892 | Rainy's Flies: Innovation, Foam Flies, and the Business of Fly Tying with Jesse Riding

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Most people grow up around the smell of cookies or Sunday dinner.

Today's guests grow up around head cement and deer hair.

Boxes of flies on the kitchen table, strangers knocking on the door to pick up some orders,

a mother building a flytime business from scratch in a spare bedroom and eventually running

a fly shop that would help shape warm water and commercial fly tying for decades.

This is the Weft Fly Swing Podcast where I show you the best places to travel to for flyfishing,

how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip, and what you can do

to give back to the fish species we all love.

Jesse Riding is here today to take us into his life and how he came to run the operation

at Rainy's Flies.

We're going to find out what happens when production moved to Thailand.

We're going to get the whole background here, how it started from the house.

They moved this in with the connection to 3M.

We're going to find out how they maintain quality and scale their business and how materials

like foam change the way commercial flies are built and fished.

We also talk about realties intellectual property, the ethics behind famous patterns and

how to respect the originators in the industry.

This is a good one.

We're going to get the backstory on all this plus a great story and a great company.

Here we go.

Jesse Riding you can find him at Rainy's Flies dot com.

How you doing Jesse?

I'm great.

Great.

It's great to be here with you, I'm somewhat honored, you know, so it'll be fantastic.

That's great to hear.

It's been a little while since we've talked about Rainy's Flies over the years quite

a bit, but your mom was on the podcast in 2019 somewhere in there and we got a good

background, but that was a little bit ago, so we're going to probably do a recap and

circle back around on what's been new with Rainy's and everything and just your background.

So yeah, first off, what's happening with you, what part of the country are you at right

now?

Oh yeah, that's a good question.

I do find myself all over the place.

I actually just barely got back from Thailand where our time facility is we own an operator

on factory over there, so I spent about six weeks over there at probably the most perfect

time to be there where it's, you know, lows in the 50s and highs in the 80s and sunny

every day.

So it was a good time to be over there rather than the hot sticky rainy mess that it can

be.

So I just got back from that and I'll be in the Logan office for the next several months.

I will be going back and forth, you know, that's kind of my typical MO once or twice a year

to go back and forth between Thailand and then I spend about 12 weeks of the year on the

road visiting dealers with our full-time sales reps.

So yeah, I'm in Northern Utah as we speak for month or two.

Yeah, and so you're on the road quite a bit.

What's Thailand for those that haven't been there?

What is great about that, Plano?

What's unique?

It must be a pretty amazing place to be.

Sure, sure.

So there's obviously, there's some challenges running an international business.

The first being that it's completely opposite schedule, like currently there are about 13

or 14 hours ahead of us.

So night is day and day is night and traveling back and forth gives you some major jet lag,

of course, but just communicating, you know, like you will work a full day and then you

have to spend an hour on the phone or whatever it is at your night or your morning to try

to catch them at the same time to manage it effectively.

The people themselves are wonderful.

This is in Southeast Asia.

I think Thailand is very different than other Asian cultures.

It's very different.

And the people are very different.

It's so interesting to have such a, you know, it's like a state, you know, it's like

California and Texas, you know, but having them speak different languages, actively have

different customs.

It's the craziest concept for us here in America to think about these countries, whether

it's Europe or in Asia and how different they are from each other.

But it's a wonderful culture, wonderful people.

They drive on the opposite side of the road, so that's kind of a challenge, right?

And of course, it's kind of chaotic, but no, I enjoy Thailand.

I've been over many times.

This last trip was the funnest I'd ever, I'd ever had.

It was just, like I said, probably coupled with the good weather and all of the different

projects and things that I was able to accomplish.

So no, it was a lot of fun.

I enjoy it.

I suppose if you are going to be anywhere, that's not a bad place to be.

Couple that with not a lot of people don't know this, but Thailand specifically, that's

how we get our high quality flies.

There are countries all over the world that Thai flies, but the reason we're in Thailand

is because they're attention to detail.

It's part of their culture.

If you look at their craft, in fact, this is a good test, and maybe we can, you'll

elaborate this later.

But, you know, when you go there as a tourist, for example, or any country as a tourist,

you go to the little flea markets for wherever it is that you buy the little gadgets for

tourist stuff.

You can look at what's made there, and when there's no question that when you're in Thailand,

the things that they make are just heads above any other type of little souvenir that you

could ever get.

And it just goes back to their culture of attention to detail and really elaborate stuff.

So, and we weren't the ones that, at first, went over to Thailand and started a fly-time

factory that was Dennis Black back in the 50s or 60s.

But he figured it out then, too, and we figured it out when we went over the same thing that

man, they really can tie a high quality fly and they're good at duplication unlike any

other country.

So, that's one of the reasons we're there and stay is because of how attention or quality

that we can get out of there, and that's one of our core values is quality.

So, yeah.

Right.

Right.

Right.

I was going over there, you were getting some time, you know, is it all behind the

vice, but describe that a little bit.

Oh, yeah, sure.

So, from a manager, you'll standpoint, it's different.

This time and every time, you know, it's slightly different.

I'll have these sub-projects, like for example, we're launching some new fly.

So, this time, it included, you know, training on some new patterns and just making sure

they're tied to the proper specifications and stuff as well as some new material ideas

that I was having them make and some new procedures of that.

But generally speaking, it's just like managing any corporation or business, you're there

to oversee things, to make sure things are running properly, to help out where you can.

You'll notice little things that are being done that are better than you ever imagined

just say, wow, you guys started doing that, what did you do that, and they just say, hey,

we thought this was a better way to do it, and you're like, oh, it totally is.

How fantastic.

You know, the things they're doing something with multiple steps, and you're like, I don't

think we need to do that.

Why are you doing that?

They're like, we thought we needed to do this way because of this, no, no, no, no, let's

cut that out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I said, you know, it's wonderful to be in the life of business when it's your hobby.

It's just an amazing experience and an opportunity.

But there are very similar business-related things that you do that happen with any business

and the challenges and the growing pains or whatever it is.

So, but every day you show up there and I have an office, but I'm out on the time for

looking at what they're doing.

I'm helping out with stock issues, you know, whether or not something needs to be ordered

or not.

I'm in the die room, you know, like saying, you know, is this the right color for this?

And they'll save up things, right?

They'll save up a lot of issues.

So when you show up, they're like, oh, we have like 10 things we need to talk to you about.

And you're like, oh, man, we could have done this over the phone.

And it would have been not a problem.

Right.

Right.

Right.

So, but yeah, that's what you're doing.

We work kind of a typical day, you know, somewhere between eight and five or six and then we

go home and eat and come back and do the same thing five days a week.

Yeah.

Just work for six weeks.

Yeah, you're there.

We work.

That's awesome.

You know, we had this, we'll put a link in the show notes.

I think it was episode 114 that we did a while back, but take us back because it's been

a little while.

How did Rainey's get started?

What is the story there?

Sure.

Sure.

Yeah, that's a, I'll try to be brief.

It's a long story, I suppose.

But yeah, so the business and the company was started by Rainey writing whose mom, that's

my mom.

So, so she started it in 1971 officially, but in the in 69 and 70, she graduated high school.

She grew up in in Eastern Utah or the UN based in area, if you're familiar with, with

that area.

And she grew up on a farm.

So she grew up, you know, Tom Boy, you know, milk and cows and doing all of the farm work

with her brothers and everything.

And so, fishing was definitely one of those things that you did whenever you could, you'd

fish to local creeks or whatever you could.

So she, that's, that was her background.

She grew up as one of the boys.

When she graduated high school, she got a job at what is the Utah State University Extension

Office there.

So, you know, universities have offices in rural areas to teach a few classes to people

trying to continue their education and whatnot, and she was the secretary for the, the dean

or the guy that, that, that, that extension office.

And he got the broad idea to do, and his name is Art Jones.

There is Art Jones.

I think he's still living.

But he got the idea to do an accredited fly time class, which was just kind of coming

on the scene, right?

You know, this is in the 70s and people have been tying flies for, for a while, but not

overly mainstream.

And, and he got permission to do so.

And there's like 30 people that signed up for the class.

And you, if you ever taught a fly time class, you cannot teach 30 people.

That you have to have like maybe eight or 10 hunt, hunt, hunt around you and you, you

demonstrate and then they do it and you go around and help them.

So, 30 was way too much.

So, he went to a secretary and said, I need you to help me.

I'm going to teach you the pattern before you're going to teach half the class.

I'm going to teach half the class.

And, uh, long story short, it just stuck to her.

She loved it.

She taught that class and she tied better than him.

You know, she just really liked it.

I thought it was really cool.

She knew a little bit about it, you know, people had been fishing flies for a while.

So, she knew what flies and fly fishing was.

I'll be it still in its, you know, technological infancy.

So, she started doing that.

But what happened quickly is that people would come to her and they'd say, Hey, can

you tie this for me?

You can tie this for me because they didn't want to do it.

And so, she's like, well, yeah, but it'll, it'll cost this.

And so, she kind of saw it as a side hustle or what we call a side hustle today,

which is it's like, Oh, man, I can make some side money by doing this.

And eventually she got the bright idea.

She bought a magazine.

I don't even know what, which one it was, some outdoor magazine or fly fishing magazine.

And in the back, you remember the ads that used to be in all kinds of magazines.

And it was an ad for Raymond Rump for someone to tie a bunch of mother minnows.

It was like 300 dozen and they wanted them in like three months.

And so, she called them and they said, Yeah, if you can do it.

And so, she tied 300 dozen mother minnows over a couple of months and sent them off to them

and got a check back.

That's when, you know, the light bolt went off and said, Oh, this is,

I can do this as a product.

What we now call as product, you know, a commercial or a production tire, right?

So, and that was the stark.

And then my parents got married and again,

she just opened up a little spot in the typical extra bedroom office area and tied flies.

And eventually people kept ringing our doorbell and coming by and we'd that come in

and go through our house into that little bedroom and pick out some flies that she tied,

you know, over the weeks and buy them for, which is really funny

because the price there I remember them to this day, we sold them for $1.25, $1.50, $1.25.

What year was that?

What year was that?

It was, well, that happened all the way up through the, through the 80s.

So, so there's still a dollar to it and actually flies now are, I mean, what's an average

fly?

Just that $1.25.

What does it cost now?

Well, I think a three new fly might be $3 for a basic fly, but you can get them for

that same price.

It's ironic that, that the price back then, so, you know, has gone up that much.

It hasn't gone up that much and that's, that's obviously one of the, the issues are one

of the reasons why.

Yeah.

If you look at anything else, you look at fly rods, you look at it, probably everything

else, it's probably gone up a lot in price in 40 years.

But what's up with fly now?

Tell me about that on the industry, why, why is that not, how's that not changed?

I think two things happened, one, it was always something that since flies are consumable,

they were always like, you were forced to kind of, you know, sell for as, as, as little

as possible because you wouldn't sell any if you sold them for what they normally would

be.

Well, for, I mean, if we, if we follow the trends of waiters and rods and whatnot, a dry

fly to cost six or seven dollars right now, that's where it should be.

And frankly, from a Martin Sandpoint and, you know, other people marking stuff up, that's

probably accurate.

But yeah, there are some out there, like big flies that definitely are six, ten dollars.

Yeah, there are big flies that sell for that, but those would sell for 15 or 20.

So anyways, when you, when you really calculate it, but, but those were all domestic flies,

right?

You know, per or, or other tires.

And it became very necessary to go overseas and use a cheaper labor force.

And that started happening.

I mean, like I mentioned previously, Dennis Black did that.

Yeah.

Was Dennis Black with UM-QA?

Correct.

Yeah.

So he did that a long time before anybody else as well, just to try to tap into that.

And part of that is, is the demand or to keep up with demand as well.

I mean, you just simply cannot do the volume you need without a huge labor force.

And it's really difficult.

We did that for a time.

We ran a local university student, about 25 for a time, before we went overseas as well.

Oh, you had tires in the US?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So going back to the, to the story of, of growing, you know, we, Rainy eventually opened

up that little office that was in, in our house and, and she, you know, kept doing it.

But my parents divorced and that had to become, you know, another part of, now, the income.

So she worked a couple of jobs to try to support us for kids, but also we had that.

And so that's where, where I came in is, is people come and ring our doorbell.

And I would have to let them in and take them back to that room while my mom was at work.

And I would sell the flies on a cash basis.

There was no such thing as checks or like we just likely give us money and I had like a

little cash box.

And I would take the change out and give them the change as best I could.

Oh, wow.

So you had people coming by the house to buy flies.

And you were, and you were the cashier essentially.

Yeah.

There was just right in our house, yeah.

But by like 1989, 1990, this is when one of our neighbors, Ellen, who's still a partner

in the business, she's my partner currently because Rainy has now retired and I bought Rainy

out.

But she was one of our neighbors, a single lady and she's like, hey, you know, this sounds

like fun.

Let me, let me help you guys out.

And, and she helped us.

We, we added onto our house.

We built a huge fly shop on the side of our house that was, you know, probably about

1,500 square feet.

And, and we opened up a fly shop in the, in the early 90s and that's when there wasn't

a lot of fly shops, especially urban fly shops that, you know, you had the, the Bob Marriath

and the Bud Lillies of the world that were famous fly shops, but most little urban centers

still didn't have any.

They were just mostly destination.

And that's where we opened up a fly shop and we made it a full service fly shop and

we had a guide service now that we contracted with and everything.

So that was the early 90s.

So I went from helping customers into, you know, our back room to building onto the house

and then actually having a fly shop and I worked in that fly shop and we had that fly

shop for a good 10, 15 years, actually longer, probably more like almost 20 before we decided,

you know, the, the writing was on the wall as our business grew and rainy patterns were

needing to be commercially developed.

That's where we hire local tires to help us keep up with demand and they'd come in

and we'd do materials and stuff.

So when did that shop close down?

Do you remember the year I, because I remember it was, it was like 2000 of one, okay, one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we were, we were selling, as with a lot of businesses, we were, the, the back door,

selling out the back door, you know, like via UPS and, and to other fly shops became so

much more profitable and, and busy that the fly shop out front just became crazy, coupled

with this is when the McKinsey guys who were starting a new flight company came to

Rainy and Ellen said, we want to hire you.

We want to send you overseas to start a flight time operation.

And now who, who are the McKinsey guys?

That's just two that, you know, I can't remember all of their names off the top of my head,

but they started the McKinsey fly program.

They were a bunch of guys that lived in Washington, guys that were well off and I can't

remember most of their names right now.

Within a year, 3M or scientific anglers who was owned by 3M bought them out.

So it was a very short time before 3M basically was employing my mom and Ellen and running

a flight time operation.

Oh, also 3M now, 3M comes in.

This is an interesting twist to the story because 3M who obviously owns, well, used

own scientific anglers, they, they also own Rainy's Flies for a period.

They didn't own Rainy's Flies.

No, we ran the, we maintained ownership and they allowed us.

We said, well, Rainy was like, I'll go over, but I want to be able to tap into that same

labor force and time on flies and we'll just keep those things separately.

Like, we'll, we'll account for that.

Rainy's Flies will be the customer.

Yeah, so Rainy's was setting things up for the McKenzie guys, 3M and then also she was

doing her own thing through Rainy's Flies over and then that's how she built that, yeah,

okay.

Yeah.

So, and then, but it wasn't, it was only three years later that that model or I should

say the model was working, but 3M has really high standards for their profitability, right?

And they were like, whoa, flies are not an overly profitable thing as much as we want

them to be or what we require for one of our subsidiaries.

And so they wanted out and so they said, how would you, would you be interested in buying

the factory from us?

And we said, oh, wow.

Absolutely.

So that's how we did that.

We bought the factory from, from 3M and then it was, it was still Streamworks, it's a

separate entity over there.

And, but the sole customer then became just Rainy's Flies, which is the, the parent company

of it all anyway.

Oh, is it still Streamworks?

Is the factory still Streamworks?

Yep.

That's the still name and the name on the books.

Obviously, when you register a company over there, it kind of sticks and stays, even though

the ownership may change.

So, yeah, so Streamworks is the name of our factory and Rainy's Flies is, is the company

here that, that's the face or that sells the flop is all over the world here.

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I think 3M, yeah, I think they actually sold scientific anglers, I believe now, I don't

think they're sold at, yeah, I think it's actually switched 10 twice now.

All right, well, it's Orvis, I guess Orvis now is, yeah, owns them, I think.

Either way, wow, what a story, so basically that's it, so you've been, you've been obviously

since a little kid, this is all you've known as this whole, you've been in this whole thing,

and then when did the transition happen to you?

I remember myself, because my dad was in the fly fishing business, and I remember when

he started getting older, and we transferred, just in our fishing, I remember I started

fishing more than, and harder than him, right?

Do you remember when you guys transitioned over, what was that like?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, so yeah, I've been doing this for over 40 years, you

know, if you really count those times, and I started, you know, most kids come home to

their, to their moms or their house smelling like chocolate chip cookies or bread, right?

I come home to Griff's head cement, you know, it's just, you know, the whole house smelled

like head cement, or it smelled like wet deer, because she was dying deer hair patches,

you know, it was a very different industry back then, you know, we packaged most of our

own materials, we'd buy them in bulk, and then repackage them, the hairlines and wopsies

didn't really exist, where we were going to flash up today, and you see all those packages

that are prepackaged like that, we had a package around stuff for our flash up, but that's

how I, you know, I came home, did that, I tied flies, but even, you know, my mom was an

accomplished fly tire and fly fisher, and she was a certified FFF casting instructor, and

she did all that through the shop, but unfortunately, she just didn't have the time, which I,

unfortunately, is probably more common than not to really teach me, so I absorbed by

just watching and kind of self taught, you know, I taught myself how to fish, and here's

something crazy funny that you wouldn't, is unheard of today, but we'd have guys walking

to the shop, and they'd be heading up on the river, I'm like 11 or 12 years old, and they'd

say, yeah, I'm going up there, and I'd say, she'd say, oh, that sounds really fun, you

know, I need to take Jesse, then they'll say, well, I'll take Jesse, and so this relative

stranger would take me, I'd go fishing with him up on the river, I'd learn as much as

I could from him, we'd catch a few fish, and then he'd just drop me back off at my

house.

I can even imagine that happening today, I laughed so hard at all the strangers that I

fished with, that you're just speaking me in a flight, I was, it's funny, but that's, it

was a, it was a different time, and what is, and it is a fly fishing space, it is different

today, but most people involved in fly fishing, you would almost trust them, right, I think

a lot of people, yeah, but, but, but so, yeah, I would say, you know, that, that kind of continued

and I just kind of was did my own thing up through my 20s, and sometime in there, sometime

in my 20s, I think there was a day where I went and did something and we fished together

or something, and I, and she looked at me and I looked at her, and, and she just had

this, this measure of pride, and she's like, you've just exceeded me, and I said, I

didn't think of it, I was like, oh, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, I couldn't be happier

at what, that you, you've done stuff, and that goes for the business too, you know, like,

as I, you know, took more and more responsibility and roles and worked on development and sales,

the same thing happened that at some point it just became, she naturally slowed down and

I was going full bore, you know, so there was, there was a time there, when, when it just

definitely transitioned, and so, yeah, as, as well things, that's cool, yeah, no, I, I,

I go back to the, I like the river runs through it, right, I think of that, too, because

it's such a family movie, but, you know, same thing, right, the transition of, you know,

you saw on the watch, you know, Brad Pitt down there casting, doing the crazy cast, and,

you know, you see it, like, he becomes the person, and you guys had that same thing when,

when you transitioned into that, what did that look like for you on the roles that you

guys continue doing the same things, or was it a slow progression to where you slowly

started doing more, and then your mom was doing less?

It was relatively slow, it was just like, it was a natural transition, and then, and

part of that was, it's like one day you just do something new, you're like, oh, I'll

take care of that, I'll take care of that guy, and then that, or that issue or whatever

it is, and then, and then you do it the next time, and the next time, and the next time,

it pretty soon, it's your responsibility, and once you, as with a lot of jobs, once

you get the hang of something, you can start doing 20 different things, and just manage

them all together, and, and I think that was it, it was just kind of a slow transition

into what became, you know, and my roles have changed over the last, you know, 20 years

as well, like, it became important to try to do new things, or different aspects, like

the sales aspect, or the development aspect became busier, and I had to let go of something

that I was doing, and that's just obviously you hire more people, and, and give them those

responsibilities, and, and then they take it from there, whatever it is, so it's, it's

just a natural evolution, and it's, it was a slow process in my case, so, gotcha, this

is cool.

Well, tell me about this on some of the flies, I wanted to hear about, you know, maybe

the products and things you have going, but I know your mom, as we've heard this on

the podcast before that, I think she was kind of known as, you know, first, like, using

superglue, maybe, right, regularly, I think I've heard that, and some other, and foam,

you know, it sounds like your, your mom is there on the forefront of some of these innovations.

Describe that a little bit, do you remember some of those times, and what do you think your

mom is most, most known for out there, what, what do you guys do?

Yeah, that's a good question.

Um, yeah, I, I would say if I had to attribute something to her, and, and, uh, I think it's,

in fact, I know it's a lot of things.

I've seen it in, in the four years I've been in it, the two people come up with the

same thing, uh, states apart and, and don't even know it, but, and back then there was

no social media or anything, so it was, it was certainly more possible, whatever it is,

but, but I attribute her to really adding foam to the industry.

I don't know if we would have it to the extent we have it today without what she did, and

it was simply like, her first pattern was a, a Dave's hopper, and she's like, this sucks,

this is before dryfly floating, but you were like constantly drying your flies off

when they got water sets, so, and so she was like, you said super gluing, maybe like her

heads, many of those deer heads really, really hard and trying to make him like quirks,

but, but really, uh, she saw the, the issue, and she had some foam that was buoyant, you

know, like a sandal or something, you know, or, or we all, you know, there was stuff kicking

around all through the 70s and yeties like that, and I remember one of the first patterns

was simply putting a foam body on a Dave's hopper or a style like that and making it buoyant,

and that became a popular pattern we sold for 30 years. It's kind of dwindled lately,

because there's so many other options. Well, what was that pattern called? She called it

the trimmed deer hair hopper, but add a foam body. And so it, like I said, it was really a,

a variation of Dave's, of a Dave's hopper, but it had her, her own spin on it and it had a foam

body. And then the second thing I remember is she cut little white strips of foam and she tied a

parachute atoms, but instead of a calf tail wing, she used a parachute post, what we call today,

uh, made a parachute wing out of it out of, out of foam and it stayed up all day long and she

then died the foam, different colors or put a marker on it and paint. And so she could make like

orange high vise parachute atoms and stuff like that. And then it just, it just went crazy. She

went to the various foam manufacturers that this is what I'm after. Can you make the

specification? And one of the issues is is it still happens today. They said, sure,

are you going to buy, you know, $100,000 worth? Or are you going to buy a, you know, like so many

linear feet or whatever it is? And so there was some negotiation to say, hey, I'm a small lady,

would you do me a favor? You know, this is a small time deal. If it works, then yeah, maybe

there'll be more colors and options and stuff. But, uh, so she started marketing foam flies,

as well as foam that you could do. And this is before you couldn't walk in, the craft stores

didn't exist, you couldn't walk in and get that EVA foam like you can today as well. And even

the foam we use today, especially formulated for us, we actually have it, we want the right amount

of density, we want the right colors. And so we don't buy anything that's already pre-made,

we have manufacturers that actually make it for us for the most part. There's some stuff that

you go and say, we're after this and they say, oh, yeah, that is a stock item. We sell that.

But, uh, but otherwise, uh, that's what she, what I feel like she really, her mark on the

industry, especially in the 80s and 90s, was adding foam flies to the industry. And that's what we sold,

we sold about 36 initial patterns that were all foam flies and people all over were just like

ordering the fly shops all over were ordering as many as as we could times. Right. So Dave's hopper,

did the original Dave's hopper have foam in the body? No, it did not. Later, he added a foam one.

Oh, yeah. Fast forward, you know, up and, you know, Dave eventually signed on with us and

became one of our flights. And I talked to him about it. I said, you know, why did he do this?

And he goes, he goes, somebody came up with a foam day's hopper and I felt, well, gosh, that's a

good idea. I, I needed to do one too. So I, I added that to the lineup. I left. I left. I said,

you know, that was rainy, like right, like we're at his house, you know, staying and visiting with

him. And this is that Dave, Dave Whitlock, Dave Whitlock, correct. Yeah. And he's like, oh, that's

so funny. I did a full circle. I never even thought about who that might have been. Of course,

that would have been you. You know, right. Anyway, so that's just a funny side story of that.

But that's amazing. Did you have a lot of people like Dave Whitlock on, you know, doing fly?

I'm not sure if you call them signature flies or what you call that, but oh, yeah, you can call

them signature fly designer. We go on fly designers or, or we like calling them innovators as well.

But light designers is the more common term for it. We have about 140 currently. Wow.

Fly designers on on our staff that act not only as a designer, but in many cases, the act is pro

staff, too. And what that role is or what we ask them is, is to not only be continually innovating

new patterns for us, but allow us to send you somebody else's flies, because this is your

wheelhouse. Like if you're a red fisherman, you know, or, you know, red fish, fish fly fishermen,

you know, I want to send you something and tell me what you think about it. Go fish it. You'll

see if it's awesome or whatever. And that's how we actually continually innovate new patterns

or whatever is we get feedback or design sent to us. We obviously develop our own stuff as well,

but we have these fly designers and we've, and that's another cool thing about being in this

industry. It's so neat. It's so awesome to be able to say, I left a mark. It's, I love the fact

that that my mom left a mark on the industry, you know, and with with foam and other things that

she created over the years and the pioneer she was. And then I get to rub shoulders with Dave

Whitlock and Bob Klauser and Lefty Kray and visit with them for hours and spend time at their

house and fish with them and and learn and everything. And that is just so incredible to be

associated with those guys and even guys that just the other industry guys, just because you're

you're in the industry like yourself, you get to hobnob. It's just some of the coolest dudes

and they know so much and you learn so much from what's a real thing to be able to be in this

industry. And that's one of them. It's just to be like, I can't believe I'm sitting here with

David Whitlock, right. This is with Dave right now. And he's and he's tying my fly on for me. I'm

like, Dave, I'll do that. I'll tie my fly. I can, you know, he's like, no, no, no, no, I'll

tie this other one on and you can cast it back up in those that whatever it is. I'm going to

tie on the switch. And you're like, Dave Whitlock is tying my fly on my line right now. How is this

possible? That's pretty sweet. So or whatever it is, I'm, I'm, I'm officially lefty Kray and

Reficient his deceivers like that. Right. So amazing. Like I know how you do that. So who are some

of the other big name signature tires you've had on there over the years? Sure. So yeah, I mentioned

several obviously Kelly Gallup was with us for a time. He's moved more a little bit and he's

such a wealth of knowledge and and my personal favorite fishing is streamer fishing. So to have

that connection and I and we still have a relationship with him in a shop and everything like that.

So what about some of the current people that are maybe selling some of your top selling flies

that are out there? Yeah, sure. Gosh, there's so many to even think about. Who are some of those

folks out there tying for you now? And maybe you could talk about some of the top flies and the

people that are, you know, tying those? Oh, yeah, sure, sure. So I mean, we, I mean, and there's

some an international flavor to, you know, so you can have the standards like, you know, like

paddlers or Will Dornan. He's a, he's a local, I mean, a regional favorite Steve Dalley down in

Arkansas. Oh, yeah, Steve Dalley. A lot of his, his fly, but like legends like Trey Combs,

we do a lot of his stillhead flies. Okay. Bob Klauser, of course, I think I mentioned that

that earlier. But other, other guys like Colby Crossland, he's just a local legend, but I think

he's well-known as a guide on the Green River. We do a lot of his specific flies. A lot of guides

all over the nation, everybody from like Tim Hoshlag to Fred Fossay and Dean Finnerty. These guys,

Oh, yeah. Finnerty, yeah, are really popular in their own, own right and an area. So yeah,

lots of, I mean, there's just a few like, what would be? So yeah, you mentioned Bob Klauser,

obviously, Trey Combs, Steve Dalley. They all have their specialty, right? I mean, that's

the great thing for you guys. And what do you think as far as flies just in general, are those

foam patterns still your top sellers? I mean, I'm not sure if you could talk about that a little

bit, but what are the flies people should, if they're new to you, how do they, should they just

jump in there and search for on your website? What's the best way to find the top flies?

Yeah, so that's a good question. We actually have the largest fly assortment. So we do everything

from A to Z. In fact, we have genres and categories that no one else does. Slow, you know,

from a pattern, just pure quantity standpoint, we do more than everybody else. You do everything.

So if you name, you name fishing for like a shark, shark from the beach, you've got a pattern

that would cover that. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah. So we have big blue water flies that, that

double as a shark flies as well as some big, just bait fish flies. But we do everything from

classic patterns like, you know, and atoms, Alcara Catas, Prince Nymph Haresier, stuff like that,

all the way to all those different signature patterns. And they incorporate all materials.

So not only do we do a lot of foam materials, and I would say we do a lot because we are,

you know, that's one of our specialties is coming up with our own foam shapes and foam materials.

So we do have a lot of foam flies. And maybe that is one of our, it's hard to say because we do

so many materials, we type it all through. And are you selling foam out to others just selling

individually as foam? Yeah, we do. So we don't sell thread and fur and stuff like that. But because

we've created this foam, the flytime materials we do sell are the specialty materials that we

kind of invented or created or had to come up with over the years. And most of that is foam,

but we still do a variety of other things that just aren't commercially available that we've,

you know, come up with. So we do sell almost all of our foam shapes that we use in production

or the sheets of foam, or whatever it is, is available as a flytime material as well. So

and we have distributors that distribute those in Canada as well as, you know,

hairline and wopsie buy a little bit from us and distribute those. Okay. And what is the foam?

When you think of foam, what's the, how would you select foam? You guys, it sounds like you're at

the highest level of this. How do you know what to choose? It sounds like there's different levels

within certain types of flies you're tying, right? Describe that. How would somebody sort through

all the products? Yeah. So obviously it's very application driven. So it depends on what your

fly design is. You know, are you going to want something that is more, you know, you're going to

are you going to strip it and wrap it? Are you going to, right? You're going to just lay it on the

back? Are you going to laminate it to different colors? Do you want just like a popper head?

Right. Let's start with that. Let's say that was like, I'm not just chubby Chernobyl. Is

that kind of, does everybody, oh, I guess there's a question. That'd be my example. Like, let's

you say chubby Chernobyl. What is the foam? Does it really matter what foam you use for a fly like

that? Or, and is that a fly that everybody can just have in their lineup because it's a generic fly?

Yeah. I know that the original chubby was probably that specific name was, was designed by a

specific person and marketed, but Chernobyl ants as themselves have been around forever. In fact,

Rainy was one of the first ones. I don't, she, she thinks, you know, she, you know, coined that name.

It was her and a client on the green river basically said, I want you to tie one of these little ants,

but I need it huge. I want it like a size six for to imitate generic hoppers and crickets and

things like that. And he's the one that said, you know, call it a Chernobyl ant. And she thought,

oh, that's hilarious. You know, coming out of the 80s when the Chernobyl explosion had

had all that radiation stuff. And that's how it got its name. However, I've heard, you know,

that the Montana Chernobyl, that double layer of two mm foam, when it came out, someone was

attributed to that. And they're like, oh, I came up with that. So again, this goes back to that,

like are two people creating the same thing, you know, states away from each other because they

don't have contact with her. Yeah, I think that's what's very happened and I can see it today,

like all the time. But like that, that pattern is relatively generic and it's chassis. And,

and you, you could use any foam. You could do two layers of two mm foam. But I think the,

the current design has been perfected to do three mm foam, which is very unique. We sell three mm

foam. I know it's available. Some, some other places in certain colors. But, um, but, you know,

so yeah, you could make a two mm chubby and it probably wouldn't be as buoyant. You could make

a four mm by putting two layers of, of that on there, but it might flip over. I mean, all of these

are, are considerations. But I think it's been decided. And that's how what we do is we do a,

you know, depending on the size, but we pretty much do a three mm sheet of foam in one color,

throw it on top of the, the, the hook with a dubbing bass typically or some other bass. And that

is what you'd call EVA foam for the most part. But EVA foam has different densities. Ours is very

dense. We have ours about a 60 pound density. Your average craft for density is less than half that.

And that's good and bad. It's easier to wrap. It's easier to tie with. But it's not as durable,

right? So, so that's, that's the difference. So, you know, when we're, we're creating foam,

we're looking at applications. One of the reasons why we use such dense foam is because we use the

same stock foam to shape our poppers. And if you tried to shape, you know, just imagine that

really soft craft foam, if that was a popper like that thick and you tried to shape it, it would

just tear up. It just tears. It shreds. So you actually need some density more like a piece of wood

to be able to get it to shape. And all of these are shaped by hand, you know. So they are.

Yeah. So we do, we do that. And so, you know, that's one reason we use dense foam. But

we have our other zote foam that is our EVA zote, which is much softer, less dense foam.

And arguably more buoyant. The trapped air sacs in it are larger. So it's a little bit more buoyant

as long as you don't crush all of those air sacs in time. You could have even a more buoyant

foam that way. And you could use that foam for, I say, a tripe Chernobyl or the like. So,

again, foam is is is very application driven. And I think all foam is closed cell. Or else,

you wouldn't be fishing with it because it would sink, right? So it worked generically speaking.

It's all closed cell. And you're really talking about density. So you're, you, you, and that's

stiffness, right? Or whatever you want. How do you attribute that? And that's how you decide. You'd

say, Oh, I want a really stiff application, a durable application, or I want something really,

really soft, right? Need something soft. And that's the application you choose that. And then,

obviously, the next factors are sizing color. Like, does this come in a small diameter? Does this

come in a small size or fit thinness? You know, whatever your application is for an overwing or,

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As far as the tying, it sounds like you've kind of obviously been doing it forever. Are you the

one that's good when you go over there? Are you showing the the tires, the new patterns or,

you know, is that or who's doing that? Not for the most part. We have a production manager and

and every place has a has several tires that are the best tires you have and they end up being in

that role and they do most of the training. When I was over there, I showed a few techniques,

you know, I'm like, oh, this isn't right. It needs to be like this and they'd go, what? And I'd say,

here, and I'd walk right over to their vice and I'd say like this, right? Yeah, you have to build

that up first before you put the little body in and whatever it is. So it angles off at the right

way and they'll go, oh, they got, you know, like they understand, you know, like so. And so,

so I know I do very little that most of the time I'm here. So I simply have to send patterns and

then they figure out and we'll we'll cover any issues like when they send back the production

samples or they we do a lot of teams or what used to be zoom and we'll cover things over the video.

Like this is what it looks like. I'm like, oh, this is this is why. And then sometimes we'll make a

video and I'll email the video or I'll find the technique on YouTube. I'll say, oh, this is how

you do this. You have to pull this down and do this kind of stuff, but they are incredible tires.

Like I said, going back to just the culture of the Thai people. Once they learn that, they can pick up

things really well. And that's another thing to be said for these tires. A lot of people will ask

this question. They'll say, who's the best tire in the world? And people might say stuff like

Charlie Craven or Yali Gallup or something. I'm sorry to say they're not, they don't move close

because I've been over at our production facility and I know like 10 of our tires are better than

any tire I've ever seen in my life. You can give them anything. You just hand them a fly and they'll

like they'll say, okay, and they'll go to stock, pull the materials and tie it better than the sample.

They're that good. And I know some of the other production managers from their

time firms right there in Chiang Mai where we are. There's other companies that are there,

some of our competitors are there. And we have a good relationship with those firms because we

trade materials or we talk and just, you know, cover the same challenges and try to make agreements

not just still tires when tires try to play both sides and say, hey, I want to come work for you

and you're like, well, do you work for somebody else because we're not going to steal you because

we have an agreement. We want to still tires because once we train you, you know, we don't want to

play that game, but we try to have agreements with them. And they are the best tires in the world.

So if you pick the, whoever it is, like generally speaking, you know, whether it's, you know,

umquas, tie a fly or a Montana fly or, or, or reines or whoever it is, those, those production

managers are the best tires in the world. That's who we should be giving awards to as an industry.

In my, yeah, we should really recognize those that run the factories and do all of the commercial

ties because those, those are incredible tires. I'm never going to get to that level. I look and I

just shake my head. I'm like, I don't know how you, how do you do that so fast, so efficiently,

they don't even use half the tools we do. Their tool caddies are like nothing. They'll use a

razor blade instead of a pair of scissors because it's faster. No kidding. Yeah, they'll just be like,

oh, I don't need to cut my throat at scissors. I'm going to use a razor blade and they go, boop,

and pop it and you're like, oh, yeah. And they tie all the knots with their hands no matter where it is,

no matter what. If it's in the head or the middle of the body, so they don't deal with, they don't

have a whip finish tool. Yeah, they don't, they don't like whip finishes. And honestly, that's

something that I've learned from them too. I always knew how to hand whip finish, but I realized

really fast or soon by watching them how much faster it is to not have to stop and pick up that

tool. And I just learned exactly by watching them. I said, oh, I just do all whip finishes by

hand now. That's so much faster. And you pull back everything and you do it and they have certain

techniques and ways that they do it so fast and so efficiently because they're piece great, right?

So they want to be as fast as possible. It's amazing what they can do with a pair of utility

scissors and a bobbin. So do you do any, um, any tires? Are you guys out there on YouTube doing

showing flies and all that stuff? Not overly. Yeah, I mean, we've, like, what's happening now or

people over the years have come and said, hey, can we grab some of your flight designers or you

or whatever it is and do like a little demonstration? So there's some videos out there, but we don't,

we don't publish the do a YouTube channel where we do that. We, we have a YouTube channel that

we publish new flies, but we don't actually do a time time videos. Oh, you do. Yeah, new flies,

right? You have some stuff. Yeah, cool. Well, there's promotional stuff, but and and that just kind

of goes back to, uh, you know, we at the end of the day, we, we support flight tires, but we're

a tiny infirm. So we don't, we don't want people to tie on their own necessarily as much as they

want. We want them to buy our flies, right? Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's

interesting. The whole thing of the flight time is, is interesting how it works because it's like

there's this, um, you know, you can, if you have your signature tires or how does that work? If

somebody's listening now and they wanted to try to become a tire for rainy's, how does that process

work? Is that something where you, you're reached out to people or could they reach out to you?

Both. Yes. Sometimes I, whether I'm on the road or whether or not someone, uh, a friend of a

friend or a designer says, Hey, you know, I got this buddy that does it. And I'll reach out to

him. I'll say, Hey, I hear that you've got some really cool flies or I'm at a time show, you

know, or regular consumer show on there's a tire and I'm like, Hey, I don't think you're affiliated

with anybody. I keep tabs on everybody in all our computers. I don't, you ever considered doing,

you know, submit your patterns and there's always that arm wrestle sometimes with like, well,

gosh, these are my like secret flies. I'm like, God, these are my secret flies. I don't want them

commercial. You know, I don't want them out there. I mean, whatever it is. But in the end,

most of them will do it. And otherwise, people find themselves approaching us directly. And that's

how most, most people do. So we have a program like I meant, we mentioned earlier, there's over 140

fly designers that are currently submitting and we have, we're producing their fly designs on a

royalty basis. But yeah, we welcome all submissions. You don't have to be a famous celebrity fly tire

or anybody. We look at the fly. And if it, if it's interesting and cool and as a need and it's

different, then it's on the table. And obviously we get tons and tons of those every year and we

only can come out with so much because we have a production capacity. So as much as I'd love to

launch, you know, a couple hundred new flies every year, I only have the capacity to do some

between 50 and 100. And then every three or four years, I have to discontinue a bunch that aren't

selling as well just to make space for those additions each year. But yeah, we welcome anybody else.

They can reach out to us through our email or whatever it is. And I can send them the program

details. But essentially, if you have an interesting pattern or patterns, you know, that you think

are unique, we welcome you to submit those to us. We require samples somewhere between three and six

of each pattern, a recipe, a detailed recipe explaining what it is, including what the model number

of the material is, you know, not just like this is some sort of synthetic fiber. I want to know

exactly is it, is it this blender or whatever it is? So a detailed recipe, and everybody knows what

those look like, but we have a form that a lot of they choose to. And then we have an evaluation

process. We always work about 18 months in advance. And we also are very much on top of the trends.

Since we self-lies in every genre, we can actually see by genre, we can say, oh man, we can see

carp flies are starting to increase. We can see that increase or we can see still water, which are

two growing categories right now, increase. And so when people submit stuff to us or we're developing

patterns, we'll develop them in those genres, because we know within the next 18 months,

that'll be the hot thing, you know, and we see all those craze is coming sometimes they're fads,

and they fizz a lot after a year or two, but sometimes they stay for a very long time. So we have

everything already. So there's not like a specific people say, well, what are you looking for? I'm like,

I want to see best work. I want to see what you are famous for, what your best work is, because we already

have everything. I want to see what else is out there, and what else you've got up your sleeve,

and if it's new and fun, and it might replace current things or wherever it is. And then we go

through that evaluation process where we fish it ourselves, we send it to our pro staffers,

which are many of our designers, and we also send it to some of our key dealers. And we say,

hey, what do you think of these flies? And we send them, they can fish them, they can swim them,

they can just look at them, but they'll, we ask them just to anything that stands out to them,

write us a note about it, and send it back to us, and we send those around the country.

Additionally, the 12 weeks that I'm on the road visiting key dealers, I'll actually have a little

Plano box of them, and I say, hey, we, you know, we just finished, I showed you the new flies for

this year, and what we're working on, and soliciting orders and things like that. But here, take a look

at this box for a second. Tell me what you think of any of these, and I don't tell them who they're

from or anything like that, and I watch them pull them out, go, man, that's awesome. And it happens

frequently, they're like, so this isn't available right now. I said, no, this is something we're

thinking about in the next year or two, and they're like, can I have some right now? I'm like,

absolutely, I was hoping you'd say that, because it allows us to run it as a custom for them,

and they get to sell it, they get the exclusivity, they love that, and then it really shows

whether or not something's going to fly or not. So we do a lot of things custom ahead of time,

and then we'll put it in our catalog a year later, something after we know that there's a good

demand, it works, that the fly shop was happy with it, sometimes a couple of them will do it.

So there's this long evaluation process, and before they send them to us, we hope and assume

that they've tried them themselves, that they've fished them for a number of years,

that dialed them in. In some cases, we're aware of the pattern, we've seen it.

Right. Yeah, because that's a question you wouldn't want to get a necessarily a pattern that,

you know, how do you vet the pattern, right, that it's going to be, it's going to catch fish,

or I guess all patterns kind of catch fish in some way, right? Yeah, yeah. But yeah,

we're pretty stringent, make sure that they are designed well, and there is a portion,

we go back to the designer and say, this is a great idea, but I think this needs to be better here,

or this, and we won't just fly with that, we'll get their permission. In some cases, we'll say,

we'll just go ahead and do that, like when we put it in production, because we want to do it,

we'll just make sure we add this element to it. And they're like, great, that's fantastic,

or they'll say, oh, that's a good idea. Let me tie up some more samples, trying that, I'll try

on myself, and then I'll send you the new updated version. So we'll work with designers over a

period, a new designer like that could be, you know, period of a year or so to dial something in

that we think is a good idea that he's had success with, but that could be better, or current designers,

we work with like constantly, our current designers are constantly submitting stuff to us as well.

And the same thing applies, like we'll say, hey, this is a good idea, but we were thought about

doing this, and they're like, oh, that's a good idea, let's do it. It's rare that they say,

oh, that's a terrible idea, like I want it to stay the way it is. It's usually the other way around,

or it's already dialed in so perfectly that we're like, oh, this is fantastic. And we do get,

you know, we ask it to be innovative and different and stuff, you know, we do get,

we don't want to compare it on, or a parachute may fly, like those are, those have been done,

and some people still send those to us, they're like, hey, I came up with this, and they're,

they're beginners, and they just aren't educated enough in the industry to know that certain

patterns are either, or we'll get somebody else's, somebody will knock somebody off at a willing,

or knowingly or unknowingly, and we'll say, this is exactly like another commercial pattern of

one of our competitors, we don't play that game, we're not going to do it. And we do our best to,

that's why I, I try to educate myself in other patterns so that I don't step on toes or make

that mistake. And I, and I, I have before, like I have, I've added a pattern that I didn't know

was something out there. I added a pattern that was somebody's, but I, but I thought it was a

regional pattern. I didn't have, I liked the pink squirrel, if you know that one, like that one

is a funny, funny story, like I saw that, and I'm like, what is this pattern? And everybody,

every flashup told me it was just a regional pattern been there forever, and it wasn't anybody's,

which was a total lie, they totally knew with somebody's. And so I put it in the catalog,

and it was there for like two months, and somebody finally told me they said, that's John,

John Bethke's, and I was like, oh man, I called him on the phone with me, they, I told him exactly

what I just did, and I apologize, and I said, I, this is not, this is not what I want to do,

and he said, and I said, but by way of making this right, how would you feel about doing this,

as a commercial pattern? Like we got the cart before the horse, but now, you know, whatever

he says, that'd be great. So we just signed him immediately. He was really nice about it and

knew that it was an honest mistake and appreciated the call. And that's an incredible pattern,

you know, regionally in the upper Midwest, I mean, you're in this, we sell a thousand dozen of

those in every squirrel. It seems like, yeah. So that's an example of, of, of sometimes getting

in the carper for the horse. And of course, there are patterns that are similar, you know, once a

technique is created, you know, like there are elements that get regurgitated. And that's one of the,

the downsides you want something innovative and new, but it's really hard. Sometimes the wheels

already invented and you just come up with variations. And so we, we, you do that a little bit as well.

So yeah, that's cool. So we're going to do the Toyota trivia today. And today, the way this is

going to work is this is presented by Toyota. Obviously, we're going to be giving away a fly

sortment from Rainies. And we're going to have a question here. So people listening now, if they

want to go to Instagram, there'll be a post on Instagram. They can basically reply to a comment

there. If you know the answer, and then I'll select one person at random out of the people that

get the correct answers. And we'll give them a fly pattern assortment from Rainies. So, so here it

is. So the question is, what common household adhesive became one of the first major game changers

in modern fly tying, especially for durability and commercial production? So that's the question.

If you know the answer, go ahead and throw that in there. And also just at mentioned Toyota Pacific

and at Rainies flies on Instagram. And then we will choose a winner and we'll get that up to you.

And that's going to be how we're going to do it today. So big shout out to Toyota. I'm a big fan.

I drive a pickup. I love the Toyota. So as we get into our random segment, Jesse, tell me this.

First off, I always love to ask, are you what's your vehicle of choice? What are you driving out there?

Oh goodness. You know, I have a couple of vehicles. I have a Chevy and a Ford. So I drive a Ford

expedition. Yeah, I have a Chevy van and a Ford expedition. So the Ford expedition is definitely

the fishy vehicle. That's what gets me into the backcountry or whatever it is. And the Chevy van

is what I do with road trips with. So yeah, love it. I love that you have the Ford and the Chevy,

right? That's always the, it's always the interesting, right? The fight between Ford and Chevy,

but you've got both. So yeah, yeah, that's fun. Okay, cool. So we got that taken care of.

Let's go back to, like we said, the patterns of genres. What are those up hot? You mentioned

steel, water and carpet. There are a few that you're seeing right now that are up and coming that

are really starting to get more traction. Do you see that in your sales? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean,

it's, it's one of the fun things to sit there and watch, you know, like the Euro-Nymph

craze, which is kind of plateaued a little bit, but still like it plateaued at a high level.

And carp fishing was really popular 15 years ago. And it's, it's making a resurgence now.

Still water is, and I think both carp and still water are growing because more people are trying,

they're using their standard five or six weight rod and trying different species using the same

gear. They don't go by new gear. They have to buy maybe new slides and rig differently. But otherwise,

that thing, that's why they're growing is because there's so many people on the rivers or whatnot

that it's, they're just, and or they just want to try new things. They're doing that. I also see

destination travel getting bigger and bigger. I mean, post COVID, now it's bigger than it ever was

before. So people are going, you know, into the Bahamas or the Caribbean and or South America or

wherever it is Alaska even and just trying different genres that way. So you see those type of

flight categories growing consistent growers are the flats, the salt that's always every year.

It's just a little bit higher and then warm water. Warm water is our largest category.

Not only probably in, I mean, trout, trout fishing and the freshwater is definitely,

I mean, we sell more woolybuggers and and prince nymphs than than any other. I mean,

those are some of our top selling flies. Those are still the top. Yeah. But if you wanted it,

if we take out classics, then you start seeing our top selling patterns warm water is,

is one of those categories and it and that goes back to the same thing. I think it's historically

always you'll see new freshwater anglers going into the warm water and so the warm water being

bass or something like anything. Yeah. Yeah. They want to catch bass sometimes even pike and musking

things like that. But it's really taking your current gear and going in and trying to catch some

panfish or bass. And and so we've consistently grown that category to where now you open our catalog

and that is the largest section. It's by far, you know, you're like, wow, and it's been a real

profitable business for us to do. And of course, with foam, it makes it easy to we took all of those

traditional deer hair bugs that were being tied in the 70s and 80s and we made foam heads form.

And that's another thing that that helped us to grow that category is and that's something that

wasn't being done at the time was changing the traditional deer hair bug to a foam popper. That

wasn't being done. That was something rainy did as well, you know, and and that we still have

patterns that are 30 years old that we're still like crazy because they became standards.

But yeah, I think some of our top selling flies outside of the classics could be like in the flats,

we have the Casablanca rag head. That's just a huge seller. Bob Klauser's Klauser Mino, which

I some might argue that is a classic pattern, but at the same time, it is still a signature pattern.

That's one of our incredible. Yeah. So the Klauser Mino is one of rainy signature patterns.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Bob Klauser is living well down in Florida and enjoying himself with his wife

and we still pay him a royalty. We'll continue to pay his wife a royalty if and when that time comes.

But yeah, when does a fly become the Klauser is almost, you know, or lefty's deceiver.

There are almost these flies that are so well known that they're becoming. What's the word?

You know what I mean? It's like duct tape. Yeah, mainstream or whatever it is. Yeah,

they're certainly being tied by by most firms. Oh, they are. Yeah. And they have been for a while,

probably unethically so. Right. Because so if he's tying, if there's a Klauser Mino at some

company, they're selling it as the Klauser Mino, they're not paying Bob a royalty. Yeah, they're not,

they're not. And so his intellectual property is basically being taken and that you can attribute

that to a lot of different patterns. And I suppose to some extent maybe we're all a little guilty of

that if we borrow technique or something like that. So it's it's hard. It's a hard argument,

but generally speaking, yeah, I don't think and I've talked to industry greats and they they,

I said, you know, when does a pattern become mainstream and no longer signature? And they're like,

never. I'm like, even when you die, they don't know never. Like it's intellectual property.

I think legally, you know, most of them don't have design patterns or or patterns on it.

And if you did, you change it 10% it would change it. So there's really no legal option for it.

I think mainstream, you know, like 50, 50, 60, 70, 80 years, I think everybody embraces that

as as any design that's been out there for that long can be can be reused. But most of these aren't

that old. Oh, what is the time? What was the time range? I'm just saying, you know, like whether it's

like a me, you know, in the music industry or something, you know, I think I think it's like 60 or

70 or 80 years that it becomes mainstream. Oh, right. There's no longer all the patterns run out on

the copyrights better set. And I think that would probably be more than acceptable as far as flies.

But but most fly designers and that's who really I should have the opinion about it. It's not

it's not necessarily the average fly fisherman or producer flies. It's the guy who designed it.

When does he think that it does? I think most would it would say that it that it really never.

It's until I've been for a long time. Yeah, the cool thing is is like with the clouds are

middle. I mean, the great thing is is if people want to support Bob and the great fly, they would

go to rainy's because you're actually paying him a commission, right? That would make sense. Yeah,

we pay him a royalty. Yeah, you get you pay him a royalty. So it makes sense to go to rainy's

and you support Bob by buying flies to rainy's. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there's the pattern rainy's

grand hopper that she came up with 25 plus years ago, 30 years ago. It's still one of our top selling

flies. It is an industry staple in almost every fly shop, especially here in the West and

and beyond sells the grand hopper. That's an extremely popular fly for for us. And of course,

we have, you know, regional and cult favorite flies all over the place, but a lot of rainy's

bass poppers are sell all over the place as well. And then blue water stuff, you know, like our

offshore flies. No one really is doing anything like that. That's one of our our categories that

is unique to us. And so, you know, if you want something like that, you have to, you know,

come to rainy's for the most part anyways. Right. That's right. And offshore is definitely one of

those small niches, right? Like what percentage of people are offshore fishing. Yeah. It's not

small, but but each fly costs 20 bucks, right? Or more. Oh, wow. Yeah. So yeah, they're these flies

are 10 to 14 inches long and they take hours and hours to do it. But you're, I mean, you go on a

blue water trip, you're you're dropping, you know, five to 10 grand, you know, I in 500 to a thousand

dollars with the flies. And they're the flies don't, I mean, unless you you're knots break or

something, you're going to be fishing that the whole week, you know, so for the most part. So

as with any wealth, well-tight fly, you know, and that's that's again, one of our core values is

the type flies that are extremely durable and invaluable. You know, you you might pay a little bit

more, but you're going to get, you know, I always say you want to buy a two fish fly or a 20 fish fly.

And I think we've all experienced that where you buy, you know, the less expensive flies and the

quality is just not as going to be as great as a premium tide fly. And it will fall apart faster.

So yeah, exactly. Nice. So yeah, I think that we've hit on this today pretty well. I feel like

we've got a good background on, you know, the fly fishing industry and then tying and really have

some good patterns to move forward with. I think today, Jesse will leave it there. We'll send

everybody out to reneesflies.com if they have questions for you. And of course, if they want to,

like we said, win Toyota trivia, they can answer the question on Instagram and we'll take them

there. But yeah, I appreciate all your time today. This has been really great to, again,

hear all the background and look forward to staying in touch with you. Yeah. Yeah, it's been wonderful.

I appreciate the opportunity. It's it's always fun.

All right, before we head out here, if you get a chance to check in with Jesse, reneesflies.com,

let me know you heard this podcast. That would be amazing. If you're interested in the next trip we

have coming. That is Montana Fly Fishing Lodge. You can check them out right now. That's Montana Fly

Fishing Lodge. We're heading there this year. Montana Spring Creek Fishing and all the rest,

let me know if you're interested and we'll take it from there. I want to give a big shout out next

week. We've got hunting with a fly, our new podcast, our new podcast series Rick Custich is here. He's

going to be leading this new series on hunting big fish with a fly. I'm excited to launch this one

next week. This is going to be fun. So stick around. If you haven't already, click that subscribe

button. If you have any questions, if you haven't checked with me, please send me an email,

Dave at www.flyswing.com. Always love to put together a content for anybody who reaches out.

Especially if you haven't checked in, do it now and we'll look forward to it. We'll look forward to

it. We'll look forward to it. We'll look forward to it. We'll look forward to it. We'll look forward to it.