#78 - Alison Cheperdak

0:00Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo stash. Got paid back? With the Venmo debit card, you can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want, like game day snacks, gear, tickets, and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fear minimum balance. Sign up now at Venmo.com slash college card. The Venmo master card is issued by the Bankport Bank NA, select schools available. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo.me slash stash terms. Max $100 cash back per month. Hey there folks, welcome to today's program. I don't know about you, but I take etiquette very, very seriously. In a moment, my guest today is the author of a book on etiquette. She actually teaches etiquette at the White House. I'm not making that up. But before we go to my first guest, I want to remind you an important sponsor on this program, mtaxisgoldirray.com. These are our friends at Genesis Gold.

1:01I take this very seriously, not just the fact that they're a sponsor, but I believe in what they do. Please visit mtaxisgoldirray.com. I don't need to tell you why, I think you know mtaxisgoldirray.com, thank you. Hey there folks, welcome. I love etiquette. And so I leapt at the possibility of having today's guest on the podcast. Her name is Allison Shepardak. She's written a new book called, Was it something I said every day etiquette? How to avoid awkward moments, et cetera, et cetera. Allison, welcome. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. I really do love etiquette. Now you actually teach etiquette at the White House. I do. You do? Yes. How did you get a gig like that, Allison?

2:01I worked in the White House in President Trump's first term. I worked in the West Wing as Assistant Staff Secretary. An etiquette was something I was always very interested in. It started when my husband and I were engaged to be married when I was 22 years old and I had all these wedding etiquette questions that I didn't know the answer to. So I got myself my first etiquette book thinking that I would just turn to the pages that had the answers that I was looking for. And I found myself reading that first book, Cover to Cover, and countless books since then. And at the time I was working as a television news reporter and anchor and then I went to law school and I'm practicing law and then I'm working in government and I continued this independent study. I ended up getting a certification in British and North American etiquette just for my own personal growth. British and North American. That's extra credit etiquette. Wow. I would think. That's really that's a great extraordinary idea. But so I'm interrupting you so you got a degree in etiquette. Yeah. A certification through a program that offers it in the US and in Britain and then I was

3:02around other people that had these thriving etiquette businesses and so I saw proof of concepts specifically on social media and I started posting at the time I was working as executive director at the March for Life full time and very happy. And while I was there I started posting on the side and it started resonating with an audience pretty quickly to a point that I was getting speaking engagements and eventually cut a book deal. You pull your curves right. You'll get a shot on the Air Contacts of Show podcast. That's in the future. Keep in mind. That's it. It's not easy. I love etiquette because it's sort of like I guess part of the reason I love it is because in my lifetime people have drifted away from the idea that there's right and wrong and I think there's a renewed hunger for it. People want to know why would I do this or why would I do that. So I mean what's the first thing you say to someone because I think there's for someone

4:05who is averse to the concept of etiquette. What do you say to somebody who's hostile to the very idea that they should know which fork to use for example? So it's not all about forks. It's about recognizing that there's dignity in every human person because of who you are and that we show that dignity through respect and etiquette tells us how to show that respect in various scenarios. Okay now my first real question to you is are you pregnant? No. No, okay, good. That you start your book with that chapter. Yeah. Top a little bit about that because I found it very funny. So I talk about a mistake that I've made and my first line is something like if you remember nothing else from this book do not ask a woman unless you are absolutely positively beyond a shadow of a doubt certain if she's pregnant because it's one of those questions and no one really wants to be asked. And so it's an example of being considerate and realizing that our words matter and that

5:09we should really be thinking especially before we're asking some of these more sensitive questions of someone particularly about their bodies. Clearly if they're not pregnant. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. Well let's just start with I'm fascinated with the idea that you teach etiquette in the White House. Yes. You know when we even when we think of etiquette what do we mean? What are the categories it's it's not just which fork to use although I do want to talk about that but when you you know the idea of teaching it in the White House how does that work in a place like the White House that they would have are there I don't know weekly briefings the way you point things out. So the way that it works is they have a really robust internship program where in the first week or so I teach a seminar and it's largely focused on business etiquette so everything from like how do you introduce yourself how do you shake someone's hand elements of protocol that they should know within an organization such as the White House we do cover things

6:13like dining etiquette so they can feel confident Washington is also a place where there's lots of receptions and networking and things that happen along those lines so we talk about like how do you talk about yourself or how do you express your interest in a certain area or subject matter things like that and just what it means to be a real concept professional and be confident because while there may be some folks who join the White House that don't have a sense of decorum or composure many of them most of them are extremely earnest and they want to do a phenomenal job and the White House internship program is such that many of them do go on to become full-time employees in the White House or other parts of the administration so it's like teaching them from the very beginning like a start. Well there's there's certain things like this that will carry you through your whole life. It's it's not something that ever goes out of you know penmanship typing there's certain basics that you'll you'll have them forever okay so if I'm seated at a dinner and I don't

7:22know the people to my left or my right what are my obligations what how how should I how should I approach that because I I do find I really have a very difficult time with what's called small talk you're not alone many people feel that way and if you're seated at a dinner you have a duty as a guest to be hospitable so everyone needs to be hospitable in some sense whether they are the host or the guest and if you are the guest or you're seated somewhere you want to be talking to both of the people who are seated beside you or everyone that you can see at your table sometimes you're at a very large table and it's helpful to go to events or just go about life with some things that you're ready to talk about so things that you generally want to stay away from when you're first getting to know someone are like money sex politics religion and health status but that leaves a plenty of room money health let's go over this list money sex politics politics

8:25religion religion and health status I would I would give you push back on that a little bit but as a general rule I'll accept it so what does that mean money sex health did you say health status yes so when I say health status I mean like you don't need to tell everyone about your visit to the doctor or even like talking about your diet over a meal like if you're a say you're at someone's home and they make a wonderful spaghetti dinner and then you go on about the benefits of your low carb lifestyle that's the kind of thing that you want to avoid consider rude yes that's but that but it's so funny though because it's it is it is it is a basic thing right oh that I think what I one of the things I like about etiquette is that there are principles involved it's not random weird rules I mean there are principles involved you mentioned hospitality kindness I mean those are the principles behind it and so it's not all

9:30I have to memorize rules or this I have to you know use this spoon in this way but there's there's a reason for it so but so in the White House you're dealing with interns mainly mainly yes okay right and young people they may have grown up in a home where they didn't learn any of this stuff right so what do you start I start by teaching them how to introduce themselves I start by talking about the hierarchy within the White House and their role there I also tell them to remember that their role models even if they don't feel like it because there's many people around the country that would love to have an opportunity like they're having today being an intern at the White House and having access to things we talk about discretion and that just because something isn't classified or doesn't require a clearance doesn't mean that it's appropriate to be sharing with people that don't work at the White House so we talk a lot about dealing with sensitive classified or unclassified materials and then we talk about just the basics in an office that you should know like

10:35what is appropriate to be an email when is it appropriate to knock on someone's door also what does mentorship look like what does it mean to be a good mentee things like how do you reach out to someone for a letter of recommendation or how do you express an interest in a certain role without you know that balance between seeming too forward and not assuming too true that's very tricky balance between seeming too forward or how do you ask so I've also noticed this with emails that I think informality has crept into the culture over the decades of the decades of lifetime I've seen it more and more and more and and it it ultimately leads to sloppiness I mean I guess that's how I would see it it creates confusion so that again there's something about etiquette that it it's helpful to everybody because you know what the roles are there's there's a dance involved and that's appropriate it's like the rules of engagement so to speak so how when you say

11:44how to introduce oneself how should one introduce oneself ideally with their full name and then the full name of the organization or the office that they're a part of if relevant so you don't want to be using shorthand or acronyms and assuming that people know what you're talking about you want to use the full name that's I've noticed this a lot because I I do a lot of speaking and I meet people and so many times people come up to me and they don't give me their name and I read it as rude because you're putting me in an uncomfortable position because I want to be polite and say you know thank you so and so nice to meet you so and so and I don't they're not giving me the they're not giving me the information so that's that's as basic as it gets right you introduce yourself give the person your name and I would even say even if they know your name or even them think they know your name do them the favor of reminding them yes what your name is

12:46and refresh the recollection of when you last saw each other when you last met Alison Shepherd at great to see you we met at such and such a place whenever that happened so you're making it as easy as possible what you never want to do is say you don't remember me do you and put them on the spot also the new I knew I'd like you because you say I mean if I were teaching at a kid this exactly what I would say this happens to me all the time people come up to me and I think help help me yes because I've met so many people yes and also I'm I may be an idiot maybe I should remember you but I just don't for some reason or you know and do me the the the favor of helping me by giving me that information but a lot of people don't do that's real I'm fascinated in a way how many people don't know that I think some people think that it's complimentary to say like you're so important or you interface with so many people that you can't possibly remember me but is not received that way someone says you don't remember me do you yeah you don't remember me do you I mean yeah if somebody says that to me I'd immediately think well I wish I wish I did I really

13:53wish I did maybe I don't but maybe but it is fascinating how when somebody begins to remind you of like it was an event it was in Dallas and you think oh my goodness yes yes and it's sort of you know it comes so yes okay so that's that's basic how to introduce yourself um if you're at a here's a question if you're at a cocktail party and you're having a conversation with someone I've often felt that strange feeling of um maybe I'm trapped in a conversation that either I don't want to be in or the other person doesn't want to be in or we don't either want to be in how do you how do you navigate that because that to me there's I don't want to be rude and I and I I won't be rude I'd much rather be trapped in a conversation I don't want to be in then then be rude but how do you what what are the rules there because I've never understood that well to begin with you should know that most people wish the conversations ended sooner than they actually do but people are afraid to be the

14:53one to end things and then also remember that if you're going to a cocktail party the purpose here is not to talk to the first person that you see for the rest of the evening the purpose is to mix and mingle and to see a lot of folks and so in a perfect world you are very focused in the conversation you are giving the person the gift of your attention there's nothing worse than feeling like someone is looking over your shoulder or you're like a placeholder and they're waiting for someone cooler and more interesting to talk to next and even if that's true which it can be at least be polite enough not to make it obvious yes because I think that's really one of the rudest things you can do in a conversation to someone you might as well just walk away at that point if if you make it obvious that you'd rather be talking to somebody else I want to talk about table manners now they're all different kinds of dinners I've been to dinner at the White House

15:54but most dinners are that formal but what are the basics of dining etiquette so whether you are going to a private home or you're going to a restaurant or something like that you want to put your napkin in your lap first if you're going to a private home you would wait for the host to do so first because you don't want to make it seem as though you're rushing the host along or you're extra hungry or you're okay to hang on that's important so when you're at a restaurant napkin goes in your lap when you put your napkin right in your lap right immediately whether you're hosting the dinner or no yeah no matter what you put it in your lap immediately but when you go to someone's home you wait for the host or hostess yes to do anything the only exception would be if a host says please help yourself like let's say it's a buffet and the host wants everyone to get started the host generally means that if they say that and they maybe they put a lot of effort into this meal and they don't want things to get cold so a host says go ahead and get started you can

16:55feel free to do that but in general you wait for the host to put their napkin in their lap first and then if Grace has said if that's part of the tradition of the home you want to wait for that before you get started as well and then when you're looking at your play setting you work from that outside in so the outermost utensils and then you work in throughout the course of the meal you might find some utensils at the top of your play setting those would be for dessert your dessert cutlery you'll find your glasses or beverages to your right you'll find your bread plate to your left in a way that I like to remember that is the acronym B M W so B for bread M for meal water or W for water or beverages on the right B M W yeah okay um have you ever I'm always want to know you know like people say people you go to the races just to see the cars crash I do I'm always fascinated with etiquette disasters like how funny it can be

17:58actually have do you have any stories of of disasters or things you've seen they're just embarrassing can you talk about embarrassing sure I can talk about it very absolutely I would say and I don't like to make fun or anything but things happen and sometimes things get broken or things get spilled so red wine on a nice table cloth or China that get or crystal that gets broken those kinds of things can happen or sometimes people don't know what to do like they don't know what a finger bowl is or they're not sure how to eat lobster and there can be some awkward moments but who who the heck would serve lobster additive that that would that would be really that would be tough yeah or somebody who loves lobster knows how to eat lobster that that would be not be easy yes and you make a great point when a host is picking out a menu they should pick out a menu and this applies to candidates finger foods everything that their guests can enjoy and not feel embarrassed yeah like if there's a sandwich on the plate you shouldn't feel an

19:01obligation to use a knife and fork I guess that's right right right um okay so since you have written a whole book what are some of the things that are in the book that that we can touch on we have a whole chapter in there on manners for challenging times so like around grief or loss and how to support someone also what to say if someone has a big achievement so those kinds of things because I think a lot of times people are afraid to say the wrong thing so they don't say anything so we talk about that as well what would the wrong thing be to say in in while you mentioned grief and then you and then you mentioned somebody's great achievement so in the context of grief same things like at least anything that starts with at least like at least you have additional siblings or at least they live to happy life or at least they're not in pain at least they weren't both decapitated yes exactly so anything that minimizes the experience is not something you want to say like they're

20:04in a better place now it was God's plan right all of those kinds of things can be hard to hear for someone and then regarding achievements sometimes people don't know how to respond so they'll say something like what's next which seems to minimize the current moment so like next yes what's next big shot that's interesting what's next mm-hmm or like better you than me or are you sure you can handle that and these are things that are often said with zero malicious intent but they can deflate someone that's celebrating a big moment spring styles are at norched and rack stores now and they're up to 60% off stock up and save on rag and bone made well Vince all Saints and more of your favorites I did I let no rack as a deed is why do we rock for the hottest still just so many good brands join the Nordic club to unlock exclusive discounts shop new arrivals first and more plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free great brands great prices that's why you rack

21:11you've been there settling in for an evening of tv only to waste half the night scrolling enter fire tv entertainment with zero effort required fire tv serves up personalized recommendations from across all your apps not sure what to watch just tell Alexa plus what you're in the mood for and she'll pull up the perfect recommendation problem solved stop the scroll start the show find what you're looking for with fire tv subscriptions may be required interesting yeah what about just congratulations for you yeah right yes um you said you got into this when you were engaged you were and and so what with weddings where I mean what's some of the basic etiquette around weddings I mean that it's an interesting thing because weddings do force most people to put on the best behavior yeah they don't they don't say and I'm not interested there's something

22:11about a wedding that people know I need to try to get it right or to try to do the right thing yes so with weddings there's so much we could talk about but one thing that I see is especially tricky is guest lists and how if you are inviting someone to let's say a bridal shower or an engagement party you need to invite them to the wedding so that's something that comes up sometimes wait say that again if you're inviting somebody to do like any sort of wedding related party then you should invite them to the wedding see that's so basic I would think you wouldn't even need to mention that and it actually it happens more than you might think because people are having let's say they're having a destination wedding or they're having a small wedding but then they want to be inclusive and so they invite lots of people to the shower and showers are about showering a bride or showering a couple with gifts and so it comes across like you're more interested in having someone either to give you gifts but you don't want to have them for your actual big day wow and that what is is there any receiving line etiquette I never understood

23:17receiving lines in particular what what you know you clearly want to keep it moving because there's a long line you definitely want to keep it moving and there is a traditional order if you want to follow it where the couple and the parents and the siblings and the bridal party you can certainly be traditional in that way but in general you want to be respectful of everybody's time and keep receiving lines moving especially if they're happening immediately after a ceremony before a reception which is typically when they happen so what are some huge no-nose generally that you see in the culture that people do and they should know better not acknowledging gifts not acknowledging like not sending thank you notes what do you mean for weddings we're talking about in general in general I think so often I hear from people who send a gift to someone they have the tracking information and they have a picture of the box at their front steps and they never heard anything

24:18so they don't know if the package was swept or if they're enjoying the gift and they feel awkward reaching out that's a big one yeah that just seemed drood because the person it I mean that's actually happened to me where you send something and then you you simply don't even know did they get it so you you want to just know you that they got it so that's that's that's kind of basic yeah so what is it what are some other some quick things before we go I just want to make sure that we we throw some things out there because everybody's hungry for etiquette tips you know I would say if I were to give any tips most people are not sure if they have a good handshake that's a good thing to practice so to practice your handshake yes and to get some feedback who would you practice the same it could be with your colleagues it could be with your friends it could be with a professor if you're still in school to just get some feedback because most of us go about the world shaking hands all the time and we don't really know what people think about

25:19the handshake I guess I would not that would never occur to me the only time I have ever the only awful experience is when somebody hands you like a dead fish and shake yes so that's the only way I think a pancake hand shake could go wrong is when somebody does not actually shake your hand they just kind of give you this dead fish it's like you know greeting a corpse it's creepy it's creepy yes and it's it's very memorable and it's not a way to make a strong first impression and handshakes are so much a part of our life and the way that we greet so when I'm giving recommendations I say shake with your right hand only in terms of the appropriate force I think about like if you were opening a refrigerator door that's about the amount of force that you need for the squeeze it's like if you were squeezing a piece of fruit like a peach or a plum to see if it's ripe enough to eat that's about the amount of pressure you want to apply I'm I never thought a hand handshake could be dissected to that level but I guess it does make sense and then another thing

26:20is you want to stand whenever you can it's more respectful to stand and shake someone's hand rather than reaching across a table or a desk something like that that's a big one the standing and also too you know when a woman comes to the table to know to stand now that's not always possible but it's often possible and it's just polite and wonderful that when a woman comes to the table that men should stand up a lot of people don't know that and I think I think a lot of women are very insensitive about this in other words they will come to a table instead of sitting they will continue to stand unaware that a polite man doesn't feel that it's right to sit while the woman is still standing she she has the obligation to be aware that it's her job to sit down otherwise polite men won't sit they will they will feel stuck standing right right and you bring

27:20up a great point that I don't like to use the term bad etiquette but it's bad etiquette to point out someone else's bad etiquette like unless you are a mentor or it's your child you know you don't want to be pointing out other people's flaws well no definitely I mean that's the that's the thing is that you can't say anything about it you can say we do please be seated because I'd like to be seated right or maybe you can hint at it I guess I've hinted at it um but yeah you definitely don't want to be that that would be rude to to to point it out um okay so what else that can we talk about that is there's so I mean there's so much to etiquette not RSVPing or not RSVPing in the means that's requested so so follow the rules if somebody sends you something uh yes and it's much better to say we regrettably can't make it immediately versus giving a maybe or waiting until the last minute to avoid that you can't and if you say you're going to be there then

28:20actually show up exactly and if you can't be there let them know yes yeah that we put on so many events over the years and there's so many people that just they don't get again this has become you you see the erosion of the culture and we need to get back but we're people just don't they're maybe they're looking for something better so they're kind of hedging their bets or something like that which just comes across as rude yes um all right final final etiquette before we go what what else can you share that people might not know I would say especially for people who have anxiety and conversations a common mistake I see is that they focus too much on what they're going to say next and not enough on listening to what the other person is saying and if they give themselves permission even if it might be scary to listen and let their creativity flow and inspire what they ask next the conversation will flow much better I'm sorry I was just thinking about what

29:25I was going to say next what do you need to say Allison I yeah the other thing that goes along with that I think is so often because I I personally meet so many people that not being shy about saying to somebody I'm sorry what please forgive me tell me your name again yes rather than exist in this limbo of you know put just put it out there and be honest and transparent absolutely and really you're being gracious because you're letting them know I actually care and I know what your what your name is so if you didn't know that Allison there's a tip for you thank you no it's just um I I love this congratulations on the book the title is was it something I said Allison Shepardak congratulations thank you so much Hey there folks I want to tell you about a coffee company I genuinely admire 10 boom coffee inspired by the faith and courage of the 10 boom family this isn't just great coffee

30:25it's coffee with a mission ethically sourced expertly roasted and rooted in Christian values if you care about what you consume and who it supports this is coffee you can feel good about go to 10 boom coffee.com use promo code Eric for 15% off your order that's 10 boom coffee.com code Eric hey the folks welcome back if you watch this show you know that one of our friends on the show or some of our friends on the show are with magan David Adam saving lives in Israel I have as my guest today Uri Shacham did I pronounce that correctly Uri Uri Shacham definitely you did very well Eric especially when I'm always saying that my name is unpronounceable in English but you excelled so that's this is really great I actually didn't pronounce it in English I had to I had to the Uri is not just you can't pronounce it yeah we would say Uri Uri but it's not the same

31:26Uri Uri Shacham so listen for folks you don't know anything about magan David Adam I've spoken with you on the program before but tell my audience what it is and where are you now I mean I know you're in Israel but where are you in Israel right now so magan David Adam is Israel's national emergency services system that means that we provide ambulance services throughout the country for anybody who is in need anybody who is in medical distress if there is a terror attack if there is a natural disaster if there is a war which we get occasionally in the in the Middle East magan David Adam is responsible to provide medical attention to whoever one we need magan David Adam is also the blood services for the state of Israel that means that we collect process and provide blood to the entire hospital is more than 250,000 units of blood on an annual basis and lastly magan David Adam is the national society for the people of Israel that means that we are

32:31affiliated with the Red Cross similar to the American Red Cross or Canadian Red Cross but we deal with emergency preparedness and response I'm now speaking to you from magan David Adam's national emergency center which actually oversees the entire activity of the organization and especially throughout the recent two and a half weeks we just we just concluded an event where dozens of missiles were shot from his ballad in the northern border towards civilians in northern city of Israel I think think that there were no injured but we are doing this for the last two and a half weeks just on a daily basis well it's one of the reasons we wanted to check in with you because we're aware of course that we're in the midst of war and I say we because we

33:32Americans are involved not nearly at the level that you Israelis are involved but it's one of the things that you all do is that there are rockets coming in and you are driving ambulances and helping people and I wanted my audience to know folks if you want to do something to help the folks in Israel we recommend you go to saving lives in Israel in Israel.com you are helping the work of magan David Adam it's so important it's it's hard for us to realize because you realize yourself Uli that we're in America we're not used to this we don't have rockets flying overhead what happened to us at 9-11 is a is a tremendous outlier we're not used to being attacked on our soil by God's

34:32grace but you in Israel I would say you're you're as used to it as you can get because it keeps happening and of course now it's happening intensely what's it been like in the last few weeks so unfortunately the people of Israel are being attacked from Iran and from Lebanon in Lebanon it's there is the terrorist organization hisbalah which is actually a proxy of Iran so the Iran terrorist regime actually have an arm in Lebanon and they are both shooting missiles and rockets on civilians in Israel now when we're talking about a ballistic missile that is being shot from Iran and we are talking about 10 or 15 missiles a day we are talking about a warhead that couldn't that has about 1000 pounds of explosive this is actually like a bus and then the length of a missile is a bus so think of a bus full of explosive that is targeted towards civilians

35:38and and this is going on for 18 18 days hisbalah is also targeting us with rockets maybe they are smaller but they still can cause real damage and the thing is when you think about kids in Israel young young babies and and kids and and women that have to run to the shelter 10 times a day or 15 times a day in some of the areas they have as as as many as 15 seconds now what would a mother do if she had two kids she she heard she heard the sirens and now she has 15 minutes to run to the shelter who which one of them will she grab how can she defend her her kids and indeed we've been attacked by Hamas from Gaza for for many years but you never get used to it you would never really get used to it especially nowadays when the danger is so great

36:46I would add one more thing but I think that the people of Israel I would say our willing are willing to to face this this challenge because the hope is that at the end of this war our enemies would no longer threat our existence in this war Syaric the Iranian regime only mission is to annihilate Israel this is what they do this is what they want to achieve and at the end of the day the U.S. and Israel right now are actually protecting my family my people in Israel to not not go and and live under a constant danger and again the feet of the dome role is to make sure that if gut forbid something happens we will be there for the people during lows pro savings days save more on what goes into the job add power to your lineup with

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38:48of the map is immoral this is something we have to care about and i know there are many people listening who want to help so folks it's why i'm talking to uri saving life israel.org that's saving life with an f saving life israel.org folks please write that down saving life israel.org saving life israel.org oh god bless you thank you so much thank you so much the people in Israel are not aware how much support we get from Christian communities my personal obligation is to tell the story to spread the word and god bless you all for being partners for saving lives in the holy land thank you it's our privilege thank you hey folks before we get back to our guests i just want to say a lot of people donate when there's a headline but mda mage and david i don't doesn't get to slow down when the news cycle moves on mda is israel's national ems system that means

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