Aaron Spencer's June 22nd Trial: Defense Strategy, the System's Failure, and 90 Days to Prepare

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One more case I want to get to today, a trial date is finally on the calendar June 22nd.

After months of delays, a judge removed and a primary election that turned this case into

a national story, the clock is now running for real.

The next 90 days will determine whether Aaron Spencer walks into a general election

as a candidate or walks into a courtroom as a convicted felon.

The public thinks it knows this story.

The prosecution says it does it.

And less than three months, Jerry and Arkansas is going to decide which version is right.

One father, one dead predator, and a system that's being asked to explain itself.

Bob Mata is with myself at Rob and Drake to help break all of this down.

We got our dates, the 22nd.

There's been a lot of arguments.

Should this stay here?

Should it move somewhere else?

We have a new judge that thankfully is on this case.

It's not the same one that let the offender out to begin with.

Where do you think we're standing here?

Now that there's been a little breathing room between where we thought the trial was going to start

to where we're sitting right now with a date of June 22nd.

I think there's still, so what happened in the interim when I jump back?

They had the primaries in your neck of the woods and Aaron Spencer was running.

And he won the primary.

I guess the only person he's going up against during the general election in November is an

independent. So I think there's a hope within the Spencer camp that the state's going to think

better of this and decide not to try it. I keep trying to tell a family.

I'm like, I just don't want you to kind of like that's probably not going to happen.

This thing's going to trial.

There's good log in, which is unfortunate.

It's sad that it's that way because it's not a case that I think needs to be tried.

And I think if you were to pull the public at large down there, they would agree massively.

It would be a lot of type of situation.

So I mean, this allows the attorneys to go ahead and say, you know what,

we're going to have the new judge reconsider a bunch of the rulings that was made

that were made by the prior judge because we think that she got them wrong.

And I mean, it gives them that opportunity to really kind of dig in a bit more with some

of the decisions that, which is the one advantage of getting a new judge.

Because you have the option to be able to say, we're basically asking you to relitigate these,

not even reconsider what that judge did. We want you to form your own opinion on it.

And typically the judges will do it. So this is on the time to do that.

Whether or not they're going to do it is unknown yet. We'll find out when they file things.

I certainly would be trying to do it especially with the lost dashboard cam video,

which is inexplicable to me. I mean, the entire event theoretically was recorded and somehow got

lost by law enforcement. And we're talking about that the predator had a dash cam in his vehicle,

which in theory would have caught all of it on tape. When can they start? I mean, we have so

many damn cases like this bomb where it's like, oh, they lost it. And that's that's just kind of

where it ends. There's no. When those things should almost be litigated, really, you lost it,

then let's go figure out how you lost it. Let's go take a look at the timestamps of where this was

deleted and why and how. And let's just see how much of an accident it was. I mean, if they're

starting, I mean, what needs to be done? So this isn't such an easy lever for law enforcement to

pull. Does it need to be like literally on the books of like, look, if if this, if this material

is gone or destroyed or deleted, there will be a criminal investigation into that specific act

of doing that with that, with that slow people down from doing it because there would be really

clear paths to busting people for destroying evidence. I don't know what needs to be done here

because clearly this happens all the time and it doesn't seem like it's that far of a puddle

to jump over for law enforcement because they use this lever a lot to avoid accountability.

Yeah, man, here's where the problem is that the burden is on the defense to prove it.

Yeah, like it can't like because it's easy for the cops to come in and say, oh, it was accidentally

erased. It should be other Charlie totally separate from the case. It's just like, oh, this was

deleted. Well, that's illegal to have that deleted or to be lost. Yeah,

that becomes a very slippery slope. So all I can do on this, you know, accidentally deleted,

like, I mean, well, I mean, there probably are cases where they could look, okay, yes,

this was truly there will inevitably be truly accidental deletions. But if we make it far more

important, like you just, you don't do this really be careful. Don't fuck with this material

because if something happens, if you, whatever happens and it's gone, you could go to prison for

that. I mean, there's other things we have in our world where it's like, if you screw with this,

that could be very bad. So we take a lot of extra precaution not to let something bad happen with

this over here. But with this sort of stuff, it's kind of like, so here's your reality of how these

things typically work is that until you're actually called on the carpet because something went

sideways, you're not going to fix a broken system. And so I mean, just think about the number of

law enforcement agencies out there that have had to have one, you had to get funded for body

cams, then you have to maintain body cams, you have to train the officers to remember to turn

on the body cams and then keep it. And so what happens is is that people get laks that get lazy

because they go out on hundreds of calls a day or a week. And then the one time they needed it,

they didn't have the reps they needed because the training faltered, the equipment was faltering.

So the reality is, is until it becomes an issue, it won't become an issue. And so, unfortunately,

that's the way it happens a lot of time. And sometimes it's, you know, bad actors and sometimes it's

just, you know, incompetence. Yeah, incompetence. Right. In the system. I always, I tend to edge more

having been in the system. I tend to edge more on the incompetence in the system.

For more than than bad actors on the inside. Because I mean, these cops, cops don't want

shit to go sideways because it'll end their careers. And they got to provide for families.

And they know 100% if they're involved in a case like this and they don't have the body cam,

the first thing they're saying to himself is not, oh, thank God, I don't have the body cam.

They're saying, oh, shit, I don't have the body cam. So it's, that's generally the way it goes.

Yeah, and I think, you know, I think the counter to that would be, you know, it's an incredibly

dangerous job. And I think that everybody would agree that they're, for the amount of danger that

they're really exposed to, they're grossly underpaid, which always leads to that thing where,

you know, if they're going there, they're doing a drug raid and you've got two partners

running into that back closet and they finally find a giant pile of cash and they're looking at one

and they're like, we're making fucking 60 grand a year and we're like, we could get killed any day

we step foot onto the streets with this uniform on. I'm going to give you 10 large and I'm going to

take you out. So I mean, because of the, the structure in terms of how we compensate these people

that are doing this incredibly dangerous job, it almost encourages them. Yeah, maybe step over

the line a bit, which becomes a very, very slippery slope. It could start with, all right, you know,

like no one knows how much cash is in here. No one's going to know 20 grand missing if we each take

a stack and shove it in our vest. So, you know, you're still getting a big pile. It'll all go to the

state and they can use it to buy boats and whatever the fuck they're going to do with it. Or, but

that, that problem becomes is, is once you become corrupt with that one little taste, it then

becomes a very, very slippery slope. And it also, like, the concept of like, I need to rise up

in the ranks, which is typically going to be determined by the amount of closed cases you get

can also encourage, you know what? Like, I'm just going to go ahead and drop this key fob here.

Like, I don't know where I'm out on Avery. Like, do I think that the cops did that whole thing

and put, no, I don't. But do I think that in order to make sure that they got the conviction on

the guy that they were sure had done it? Do I think that they drop that fucking key fob? Yes, I do.

But they had all kinds of other evidence, but that is like the kind of evidence where

okay, you had four searches in that house and nobody saw it and then all of a sudden it appears.

You know, it's strange. So, I think the answer to Tony's question is as much like in the world

of suppression motions, there has to be greater teeth. And they've got to work on that burden

on the defense because how am I supposed to prove intent from a law enforcement agency where I

have zero access to what they're doing? You're asking for an impossible burden to be able to

hurdle because I don't have access. I'm like, okay, Judge, I'll happily. Are you going to allow

me to go in? Can I subpoena all their shit and dig through all their shit? And then I'll find

it for you because short of that, how do you expect me to prove bad intent? Yeah, you're asking

them to police themselves, then, too. Like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just,

there just seems to be far too easy ways to cheat if one wants to. You got to make teeth.

You got to make your teeth to where, all right, you know what, you lost it. Now you lost the case.

I lived in a glass bubble. I was just surrounded by good people. I really was. You know,

I mean, I went to work every day to do the righteous work and I had to get around bosses that were

stupid. I had to get around the organization that was fixated on getting promoted in agendas.

You know, but I was fortunate. I know there's, I did a lot of training with a lot of law enforcement

across the country where I train them on leadership and things like that. So I'm generally the

glasses half full. I know there's bad apples and bad actors out there, but I do see an amazing

amount that actually are doing the right thing that they're not going to see that pile cash

and go for it. I think that's the majority. And yeah, it is. And not even be tempted by it. I mean,

you know, it's like when you see someone go bad and they and they and they see themselves

of wound collecting victim in all these situations and they're saying I did it because I don't get paid

enough or they're using some rationalization excuse to be an ass. You know, the only thing I say

is we'll then quit. Get another job, you know, because the people that serve

join to serve, they're not joining to take. So it is sad when it happens. Like you were a fed,

dude. You know what I mean? Like you're that's a different thing than kind of a low level.

You know what I'm saying? I mean, you get all types. I know. It's like your education level is such

where I love, I love everybody like Rob and Drake becoming law enforcement because you're the guy

one in there. You're the guy because inherently you're a good person. You win in with because I

don't think that people get into law enforcement thinking like, oh, I'm going to go rob drug dealers.

I don't know. It's not a profitable, you know, right. You're going to do for like, it's a dangerous

gambit. I'm talking about it. You know, so like, but I think that what happens, like, well,

let me put this ponderable to you, Rob. And so I ponderable. Say you've got a case where you are

100% absolutely certain that you've got the right guy. However, you're missing that one piece

of evidence that one piece of evidence that a lot, and you are certain of it. There is, it's

unequivocal. You know that you've got the guy, but you're missing that one piece of evidence

that allows you to get in front of a judge and get an arrest warrant. And that temptation,

in terms of, because you're theoretically morality wise, you're doing the right thing because you're

taking a monster off the street. I uncovered it in Gacy. That's what happened in Gacy. They knew

that Gacy had kidnapped Rob Piston most likely killed him, but they knew that he kidnapped him.

It had to have been, and he was the last person to see the kid alive, and the kid is vanishing off

the face of the earth, and he's not a kid that was, you know, running off to California. His

mother was adamant about that. So they knew, but they couldn't, they had the first search of the

house. They couldn't find anything related to Rob Piston. They followed him for 10 days. Gacy's

not a moron. He's not going to kill one. He, because it was an open and notorious tale,

because they didn't have the manpower to do a Sarah Titus tale. So they, he knows that they're

following. He's not going to kill anybody while they're following. So they don't get anything.

I'm in 10 days. In the meantime, Gacy runs into federal court files for a temporary

straining order to stop the 24, seven tale, which he was going to win, because they had been on,

and they had searched his house once, and they'd been following him for 10 days, and they didn't get

the federal courts are going to let you follow somebody in perpetuity. The way that they were,

you know, like where it's opened and in obvious, and they're following him into restaurants,

and they're, you know, they're coming into his house. So they were going to end it. So they were,

they were putting this situation where, for all intents and purposes,

that investigation was going to end, right? Then and there as soon as the judge, the federal judge

granted that TRO, which created a desperate times call for desperate measures situation,

which is how that receipt becomes infused as if it was found in his house in order to get the

second warrant, which is what they got, and then they went in and they found the bodies.

So like, but that's that's that scenario that I'm that I'm talking about where,

where you just know that you've got the guy, but you just don't have the evidence.

Well, and so and so here's where and so here's where I know and I guarantee that's where the

where he is, but here's where I'm going to give the class half full on what guys like me doing

those situations. One, get better. You know, you you own it and you just dig deeper to stay on

on the righteous path because here's here's what good healthy minded people do. You play that

shit forward. You play forward, you know, let's suppose we take that action. When you do something

wrong, when you have a lack of transparency and openness and abiding by the law, it will be found

out, you know, just if you're looking to percentages, it's going to be found out at some point.

And what's going to happen when that happens? You're destroyed. The case is destroyed and the guy's

going to walk. So why do it? Yeah, I mean, so either way, the guy will eventually walk,

either it's by your hand or you see what I mean? So the clear minded people, but that's why,

but that's why you didn't catch that. It took 45 years for me to uncover it. It came from the cops.

I know what I mean. So in that situation, it was literally with with the cops said, Mike

Albrecht is like, hey, you know, because I asked him, like, there has to be something that you've

never told anybody in all the interviews you've done. He said, well, you know, he's like,

there's one thing. He's like, you know, that photo receipt. I'm like, yes, I know that photo

receipt. And then he tells me the story that it really wasn't found in the house that that

load the lieutenant said that they the story was going to be that they found it on the garbage

pull from the curb, which is fair game. You don't need a warrant for that. Like once it hits the

curb, anybody can dig into it. It's still strong evidence as strong as, you know, hey, we found

it in the inside garbage in terms of like, it's clear that the kid was in here because the receipt

from the, you know, from the pharmacy that was in the kid's pocket is in his house and it can only

have gotten there if Rob Pist was there. That's powerful evidence. It's still powerful. So I told

Mike, I'm like, look, man, then Mike, what he said is, Gacy's dead. I don't have to worry

about an appeal. So like he would, but they would, what they did in that case is,

is Cosen's act kept it very, very narrow. He kept it very, very small amount of people that

knew it. It was Cosen's act and I think it was Ron Adams is right. And man, the guys on the street

that we're out doing the work, pounding the pavement, knocking on doors, talking to witnesses,

they had no idea, you know what I mean? And so he insulated them from what was going on with it.

But like, when I, when I broke it, I'm like, how do I handle this? Because it's the greatest

morality play in the history of morality. And it's great. It's a grave in yet. Yeah, it's a

fucking monster. It's like, it's a question. You know, if you had the opportunity to kill Hitler,

knowing what we know, now, how would you do it back there? And so, so in cases like this, you know,

it comes down to, you know, first of all, you have people, you don't have to have 100%

of organization with the righteous mindset. You only need is one in a leadership position to

be able to keep poking people in the righteousness because people want to do the right thing,

but then we tempted to do the, the convenient and easy thing for righteous reason.

In situations like that, you know, we had an expression in the Marine Corps. If you're going to play,

you got to pay. And so, you know, if you're going to put yourself on the line to do something

like that, even know you think it's righteous, do just stand up and be ready. Because when that

shit comes down on you, you got to own it and you might be going jail with them. So, and that's

how I sold it at the end of the day, because it was a cautionary tale because I had a uncle on

who was the lead prosecutor and his reality has had my father asked one question during this

oppression motion, which was, who was the evidence tech that was following you around the day of

the first search? Because I hunted that guy down 45 years later, found him in Colorado. He did not

work with the display police. He was Cook County Sheriff's Office and he was the evidence tech that

they supplied to them because they didn't have a big enough department. So, that guy, no one ever

spoke to, no one ever saw their reports. And when I asked him, I'm like, look, you were the guy

following them around, taking the pictures, keeping the evidence log. If I'm looking at the evidence

log from that day to that search and this photo receipts not there, what does that mean? It means

it wasn't there because I would have photographed it and I would have noted it and I would have

said where we were sending it off to. And so, I knew at that point, and then it becomes that thing,

had my father asked and he had discovered who that guy was, that entire case falls apart.

Everything is free to the poison industry, including the confessions that Casey gave,

all of it goes away and then Bill Conkel is charged with the most horrific task I can think of,

which is to go to these families and say the guys walk and just walked up. You know, like so

that thing that you're talking about Robin, like you need that person in that position,

letting the guys and the gals know that are working on the force, that this is the possible

ramifications if you're so tempted to do so. Step away from it, don't do it because with

Casey, they could have just followed him. And then you got to live with that at the rest of your

life too. You know, it's so much easier. I've made similar calls, not to that kind of extent,

where I played that tape forward. I can have this win for this righteous reason. And I now have

the burden of carrying that for the rest of my life. As opposed to I don't do it, I stick on the

righteous rightful path of doing what's right. And then I just have to carry the burden of I

screwed up. Yeah. I can I can get over I screwed up a lot easier because I can then get

in better tools. I can own it. I can move on. I can teach others not to do that. I mean, so

yeah, it's I think the other part of it too, Robin, is that what I would like to seek is I'm

very close friends with the old Chicago retired Chicago cop who, you know, I met through the

Gacy season who was like, you know, Bill Dorish is a guy that that ultimately was chased out of

this country by Chicago PD because he was a whistleblower. Yeah. You know, and I think that that

cops have to feel like if I see wrong happening, if I see illegal things happening within my

department, I can't be afraid to go to my superiors and rat that guy out for fear of my career or

worse. Yeah. And like if you can establish, I mean, no one wants rats, but no one wants bad cops

because the problem with one bad apple in a in a particular department is it spoils the whole

bunch in terms of the public's perception of a department man, where you could have like 50

great cops and two two assholes in the entire department is tainted because of those two guys.

So I think like, like, and I don't know how you go about that. I don't know that you'd know

way better than I, the mechanics of like giving officers the freedom to say, hey man, you know,

it is 100% leadership. 100% that type. You got to, you got to be able to encourage that

relationship where we actually have that kind of transparency and then trust is built on little

things, you know, whatever you think politically of Rudy Giuliani afterwards, but when he was

actually mayor of New York, he actually conquered the crime in New York by by trying to take the

squeegee guys off the street because when you actually attack things at the at the granular level,

it filters up then that, hey, if they're going to pay attention to something that's so small,

I can count on for the big things. And so you build that trust, you build that trust reservoir

at that small granular level, saying, I got your back on this, I got your back on this, I got

your back on this and then encourage that kind of transparency into agency wise, you know, internally

so that way you can mitigate ship before it reaches that level. And also when you're doing that,

people value the things they're doing every day, they're going to do things the right way, the

proper way. So the chance is something going sideways, investigations going wrong, where they

be in the position to try to cheat the system a little bit, doesn't even come up. That's why it's

leadership, leadership, leadership. 100% man. Mandal bomb, mandal bomb, mandal bomb. You think you can

take me? All right, I just watched that one the other day, sign fell if you're playing along at

home. All right, that's going to wrap up this episode of the program, your thoughts in the

comment section on sub stack and YouTube, we'd love for you to weigh in. Be sure to press subscribe

wherever you're getting podcasts. You don't miss any of our episodes. Go check out Bob's podcast,

defense diaries, and YouTube channel wherever you get podcasts or YouTube, which happens to be

YouTube. So go find them there. Robyn's a new book. It is that right now. It's not all about me.

It is available wherever you get books go and get that right now as well. Until next time

for Robyn for Bob for Todd. I'm Tony brusky. We will talk again real soon.

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