A Real Conversation With Gov. Josh Shapiro

I

My kids when I couldn't wear all black sneaks

Like you know you look weird and black you got to wear white now. You're cooler than I am. No, man. These are hocus

I'm wearing these

I have Achilles to the night. You're like a suburban dad

I have Achilles to the night. I have Achilles to the night. Let's come out to sneakers and spoil it like man

I was in the I was in the hoca store and I'm like yeah, I looked around and there was a

Twinge of hesitancy like are you at this point in your life?

And I'm like, yeah clearly you are man. I just left the podiatrists. I got some custom orthotics the whole night

You got through orthotics in there. I got orthotics in there as well. What do you put in there?

I need to put something in my Jordan, so it'll be a little more comfortable

So yeah, so I went to runner's world in Brentwood and they made a custom mold orthotic for me. Oh, you're all in

Yeah, like my I just my Achilles that they're intact, but they were bothering me. I'm old man my older guy

I know you still ball still play still play still box still out there still getting buckets

You know what I'm saying? Still play basketball a little bit

There's some skeptic reach us a little skeptic

Like because he posts his videos, right? So he's definitely posting the box

Yeah, post a box of Rachel is skeptical of anything that I've ever accomplished. Yeah, so but but by the way now when you play

You feel your Achilles holding on by just like a like dental floss

You go to the basket and like where's the rim? I'm not at the remnant. What's happening? Yeah, the rim used to get that quicker

And now I'm driving and I'm still looking at this some young kid like go up old school

I heard the old school thing that was the pisses you off, right?

So when I play now when when I played in high school play a little bit in college

So I got cut from the team as I read about the book the game was really slow to me

So I was able to kind of see a play before I happen get the ball where it needed to be

Like read but I was quick

Now the game is still slow to me, but I'm slow a shit now

And so I can't keep up with these guys and now my kids are at the age where they beat me up on the court

That's what supposed to happen

I suppose it turned over to respect the voice that you guys are hearing as we already have started the podcast is the voice of

Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro who joins us on higher learning day everybody give it up for the governor

Thanks. I'm good to be with you

Um now before we have this conversation. I want to ask you a question

Uh as I've watched your career sort of um

Blossom developed. I've heard the name

Charlemagne's like you got taught to Josh Shapiro, man Josh Shapiro. So yeah

Uh, can we have a real conversation today? I hope so yeah, otherwise that wouldn't be here. There you go

I'm hoping to have a real conversation with you as well because

I think but it's a two-way street of course if you're asking me to be thoughtful we have to have a thoughtful conversation both ways

We will choose buzzwords, but actually have a thoughtful in-depth conversation

We guarantee you that anything that we ask

Um moving forward it comes from our genuine desire to know you better and to connect better with our audience great

Okay, um first question the book

Uh Rachel hold the book up

Thank you

Okay, cuz I don't I don't have mine where we keep the light yeah hold up that New York Times best seller

Best list

Best seller right there like I think that Ben and I are aspiring to be right right

This book is a very inspirational read and I read it

It also just to be honest

It's a great read, but it comes across as the type of inspirational book that one writes

Like the audacity of hope or something else when they're hoping to reach a broader audience and make a run for higher office

Is that any part of the calculus in the book part of what you said is true?

Part of what you said is not okay

And first off, I would never put myself in the same categories Barack Obama in this book

I'd never put in the category of audacity of hope. I think that was an extraordinary book. It is he's an extraordinary man

I feel blessed

To have him in my life and and to consider him a friend

I started to write this book

Because I saw a great disconnect between the people I was meeting along the way

The people who were doing good stuff in their community the people who were shining a lot of light

so talk about the book

And the politicians who quite frankly weren't reflecting the goodness of the people who I was visiting with every day

And so I wanted to write a book about the goodness. I saw every day the light I saw

And maybe that would be an opportunity to repair a politics right if the politicians started taking their cues from the people

As opposed to the politics just kind of defining in a negative way that the people the second thing I set out to do

Was to frankly be more open about myself

I think it's important when someone's leading particularly in a job like governor mayor write these executive roles

For people to know who you are and what motivates you

And I wanted to be really open about how my family and my faith motivate me to serve

And how by being open to these people I meet along the way. It's allowed me

To learn more about my own self my own faith and find myself more connected to them now

It is true. I wanted to share that. I wanted to be more out there. I wanted to be more honest with not not eyes

But like more open with folks about myself

I did not write this book

To try and you know

Think about running for something else or for political reasons. There's some folks who would argue that

It's probably not smart politically by being open about my faith at a time where you know

That's not maybe the most popular thing

But I wanted to be true to who I am. I wanted to make sure folks knew who I am in the middle of writing this book

This book about light

Darkness came on my family and I when we were attacked in our home and

This person tried to kill me and kill my family

And through that I saw even greater light from people people of all different faiths

All different walks of life came together to lift up me and my family in prayer with support and so many other things

And so even though that ended up being the first chapter

It was obviously not something I contemplated when I began writing this book

So look I get if you want to keep it real like I get the people view it cynically anytime a politician writes a book

To me this was a way for me to connect deeper certainly with the people of Pennsylvania who I represent and yeah with a broader audience with more people

Understand what motivates me to serve and hopefully attract other you know good people in the service

I also think that the book is so relevant right now just because of where we are as a society just in the world

And it feels like we can't see the light

So I'm wondering for you and maybe you thought about this too as you were writing anything seemed to be worse now

But when you look at America, where do you see the light right now

From the people not the politicians

And are you talking on the net and because you kind of touched on this too on a national level or

You're talking about national policies. I am I'm in look you the elephant in the room of course is the president who who I think

Am I here to be political? I just want to be responsive to your question math. I think he brings chaos and

cruelty and corruption

Into our world every day. I've got four kids 24 21 17 15

And their entire frame of reference on politics taking their dad out of it has been shaped by Donald Trump

And that chaos cruelty and corruption over the last decade

My theory of the case which I express in this book is we're better than that

And the people do better than he does every day

And I want us to be defined by the people not by the corrosive politics that we're experiencing every day

I also, you know, I've shared a lot about how I'm the only governor in the country from by the way the swingiest state in the country

Excess entry. I was the only one. There's now one other with a divided legislature

So I got a Republicans who lead the Senate by two votes and Democrats who lead the House by one vote

So for me to get anything done we've got to bring Democrats and Republicans together and by the way

We do really successful. I'm happy to get into it during the show in terms of what we've done

So I share that with you because I think we're showing in Pennsylvania

We can actually find ways to come together and get shit done

Whereas at the national level, it's just corrosive. It's toxic. It's negative

And I would hope that our national politics can be fixed

By some of the stories I share of the good people in this book and politicians listening to them

Not finding the sort of incentives on the edges of our politics that too oftentimes to find our world

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It's interesting the belief in people

I consider myself we consider ourselves to be humanists on this podcast and it shapes a lot of the ways that we have conversations

Um the frustration that people feel when you say that we are better than this yeah

But we though we some version of the we voted for

Mass deportations voted for ice on the streets

Maybe didn't vote for this version of it, but voted for

What looks like to me

Uh

A fascist is a fascist xenophobic

administration

It doesn't sometimes feel like we're better

I think that's a tension that a lot of Americans feel sometimes about asking the question of how good we actually are

When you see that goodness and you say that we're better

What makes you say that because I think it's it's kind of a false frame and I'm I mean that with the utmost respect to suggest that

Because people chose Donald Trump over Kamala Harris

They voted for the unconstitutional unlawful

Dangerous destructive

Approach to immigration that we just saw in Minneapolis

By the way, they voted to secure the border. I support that. I want the border secured

They did not vote for these extremist policies. By the way, they didn't vote for all these different wars and engagements that the president is in overseas

I'm sure we'll we'll get into that certainly they they did not vote to have their prices go way up because Donald Trump

Press the button and started a fucking tariff war and began to jack up prices at the grocery store at the fuel pump

When you buy something on Amazon your hook is cost more now because of his tariffs

And so they didn't vote for what Donald Trump is delivering so I don't buy that um he won the election

Mm-hmm

I think people were frustrated with their direction

The things were going under president Biden

I'll do respect him. I think they were frustrated by the way the process kind of played out within our party

Uh, I wish they wouldn't have chosen Donald Trump. I worked my tail off to have them

At least in Pennsylvania try and choose

Kamala Harris it didn't go that way

But I don't think people voted for the kind of chaos and cruelty that we're seeing all across the country right now

But didn't they vote for a brand and by the way, this is not in any way. It's straight up indict the voters

You have to make your case to the voters and get them right. I have great respect for the voters

But didn't make Donald Trump apart me. Sure. I think Donald Trump pulled the wall over their eyes

But they voted for a specific brand of political ugliness

post

January 6th they voted for a demonizing of the people they share their communities with who are undocumented people they there is

Some would say there is a version of

uh

Political evil that Trump is a magnetism represents. Do you think that's true or no?

I think Donald Trump represents a unique kind of evil and chaos and cruelty

I do and I think you're seeing a play out every day across America where

America is more dangerous

Were things cost more fewer people have access to health care

There's greater instability across the world all because of Donald Trump

And I think he is creating others in our society

He points out a particular group and attacks them sets them aside pits Americans against one another

I think that makes us less safe and I think that's bad not just for our politics

I think it's bad for site because back to I said before my kids have grown up with this frame

That it's not about loving your neighbor which are you know kind of

I think a through line through all of our faiths all of our religions that you should love that neighbor

He's tearing up that playbook and instead going after our fellow Americans

And I think that that's really really dangerous in toxic

Oh

I

Like reading your book. It's it's really great seeing what you've done and how dedicated you are to the state of Pennsylvania

Even turning down the opportunity to run for senate because you wanted to you were doing such good work

And you wanted to continue to see the work and you have this conversation and read the book

I don't want to give too much but you have this conversation about how

It would take a longer time when you talk about I mean you you pride yourself and rightfully so you've done in the state of being able to work across the aisle and to work

bring people together

In the name of the people even if you might differ on certain things

I'm wondering how does one replicate that

What you've been able to do in the state of Pennsylvania by bringing those diverse viewpoints and and and common ground together on a national level

Because it's easy to to say, you know, it's the people and we believe in that but how do you make that happen?

Yeah, in a beer way

So first of I'm I'm doing it in the toughest state in the country to get elected in and then to govern it

I mean where is divided politically divided as it comes right I go

On Democratic US Senator one Republican. I got a split congressional delegation. I think I've got two Republican senators

You got two Republicans. They'll come on your show and I'm not gonna

Um, and you know at least in terms of what the registration is next to the right and I got I think I mentioned before

253 state lawmakers the entire difference between those two for the three is three seats. Yeah, so just to give you a sense of that

What I try to do is sit down with the Republican leaders and say hey look what what are the 10 things you want to do

I'll tell you the 10 things I want to do

And then inevitably you know, there's gonna be 4567 you're not gonna agree on but there might be 3045 that you do agree on

That's where you have to hit the pause button

Because in my state the approach I take is all right. I'm not gonna obsess about the things we disagree on

I'm still gonna

Advocate for them. I'm still gonna believe in them. I'm still gonna speak out on them

But I'm not gonna let that stop progress on the four or five things we do agree on and we work hard to hammer it out

At the national level

They seem to only want to focus on the things that they disagree on

And I think that there is an incentive structure in our media and in the fundraising that they do at the national level

That forces you not to compromise and come together but actually to run to the extremes and just differ

You think about if I go out and tweet something about how I worked with Democrats from Republicans to accomplish this and you know

Assuming by the way, it's something that people in my state won

Is that gonna get more likes on social media than

You know that person's a jerk and I'm gonna fight with them and this and that no

I mean, you know, it's gonna get more likes. You know, it's gonna raise more money

And so I think we've got this incentive structure that forces people to the extremes

When at the end of the day what people really want

Is if you're occupying a position of trust

He's trying to make their lives just a little bit better right fix their kids school make their streets a little safer

Make sure there's a job in the community they love protect their freedoms

It kind of stay out of their business in terms of the decisions

They want to make over their own bodies or with their families or for their kids

That's common sense stuff

But it's not incentivized in our politics today. It's working in Pennsylvania

It should be working at the national level and you know, I'm gonna do everything I can to make this

You know an example to others that that we can repair our politics that you can do some good

An under reported story right now is places all over the country where a crime is dropping

um

I've made the

The statement here that it's difficult for the president

To take

Credit for a dropping crime because

He needs to position a lot of blue cities as Gotham City

Right and himself as Batman home and if there's no need for a Batman if you know local mayors

And local governments

guys like Brandon Scott

They're like all those are in a place if ultimately they're actually you know having success. Yeah

Pennsylvania is one of those places where crime has been dropping

Particularly in Philly which got one of the worst Gotham city reputations over the last couple years

How and why is this happening?

Well first off

Mara Parker's done a great job in Philly. She's a good buddy of mine and um, we've been allies and friends for 20

20 plus years

Let me explain. I fundamentally believe if you do not have a safe community

No one wants to live there kids are afraid to go out and play businesses aren't going to locate there

It's kind of the foundational thing you got to be safe in your community

So when I set out first I was a turning general now running for governor. I made clear safety was going to be top of the list

That we were going to hire two thousand more police officers across the state

And we're going to invest about a half a billion dollars in violence prevention organizations

Think like your local church group the rec groups particularly things that are groups that are working with young people to keep them

Working you know on you know on the right path

as a result of those investments

The 2000 cops that have billion dollars in in violence prevention

We have cut violent crime by 13% in Pennsylvania across the state and fatal gun violence is down 43%

A large reason for that is the investments another reason for which by the way the federal government has tried to pull away the federal

Dollars mm-hmm. I've had to sue them to get our money back and successfully and the second reason wise

We've worked really really hard to build trust between the community and the police

To make sure our police look like the communities that they are sworn to serve and protect that we put a lot more money into training

By the way, when a police officer does something wrong, we hold them accountable as well the communities to see that

I think the most important tool for law enforcement

Not a gun or a badger radio

It's trust

If the community sees you as being a trustworthy steward of their safety, they're going to respond well to that

Would you saw with the president in Minneapolis and by the way what you saw here in LA? I don't I don't want to pine on

California as much I don't know as much as the mayor here or the governor or what have you but you've seen it in LA

You've seen in Chicago. You've seen in Portland federal troops being dispatched then immediately erode that trust and make things less safe

Make things more on edge

So to me, it's about investment

It's about building trust. It's about making sure the community feels like those were sworn to serve and protect you

Actually are doing that work and that is why I think we've been able to reduce crime

We have worked in our state with our local mayors including Mayor Parker and Philadelphia to make sure that we are complementing the work they do our

Law enforcement teams meet regularly talk on a daily basis. We share resources. We share intel

We combine on different efforts. So one plus one kind of equals three

Whether it's huge events like what we're hosting across Pennsylvania for USA 250 or whether it's just the daily work to keep our

Street safe

I know how fundamental and foundational that is and and we're making that happen in Pennsylvania

Adding cops to the street a lot of our listeners are gonna hear you're gonna you're on kind of a lefty podcast

Yeah, like they probably won't like that. They like adding cops to a lot of our

You asked me to have an honest thoughtful conversation and that's what we're gonna do so

When we talk about adding police to the streets number one or increasing police budgets

How do we make sure that these

Police are properly trained in the right cops as you said

How do we make sure that taxpayer money isn't going to

Police drones police robots like a militarized police force that is as hard and against a neighborhood

How do we mitigate the effects that overpolicing can have on a community while adding two thousand more cops to the street?

So I can speak about the Pennsylvania state police certainly and how we do it

But I want to just say and and I get there's some people maybe watching who are kind of scratched in their head

Maybe not liking what I'm saying, but let me tell you some

The plans that we devised in Pennsylvania that are working

Came for me listening to the community

Not just showing up at a protest, but actually showing up in the neighborhoods that lie of those protests walk through and don't spend the time

Listening to the people in the communities. You listen to people in the communities. They want to be safe

Right, it's just an indictment of the protesters right now that are from those communities. No, no

Hear me on this. Yeah, when those protests walk through a community, right?

I think by the way righteously protesting they have every right to do that and and I support people doing that

But I think it is important that while you're doing that you stop and listen to the communities that are really affected by the policies

If I was in artful and how I said that I apologize, but that is what I'm trying to convey

When I when I talk to people in the neighborhoods and they'll say to me listen

We want our streets to be safe. Yeah, we want more police

We don't want them pulling over our son just because the color of his skin

But we want to make sure that if someone's bringing a gun someone's bringing a knife someone's you know

Creating problems that that's going to be dealt with in a responsible way

I listen to the communities all across our state. I've responded to that

And I think as a result of us bringing crime down you're seeing our economy grow

You're seeing more kids showing up for school

You're seeing our education system improve. I think it's foundational the work we do

Yeah, a lot of times we're gonna talk about that if you ask my mother and my grandmother

They're not gonna say it. Okay. We like you know, you know, you mean it's it's it's it's it's it's it's

We can't argue about it. No, no, no, no, no, no

I'm saying no, if you ask my mother and my grandmother, they're gonna be like we need to pull this around you

Like yeah, they will say yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we talked about that on the podcast as well

I don't know if you ask my mother my grandmother, they're gonna be like you like now we need we need some cops around here

It's an interesting tension that exists sometimes and it is so much generational it is somewhat generational

But at the same time, I think that conversation has to keep evolving because sometimes it feels like

Can more police means more police culture and that just has not worked out for a lot of black and brown

Which is what we talk about is like how do you use your police force like you talked about

The community with churches like I think when you see that kind of see the police actively working with it or working with

A mental health or so like social programs like that. That is what

I say policing where it's in a positive way. I think you're right

And I don't think I fully answered your question though about kind of the state police and how we've approached it

I was a little unarmedful when I said before and I went back and then I never got to the the point of the heart of your question

We have invested an extraordinary amount of money not just in the bodies that we put out there

But in the training that those new police officers get we're building a new academy to make sure that they are getting that state

They are training we invest in bringing the police into working with the community on violence prevention initiatives

We invest in trying to get police officers out of their cars walking the beat so they get to know their neighbors

I think all that stuff is really really important to create a culture that is not what you call it sort of over policing

But instead a culture of trust and of building that faith with the neighbors and look the data shows it's working

We got a lot more work to do and we've got to continue to focus not just on the data of crime coming down

But making sure that trust quotient goes up

Talking about trust. I mean I would think a lot of voters either

I mean there a lot that feel disenfranchised maybe feel politically homeless have a distrust for

The system and I think a lot of that plays into messaging

Right like we're I'm sitting here talking to you. I'm hearing you

I feel connected to what you're saying. I read the book. I'm understanding it whether I agree or disagree

I understand it. I hear you a lot of times that messaging like what you're doing in Pennsylvania or on a national level gets lost in

Social media people only reading a quick headline in the podcast and in the way that it comes out

And then they feel disconnected or they just get it wrong or they don't see what's happening

And you're doing the work in in Pennsylvania as we talk about

But for some reason on a national level it doesn't seem like this in Pennsylvania

People don't feel it particularly

In the democratic party. They don't feel it. How do you as a politician combat that how do you combat

Social media? How do you combat people who are have a distrust in it? You've been successful within in Pennsylvania

You've seen the results but on a national level

How do you fix that? It's hard. Yeah, it feels impossible. You know

I can give you an answer as a governor, but let me let me start by giving me an answer just as a dad

Right some a dad to four kids

Who consume I would say damn near a hundred percent of their news on social media

Where it's being fed to them as opposed to them going out to eat right and

I I am constantly saying to my kids

Hey, where'd you see that? Have you kind of tried to source that somewhere else? Are you sure it's true?

Not arguing head disagree with your viewer or whatever I want my kids to disagree with me

I want them to form their own opinions. That's a good thing

But trying to teach them to be good digital citizens where they actually go a little bit deeper do a little bit of research

Learn a little bit more so they can form those thoughtful opinions because to your point

It's just usually a headline that triggers something and then that's that's what they think

So that's you know, that's a struggle lawyer and I have just his parents every day trying to help our kids

Learn things in a more thoughtful way and then form their own opinions

Look as a governor. I I view myself as accountable to 13 million Pennsylvanians

and

You know mindful that maybe now some folks outside Pennsylvania are curious what my thoughts are on that on different things

And so what I try and do is sit down

Folks like you and others and have long and thoughtful conversations like this

I recognize that someone can snip a couple of my words right and then turn that into some viral moment and

Misunderstanding. I'm sure there's something I've already said that someone's gonna snip and say that they you know

They don't like this that or the other thing and I think it's incumbent upon me to sit

Answer questions to give a thoughtful answer and hopefully begin to change the culture of how people consume

Information and get them not just to look at the headline but actually listen to a longer dialogue like this

I think if you look you know fewer and fewer people are consuming media in traditional ways

But they're listening along for a podcast like this

You all I think in many ways have a responsibility

To helping fix this because you have earned something. There's really valuable in this road

You've earned trust from your listeners

And so when you have someone on like me you should ask me questions

You should push me to answer them in a thoughtful way and in a long form way and hopefully that begins to also repair

How people consume information what they think and create space for not just headlines, but something a little deeper than that

Tard I wish I had a perfect answer for you. I don't

I also sorry one one last thing. I mean, I think we do have to acknowledge that these social media companies

They do have some responsibility here. It's not just to like put up a blank slate and say hey, you see say whatever the hell you want

there has to be

some

measure of of checks on the system not left wing right wing text, but just some responsibility to the truth

And making sure that facts not fiction are what's put out there

Yeah, it just seems like the purpose is to divide and you kind of touched on that and that's why I'm wondering

How does it get any better? How do you combat that with all the good intention?

Um, it just feels almost like it's so overwhelming. It feels like an impossible task

Not trying to discourage it like you're doing the work, but I'm just saying it's it's it's like you said a people want a viral moment

They want what's what's going to be um, I guess salacious or just like attract divide people something

This is going to be controversial and it's like how when you're trying to put out the message out there

That's the truth in a good way that might not be as sexy to talk about. How do you come back?

A lot of it goes back to the algorithms and how they get set the algorithms are not set

To incentivize

thoughtful conversation that actually brings people together

It is incentivized to find that 10-second viral moment where some of the misspeaks or would have yet and takes it to an extreme

Yeah, happens to me all the time

Yeah, yeah, you know

You know governor. I mean well

But maybe I overreacted to bam passing up Kobe, you know, maybe I maybe I was crazy 83 points. Yeah, you saw crazy

So you thought that was your basketball fan you thought that was ethical you thought that was an ethical 83 points from bam

Why do you think it was not ethical?

Did you watch the last

10 minutes of the game?

When they they're filing on purpose everybody back here knows what I'm talking about they file on upper

I don't want to get into this whole thing. We're talking a little better. I mean he did shoot like a thousand free throws

He shot a thousand 43 free throws. It was amazing. By the way made was 80 plus percent of me. He played great

Yeah, he played well. I'm I'll apologize

They helped him after like 70, which is why yeah, I apologize

Whereas Kobe by the way Kobe got his 82 81 81

At a time where they hacked the hell out of him and didn't call those fast today. Those would be flagrants

He'd be shooting extra free throws pretty amazing. Is he is you need to be you need to go

You got to stand up for Philly, Philadelphia here. Yeah, I mean Kobe's our guy from Laura Mary

Who's your goat by the way? Huh? Who's your goat should we fight about that? It's Jordan. Okay. We're good. It's Jordan

It's Jordan. My kids keep trying to tell me Lebron

Generational

Generational who's second on your list Kobe's second

Lebron second man, I can't be that much of a Kobe's your top five Kobe's in my top five

Who I'm saying I mean like look from from obviously if I'm giving a top five that's based on whatever

But like Kobe Bryant just means a lot to me. He's one of those athletes. My great. It's Lebron

It's you have to consider I have guys in my top 10 that other guys might not like well

The Kamalajuan's in my team the dream. He was incredible. By the way, there's no Joel and bead without a Kamalajuan

Yeah, it might not be a Joel and be period

You know, he had the softest touch

Yeah, and it's just it's incredible. Who's your other two in your top five? So my top five would be

Just my top five will be it's it's like it's pretty generic. It's magic. Yeah magic. Yeah

Uh Lebron

Jordan at the one that Kobe five

I'll I'll put Kobe a five for me. Okay. I'll put Kobe a five. Okay, and that's is that's that's staying shit

So I'm I'm with cuz you can't really put Kobe ahead of right at this point. There's a legitimate conversation about whether or not

Steph is ahead of Kobe. Yeah, but then I Steph is past Kobe look

I would take Larry Bird out of that cuz I fucking hate the Celtics. Oh, hey, there's no Larry bird great player. Yeah

But I think there's an argument for will and for Steph certainly. Yeah will most of an eating player cream

as well, like cream with a cap of cream up there, but I think you got to put will over cream really

Yeah, I'm just so dumb. I mean the game was different. Yeah, but you're so dominant the cream's champion chips all-time score record all of that stuff

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Before we move away from Pennsylvania. I do want to ask can we do this more

I do want to ask about your relationship with meek Mill

This has been something because you know meek is one of those guys that meek is a very well-meaning curious guy

But every once in a while me just goes on Twitter and just go one time

He went on Twitter and he went too hard and then he said that you called him

And you were like yo meek too. I wish you would have done that. Okay

What like what's your relationship with meek Mill like like talk about what meek means it's it's a bit of a long story

If if I can get into I'm aware of the story I covered it when I was working at the other place like some of that stuff

But I know what so dear friend of mine for probably two decades now kind of Michael Rubin is

Good friends of meek who I did not know at the time and meek went in for what was

You know fairly routine probation hearing and the judge

Through him into jail for a minor probation violation

Popped a wheelie. Yeah, which you could argue isn't even probation violation, but

And she threw him in I if memory serves me. I think it was two years. Yeah

And Michael calls me I'm attorney general at the time. Michael calls me leaving the courthouse

Hair on fire angry, you know, they put meek away. This is wrong

And I'll be very honest with you my immediate reaction

Was meek must have done something and I cautioned Michael

I said I would just be a little bit careful here. You probably don't know something. I'm sure the judge had a reason

I was kind of on the side of I'm sure the justice system is right here

Didn't know meek didn't you know sort of couldn't weigh in on him personally

And I said to Michael let me just to spend some time on this. Let me look at the more I looked at it the more I sort of dug into it

The more I realized that meek had a real raw deal

And

Michael said to me I'm gonna do everything in my power to I think they called it free meek he and Jay got together

You know and did that not I just encouraged him as he went through that process

You should work to free me because it is a bum deal what he got

But you've got a lot of power you've got a lot of resources

You can't just make this about meek

You've got to make this about the thousand hundreds of thousands of people who get caught up in our system

Who are not famous like meek mill

But who get the same thing and they get in this perpetual cycle of

probation violations going back in

And yeah, do some about two michael's great credit

He

Listen created the reform movement

He and robbercraft and Jay and a whole bunch of folks and they've done extraordinary work both advocating for policy changes

And getting a whole bunch of people out of this dangerous cycle

I was proud to sign into law in Pennsylvania some of the most progressive far reaching probation reforms that in effect

Details but like sort of caps how long you be in there creates opportunities for this kind of thing to not happening it

The night that michael was successful and free meek he asked me hey, would you like to

Come meet up with him in a six years game or meet me because he went straight to six again meet him when he lands

I was like I really don't like I'm not looking for

Attention on this. I'm not looking like this. I'm not looking to like sort of make this about myself

I said but I would like to actually come and talk to him

And so we just had a quiet dinner of the three of us at at michael's house. I think maybe a day after he got out

And um, I got to tell you me he opened up my eyes to a lot of different things

I learned a lot more about the challenges that he and others had growing up in the way the system made it harder

For them to get a shot to get ahead

I learned a lot more about some of the failures of our criminal justice system

Um, and I learned a lot more about music to he asked me if I liked his music and I was brutally honest with him

My kids didn't I didn't I was like a man. I really find a lot of your music quite offensive

And then we sat there for hours. He would play a track

Ask me what I thought and then explain the meaning behind it

And so it kind of opened up my eyes a lot more to understanding his music the way he thinks the way he approaches things

And I'm a better person because that relationship

He is as as you said unbelievably curious and incredibly intelligent

And he also has these moments maybe where he kind of weighs in on some stuff that I wish you would

Um, I did go for her meek one day. I did calm and encourage him to maybe chill out on Twitter

Yeah, like I'm not trying to tell him what to think or what to say, but you know there's a way to do anyway

I feel blessed you know to have him in my life and to learn from him and I think I'm a more

compassionate person and understanding person because of what he's taught me over the years

And and I appreciate him and you know what there are a whole lot of people

who were no longer incarcerated

Who shouldn't have been incarcerated in the first place

Because of policies. I've changed in Pennsylvania of decisions. I've made on pardons and clemencies

Because of lessons that meek has taught me

Wow, wow, we got to talk a little bit about national politics here. Yeah, so um

You hit on something earlier when you were talking about your faith, which is very important to you

And you say it might not be the smartest political move for you to talk as some people have said that

Some people have said that to talk as much about your faith because it might hinder you

In the realm of national politics

I'll talk to a friend of mine who

Reach out to a bunch of people

When you're coming on and a friend of mine was like he talked about how much he liked you

I got two different responses. Oh boy. We're talking about both of these

But I'm gonna talk about the first one first. He goes love that guy

Um, then he goes too bad that you can't be president

This guy is Jewish and he's feeling a lot of weight right now. He's feeling

It's heavy for him and

I

We talked a little bit more about how he was feeling how he was feeling after what happened yesterday

How he's been feeling in Michigan. Um, in Michigan. Yes, of course

We talked a little bit about it on the podcast

How he's been feeling but he seemed to share some of the skepticism that you maybe intimated

People have told you about your rise and whether or not

Your faith would hold you back from being a national political figure. Do you think

That what my friends said is correct that a Jewish man cannot be the president a Jewish person cannot be the same one

I'm sorry your friend feels that way. I'm sorry. There are people who said to me

Hey, be careful about sharing yourself and your faith because I could be bad for you

politically. I'm sorry that that exists in our society certainly

Let me let me sort of break down your question a few things first my experience on this

Again coming from the perspective of being in Pennsylvania, which I think we can all agree that the toughest swing state biggest swing state the entire country

And by the way, I think Republicans Democrats would agree if you want to win national election you got to win Pennsylvania

When I was running for governor

And we were putting our first ad out there

Yeah, sometimes you run ad about your policy views sometimes you run ad attacking your opponent for their policy views

I decided I wanted to run an ad that was deeply personal

And that is to tell the people of Pennsylvania why I wanted to serve

What motivates me to serve and to me the central things that caused me a serve or family and faith

And so we ran an ad showing where I am

Pretty much near every Friday night, which is sitting around the

Dinner table with my family celebrating our Sabbath having our Sabbath dinner

And there were a bunch of political folks were like I don't think you want to

Run that ad people are going to know you're Jewish. I'm like I think they know I'm Jewish

But I wanted people to know who I am and what motivates me here's how I'm sharing that story with you after we ran that ad

I'd show up

in North Philly and

People would tell me about their iftar after Ramadan and how special that was for them

And they loved reading about my family meals. I'd show up in some rural

Communities where there weren't many Jews and people would want to tell me what lunches like after church on Sunday

Tell me about their Christmas Eve traditions

Being open about yourself and your faith

I think has the effect of actually allowing people to see you at a deeper level

And then share of themselves at a deeper level than what you might normally share with your governor with your mayor or something

Like that

So it's actually allowed me to connect deeper with folks and not only did I win the election

I got more votes anybody in the history of Pennsylvania running for governor not just Democrats, but Republicans independence as well

As for a broader conversation about America

I think America's reelect a woman a black person a gay person a Jewish person or whatever

What America wants is someone who's going to get shit done for them who's going to make their lives better

And they don't care what they look like or how they worship or what their gender is

They just want to know you're on their side and you're going to fight for them

I think it is a tired conversation

That we can't elect someone like X because of their characteristic

I think instead we have to understand the American people and this been my experience in Pennsylvania are a lot better

Than what our shallow politics suggests

And so I believe the American people will elect anybody who's ready to fight for them

Who's got a track record of delivering and who has the know how to get shit done

You do you think that's interesting do you think we're past as a country identity politics or even weaponizing

Identity or maybe even becoming the victim of it when it comes to politics

No, I don't think we're past it. Okay. I just think people

are better than it

um

Look Barack Obama's election victory was historic

But what I thought was even more historic and or more extraordinary about it is

The diverse coalition he pulled together in order to win

And he won and people voted for him because they felt that he was hopeful and he was going to bring change and he was going to deliver for them

um and he was a history-making candidate

My point in chairing that is I think America is ready for all of the above when it comes to people of different

characteristics different walks of life

But what America really needs is someone who's going to go bat for them every day fight for them every day

And be able to get stuff done for them every day that's that is the central thing people want

There's still identity politics

It's still incentivized in our social media. It's still used as a weapon

I just don't think that weapon is as strong as the will of the American people

Do you think you know we talked a little bit on the podcast the other day about the tragedy that happened in Michigan

And you know in your book you start the first chapter about you know the attack against your residents against you

With the conversations we're having here in this country and even you know you can

Within the world I guess do you think that Americans understand the rise of anti-Semitism over the past few years

It's really hard to not see it and know it's out there um I think it's

Beginning to be more understood

And sadly I think it's it's being more accepted as well

What you saw yesterday in Michigan is the latest example that and let's all agree. Thank God

Yeah, no one was killed. I mean that was

You know that that was a situation where a lot of lives could have been taken

And you know my friend Gretchen Whitmer was on TV. I think it was this morning

Making clear like there's no place for this we've got a condemnate. I think all leaders have to speak with moral clarity on this

There should be no room for anti-Semitism hatred bigotry racism homophobia any of that in our society

And when it rears its ugly head

We all need to stand up together and condemn it

And by the way, not just a Jewish governor all governors

Right, we all need a condemnate. That's why I was grateful for what Gretchen said today

I also think it's really important

That the seeds that get planted that lead to incidents like this

That we're sort of stop planning those seeds stop giving a pass to different things and call it out earlier on

Before it reaches the point where

Where there's violence before it reaches the point where

Somebody's gunned down before it reaches the point where little children's lives are are risked just simply because they go to school at a synagogue

Follow up

I there was a report that came out that after the election actually this was recent of

Of the election 2024 and it was done. I think by the Democrats

It was kind of like an autopsy of kind of what happened and the discussion was that

They concluded that Kamala Harris

Lost significant support because of the Biden administration's approach to the war in Gaza

I'm warning for you. How do you approach a conversation when it seems that progressive and moderate

Democrats seem particularly divided

over

Israel and what's happening in Gaza like how do you

Approach that type of conversation when it comes to unity like you talk of in bringing

diverse viewpoints and opinions together

So so let me answer that by picking up on the question we just

We're talking about related anti-Semitism

I think the way I approach this is making sure that we're having two distinct conversations

One about condemning anti-Semitism

Which to me is an issue that has no nuance. It's it's whatever black and white

We should all come together and say anti-Semitism is bad and we're going to speak out against it

The second conversation is

Middle East policy what's happening in Israel? It's happening in Gaza. It's happening in Iran and on that those issues are full of nuance

And we have to leave room for debate. We have to leave room for differences

And when someone has a different opinion than you on foreign policy. It doesn't make him an anti-Sem- uh foreign policy in Israel

It doesn't make him an anti-Semite

We have to create space for that discussion. So when you ask me how do you approach it? That's what I try and do

Let's be clear. There's no room for attacks based on your religion your ideology

Um, and again, I try and call that wherever I see I

communicated with governor Whitmer yesterday about the attack in Michigan

I communicated with mayor mandani whatever it was three four days ago after the attack outside his home

um motivated in

You know the the motivation was predicated upon different religions

But still there should be zero tolerance for any of that right?

So I try and separate out those two conversations leave space for real debate about what's happening

Say with Israel Middle East what having but make clear that we all have to rally together

With no nuance black and white speak with clarity when it comes to combating hatred and bigotry of all forms

Would you agree that it's sometimes difficult to do that?

Because any talk or any discussion any criticism of the government of Israel

um or

If you were to say that you're an anti-Semite I mean there was a resolution passed in the house

In congress. That's it anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism

So it seems like the nuance gets purposefully taken out of that argument to make any criticism any critique

um of the state of Israel

Not just with the policy and the genocide that it happens in ongoing right now is you know the ceasefire continues to be broken

But the historic treatment of the Palestinian people any deep dive into that and it seems like you're punished for it

You can't have the conversation. I think that's dangerous. And look I'd

I

We should

We should get into the issues so we can have a thoughtful conversation about it

But I don't think that if you are critical of Benjamin Netanyahu

You're an anti-Semite by the way, I'm critical of Benjamin Netanyahu

And I have been for years and years and years even predating October 7th. Um, I think

His approach has made Israel less safe

I think it's under my US national security

interest which is my primary concern

And I I think that

criticizing him as I do

Is in anti-Semitism by the way. I criticize Donald Trump every day. I've criticized him on your podcast

I'm a proud patriotic American

So I I think that you have to create space for honest dialogue for thoughtful discussion of differences as it relates to policy or

Political leadership or what have you the point. I'm I'm trying to make and if I apologize about not made that clearly

Is that we've got to be clear and resolute about standing up against the anti-Semitism standing up against hatred

Standing up against bigotry and that should be something we can come together and agree on

Well, let me try to crystallize what I'm saying a little bit more

I'm a black man living in America. I'm from South Ben Rouge, Louisiana

When I got to high school my high schools

1994 my high school had a white home coming queen in a black home coming queen

It's 1994 when I got to high school. I'm old guys

um

We can

We like we we I can step back and look at that and go

Look at the function of racism in my culture and my community

I can look at the historic treatment of black people in America other people in America and say that

apartheid has nothing on what we've done to to black people here

Historically and traditionally. I can't say that about Israel no matter how many how much work that I do

No matter how many people that I talk to no matter how many books that I read

I can't call not just Benjamin Netanyahu's regime now. I can't say that there's

Historically been an apartheid situation in Israel. I can't say that there's been tremendous

Well, what I'm when I say when I say Kent

Meaning in a good faith argument. I can have a conversation where I say

America is both this place that has provided the world with all kinds of different things

And it is also this tremendous tremendous project of systemic racism. That's a fact

And people go all those things are true

if I say that

Israel is on apartheid state or that in order for Israel to be founded where it is right now

There had to be this massive

Ethnic cleansing campaign that went on where people cannot go back to their homes

Checkpoints, whatever it is. We have that conversation. You start to hear people say that you hate Jewish people

Okay, I see your point right. Okay, so I fundamentally disagree with your viewpoint certainly

But I don't think you're an anti-Semite. I think that you are

Learning and struggling and grappling with issues that are really really tough and you've formed an opinion

One that I disagree with that

That you seemingly hold very honestly. I don't I mean

I don't think that you've got hate in your heart toward someone because they're Jewish

I think you've got different views say than I do about

Israel or about the Middle East. I mean, so

I'm trying to make sure I'm getting that

What I want what I'm interested in is the dignity of people

Yeah, and that animates me in a real way like I'm not a moral good person

Okay, but I do care about the dignity. I'm not trying to I don't want to people because I don't want people to you know

Pull up my my browser history and all that stuff

But like you want me to pull up your basketball

Well, I want to pull up my mask

I do want to have

An honest conversation about the dignity of the global south

about people's ability to live

full free

Self-determinative lives right and any state any state anywhere that might be encroaching on that

I believe that Israel has been one of the worst human rights

Violators in the history of his existence

Not saying it, but I believe that to be the case

I want to be able to talk about that so that we can talk about how we change things and have a lasting peace in that region

Okay, so we're we're talking about it. Yeah, and by the way, I think we're doing it really civilly and I appreciate it

When you more of that. So so let's walk through this. Mm-hmm. Okay

Usually the conversation you didn't start it here, but use the term

apartheid so we'll we'll get to that in a second certainly usually

The conversation starts around the idea of

Does Israel have the right to exist? Mm-hmm, right and exist as a Jewish state

So let's let's sort of start there if we have a thoughtful conversation about this

There are 43 countries in the world

That are majority Muslim

26 of those 43

recognize

Muslim

pardon me Islam as their official religion

There is one country in the world

That recognizes Judaism as their official religion. Mm-hmm

And so if we're going to have like an honest conversation about does the nation have a right to exist if it's predicated upon a

Faith

Kind of got to scratch your head and wonder why we talk about the one and not the other

26 but okay, let's talk about the one do you want me to answer that question?

Sure, if you want, okay, I want okay, yeah, okay. No. Well, this is what I would say. Yeah number one

That is true

But there are some interesting caveats here number one Israel is positioned worldwide as a Western liberal democracy, right

Western liberal democracies should not be oriented around or or not normally oriented around

Religion like ethno supremacy ethno religious supremacy. Okay, so let's talk about that. Okay, let's talk about so

but

You talk about peace and you talk about that. I want to hit both points, okay, you and I

I think both want the same thing we want peace in the Middle East

I'll define what peace looks like and you can share your thoughts peace to me are two nations

but you know

Israel and Palestinian country living side-by-side

In peace with full recognition for one another and acknowledgement that both have a right to exist

And an acknowledgement that the goal of each country is not to wipe out the other. That is what I want. I want peace

I think if one

doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist

Then you're in up not you then one is in effect

For really just permanent war

Because you're effectively saying Israel's got to go and

Israel's not going anywhere. So you're in effect saying we're just gonna have this permanent state of war in the Middle East

I want peace

And I want to see

Opportunity for peace and peace requires respect and dignity for all people in the region

And for ultimately two states were a long way from two states

But that has been my view for kind of probably the last 15 or 20 years or so

You realize that Israel is doing that though. You realize that as we speak

Israel and has over the course of its recent history and its you know longer history

like

Violated agreements that push further and further and build settlements into the West Bank and we're gonna

And X land that they should now they're threatening the existence of these people and as as they can self

Governing every single day. I'll address that because it's a fair point. Okay

I would also just say recognize that the governing authority

In Gaza Hamas

terrorist group that wants to wipe Israel and all Jews off off the map

So you've got problems here. I would argue terrorist

you know

Entity is is far more dangerous, but you've got problems here on the nuclear power nation both other side

But I would I would agree with you okay that the situation in the West Bank is unacceptable

In fact, just about a week or so ago

I called on Pam Bondi who's the attorney general of the United States

To investigate the killing of a Palestinian American who helped us be from northeast Philly who was killed

seemingly based on the information we have available to us seemingly by settlers

in the West Bank

And I made clear we need both a diplomatic solution to stop this type of

Of action in the middle in the West Bank and we need a full accounting for what happened to this American citizen while there

I've been very outspoken about what's happening in the West Bank is absolutely not okay

The idea that settlers are going in burning farms and killing people were driving them from their land

That is unacceptable to me

We're not in we're in violent agreement. I I would say on on that issue

I want to just mention there's there's one other word you used

And I don't want to let it hang there. I think it's important to have this conversation certainly

You use the word apartheid. Mm-hmm

Take a look

in Israel

The someone who would identify as Muslim someone who would identify as a Palestinian Christian

Um, they live in a society

With all of the same rights and legal responsibilities. Please help me finish. I got you as Israelis

They get elected to the Knesset which is their parliament

Um, they pay taxes. They can serve in the military. They are

citizens in the world in a way that a true apartheid state would not allow for

Um, good. I didn't mean to cut you off. Please um, I disagree with that. I know I do not think that they have all the same

rights. I think that there are both

soft violations of their rights and more structural violations of their rights

Um, you can look at things as the nation-state law. You there's many different ways that the government of Israel both

structurally and culturally

Establishes the supremacy that they have to have in their society

Um, in order for it to operate the way that it does because the math just doesn't work out

I don't want to hold you here and hold you on this because we got to go

I would love to get into this deeper with you, but I can't handle this

Well, well, well, we only have this we can't sit on this but wait, we'll we'll we'll appreciate the conversation

I do as well. It's a good example of how it should be. I appreciate the willingness to have the conversation and also

once again have to say again

Okay, that on high learning we were

We come in combating anti-Semitism before October 7th. We are not going to stand for any anti-Semitism

We

Like we're not going to but we are going to advocate for the dignity

And the humanity of the Palestinian people and I don't think that that has to be a choice

You don't have to have I don't either but and I just want us to make sure that because this is going to be issue moving forward

As we see support for Israel erode

Um across the American political landscape

We're going to have to have this conversation more robust. I don't either and and I think what you heard me say is very similar

To what I think your aspirational goal is what I hope your aspirational goal is and that is to have dignity for the Palestinian people their own homeland

Living side-by-side with Israel

I think what is dangerous here. I'm not accusing you of this by any stretch is for those who think

Israel doesn't have a right to exist in that conversation

That to me is a recipe for permanent war. And what I want to see is peace. I think you want to see peace as well

Safety for the Israeli people safety for the Palestinian people. I will ask you one more question before you leave

Uh, we'll get back to basketball. We'll get back to basketball right now

Like if we just just so easily you talking about this hoop right now you versus Obama one to 12

Make it take it. Is it make it take it make it take it

um

And and can we guarantee neither one of us are going to blur or kill these out right so we're going to be healthy

I don't know that you can guarantee that governor. I was like you versus Obama assuming you're both healthy assuming you're both

So we're both healthy

The ex-president is why he's 6364 right now you and he's he's really he's really good and he's in great shape

So um, I'm deadly for midrange

Okay

The problem I'm going to have is he is long

And he's got long no he's got long arms and so if he is able to stop me from getting

That midrange jump shot off. Mm-hmm

Or I'm off that day and I miss he's going to be in a position to box me. I get those

Rebounds. I think he has oh no once you shoot. That's it

Right because he gets a reason. Oh, no, we're not we're not bored. Oh, there's no but you just get on the shot

No, no, we playing for real skills base one-on-one you miss

It's the other guys ball. We're not playing hustle and ball. Oh, okay

I used to tough game. That's a close game

He's just man. He's long he's gonna be able to interrupt my jump shot

And as my kids will tell you if he pushes me further out

In the three that's where I'm gonna lose a lot of accuracy. So I look I'm confident myself

But it's a little hard to sit here and say. Oh, yeah, I'm gonna kick Obama's ass and

I'm not gonna say that. I'm not giving I'm not giving you that viral

Just by the way

From wait, have you ever played with him before? I actually haven't no I haven't played

This is this is the moment this if you could do anything you should at least challenge him to a game y'all should

Yes, this is this is I miss a present

Thank you for joining us

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