of the The sub pixels, you know instead of having RGB RGB or whatever pattern that they have they leave out a bunch of them basically making it like a Like a window screen so that more light can get through to the camera

2:03:54Uh Earlier in the video when they were showing I guess it must have been not simulated image I guess I might have been a real image on the phone. They were showing images of the the iPhone do an unfolded mode or whatever Uh, I thought like wow this what a weird uh You know mistake for Apple usually so careful they had dust on their sensor when they took this video Because they were because there was a little telltale slightly darker circular region which is what it looks like when you have dust on your camera sensor Uh, but and then I was like maybe it's not dust on the sensor of Apple's camera Maybe it's a smudge on my protest by XDR which I never touch on like how is that possible? Did someone come into my house and touch my screen? But then they scroll the worst like crimes someone can commit against you. Yeah, yeah It is would be terrible But then they like scroll the iPhone off screen like all the valuables just don't do that Like like the iPhone like the iPhone that they were showing a picture of like lifted up and like they basically They moved the cameras. It was pointing down and when that happened The smudge moved with the phone. I'm like

2:04:55That wasn't dust on the sensor and that's not a smudge on my screen because in both of those cases It shouldn't have moved dust on a sensor shouldn't move and smudge on my screen shouldn't move when the iPhone moves in the in the frame Well, that was Was the clearly visible circular section of the screen that the face ID camera is behind And if I could pick it up in Apple's video I have to think that's going to be visible to the naked eye looking at this phone Which is pretty disappointing like the whole point of putting it under the screen is I don't want some portion of the screen that I can't use And also I don't want to like see it's like it's invisible. It's it's gone I guess you can still use that portion of the screen But if that portion of the screen is essentially a dimmer circle Because it literally has fewer light up pixels in that area than the rest of the screen That is another disappointing Limitation of how they chose to this phone. I almost rather have just the plain old like dynamic island cut out thing Just make that bigger because at least that's an honest like look We had to make this so that the camera could see out of it when instead they did this under screen thing and

2:05:56In the video in Apple's own video It's not look good. So I'm a little worried about that. I mean, I think the the reality is like you know You're gonna see the the the crease after a while to like you didn't see the crease in the video You didn't but you know most of the hands-on videos so far basically said like yeah, you do kind to see it And you know, we don't know how this is going to age over time like you'll you'll probably see it more over time So I think the reality of using this kind of devices like You're not gonna have a perfect uninterrupted span of screen and you don't already with today's phones Like you know you have the cut out for the camera and then dimic island island stuff like it's fine You know you kind of you get used to it you stop seeing it That's probably gonna happen here too You know you will eventually notice the crease if you don't notice it on day one like you'll notice the crease You'll notice the the dim little circle where the cameras under the screen and You'll notice it for a day and then you stop noticing it. It'll be fine Well the thing is with the dynamic island. I don't look at that unless there's a live activity around it

2:06:58But with the thing under the screen there could be content under that And so I'm forced to look at it to read the content or to watch the thing that's over there And now I'm forced to see that stupid smudge. I don't know. Well, we'll see how it looks in person John This is the liquid glass era. There could be content under everything. They're usually is it's It's but but we're spotlighting your content our controls float over your content But like be careful don't put your stuff under there because you won't be able to get to it But you can see it sort of but it's blurry but that's just not a great idea although I also will point out like you know we always talk about the signals apple sense to developers about upcoming changes and obviously when they have the simulator and the touch stuff from her like you know Well, the touch stuff for touch max when anyway the simulator being wider for wider phones and we're like yeah, that's for the That's for the um the foldable phone obviously and we were right although there was much more to it than that as we already said But one of the other things that is so clearly for the foldable phone that I don't think a lot of people clocked But the people have been complaining about for at least a year now maybe more I forget when they started doing this was The new like toolbar arrangement where you don't get to pick where the your toolbar items are

2:07:59You just get to say like this is the primary one And this is the tertiary second from left second most important third cousin one and you're like you give them all these semantic names And it's like why don't you just lay let me lay them out This is the first one the second one the third one the fourth one and when the overflow just give me an overflow menu And Apple's like no just tell us the role they provide and that was 100% for this stupid phone Because what they do is they take your toolbar and they say okay your primary secondary you're gonna be here Unless your primary is a wide button then that's gonna be on the top in which case you're gonna have your primary Interniary and third cousin on the right like They split up the things in your toolbars according to their roles and put them where they think they should go sometimes They're on top sometimes on their side sometimes they're top of the side sometimes at the bottom the side sometimes They're on the left sometimes they're on the right and if you had a toolbar API that said tell me what goes in and Position one two three and four this would never work So those semantic positions that have been driving developers Up the wall for such a long time because like I don't have enough control over my toolbar Just tell me where things should go

2:08:59Apple should have said you're gonna have even less control of your toolbar pretty soon. So get used to it Oh, and if you did a custom toolbar good luck I mean honestly this is this is part of why I'm I'm dreading all the work that I have to do now because I have done a lot of custom work here and there like because when it this is this is the the story is old as apple development time That like apple gives you the stock widgets and controls and everything that work As long as you're making like you know the ice cream stand wbc developer sample app And in the moment it interacts with the real world like oh well It doesn't really fit this need I have or this use case or this condition in the real world So I have to start doing a little bit of customization or workarounds or something or re-implementations of certain things And then apple goes and does something like that it breaks all of that like this is just the cycle of Apple development But the reality is that you do often have to do that kind of stuff to make a good app

2:10:01So this constant cycle always exists like one of the one thing about about this current You know what I'm seeing here like we've been hearing for a while and the iOS styles have been for a while Pull stuff away from the edges Why Okay, well for a while we thought the reason was they were gonna do that rumored 20th anniversary phone that that was like all glass curving or the Screamy curve around the edges and they still are and yeah, they might still be doing that we'll see but We thought it was for that it's also for this because now they're saying oh we're gonna put controls on the left and right edges So therefore you can't have UI that goes all over the edges it won't look right or it'll it'll go into the controls Or it'll get cut off or weirdly so but at the same time now we have to we have to design our uis to pull everything in from the edges Except to do that requires the whole UI to be narrower and to waste Space on the left and right that we weren't wasting before which means when you render one of those on display zoom on and on a smaller phone

2:11:01It's not gonna fit. So it's gonna be very difficult for us to develop and design the same UI to work on say An iPhone 13 mini or an iPhone SE with display zoom on To have that same UI fit and work on a modern iPhone duo that you have to pull everything away from the edges I mean, that's what they're trying to get you to do with like flexible toolbars and stuff like they tried to show it Is like look basically the the place you're gonna get to draw is going to be similar to a traditional iPhone Proportion is just that all your toolbars that you used to have on the top and bottom We've chucked to the four wins to the sides, but some items are still in the top like it's They're like if you just use our standard controls and you didn't try to do anything custom and you did it just the way we did it your Apps actual content should still roughly be phone proportion It's just that phone proportion thing is gonna be that rectangle is gonna be moved all over the place And all the things that you had on top and bottom are now gonna be squirming all around the sides of your phone But you don't have to worry about that because if you follow their APIs and use standard controls That'll all be taken care of but like you said Marco nobody is only user most most after-lipers are not only using standard controls

2:12:06In the standard way with no customization because that would be very boring out And in fact apple discourages that like what wins 80As It's nothing that has like really You know bog standard controls. It's all rich custom designs So like apple encourages developers to go custom and to make very you know Very you know elaborate custom rich design as I was saying like Apple encourages this they they push for it and the market rewards it and so So For them to keep to keep saying like oh well if you use standard controls you call these behaviors for free But don't you standard controls that much like if you know it does create this this friction, but anyway It's gonna be so much work And I'm sure we'll get to a place where it's where it's good eventually But it's it's a lot of work to do in a very short time yeah I mean like we did with the iPhone 10 there was a long time where there was like non-iPhone 10-7 apps And it's some of the stragglers or whatever We eventually did get over the hump. So I just I do want to give lots of credit for the very thoughtful really good

2:13:07Software designed to fit this hardware. I don't know if the hardware is any good I don't know if this is the right shape her phone I don't know if it's useful to carry people like it blah blah blah But but again starting from the premise that the phone is this shape and has the hinge here Amazing job on the software just really clever thoughtful and like I said they did everything like when they saw them turning it upside down Like a little tent and it turns into an alarm clock I'm like okay now you're just showing off like they're just We had to we should continue on because there's so many cool things they do with this software wise with their own apps to show like the things though They did a lot with the software like you were saying they specifically said they took advantage of liquid glass in order to make this work They like I said have the status bar basically is a circular widget in the corner You could have two home screen pages at one side by side you can have two apps side by side If you tap the little knuckle handle whatever you call it thing in the center between the two apps You can link them together as one unit even if it's two different apps Jaws eventually came up in the dark as always and said that the the interior display is a 7.6 inch super red

2:14:11And XDR display 50% larger than the pro max and 80% larger over the pro the outer display is 5.4 inches Which is 90% of the pixels of the iPhone 18 pro They said that later this year it will work with the apple pencil with usbc So I have a a second Jan apple pencil pro The one that only ever charges via magnets on my iPad pro that will not work with this I don't think But rather the one that you can plug in via usbc by I think it's like a little section near the top that you kind of open up I've never actually had one That will later this year work with either display interior or exterior which is kind of cool Yeah, that is really like finally an an iPhone sort of an iPhone With Apple pencil support that's really cool. You see a stylus they blow it. Yeah, right This excites me like I because I again like I love the idea of the Apple pencil and I love using it sometimes

2:15:12I just am not really an iPad person. I almost never have an iPad with me So this is very promising also this type of pencil the usbc one I most people don't know there's a there's an entire world of very inexpensive Apple pencil compatible pencils from other brands that like that work exactly the same now as the apple pencil Like natively with every modern iPad and they cost like 25 bucks like they're they're way cheaper than apples They're all over Amazon is a bunch of different brands that make them and so If this works the same way which I it probably does Um because they're all usbc and you plug them into sync them and then that's it. They're synced they're done Then this will probably work just fine with those two which means there will be a rich third-party ecosystem of Like little stubby pencils that will work with the duo That'll be great So I think this this could be very exciting for lots of lots of different use cases for the for the pencil that this could be This could be wonderful

2:16:12So one of the things they mentioned when they went over the screens And like their construction and all the different layers and how they fold and how they're fighting the crease and blah blah was they talked about the very top layer Which I figure what they described as some kind of polymer material blah blah, but basically the top layer that that you touch with your finger is plastic Some special exact kind of plastic but plastic not glass Even though other layers of the thing of the sandwich may be glass and that is relevant to the stylus because Presumably they picked a plastic that is harder than the tips on their own Stylus or whatever but but if you're looking for a way to potentially mar your screen Using a stylus with force on it especially around the crease area is probably a strong candidate So I do wonder how that's going to work out That's also one of the reasons that maybe I'm I don't know for some of the reasons But it makes sense to me that this screen would be have like kind of a matte finish to it Kind of like the paper like covers that they have for iPads or the nanotexture iPad And that if you are going to draw on it with a pencil

2:17:12It's not as much fun to have a slick glass thing with a smooth plastic thing sliding over it and so yeah, this is Nano textured plastic laser etched nano textured plastic that hopefully your stylus won't mar up Yep They have speakers on the top of the bottom like we said no face ID but touch ID which bums me out I get it but it bums me out The colors are star white in night sky And they talked a lot about how it's very robust very stiff Uh that they have a million layers on the display on the interior Uh, there's ceramic shield on the back and ceramic shield two on the front It's also IP68 rated for dust and water resistance Which is a maximum depth of six meters for up to 30 minutes Uh, which is the same as the f-18 pro this is a I think a pretty vast improvement from all the android ones Which are not at all this robust I found this shocking because as we all know with the foldable phones or maybe you don't ever have And thought about it there's a region of the screen

2:18:12That is in the middle of the crease that is not like a fixed permanently to something because it has to bend and it can't crease You know the phone folds completely shut But you can't have a crease like that bends on itself to that degree with the screen You need some kind of curve radius and so the phone always has the the hinge always has a place for the screen to go So it can curve more gently and not snap in half or break Which means there's like an air gap for the screen to go into and how do you water seal something that has an air gap Well, there must be a part where the screen joins the rest of the phone and becomes a fix to it again And that has to be water sealed if that crease and same thing the other and that has to be sealed in the hinge itself has to be sealed Obviously sealing up the parts where like the batteries and the SOS are they know how to do that It's like a phone, but that screen interface to the rest of it I'm amazed that they were able to pull this off and it makes it even more angry though all their laptops die if you For the tiny bit of water on the case But like The fact that this has and I looked up the thing like according to their spec pages This has the same waterproofness as an iPhone 18 pro which is amazing for a folding phone

2:19:16So up someone on YouTube but both tries out a big and scratch screen with an Apple pencil And also puts this thing in a couple of water and see how it does I mean, I believe them, but it like another amazing technical feat and like I said last time we were talking about the iPhone air exit interview I also imagine that using what they learned from the air this thing is incredibly stiff and incredibly sturdy But you can bet even though I'm totally not buying one of these that I will go to the Apple store as soon as they have them and play with it Extensive you should buy one, but I know I'll never convince you never never never This is your job John it's not my job to buy everything that Apple releases That's not the job of a critic the job of a critic is not to buy everything that Apple releases Don't case you don't worry the job John's job is to buy the things we don't want to buy I guess I mean Well, there's a million places I can go from here, but I will walk away Hey, so Craig came up and he had a bunch of things to say including that there is a new minimalist wallpaper view on the lock screen We're basically everything gets out of the way and you just see your giant wallpaper You can do two ups but if you multitasking like I was saying you can also launch a second window of the same app if supported

2:20:20The example they gave is two safari windows Like I said earlier you can tap on the divider to pair apps for a kind of spaces like experience You can pin a video to the top while multitasking Hand to god. I'm not kidding. This looks so hot because there's so many times I want to do two things at once and one of them is just have a video Not literally in the background, but figuratively in the background And this lets you pin the video to the top and you stall plenty of space bet down below genuinely excited for this We had talked about earlier you can use in various different orientations what they call poses You could do a tent you can do an owl Including with a video in the like vertical portion of the owl or the owl being like a laptop if you will A video on the quote unquote laptop screen and the controls where the keyboard would be They were very excited about Netflix which gave a demo of their edits to their app that supports this Yeah, Netflix will won't do anything for the vision pro but make a foldable phone and it fixes there And indeed Speakers will react to the position of the hinge to try to make things sound right

2:21:22including when things are partially folded IOS like I said earlier will try to move junk away from the crease wherever possible You can do standby even when you're not charging if you recall standby is when you put your phone in in a landscape position But it only turns on when the phone is charging in this case you can do standby even when it's not charging when it's in like tent mode if you will This makes for a very good bedside clock including they made brief mentioned and I don't think they showed it of wake up with a gentle glow So this could wake you up. I just brightening the screen over time which is uh the way I don't typically wake up to an alarm But when I do that's how I wake up is there's a light next to my bed that glows that very nicely And that is much less jarring than you know your wrist vibrating or an alarm playing um They brought Johnny's Ruge out for the display. It's so weird. I'm like wait what chip is he gonna talk about yeah exactly He's not talking about chips now. He's the head of all hardware. Okay. Oh, that's what oh Using right like why is he out there but like he got elevated to be like hardware guy and hey, this is hardware

2:22:26That's right So always on HDR 120hz display with p3 thousand nits typical 1600 nits for HDR 3000 nits outdoors one knit minimum brightness. This is all the same as the iPhone 18 pro and 17 pro The resolution the interior resolution is 1878 by 2670 at 430 ppi The outer resolution is 1398 by 2034 at 460 ps i want to ps i ppi which is 30 ppi better It's interesting. This is a ppi difference I'm not quite sure what they chose is that the outer screen is just so much easier because it's flat It doesn't bend. It's got ceramic shield on it So it's scratch resistant like all the things that the inner screen is not the outer screen can be and I just for whatever is And they picked a different ppi Which is also weird because like they again they show the the little opening animation It makes it seem like the cover of the book so to speak is transparent And that when you're opening it up you can see the on the screen underneath like they do it's all an illusion

2:23:27This is kind of like the when the back of an orange iPhone 17 pro looks like the same color as the surrounding thing from one particular angle this illusion They show looks really cool from any other angle It's probably it's like watching someone do like a A scene in the volume at ILM, but you're not looking from the right perspective and all the background looks wacky So we'll see how that looks but yeah, they have to match that and they're matching a 460 ppi front screen to a 430 ppi back screen To maintain that illusion. So little weird, but I mean I guess it makes sense So they have a perceptually flat matte surface. I did see a handful of videos Tyler Stalman put something that I'd seen on Instagram I don't think I'll be able to find a link for the show notes especially since I think it's a story Which means it'll disappear But From what I could tell from video so asteris double asterisks dagger double dagger It did look like the crease did disappear visually Now my understanding is you can still feel it But it sure looked like it just disappeared. This is very TBD. Don't take that as fact. I've not seen one person

2:24:32We will see but I was impressed that was the whole pitch of the top layer was like Hey, the crease is gonna be there and we can't stop it But we're gonna put this fuzz less than other I guess the other reason of the matte texture We're gonna put this thing above that that's gonna diffuse the light because the way you pick it up If you've seen lots of reviews of these folding phones is you get a specular highlight of the crease right It's like that the light gathers there reflects as a little curve portion You get a specular highlight it makes it super obvious they're like this screen No specular highlights everything is diffuse. We're gonna put this to and you know the the plastic rumply laser coated thing on the top of it Also may have a crease in it but because it's so diffuse because it is so matte It dampens down. It spreads the specular highlight. They would highlight. Huh highlight where the crease is over a larger area Think that's the idea and that's why I believe especially with a brand new model that they just put out in front of the press Did it might actually not be possible to see the crease with the naked eye especially if the screen is bright, you know So they talked a lot about how they made all this work like I was saying there's a gazillion layers to the screen

2:25:33With a dizzillion different materials involved But one way or another they do their best to try to make this look and feel as good as possible The a20 has a display engine with the dual display support and under camera display support It has a 35% higher sustained performance over an iPhone 17 pro not the 18 It has the C2 cellular modem which they specifically cited and this is the first time in an apple cellular modem 5G millimeter wave in the US which is a feature that I absolutely love Didn't why was fairly convinced that it was never coming to an apple modem partially because I don't think anyone uses it including me anymore, but man when you have it it's incredible At the C2 is supposed to be way way more efficient fast droplets etc The duo is e-sim only worldwide There are two batteries. There's one on each side of the phone that Operates seamlessly as one you get 31 hours of video playback on the inner display 44 on the outer display because it's smaller less to

2:26:35illuminate 24 hours of usage per charge 50% charge in 20 minutes by wire Five hours of video on the outer display after five minutes of charging Conspicuously absent from the keynote which got me very nervous was any mention of mags a for whatsoever They did say that one of the that the back of the closed When it's closed that the back is ceramic shield one which would Know that mags a if it's in the notes somewhere. I'm getting there darn it So the fact that it's glass on the back made me think maybe it has mags afe or maybe that's just for you know Cellular and radio and whatever But no it does turn out as John ruined for me, but that's all right. It's all right It does indeed have mags afe although I did see somewhere that it specifically sites in like the comparison that you can use I forget these specifics, but it's something like you can use Shoot all right. Where is it? I can't find it either All right, well, oh there we go. I see it So mags afe wireless charging up to 25 watts with 30 watt adapter or higher

2:27:35Compatible with mags afe cases while it's wireless chargers and more although I don't I think that's wrong I think the duo is not compatible with wallets if I recall correctly I think I copied and pasted that from their comparison page So maybe they compare pages wrong, but it seemed like they had the same kind of entry as everything else Yeah, maybe I've got it wrong. I don't know did just go do a little investigation But the point is we had heard okay no face ID true Bums me out, but we'll see how the touch ID is They we had heard no mags afe really bum me out because I almost never plug in my phone anymore That turns out to be not true which I'm very excited about and the other thing we heard was that the camera situation was As compared to the pro anyway Not going to be stellar and let me tell you that is Correct and I am very sad about it There is a fusion main camera which has the fake 2x zoom where they do a crop of The full frame it does do 4k 120 frames per second video no variable aperture no apple reference image support The zoom levels are half

2:28:37One in 2x as compared to the pro which is half one two four in eight This means there is no telephoto. There's a ultra wide and a main camera. There's no telephoto and you boy is not happy about it Y'all not happy What do you want to do? But that's alright. It's fine. Oh, it doesn't have pro raw either For the selfie camera is also lesser. It's 12 mega pixel center stage instead of 18 on the 18 pro and max That's right the interior camera the under screen camera is not nearly as good. Oh, it does have a dual dual capture facetime thing which is nice Yes, so we're jumping ahead of us slightly but that's totally fine. It does dual caption facetime so you can do Dual capture like when you're recording video But you can also do duo facetime which is where the you're holding it open and you're seeing the other person and yourself and at the same time the back display what would normally be the outer display is showing the remote Person so that somebody else that's not you that's looking at the back of your phone can also participate in what's going on

2:29:42Which is very very slick. I'm curious to see maybe they showed it and I just didn't catch it I'm curious to see what this looks like on the other side of the call Do you get two views to like do you get both the view of me and the view of Marco in front of the Back camera. I don't know but I mean I think ultimately like the the dynamics of having a screen that can face the same way as the back cameras That's going to sell a lot of these in lots of different ways because think about like you know they showed it for two seconds in the video but Being able to take a selfie using the best camera on the phone Is a huge advantage of foldables because the back you can use the back camera While looking at a screen and you can see what it's taking like that changes so much about taking pictures So that like I think a lot of people are gonna buy the folding phones and and stick with them forever for that reason alone And they showed it it's also its own stand which goes great with the future they have where like it waits for everyone to be looking at the camera and staying

2:30:47Stells to take the picture so you don't have to use timers or anything but it is its own stand You just put it into a little L shape you point it where you want everyone gathers in front of it the smart software waits until everybody is looking at the camera and takes the picture Like this is what I think they like thought of everything they had the thing where like you're taking a picture of a little kid So it shows a little animation of snoopy on the screen that they can see to make them smile So just just every good idea that they had they put into this phone software wise. Yep Yeah, that's called kid cue where they show snoopy or perhaps other things on the outer display such that kid is very And mused and smiles we mentioned the smart take thing which is where it it will hit the shutter on its own once and things everyone is ready The they have a couple of cases they have an iPhone duo folio with an integrated kickstand I can't decide if this is the least appealing case of ever seen or the most clever case I've ever seen I mean kudos for them for just saying look we're gonna we're gonna try it We're gonna do cases like we know third parties are gonna do them So what Apple do a case? Yeah, it reminds me of like the the original iPad case where like apples like yeah We think the iPad might need a case. How's this in our rooms like nope? That's not it

2:31:49But could try I look at these and I'm like is that it? I don't know. It's it's something Yeah, they also have a duo case which has two parts that wrap around each half Starting price as we all pretty much expected to grand for 256 gigs That's better than a lot of the people but it's so the prediction is like oh how much is this gonna cost? I mean they got it 1 9 9 9 9 right that is I think the lowest End of any of the predictions I saw was like maybe they'll get it for $2,000 and everyone's like no It's not even gonna start under that. It's gonna be more so good as for Apple for Again, beating expectations for the base price of what this very expensive phone would be Yeah, and I think I think that makes it pretty reasonably competitive with the other folding phones in the market Yeah, they're all in this same price range and In if you know for Apple to be shipping like they're you know their top of the line implementation of these ideas for Apple prices and for it to be competitive is pretty impressive Yeah, so it'll go up to two gigabytes But again two grand for two and 56 gigs pre-orders start on October 16

2:32:52They're available on the 23rd And that was the entire presentation. I'm gonna circle back in a second to more phone stuff But what we did not see in this presentation Which I'm not happy about No new Apple TVs. Hopefully they're gonna do some like home oriented presentations sometime in like October Or at the press release product or press release product. I'd be fine with that I think I do it with like the The home part of the screen thing this would fit right in there Yeah, I don't think there was ever any chance of Apple TVs being this event because the pattern they followed for many many years is like the iPhone event in a Royce of timber is iPhones and Apple watches and basically nothing else And then later I guess AirPods in this case too, but and then later on in the fall there's the October event and that's more If there's any max iPads and home products they go in that event So that I would expect Apple TV if they do their like home dock thing like if that makes it into this year that's rumored Um that I respect to be in the October event as well

2:33:53So that's that was never gonna happen this time case. Sorry I know I my intellectually I know that but dammit I want a new one, but don't worry We're gonna be very busy over the next month changing our entire apps or Seriously, so don't worry. It'll the time will fly by I assure you that's very true So let's go back first of all the chat room seems to be very crotchety about the fact that nobody's gonna buy this phone Obviously, I don't know, but let me tell you I really think that this is gonna sell better than any of us including the expect in no small part because Anyone who does any sort of the like prototypical content creation so like Instagram TikTok something like that This phone seems tremendous for that. I'm not saying like shooting a commercial with this phone No, you're gonna get an 18 pro for that But if you're doing more casual now pretty could be professional, but yet uh Seemingly casual content. Yeah exactly. I'm trying not to be derogatory But yes, that's what I'm driving at as an influencer creation device This seems to be Freaking perfect

2:34:54Well actually, I'm gonna say this about the influencer thing of this here's here's what here's the role this fast in the influencer world They're gonna shoot it on their Sony whatever Z whatever, but they'll be holding this phone now That could be never gonna work because it's true. It's a status item like I mean the saving grace of this has is the reports are that they're First of all that they're not manufacturing a lot of them and that the manufacturing is going slower than expected So maybe they'll sell every single one of these they could make and we just don't know how many that's gonna be But yeah, like I think they're apples presentation of this device. Why would you want this? Having not touch the thing with my hands. I don't even have a model from what I saw in the video I'm like, okay, they have a compelling case because like and I was amazed in the ad that they didn't show that some of the most compelling stuff like Show the thing where where the person you're taking a picture I've can tell you that they're not frame right and to move show the thing where it's an entertaining kid and take like Show the thing where it's like a little laptop where the video controls for once do not dim the entire video image So it can show a giant pause button in the middle of it and take three seconds after you hit play to go one two

2:36:00They're okay now undim all the controls can be away from the video like they were in quick time player Seven back in the days when our controls didn't float on top of our content while those days are back again with the iPhone duo like This is an easy phone to sell in ads Not so easy once they see the price tag But I think it will be perceived as a luxury high-end good Even if it turns out that most people don't want to use a phone in this aspect ratio We'll see how that goes because again samsung's out there with their copycat phone in the same aspect ratio but Until this phone on the samsung one I don't think there were a lot of foldable phones in this particular dimension. So it's kind of an unknown But I don't you know, yes, it's horrendously expensive even more so elsewhere in the world But I feel like this is kind of like You know, it's a high-end product that a lot of people are going to buy And you know the bigger question is Follow up phones the do two do three do it in the future Do they keep making this to do they you know? Does it eventually become a mass market product? Is it always just going to be a high-end like how is it going to go in the future

2:37:03But for the very first one I think they're probably sell most of what they can make oh, I think they're gonna have no problem So I think they're gonna sell Literally every single one of them. I think they're gonna be back ordered for months Yep, but great. I want to go back to something instead about aspect ratio I meant to bring this up earlier and I forgot something that occurred to me is that even though I do Mostly like the size of my iPhone 17 pro not the pro max with 17 pro First of all, I am deeply committed to using it with a pop socket because I just feel like it's too big for my hand Anyway, it's too big to use without but I cannot reach past the top like I cannot reach the top quarter of this phone Maybe maybe third third to quarter of this phone and yes, I know that the the pull down reachability whatever you call it thing exists But I can't reach the top of the screen. I Suspect hope that I will be able to reach much more of the exterior screen the outer screen on the duo Then I can on any phone I've had for the last several years and that is genuinely exciting to me now that also does

2:38:03I'm not acknowledging the fact that they've also moved a lot of the things that I would need to reach closer to my thumb as a writing but even still even if stuff is still lingering at the top of the screen I suspect I'm going to have a much better time single handing this phone than I have in a long time now I could be wrong maybe the the extra width will ruin this idea But sitting here ignorance is less And I think this could be a lot better and I'm really really stoked for that you know that didn't show speaking of things reaching things Maybe they showed it on of the the WWC style developer videos, but like in open book mode whatever that mode is called in landscape Do they do like a split keyboard like the iPad you staff? I that's another thing I meant to bring up. Thank you I don't think they ever showed a keyboard No, I think text input is going to be a big question mark on this because like yeah, yeah one thing I've always I've always hated using the on-screen keyboard on iPads even iPad minis Yeah, becuase like the size of it is just it's like it's just wrong It's not what my thumbs are used to on the phone But it's too small to use like a real keyboard like it just it it never felt right to me

2:39:07And I think that's going to be a Challenge for this phone because basically However, you're going to use this phone You're going to have at least two different sizes of the on-screen keyboard because if you use it closed That's going to be one size of the keyboard But then if you open it even if you hold it in portrait opened It's going to be way wider so you're going to constantly be shifting between Different physical sizes of the on-screen keyboard that I think is going to be weird and maybe not good That's why I think maybe in landscape that they'll bring back the split keyboard I don't it's not ever go away and I've had it if people just not use it anymore Um, I think it's gone, but it was I mean it wasn't good because again even then like you're changing You're changing the physical layout of it So even if you move the on-screen keys into you know different rows set instead apart from each other You're still changing the physical layout of the keyboard between different orientations So I I think that's going to be maybe a tough thing for people to get over Well, it's become popular people will carry this with them much more than they would ever carry it

2:40:09And I've had because it does folding can fit in their pocket so maybe people will Become accustomed to typing in landscape like they did on those Sidekick hip-tops sidekick things and like I think people will get used to any form If they use enough I think the outer screen like the the book closed screen That's fine. That's just the phone keyboard you'll be fine with that But if people end up texting with this thing opened in portrait or landscape I think people will get used to whatever form they put it in I imagine most people will be messaging With the thing closed, but we'll see we'll see it close because like when it's when it's closed The screen is pretty short And so I think like you're not going to be able to fit a lot of your content above the keyboard when it's closed It's like the original it's not it's still big on the original iPhone I think it was plenty of emergency text messages Yeah, but it like my my guess is what's going to happen is people people who get this are going to end up Unfolding it and using it open for almost all messaging just because they will want the keyboard to be like one size that they're used to And they'll want more space to actually see what they're what they are texting, you know

2:41:13So all in all I Feel like this device that iPhone duo is an exercise and compromise which is what we all expected You know, we don't have face ID, but we have a pretty solid touch ID in theory We don't have the world's greatest cameras, but we have decent ones The the hinge sounds like it's good the crease sounds like it's mostly disappeared The matte screen is going to be really nice especially in like sunshine. That should be really great There's a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses, but I have to say In a lot of ways this does seem like Uh, uh, return to form for apple in so far as it's well considered It seems like they've done their best job as we were talking about earlier in making in re-examining all their priors and saying does the doc need to be on the bottom Does does the toolbar need to be at the top, you know and so on and so forth The animation when you open it I forget if we even brought this up The animation when you open this we see kind of like a fuzzy bit like a reflected fuzzy bit on the left hand side is

2:42:14Oh, that was genius that is apple at their best exactly Incredible so like is it dumb kind of but it's incredible I think that adds so much to it and that That animation as you're opening it is the apple that the three of us probably most of you listening to the show That's the apple we want that is the apple we want and I am so excited to see even a glimmer of that apple That's what I'm talking about so we were Marco and I particularly are very embittered very grumpy grumpy very offended about the way the developer story is on this phone Oh, it's a mess. It's a mess. I say everything to both of us were saying But I want to end I want to turn that frown upside down to end with and say I don't know I will be buying one that's the next thing I was gonna ask is what are you guys doing I will be buying one mark. I said he will be buying one I will at least attempt to use it full time. I don't know if I'll stick with it or not, but I don't think that this is something I want

2:43:15Necessarily, but I am genuinely excited to try it out and I think a lot of the reason I'm excited to try it out is because Not only is the hardware different which in and of itself is novel But the software is so different and again taking off my developer hat and putting on my user hat That's really exciting and let me tell you I am not huge into the selfie But I and I don't FaceTime that often but man some of the things that they're doing around this and we don't need to rehash the last half hour But it's so clever and so cool and the fact that this thing is so versatile I mean, I would argue this is the most versatile iPhone ever and I think that there's so much to like about this Even if you're not in the market for a folding phone which Me the user I'm not in the market for a folding phone me the developer is unfortunately, but me the user not really But even if you're not in the market, I think there's a lot to be excited about and I genuinely think price be damned I think like Marco said a few minutes ago. This is going to sell like crazy And I'm not even just talking developers. I think this is going to sell and sell a lot

2:44:19So I'm in for one Marco you said you're in for one And if you have any other thoughts, I'm happy to hear it Yeah, I mean I again, I think for Developers of iOS apps. I think it's pretty important to get your hands on one of these because There's there's no way that the simulator is going to Give us the real world experience of handling and using the device it can get close It can help us work out the bugs of you know getting our crap away from the sidebars and figuring all that stuff out like the you know It can help us develop like you know the the functional part of the UI But it's not going to help us develop a great design like it's not going to help us be able to test how things handle how things look how things work What makes a good a good design on the duo like we don't really know yet So I think for developers, it's important to have this as a user I Don't think this will stick for me I think the the compromises in Some of the weird sizing of it the text input the you know, not as good camera is not as good speakers like I think a lot of that stuff is going to

2:45:27Irritate me even beyond all that it's heavy It's it's gonna feel like a brick in my pocket and even though it is a smaller brick than in some dimensions But it's it's thick and heavy and I think I I love a lightweight phone and so I don't see myself using it full time to be honest, but I see a Pretty strong reason for me to have one for as a developer. Do you plan to trial it full time at all? Yeah, my plan is basically like I'll get it as soon as I can get it and because I as I mentioned I'm not getting an 18 pro I'm sticking with my 17 pro for the time being so As soon as I can get my hands on a duo like I'm gonna try to order it on day one and see what the ship dates are You know, I'll try to be there right at the beginning even though it's gonna be like isn't like three in the morning or something But I honestly don't know Well, I have to look up, but I'm gonna try to be there on day one But we'll see in the meantime. I'm happily keeping using my orange phone fair enough John I presume you are not in for duo you've all but said that already so what is the Syracuse of family purchasing for this fall?

2:46:27Yeah, I'm just getting a team pro for myself And I will say that if I if I had an iOS app, I would probably give this phone just because like like Marker said like this is such a big change There's no way to Avoid getting this phone if you want if you want your app to take advantage of you don't much wrap take advantage of it Because you're like oh my app. I don't care like it's not you know, it's it's people who buy this phone are not gonna buy my app or whatever Then fine, but like This is kind of one of those things. It's like getting an arm Mac like if you you know, I have the DTK when uh when max went to arm right If you have Mac apps and you know, obviously that the arm Mac DTK thing was cheaper than $2,000 or whatever But like it's kind of one of those things you have to do just to make sure your app works right and work out all the problems or whatever So I would do wonder how what percentage of the people who buy this phone are gonna be developers because I mean it is very expensive But like if you are an iOS developer and you want your app to Take advantage of this you just have to buy the hardware um that's not me. I don't have any iOS apps. So I'm not getting it

2:47:30I showed it to my wife and she I don't think she quite understands like why I don't want a phone like this But I if I could somehow get her to watch that portion of the presentation. I think she would like. Oh, that is kind of cool um I fear her deciding that she wants it because it's a very expensive phone But next year will be her year So when she gets her new phone if she wants to get a fold next year or duo or whatever do oh two whatever is out then That may be the introduction of the duo inter household especially if Pokemon go takes advantage of this screen I was gonna say like could you rimmy run two Pokemon go instances side by side? I know you have to I think I have to be signed into different accounts Maybe if she can do that she's definitely getting this phone Um, she's right now she just she's salivating it my uh the pristine battery in my 60 in pro because she's gonna get this phone goes to the Pokemon mines after I get my new one I mean technically she could run three instances of it so you know one of the back Yeah, one of the yeah and burn the battery down three times as fast she would totally do that if that is supported by the app You know, it's up to the company that's making it to do that

2:48:31um, and I think I tried to describe that opening animation two times earlier made like That's what I was talking about when saying that they're trying to make it look like the front of the book The cover of the book is made of glass and you could see through it That's what you were getting at right, Kasing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean like again I think that effect only works dead on but I'm definitely gonna try that out It I mean, it's kind of like I can see how they came up with that But like I think back to the original iPhone with like the slide animation that works from any angle But it's so much less impressive. This is like way more impressive But only works if you're looking dead on the phone But maybe you're always looking dead on the phone when you open it who knows and it just seems to strengthen me That the kind of thing that they might change kind of like the ripple effect in dashboard. They're like ah right that's enough of that Um We'll see how long this last and also if it that is at all stuttery it kind of ruins the illusion So we'll see how that goes as well, but boy did this phone demo well And then on the C2 chip and the thing with millimeter or everything I was kind of upset when because the rumors were that the like this would get the C2 but the the the 18 pro would not But it turns out that was only half right the 18 pro gets the C2

2:49:34Which means that it has the you know lower power You ball-blot and also millimeter wave so it's like the no compromise You've got the phone that I'm getting will have the apple hopefully good Apple cell radio that still has a millimeter wave even though I've never actually used it So it's like no compromises on features and lower power But for whatever reason the pro max doesn't I wonder if they just couldn't get fab capacity or something or they just had some deal with Qualcomm Or they had to buy Qualcomm chips for something like it's it's mysterious I wonder if anyone will get an apple on the record saying why that split exists but Searching Apple's websites like again, that's that's our mac rumors I can't even confirm that that's entirely the case. I believe it. It probably is but apple is not touting the fact that one of the 18 phones doesn't have the C2 in it But yeah, like they did everything they could with the hardware and software of this phone to give it the best possible chance The compromises it has are compromises they're Necessary for my technological perspective at this price I will say because if they wanted to make this a $4,000 phone it probably could have better cameras You know what I mean? But like

2:50:35Within the realm of how they targeted this product I think the hardware and software teams seem to have done a good job Assuming that the software actually works the way the demo showed it working And we'll see how that goes because especially with stuff like this where There hasn't been a long beta period where iPhone duo Users have been testing iOS 27 beta out in public. No, no one has been testing iOS 27 on this phone except for Apple employees And that is a way smaller group than all the developers in the world So expect a little bit of a bumpy road Best case it's like the iPhone 10 was Worst case it's like the iPhone 10 times three I think I mean there is one difference though first of all I I am extremely optimistic. I think they're gonna sell as many of these as they can make I think it's gonna be way beyond developers who buy it I think it's gonna be a significant hit within the category now that being said they're gonna sell A hundred times more iPhone pros than this but this will be a hit relative to other foldables

2:51:40And I definitely think it will substantially outsell the iPhone air from this past year like I think it will be It'll be a hit but it will still be you know probably less than 10% of of the sales But that that would still be a hit however What makes it different from the iPhone 10 from the developer point of view is that the iPhone 10 was the pro phone of that year And it was what all future iPhones would be like and we knew it So there was a huge volume of customers both there in year one and we knew coming down the pipe So that we had a huge incentive to update our apps to to Make them ideal on that device Whereas we're not gonna have that with this device because this is not the pro phone of this year It will not be the biggest selling phone of this year or probably any year and the future is not gonna be all foldables so This is gonna be a new device family that we have to accommodate But it's not gonna be the one with the most people in it

2:52:42So that might actually slow down development efforts to adopt to its screen for say big companies like you know I can imagine this is gonna be the kind of thing that like you know Google docs for instance like they're gonna take forever Like you know that that kind of app where a company has to justify it It might not have the volume to to motivate that kind of development yet All right, anything else we want to talk about from the event today Oh, they gave a golden gate release date. It's coming out on the 14th Yeah, cool. I'm excited to part um on you this is a question for you to real-time question on the air Is the X-code RC can you submit to the app store from that? Yes All right, well then I got some work to do this week Yeah, we I think we all have a lot Yeah, I mean I just have to submit my already done Tested and I go as 27 builds of maps I Honestly, so I I had mentioned um somewhere else if he was here. I'd mentioned that I had not done any Overcast UI work to lay out for the new phone yet. I am so glad I didn't

2:53:46Because this changes everything like it wasn't just resizing the app. It's like oh move all the toolbars Change the way sheets work add rotation support which overcast has never had like it's a tremendous undertaking like oh Geez, okay, so it yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be some work But at least now I know what I'm aiming for and maybe someday apple will give me the tools to do it All right, thank you to our sponsors this episode Quince factor and 11 labs and thanks to our membership support directly you can join us at ATP.fm slash join One of the many perks of membership is ATP overtime our weekly bonus topic here You are nearly three hours into this episode and just think you could have even more of us because you this is not enough You need more of us you can hear more of us every week by joining as a member ATP.fm slash join this week and over time we're gonna be talking about Apple's new business terms for the EU which sounds so delightful and simple. I'm sure it will be you can hear us talk about that

2:54:47By joining hb.fm slash join. Thanks everybody. We'll talk to you next week Now the show is over They didn't even mean to begin Because it was accidental Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research Mark. Go in case he wouldn't let him because it was accidental It was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm And if you're into master You can follow them C-A-S-E-Y-L I-S-S-S-S-S-K-C-L-S-M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M Antimarko-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C U-S-S-S-E-R-Q-S-R It's accidental Accidental They didn't mean to Accidental

2:55:47Accidental Tech podcast so long Quick after show update on my app jettie that I talked about a couple episodes ago that puts dock like things all around the edges of your screens And last time I talked about it I said I had this weird scheme where I was going to have like a free version on the app store And then if you have the app store version installed and you download the pro version The pro version will sense that you have the free version or not that It'll sense that you have the app store version and then just run for free because you've already paid through the app store And that is a scheme that since then lots of developers have written to me and said oh I do that now And Apple actually hasn't yelled at me about it and some people are like oh not only do I do it But inside my app I tell people to go download the pro version and Apple hasn't stopped me Again that doesn't mean that they wouldn't stop me because there's no consistency in the app store But at least it is something that people have done and not gotten yelled at Tech from a technical perspective is easy to do I've already done But my news is that I've you know, and I said like a ATP members will it could be on the test flight and all the stuff like I did with my other apps

2:56:51And I case you did with his apps So I've been doing that and ATP members have been joining the test flight and doing stuff and I have a slack and Be getting bug reports and doing all the things right And during that process what I pretty quickly discovered is that As I was like fixing bugs and adding features like I would do like the release notes of like okay This test flight build I added xy and z and you know putting you know doing you release notes for your test flight builds um And I kept realizing that like Often when I was uploading the test flight build I didn't have anything to write Because I hadn't actually changed anything in the mac app store version of the app because every single feature I added Was only in the prober Because you can't do anything in the mac app store everything is all private API this and no I can't do that And I know I tried to get like seven different entitlements that would let me do things And Apple was like rejected rejected rejected your app doesn't need this your app doesn't need this you can't have this You know there's no peel process you can't have it you can't have it can't have it. It's like why you even have these entitlements

2:57:51Like you know just if I want to like Oh my god, just some of the entitlements is getting rejected for us like if an app like this can have it If an app like this where you can put like a folder in a dock and click on it and open the folder and put things into it If I can't have the entitlement it lets me do that with arbitrary folders then what app deserves it Because you can put arbitrary folders in a dock like thing and I think Apple's attitude is don't make a dock like thing So I pretty quickly came to the decision This is not going to be in the mac app store. I still have the same project for this jettie and jettie pro But I cannot like an app like this that is any good that has the features that I want it to have the features that I've written for it cannot be in the mac app store So I basically stopped the test flight I took it off the member page at ATP if you at the FM if you go there you'll see I don't even mention the test flight All I say is hey do you want to be on the jettie pro beta Send me an email and I'll add you to a list and I just you know Then you can download the beta and you can test it or whatever So I'm all in on jettie pro which is fun because the first fact I don't be why is it called jettie pro?

2:58:53Where's non pro someday maybe there will be a non pro because in theory I could do a lot of these things in the mac app store If Apple would get let me have the entitlements which they're currently not because I literally got rejected for every single title I asked for And also if they fulfill the feedbacks that I filed over the past five to ten years asking for features that they don't currently provide that they totally should But in pro don't have to worry about that. I just use the private APIs and they can't stop me So that's my plan, but of course. Oh, you're going to have this thing outside the mac app store How do you do with payments? Well, I took a wild diversion off into figuring how to do payments outside the mac app store. I actually implemented it twice Once on fast spring which was by far the easiest to set up in the most full featured and I highly endorse and recommend it because everything else was like a nightmare to even get into um But after that I decided that I'm going to rip all that out and redo it with a combination of revenue cat and stripe mostly because I'm so familiar with stripe

2:59:53I didn't think I could use stripe because it doesn't provide all the functionality I mean, but it turns out a combination of revenue cat which is also very well established and used by lots of developers Combining revenue cat with stripe in a way that revenue cat blesses and describes on their website And has examples of mac apps that do it. I'm like, okay So it was a pain and I wasted a lot of time and I totally ripped out I did a new branch for just revenue cat and ripped out the fast spring stuff and replaced it with revenue cat and stripe And that is my plan and as always like the payment part is the most terrifying and complicated part of the whole stupid app because if you screw it up It's bad so Yeah, that's the state of things jettie pro if you're an ATP member and you want a beta test jettie pro there's instructions on your member page It's still going to be a while because the app is still kind of rough But boy am I adding lots of features and calling lots of private APIs I'm very happy for you honestly this I know this I know you know there's some downsides not being in the mac app store But I think for the kind of apps that you make I think it is good for you to get set up outside of there because

3:00:56You can do so much good without Sandboxing and without you know being banned from using private APIs and so like I think I think it makes sense for john sircusa to have Direct sales of apps that do deep system things. Yeah, getting the first one for sale outside the mac app store It's so much harder than the same. Yeah, of course Like everything has to be done for the first one and by the way I tried paddle and paddle was like talk to the hand Pattles like paddles like show me your product page and your Your refund policy and your terms of service and like I don't have a product page my product isn't done yet And they're like no, we're not gonna talk to you screw you like they're onboarding process was so hostile I was like okay, well then fine like they they made it seem like you already had to have a product for sale to get a product for sale with Paddle and I'm like, but this is chicken egg like I don't understand how I bootstrap this and they just kept rejecting me and sending me through this thing And it's like sorry we looked at your website and there's no product there. I'm like well, of course there's no product There's not released yet. I tried to put a fake page like this is what the product will be like and they're like no Sorry, so

3:01:57Anyway, fast spring was great. I recommend it revenue cat plus stripe If you're familiar with those things revenue cat is more modern and nicer than fast spring was and stripe is stripe But I'm just happy to be familiar with it. So Yeah, I'll and I'll embark on that terrifying part when I find it to the point where I think I have an app that is close to finished But right now I'm still in the development part where I'm discovering that even using private APIs There are certain things that just don't work on the Mac It's just fun Terrible just terrifying like the most recent one was like you know, you can label folders and they they turn colored right and also in like 26 and 27 You can put little symbols on folders. Do you any use those features in the finder? I don't but I know what you're talking about Yes, anyway, you can do that And if you have private APIs you can figure out like what they're supposed to look like which by the way the macOS Doc does not do if you put a labeled folder into the doc on macOS 26 or 27 the doc doesn't care what the hell your label was It will not show it one of the reasons they don't show it is because there's no API to show it Oh, but there's private APIs fine So I get get the private APIs to do that

3:03:00But there is a bug where if you have a folder in iCloud drive and you label it as like red About a half a second later it changes back to gray Oh unconditionally no matter what what color you set it to you set it to red changes to gray Okay And you know like okay, but how does the finder not show it is gray because the metadata is gray Okay, it says gray, but the finder doesn't it well turns out the finder has his own database off to the size that remembers it's supposed to be yellow Oh my god like what the like how does that stand for two releases like how like how does any You once you start using private APIs are like how does anything work in this operating system first Well, you realize where they're private and second of all that's no way to run the know s Okay, well, we we have a bug where the metadata on the folder will always be gray But we want the finder to show it as yellow because the user selected as yellow so finder Have an off to the side database where you keep track of which folder supposed to be yellow We even though the folder totally says gray and when you look at the folder Oh, by the way if you turn off network access if you unplug your land cables one of my testers found this out

3:04:00It stays yellow, but as soon as you connect to the network again gray Okay Weird anyway, that's what I've been doing