891 | Southern Oregon Steelhead Fishing with James Sampsel of Humble Heron Fly Fishing

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Steelhead don't wait around long.

They move with fresh water, travel on edges, and disappear just as quickly as they show up.

When everything lines up the window can be short and when it closes it's gone.

That reality shapes how today's guests fishes for steelhead.

James Samson spends his season's guiding on short coastal rivers swinging fly as for

winter steelhead and stripping for Shanuk Samson that have just pushed in from the ocean.

He's the owner of humble heron flyfishing and his approach is build around movement and

timing, understanding where fish travel, how they use the edges, and why small adjustments

often matter more than heavy gear or long cast.

This is the Weft Fly Swing podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for

flyfishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and

what you can do to give back to the fish species we all love.

In today's conversation, James is going to break down what makes coastal rivers different,

how fishing close to the ocean changes fly choice and presentation, and why reading conditions

matter more than forcing a plan.

Today you're going to learn why travel lanes and edges outperform obvious holding water

when lighter sink temps and simpler flies make more sense, and how storm timing and river

drops change and shape success on the coast.

Alright, this is a good one, we're going to get into some history as well on this one,

so check it out, you can find James Samson at humbleheronflyfishing.com, here he is,

James Samson.

How you doing James?

I'm doing great Dave, thanks for having me.

Yeah, this is going to be a fun one, I've been looking forward to this one for a few

reasons, you're down on the road, which is a place we've talked a lot about in recent

months here on the podcast, and we're also going to talk about swing and flies, I'm sure

it's still ahead fishing, and also maybe touch on shunuk fishing, I think we've been

talking a lot about that up in Alaska, I know people are heading up there, which is great,

but I think there's some places down in the lower 48 where people can find shunuk too,

so we're probably going to touch on that today, but maybe take us back first, what's

happening, I want to do kind of a year review, maybe of what you have going, but this time

of year we're just in January, is this like prime time for you or what do you got going?

Yeah, January is kind of the start of our, you know, the winter things happening here,

fall steelhead, they're in the rivers, but they're thinking about doing their things in spring,

and shunuk have already rolled through, they're dying off, and now we're seeing winter steelhead

start pushing up our tributaries, and main river stems down here in southern Oregon.

So it's an exciting time for a lot of anglers as much as we get excited about summer fish and fall

fish and fishing dry lines and skating flies, we really get into bright chrome steelhead

on these shorter coastal rivers. Everyone kind of goes bananas for them, they're inherently

more difficult to catch because they're traveling fish, but if you get one, it's truly a game

changer for a lot of folks who tie into one. Nice, nice, and the area you're at is kind of,

maybe describe that a little bit, I know the Rogue is part of it, but is it kind of all of southern

Oregon, you go down into California, what's your range? Yeah, so we don't really go into California,

we used to kind of dip into those northern California rivers. It's more something that we do for

ourselves, but in terms of taking people on rivers, we're pretty much in an area where it's very

secluded. We live in this town called Port Orford, and we kind of laugh about it because it's,

like you really want to have to be here. It's basically in the middle of nowhere, it's a really

gorgeous area, there's quite a few different rivers and intributaries down here, but it's the south

coast. So we pretty much go from like band and like band and dunes area and it's a big golf

community south close to the border. So we kind of stick in this little area that's kind of called a

banana belt in southern Oregon. Right, the banana belt. Yeah, the weather is quite a bit different

than the rest of the coast, right? You're used to, you guys still get some nasty weather, but

describe that, what does the banana belt mean and how does that affect with the weather and the

fishing? It's just, it has to do with the wind currents here. I mean, like in the summer time,

a Port Orford is extremely windy. It's like the most westerly town in the contagious US.

So it's really rugged, rocky, and we just get these interesting storm cycles and just warm weather

patterns. So oftentimes in January, it can be 70 degrees here, but that's not always, excuse me,

not always the case. We can have storms that drop six inches of rain or you can be fishing in the

snow. You just really never know, but it can make for some really pleasant times. We got

a variation of weather, so people like being here. It's a good place, but it's also secluded,

so it's also difficult for some people to want to stay here full-time. Yeah, you're down. You're

like a ways from your hours from Portland and you're quite, what's the next big town? What's the

closest bigger town to you? So that would be, so south of us, the next town would be like the

mouth of the Rogue, which is Gold Beach, still not very big, and then Brookings, which is about

half an hour north of the California border. So I mean, Kuzbe is north of us about an hour,

but it's all pretty small, even though that Port Orford was the first established,

an oldest town on the coast, it's still 1300 people, so pretty small. Pretty small, yeah,

you're down there. This is great. And then you're on your program, so January, when does the peak of

steelhead, winter steelhead? When is that going for you? Every year is different. It really is

dependent on how much water we receive, because swelling rivers push fish up rivers, but I'd say

like February, March is peak. There's more fish in the river system, but also sometimes in January,

it can be really good. I was out just the other day, and we're doing a family float with neighbors

on the elk river, and we saw quite a few fish pushing up in pods. So it just it depends. And so

basically the name of the game is to try and find the green water. So understanding all the different

rivers here, when they come in, when a storm cycle goes through, how many of them are blown out,

who's going to come into play first, and then, you know, which one's going to get low and cleared,

and you want to void and try and, you know, find that steelhead green water. So we talk about so.

Right. Stay away from the low and clear. Yeah, but it's not impossible. You just have to switch up

your tactics. What's the difference when you're when you have maybe you're fishing the low and

clear? How do you fish that differently then? And maybe talk about how your fishing is this swinging

and nip thing? Are you doing everything? Yeah, no, we only swing flies very rarely do we ever

and then that's not really part of our program. We kind of believe in stepping into rivers and

connecting with rivers and then, you know, you doing the work to be able to catch your own fish.

So we believe in swinging flies, plus, you know, getting the tug is just is almost everything

to us. And so yeah, we're we're using on the lower road. We have a jet boat that we

is to get us around because there really isn't a shuttle service again, small towns. So a jet boat

is really handy to get from place to place. And then the other rivers that we fish were reusing

drift boats. If there's enough water and then also rafts as transportation to get down rivers.

So we step out and we swing flies. That's awesome. Yeah. And so it depends on what river you're on.

Kind of what technique you're using because the hard part about winter steelhead and when you're

fishing so close to the mouth of rivers near the ocean is that these fish are moving, right?

They're pretty keyed into predators. So seals and whatnot. So when they enter river systems,

they kind of boogie. I've sat there and then just like followed fish at more than a walking pace

up river banks where I can just following to see how fast they're moving. And they don't really

pause. There are some places if you know rivers really well where they pause, but for the most part

generally they're moving. So we're trying to fish lanes like travel lanes. So maybe not as much as

like the bigger chunky holding water, which of course they could be in. But we're looking for

rivers that are on the rise, good color of water, and then fishing those edges. So even like on

the road, which is a big river towards the mouth, you know, it can be really intimidating and people

look at it and like, well, how am I going to catch a fish in that? It's almost kind of like the

esquina up and up in Canada that you're fishing the edges. So we're not even really fishing that

deep to these fish. And if you're fishing deep and you're not swinging it all the way to the

willows, all the way to the bank, like you're really missing out. And if you're over-weighting and

you're like in past your ankles, you're kind of out of the game. Those fish can swim right past you.

You know, it's tempting to want to wait out there and pass the country mile, but it doesn't really

do you any good. Yeah, hit the other side. So what you're saying is you're fishing these runs kind

of a typical steelhead run, but you're fishing it in all the way to the bank at times. Yeah, all the

way in. Light tips, unweighted flies. Now when rivers start to drop and get clear, that's when we

start to weight out a bit more. And then that's when we start using heavier sink tips because the fish

start to get weary. And now they start to slow down a little bit and then they'll go into those

deeper slots and kind of hang out by structure kind of waiting for the next push of water to

to drive them up. So that's how we kind of switch our tactics and go about it. That's cool.

If you guys fish with the smaller, the rogue is a bigger river with the smaller rivers in there.

Are you fishing? Are you fishing those differently? Is it, I mean, because some of them get,

do they small enough where it's hard to swing or are you always swinging even on the smaller stuff?

Yeah, so we, you know, we're selective in where we're fishing. We're not really like hiking

into the high points of these smaller rivers where it's more like pocket water where you're leaving

a boat behind. And so like nymphing tactics would be really great. So we're concentrating more

on the lower ends of rivers where the runs start to broaden out and the steep incline starts to flatten

out. So we're looking for swingable water as much as possible. Nice. So we're going to talk more

about this. So let's just run through the season a little bit. So you've got, you've got all of that.

You've got a lot going because of the rogue. I think that's what is unique. And we've just recently

did an episode. It was awesome to highlight it. We'll put a link in the show notes with with

Woolridge Boats. Oh, awesome. Yeah. We interviewed Grant, who's the great grants or I see great grants

and I think of Glenn, who basically is the guy who explored the rogue and blasted the, he was

talking about how he was blasting all the rapids like and not just a couple like the the federal

government was giving him dynamite to blow out the river to clean up. You know what I mean? So

it's really interesting story because the rogue is a famous river. You know, there was lots of

the famous people back in the day that fished it and went up it and stuff. So do you kind of know

a little bit that history of do you? Absolutely. Connected. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's kind of

the lure of it, right? So when we describe the rogue, we talk about like three rivers in the United

States that you have to do before you, you know, you leave this place. Grant Canyon, which, you know,

the Colorado River, right? The middle fork of the salmon. And then, and you know, the Wild and

Scenic Rogue River, you know, established in 1968 and you know, designated Wild and Scenic. Like part

of what we talk about with our guests on the rivers is like, is certainly the pioneers, you know,

guys like Glenn Woolridge, you were blowing up rapids to make them so you can navigate through them

or going backwards up, you know, running jetpots. Exactly. The first guy is insane. I know.

It's insane. The rogue is definitely a boaters river. So a lot of people geek out on the design of

boats and drift boats and, you know, the Rogue River Drift Boats and the McKenzie River Drift Boats

in this area, you know, there's a huge rich culture along boats. Yeah, there is. It's cool. Yeah,

it's your part of that history, right? And then, and so the rogue I'm guessing, is that a

during what you change from winter steelhead into summer? Are you fishing more of the rogue?

Are you still covering all the rivers? So we tend to take summers off where, you know, you can still

fish the rogue and where we're at at the coast like the water temps for us are just too warm for

us to want to be targeting steelhead. So we leave them alone. Now, on some years where it's not

too warm and the water temps start to drop, we might consider start fishing them in August,

but generally we start fishing the rogue in September when water temps have dropped. And so

Kate and I used to guide the entirety of the river. So we were running multi-day trips in the

Walden Sea to corridor, have a permit to fish the lower rogue from like, say Agnes down,

closer towards the mouth. And then we would fish, you know, the Grants Pass area, central point,

and then all the way up to like William Jess Dam where the, you know, navigable part of the rogue

kind of starts. And we would fish trout in the spring all the way down. So, but at this point,

we've kind of in the fall, our kind of bread and butter is sticking around the Grants Pass area,

fishing the middle rogue. It's, you know, kind of hard to figure out in terms of steelhead water.

It's kind of challenging for people to understand it, but it can be really productive. And we have

a great time down there. So yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. So our fall is geared around that and then we

transition back over to the coast for our winter season. Gotcha. So yeah, that's kind of the,

the year it sounds like you get going. Like we're saying right now, it's kind of January, February,

you're going to be rolling and then then when does winter steelhead, when is that end for you?

Are you fishing through up into like May? Yeah. So winter steelhead for us kind of starts late

December and we fish it the small rivers close March 31st. And so then we extend our season by a

couple weeks by strictly fishing the rogue. So we'll go about two weeks into April and then we

just leave fish alone because we want them to spawn and and do their business so we can keep doing

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The one thing we haven't touched on yet is the Chinook fishing down there and that's something

I know we don't want to like get too deep in spot burn and all that stuff but you know we mentioned

that we've been talking we've been doing some Chinook up in Alaska there's you know some great

fishing up there but there's also some struggles up in Alaska which is kind of a crazy thing but

you don't hear as much I know I had Jay Nicholas on the podcast this was probably man way back

at the start I think we're talking when we first started he was talking about a little bit of the

Chinook up on the north coast but we really haven't had much on this since then talk about a little

bit of high level on what you do there and maybe describe when that is and what that looks like.

Yeah it's kind of a fun unique season for us fall true fall Chinook start coming into these smaller

coastal rivers as early as September and when you know water allows fish to move up but they're

cycling in the ocean kind of getting geared in pushing their noses into the mouth of these rivers

around September and that fish is September October November and then oftentimes until like

about Christmas time which is great and it's it's a different kind of fishery it's we use

you know old school techniques you know we're we're fishing single hands and we're stripping

flies like comets and and causers and you know I'm assured Jay talked about stuff like that but

Southern Oregon has a you know has a pretty strong community based in this and like you know

even next door I have a studio in downtown Port Orford there's a a book and tackle shop and it's

owned by Adam Davis and his his wife Kate and they do and antique book sales and whatnot but they

also have like a fly tying section look at Adam's dad is a Stan Davis who I know is done

books with Jay and he's a he's a well-known fly tire in this area and people really geek out on it

and I mean these guys they live for three months out of the air that's all they talk about is Chinook

and and I mean it's like it just ended and it's you know they look like sad dogs right now right

which is kind of their feet are kind of just dragging a little bit because it's over it's over

and is this is this it's interesting because the it's different right you're not swinging flies

you're casting as you so it would be kind of like more like fishing for co you're about like an

Alaska especially stripping for coho they come all the way into your feet right right right totally

and so like you know guys in in you know the the lost coast in northern California and Southern

Oregon have done this for some time you know since like the 40s or something and basically a lot

of these guys will have prams you can do it from a drift boat and you essentially sit on a pool

and fish will show themselves they'll move in they'll move out they may not show themselves but

it's always great when they do and so what you end up doing is you cast downstream into these

pools and it's a slow strip and everyone has their different idea of what the strip should look

like or feel like and it's very much a learned field thing you know you got to really have your

sense a you know mojo going on but it's a slow strip kind of deal and the fish either really

hang on to it clover it pull hard or you know we talk about like finding out what it is because it

feels like you're on a log and you're like that's a log and you keep stripping and stripping and

you bury the hook and then it's just all send those bonkers and I've I've been slowly kind of

learning it and have had mentors and starting to really understand these rivers and the more that

I do it the more I can't like not think about it so Kate and I we live on the Elk River outside of

Port Orford and when Shenuka running like Kate says like I'm a dog I just stare out the window

you know she's just like fine just go out you know just go out and do 10 minutes which is like

impossible but to be able to step out in your backyard and strip set on a 20-pound Shenuka

it's pretty awesome yeah that is really awesome what what are the fish doing these are and these

are not just like a dark fish they've been river they're mostly chrome fish that are kind of coming

in you're hitting them early is that how that looks so that's the idea is is trying to stay as close

to the mouth as possible to see if you can get bright ones but these are like you know we're looking

for sea-lice fish and the people who are harvesting these fish like they won't take anything that

doesn't have sea-lice on them yeah oh so you can still and you can keep Shenuka down there you

can keep Shenuka wild Shenuka or hatchery um you can keep some wild fish yeah there's some areas

I know that's been a popped up we don't have to get deep into that but I know there's been some

areas there where I think steelhead too I think it's one of the last places you can keep wild steelhead

right which I don't think there's many places you can do that no there's not and I think it's

only in southern Oregon and there's eight rivers that you can still do that which you know we're

not we don't have to get into all of that but um yeah so there's guys harvesting and and there's

hatchery Shenuka on the elk river too so like if I catch one of those yeah I'm gonna bonk it if

it's bright chrome yeah we're gonna eat that fish for sure right which is the best right Shenuka

like they lots of fat and all that stuff yeah yeah they're great fish they're gating fish so um

you know they do you know eventually start getting dark but the goal is to try and get those

chrome ones for sure then there's nothing like really strip setting you know it's like as close as

you can get to like saltwater fish or like tarp and obviously not tarp and but when you strip

set into a Shenuka and it pulls back and it's a good one man it is just right that's what you're doing

oh man it's super fun that's the cool thing is that it's a strip set and Shenuka are are big heavy

fish so when you what does that look like when you strip set and then you get one or what is the

fight look like well it's like it depends on the state of your boat so if you've got a bunch of

junk in your mouth yeah it's absolutely chaotic and so you know sometimes those fish will eat

right next to the boat and you've got a clear 80 feet of line while this fish is like pulling

super hard and wants to go back to the ocean and if you stop them when they're on a run like that

you know they'll break 20 pound no problem right so um you strip set on them and you might get like

a couple like deep heavy head shakes um and then they just move and it's their first run and they

just go and they dog you sometimes they'll they'll go airborne um but they'll just pull and pull

and pull and pull and then the idea is to just get everything out of the way get everything out

of your guides and then onto the reel as fast as possible and then crank down on the reel and

and then it's a big gigantic tug of war you know you got to put the wood to them it's super fun

what's the rod you're using the length and weight yeah we're using like I mean you can get away

with an eight but like nine and ten pound or ten weight rods those are those are good and

nine foot nine weight or ten weight yeah nine to eleven feet some of these guys kind of have

custom rods they won't like it a little bit longer too especially if they're like waiting in for

like some many capabilities but yeah how does it compare to all the steelhead figure I guess

how it's different right you're stripping but how does for you you do both would you do more of

this if there was more opportunity throughout the year I think so it's just it's become super

addicting and it's it's a kind of a nice thing too because when I first started fishing two hand

rods and I got my first steelhead on a swung fly on the dishoots river like I knew that's all I

wanted to do for ever and ever and I became so obsessed with it you know it was essentially all

I was dealing for years and years and years and then you know moving out here to the coast and

getting into Chinook and casting single hand rods again there's something really nostalgic and

great about that and it's such a nice just switch up yeah for me personally yeah totally and getting

back to the roots of casting single hand rod is super fun and it's not you know and I love trout

and I grew up in Montana fishing trout but like it's not just trout fishing it's like you're

fishing a single hand rod to like you know a predator it's awesome they fight so hard right you

can do that right with uh we talk a lot about the spay and two handed because that's kind of

it has made the change the game right has made it a lot easier but you can do all this and this

was all done with single hand rods like swinging flies before do you see anybody up there still

swinging flies with a single hand rod yeah totally and we do too and especially in places like the

North Amplwa or you're fishing like a a dry fly that you don't want to be casting super far out

if you want to be able to see your fly skating on the surface so there's there's a lot of

applications for it's super fun and then also like when we have guests who um you know aren't

able to weigh the rivers like they used to they're not young anymore on the road we can still

fish from boats so we'll you Kate and I will you know step our guests down we'll hop out of a drift

and hold on to the back end and wait for people and oftentimes these guys will cast single hand rods

and swing flies through there and uh that's cool right so somebody that doesn't want to maybe

isn't as good at waiting or something you so you can take people no matter what age you can get them

down and fishing for steelhead yeah yeah I mean some of our most fond memories are of a duo father

send duo and dad's like 95 and son never thought he would fish with his dad again um and then

watch him tie into a steelhead it's really great wow that's awesome nice well this is cool I think

we've hit some high level here um I wanted to talk more about um kind of tips maybe focusing on

steelhead for a bit because I think that we got a lot of people that are interested that obviously

swing and flies but before we do tell me about I want to hear about your art because I think

that's a big thing that you do down there and probably separates you maybe from some of the

just steelhead fish and maybe in port or for two right is kind of an artsy area maybe describe

what you do with your art and what that area is like sure yeah port or for it is it's an arts town

it's pretty wild how many studios and galleries are in this town whether they're open all the time

that's a different thing it's pretty sleepy town but um there's a lot of artisans here a lot of creative

people and that wasn't the first a lure in moving here but um being in this town and like it's

a really nice community and so for myself I'm I'm a painter uh I have a studio and gallery

and on the main strip in downtown port or for yeah painting is in in arts has always kind of

been a part of me like watercolors um I use oils um I'm not adverse to like any any medium but

I'm just kind of in this oil paint phase for a while now but yeah like my second memory was

drawing with my dad and so it's kind of always been in me and it and it's funny how rivers have

brought me even more into the art I have my first painting mentor was on the deshoots and he was like

a guide his name is David Kingker and he taught me to paint outside and observing the natural world

so plein air painting so that's that's a big part of what I do as an artist um I always talk about

the struggle between like the best time to paint is also the best time to fish for steelhead

all right so I'm always kind of like torn and tormented and I drive my wife crazy but

yeah do you paint outside is that part of it where you're painting yeah yeah so about 70% of my work

is all done out of doors it's called plein air painting which is a French term for in the open air

and so uh like the impressionist did it a lot yeah so I I paint outside a lot and rivers are you know

a big subject matter for me really light anything is a good subject matter for me but um I've kind

of taken into step further and I'm on a plein air circuit it's kind of an interesting kind of niche

in the art world where artists get juried into um an event um and it's called a plein air event

and essentially a paint out and maybe 40 to you know depending on how big it is a

upwards of 60 artists get juried into an area and we all travel to an area and then we have a

radius in which we paint live outside um for like a week or so and then and then what paintings get

hung at the end we have to frame all of our stuff there's a guest judge who gives awards and

prizes um and then a good good avenue to create more collectors um for the emerging artist so

that's that's kind of a big thing and that's part of why uh our summers I'm I kind of take office

because I'm traveling around and painting at these events which is super fun are those events all

around the the region the country or where where is that yeah they're everywhere they're everywhere

so right now is application season so we're kind of waiting to hear like what events are going to

but so far this year I'm going to go to Virginia I just got back from Texas I'm going to go to

Colorado there's one here in Oregon then I'm going to go to um some big ones in Maryland and

Maine uh I'm going to go to Michigan okay there's yeah so that it's kind of everywhere yeah what is

the biggest thing for you that you get out of it is it the connecting to the other artists or is

it the um learning from you know what is the big thing yeah yeah you know you you always connect

with other artists which is great you have opportunities to paint with other artists you know

some of these events that I'm getting into I'm like painting next to my heroes the people that I look

up to which is really really cool but also just like as an artist you know visual stimulation is a

big thing and being in places you've never been before you just it comes out of you and um when

you're there you know I'll paint like 15 paintings huh in that week and so then I come home you

know if whatever doesn't sell I come home with like a whole new body of work which is pretty awesome

oh there you go yeah so that's that's a big part of it um connections and whatnot but uh mostly

being in a new region it's it's awesome yeah that's right that's cool nice so and then if people

want to check that out do you have a different website for all your art I do yeah it's it's my name

it's James hyphen or dash samsle.com good good we'll put that in the show notes so we can take a

look that as well let's get back into I want to hear on the steelhead so maybe take us into let's

just jump into winter steelhead fishing for a sec maybe talk about one of your popular rivers and

talk about what how you're doing it there we primarily fish the elk sixes and rogue um in the winter

of time which is is really great and people come fish with us you know like to fish three days

because um depending on what's happening they have an opportunity you fish three different places

when they're with us um which is always appealing so from smaller intimate rivers um like the elk and

sixes uh close to the mouth of the rivers um which is great where you can float almost all the way

to the ocean which always blows people's minds oh you can you can float out you can literally almost

can you see the ocean when you're floating out yeah yeah yeah totally cool um on the elk not so much

because there's a there's private land there um you can always walk out to it but like the sixes

we do um which is awesome and then the rogue too which is like we always say like the lower rogue is

like a mini British Columbia because it's big it's a big it spreads out it's big it's spread out

you know it's mountainous um there's these big long gravel bars which are great these big sweeping

bends um and all these rivers are like really easy to wade um you know it's like cobblestone

and so people who um also have issues with um wading also love being here like one of my favorite

things is like hearing hearing uh older anglers say like man i feel like i'm 40 on these rivers

this is great no kidding you know you know that we're not putting them in like lead rock where

that you know they're hesitating and we're holding on to their waders you know they have independence

and so we really believe in that solitude bit and they're not waiting super deep and it sounds like

you don't have to wait super deep no yeah no no you know and it's dependent on what's going on but

for the most part yeah it's pretty shallow waves which is great for everyone but yeah um swing

in light tips mostly fishing intruder style stuff bigger flies in general unless it gets low

and clear than we might step it down to more traditional spay flies okay what's your typical

for let's just say for winter steelhead like rod length and and all that on the smaller rivers

anything between like 11 feet and 12 and a half foot in the seven eight weight range is a good rod

on the rogue you can get up to you know 14 feet but we usually stay around that 12 and a half to

13 foot rod length again you know seven eight weight rods and then also reels with good drag

are helpful because these fish are inherently you know hotter because they've just come in from

the ocean and so they pull and so if you're not super well versed on how to palm a click and

pull reel like you can lose fish for sure so having a good drag system is super key so you can

slow fish down what are your as far as the line that the tips the light tips what do you use

now there for your brand and all that stuff so we use a bunch of different stuff we often like

for for light stuff we end up using like verse leaders a lot so like anything between like a sink

five and a sink three is really nice in 10 foot lengths and you know some of the older stuff that

you can still find and are those like those tips that you use in BC they're like 15 feet long like

six you know sink three those are pretty good and then the smaller rivers were fishing a lot of like

T8 and T11 and then sometimes T14 depending on what's going on you know heavier sink tips when

the rivers clearing in the fish are going to the far end and hanging up in the deep structure

T8 when and T11 fishing the edges with non-weighted flies when the river is

up and colored so we can get it to the inside and then sometimes the rivers up so much that we

start using like multi density lines so like for instance the the elk river is more of a downhill

river it doesn't seem like it but like it's sister river just a few miles away is much more flat

and so it's slower moving but the elk seems to be kind of going down river a lot so when we have

good color and there's a lot of water pushing down we use a lot of multi density lines so that

would be like fist lines are game changers game changers with you know up to sink five and then

T14 like 13 feet on the end of that and then a weighted fly to just get it in there and dig in

the beginning and because they're so down downhill like you know oftentimes that fly will swing

all the way to your feet so a bunch of different systems yeah a lot so similar stuff to what

people would be using but lighter it sounds like a lot of the stuff you're depending on flow but

you're loving to get because you got to that's the big thing is how do you get it all all

way into the bank without snagging up right you got to have a pretty light tip yeah totally and so

you know you're just like you just got to test it out right so take a few swings and if it isn't

going through or if it's starting to take the bottom either mid swing or towards the end of it

maybe you should think about either going to a non-weighted fly if you have a weighted fly or

a lighter sink tip just to be able to get to the inside because man you'd be surprised how many

fish come on that hang down just because they're moving in on the edges right are you doing anything

on the hang down are you when it's hanging down are you just letting it sit there or do you do

anything to it yeah you know I always kind of just like twitch it or pulse my arm does it do anything

I don't know yeah you know it's kind of a ritual thing like is anybody home right you know

but like but but typically if the fish is going to eat it you know it's going to be in this wing

towards the end and or oftentimes right when it stops but if you're just sitting there dangling

for a long time you know nice and I was going to follow up we talked you're talking about the

north coast or the California the rivers of the lost coast was we've talked about that before

right there's that video that came out the Tom Scare what they talked about I think the history

of of some of that fishing for those Chinook right down there and some of the history are you

familiar with that that oh yeah yeah it's my favorite documentary fly fishing film for sure

yeah wait what it reminds again what what is the theme or the premise of that one it was I think

2009 that came out yeah so so basically that film is set in the lost coast which is northern

California and it really shows the history of steelhead and salmon fishing in those rivers from

like I think it goes as far as south as like LA or definitely like Sonoma County like the Russian

River the Smith River you know iconic rivers and it talks about the history how it's publicized

the drugs of people that went there a lot of the strong characters like Russell Chatham and Bill

Shad you know those guys there and you know it talks about kind of the heyday and then decline you

know it seems like anytime I go and fish the Smith River if I'm like at a boat ramp and there's

a bunch of old timers there we kind of get into a babble Eddie and they talk about how remorseful

they are like we we didn't realize what we had you know they talk about overfishing those rivers

and then trying to protect them which is great the Smith River has lots of great protection which

which is fabulous and one of my favorite rivers to fish and most challenging but yeah that kind

of talks about all of those those drainage is there. Fist fly guide services passionate about

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this podcast while you go and it seems like there's a lot overlap between the area you're at I mean

so obviously it's two different states but it's really kind of do you feel like it's pretty

similar to that north northern california coastal stuff totally yeah totally kind of has that

similar feel about it especially the more south you go I mean there's so many there's so many nuances

in here and there's so many different rivers and tributaries and you know you can be pretty spread

out which is nice of course when rivers when rivers really blow out here the one river that comes

in the shape first is the elk river and so at times if the fish are in like that river can be

pretty busy just because everyone wants to get some and so even even folks from california even

guides from california will come up and fish these rivers but when like everything's kind of in play

like it's pretty spread out which is nice and the competition can be pretty minimal like I said

you really have to want to be here because it's a journey to get here yeah and you got to know the

the water right that's part of it being there is that how like if somebody was you know listening

and they wanted to plan a trip can you just pick that date and then you just go and go with whatever

is a fish and best that day or like what if you wanted to fish the elk or a specific river is

that tough to do um it can be so we were living in grants pass and even like three hours away you

know it would be like kind of a gamble and definitely knowing people helps in conditions and

whatnot I'm getting that insight being here is like the greatest blessing ever and people call

me because I live on the river and they're like what's happening dude like tell me you know like

what's the river is looking at and then like once you've been here like you want to spend some time

here it's really hard to do a day trip or two two days yeah three is a good start there three is

good and if you have a guide that's even better because we're in the know how but if you're

totally in the do it yourself which is great I love that you know like you want to you want to

be able to be here for a while because things change so frequently and then you know and you

want to look at storm cycles too you know even you see that there's going to be a bump in the river

that's kind of a good time to be there yeah is that the best time is that when you get it do you

want to get a you get a bump and then right as it's going up coming down wins the prime time on that

you know typically it's like coming down you know as it's going up you know before it blows out

is can be great that's the hardest one to time out like that one's so unpredictable but as the storm

cycle goes through and the rivers are up they tend to drop pretty pretty quickly a lot of these

rivers are you know 30 miles or less so they come in to shape pretty quick so being there at the

tail end of a storm is great because then you can start driving around and looking at all the

rivers and seeing how they're acting and seeing how they actively low and clear but once you've

been here and you know it you kind of understand the timing of it all you know how much rain has

has fallen you know and as one clears you know how many days until this other river starts to clear

so it's good to be here for some time you know just chill out and hang out there's plenty of hikes

to do too so it's a beautiful area are people that come down there for a few days are they sticking

in like doing the hotel thing or how do you know if they're coming from out of town yeah so there's

lots of hotel options our guests use hotels there's Cape Blanco is like a kind of a it's a camp

site and like it has RV spots as well and yards so a lot of people like to do it on the cheap and

camp and then also we have kind of a pretty nice little program at the mouth of the sixes we have

some some friends Joe and Cali and they have this ranch and they have an Airbnb that's on the mouth

of the sixes which overlooks castle castle rock right there which is directly at the mouth and

you're right next to the river and she's a court on blue chef and so our guests will stay there

and they don't have to think about anything we pick them up from from the cabin beautiful views

and then Cali you know walks down from her ranch house and you know has amazingly delicious food

that she she gives to our guests too so people have kind of got on to that and they kind of love

that and who what's not to love if you could afford it it's great that's a good option but there's

lots of hotels in town as well okay so it's pretty easy so we're talking a little on winter take us

into now to the fall talk about that is that quite a bit different than what we're talking about

here with with the winners it's similar swing and flies and all that it's way different so our fall

so like starting September October November we're on the middle rogue and the river is pretty stable

so in 1964 there is one of those hundred year floods and there weren't any dams on the

rogue at this time there was a big winter storm on Christmas Eve where a bunch of snow fell

and then a warm southerly storm rained on it and everything came down and I think it was like

the CFS at the mouth was like half a million and like big big for us in the winter at the the

bottom of the rogue is like 80,000 so I mean huge and so because of that the town guy got scared

they put in all of these dams which have now been since removed but there's one remaining it's

called William Jess Dam and it controls the flows so you know Army Corps of Engineers will fluctuate

the flows to get Spring Chinook to come up so there'll be a bump towards late summer to kind of

get those fish to come up or for Fall Chinook to come up but for the most part like the CFS the

water level is pretty constant and so we fish the middle rogue because it's above the wild and

scenic corridor and so fish that come up through the lower rogue through the wild and scenic you know

when they first enter they have seals to deal with so they kind of boogie they get through the

Agnes area and now they're starting to get into some structure but they they'll sometimes hold

there but a lot of times they move through the wild and scenic they're just like want to get through

all of it yeah so is that what's going on there so we get because you have the rogue the rogue's

kind of cool because it's unique for the half pounders too right you get these fish they're kind of

like trout trout size that are steelhead they're kind of cool because they're small but they take

like a steelhead that's the reason that wild and scenic area doesn't you can't catch it feels like

you can't catch many of the big the bigger adults in that it's more half pounders yeah it's

really tough yeah you catch a lot of half pounders there I catch more like in the fall I catch more

adult steelhead like Agnes area and down towards the mouth and Agnes is below is Agnes below the

takeout of the low the wild and scenic yeah yeah foster bar is the is the takeout for the wild

wild and scenic and then Agnes is the small like really small town just downstream of that it's

about 35 miles up from the mouth from Gold Beach and they kind of hang out there because there's

bedrock there lots of half pounders it's super fun to do fall fishing down there and I usually end

up doing about two weeks out of a jet boat down there or a drift boat there but yeah those fish

like to move and so like in the wild and scenic we used to do spay trips like camp glamping trips

multi days and we catch a lot of half pounders and then sometimes when we catch adult steelhead it's

the weirdest thing with swung flies but once they get through the wild and scenic they go over one last

obstacle which is the class five waterfall it's called rainy falls and once they get above that

they tend to start slowing down and then there's also a bunch of spawning tributaries that they'll

spawn the next winter in so they kind of start to stage out and a lot of fish will go up to the

upper river and whatnot but we stay around the middle river and like a holding fish is way

easier to target and we sometimes catch half pounders they'll make it up here but it's like we're

we're targeting adult steelhead yeah so that's the difference so they basically it sounds like

they're shooting up through the wild and scenic the canyon section getting up to pass rainy falls to

where you know then they can settle down and get ready to find their spot totally and you know it's

like I've caught I've caught steelhead with sea ice autumn 78 miles from the mouth like if that'll

show you like how fast some of these fish will want to move it's pretty wild so we catch pretty

bright fish in the fall and also it's like what's really cool about the rogue is that virtually

every month out of the year you can catch a new steelhead so we don't just have a winter

and summer run we have a spring run we have a summer fall and winter run so even when we're

fishing there's a salmon fly hatch on the upper rogue the very top of it and we're dead drifting

big bugs out of a drift boat trying to catch those those big trout that are up there sometimes we

catch steelhead and they'll eat a dead drift dry and it's like oh you've got you got a steelhead

on you know and we fish six weights for that for that reason single hands when we're trout fishing

up there but what's what's cool about this river too it's like it's pretty wild is that the upper

reaches are so much colder you know the towards the source of the river so a lot of these fish

are just trying to get to colder water oh right yeah so oftentimes in the summertime we'll fish higher

up because that's where the fish are and so you can you can catch steelhead in the summertime on the

rogue just need to be higher up and not lower which is really interesting to think about yeah and

then does that explain so why did those half pounders I mean I wonder why they're sticking

maybe this is a number of things but you catch more of them in the lower I guess they're maybe

they're okay finding their spot I don't know well I think I think part of that is their juvenile

steelhead right so there they are steelhead that you know hatched in the river their metabolism

was high enough that they wanted to go to the ocean they go to the ocean but then they also follow

they're kind of like jacks wish the nook they follow the big fish in right and they'll dip in

and then go back out so those half pounders we catch will go back out to the ocean and that's our

future those are adult fish so I know I know a lot of people like to to eat those fish but I I

release them all because I know that's our wild stock wow yeah sure wild stock so you can tell the

run probably the future runs by how good those runs are kind of like the you doing with the salmon

similar totally yeah yeah that's you know half counter count is a big deal they do counts on the

lower and they're always looking at half pounder counts to see the viability of the future stocks

for sure nice nice good well this is great I think there's a ton we could talk about here maybe

let's take it out here and let's just kind of do our wet fly swing pro shout out here segment we

do we like to do here we we get a lot of questions and there are obviously lots of people are

interested in swinging flies and all that today I want to give a shout out to John Jackson there

he's been you're talking a lot about some of the trips we're just getting ready think about where

we're heading next and you know this might be a spot one of those places but first off I want

to give a shout out to John for this one today I want to go to a few tips let's take it back to that

so let's stick on the summer steelhead what are a few things you're telling you know your clients

up there if you're fishing that middle rogue section to have more success I'm definitely

one that tries to keep it as simple as possible so when someone's looking at at flies and whatnot

I really want the angler to believe in their fly that's not really my choice you know I can make

a recommendation so believing in flies making good casts that turn over and sticking with it and

it's just like so much for steelhead for me is a right place right time but more importantly

right attitude so I do feel like we're kind of therapists on the river mostly and so it's just

really we talk about the zen of swinging flies it's just having a good attitude so mostly my

job is to get people out of their day-to-day their work life and whatnot and immerse and connect

with the river I think people who are mostly connected with the river are way more successful so

attitude is a big one for me and just fishing likely water and sticking with it I'm trying not

to overthink it too much rogue steelhead like to rise so you don't need to be fishing heavy sink

tips and big flies not until later to like November let's say so you know floating lines and

traditional tapered leaders is basically all you need and if you're really skating flies and

muddlers like even better is that doable so you can get some fish on the surface oh yeah rogue fish

are really key to into eating bugs on the surface they get pretty trowdy in regards to that so

if you want to skate flies or hitched muddler that's awesome little fish will come up and eat them

they're great they're pretty sporty that way and if it gets tough maybe when the sun is on but like

I even see these fish eat all the time on the sun is up even dry flies you can just bring it

down with like a like a three inch per second per liter and that's basically all you need to do

and then the biggest tip is find the chunky water man find the ledge is find the structure for

summer for summer that's the key yeah totally because he eat you know a lot of people get locked

into fishing the inside of bends and you know what looks good or traditional but like

keep an open mind you know there could be a spot that maybe there's only 10 swings in it but if

there's a flat spot like the river looks like a table right in the middle of a rapid or whatever

it is over some ledges it's like that's where a fish is going to be so be creative with it stick

to the chunk and find the flat spots and be open to it don't just get locked into fishing the

insides just find the creative stuff that's my favorite part get creative right fish the places where

maybe somebody else isn't fishing and and the fish are are they but they're they're not moving

as much when they get up there they're fishing more fish that are staging totally whether they're

staging for a few hours or they haven't been harassed for a week it's hard to say but like a

fish that isn't pressured in that area like I said they're going to spawn in the winter time

they'll stay in that zone right and they they're curious they'll migrate they'll go up and down

and cruise around and check things out but yeah they're they're holding fish is there a during that

time the if you wanted to try to get a schnuck and maybe still on the same trip one would be a good

time to do some folks do that down there incidentally our gas catch should look on the rogue swinging

flies for steelhead so that happens we're not really targeting them I think last fall or two falls

ago this guy dick who's a great guest of ours he caught like a 35 pounder on a swung fly that he

was fishing maybe a three IPS so that fish rose and ate it and this is up this is up in the middle

on the middle rogue yeah so there's schnuck in there that kind of leads me to another tip would be

like if there are a bunch of schnuck around and you're likely steelhead water they're kind of

bullies go to plan B and find water that the schnuck art in because then you'll start finding your

steelhead that's a good tip okay so if there's a bunch of schnuck you don't want to be swinging

there for steelhead go to a different area no they they push it out of there so they'll either drop

back or go to a different zone so keep that in mind that's a helpful tip and in terms of wanting to

be able to do both if you fish with us like we'll fish the middle rogue to like mid november

so if you're around this area in like a november timeline mid to late you could find steelhead

on the middle rogue or upper rogue and then move to the coast and have a shot at finding schnuck as

well and then go the coast yeah yeah totally so november would kind of be your month that's a good

month yeah and november is my favorite on the rogue I call it november because a true fall

fish comes in a different strain of fish oh yeah with that have bigger males that are pretty

aggressive come in so I call it november it's my favorite november yeah so these are so you

got the early fish and then these would be late these what are the fish that come to november

so what are those fish they're true fall fish so we have summer runs that come in like June July

August in September and whatnot but like the true fall fish are kind of that October november

yeah so those are fall fish so those are fish that are essentially kind of like a summer late

late summer steelhead they're not a winner steelhead they're coming into the rogue as uh and they're

bigger for is that right for the most part yeah yeah yeah they're bigger um they tend to be I feel

so I mean every year's different based on ocean conditions and whatnot so but like an average

rogue fish is like five to seven pounds and then some of those november fish are like 10 and

12 and sometimes bigger cool this is great and you guys I know we've done the last podcast we did

in that area I think it was more the upper uh rogue um we were talking about how the the numbers

haven't been dipping going down or you know as much it seems like the rogues maybe a more stable

have you been finding that with the runs because we've heard lots of stories about steelhead runs

around the whole pacific rim of been you know we've had some struggles but what's that been like

for you do you guys consistently do you see lots of ups and downs yeah you know um not as much

and we feel I mean absolutely fortunate for that I think a part of that is due to the migration

patterns of steelhead now we don't know exactly where all steelhead go once they hit the ocean

but we do know that the southern organ fish and rogue fish kind of stay in this region

they're not traveling all the way up you know past Alaska to the coast of Japan they're kind of

staying in this area in the ocean here which um I think is is what's helping them out because we have

you know stricter policies and and whatnot in the ocean for for keeping fish but um yeah so I'm

we're seeing pretty good numbers even if like our fish counts we have a fish count up at the

top of that where the hatchery is by William just damn and then they do these scene net counts

on the lower rogue even if those counts aren't very good they don't put their net in all the time

so and it's only for like the month of October so I don't think we're getting any real-time

data I think the best is the people who are out there fishing all the time we've been pretty stable

for a long time um I know I don't want to James hit but yeah been very fortunate nice so

somebody's listening now and they want to get down in that area what in time a year what do you

think is it kind of sounds like they're it's almost a year around I mean except for the summer

you're fishing out there all the time is there do you find you get more people during certain

times of the year yeah we do the middle middle rogue we tend to see more people like and

and a September October um November when it gets cold we see people start leaving

that's right yeah as you get older especially as you get older you know I think all everybody

if you're not at that age yet eventually I think you I was I know John Shoey is coming on the

podcast here I think next week and I remember I talked to him last time and I said are you still

efficient for winter steelhead he's like nope I'm a you know he's a warm weather steelheader now

this is totally right and I feel like I'm the same way I think there's a lot of opportunities

and not that it's bad because I remember those days when I was loving and I know there's lots of

people still listening that are probably in there whatever the ages and they're still like go

it's strong what's your take on that do you feel like you you kind of tend to more enjoy the the

warmer weather I love warm weather like who doesn't enjoy wet waiting um but I mean I love get my

ass kicked yeah so you're still you're still young enough you still enjoy it yeah but I feel it

you know I'm gonna be 42 in February so I'm starting to feel some things um

you know I've been rowing boats for 20 years so I'm feeling that and joints and whatnot but um

I just you know it's like have a good gear man yeah that's it the gear is amazing yeah you know

because like it doesn't matter how cold you are if you connect with a fish that you don't feel

it think so you know you kind of kind of suffer a little bit and I and I just like suffering yeah

well it's those days the you know the steelheader for sure right you're out there and you could go

days and yet scunked right I mean that's so you could be out there freezing your butt off and not

get a fish and that's that's possibility which is why I think people even love it more yeah so good

cool James well well give me one a couple random ones and we'll get out of here you mentioned boats

we mentioned Woolridge boats at the start um you know Glenn started basically I think the first

pro not not prop at the jet pump really came from him and some of the I think a guy from California but

what is the boat you're on what's that you're the sled you guys have um we we run like a

willies predator it's like an older one and so you know it's got a very slight

degree v on the bottom basically flat it's 16 feet it's smaller it's got a larger engine on

the back that come in you know gets up on foot quick so that we can get in and out of spots

that we need to um it has just enough seats for for guys it's open so we can put spay rods in

there and it's just transport you know very very basic till or drive you know I'm standing up in

the back driving around so we use that and then in the Agnes area we'll run we run drift boats um

I've got a I've got a woody from uh raise river dorkies oh that's cool I saw that boat yeah

that my dad had a raise actually still has a raise river door it was uh it's cool because it's

the rogue let's see you got the two right you got the McKenzie and the rogue style so it was

raised more of a rogue style one has more bend right yeah it's it's got more bend it's

designed uh for you know it's got more of a rock to it so it's designed to run um bigger heavier

white water and they're also wider so like a McKenzie boat there's a lot of like narrow channels

and bedrock ledges that you you go through well gee you also do on the rogue but um their bottoms

are like 48 wide and so like my boats are 54 wide and it's 17 feet oh 17 foot wise yeah so it's

got more broom for everyone it's comfortable it's big um and it's just it's so nice to row like

wood boats are quiet and they drive you know you find a current seam and you just like push once

and they just find the lane and it's like they know where to go it's awesome I love them

that's the advantage of the wood boat is that you you know you've got all these different you

know boats whether it's plastic or aluminum but the wood is just made for the water I've heard

that before right it well and but the problem is well one issue is right you don't want to run

into rocks have you hit it banged any rocks along the way or they how does that handle it

not in that boat but I've definitely hit rocks before I've got stories you know it's like they talk

about you know with anyone they talk about the those who have and those who will um as drift

boaters my wife Kate as she's always like I don't understand why we basically row around in

a sinkable bathtub all the time you know and so you know that's that's that's it's just it's kind

of just like the nostalgic feel of it um and what's really cool about being in port orford like

port orford cedar was you know a commodity right and so this guy buzz whole strum um was from

coquille I don't know if you know that name but he he basically was the first to solo row the grand

canyon in a in a wood boat that he made and he would build his boats from port orford cedar oh no

kidding and what was it what was his name buzz whole strum buzz hokey a whole strum okay yeah and so

that you know I think he died on the the grand broad I was up there with Marty Shepherd this last

fall went on the trip and there's a bridge there in a plaque of where he was said to have been

you know died or like was killed by his wife or oh wow his lover yeah so there's a lot of there's

a lot of history behind that and lore but like buzz whole strum is like my wife Kate's like hero

oh buzz wholesome so he ran the row so he ran the Sam the first person to ever run the grand canyon

of the Colorado yeah totally from like the green river down like the whole entirety of it

oh it's made yeah I mean we I love this as you can tell I think everybody who's listening to

his nose I'm a big drift boat and just boat guy in general but we did a whole series kind of a

drift boat series on this and we went all the way back to like the first boats right the first

person making the boats but then we got into that whole grand canyon thing and we got into the

Martin the guy who basically protected the grand canyon you know he was all those doors right

Martin Linton and he built all those doors which were named each story was named after a river

section that they were trying to protect and what happened was is they basically saved you know

from the dams from rooting the whole the whole thing and so it's a cool story and I think the

grand canyon is amazing because you got those decked over wood boats which are just super intense

yeah those white water doors yeah watch a video I still have nightmares one night nightmares

but the video of those people going through and then you watch them when they dump their boat

yeah but they're designed to flip over though yeah yeah it's really cool so I've been upside down

a couple times not in a drift boat in a raft with gear you know yard sale and it's a crazy

situation have you have you been pretty close have you run the wild and scenic section

through that area do you do that section yeah yeah no that's how Kate and I met as we were on

different crews we have run you know multiple multiple multiple days down the wild and scenic

that's what we did as whitewater boaters and then we started doing fishing trips down there but yeah

that's that's like Kate's dream she's a huge fan of buzz and she wants to build a white water

door and run the grand canyon oh cool yeah that's like which that's a big goal of hers she's

she's an amazing ors woman she's a great boater yeah yeah she's awesome that'll be great well

we'll definitely have to wait to hear when that happens because that's a that's one of mine too

I mean that's actually I think it's a it's a big thing because you got to have a good chunk of time

and building the boat I'm trying to think now I have to we'll get a few links out because I know

we had one female boat builder who was on the podcast and did did that same thing your wife should

you check in with her because she and she not only build a boat but she build it out of I think

would she scrap together I think it's almost like a mix of driftwood and it was kind of crazy but

she did this whole thing and build it and did it but I think it's a cool story but I think the row

going back to that is Roy for me that's almost been that's probably been the highest level thing I've

ever been down to drift boat what is it for you when you go down there do you feel like you know

it's still tricky if you were to go down there or do you always feel pretty confident oh man like

I always say it's like if you feel confident like that's when you should stop rolling

like you should be nervous because you know rivers you know they're they're wild and they're in

control yeah blossom bar is not right you you kind of that one is a little trick you don't you

don't you got to you got two things like if you make a mistake there you you could be in trouble right

yeah totally there's that but like the one that makes me even more nervous than that is meal

creek canyon oh meal creek right the coffee pot the coffee pot man in a hard boat like that's just

it's just it's tricky you know and like and I've been on trips too or I'm helping recover

sunken drift boats you know it's wild I think we had one season like thirteen sank

which ones taken out most of them do you think which rapid oh probably blossom I think blossom is

probably the most high regarded rapid in Oregon but it's like if you run it right it's a class

two right but if you don't yeah well that's I think that's one of my one of my kayak buddies

was tell me about the what makes it a a bigger class four I think you know a class three's or

whatever it is you got to make one move or you or you're done in a class four or the bigger ones

you got to make usually two or more you know and so that one has two you got the picket fence which

you well I guess you got that first move but then you got to get back to the left around that

giant truck boulder or or your toast right yeah the Volkswagen rock but it's it's definitely but

like when you get in a class four then you start talking about consequence so when you when you

scale a rapid it's like how many moves you have to make how much volume of water but then consequences

and blossom bar has consequences on the picket fence so that's that's the thing that makes people

nervous and it can totally psych you out yeah well you're thinking about the way it works for me

is the whole trip I'm thinking about that one even though there's a ton of rapids right there's

ton of big rapids so many and then as soon as you get past blossom you're like you take a deep breath

okay now I can relax the rest of the trip yeah totally there's always and there's a there's a

champagne it's called champagne eddie afterwards and this where everyone celebrates all right past blossom

you know because everyone can finally relax right right that's all well that's and that's the one

that Glenn Woolridge for sure he didn't I'm a grant was talking about this he didn't just blast

out a couple rocks I mean they they cleared that thing I they had to portage I think it was like

a hundred yards or more it was a huge section that was just all rocks yeah so what I what I've

heard from a historian is that that was the old lake bed and so like the river would come to that

point and then it would widen up so there was a big damn downstream somewhere that created a lake

and so that's why there's such a huge deposit of rocks right there oh crazy yeah and so that's

why all of a sudden you're like where did these come from you know um but yeah the rogue is is

one of those places you have to see the first time I went down it I had goosebumps the whole way

I felt like I was at home I'm confident rowing it but I'm always on top of it yeah here yeah no the

rogue is one of those yeah because it's a drop pool so like you go through a rapid and then there's

a big pool at the end and like sometimes you can get complacent because you're just like hanging out

in this glass pool and then all of a sudden you look down river you're like oh man you know like

I got to be on this I got to get ready all of a sudden yeah so it's a cool river awesome cool this is

good well I think we'll we can leave it there for today James will send everybody out to humble

here in flyfishing.com if they want to connect with you on trips or anything you have going or

your art and everything and yeah it's been great man really I love nerding out on the rogue I feel

like it's like we said and there's a lot of different it's not just the rogue like you're down this

unique area where you've got a bunch of rivers and I feel like a pretty unique part of the world

so yeah looking forward to staying in touch with you and appreciate all your time right on David

it's been a pleasure really great talking with you before we head out today just want to give

a big shout out thanks again for stopping by if you're interested in this episode please check in

and let and let James know you heard this podcast here that would be amazing if you're

interested in anything we have going head over to wetflyswing.com slash the shop and that's

the best place if you want to get access there wetfly swing pro anytime and and I'm out of here

I hope you're having a great afternoon hope you're having a great morning and I appreciate you

for coming in today and enjoying this episode we will see you on the next one thanks for listening

to the wetfly swing flyfishing show for notes and links from this episode visit wetflyswing.com