894 | Long Island Fly Fishing with Paul McCain of River Bay Outfitters

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Fly fishing has a habit of showing up where people least expect it.

Sometimes it's tucked away behind city limits, threaded through small spring creeks, mill

ponds, and salt marshes surrounded by millions of people who have no idea it's there at all.

And when that happens, the fishing isn't just about the fish, it's about access, history,

and the people keeping it alive.

That's the world today's guest lives in.

Paul McCain is owner of River Bay Outfitters, the only dedicated fly shop on Long Island.

And he spent decades fishing guiding and building community across an area, most anglers only

associate with traffic and shoreline views.

In this conversation today, we're going to take a deep dive into Long Island of what

the spring creek scene looks like there, what he's doing with this warm water fishing and

all the salt water out in this area.

This is going to be a good one.

This is the Weftly Swing Podcast, where I show you the best places to travel to for

fly fishing, how to find the best resources and tools to prepare for that big trip.

And what you can do to give back to the fish b-sheets that we all love.

Today we're going to dig into Long Island, fishing we're going to find out all the history,

we're going to talk about spring creeks, we're going to get into the brook trout fishing

there, and some history, we're going to talk about some of the cool conservation work

that's there.

And just all the history that is Long Island and everything Paul has going there, this

is a fun one.

I can't wait to share it with you today.

So let's get into it.

Here he is, Paul McCain.

You can find him at riverbayoutfitters.com.

How are you doing, Paul?

Great.

How are you, Dave?

I'm doing great.

Yeah, this is going to be a fun one today.

We've connected a lot, actually, and kind of the north-eastern part of the country.

And today we're going to dig back in.

You're the, I think one of the, maybe the only fly shop in Long Island, or at least

you're the main one out there covering a, yeah.

The only dedicated fly shop.

A lot of other stores do have some fly fishing equipment, but that's all I do is fly fishing.

Okay.

Riverbayoutfitters is the name of your shop, right?

Right.

Cool.

Well, we're going to talk today about everything you do at the shop, but we always love, you

know, talking a little shop talk, and we might dig into some potentially bass fishing.

You cover salt.

You cover a little bit of everything today.

But before we jump into all of that, maybe take us back on your background.

How'd you get into fly fishing and then what's your first memory out there?

Oh, so, you know, I fished as a kid, but come around age 16.

I kind of gave it up, you know, started dating and all that, then in my 30s, I was looking

for something.

And I actually went to an outdoor show.

And there was a fishing group called the Long Island Fly Rotters, I had a booth.

They were time flies.

And I had no idea about any of it.

And I got interested.

And so I went to the first being signed up right away.

Then I went out and bought a rod, not a great rod, for sure.

Right.

What was the first rod?

Did you buy like a package rod or did you buy a rod?

A reel.

So we, you know, I didn't even know about fly shops, but I went to the local bait and tackle

guy.

And he had like a cheap, barkly $50 outfit, and that was what I used.

I used it very, very quickly, I realized it wasn't a great tool, very quickly, you know.

So then I ended up going to finding a fly shop and going in and buying a really nice rod.

At the time, it was high end over $300.

And I thought that, oh my God, that's, that's crazy.

But to this day, I still use that rod.

That's the over 35 years, you know.

So in what was the rod, that $300 rod that you still have today, what, what is that?

H, graphic three.

Oh, sage.

Yes, sage.

Seven and a half foot, four weight, two piece.

It's perfect for a long nylon streams.

It is.

So seven and a half foot, four weight is perfect.

Why is it shorter?

Why not the longer rod?

Our streams are small and overgrown.

In fact, we have three major streams on Long Island, but they're small.

They call them rivers, they're not rivers, you know.

Yeah.

You can, you go, you go way to cross and never get above your knees, you know.

Huh.

They're all spring.

That's cool.

That's why I went with that rod.

I like that size.

And even when I personally fish now and I do a lot of guiding, I use a seven and a half

foot four.

Wow.

This is great.

Yeah.

So lots of spring crews describe that.

I mean, I know we've talked.

We've had some podcasts in that area, but Long Island specifically for people that aren't

familiar with it, maybe describe, you know, where it's located, kind of in the fishing.

It sounds like is it a mix of trout and saltwater?

It's a mixture of everything, everything, everything.

And I'm located closer to the city.

In a Long Island part, there are two burls on Long Island, Brooklyn and Queens, two

five burls.

Where I live, we have seven million people.

Wow.

There we go.

And, you know, we're really packed in.

But people are real.

You know, Long Island is 115 miles long.

And you get out east, now you're really fond country, you know, you leave the city behind.

And we have spring creeks.

We have over a thousand miles of shoreline for saltwater.

And we have over a hundred fishable ponds and lakes and 30 miles of streams.

So here, and we, and you could tell they touched, you know, the hand of man on all these.

I mean, the parks, all these streams were at one time private sportsmen's clubs.

They're well manicured and everything.

And now the state has them because the clubs couldn't afford to stay in business.

Oh.

You know, and we're talking very wealthy people, you know, and the club houses and there's

a lot of history there.

Yeah, there's a lot of history.

I mean, obviously, there's, you know, from the beginning of the country, right?

I mean, New York has always been the place.

And then fishing wise, do you know a little bit of that history?

Have you dug in?

Are you a big history buff on the fly fishing?

Yeah, I'm a fly fishing nerd.

You know, nice.

That's what I like.

That's my favorite.

That's my favorite.

History, you know, I actually like, you know, I like tie and flies and I like tying the

old patterns, you know, the old streamers and all that.

So basically the connect, what is the big, big club?

And that was the, that was outside sportsmen.

And there's, they were three dormitories.

I mean, it was a pretty wealthy club and their big thing was fishing and hunting, duck hunting.

So there's ponds on the property and there's the stream, well, manicured.

It's run by the state now.

What is the closest town to the connect quad?

So the closest town is the major one is really, well, Oakdale.

But that's, it sits in Oakdale, actually.

That's where they've, so I'm 15 minutes away from there, all right?

Okay.

And where are you into your, your west of Oakdale?

I'm west of Oakdale.

I'm way, I'm like 10 miles from the city line, you know, I as a, you know, when I started,

I got really into it.

I would, there was a fly shop in Oakdale and I used to go all the way up there just to,

to the fly tying classes once a week, you know, so that was back in the 80s.

So.

Great.

Yeah.

I get a feel this is, you know, a long island.

I knew there was going to be a lot of, you know, opportunities to talk about different

species.

But I mean, yeah, the cool thing is you have, you mentioned the spring creeks.

So maybe describe that a little bit, you know, if somebody was going to head out there

and fish the spring creeks, talk about that.

What are the main species and, and it sounds like it's pretty small, small creeks out

there.

Right.

The, the biggest one, actually, I didn't even realize this was, is the nested quack.

And there it was a private club that ran it and it's called Caleb Smith State Park.

But it was part of the wine dance hunting and fishing club.

There we go.

Often people owned it and they gave it up.

Both the, that, the cave Smith Park and the, the Kinect Watt State Park are, they're

fee based.

You want to fish it?

There's a $25 fee for four hours.

So you really have an opportunity in a stream that's maybe 20 feet across, catch a fish

that's anywhere from, you know, 10 inches all the way up to 22 inches.

It, so it is what it is.

It's a great place to learn.

I guide out there.

I like it because you can see how the fish react to the fly.

You can see the fish.

But there's another park called South Haven and that's Armin's River.

Run by the state, not by this county, it's more wild.

There are sections of that where you can actually catch native brook trout.

They don't stock up past a certain point and it's, like I said, we're talking really

small, pockety water, really small water, braids going through the, you know, bubbling

out of the ground, the springs.

And so you'll see, you know, in the evening with hatches on and a big, a big brookie is

around 12 inches.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, that's big.

Yeah.

That's a big one.

Most of them are in the, you know, 78, but they're not easy because they're wild and

they're smart.

Yeah, that's what we love.

I mean, the brook trout is, I mean, I think that's what a lot of us, you know, listeners

and people around the country love is just those native species, right?

It sounds like this is a place where you can get some different other species.

I'm sure right, browns, rainbows, whatever, but if you wanted to find those native fish

that have been there for millennia, right, you can still find them on Long Island.

You can't.

There's also a push.

So all these streams at one time were damped.

They'd be four millponds.

We had a very back in the 1800s, I mean, Daniel Webster, well, you know, that's made

a blow.

You know, if it's a story or you're not, Samu Carmen, he was actually credited with

catching a big fish and then everybody said, Daniel Webster in 21.

But these were all saltists.

They would go out and come back in.

Oh, so these are brook trout that went out to the ocean?

Yes.

Out to the bays and all that and would come back.

So where the push now is through these dams are, you know, they're old, they're falling

down.

There's a lot of maintenance to them.

Right.

Yeah, you got to, you got to basically, when you have a dam that's crumbling, you know,

I think that you can't, you know, the probably the states coming in saying, Hey, we need

to fix this or get it out of the way.

That's right.

And the bottom line is they were set up for mills, you know, backbrain and saw mills and

all that.

And there is none of that anymore.

That's cool.

Who is the one?

Who is the group?

Because this is really awesome.

I mean, what it sounds like is that there's an opportunity to come in there and fix a lot

of these passage, remove them and get maybe some brook trout might, you know, potentially,

you know, getting out and go into the ocean again.

Is that true?

There is.

A sea tuck is one of the big organizations.

So on the Nestle Quack River, there was a huge park called Blidenberg.

And in that park was Stumpon and that was the dam that was ahead of the trout stream.

And it was, it was blocking the passage and that blew out in the storm.

We had a big storm two years ago and it just blew it out to blow out the dam.

And a lot of people were upset because it was a pretty popular park, boating and canoeing

and stuff and warm water fishery.

But, and I had that feeling because I loved the fish it, you know, but I listened to

a presentation from this organization, first of all, it's going to cost $10 million.

So repair the dam.

To fit because you have to have a fish passage in it now.

Oh, yes.

And they don't work that great, you know.

So there are, there are giving this for $3 million.

We can build a beautiful park with observation decks and they're already starting to see more

birds in the area.

Yeah.

Or insect.

There are native trout in the tributaries that are starting to filter into this river.

Amazing.

So I'm like, you know, first of all, I'm being selfish.

I will never be able to, I'm not young and I'm never able to.

Yeah, you'll never see it.

Not ever see the benefits of these projects, but, you know, the people after you will, right?

People that are still.

I'm at this point and like the dam's blown out so big and this is not the first one that's

blown out.

No, there's probably, there's probably hundreds out there.

Oh, we got hundreds of dams.

Every town has a park, they're all parks.

Wow.

And what was that group?

You mentioned, was it, was it C-tuck?

What was the conservation group out there?

You mentioned.

There's Stroudon limited.

There's actually two chapters on Long Island, the East and the West.

And there again, Tom is in one chapter and Mike Barger was in another chapter.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, that's Tom and so Tom and going in Mike Barger, we had him on the podcast.

We did a cool episode.

So we put a link in the show notes to that one.

So there, yeah, they're out there in your area in the same area.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

They're out there.

And my, my feeling is these dams hold no purpose.

And it's tonight.

It's just not about trout, by the way.

It's just, we have a problem with herring, you know, herring in our wives.

They need places to spawn and they feed all the soul for the fish.

So, you know, you want these places, these nurseries opened up.

They do have some, some of the repons do have fish passages and they do get a few fish

going through.

But they're not really as productive as they would hope.

And it's funny as Long Island has a tremendous amount.

Now Connecticut has the same problem with ponds, you know, dams and these milk ponds,

but they're removing them.

They really are very, we haven't removed one dam on lowly islands voluntarily.

They all blown out.

Oh, right.

Gotcha.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's it.

So there's a lot of opportunity out there.

It sounds like the species wisers trout, but maybe talk about that.

Let's go back high level of Long Island.

Again, we're sticking on Long Island here.

Now, what are the other opportunities and talk to everything when people come to you and

they call you, maybe they're coming to New York for, you know, JFK for some event and

they want to hit fly fishing.

What are most people going for?

They come out here.

If they got a couple days because it is a big resort area on the east end, the water is

the king.

I mean, I do have people that come in and they say, well, it's something there for a

convention.

I like to have a day out.

I like to either do trout fishing.

So what is really difficult because it's all about tides, wind, variables.

Why trout fishing, I could take out anything.

I mean, I'm guiding even in the winter, you know, and spring creeks never freeze.

Right.

And that's the other good thing.

Yeah.

So these spring creeks, if you get a good day in January, I know there's a cold snap

over there.

I think there was.

But if you get a nice, right, was that done?

Is the cold snap over?

No.

No.

No.

How cool is it?

It's kind of we're talking mid-January right now.

How cool is it?

This is the biggest snow storm last yesterday that we've had in like 10 years.

No kidding.

How big?

Normally, you hope for a couple of days of warm weather, but it's supposed to be cold

for the next 10 days.

So it's the ice and how many, how much snow, how many inches of snow did you get?

Where I am.

We got about 12 inches.

So that actually is protected because of the ocean, you know, the ocean, if it's coming

off the ocean, it's warmer, the water's warmer than the air and it keeps the trip, the

totals down.

The North Shore, which is still in 23 miles away, they got a lot more.

They got up to two feet.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, you're right on the south shore of Long Island.

So you get black.

You get a little bit more of the marine air on the north side.

They can get that cold stuff that gets stuck in.

Right.

Yeah.

And it's really a tomb.

I mean, the topography of Long Island is different, you know, because during the

ice age, the glaciers ended right at the center of the island.

So what happens is when it was melting, we're the wash out.

We have no hills.

It's all sandy soil.

It's just a very fine soil and the beaches, of course, were all on the North, were all

the rocks.

So that's where the, you know, they ended and that's all hilly up there.

Oh, which one has better saltwater fishing, the north is south side of it.

Oh, that's a fight.

Is it?

Yeah.

Are you do you have the same?

Is it the species wise?

Is it the same species?

Well, we do, but we have, you know, slightly different times a year, but I'm down here

where we have big, huge marshes, right, on where I am.

So which I like, because you get into these little drains and get back there and you

get sight fish.

And is this, is this strippers mostly?

Well, the species that I fish for is strippers, bluefish, bonita, albacore, even fluke, summer

flounders, you know, summer flounders or fluke, we call them.

And that's where our waters on the south shore, the bays are fairly shallow, why on the

north shore, they're deep, they're rocky and deep.

So you'll look at more for structure up there.

And down here, you'll look at more for drains and, you know, salt ponds.

And we do have some excellent, excellent sight fishing here on Vogue Island for strippers.

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When is the best time to hit strippers out there on Long Island?

Well, we'll start seeing them in mid March on up and they worked from the west to the east.

So in the west, we will have the strippers two weeks before they get them out of Montauk

and they come because they're coming up through the Chesapeake, they're coming out of the

Hudson.

Right, right, right, gotcha, wow, okay, so that's all that.

It sounds like you said if people were coming in there just for a day trip or a business

trip, that trout would be the easiest thing to hit there and they could probably get some

spring creek fishing.

It sounds like throughout the year.

Yeah, I was there out there last Monday.

In a Monday, I actually fish more on Mondays.

So there's several fly fishing clubs and the parks are closed on Mondays, but they rent

out the park on Mondays.

So that's quite it, like I said, there's quite a few, well, we have several fly fishing

clubs.

You know, it's kind of between us and the surf guys, surf fishing guys.

Oh, okay.

What is the, what is spring creek fishing?

What does that like?

It sounds like we talked about the rod, you know, seven and a half foot, four weight.

Do you guys get hatches and all the full things throughout the year?

So they, you know, we're populated area.

So we do have hatches here.

We are in Lone Island and the Carmen side's the best hatches because it's a little more

wild.

It's quite a bit wild.

They do have very good hatches.

They get the basics, they get your Hendrix and you get your sofas, but it's the brown

drakes that we get that are just, you know, massive ten inches, you know, see, nice little

brookies gobbling down these big brown drakes and they, you know, it's just a lot of fun.

And then, of course, you have terrestrials.

Yeah.

When did the, you have the shop now, the only dedicated fly shop in Lone Island, when did

that idea for the River Bay outfitters, when did that all come to be?

I've been since the 80s, you know, really into it.

And I, of course, you drive in course country, you always stop at a shop, you know, I always

like that.

I actually was at the time, it was actually in 2012, we had super storm Sandy hit, which

I was a manager of a restaurant that got devastated.

We had, you know, water inside the restaurant, destroyed the restaurant for about, you know,

it had to be seven months, nine months before we could open again.

And I was actually at the time looking, you know, to do something.

And the state offered me the opportunity to start a business and you still could collect

unemployment.

That was, oh, wow.

We were, I mean, everybody was unemployed, everything factories, everything was shut down

because it was, and where were you, where were you then, what part of the state?

I was in the same, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a file's from where I am now, you know.

We were on a barrier island, actually, is what happened.

The restaurant was on a barrier island.

The water just, and it was super, it was first of all, moon tide, and then the storm hit

exactly at a moon, the highest tide of the year, time, and it just pushed it right in.

All the way up and down the hill, east coast, but New Jersey and Long Island got hit

the hardest.

So what happened was I actually got a job working for Orvis with they had a store on Orvis

and they knew them because I used to teach over there, one-on-one classes and their fly

time classes on weekends, I used to do that.

So they offered me a job in their new store that was opening up.

But as everybody knows about those company stores, they're really focused on clothing.

I heard for the fishing department, but I spent more time folding clothes in the

clothing store.

Really?

So that, now I haven't been into a lot of Orvis stores, but is that the case in most

Orvis stores?

Is clothing is a big part?

Yeah.

A corporation.

Or it's corporation.

Oh, the corporation got you.

There are dealer stores too.

And I get it because you look at all the brands out there, all the outdoor brands, they're

all, you know.

Yeah, same thing.

Right, tons.

Yeah, R.A.I.

Is mostly clothes if you look at it probably.

All that being, for me, all of being was always the outdoors camp, I don't know, that's

nothing.

But you go to their stores.

That's all in a little corner somewhere and everything else is just outdoor clothes.

So I get it.

That's where the money is.

And Orvis is a fairly big corporation and they don't get me wrong.

They were great to me.

You know, they were right.

But I just didn't want full clothes.

So in a very small space, 400 square feet, I opened the first fly shop.

And then I had that for about three years before I moved over to the location.

I'm now around about 14, 90 square feet.

There you go.

And what does it look like in your shop if you're somebody was, you got a lot, everything

fly, lots of flight materials, all that.

Oh, yeah.

It's just like, you know, fly rods here, but it's a, it's, it's a one person store, which,

and so I do close down two days a week because I do guide and I do like the fish.

There you go.

As you can see, that's something we've heard a lot about fly shop owners that they get

into it for because they love fishing, but they find themselves getting stuck

behind the counter and not getting out.

Sounds like you got a plan to stay outside.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I'll, I'll for go back and make to go fish.

And I'm very fortunate.

Listen, I'm very fortunate for so I like saw what I like at all.

By the way, I like all fishing.

And we have a really a lot of diversity here on Logan.

In fact, I consider Logan Island and this area of fly fisherman's paradise for the amount

of species that we do have within a day dry.

Right.

Now, talk about that.

What are those?

Let's run through that list.

Okay.

So you have, you have your sole water species and Logan, like I said, it has over a thousand

miles of shoreline.

And then you have your warm water species besides the track, every town has ponds, every

pond has fish in it.

It could be bass.

It could be sunny.

It could be pickerel.

Pickerel is very, I like fishing for pickerel.

Every pond has carp and we're talking big fish.

And I love fishing for them because they're not easy.

But I do, I do like, you know, I like to say fish for everything.

I have kayaks and canoes and I have float belly boats and I have all the toys.

I have rafts.

And we have a one really nice system called the Poconic River and it's basically, it's

all warm water fishing.

It's all, don't try out, but it's all warm water fishing.

But you're out there and you're away from everything.

You know, even though there's towns all around, you feel like you're out in a little nowhere.

How do you spell that river?

P-E-C-O-N-I-C-K.

Gotcha.

Okay.

And there again, it's a series of dams.

So these shallow ponds, they were all for

cranberries, you know, cranberry bogs.

And they're just great bass, which, large about the small mouth, well, we do have some small

mouth, not a lot.

But they're not native to this area, you know, I don't, I don't even know if pickrore

are.

Right.

I have a lot of pickrore and we do have some fish and, you know, I think the sunfish

is the most underrated fish there is on a flight run.

If that fish was on one pond, on one mountain, people would pay thousands

to go fish for it, you know.

Yeah, yeah, sunfish for awesome.

Well, pickrore, we haven't talked a lot about them.

What is the pickrore?

Maybe describe that.

What is the fish that it's most similar to, if you had to say?

Yeah, I have a family and you got pickrore, pike, and musculine, and oh, wow.

You have chain pickrore, which is the largest of the pickrore family, but you also have red

fin, which is such much smaller, about eight inches.

But a chain pickrore will get up to close to three feet, and they can, and they're very

ferocious.

They are just full of teeth, you know, and I love fish for pickrore and I also like fishing

for pike.

We don't have any pike here on low island, but not too far away from low island we do.

Yeah, yeah.

So pickrore are kind of, yeah, they're in the same family.

It sounds like his pike and musculine.

What?

Describe that is pickrore.

How are you fly fishing for them out there?

Though we just about anything that you get their mouth on, it's all about the strike.

They're site predators, they're ambush predators, they're not, they don't cruise or anything

like they sit and wait and, and they're in shallow ponds and the, our ponds are not

clear because they're, you know, we're very tannic out here.

So you look for the weeds and all of a sudden you'll, you'll strip alongside or a low

pond just on the edges and once when you see the, the, the, uh, the weeds part, you know,

big rush of water just comes out, just the wake and they will shit and you don't stop

it.

You've got to keep that thing moving.

Stripping it fast.

It's a great hit and everything and after a couple of runs, they, they pitter out very

fast.

Yeah, they pitter out.

They're, they're a little bit smaller than pike, right?

Oh, quite a bit smaller.

Yeah, but they look exactly, they look very similar.

It's the same.

But the whole shape is the same, but the body kind of why they chain pick or have like

a chain pattern on their body, yellow and black chain, why the pike have spots and the

uschalon, which have bars like a, a vertical bars on, wow, this is great.

Yeah, pick right.

No, we, we've heard about them, but we haven't talked about what is like time wise, wouldn't

be a good time to fish for them out there.

Actually, if people fish through the ice for them too, I mean, they are protected in

the sense that you're, they spawn in March and April.

So they're protected from the season's closed March to April.

I think it's opens up on the second, second Saturday of May.

So it opens up.

The waters getting things again.

Are they in ponds?

Mostly.

Mostly slower movement or back if you're on, well, back waters, they're again, you won't

find them on our spring creeks as they're cold.

And they're basically back waters, sluice of your own major river, like the Hussainagas

pike and pickerel and you look loose, they slow our waters on that river, you know.

But just to let the people know, we have several types, we have two types of ponds here on

Long Island that have fish on the south shore, mostly you got the mill ponds, those are

the dams, they dam, they're shallow, they, who put trout in it, but it's a put and take.

And then I'm ever going to survive past June.

They put it in the early spring and in late fall so that people can fish for a more winter.

But raiding the center onto the north shore, we have what we call kettle ponds.

And kettle ponds have no inflow or off low.

They were remnants of the ice age and they live on groundwater.

And they're deep.

They're like cavities.

And some of them like Lake Rancarca's 50 feet deep.

So it's fairly good.

And some of these will hold trout all year.

And then you have the warm water species along the edges.

So you have pickerel and both in the north end of the south side?

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

And like I said, I love fish because they're so aggressive, it's just a lot of fun to watch

them.

Yeah, sounds amazing.

I mean, it sounds like, and we're actually going up for, we're heading up north through

Saskatchewan to fish for northern pike up way up north.

But I mean, the cool thing about this is that, I mean, it's basically the same species

a little smaller and everything.

But I mean, you're catching a similar, basically fish, it's aggressive.

It's a big fight.

Exactly.

So I was fortunate.

I run trips through the shop and we ran a trip to Alaska.

And our main focus was pike.

And it's just watching how they fight, I mean, it's just incredible.

God, that's great.

What do you use them for your rod for the pickerel?

I use them either 5 or 6 white.

Yeah, so 5 or 6 white and then like, and are you using what you're set up for them?

Sinking lines, dry lines, what do you use them?

No, I use floating lines and I use, and I don't even, you could put a little bit of wire

because they do have tea.

I mean, I use a lot more flies because I don't use wire form because I don't, you know,

casting in the wire is not as fun.

So it's not, Pike, you do use wire because they'll choose right through your leader.

But pickerel, yeah, I use heavy mono and they're not leader shy, you know, so I can't,

no, no, no, I use a six foot leader and I'll put on, you know, 10, 15 pounds.

I don't test either mono or floral and I usually, they'll hit poppers and stuff, but

I really like to use, not a fast sinking fly or more of a, you know, do you ever hear

a fly call to Whistler?

A Whistler, no, I don't think so.

A Whistler is a soil water pattern from San Francisco, but it has a lot of, it moves

water and I don't tie it when I'm fishing for pickerel, I don't wait it.

I just wanted to, it just push water.

It's a great fly, I mean, I can tie him for salt, even, I even fish him for salt here.

But I'd like flashy, flashy white red, oh yeah, yeah, I see it.

Whistler kind of has a big, is that, is that just like a bucktail?

What is the, the wing, the big wing material, bucktail, but you can use a lot of different

things.

Yeah, different stuff.

But I synthetics and everything.

And it has a bead chain highs on them.

Yeah, bead chains, got the old school bead chains, it's got like a flash of, yeah, red

or something up front.

So it's imitating just some sort of a baitfish, right?

Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's funny is, it whistles because the bead chain, when you

can, oh, it whistles right, yeah, that's where the name came from.

And it was made to fish deep, you know, so it's safe for Cisco, they're fishing very deep

for strippers.

So they'll fish down with sinking lines, but I, where parts are, you know, if I put a

sinking line in the pond, I'm pulling up garbage, you know, right, gotcha.

This is fun.

Yeah, so you got the set up pretty straightforward and does it, is it pretty easy?

You always go back to the musky versus pike because, you know, muskier really hard to catch

is, is it as easy to catch a, you know, one of these pickroas, say, catch a Northern pike?

Even easier, easy, easier.

They're just, we call them the water wolves, so they're just, they're just easy to catch.

Pike, if you could see a pike and you put it, you wouldn't know him enough, he's got

to chase it.

Muskies are a little more, they'll fall up the right up to the boat.

That is awesome.

Yeah, I feel like, yeah, you guys, like you said, I think a long island, people probably

hear long island if they're not from there and they're like, well, yeah, the city and

all the stuff.

But man, it actually sounds like you got a lot of natural areas out there and probably

more coming.

Well, yes, we do.

We have a lot of options.

And like I said, and, you know, the New York City lives on their water supplies, the

rural surface water, the long island, there's all well water, you know, the New York City.

So in Westchester, just, you know, yeah, 45 minutes up to an hour and a half, of course,

it's all about the traffic.

Oh, yeah.

Perfect.

There's a series called the, uh, quote, and water shed, which is a series of reservoirs.

But in, in between its reservoir, there is a small stream, a damn stream.

They're all bottom release dams.

So they're cool, all summer long and they're all got trout in them.

And some of them are wild trout, not native, you know, there's one that, wild browns,

but they're, they don't have any natives.

That holds that, like I said, that's a, you know, a man-made system, but that's, that's

an option.

And then Connecticut just has a really great stream, rivers.

Yeah, the Hussotonic, right, is one of the big ones that we've heard about there.

Big one.

That one actually runs all the way from Massachusetts, from middle of Massachusetts, from Pittsfield,

all the way down to the sound.

And there is a series of reservoirs or dams on them, where I fish, it's a marginal, marginal

trout stream.

The fishing for trout more are spring to about the middle of June, and then again, in

the fall for trout, because it just gets to one.

And it does have springs and tributaries, and the trout will get into the springs that

are bubbling up, and they will go into the tributaries.

And the Connecticut really has a good program, they, they, you can't fish for them in these

tributaries.

They, they shut it down for spawning, for spawning, well, for just to keep the time.

Because they get it, the river will get up to into the low 80s, they get some pretty

warm, where I fish, but that's when I like to fish, and that's for the smallmouth.

It is, I could have, so I do this smallmouth in a lot of rivers, and they're not native

to this area, they're, they're from the Ohio River drainage, I don't know how they got

in there, but they're all over the place.

So I actually fished the Delaware, has a pretty good supply of smallmouth, it's about

the Delaware, you, you've drifted, and you look for rock piles, right?

And then you fish and fish and you catch and punch, then you move on to the next rock

pile, right?

Why, Connecticut, I don't know, who's the tonic?

It's all rock, it's all boulders, you know, it, it reminds me, I don't know if you, there's

a river up in the Adirondix called the Asabo, or, you know, or there's a, you know, rapid

river in Maine, the, it's just fast, pockety water, and you look for these deep pools,

and they, they, splatts between the boulders, and every, you can have 50 fish days, I mean,

it's crazy, and, you know, some of them are big, they will put a bend into a five or

a six weight rod, and in fact, I like a six or a seven weight rod, and some, you know,

10 inches, but every once in a while, you'll get one, that's about 18 inches, and, you

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So you basically spent some time heading up north when you're not fishing Long Island.

So, one of the things I do for my store, my shop is a community.

I have extremely loyal customers, they come in all the time, you know, when I first started

the store, I went to 150 miles radius to go to every fly shop in that radius to see

it operated, right, I wanted a certain feel, right, where people come in and don't feel

like, you know, even I can spend money, you know.

Ralph, you don't want to get that thing where it's like uppity, where you have to, you

know, buy a $1,000 rod to be okay.

I am a gentleman that comes in, you know, he's living on Social Security, he's way up

there.

You know, he comes in here and I always say, I have coffee, you know, I have a correct

machine, you know, have a cup of coffee and then he'll, you know, he might buy a raw thread

or go into the wild and it's a losing proposition, you know what I mean.

Yeah, but he'll come in, he'll come in, boy, just come in and sit and look around and just chat.

Everybody he sees, he's always handing out my cards.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, I feel like the fly shop, you know, is why it's so amazing,

you know, for that reason, you know what I mean, it's not only do you get the expertise

like we're doing here and learning about the areas and the fishing, but you get that group,

but you know, that community, you know, that place where you can go and you know that, you know,

what I mean, it's just a place to hang out.

So we do right now in the winter time, besides I do fly tying lessons, I do in store,

where I have two days a week where of the same 10 people come in, but I also do Zoom at night,

fly tying classes.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, so that worked out pretty good.

I'll have like 15 people, 20 people at night.

Yeah, how do you do the Zoom thing?

So you just do a, is this, how often do you do that?

I do it twice a week for 10 weeks.

Yeah, so twice a week for 10 weeks, okay.

Right, and there was a fee to it, not a retaker.

I know, I'm not my whole thing, it's like my day trips, I run up to the whosatonic,

they're $35, I mean, I go up to 40, but that's, I supply lunch.

Oh, wow, so you can get a trip to the whosatonic for $40.

Yeah, and we all go up there, and I don't have 15, 20 people with me.

That, I mean, that sounds like an amazing deal.

Yeah, $35, $40 to go up and fish or everything.

I try to run my trips reasonably priced, because, first of all, I'm a real,

I'm a, I have a lot of trades people, a blue collar.

I'm a blue collar shop.

And we've been a lot of them have families and kids, you know, I,

I don't run these high-end, I mean, I do go to Montana.

I run a trip to, and I do run a trip to Alaska, and I'm doing,

I'm running a trip to Maine, but I try to find places where it doesn't break the bank.

And, you know, I'm not, I'm not high-end, okay.

I don't want to have the cocktail out or anything like that.

I, I just want to warm bed and fishing.

So that's, that's where my guys are front, you know.

That's cool. You're finding some of those trips that are not too,

you know, not super high, high expensive, you know.

And I think, if I always think of, because I've been reading,

we've got a couple of big things going.

I have been reading this book about Lee Wolf,

but also we're heading up to Newfoundland to fish for Atlantic Sam

and kind of my first time doing it.

And that's not far from you, right?

I mean, you've got that stuff, which kind of,

some of those trips can be spendy, right?

Have you, have you touched on any of that?

I looked into the live, you know,

you're looking there up there with that Alaska trips.

I read a trip and to Alaska.

And the reason why I picked it was because it was very reasonable.

And it's what I want.

The cabins in the middle of the woods, you know,

it's cool. Alaska adventures with Dan Paul.

I had an incredible time.

I mean, you know, all the meals were included.

And he had a good price and it ran about with airfare

and staying in an anchorage for two days.

And, you know, ran less than $8,000.

Yeah, and was it, this was a full, like a week trip?

Six and a half days.

Six and a half, yeah, like a full week.

And then what part of Alaska was this in?

I, you know what?

I loved the time.

But way, sleep mute was the nearest town.

Sleep mute.

Yeah, sleep mute was the name of the town.

And it's in the middle of, we had our take out,

we took Piper Cubs, we threw in three people at a time,

two hours in, landed on a man-made airstrip.

Like, it was, it was incredible.

Oh, yeah, you are, I see it.

Yeah, you're, you are in the middle of Alaska.

You're not near any, any towns, and you got a big river

going right through, which is the,

Holodic, Dictor, something like that.

Oh, are you on the Cusco?

Oh, yeah, so I fished that.

Yeah, the Cusco quim river.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we fished the, the quid.

Yeah, so you're way up there.

Yeah, okay, this is awesome.

I love it, okay.

And we were there when the water was high,

so we went into the Oxbow Lakes for a pike,

and you could site fish for them, you know?

And then we had, we had Shum Saminson

and accidentally caught some kings

because you can't target the kings.

We had Shea Fitch, which was a lot of fun.

Oh, that's cool.

Right, but you know, it's like,

they had a, he had a chef there that was, you know,

the guy that's been doing this for years.

You know, he made great meals,

but we ate like moose, what they,

yeah, you ate moose.

Yeah, you know, moose bacon, moose ribs, you know?

Moose meatloaf.

God, this is great.

Well, I think that's the cool thing about the, you know,

again, fly fishing, the travel.

You guys pick the place, you know,

you got all this cool stuff out near where you are,

but also, you know, people are heading out.

I mean, why not go to the middle of Alaska and experience?

I do have a very active newsletter.

All right, put out a newsletter.

Yeah, how would we, how would we sign up to that newsletter?

What, where would we go to do that?

Oh, right on the front page of my website,

riverbayoffitist.com, and there's a, there's a form.

You can just, just fill it out.

Okay, and what do you cover?

What's the newsletter typically cover?

It's, so I think, for instance,

the last one went out was about winter fishing, you know,

what to do where, you know, on our pool articles,

I pulled podcasts, I pulled urine podcasts with,

we talked about the cat skills with Mike McCoy,

though I pulled that and I, I, I themed it.

So the next one will probably, I'm not sure,

but maybe how to take care of your gear,

because nobody's fishing fly fishing this week, you know?

No, no, this week, yeah, not for a while, right?

Until how long is that cold snap going to be there?

They took a 10 to 15 days.

Oh, wow, this is a big one.

Oh, it's, it's a long, long cold snap.

It's not going to get out of the 20s,

and most days it's going to be in the teens.

So, oh, just going to sit here, yeah.

Yeah, I got you. Cool.

Well, I guess you have plenty of time to get behind the vise,

right, and do some tie in there in the shop.

Well, I do that.

I think, what amazes me is, so I'm a fly shop, right?

And I'm the only shop along here.

Like I said, there were some people

who have fly fishing equipment.

Hey, they don't fly fish.

I know those people, and they don't really fly fish.

And I'm like, why don't you just sell shoes then, you know?

Right, why sell the fly gear, yeah.

I don't get it.

And then I really hated when people buy by price, you know,

because I could fit any budget.

And there is no ad equipment today, you know?

I can fit any budget.

I had a gentleman, and it was not,

and then expense of Roddy bought it.

And I'm like, this is not the Rod you want.

And he goes, well, it was good price.

But it's not the Rod that you want.

That's where fly shops really come into effect, you know?

This is where we're so important for the learning aspect.

There is a learning curve.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

No, you're right.

I think there's nothing better than picking up a Rod

from a shop and casting in the backyard, right?

Or getting out there, getting a feel for it.

Well, I think we can, Paul, take it out of here.

We got our segment.

We love this segment.

Our list shout out segment today.

And today is presented by Patagonia,

Swift Current Waders.

So we're giving a big shout out to Patagonia today.

This big list shout out goes to Greg Fairbend.

So Greg is actually the first person

who gave us a shout out about your shop.

And obviously we'd heard about you before.

They want to give a big shout to Greg Fairbend

for letting me know that he loves your shop.

He's definitely one of your guys in there.

And also Patagonia Swift Current Waders,

our sponsor for this segment of the podcast.

So as we get into this, tell me one thing.

We mentioned some history.

I mentioned Lee Wolf.

What do you guys got going there as far as like gear?

I'm a big gear guy.

What's your best-selling product you think

that goes out other than fly rods and all that stuff?

Do you guys have any of the outerwear and all that stuff?

I do have waiters, you know?

I have that waiting booth.

I have very, very limited end closets.

It's branding close, you know?

It's as bi-logo on it.

Right.

So you are the opposite of what you're talking about.

You're not the shop that has all the clothes.

You have the fly fishing gear.

What is amazing is, and I'm debating,

because the Orvis is going through a strange period.

I know, we've heard about that.

They've been like 100 stores,

a bunch of stores close around the country.

That over 30 stores or something.

And they laid off like 150 people.

That's right, 100 people, right?

Yeah, and they, you know, and I feel bad

because I know the guys.

And, but when I first opened my store,

I was literally, I'm about 15 miles from a corporate store, right?

And, but the Orvis asked me if I would become a dealer.

And I'm like, if I become the Norvis dealer,

because if somebody wants a Norvis rut,

they won't go to the Orvis store

because they're not known for that, come to me.

And I don't, didn't want to do that to them.

I didn't want to take their business.

So, you know, being an effect to them.

But I haven't become a Norvis dealer.

And since the store closed,

it's always been a back on the mind thinking about it.

Because it is a well-branded brand.

Right. Yeah.

What is the benefit of, obviously, Orvis is a great brand.

They've got doing great stuff for conservation.

What is the benefit of them, obviously,

is getting the name there?

What's the, yeah, I guess you'd be stuck

with one kind of brand, mainly.

No, you can have other brands.

If you're a dealer, you know, you can an independent shop.

I could have other brands in the store.

And I would have other brands.

You know, when I was starting,

you needed a really good ride.

I mean, there were a lot of crap out there.

You know, and if you didn't spend a couple hundred dollars

on a ride, you got crap.

Today, there are rides out there.

I, you know, I can sell, you know,

I have different brands.

So, like, you know, small brands

that are, you know, really reasonably priced.

There are excellent casting rods.

So, the thing is about the, you know,

I'm a far banks dealer.

So, I have sage of eggs in.

But they, you know, they were high in.

They're not inexpensive rides.

Even they're 500 dollars.

So, that's the hardest sell.

The only, the big thing is somebody says,

I want an American mate.

Well, you don't have that many options.

You know, yeah, that's the one thing.

Nice.

Well, I think this has been good.

I guess we'll take it out here a couple of tips.

And I always, I think today we've talked about

a little bit of everything.

But maybe let's go back to what we said with the Brooktrout.

We talked about the Brookies.

If you're going out to one of those small spring creeks,

somebody's going out there maybe on their own.

What are a couple of tips you're giving them

to have more success on like those Brooktrout out there?

So, there's several rivers that do have Brooktrout in them

that are what, Adaf?

The Carmage is the most famous one.

It's a county park and there is a daily fee of $4.

But you can pick it up in the morning

and fish right to dark.

And I do, I pick up a season, I pay $38 for that park.

And I'll go out there in the evening

and just fish the evening.

I like the evening.

The crowds are down, but you gotta be careful

because you can get lost very easily in there.

And so you have to know it.

But my advice is, you know,

I'm also, you know, Connecticut,

relatively close to my shop.

There's several streams there that are native Brooktrout.

So there's options around.

You're also, and I've never really done any fishing

in New Jersey, but, you know,

an hour and a half for my shop, you got New Jersey.

So, you know, I always say that it's a paradise

because I can catch saltwater, fresh water,

warm water, and if I really wanted

to catch Pacific salmon, I'm five hours away.

Yeah, you could go over to, you head over the Great Lakes.

That's the thing.

You are in Pennsylvania.

You got the Great Lakes.

You got, I mean, pretty much if you think about it,

yeah, you guys kind of have everything.

The only thing you have,

you have to deal with occasionally is the weather, right?

The cold weather.

Yeah, I mean, especially upstate,

they get the lake effect snows.

And they have like three feet of snow right now in Syracuse.

And they'll have it all went along.

There's a lot of good things to be in my type of area.

First of all, I can always get a quarter milk,

no matter the time of day,

and I can order a piece of pizza at 11 o'clock at night.

So, oh, you can't.

Yeah, you are.

That's the thing about, too, where you are.

You are in a cool place long on.

And you are, I mean, right there in the middle of it, too.

You know, you have these, that's what's crazy.

You have these cool little spring creek.

It sounds like pretty remote.

But then right there, you're New York City, right?

Down time, how far away is that from you?

By train, I'm 30 minutes away from downtown Manhattan.

There you go.

Yep, downtown.

So, you're right in the middle of it, and you can get.

So, I think it's kind of cool because I think,

being able to get a piece of pizza at 11 o'clock at night

or whatever, you know, what is it?

They say that never sleeps, right?

They do that never sleeps.

And I'm on the suburbs, but we do have places to stay open,

pretty late.

Like I said, you can do anything.

And I could literally, I opened my store at 10 o'clock.

I'll get up early in the morning and go fish

for a couple hours for salt water and then go work or go home.

Or I'll hit a pond for a cart, you know.

So, I do fish a lot.

And the biggest thing is, I'm very fortunate, you know,

my family's very supportive.

And my wife is extremely supportive.

And let's me do these things, you know?

That's right.

What's your plan long-term?

I know this is probably a little ways out

for what the fly shop do.

Would you like to see this thing continue to keep going?

Or because a few shops have been going away

over the years, right?

Yeah, so the thing is about shops

during the river runs through back 90s.

We had over seven shops all along out.

Oh, wow.

And the thing is, they, and they all did money.

But as soon as the money started,

people started what, you know,

Target Woods came along and then golf courses

became popular, you know?

Oh, right.

They just folded up, they weren't doing it.

I work extremely hard at keeping people interested.

I do, I do a, for a magazine,

a video fishing report every week.

And I do, I've been fishing report

on my Instagram every week.

And I also do the classes and the trips.

And, you know, you got to work it.

Hence, my shop is not the cleanest, you know?

Right, you're working hard.

You're the, it's like the real estate, right?

They say they need to be a real estate agent, you know,

in the good times of the market.

But it's when it goes down, who's left, right?

Right, and that's what happened.

All the shops closed down.

And you have to understand, nobody gets rich in this.

You know, nobody's getting rich.

And I do it, you know, I'm in my 70s.

So I'm, you know, I kind of retired almost.

Yeah, right, right, right.

Well, you got plenty of time left.

I've, I've had a number of 95 year old anglers

on the podcast and it's pretty amazing.

A lot of them have been super,

still out there going strong.

So I feel like we're probably in the right field

for staying healthy, you know what I mean?

I'd like to be active.

I can't retire, you know, even if I close the store,

I have to do something.

I still guide.

I'm thinking about getting my captain's license.

So, oh, wow, do that, you know, and, you know,

I'd go in and be in before the shop.

I taught all the flight, all the travel limits,

flight time classes.

And I'm a certified casting instructor.

I do the fly casting and present.

I do presentations.

I do sometimes zoom presentations.

You know, I just put it out there in the new,

hey, come on, this is the zoom, come on in, it's free.

Yeah, what do you guys do when you do your presentations?

Do you focus on like kind of a little bit of everything?

Nots, tying, like what does a typical presentation?

Everything is different, you know, every presentation,

I have, I have like 20 of them in the can.

Wow.

Oh, I talked about Montana,

because I go to Montana quite a bit, you know,

I did, I tripped to the Bob Marsh Wilderness area

where you had to run in 30 miles.

So that was, I was pretty beat up.

The river of no return, right?

In the middle fork?

I actually fished the South Fork of the flathead.

For native, native cutthroat and bulltrap.

That was a six day fishing adventure.

That's cool.

You had a day in each end riding in and out.

And every day you rode.

I mean, I was pretty beat up.

You mean road a horse?

I rode a horse, you can't.

The only way to get into the Bob Marsh Wilderness area

is by footer stock.

By footer, or if you can get the boat, right?

The river, the middle fork trip, the boat down to the middle for it.

There are people that put in that one end and float through it.

But there's no machinery allowed.

You can't have a chainsaw.

You can't have a bicycle.

It's a wilderness area.

Yeah, it's a largest.

It's the, you mentioned Alaska,

but the wilderness, the Bob Marsh, or that area is like two million acres.

It's the largest wilderness area in the lower 48, I think.

In fact, to tell the wilderness areas, it is incredible.

Spectacular.

Yeah, it was that, you know, these trips are what, you know,

that's my vacation.

My wife likes her vacation.

She goes on cruises and it's places.

I prefer this as it.

I'm fishing hard.

That's cool.

What is the, you mentioned, so you got the, the travel.

If people wanted to watch some of those zoom,

is that something they can watch or get involved in those?

Yeah, go on the newsletter and I put up, you know,

and I, I'll put it in the newsletter.

I'm have doing a zoom this night and or something like that and.

Yeah, when's your next,

so just think just get the newsletter and they'll get updated

when you do your next zoom.

And it's like, you know, well, I'll do a newsletter.

I'll do a zoom this week or something like that.

Like I said, I do, we do a thing to keep people interested.

Fly fishing in the salt is probably the hardest.

Cause, you know, it's easy to go down on a party boat or sit

on a bucket and throw bait and, or even the surf fishing is,

is a lot easier than fly fishing in the salt.

But what I do is, and it's, excuse for me to go fishing.

We do meetups, weekly meetups.

I look at it three days before the day or whatever day I pick.

And I look for the weather.

I look for the wind, the tides, all that.

And then I say, well, meet us at this beach at five or six o'clock.

And that's how I do it.

But the only way, the only way anybody's going to know about

them is through that newsletter.

But you know, amazing, man.

This is awesome.

Go Paul, I think we can leave it there today.

We'll definitely send everybody out to riverbayoutfitters.com.

They can connect with anything there.

Folks are coming through.

They can pick your brain.

And yeah, maybe we'll get on one of these zoom calls and

watch you tie some flies here.

Well, call the shop.

I'll talk to everybody.

Okay, yeah, we'll just call you.

We'll give you a call and then we'll go from there.

Awesome, Paul.

Well, thanks for all the time today.

We'll look forward to keeping in touch with you.

Okay, thank you.

All right, before we head out here, just want to remind you

check in with Paul.

If you get a chance, let him know you heard this podcast.

And if you're going to be out in that area,

definitely check in with Paul and see if you can book a trip

or just connect with him at the fly shop.

Definitely getting late night here,

but I wanted to just remind you that the bootcamp

is launching this week.

In fact, tomorrow, you can go to

weftlycewing.com slash bootcamp.

And this is our bootcamp where we're launching

with some of the best speakers in the world.

We've got them all lined up for plus days of action all day long.

Sign up and you can any aspect of fly fishing.

We're going to have you covered.

So I'm excited to share this one with you this week.

Check it out right now at weftflycewing.com slash bootcamp.

All right, I'm going to get out of here.

Thanks again for checking in today.

Hope you're having a great evening,

great morning or afternoon.

And we'll see you on that next episode.

Talk to you then.

Thanks for listening to the Weftfly Swing Fly Fishing Show.

For notes and links from this episode,

visit weftflycewing.com.