A Journalist in the Deep End - Eric Herman

We can't tell if the chemistry is good by looking at it, it wasn't clear yesterday!

From the last time, the saltwater pool is a chlorine pool!

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Welcome back to Talking Pool's podcast, your go-to source for everything wet and wild and wonderfully misunderstood in the pool world.

I'm Natalie Hood, Director of Education and Network Development for The Great Game.

And today, we're busting some myths with the voice that has shaped our industry,

fakes, learns, and evolves.

We're talking communication, storytelling, and the kind of insight that really only comes from decades spent documenting the best and sometimes the worst of water shaping and aquatic design.

Joining me is Eric Herman, Vice President of Communications for Water Shape University, and has also been a writer and editor with more than 40 years of experience in his long 10-year leading water shapes magazine.

Few people have had a closer view of trends, innovations, and personalities that have defined this industry.

And so, before we dive into the evolution of water shaping, the role of education, and really the stories that have shaped your perspective, Eric, I love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit more.

So, how about you tell us your journey?

How did you get into writing, and where did you find this love for aquatics that ultimately water shaped university?

First of all, great to be with you, and hello to everybody who has logged in wherever you may be.

I have always, my entire professional wife, I've been a writer, editor, and I actually did what I went to college for.

People do, some do.

I was lucky enough to do it, and it's something I've always loved doing writing, you know, back in grade school.

I always gravitated towards English and language, and I love history, and it's a way to satisfy an insatiable, insatiable curiosity that I have about almost everything.

And so, I started in this industry, oh, I wanted to point out too, that I'm very proud of the fact that this month marks my 40, 40, 40, zero years working as a writer, editor, journalist, professional spinner of yarns.

So, my first article I ever published back in 1986 was with Orange Coast Magazine, and appropriately it was about the subject of beer, the budding micro brewery industry at that time.

And why they gave me that assignment? Well, you're in a half out of college.

You fill in the blanks, but beer was a very appropriate topic for my first article, and then I went on to do more technical stuff.

My second article was about geodesic dome homes. I did a bunch of business profiles for a local business magazine.

I got into all sorts of stuff, and then I really wanted to land a full-time gig in writing. That was my ambition, and I answered an ad in Los Angeles Times in 1989, and I went to an interview in downtown L.A.,

I'll technically career town. I met a fellow by the name of Jim McCloskey, who is a legend in the pool industry.

He was editor of pool and spawn news at the time, and he hired me as an associate editor in the fall of 89.

And my area was more technical stuff. I wrote a lot about service and water chemistry and construction, and I was around for the very beginning of the Plasters Council, and they put me on that kind of beat.

And I also covered the drowning prevention. They kind of gave that subject to the new guy because it was a bummer.

It is a very hard subject. I won't lie. I've had a few people on here, and they've top-casement governed with every child of swimmer, and I'm telling you, I had to grab my tissues.

It is a really difficult subject for the industry. And so I was there for, I don't know, six and a half, seven years.

Worked with some fabulous people. Another familiar face from that area was my dear friend, Rebecca Robledo, who's still with pool and spawn news.

And there was just a really great staff and a time when the industry was going through a lot of changes.

I left that position in 96, and Jim and I, and other people, he started a company that was not focused on the industry.

We were doing magazines for other things, other industries. But then after about three years, we decided he decided to go back at the pool industry to do a publication.

Because we felt like there was a different way to approach it from an information standpoint. And that is what led to the beginning of water-shaped magazine, which launched in 1999, February 1999, and was in print until 2011.

During that time, I was the founding editor of it, and Jim was the publisher. We started on this journey of trying to cover water as a design element from the design engineering and construction standpoint.

And what always had its roots in the pool industry, water shapes from the very beginning to this day goes far beyond that in terms of content.

We wanted to push the tent post wider to be more inclusive of landscape architecture and things like ponds and streams and mountains and water parks and hot springs and natural bodies of water.

And water is a resource and to look at it in a way that was in a lot of ways more inclusive than what you have in the standard trade publishing model.

And so that's water shapes was that then and it's that to this day. And in terms of my own personal trajectory, the magazine went out of print in the recession.

And we kind of broke up the ban. And I got hired by aqua magazine as their senior. Yeah, as a senior.

Love those guys. I worked with them as their senior editor for nine years. And I'm still very close, still published stuff with them. They picked up stuff from water shapes. We have a very close relationship.

But I'm really appreciate them. Yeah.

Lacey Davis, the CEO of the great game. I believe she writes a monthly article for aqua. And any time we have a press release, aqua is the first to one of the first magazines to publish it. I mean, they're just absolute. They're just good solid people.

But yeah, they do a great job. They really do. And you know, I want to back up a little bit. The water shapes thing. One of the big features of it was that it was really integral and work hand and glove with the early Genesis three program.

And we were the first publication to really promote what they were doing. They came from outside the established educational organs of the pool industry. And we're trying to do something new. And we knew those guys from before, from our pool and spa news days. And so we teamed up and for gosh, forever, the publication.

It was, you know, we were promoting what they were doing using a lot of their instructors and students as writers and contributors. And that went along for a long, long time. And we were really proud to be a part of that movement.

Well, you know, business things change. And basically, when water shape university happened, that was Dave Peterson and Bill Drakely, who had been, we have been working with her 20 years at that point started.

They're fun guys. And they're, they're, they're not what knowledge in the industry.

Well, you know, they were primary instructors and architects of the education within Genesis for a long time. And, you know, they have their own story, but they broke off left Genesis and decided to start water shape university in 2019.

And at that time, they wanted to acquire water shapes, the publication, which had continued as an online vehicle from after one out of print, Jim kept it going.

And so long story short, they hired me to take over as editor of the publication as an online thing back in 2020 right when the pandemic shut down.

And remember that I had just had my first baby. It was, yeah, what a crazy time that was. So I've been back at the helm of water shapes as the editor since that time and have continued on, you know, as part of water shape university.

And I participate with water shape university and other communication capacities, but my primary job by far is doing this online publication, water shapes, that comes out twice a month. And that, that's the story there. And so, um, so it started way back in 89 and boy, you talk about the development, the evolution, you know, the changes.

If you compare the industry then to now, it's, it's a completely different animal in a lot of night and day.

Right rolling fine, but I'm tuning in. Yeah, now is on the line. Guess at the ready stories that shine from filters to heaters. They tell it in time.

Hey pool talkers and myth busters, Rudy stancoots here. I don't usually crash Natalie's episodes, but today calls for a brief interruption.

First today's guest Eric Herman deserves a moment of recognition, whether he knows it or not, Eric has had a profound influence on me personally.

His work helped shape my own desire to write within this industry, a path that ultimately led me to my column in aqua magazine.

For many of us who care about the craft, the history and the storytelling of water, Eric is voice has been part of the foundation.

If you're not familiar with him yet, pay attention. You're listening to one of the true historians of our field.

Second and just as important, this episode marks a milestone for the talking pools podcast our one thousandth episode.

It's hard to imagine a more fitting combination than Natalie Hood at the microphone and Eric Herman across the conversation curiosity, history, education and a willingness to challenge the myths we've all inherited.

That's exactly what this podcast set out to do. So Natalie, Eric, congratulations and to everyone listening, thank you for being part of the first thousand. Let's keep going.

If you compare the industry then to now, it's it's a completely different.

Yeah, night and day and I, you know, when you're talking about some of your interests, you mentioned that you, you know, you really enjoy history.

Believe it or not, I absolutely am such a history junkie. I love history. That was my favorite subject in school. And when I was in college, you know, when you're generally when someone goes to college that they hope to kind of finish at that college.

But when you're marrying the military, you tend to move around quite a bit. And so I actually enjoyed it, but I had to take my history class probably four or five different times.

But it was really cool because I got to learn with the different history based on that state and where I was located. But, you know, your group, you really been able in these 40 years, been able to see the history and the evolution of swimming pools, aquatics, construction, you know, renovation, design, building.

And so I, you know, I thought that was so cool. And you and I shoot, we were working together for a while and didn't even really know what you and I first met what was at the education vacation, water shapes and last last December.

Back into surprise that we had been in, you know, the same universe and really had never known each other before. I've done a lot of work on the stuff that the National swimming pool foundation did.

And, you know, some of the legendary names that were involved in some of the earlier studies that NSPF did, you know, they did groundbreaking work in diving and water safety and suction entrapment.

And of course, they were the original authors of the CPO program. And yeah, they did a lot for this, this industry. And so I just love that you're, you know, you're continuing to work with water shape.

And that's awesome that you guys are putting out two articles a month. That's amazing. I love it. And so and people can find this online at water shape. Yeah, you go to water.

I'll plug it shamelessly here. You go to watershapes.com. You sign up. It's free that you start getting these email newsletters and they contain each one contains three original feature articles. So we do six a month.

And then there's old stuff that we rerun and stuff about water shape university notices of their upcoming programs and.

And we're writing good English.

Stickler man. And the website itself watershapes.com is really fun. It's got everything that's ever been published in print online on the publication and perpetuity.

It's about 5000 articles covering the rats. I mean, there's a lot of stuff there. You can, it's an amazing body of work. And it's a big website.

And, you know, really proud. Still be a part of it. Yeah. Well, and so, you know, typically on Wednesdays, I like to do myth busting, right? And so who better to ask our historian, right?

Then some of these common myths that we we all hear. And so I'm just going to kind of dive right into it head first.

I mean, I want to say something about this before we dive right into it head. I thought a lot about this when you know we first started talking about doing it. And because I overthink things.

I started looking about like the question of myth. What do we mean when we say this is a myth while it's something that's untrue.

But in the traditional sense, the way the meaning of myth is very different than the way it's commonly used today.

Additionally, a myth is a story that tells a profound truth, but using symbolism to do it. And nobody believes that it's literally true.

You know, in mythology, talk about history. I mean, probably comes as no surprise to anyone that I'm a big fan of mythology. So is my husband big time.

Yeah. And nobody thinks that there was a guy named Icarus that flew too close to the sun on wings of wax. They melted a new felon died into the sea. You know, it's like who thinks of that?

Well, but if you just story represents, you know, the perils of ambition and ego and it has a really profound truth that it tells.

And I think it also says a lot about bad material selection in the case of Icarus and wax wings. But if you look at myths, they almost all have that component to it where it's a fanciful story that says something often times profound about ourselves.

And the world will live in. And so that's the traditional myth. And, you know, the myth in the myth busting is something that's not true that's generally believed to be true.

Right. So that's almost a opposite meaning. And then, you know, I got thinking there's all this language about untruths.

You know, misconception, deception, wives tales, which is seems unfriendly, you know. And so, but it's like the show myth busters.

I got this idea. I used to love that show when I was younger. Myth busting.

Not had been a hit if it was called misconception busters.

So in the common parlance of the times, the myths here are things that are believed by some people to be true, but to varying degrees are not.

It's kind of an interesting intellectual exercise. I personally like the word canard, which is like the popular falsehood canard busting sounds a little unnecessarily painful.

Yeah. Yeah. No, we're not from hard busting. So we're in real busting. So thank you for letting me get my professional tutorial wordsmithing neuroses off my chest there. Thanks.

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So the first one we have a couple. So the first one I I heard this when I was growing up. And again, I was a long time swimmer like Eric Knight, but you have to wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming.

Yeah, boy, that is the running with scissors version for the aquatics industry. It's like there is I've looked this up more than once.

You know, there is no medical evidence to suggest that that's true. The idea is that will you start cramping?

Well, you know, if you overeat before you exercise, whether you're, you know, swimming or walking, you might become uncomfortable, you know.

But there's nothing that says that if you eat and then go swimming, you're going to start cramping up.

You know, the other version of I've heard is that well, when you're digesting food, your body directs the blood away from your muscles to your digestive organs.

So that's true, but not to the extent we're not going to be able to move.

Yeah. Well, and I think it also depends on what you're eating, right? So if you're sitting there eating a box of donuts and you get in the water, you're probably might cramp and probably going to feel nauseated and not feel very good.

Right. But if you, I mean, even when I did swimming before any of my races, I would have something light before I swam and then right after, depending on how, how much time in between each heat that I had.

I would definitely snap, but I always made sure it was light. It was healthy. And it was just fuel for my body, verse, just stuffing my face with like a donut because it's quick and easy.

As much as well, enjoy stuffing our face with the donut. You're absolutely right. And there's a profound relationship between diet and exercise.

You know, to say that this isn't true is not to say that you shouldn't be mindful of why you're eating before and after exercising. You know, there's a lot of science behind that. I just remember hearing this so much as a kid.

You know, my parents were really into that. And it was like, I think that was their idea of aquatic safety. Like, oh, don't eat 30 minutes before you go in. Like if you stick your toe and all of a sudden it's going to cramp.

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, again, my mom would say she'd always make sure I had something to eat before a race or I went swimming, but it always had to be healthy. You know, there's always those snack bars at swim meets, but she would always say, you know, if you want, we can have like a celebratory dinner or lunch after, but until your race races are done, you're going to eat this. And I actually very much appreciate that because it really helped me learn and grow what food to pick and what food not to pick.

And of course, everyone indulges, right? But it's, you know, it's like 80 20 role. I think it's also good to point out here about the importance of hydration and exercise. Yeah.

You want to hydrate before you exercise. You don't, you know, if you get way too thirsty when you're exercising and drink is probably too late at that point.

And when you're swimming, you sweat. You sweat when you swim. I mean, when you're sitting there swimming lots of laps, you need to make sure that you're hydrating. I always will put, you know, like those little gels that a lot of bikers will use.

They'll like take a little gel. I did that a lot of times for swimming or I'd put electrolytes in my in my cup or my shaker cup. And I'd always I would always have something at one lane, one end of the pool because here I might go swim 20 laps. And I'm like, oh, man, I'm kind of thirsty.

You do. You sweat when you swim. You sweat when you swim. I kind of stumped you on that one. So I think we've kind of bummed that one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like you're going to research what I just said to you after this call. But yeah, I'm.

What when you swim, you do. Yeah. But a lot of people, I mean, I said that I don't remember who I said it to you, but I said it to someone. They're like, no, you don't. I'm like, you're exercising.

You're watching way instantaneously. Right. You don't eat that towel. But so another one that I think is common is chlorine is what causes red and irritated eyes. Yeah. And here we go into water chemistry. You know,

if there's a subject in the industry that causes debate has been subject to what a lot of people would characterize as misinformation, even deliberate deception in some cases.

Water chemistry is it. You know, this one kind of opens the door. You know, chlorine, you talk about getting a bad rap over the years.

Chlorine is not perfect. It has as we'll discuss there are issues with it, but it is still the most effective way to oxidize and sanitize a pool.

Well, people that are like ozone proponents right there would disagree with me. But a lot of people associate negative effects of swimming with chlorine. I think we can all agree on that.

The red eyes, irritated eyes and dry skin, sometimes trouble breathing is associated with chlorine. And really it's chloramines. It's, you know, chlorine that has already interacted with organic compounds or organic germs.

There's stuff that pathogens, you know, when it does its work combines into disinfection by products.

Primarily chloramines are the ones that we're concerned with, but there's other stuff too. You try hollow methods and whole family of chemicals that form as a result of chlorine doing its job, free available chlorine doing its job.

And so the real culprit is chloramines when you have those itchy eyes.

Yeah. Well, let's let's kind of shift gears a little bit. And I will say I have touched on this myth in a couple of some of my other episodes, but I like it because I like hearing the different perspectives of this myth. And so here goes clear water means the pool is clean.

Yeah, it's natural to think that clear water is safe, but bacteria and other types of pathogens are invisible and they can be present even at high levels in water that appears clean.

And so, you know, water is such a dynamic thing, you know, it sort of has a life of its own. And you can't make assumptions about it.

You know, you can get a good idea that if it's cloudy and gross and filled out, you go, well, yeah, you know, there's a problem here.

But clean water clear water can also hire harmful life forms.

Yeah, it goes to radium can exist in clear water.

Yes, it can. And that is not a fun one. Well, and you know, again, I'll say before I dove, you know, swimming long time before I really got into this part of the industry,

playing more, right about the education and the hands on not just lifeguards swimming water safety instructor, but I used to go to all these, you know, hotels and or different pools and I would just jump right in.

I'm like, oh, sweet, the pool looks nice, clean crystal clear. I'm going to go in. I'll be fine.

But now that I've had the opportunity to really read and go through training and, you know, continuously do education.

I'm like, oh, and so I will say probably for the last, you know, 10, 15 years, anytime I travel, if I know there's going to be a pool there and I'm thinking, well, maybe I'll get some laps in or maybe, you know, if I'm not too tired from walking the show floor, I'll go swim, you know, before or after work for an hour or so.

But I bring my test strips because there have been times where I have seen a clear, you know, nice looking clean pool and then I'll use the test strip and I'll go through all that.

And I'm like, you're not clean at all and I'll ask them like, do you have, you know, an operator on staff, you don't do you have someone that's managing the pool, a service company and a lot of the times, you know, hear, oh, you know, it's not required, but we do do this and, you know, we had chemicals and I'm like, so I'm very cautious and I definitely would extend to those listening, you know, homeowners, swimmers, what have you do your research, make sure that water is clean before you jump in it.

And another thing too is, and it's not related, but I am such a stickler anytime I walk on the pool deck, I always have sandals on or anytime I shower and same thing with my kids, you know, they do those weekly swim lessons and they will because they're going to be going into the swim team, hopefully.

But I always make sure they have crocs on or something because there are just there's so many different bacteria and viruses on that floor that people are just kind of carrying around.

You know, I did an article with Aqua a few years ago, it's one of my favorites I've ever done about biofilm and I learned that biofilm exists anywhere you have water and a surface.

So a lot of times it's at a microscopic level, but it's, you know, it's a natural occurring colonization of microorganisms and it's everywhere.

You know, it's in your plumbing in your home, you know, it's in the garden hose, it's in your mouth.

And so biofilm, you know, contains dozens, if not hundreds of different types of microorganisms and the most of them are not harmful, but some of them are and they can exist anywhere.

The water is touching a surface and it forms very quickly and so you have to be aware that when you're aquatic environments, especially are biologically dynamic and, you know, our natural immune systems can handle a lot of it.

A lot of it wouldn't hurt us to begin with, but yeah, having, you know, hygiene in and around pools is important.

You know, I've always been an advocate of showering before you go swimming, you know, because it reduces the stuff that gets put in the water.

Yeah.

And so there's a lot to be said for being aware hygienically when you're swimming.

Yeah, I could not agree more, I could not agree more.

Well, here's a fun one salt water, salt water words salt water pools don't use chlorine.

Yeah, that's a popular one that was going around for a long time.

I remember when salt water pools were introduced in the 90s came over from technology that came over originally from Australia.

And we got a big presentation about it at pool and spa news back then and it just seemed like such an ingenious idea.

And a lot of people still really believe in it, even though it's become a lot of people have also become more critical of it, but that a salt water pool is not chlorinated is just incorrect.

What you really have is a chlorine factory in your pool, you know, sodium chloride, you know, it makes hypochlorous acid.

And it is salt water pools are chlorinated is a point.

And so they kind of I mostly heard that from consumers that were under that impression and it's just not true.

They are chlorinated pools and salt water pools that proponents of it will tell you that, you know, you're not transporting chlorine.

You're only making the chlorine that's necessary.

There's a lot of the advantages to it, but as time has gone on, you know, people have found there were issues with the water becoming corrosive issues with controlling total alkalinity.

And so like anything else, salt water pools have to be managed properly. And yes, they are chlorinated.

No, no, thank you. But yeah, I've heard that one for years. I probably as long as I've been in the industry. And again, I think based on it's where you're located in preference.

But you still have to maintain your pool.

Still have to take air that can't just walk out there.

There's there is no such thing as a maintenance free pool. People try to make them more maintenance friendly easier to maintain requiring less effort less expense.

But all bodies of water require maintenance here.

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine never cleaning my house, especially with two young kids running around and for babies and a husband that tracks in mud.

Sorry, babe, but on that boots, but it, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, I, there are some days where I might vacuum my house, not the whole house, but the main living quarters every single day, just because it constantly gets dirty.

And so why people think they don't need to give that same maybe not that, but that type of attention to their pool. It kind of baffles me. You have to take care of it.

You do have to take care of it. Yes.

Yeah, take care of it. And if you don't know, and if you don't know how to hire a service company to do so, easy as that. You know, I mean, my husband was like when he retires.

He wants to get a lot of land. We want to build a barn to minium. And I'm going to get more cats and we'll get some dogs and get animals.

And he was like, you know, I'd really like to have a pool in a hot tub in the backyard and I'm like, well, I know a few people.

But he's like, well, yeah, and you can take care of the pool. And I probably could. Yeah. But I know I'm going to be busy. And so for me, it's less stressful to hire someone to come out or a company to come out and care for my pool.

And that's just my preference. Well, you know, pool services are really multifaceted set of skills, you know, chemistry, hydraulics, you know, I mean, physical cleaning.

There's a lot to it. And yeah.

Yeah. I remember my dad and we had the pool and the backyard in Dublin, California. He was out there just about every single day.

Yeah, every single day, cleaning, doing chemicals, testing, you know, having some colorful words with the piping when there was a leak of some sort.

Yeah. Yes. And he, you know, anyways, but I always thought it was kind of funny to sit back and watch. But I learned a lot. But the one thing I will say is he was out there every single day on the pool.

And kind of with that, this is shifting gears. One that I've, you know, I've seen there's, they've made fun of this in a lot of comedy shows. I'm not going to name the comedy shows, but it's urine in the pool is harmless because chlorine kills everything.

Yeah. You know, I put this on the list because every year, it seems around this time going in the spring.

There's information that circles throughout media about various studies and information statistics about how every pool has pee in it. And that's probably true.

I mean, I try. Yeah. I know some people that don't get out.

You know, let's call it what it. Yeah, I always look at people like sitting at swim up bars for hours on end at resorts.

Yeah, I felt the, you know, I think those have always been the locations and resorts that I've avoided. I'm like, no.

Yeah, no. This is this is somewhat uncomfortable subject because it's a little gross. Yeah. I mean, chlorine will disinfect any bacteria that results from urine being introduced into the pool and it'll oxidize the compounds within urine.

So it is true that chlorine, you know, proper chlorine residual will handle a lot of what happens when people pee in a pool.

But again, it results in the disinfection byproducts and, you know, these combined substances that a compound set occur when chlorine doesn't work.

So the more people pee in the pool, the more chlorine is used, the more disinfection byproducts are formed.

And so being in a pool is not what you want to do in terms of maintaining proper water chemistry.

So yeah, don't pee in the pool if you're going to avoid it.

I'll tell you, it took my girls at a foreign six, it took them a little bit of time to understand they were like, well, I'm already in the water.

I'm like, girl, that's nasty. Get out, use the restroom and then jump back in. I mean, come on.

So anyways, no, I could not agree more. Well, you know, the other kind of misconception is that there's a chemical out there that will turn blue when you pee in the pool.

I was going to bring it up. So it's been on a couple different comedy shows. And what was it? I think it was on Adam Stanley movie, Roneps.

Remember that they were like out and then all the dads were in like the small like two, three foot waiting pool or whatever.

And obviously you just saw blue. Yeah, but I was pretty sure.

Pretty sure that's that's untrue. I don't think there is. I've never seen a chemical that does that. Have you?

I don't think so. I think it's more of a myth to scare. Yeah, I think it's yeah, you're going to get called out. You know, you'll be found out.

Right. And I, you know, it's awful, but I think I might have told my youngest one who again, she's done my taxes this year. She's four, but you know, she knows everything.

I think I did tell her last year that if she peed in the pool, it would be purple because purple is her favorite color. And I was like, you don't want people to see that.

And she was like, yeah, like so now she'll just when she's in some lessons, she'll come running up. And I'm like, what's wrong? I have to potty. And I'm like, Oh, okay, good. Go potty.

So some guilt, but I don't think I've seen a product that does that. No, I don't think so. And there's one out there that does. Hey, let me know.

Yeah, right. I'd love to read the article on that. Yeah, never seen one. Right.

You know, another really common one. And I've spoken to a few people about this, but it's if you can swim, you don't need to worry about drowning. And this is, in my opinion, one of the biggest myths and it always bothers me.

And I always go back to the Olympics, right? Because people are like, what is that lifeguard going to do? These are Olympic swimmers. What? You know, just because you know how to swim really well doesn't mean you can't drown.

No, that's absolutely true. You know, on one hand, it's also true that if you do know how to swim or children that out swim lessons, the statistics really run in your favor for being safe on the water.

I mean, you know, I think what step into swim says it's like 87% more, you know, safer if kids have had swim lessons and safety training. That said, anybody can drown.

I mean, you could have a heart attack while you're drowning. You can bang your head or it's a swimming water has inherent risks.

You know, I've done articles about what are all the safety hazards and a pool of drownings, one of them, of course, suction entrapment, diving accidents. But then there's like slip and ball. There's electrical safety. There's the biological element that we're talking about.

So they're swimming always water always carries risks asking many things in life that we enjoy doing. You know, and I think people forget it's not necessarily your ability, but it's your awareness awareness is everything. And with kids, of course, supervision.

The thing about this item is that if you're a parent and your kid is a competence woman, that doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of supervision.

Yeah, that needs to be there always with children in water.

Yeah, I mean, even when my kids are doing swim lessons, I, while there's always a guard on deck, my eyes are still watching my kids, you know, especially if one of my kids is on this end and they do it in the fair people just so it's warmer, but there might be one of my kids on this side and the other ones in the water.

But my eyes are still watching my daughter in the water, but my eyes are more, more focus on the daughter on the edge because here she might want to jump in and while there is a life guard.

That's my daughter. And so I'm always keeping my eyes on them. I don't rely on the lifeguard. They're not a babysitter. I am mom. And so I need to keep my eyes and supervise what my kids are doing.

What, hence why, you know, would I ever take them to a pool by myself? No, absolutely not a splash pad, maybe, but a pool. No, because I would not be able to properly supervise both kids, even if they could some, you know, from one lane to the other 25 meters.

Fantastic. Would I still watch them? Absolutely. Yeah, that's an evil one thing to me included. I mean, I've had times where I've I've pressed my luck with training and

haven't taken enough breaths. And even though I'm a very good swimmer, I've pushed myself in unfortunately passed out and I've been saved by a lifeguard.

Yeah, that was fun times. Safety is a course of your mention before a really big top subject.

And I've always advocated for the idea that we should be empowering consumers to take control of it rather than shying away from it.

You know, swim lessons are a big part of it. Supervisions a big part of it. But there's, you know, technical solutions alarms and other devices that help.

And so it's one of those issues that a consumer should, if they're buying a pool and they have small children, they should realize that there are inherent risks.

And there's a lot of things that they can do to dramatically minimize. Yeah.

Well, it's an awareness thing like he said.

Well, and even when we bought our house in Tennessee, we did look at something else with pools, but I said, you know what, I want to wait till they're a little bit older.

It's not to say when they're older, they'll be safer. But for my own just overall comfort level, I was like, I don't want to do this.

And you know, that actually brings me to another point is I think a lot of people think that pools are safer than maybe natural bodies of water.

But I'll tell you, you know, I've done the Iron Man a couple times. I think it was a gust. It was a gust of Georgia. I think it was, it was years ago.

But you would all jump in at the same, you know, they have like heats, right? But these would be heats of like 50 to 100 people and you would jump in.

And then I think it was like a 20, 30 second way and you do another big jump in and had some life guards. They had, they were in canoes, right?

But I'll tell you, I think I will say the lifeguards in those canoes were very quick if someone were to go down and got kicked in the head, they were quickly right there on them.

But that's something that I've heard that, you know, pools are safer than natural bodies of water or open water swimming.

Well, you know, it's understandable why people would feel that way. You know, there are a lot of barriers to people being comfortable in the water, not being able to see the bottom.

That's a big one. You know, the idea that there are critters swimming around in the water with you that might bite you.

Baby shark. That's one. And so, and, you know, the pools don't have, unless they're built this way, don't have the currents that you find in the ocean or rivers.

And so, you know, there's that plant material you can get tangled up in in a swimming bowl.

So there are elements of it that would create maybe make it safer in some cases and certainly make a lot of people more comfortable.

But is inherently risky for all of its benefits, for everything it does for us, for as much as we love it.

And that's another whole thing we can talk about forever.

You have to realize that there are dangers involved, you know, it's not an actual environment for humans to be in water.

When we're in something else's territory.

Yeah, we're not designed for it really.

But I will say I actually prefer swimming in open water.

Mine is getting kicked in the head and I did the iron man, but I actually prefer to swim in open water than to swim in a pool.

I like it. I like my space. I understand the dangers that come with it. Now, do I open water swim in the ocean? No.

I don't necessarily like that paddle board do other things, but I very much enjoy open water swimming in lakes.

And I used to do it all the time on my aunt's ranch. And I was in Merced California. She had this huge bass lake.

And we would always put all these inner tubes together and we called it like a flotilla.

And of course, I was younger and the adults were kind of floating and having their beverages.

But I really enjoyed jumping in and just swimming around more so than in a pool.

But that's just my preference. But you are right. A lot of people are nervous. They can't see the bottom.

The pool can be a gateway to those other things. You know, somebody learns to swim.

It's amazing. The number of activities that that opens them up to open water swimming be it in lakes or the ocean is one of those things, you know.

I was really into body surfing as a kid.

I never I could never was never good at that. Are you mean you mean when you say body surfing? Are you talking about?

Can't remember its college should know boogie boardy. I did boogie boarding. I tried board surfing.

But a few times, but really wasn't good at it. And I think I got hit in the head by the board at Seal Beach one time and I was just like, forget it.

Can happen body surfing around where we literally just using your body, swimming into the wave and allowing it to catch.

Oh, that's why I thought I was.

But I mean, it's there's so many different activities that become available to you by being able to swim.

I'm going to move on to our last one. And I love this. So it's swimming pools are modern inventions. And I love it.

Yeah, that's that history thing. That's why I love it.

One of the like, I think the first known swimming pool, the great bath of Mohenjo Darrow in Afghanistan.

I was built in they estimate 2500 BC.

What's interesting about it is that vessel, which is still there, looks a lot like a contemporary swimming pool.

It's rectangular. It has steps. It has a drain. It had waterproofing.

Well, it's all very primitive, of course. You know, it was fed by a well and probably used for religious ceremonies.

They think it looks like a swimming pool. You might see it today in a lot of ways.

And of course, Roman baths, you know, and Japanese baths and their swimming pools, versions of them have been with us for thousands of years.

And so, you know, pool builders now are in a great tradition of water shaping that goes back to the beginning of recorded history.

And they're a companion to us and have always played a role in human society.

Yeah, it really has. I mean, I don't think people realize how long pools have been around.

And it always amazes me how they used to build things back then. I mean, look at the pyramids.

I think they're still studying how they built those pyramids today.

Yeah, they don't really know. There's a lot of unanswered questions.

And ancient people were, I think, a lot more sophisticated than we realize.

Things so too.

They were dealing with, you know, big ideas of mathematics and astronomy.

I saw once that the Roman baths, a lot of them had copper plates because they felt that that was like a sanitizing aspect.

There was a cleansing aspect to it. And it turns out, yeah, I mean, copper is algeicidal.

So, you know, a lot of things that we associate with now have been around a long time.

Of course, you know, we didn't have apps. They didn't have apps back then where they can, you know, remote control their system while driving.

Yeah, the apps today are crazy. I mean, like Pulbright has recently done some major changes to their apps.

And it's really cool. But yeah, apps are definitely helpful.

Well, Eric, I cannot thank you enough for coming on today and sharing some of your knowledge and your wealth of history.

Definitely in the aquatics. I mean, again, I love history, but I always love seeing someone else's perspective.

And, you know, it's worth to those listening. It's really worth remembering that the pool world, it's full of traditions, assumptions, and, you know, the hand-me-down rules that might sound right to them because we've heard them for so long.

But, you know, the truth behind some of these myths and quite most of them is usually that they're far more interesting, far more important, and, you know, really done the myth itself.

And so, myth stick around because they're simple, but the real story, the science, the history, the human behavior is what keeps people safe, keeps facilities running well.

And, you know, keeps our industry moving. And so, Eric, I can't thank you again for joining us today.

And if someone had wanted to touch base with you or ask you a couple of questions based on what we've talked about today, how could they reach to you?

Well, I am Eric at watershaped.org.

That's the RIC.

Any time. I am always, always loved from hearing from people in the industry.

And it's been a pleasure to be here. I love to do it again sometime, if that makes sense.

And, you know, everyone out there, stay curious. You know, ask questions. You know, be skeptical.

We live in an information age that's full of disinformation.

And so, it really pays to do your own homework and to delve into subjects, whether it's within this industry or anything, you know?

Not really.

Yeah, just because, you know, again, someone's been saying or doing this for 50 years.

I mean, I've spoken to people that have been doing plaster for 30 years one way, and they've gone and gotten educated.

Like, man, I didn't know that it was just a hand me down. So your point, stay educated and stay curious.

Just because, just because someone has said, oh, well, this is what, you know, has worked for the last 20, 30 years.

Doesn't mean that you shouldn't be open to change and doing your own research and education.

So always educate, educate, educate. And so Eric, I can't thank you enough for joining us today.

And until next time, folks, stay greedy.

I just wanted to give you a minute to say thank you for listening today.

I'm hoping you enjoyed the episode as much as we enjoyed putting it together for you.

Listen, it's been a couple of wacky, crazy, screwed up years from pandemic to pull them again.

I just want you to know that we are all in this together.

If there's anything that we can do for you, send me an email at talkingpoolsatgmail.com.

Again, that's talkingpoolsatgmail.com.

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