About Germany's AfD and 'Kirkaversary'

0:00Why is it raining Jen? Is it God crying? No, it's God doing us a solid. It's been so hot in Europe and so there's this storm Like it just reminds me of how small Europe is because there's this one storm that's hitting all of us and bringing relief to the entire Continent and I'm thrilled about it. So even though my poor husband when we record he works outside Like 10 seconds before we're supposed to go on the air like the heavens opened up So he's whispering in the back room right now But otherwise like we're stocks like this city needs a good cleaning and we need some less humid air So yeah, it's actually it's a blessing. I will say that's good. Yeah, it's a very it is a blessing and a curse to come from the American perspective on things like that because you know for example our friend Friends Darren and Eva are currently in Japan on vacation and they're like doing a lot

1:01They're like going to a lot of different cities and I was like You can just stay in Tokyo for a week and a half like The American mind does not understand that Tokyo is like all of New England like if like New York City Went to Boston and it was everything in between and it was just one city like that's kind of a Tokyo is like You can you can do a lot inside of there And in the same way it's like Europe people think about it like oh, it's like a bunch of different America's no It's like one portion of America. We also have like a weird thing is Americans where we want to plant as many flags as we can We're like I'm in Europe for a week. I'm here for seven days I will see nine cities and I will go all these nine cities It's like I like that's what I used to do when I first came over and then I was like oh, I'm not even seeing anything I'm I'm seeing like that was the all-embrug time to go to another city now Like it would be a fashion just hang out like in one place for a few days Yeah, I'm staying in one place for three months like I was trying to explain to my mom because I haven't done a lot of museums like I just

2:05What I'm enjoying here is that I have mastered my bike ride to the gym to the point that I can turn my brain off And if I need to get around like I know the system well enough to where I can just really Navigate it based on where the hill is like I'm not checking my maps anymore like I'm getting to know The city I can go into any grocery store and Understand what to do because like there's there's little cubbies if you walk in with a bag You're supposed to put your bag in the cubby like I didn't know this at first like a first day I yelled at for looking like I'm shoplifting So there's just different cultural things I like that I have figured out how to be here and you can't do that in 48 hours like it takes a minute I know where the potholes are Like I'm just having so much fun feeling like I'm a local firm in it and it's a lovely place to do it So now we're just kind of that's kind of worth thinking of our travels from here on Ford as we kind of want to do it in like Three month chunks because the first month you're getting your bearings the second second month is where you're kind of like finding the potholes

3:06And then month three this is what we're in it's like okay now I can turn on my music and just go and not get run over by a bus so it's um Yeah, the three month tours. I think you'll be seeing more of that with the brainies I'm looking forward to being getting to know my house. I mean out of my fucking house too much like I've been traveling I like we went to Atlanta for dragon con brought the baby that was super fun um, but yeah So baby dressed up one day. I mean her costume was she was an adorable two-year-old She was a weapons grade adorable as she like ran up to various characters She really liked the princesses. She loved taking pictures with the princesses And she loved the dinosaurs. So there's a gigantic Godzilla that she got like a million pictures with But the one day she dressed up she dressed up as Minnie Mouse And was she loves Minnie Mouse despite that she has seen no media with Minnie Mouse on it. There's a reason why

4:10Minnie and Mickey are iconography. There's just something that speaks to the child's mind Uh, but she dressed like Minnie Mouse and she was so excited she just kept running up to the mirror And screaming at the top of her lungs And we were joking that that was Minnie Mouse's catchphrase that there's some like steamboat willy-esque animation of Mickey going like boy Minnie we're gonna go up and paint the town red and then just a close-up of Minnie's face going I Captured a nation's heart It didn't you meet your wife at dragon con. This is kind of a nice full circle for you I did meet my wife at dragon con. Yes deep Excelsior true believers look back to issue four um Yeah, that is where we met and we brought our we got married at dragon con and and now we brought our child So it is it is a full stages of life Uh Step by step moment, but it was really really fun and thank you to everybody a bunch of we're not wrong listeners

5:14In fact This was the first time that I've ever been a dragon come where I had to buy my own ticket normally. I've been a guest in the past And uh for reasons that are too dumb to get into here. I was buying a ticket and so the Machines were down That led to these gigantic long lines for registration and so I Think I'm gonna be clever. I wait until later in the evening to wait in line That no relief inside the line is still gigantic So I'm trying to find the end of the line and you know you're fucked when you're trying to find the end of a line And you can't do it. You're just going back back back back back back back then all of a sudden a very very nice Man Says jerry and I'm like hey and so uh uh we get to talk in very nice uh Gentlemen and his husband they live in Charlotte uh, but uh, we're not wrong and px3 up on their television Uh that that that they watch so if you're watching this right now

6:17Thank you very much for letting me skip people in line. We were in line together for about an hour and 45 minutes We got torrentially Rained on we are now the wet weather Spanish storm I excited you that's where it started it started Atlanta and it made its way back across the Atlantic uh to soak Joe briney's work area, but Yeah, no dragon con and absolute blast but boy am I excited to be home which is annoying because I could right now be in Dallas for the Republican midterm convention, which is going to be an absolute Shit show and I've I've already been getting calls from other reporters there who were not credentialed until Monday That's how late everything was nobody got an actual credential until monday and I'm talking about like people that write the influential newsletters that You know are are read by the entire town They do not get credentialed until monday

7:18So it'll be ridiculous. I was gonna ask you about that by the way They don't normally do a midterm convention right? So is does that just mean that they're worried that taleriko might actually take it And so they're doing it in Texas to drum up votes No, this is nationally Trump's gonna speak tonight like so it's gonna be Dallas though, right like like I would They picked Dallas because they think Texas doesn't play otherwise they would have done it in Michigan or Ohio or somewhere else They want the the voters to be animated My suspicion is they picked Dallas because that was the closest place that they could get the venue that they needed for Secret service clearance for the kind of people that they wanted To be there and to lock it down for two days my guesses that logistically they did not have a whole lot of options Considering how late this was put together So I don't know if I would read Tremendously into Dallas these are the taleriko versus paxon although I do think that that they are worried about that that is not in doubt But no there is no midterm convention because

8:21nominally a General convention is for the nomination of the president Like so when we were at the libertarian convention that still operates in the way that an old convention did where Jen was in line with a bunch of people from the mesus caucus that were trying to leave early And that left the mesus caucus short of the votes they needed to get the candidate they wanted that's normally how a convention works in a post uh primary Aversion where everybody where delegates are awarded by primary contest state by state That is kind of a commute to the point where the democrats just abandoned The pretence of like the republicans did theirs at like three o'clock in the afternoon The technical roll call where people are saying the delegates are pledging x y and z And the democrats just made it a music video because it doesn't matter anymore in the way

9:22That it used to so now it's just going to be a convention flavored television show Where a bunch of people are going to talk so if you're ready for the electric charisma of john husted and Ken Paxton then buckle up kids because they're going to rip up the screen with their raw animal magnetism Whoa so glad i'm not there That sounds awful You know who's also not going to be there is a shitload of republican congressman They're just not interested in doing this So apparently they were giving out a bunch of free tickets like they're really afraid this thing is going to be Empty like at first trump was trying to charge congressman 25 grand to be there And now they're just like Just come it's fine Well, I don't know who's going to be there I mean like that's like part of the optics are that you have an arena full of people uh But there's no delegates the the people that are in the arena are delegates There's no delegates to be had so I don't I mean like he can always draw a crowd

10:26He can just say I'm going to be here fill up this auditorium and people will fill up the auditorium especially in texas but Uuh boy, I don't know it would be fun to be at the I have heard tell that the main hotel Is a hilton with a water slide so if somebody gets a picture of Ken paxon and his big fat titties Going down a water slide then I will pay top dollar for it Oh, that's a fun one Justin, do you do you have a over under on paxon versus taleriko in the forthcoming text election If our hand acapping it I would say The line would be Paxed in At a half a point So you bet either over oh yeah, yeah, I mean ultimately I it would take a lot for Uh a Republican to lose texas like if we're just going by fundamentals it would take a lot

11:30Uh, I also think taleriko still hasn't found the way That he is Gonna sell himself to the rest of texas he's got the democrats, but There's more republicans than democrats in texas. So you know, you're gonna need more than that He needs a way to sell himself beyond his base and he's kind of got a black problem taleriko because What's a black problem? Black people don't like him Uh jasmine crocket ran against them and jasmine crocket is refusing to campaign with him Really saying that and saying that she that he doesn't care about black people really Yeah, she's so pissed off like in a tight race. She's not campaigning with it. Wow No, and has explicitly been asked about it on national television and refused She said she was going to campaign for people down ballot

12:31She's never been like her maturity the county commissioner stuff like that Yeah, I don't know what that's supposed to mean the railroad commissioner. Okay. All right Wow, she's come out and said that the democratic party has a problem with black people and like it is It's not great now Is that gonna I don't know. I would still put taleriko at a significant it would be an upset It would be a very very big upset. There's a reason why blue texas is looked at as You know Lucy with the football to democrats like it's always just enticing it up for people to believe Only for it to not happen. Yeah, that's I was doing a show yesterday and like they were all very excited about that I was like hey, it's possible, but I've I've been through this before. I'm not gonna hold my breath on texas I also I've said this before is one of my my well-worn points is that in texas Paxson and taleriko are like almost comical caricatures of texas archetypes. Yeah, Paxson is the bloated

13:41metroplex Toad who is probably cheating on his wife and Has financial problems that he won't disclose and then taleriko is The Soi cuck that you hope your child doesn't turn into when they go to the university of texas at Austin Like these are These are very well-worn archetypes and I think one Has ruled texas politics forever and that is the blowhard asshole from the Dallas Metroplex The other has not been elected statewide and that is taleriko Taleriko is very jesusy though. I could see him pulling it off like he's the one that walks the Jesus walk and I know it's It's making people look at him twice because if you just if you're someone who really believes in the teachings of Jesus and then you look at Ken Paxten you're like

14:41And then you have this other guy who really doesn't seem like he's a bullshit Christian So I think for religious people I could see some crossing over because Ken Paxten is So corrupt and yeah Yeah, he's he's just they have an extraordinarily bad candidate on the right and a very jesusy one on the left Which I don't think is all that common. You know who who really likes Donald Trump though Very religious people in texas they seem to have figured out a way to Come up with a world view that accommodates the adulterous Immoral out into that you know, it was being chosen by the entire brand is Bible villain covered in gold like Yeah, I would disagree with the idea that he is jesusy I think that he is jesusy to people that are not religious Pete to people that are art that are religious he It's it's he's Close enough to the line, but not there and that oftentimes can be a harder rejection than somebody who is just out and out

15:43Obviously not Super religious, you know, he's he's got a lot of stuff on tape About you know god being non binary and like that that kind of stuff that is With that conservative Christian audience if that's who you're looking to flip that's That's more said is god, we all know that So it would if Jim Webb were running would he just like if Jim Webb were texas and he were running as a democrat Do you think it went? I yeah, I Tend to believe like Colin R. Ed was a pretty good candidate football player from Dallas black guy But he wasn't able to overcome he overperformed commonaharis But he was new I think he kind of blinked under the lights When when it got really really big and he had to he got his legs cut out from under him because of the trans Sports stuff. He didn't have a great answer for it and he couldn't buck the party on it. So If he's big burly football player and Ted Cruz is like like I know all the Simpsons lines like

16:48He can still hit you with like you want men and women sports and if you don't have A hard rejection of that then you're going to get attacked on your masculinity there in a way that he should have never taken on water in that perspective Um, well, it doesn't all read a member of congress Yes, yeah, he was such a back venture that I couldn't pull him out of a lineup Like he just wasn't good at getting attention And that ultimately he couldn't He couldn't be effortlessly confident And this is another thing with like Democrats right now is that they have a hard time Doing anything between like I'm spitting with anger like my mouth is frothing And I'm really fucking mad or being like normal. Yeah, like there's no kind of quiet confidence Roy Cooper is a great example of that in North Carolina Like Roy Cooper is running a very good campaign. He's going to dog walk Michael Wattley. He's going to be a senator He is going to flip a seat Uh, but he's a quietly confident guy. I think that is an archetype that could be

17:54Uh, eight especially when it comes to the presidential down the road Anyway Heaten house Edinburgh It's good. It's a lovely day outside the Spanish storm has not hit us. It remains a Protestant this far north Oh, did it was that what that was? I don't know. It's always fucking raining But right now it's not I look out the window and I'm like oh look how look how not Scotland it is outside is very pleasant Um, uh, no, it's very nice this uh, but we're winding down my trip to Scotland. I'm I'm gonna be heading back to DC to do some reason stuff on Sunday, so we're we're towards the tail end of my trip here. Yeah. Oh Well, are you getting everybody to sign your yearbook and uh, you know, it's stay cool Yeah, yeah, I've been able to have some very good community while I've been over here I've seen lots of people had a really good time last night my friend Dickey and I saw Star Trek the voyage home

18:55Which is Jen in my favorite film and we saw that in uh in in theaters and uh Um, uh hung out with my uh pseudo-uncle Arthur yesterday and uh, uh, I've seen Lawrence a few times It lots of you. I've had a very very social time while I've been here Hmm. Good. That's good And I assume the city is recovering from fringe Yes, although I like I'm at the point now where I want fringe to last a week. I don't I've decided I'm I'm tired of fringe I don't like it anymore. It's too much I like it when I like I come here for Scotland and then when the fringe happens It's Scotland with this giant level of New or Times Square just dropped on top of it. So like imagine you're visiting like I don't know Prague or something And then just Times Square dropped on top of you and tons of people milling about also like I'm aware when I'm walking through the uh um The fringy area that I'm missing out on a lot of fun stuff I'm constantly aware that there's fun

19:57happy High energy shit going on that I don't know about and I'm not a part of when they all leave It's just back to hungover scots avoiding rain which is great like I walk around like there's a couple of uh tumble leads that'll go past you and then two guys dress like a bus driver Smoking cigarettes and talking about death and you're like, uh, I'm back. There's I'm not missing out on anything I'm just enjoying the ambiance From Austin Texas. I'm Justin Robert Young from Barcelona, Ithbania I'm Jen Bryne And from Edinburgh, Scotland I'm Andrew Heaton We're not wrong on this edition of the program. We'll be talking about the far right AFD on the march in Deutschland in Germany What that means for Europe As our European contingent fractures finally the balance of power returning to America on Sunday

21:02On this program, but while we're still European We will talk about European politics and then we'll also talk about the Kirk aversary The celebration for many on the online left of the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the reaction To it All that plus your emails Germany's far right alternative for Germany one the September 6th election in Axony on or sorry Saxony on hold with 43.8% of the vote more than double what it got in 2021 Chancellor Friedrich Merses cd you fell to 17.2 AFD took 39 of 83 seats leaving it just short of the 42 needed for a majority forming a government still depends on securing outside support But the result is a breakthrough for candidate Ulrich Sigmund and a rebuke to the governing parties It will test Germany's firewall that is the refusal of other mainstream parties to govern with AFD that now will be

22:11The order of the day at least on some level unless everybody else Bands together Gen Why Has the far right succeeded in Germany Well There's a specific party that is succeeding in Germany So to just like slap far right on them I know that that's the label giving to them But I think if they'll look at what's actually going on with that party They have a leader who's young he's 35 years old. It's kind of hot. He's known as charismatic He's smiling all the time and he has kind of an upbeat message Which is very different from apparently how the other parties have been talking about the country like one other slogans is everything is possible um, and so you've got this charismatic leader a lot of this is going to sound familiar to us americans paired with a Long-held anti-immigration Message um, you know, I lived in Germany in 2003 and even back then the racism against some immigrants was just obvious

23:18Like the way that they would talk about Turks was honestly like shocking to me um, and so this is a party that's been running on limiting the number of non-eo foreigners who are allowed to come to the country They want to do forced deportations. They want to build detention camps Just like we have here in the United States and they want to cut funding for integration programs And so they actually in their platform. I read like they actually have a very interesting platform in that You can go through and they have every single thing they want to do basically bullet pointed I wish our parties would do something Yeah, but it was what do they want to do about this you go to that Line and you can see like we want to do this. That's that's that's that's that's that's it was it was very easy to um To read but they were talking about preventing the extinction of German people and so I think that for Those in Germany who are afraid of the culture being diluted this guy is speaking to that And then there's also something that I think

24:19Got it reminds me so much of our politics in that the economy and it's not just in Germany all over europe people are concerned about their economies They are definitely concerned about energy prices you hear people talking about it all the time It's always in the news and one of the reasons that Germany has high energy prices is that they have a Difficult policy with transitioning off of fossil fuels And so this is the party much like our republicans who want to bring back all the fossil fuels Although they don't want to frack in Germany So they want to burn all the fossil fuels, but they won't allow the fracking on their soil um, but they want to like restart the fossil fuel trade They're saying that the economy is a problem and then you have the ruling party that's like we fix the economy It's great and if you don't think it as then like you're dumb which is very much what the bin administration was trying to do to ask um You're also seeing that the war next door. I mean we're talking about a state that's in eastern Germany And so they tend to be more Russian friendly So there's a lot of talk of kicking out the Ukrainian refugees taking away their refugee status and trying to get them out of the country

25:26I was in Poland during the refugee crisis. So it is a different country obviously But I can tell you with the number of refugees that were coming in Warsaw didn't feel like Warsaw like most people that we saw wandering around were Ukrainian And so there is a lot of People that are like it's been four years now. We want these Ukrainians out of here and I'm just explaining. I don't agree with this But this is What this party is speaking to it's the Germans that want them to be German and they want to get all these foreigners out Um, they also this is another phrase that blew me away when it comes to education They said they wanted to end the perpetuation of a guilt complex over the whole Nazi thing and they wanted to change the curricula accordingly and So you're just seeing this Party that is running on nationalism. They're running on German pride. They're running on You know, we should not be ashamed to be to be Germans We did a bad thing a long time ago, but we are Germans. We're going to be proud about it And we'll just kind of scrub that history a little bit and stop talking about it so much

26:30Um, there's also an east versus west Germany thing that I think if people haven't spent a lot of time there Don't really realize that that's a real dividing line kind of like red versus blue in America West Germany is more like Hate this term but globalist like they're more welcoming to our corporations and stuff like that and then there's east Germany that Is spoken about as if it's the backwards one like it's the one that was kind of Though the Soviet ones the ones with the concrete buildings that's the side you don't need to visit like there is an arrogance to that And I think the people in east Germany are reacting to being treated that way much in the way of you know People being told that they live in flyover states is insulting There's an insult that is happening in east Germany And so this party is speaking to the pride of being German in general the pride of being east German in general And I also just the demographics of this state. It's a very old area that has had a lot of population loss They're generally uneducated and so I think that these messages

27:31Much like how they worked with maga are working in this part of the country that You know for better or worse want to feel German pride So that's that's my analysis of why they were successful Before we go to heaten of the things that you read What made the most sense that it was working what made the most sense to you that that that it would resonate With just a general audience the immigration stuff I mean this is what this party is known for and especially speaking someone who's been a Taurus and Barcelona I've spent a lot of time in Europe. There is a You know the EU is relatively young 25 years ago. They didn't have this integration And so now like you can be a citizen of Poland or Hungary or Spain or whatever and go and just live in Germany And so there there is a dilution of the German culture that is a real thing and anyone who tries to deny that

28:32um It's annoying for the people that are proud of the German heritage They want the people that live in Germany to speak German and so I think that this is a party that is speaking to that and it's I guess for me like not only reading the platform But from my own experience in Germany just knowing how proud they are of their customs and their language and How badly they want to keep it and that you have this federal EU system That is not only allowing people within the EU like there was one Part of their platform when they were talking about welfare state nomads And so this was about people within the EU going from countries that don't have as generalists of a welfare system Coming to Germany to take their benefits and this party is saying we want to get these people to go back to their home countries Like you're we're not your you know, we're not your safety net and I think that Even though there's some xenophobia and obviously like some nationalism mixed in there that is just tasteful You can see where they're coming from and then when you listen to the actual policies that they have

29:33You know, this is why I don't like labeling them. It's just like far right and like stick that stamp on them Because like when you go through their actual policies like for example their anti-abortion But their way of dealing it with it isn't making abortion completely illegal from like you know, Zygote on forward They want to have funding for children So they talk about giving free lunches to kids they talk about funding sports for all children under the age of 18 When you talk about the economy They want to stop the privatization of their hospitals. They want to stop slums the subsidies for global corporations So that their small businesses can thrive and it so it's you look at the actual platform and some of their specifics like I'm obviously against their idea of like let's just burn off all the fossil fuels because we can't solve a global problem here So fuck it like there's things about them and even their immigration stuff like I don't agree with it But when you look at it and you just look at the details of it If you're someone who is a proud German who wants to keep your heritage who wants to At least acknowledge the mass migration that is legal and illegal in Germany

30:37You can see why this message coming from someone who is young who Isn't You know a disgusting creepy 80 year old orange hair, you know like the messenger is this charismatic young dude um I think you can see the appeal of it, but especially the immigration part like that was the part where I was like, you know It makes me uncomfortable hearing Germans talking about opening deportation camps and shit But at the same time knowing that the struggles that they've had inside of that country since the EU became a thing Someone was going to speak to it and it was the AFD that decided to just kind of Stop beating around the bush and just say the thing and so they're saying the thing and people are appreciating the honesty of them Of the the message, you know, they're not saying They're not beating around the bush like I said they want nasty portations They want to stick these people in detention camps. They want to stop the refugee program like they're not They're not hiding that they want to do this And I think there's a lot of Germans that want to do this too, but they're just afraid to say it and AFD's not afraid of this

31:40I He didn't The AFD working Yeah, I think there's a I don't disagree with that analysis. I'll put a little bit of a spin on it I think it's two things. There's approximate cause and there's a deep background cause the proximate causes immigration That's that's the main reason that's the main reason that the AFD is doing well It's it's why they're picking up seats By by my reading right now 20% of the German population is immigrant That's huge one out of five people in Germany or immigrant. That's really big like that's that's a thing And of them about a third are EU member states like Slovenia or Poland about a third of them are non-EU Europeans like Albanians or maybe Turks if they're from from the European side and then a third of them are non-European So a fair amount of them are not part of the the general central European family and There have been all sorts of

32:40complications around that it was very expensive when Angela Merkel brought in a number of immigrants back in 2015 It's become a very large amount of people I hasten to add the the amount of net migration going into Germany has been declining the last few years So the the problem that they're identifying is at least going the right direction from their perspective but All the same one about one about out of every five people is a very large amount of immigrants to come in There's economic complications to that in that as Jen points out they are not for the AFD is not for slashing the welfare state They would like to ostensibly build it up more, but they don't have the workers to do it. So People like Mertz go look we need we need immigrants to come in here because we need laborers We need people paying into the tax base The AFD is pushing against that and I think what they're Answering on a deeper level is Not so much the question of whether or not we are proud to be German, but what constitutes being German

33:43I think that that's actually the the relevant issue for why they are there So in the United States, I think for most people this is kind of a nonsensical question If you talk about it ethnically or even culturally to some extent we've always been at immigrant nation You can come in you can assimilate We you join the United States legally and we go that's great like what kind of food you have awesome We're gonna steal that we're gonna improve it. We're gonna fry it. It'll become part of the American palette And so long as you like the Constitution and you learn English We're good We're fine. It doesn't you can be whatever you want there is no there's no real American thing and it's a moving target and It's not ethnically related you get into Europe though and that question is a lot more open to debate like Poland is like what 96% Polish Slovenia is like 98% Slovenian hungry is very very Hungarian part of why The AFD and Germany are concerned about immigration is that Hungary refused to allow people to stay in Hungary that we're coming over from refugees They ended up going to Germany So

34:43Hungary's very very Hungarian and so I think that the the question that they're answering is they're saying that The German identity is not a social construct and the way that the American identity is that it actually is an Ethno nationalist state that to be German is to have an ethnic and cultural heritage Independent of I live in Berlin and and I I pay into the tax base. It's much less of a civic worldview and more of an Ethno nationalist worldview and I think that that's probably something that's been squelched to debate in Germany for A number of years since World War II for very obvious reasons because None of us on the outside like it when Germans start talking about ethno nationalism because last time they did it it went off the rails But it's I think a relevant conversation to have in a European context of you know is Slovenia just an area that happens to have a lot of ethnic Slovenians in it But it would be totally fine if one out of five people there were from Bulgaria or somewhere else because this what's going on in Germany right now

35:44So I think that that is why they're there because there are a number of people that that want to put breaks onto the changing Demography of Germany They they worry about what will happen when One-fifth of the population has become German citizens at some point and are voting and changing the nature of the culture And they would like the the German culture to be People that are our Germans however you wanted to find it So I think that that is why they are they're doing well I think that this is also going to be is I've mentioned previously on the program the big big point in Geopolitics from now on this is what's also going on in France This is as Jen pointed out what's going on in the United States. This is the new flashpoint. Do you want immigration trade and multilateral treaties or do you want Independent nation states maybe ethno nationalism protectionism and unilateralism and this this is kind of the vanguard going on in Europe right now Fast forward 10 years is the EU in trouble is it is is this an existential question

36:49About the EU I don't think so and that's why I brought up that the state that this election happened in is an older state Because I think that the young people like the freedom of movement I think the young people are less afraid of people that speak different languages because the lot the young people I know around here they speak fucking four languages. It's so impressive And so they're not that nervous about their language going away They see the benefits of them being able to get a job in a different country Where the older people are the ones that are like I've had this house my family is at this house I've never leaving. Why is my neighbor speaking a different like like it is an older thing I see the younger generation embracing the EU and I think that if the young people are for it I think that's what's going to keep it around But there's a lot of resistance from the older generation and I understand that too You know they this is a lot of change in a short amount of time and so that's why I felt that that stat was Was relevant because I just feel like there's a pushback from the From the boomies Yeah, I I wonder about that because you can have relaxed

37:53Employment rules or freedom of movement in a way that does not necessitate That you are superseding some of your governmental control to a super governmental structure in Brussels Heaten do you think that this is an existential question about the EU No, I don't Like like the the big conversation we've been having in Europe the last few years regarding this kind of stuff has been with Marie Le Pen in France and They started out euro skeptic and they've kind of calmed down I think Marie Le Pen has decided that it's just not really economically feasible for France to want to withdraw from the European Union So the conversation has focused more on How they're going to fit into it now with Germany I defer to Jen on this because I've not read their policy proposal nor have I lived over there But I think the AFD is euro skeptic right like they're not in favor of of doing their Immaculately reforming and or leaving the EU right So nowhere in their platform did I say they wanted to I see that they wanted to leave the EU

38:57But they specifically like because I think you gave a really good stat and I'm glad you looked it up Andrew because There's different kinds of immigration like you said like it's only a third of the migration That's happening within the EU so what I'm seeing in the AFD platform is Get out the Turks get out the Syrians get out the Ukrainians like get out the non EU people They want to shut off pretty much all immigration from anything that isn't the EU and they absolutely want to end any kind of asylum program in Germany So they really weren't focused on stopping the EU they wanted some kind of Um, and it wasn't very clear to me how they wanted to do this the only part where I saw they had an issue with the EU Immigration was for the people that they called a welfare state nomads And I don't know how exactly they would make those people return to their countries But I feel like based on what I read in their platform If they could stop the two thirds of the migration that is not the EU I think they'd be pretty happy But I didn't see any kind of like Brexit vibe just from them. I think they just kind of accepted the EU as a thing

40:01That sounds right to me. They strike me as euro skeptic, but not what would it be Deweyksit I've heard things for deweyksit yet No, that sounds right to me like like when I talk to British people I mean this is a very big topic in Britain is the nature of immigration And it's interesting like when I first started coming over here a few years ago The people that didn't like immigrants um were very worried about polls They didn't like that the polls were coming over here to work Uh, and now they're like Do you remember when the polls come here? I have such good people members of the European Union Christian They would walk they would you know look like us And then they usually go home And so they they they liked that bit right? I suspect it's probably pretty similar as you point out Jen where if they're talking about People from you know from Austria coming into Germany that doesn't really bother them There's only my French people coming into Germany probably don't bother my I suspect that the the welfare benefits going to outsiders does Which seems to me something you probably could change like the the EU typically doesn't Micro manage the internal policies of countries what it does is it sets a benchmark like it's

41:04You have to have universal health care, but we don't care how you do it just let us know right So I to my knowledge there is no EU Edict that says you have to let everybody in your country have access to welfare equally I'm I'm unaware of any provision in it. So um, I suppose that would be something that you could do in the German state would just be look We're only giving like we'll give the emergency medical care to everybody But everybody else like you you don't get recourse to food stamps or housing allocations or something unless you've been a German resident for 10 years or something Like that. I suspect that that's more of where they're going to go. I would be surprised if Germany wanted to leave the EU altogether I think most of the big big members of the EU are having fights about immigration But not what not whether or not they want to remain in a common market with each other Yeah, I wish I knew more about the EU structure because I do think that When I when I peer in on these European political discussions The The line between what is very popular a common market and freedom of movement and employment

42:16Versus like what is unpopular Brussels says this and now we have to do it Like that that seems to be the the the the the the golf like yeah They've got I think they've got two problems that the EU has to Is constantly dealing with one the so-called democratic deficit So the way the European Union operates is Imagine that in the United States Our Congress did not write legislation legislation was written by the congressional research service and It's difficult to get into the congressional research service. It's kind of like joining the state department You've got to speak multiple languages. You're highly educated. You take a very difficult test And once you're in your part of the congressional research service the European Commission and you write the legislation That legislation is then handed to various democratic bodies to vote on but there's no democratic process to write legislation And as a result a lot of people resent that the democratic process comes in where it goes to

43:18Okay, there's the council of Europe and the European council I always get them confused for obvious fucking reasons But the the two relevant bodies are the European Parliament and the European Council The Parliament I believe at this point now has powers of the purse when I was over here at Doddott It had literally no powers whatsoever the European Parliament was only a talk shop. It couldn't do anything I think now it passes the budget and that's that's what it can actually do I don't think it can do anything else the the laws that are passed by the European Union as I recall It's sort of like imagine that once the congressional research service has written legislation that we're going to debate on having in America now every governor sends their secretary of state to go vote on it And that's kind of the means by which they put in these European laws So it's it's much more removed in terms of actual democratic process The other issue that they've got a problem with is they've got individual piecemeal immigration that affects everybody So imagine if in the United States we have a common

44:20Common immigration scheme as we do now you don't need papers to go from Kansas to Texas You don't need papers to go from California to Massachusetts However Every state in the union has its own immigration program and its own immigration enforcement That would create a very big problem wouldn't it like Texas might not have the same desire for immigrants as New Hampshire or California California and Texas might have very different ideas of what an ideal amount of immigrants is But once the immigrants come into the country They can go wherever they want and so that's where a lot of these A lot of these stress points happened with Europeans we saw this most recently between Spain and Italy because Spain had the Run of people down in their their their African Hold out Even though it wasn't technically in the Changan agreement, but sort of was emblematic of the overall problem Italy tried to knock them out of it I could see Changan may be getting severely tweaked or severely modified because like again, right like it's a weird way to run it

45:21They don't have a unified European immigration policy. They have national immigration policies But once somebody's in we all have to abide by people coming across our border, which is going to create now It's just going to create problems Yeah You know, it's always interesting. I'll I'll I'll take it to an American media perspective In general, I think covering international stories is hard Especially when you were in a language deficit especially when you are dealing with regional Issues that might not cleanly translate some do some don't some are more specific and local others are are not It is Frustrating that we often only get and we saw this with Georgia Maloney in Italy too That whenever anybody on a more conservative side it immediately goes to World War two it immediately goes to like

46:26Hitler and Mussolini and this and the other where now Georgia Maloney. I think he's like the longest serving Had a state in in your and was celebrated as an anti-Trump lady here about a year ago because Trump I don't know what Trump tweeted something about how the Prime Minister loved him and she had a video on tech talk about how he was an asshole And now she's great because she's anti-Trump Yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's so transactional it Any kind of sense of education that to to better understand where these things are So I'm very grateful that we have an opportunity to discuss them here on a level that isn't just like This party won the Nazis are back Which is kind of where the the bumper sticker has kind of boiled down to at least in watching the coverage from my perspective here In the states Can I can I make one more prediction? So when I was getting my master's degree I got it an international and European politics. I usually just say international politics because it was fucking ridiculous for me to get a degree in international and European politics

47:31But at one point in time I was knee deep in this stuff and was like could have could have rattled off all the EU institutions and branches and so forth One of the things that I was struck by when I was learning about the various EU institutions was they are On in my read at the time were much more focused around consensus rather than And so like they were they would be describing some mechanism in the parliament of We all have to do this or the thing doesn't get passed and I would go well What happens when a country doesn't like whatever's happening? So they just refuse to vote on it to make it not get passed and they were like well that wouldn't happen because we all want what's best And I was like oh interesting you okay So my country's gone way past wherever you are like we're like like we'll play dirty with parliamentary tactics And at the time it looked to me like they they were not playing dirty. I don't know maybe I miss reddit or maybe they just haven't figured that out yet But it's some point I could see that happening Yeah

48:32So do you think that there is the there's a firewall here Jen That that because they had a favorable electorate that the AFD was moving on or do you think that this might be the side of things to come for Doichland We'll have to see because like I'm not sure if we realize that Germany has different states So this is like a thing happening in the Meezy and uh and Making it seem like it's gonna happen all over Germany like we just don't know yet This was one election in one far Eastern German state So we'll have to see there's also opposition parties that like hate these people and have decided that they're going to work together To stop this party from gaining power. So we'll have to see how the opposition decides to put their Put their differences aside in order to fight this group and um Yeah, I don't know if this is a sign of things to come. We'll see. I just I don't know

49:32Uh, Justin and I should a question yes that firewall is gonna break and there and in France as well The reason for that is because the new Coalitional break is between the pro-immigrant people and the anti-immigrant people It's no longer between do you want a big welfare state or not? Jen pointed out that the uh Rightly the people keep calling this a far right party and at the same time they want more welfare benefits Now that doesn't stack up traditionally and how we understand left wing right wing But it does if we look at it is left wing yay emigrant right wing boo emigrant which is the new battle line And the idea that you're going to be able to have these multi-polar democracies or excuse me multi-party democracies in europe that can effectively govern and operate while isolating the anti-immigrant party like it would it would it would be like saying um none of the None of the various groups which compose the republican party could uh would would agree to work with maga or something like that Like eventually it's just gonna happen

50:34So whether it's good or not. I won't get into that But yeah, I think it's fairly inevitable that that's eventually gonna break through the firewall and it'll it'll They'll have multi multi-party governing coalitions with them or blipan or somebody else Yeah, maybe but I just there's more than one issue here like their Economic policies especially their climate policies like especially after the hottest summer on record like people are very concerned about this in a way that they're just not in the united states for whatever reason um the fact that this party is very openly like we want to burn all the fossil fuels turn on the coal plants turn on the fossil We want to trade with russia like there's more to it than immigration So that's why I think that some of the opposition parties are still going to be really motivated To ice them out because they have other policies that are considered Especially dangerous and especially the climate ones like People here are worried it for our species and so they're seeing this as an existential danger in other ways than just immigration, which is why I'm kind of like I

51:35Like to hear the way that they brand this as a far right truly dangerous party There's a lot of reasons to that so um Yeah, I'm gonna put a big fat question mark on that. I'm gonna be a I coward here um But I could I could see them Remaining sideline especially if they do some crazy things in that and that state I think it's I think it's I think that um stuff like uh fossil fuels and welfare state is gonna be about how gun control and second amendments were in the 90s Where like you you could be a democrat that was very much pro-gun Or you could be a handful of Republicans that were in favor of gun control It would it would you know not necessarily map on or correlate completely with a relevant party But it was a secondary consideration to the main thing that broke between the two coalitions and I do think the fulcrum point is immigration Well, I mean the exit polls said that the economy was by far the number one issue when people are voting in this last election

52:39So immigration came in third So and that was amongst all voters So it wasn't just AFD. I think you're right that most AFV people are really fired up about immigration But the voting populist is a whole they're really looking at the economy more than anything else Somebody write in with the German translation of its the economy stupid Because as it turns out it's always true patreon.com slash wear not wrongs where you need to go if you want to get a bonus episode of this show and friends We got a real conversion factory for you if you've been on the fets about whether or not to become a patron of this show Let me tell you this sports judge he is back He doesn't know shit about ass when it comes to any of this But he's going to look at it from a prudent legal perspective the son of a judge Andrew heaton will tell us about the southeastern conferences desire to kick out Louisiana state university for attempting to put pro players

53:43on their roster Heaton have you done your reading on this or you prepared to make a ruling Uh, I it's not as full as the last time, but I have done a reading and I'm ready to make a ruling All right, okay, you're gonna have to subscribe if you want the bonus episode Head on over there His neutrality on sports is actually quite refreshing like I know it's great. I'll tighten this it this should be his whole gimmick just no it just and I'm really glad that you you brought them like oh another one for sports week when I've Eventually do it great Exactly, but then he'll learn stuff and then it'll be ruined. I still care though. I I'm not I'm not gonna be like oh god I've suddenly I care about ls u versus the browns Well, I don't give a shit. That's that's why like Jan if we forced you to watch four star Trek movies Yeah, exactly about star Trek, right like you would be able to do a book report, but yeah, yeah, I Yeah, no my friends have already proved that wrong because you would think that the Lord of the Rings that when you sit me down

54:47And I take my eyes open and make me watch the Lord of the Rings that I would be in hell, but I am so into it Like I want to go to New Zealand and like go to hell's deep and shit. So it's like I I can turn and I think he can turn to Oh, hey, let's hope. Let's hope patreon.com slash we're not wrong So tempertent marks the one year anniversary as we are Uh, no as this comes out September 10th will mark the one year anniversary since Charlie Kirk Was killed at Utah Valley University Online for some the anniversary is being turned into the Kirk aversary Countdown memes mock holiday language and jokes about his death have abounded A dedicated website displays a birthday cake-styled anniversary banner and a running timer a discussion on Reddit calls the preceding day Kirk Miss Eve Some influencers are explicitly celebrating the anniversary which of course has promoted backlash from Kirk

55:50supporters In fact, one of our listeners wrote the following they are a student at Utah Valley University Quote I just found out that the canvas will be closed on Thursday the 10th the one year anniversary of the shooting My understanding is that there were desires from Kirk supporters to hold a rally or vigil And detractors to hold a protest or to disrupt proceeding so out of an abundance of caution administrators decided to just cancel all classes On Thursday Mr. Andrew Heaton are you celebrating the Kirk aversary No, I don't think so It is a sad event and I'm sorry that he was murdered But I probably wouldn't have remembered the date and would not be adjusting my calendar accordingly unless you'd brought it up So I'm again, it is a tragedy. It is very sad It is not something that is huge in my personal life and therefore unlikely to appear on the calendar so far as the Kirk aversary goes

56:51For all of these other people I think that it is massively overstated Like the the article that you you sent us That brought up the you know, Halleuxly awful woman that wanted to talk about how she was glad that That Charlie Kirk was dead or something to that effect that the thing is You don't have to go very far on the internet to find shitheads There's plenty of shitheads on the internet like it's it's not as if you're not going to get a shithead on any given topic Like you look at The Republican Party the Democratic Party they both have about 70 million people on them 70 million people you're going to get some shitheads in there and so I I suspect that the Media talking points surrounding this are really more of a way of Highlighting bad actors in the camp you don't like in order to make them emblematic of the camp You don't like so we can turn all of this once again into a cataclysmic battle Be team team good people and team evil people So I don't really buy it I think most people think it was bad that he was shot

57:53I think most people Republican and Democrat think that it was bad that political violence occurred And I think the people that are allegedly celebrating it are probably a fairly insignificant minority that are being taken out of context It's bad for the record. It's in very poor taste They deserve your I don't think I would go so far as they were doing in the article of mentioning the place she works at multiple times to try to get people to call and to get her fired I do find it kind of weird that the conservatives are at least in that particular article edging into Into cancellation territory, which is what happened last time as well But overall though my my main thing is this I think that most people in the Republican the Democratic Party and independence are sad that a man was killed Think it's bad that political violence precipitated it and are against it And I think that the people that are in other camps are Fractional and not really emblematic of it and for everybody at home It's better to try to picture in your head what the average Republican or average Democrat is like rather than the most vile

58:58Shitbags you can dredge up and if that is a struggle for you I would encourage you to think of the top 10% of people in your mind when picturing the other party Pick this picture the smartest Democrat or smartest Republican you know and it'll be easier for you to navigate your interpersonal relationships when discussing either team If we can abstract this from a left and right or Republican Democrat discourse the the credit thread that I included with this which was celebrating Kirkmas Eve You know, it had 3000 upvotes on reddit. It was it was not insignificant for an online community um There is a section of people that You know viewed this in a in a you know, they're viewing this in a celebratory way because they really really really didn't like Charlie Kirk of we're just to look at it from the point of view of an online subculture what does it say? I

1:00:00Think that the internet is full of bitter shitty online subcultures of very frustrated people that want to claw back a sense of status by saying mean things on the internet and My position on those people who I've been fucking interacting with my entire god damn professional life Is the same as it's always been the good part of me recognizes that there is some real suffering going on and that that suffering manifest as cruelty and the shitty part of me thinks finally just eat a bullet. I hate you fucking people I've been getting screamed at him since what 2009 Um, so that's that's about where I'm at in terms of those, but I think there's a lot of very angry Suffering people that that translated into cruelty online You know Jen what make you of the Kirk adversary? so I Can't say this was like a pivotal moment in my life, but I think we all remember that I had a pretty strong reaction to it

1:01:06Uh, we heard about it on the air. Yeah. Yeah found out about it on the air and it was more you and I saw The actual assassination, you know, like clips the video clips. Yeah. Yeah I mean we saw it within said we weren't looking for it. It was all over Twitter. It just happened And I had that picture running over and over and in my head to the point that I couldn't sleep and like it was I had a PTSD like experience because Charlie Kirk while I didn't like him and before he died I didn't know much about him other than the few things I heard him say at the RNC which is when I heard enough to be like Oh, yeah, you suck on leaving um But the last time I saw him he was underneath the white tent He looked like he did that day. He was a human being. It is similar job to us and he got killed um, so for me He was just he was person and what I'm seeing with the Kirk adversary is that it's the same thing that disturbed me so much a year ago is that We are cartoon characters to these people. We're not real. Charlie isn't real to them. So it's like

1:02:11You're not celebrating an actual person getting shot in the neck and bleeding out in front of a bunch of traumatized college students No, that was a show. Like that's not real. That's now something that you get to um It was it was entertainment for you all we are is entertainment for these people So to see that there were thousands because that's what I noticed too I clicked on the reddit and just saw how many people were commenting that and I read enough of the comments to be like Nothing's changed in this last year um And so yeah, I just I can't help but see it from the same selfish perspective that I had it last year like even just being reminded that the um anniversary is tomorrow I feel like I'm still disturbed at the way People treat people that do media as if they're not people and that it continues with Charlie Kirk Even after we got to know his wife even though she's not great, but like she's a person

1:03:13This has got to be a really painful time for her so to see people celebrating it like of course she's upset I think a lot of people are doing this to like own the conservatives You know to like get them mad and to start the fights because this is all just fucking fun for them. It's all WWE and so um Yeah, I'm just disturbed all over again. It's it's disgusting and it's anyone who thinks that they're somehow fighting for the left by behaving like this like You're making people like me who get associated with um with lefties like feel Dirty and embarrassed because this is dehumanization, which is something that lefties say like you know You want to humanize everyone, you know Palestinians are human and we're all about everyone being human and yet you'll celebrate Charlie Kirk's death like it's It's revolting and I hate it and um The only thing that I can say that's positive about it is that if you hadn't told me about this It hadn't shown up in my algorithm. I was already my emails already like I did not know about this until today

1:04:16So I don't think it's that widespread but it's It's disappointing and it it reminds me once again That even though there are beautiful wonderful supporters that this job has brought into my life I do think that we are wise to have a healthy amount of separation between us and the audience Because so many of them see us as just Entertainment figures two things one I'll fight you you know where I am audience come come at me. I'll take every fucking one of you come to the bar I'll say I'm a hundred dollar bills on the counter if you can lick me and a fight it's yours. You piece is a shit the other thing I'll say Is just and I missed the reddit bit apologies. I didn't read that bit. I missed that one. That was a blind spot on mine I'm just scanning it as you guys are talking The reddit stuff that you're referring to Strikes me on first glance as jokes that are in poor taste Which I would say is different than like an exegesis on its good that Charlie Kirk was shot A joke that is done in poor taste does not necessarily mean that they are

1:05:20Celebrating the guy's death. It means that they're they're telling a a crashed joke and While it isn't poor taste. It doesn't it doesn't strike me as as bad as we were first discussing Like the video of the lady that was on there was like like openly glad that Charlie Kirk was dead and I thought that's what we were talking about this strikes me as people that are I read that in the reddit post. Yeah, we are Everybody can have their own point of view on it I would say that based on maybe I've just We just skimmed it but it was mostly like happy Kirk aversary hasn't been a year-all already right like Again, this is in poor taste, but like how is this different than a 9-11 joke right after 9-11 came out Like that that's kind of what it strikes me as based on what I read unless there's people saying I'm glad to be shot I would I would say if you scroll through that Comment there's a few people that start push to that push back and say like why are we doing this?

1:06:23This is let's just let it go and the reaction is Vosiferous like Charlie Kirk was a piece of shit who killed people by what he said and they deserve it And yada yada yada like I do think there's two things that are at play here number one Very defensive irony There is a reaction to the deification of Charlie Kirk That people are are reacting to because they did find him to be a two-dimensional villain that existed solely in their Instagram Reels or tiktok Reels or wherever like you got to know who Charlie Kirk was or on YouTube That he was a bad person that had bad opinions that had an actual harm on society He is part of the reason why Donald Trump is President and so therefore anything that you believe is bad about Donald Trump you need to

1:07:25Pin on Charlie Kirk and so his death Whether or not you out and out believe it was justified and I do think that there are more people then We would be comfortable with Believe that it was justified In the same way the people believe that the health care CEO deserved to be shot by Luigi We we do have a budding assassination culture in in our in our worldview There is also the reaction to well you believing that he is some saint is disgusting and that ironically We can now celebrate our own version of this thing to that point. I would say You know there's been a lot of dialogue. We have kept it off the show But Hassan Piker is a twitch streamer a very popular progressive twitch streamer who has made more of an effort to be a part of electoral politics This cycle specifically with Abdul al-Sahead in Michigan

1:08:29Abdul al-Sahead Went out of his way and did events with the son piker You know tapped into his audience And there's a very dedicated audience for his son so much so that there was a live show with him and a bunch of other Progressive personalities and one of the pieces of entertainment at the live show was Hassan karaoke singing a Song in tribute of Charlie Kirk that people have mocked online like That is something that is I'm going to put it in the bucket of irony can you believe that our enemies are so emotionally invested in this? Isn't that funny? I think it borders on the line of assassination culture and considering Hassan Piker was supposed to debate Charlie Kirk like a week after The the assassination and Hassan was shaken up by the news. I think that it is

1:09:33Interesting that he has You know fed into this audience service of you know, ha ha ha isn't it funny that people think that this is said It's It is something to pay attention to. I do think that it says something about our our society that The death of people we don't like Is justified because of the math we've done in our own heads about the harm They have done by way of speech or by their jobs like that is something that I do think happens More often in a world of increasingly shattered online subcultures that don't have connection To other subcultures that are down the road. It's very easy to think of somebody as worthy of death If you don't have a lot of connection to anybody that Care about this person or it's very easy to demonize so so I yeah

1:10:34I've got some cognitive dissonance on this. Maybe you guys can help me unpack this I very much agree that That you shouldn't dehumanize people. I'm with you very much on that gen like something that stuck in my crawl when I was in Texas is that my otherwise very lovely liberal friends that would Kind of word police you would just flat out make cripple jokes about Greg Abbott Like totally fine to make fun of that guy for being in a wheelchair because Speaking of he's a republican. Yeah, he's a republican. He's he's renounced all recourse to basic decency And you do not like that then I feel that way anywhere like like I Trump would be a good example of the kind of phenomenon I'm talking about of I'm not going to be decent to people I don't like it. I think we should be decent to people publicly Publicly subit though, right? So like this is where I get the cognitive dissonance I make inappropriate jokes all the time with my friends behind closed doors like all the time Like with you all right, and so that's the only reason I have a little bit of

1:11:35What are you talking about Justin and Jen are angels? Definitely they've never done blackface for sure But no When I when I'm hanging out with my fridge innings or when I'm when I'm behind closed doors at reason I say inappropriate shit all the time and it's partly because I'm getting a rise out of him And I'm I'm not making an ex-agit like I don't know like there's also a lot of stuff that would be wildly inappropriate that I make jokes about now Like and the last video I did for reason I joked about killing Jimmy Hoffa killing France Ferdinand and also the The blimp exploding the the Hindenburg right Hindenburg like no That stuff would have been okay like a year after it happened, but I'm doing it now because I don't have any connection to it Like I don't know that's what I'm trying to sort out of my head is I there's a part of me as a comedian that wants to stick up for the An ability of people to do inappropriate jokes and have that perhaps be something different than then assassination culture I think you're giving him too much benefit of the doubt that these are jokes

1:12:38Which I'm saying because there was so much celebration when he actually died like there was that was a real thing And we talked about it on this show I mean it had me deeply disturbed and there were so many other Producers that felt that they need to say something online to be like, you know, this is horrible stop doing it stop sending me that stuff so When I look at it a year later, it just feels like a continuation of that because like I'm not gonna say that I celebrate the death, but like we just had a death of a congressman or a senator Lindsey Graham who I think is a horrible human being has the blood of millions on his hands and it took his death to get him out of power It's not something I celebrate But on the anniversaries of his death, I'm just gonna shut the fuck up So it's like I didn't celebrate then I'm not gonna celebrate a year from now. These aren't joky jokes like I just I don't know I think you're just I don't think it's a joke. Hey, you know, and Charlie I think this is one of my blind spots for real I try really really hard to give everybody a good faith argument and it does mean that it's difficult for me to suspend that at times and go

1:13:41Okay, the the good faith argument is now over. I do think this is one of my blind spots Now let me let me speak for the youth here because I My m in touch with Gen. C just kidding. I'm not but I do think that there is there is something to us being old people In or me being old people when I'm like, oh, I can't believe that you would say all this And this is a sign that you have a greater dehumanization when the one thing that has changed a lot is that people Just live more their lives online and so maybe the jokes that I make or the commentary that I make privately now is something that like People just make publicly or like that that It it's private to them if they're on this reddit forum and then some Asshole directs his AI robot to find information on the Kirk adversary and next thing, you know Those 3000 upvotes are that something that we're talking about like its front page news when it was not Made in the spirit of doing that

1:14:43So I do think there is an element that does exist of Things that would be private are now public and I have made jokes in the intervening year with people Black humor about like you know counting or not counting something which was the last thing the Charlie Kirk said before he got shot He was debating Gun violence and he was he was saying Counting or not counting gang violence or something like that Uh, I've made those jokes with people that I feel it was appropriate to make the joke with In you know reading the room quote-unquote I would not say that out loud But then again, I am probably more on the disturb side of everybody's reaction to that than on the super Cool about it side You know We were gonna talk about and we wound up not doing the death of

1:15:45Dolly Parton and part of the reason why I wanted to talk about that was because I don't know when we're gonna get Something that happens where the dsa and Donald Trump are both pouring their hearts out about like how awful it is that this person is no longer with us and When we talk about the anniversary that happens after the Kirk of her sorry September 11 It's often remembered as this moment of connectivity of letting our differences go and connecting over something that it's referred to as like the de-hyphenization of America that there was this moment where we we saw each other in a different light And I don't know if that ever happens again and I don't know What beyond the internet is the difference of it but I I just I don't know I and I don't think that I can change it or you can change or anybody can change it But I do think it's different and maybe that's just what getting old is is that you see the future and you're fucking scared of it

1:16:50No, I can't change it. I'll tell you why because I can fight every single one of these fuckers Single-handed. I'll let you have the first swing you pieces of shit. Come at me I think I don't know I guess because It's hard because I identify more with Charlie than I do the audience on this one So it's hard for me to judge whether or not it's changing But I'm hoping that mediums like this where we do talk more personally and we do admit that we have dark humor and like I'm hoping that at some point we'll start seeing media seeing media figures and even political figures as people as opposed to Entertainment or demons or like or whatever um, you know, I would hope that these long form pieces of content that we're creating would allow audiences to Feel something with the human beings on the other sides of the mic and I guess one of the reasons that it affects me so much every time

1:17:50I see celebration of Charlie's death as then it makes me feel like maybe that's not even it's not happening and it makes me Kind of sad Because I know that dark humor is and actually like telling a joke about something that you're horrified by is a way to heal Part of processing it. Yeah, it is. I guess like I just I doubt a lot of the posts that I read where I went like oh like I doubt that those are jokes I think there is a difference between a joke and a celebration and I do think that when someone dies you're allowed to feel insane nothing um and I just I think that if you're having those like celebratory feelings like that's probably a good time to just shut the fuck up but like I'm also coming out that as someone who pictured myself getting shot in the next so it's like you can tell like I'm just like uncomfortably been talking about this again So um, yeah, I would just hope that people would see each other as people more and this was yet another reminder for me that We don't We're not wrong pod at gmail.com where you need to go if you want to write in to the program

1:18:55I have a suspicion. We'll be getting some interesting emails on this particular episode The Germans the online All of the autism we could possibly muster We love our autistic honor. We love them. We love them Jen. What's in her name? Right? I wasn't offended by the baseball or football teams with Indian based name But what does offend me as somebody who has Indian blood is Trump renaming a landmark that boards name for hundreds of years before the pilgrims were even born Ontario is not a Canadian word they name the province from the lake No way is that real? Yeah, no, it's it's yes a hundred percent this this predates Canada and America it predates the Declaration of Independence Mark Carney had a great Post about this because he pointed that out and he used the word hydronium Which made which made him my my now favorite Canadian premiere of all time the fact that he responded to Trump using the word hydronium Good job, Mark Carney to our Canadian friends

1:19:56I also just want to point out that the minute Trump is not president anymore. We're gonna change it back A lot of this stupid shit us Americans aren't fighting because it's dumb and we're just gonna change it back So we might change it back when we make the deal to whatever the new trade deal or something like that like it's just Whatever I'm seeing a lot of Canadian content where they feel like Americans are at war with them And I guess like I'm kind of fascinated with this because I don't know a single American that's just like Them Canadians like this is really a Trump thing and I just hope Canada understands that like We're not behind this. There's not a military members that are like excited to go and invade Canada and they take you like this is not a thing in America and I don't this is a big winner for Mark Carney Mark Carney is is playing this I mean has like Mark Carney would not be prime minister if Donald Trump didn't have true social Like it is because Donald Trump antagonized Canada that The liberal party was able to maintain power because the conservative party

1:20:58did not have an answer for the Canadian anger That was spurned and Carney took advantage of the angry Canadians and is the prime minister now and That is a part of this is that like there's a political winner for a politician to keep this fight going Now we are doing everything we can to keep it going on and by we I mean the White House, but That is like there there does it it does take two to tango at least when it comes to some of the reporting around this And it is a winner from our Carney that he has seen as fighting Donald Trump and I don't blame the Canadians for being upset about it Like it's the president of the United States saying this I just I don't know if Canadians are aware that there's I have a talk to we single American who feels like we should be No, it's not that like I don't know a single American who's like ready to go fight To take over Canada or hurt them in any way like this is not us versus Canadians

1:22:00This is a fucking Trump thing The end and also I mean what would you do you can't even win a Stanley Cup So It's just and do it quit the politics game This is the last even remotely political program I listened to anymore and I've never been happier I never realized how deeply unhappy the constant wave of political bullshit was making me but it was I'll still vote and I sell to listen to my mom convinced herself that tariffs are good now actually And my friends cry about Gary Peters not wanting to shut down the government that one time seriously This is all people complained about but at least I'm not mean landing nonsense every day Well We'll find out I'm posting my Harry belly on Instagram So if you want to look at pictures of my Harry belly you can look at them on Instagram and like me and I don't know maybe I'll get uh A deal with Pepsi Cola to sell sugary drinks to people and uh I'll leave all this behind Yeah, how do you know a political podcast for is not well he starts doing burpees online

1:23:05Yeah, exactly they were jump squats today, but uh yeah, you can go ahead look at my look at my hairy little furry woodland belly It's gonna have tabs real soon 68% according to the robots that's how far along I am I have faith but We'll wash my clothes on them. You should You should The real victim talking about Trump's Venezuelan oil deal says yes, we should all feel bad for Delsey Rodriguez whom the UN confirmed was managing the secret police while they disappeared and tortured political opponents She spent her career rewriting laws with the Venezuelan government could throw civilians in a military prisons without a warrant She actively enabled an authoritarian nightmare, but because she isn't Israeli or a Republican We're supposed to feel bad for her because Trump threatened her I don't like what the US didn't Venezuela, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna start being empathetic to a tyrant We should have zero empathy for Delsey Rodriguez and the rest of the bany's wailin government

1:24:07No one was asking you to have empathy for Delsey Rodriguez Just the fact that she was threatened does explain why she sold out her country for a hundred years Like this was not a oh Delsey is a victim here. It's just explaining how such a terrible deal could be done in these times So no, Delsey's not some kind of victim But if you don't acknowledge those threats were made then It kind of makes it hard to analyze how she was able to give away their most valuable resource for a hundred years to sure Gas man writes the US would not opt to store petroleum long-term as refined products Gasoline in particular as a relatively short shelf life as it is subject to degradation selective evaporation of lighter components and moisture absorption That is why almost all long-term strategic stockpiles are kept as crude oil and refined product inventories are generally limited to what's going to be used short-term And minimum operation tank levels are cycled by pumping and displacing old volumes

1:25:10The current disconnection between why gasoline prices are so high compared to historical levels Whereas crude oil has not spiked quite as astronomically since the first month of the wars Primarily due to the bottleneck and refinery capacity Between the state of hormones being throttle the Middle Eastern refineries themselves being targeted in some instances by Iran Compounded by Russia's refinery capacity being more successfully targeted by Ukraine within the last year It is a shortage of capacity to convert crude oil into gasoline Diesel jet fuel etc that is causing the largest portion of the pain at the pump American refinery capacity is also already running at all out for the summer driving season And now there is more competition for those refined products European airlines singaporean drivers bidding against domestic consumers This is why the crack spread which is a measure of refinery profitability based on how much of the outputs are valued compared to the inputs Not what hunter Biden was given for his uh porn hub award

1:26:11Has routinely been hitting a new record highs with the most recent record set on September 1st 2026 That's fascinating thank you out of this really really smart Yeah, that was one Is this Doug Burgham is this the the secretary of energy here? The secretary of interior now, oh, that's right. So it's not Doug Burgham. I forget who the secretary of energy is But maybe you should be it Chris right Maybe I you know what listener. I'm in favor of making you secretary of energy There right uh the real oppressor rights the deal that Shavez sought with Chevron And I guess all four incorporations was a 50 50 split on every gallon that came out of the Venezuelan ground But that was seen as intolerable so the American corporations withheld their expertise and Locked out Venezuela from their own natural resources while funding the opposition movement The problem isn't socialism or corruption per se rather. It's the corporate refusal To defer to any other entity that might restrain them from maximizing profit

1:27:16It will never be popular to be hoodwinked on a national scale so Venezuela can never have democracy if the American corporations Won't accept less than maximum profits Yeah, corporations went maximum profits. This is this is how corporations work They don't like to leave money on the table The issue here as we talked about last week was whether or not they were Causing the country or whether they were making a deal with the country If they wanted to make a deal with the country to do a 50 50 split or excuse me if if Shavez wanted to do a 50 50 split and the oil Companies went no we don't think we're getting bank for a buck on that There's nothing to morally obligate them to take that the the ethical issue would be if if they are in fact like you know Convincing the government to invade or something like that, but I don't have a problem with the company going We're not going to do that Why are we here brings us on home on the oil deal the point jury makes is also the reason it's a bad idea It puts the US in a position of having skin in the game on the side of the regime

1:28:17Companies foreign to Venezuela will be investing years and billions to build infrastructure to pump the heavy crude And at the same time refinery companies in the US and everywhere abroad Must similarly spend years building new facilities to process it Depending on the specific type of oil being cheaply available as gen points out the current leader of Venezuela is unelected Just as Maduro was before her and with this deal the US will have every incentive aligned to become a shield of that Unelected regime by preventing future elections the ghost of a threat against these long-term and expensive plans posed by real Venezuelan election Would pose in charge of leadership would be preempted with extreme prejudice God damn. I wish a thought of that. It's a really good point. Good job. I'm still going to fight you But I respect you Yeah, we haven't stood for democracy in the world for a very long time if ever well and If anything if you read the Strategic I forget what it's called, but it's like it's it's the new strategic plan like for the United States

1:29:22Uh It's point of view is number one We rule our hemisphere We rule north central and south america America the united states of america's influence will be king here. We will not allow Uh the degradation of our power here number two We're not super picky About who runs each country as long as each country plays by our rules and understands where it is It was described by rye mcbeth as the Tony soprano version of American diplomacy now many looked at that as very very dark and cynical and dystopic others like Chad just mentioned Looked at it as maybe a little bit more realistic that we were never this you know a great giftor of A Jeffersonian democracy around the world and when we tried to do it

1:30:24It has ended in Financial and human calamity and disaster so maybe taking a more realistic point of view of saying look play by the rules And we don't give a shit is more realistic I believe that up to everybody's point of view as to what that is But I don't blame anybody for looking at the situation in Venezuela and saying Who makes me a little Iki to immediately make a deal with delsea rodriguez as opposed to having some kind of election and then looking to make a deal Even if you like what the deal is I will also say I don't give a fuck if Ralph Nader becomes president of the United States Nobody's given that oil back if that oil is actually proving out and filling the reserves Nobody's given it back JP Morgan once said that Every man has two reasons to do something a good reason and a real reason and I suspect countries might operate the same way I guess I just wish that If that was how we're I mean that is kind of how we're operating where it's like play by our rules or else

1:31:29But the problem is we seem to have torn up the rule book Like Trump was the one that negotiated our trade agreement with Canada in his last term and then completely tore up the rule book Like pretty much with tariffs all over the place like we were the country that was all about free trade we created The global rules and then we're not following them and no one knows what rules to follow so it's just It's one thing to be the bully and like enforce your will but if no one really knows what that is We're just chaos And I hate yeah Why Sarah Qs is dying Was our other topic last week like and subscribe rights he didn't mention his quote pie in the sky idea of having free liberal arts education To which Justin said it does exist. It's called youtube I very much agree that self education is very important and undervalued I am 19 and I spent the last two years pursuing knowledge and various topics that are important to me

1:32:31So just religion and theology philosophy and politics In fact, it's the entire reason I listen to your amazing show But I do emphasize the word skill because the entire idea of liberal arts education is to remove one self of bias and preimposed out Preimposed outcomes as you can learn this skill seems to be in decline. However, I'm only 19 it could always have been like this I am not saying that this skill is necessarily hard to obtain, but it is something that has to be learned Yeah, I think that's something that college gives you is the ability to Test yourself because you're with other people youtube is a one-way thing So um if your ideas aren't being actively challenged How do you build that skill if you're just You know learn like I'm not saying that you can't learn things like Like I'm learning video editing and I'm definitely using YouTube so it's like there's skills like that you can use but if you're trying to hone your critical Thinking and if you're trying to

1:33:33Work on acknowledging your own biases like it really does help to have sounding boards And that is what classmates and professors do provide Listener I am flattered that you're 19 and you listen to us. That's cool I wouldn't have predicted that but I'm very heartened by it The thing that worries me about universities and I don't have a firm conclusion on it is I think that universities in the American and British context started as Religious seminaries that existed to promulgate a right way of thinking and we decided for about a hundred years That we were going to revise that model and we were going to make it about critical thinking Which is good and which I'm very much in favor of I worry that that that seminary DNA never went away and then that might be the default Whether or not it is worse now or it's always been that way. I can't really talk I can't speak to but I but I worry that there is always going to be this kind of background desire to turn it into a seminary to promulgate the right ideas

1:34:35I'll tell you what degree required right speaking to that topic Heaten in the segment on college he'd instated that something changed between 1950 and 1990 Which meant that employer started requiring college degrees for all jobs that thing is a Supreme Court ruling in 1971 Griggs versus Duke power The ruling basically said that company screening tests which showed disparate impact were not allowed So companies looked around and saw that college graduates were a very small portion of the population and collectively just Out source screening test to colleges by requiring a college degree When companies relied on a previous correlation the college degree became subject to good-harts law When a measure becomes a target it creates or sorry it ceases to be a good measure As successive generations of people have noticed that colleges required a generic college degree is lost value Want to make everyone better off have congress right a law allowing companies to have testing as part of their jobs greeting You were blowing my mind. I had no idea and I absolutely want to look into this

1:35:40Based on what you're telling me I agree with you Like we we do have things like licensing boards. We do have things like the bar You would make total sense to me to have a private company have some sort of internal mechanism to screen for people And if if you're correct Yeah, that sounds like that could be the thing that that started shifting it over Now they're political or vintage episode. Yeah, I think it could be a very good one Hi on your own supply right? College is a place where young people learn how to think and society has a vested interest in having citizens who can do that The current situation of course is the result of unchecked greed unscrupulous institutions maximizing their control over the best known gateway to prosperity The solution is both public policy aimed at maximizing access and minimizing cost individuals and a cultural rejection of the notion That an institution's prestige determines the value of the education that it provides It's Great plan. We're going to give it way more money But everybody just agree to not care about prestige anymore. I can't see how this would go wrong

1:36:46I mean the biggest issue is you know the same thing that I'm going to have to face like how do I as a parent Determine what is best for my child Like that's why we all wound up Going to college right like because our parents were like you got to do it That was that's the that's the the motivating Uh Issue and that's why people will stop going to it if it gets too expensive or they'll go to different colleges You know right now it seems like The the schools that are booming are We're gonna get to this in the patron up so but like SEC schools because the idea of the collegiate experience is like I want to go I want a rush of sorority or join a fraternity. I want to go to a big school That is a big brand name and I'm going to root for this college football team for the rest of my life That's what's gonna be worth it um You know I don't know what you say to that There's the experience of college but then there's also like the utility of it

1:37:48And I feel like in the 1990s when we were making our decisions about going to college if where why all those things The degree itself was a worthwhile goal And I think what's changed now is people are finding the degree like I graduated in the year 2004 my degree hasn't gotten me any jobs What it did get me is the education that I needed to start congressional dish on my own I now know the difference phenoprimary source and the secondary source I knew where to find stuff within the government because I took a business law class like I had taken um media Classes just kind of analyzing why they do the things they do so it was like it's set me up for this in in that way But I never had a boss be like oh you graduated from Loyola like come work for us like that's not how it worked Every job that I ever had I either knew someone that just wanted to work with me Or I had walked in and they said sure you can start your waitressing shift it for you know like It didn't help me get a job So what I'm hoping for the youngins in my life and what I will be counseling them is

1:38:50Take the just for cashy jobs Well you figure out what exactly you want and then get the degree that helps you towards the thing you want to do But like my generation was going to college to figure out what they wanted to do To find yourself to like see and there's plenty of people I know that did all four years got the piece of paper and still didn't know What they want to do and therefore that education wasn't geared towards The career that they wanted so I'm hoping that the younger people now We'll see the value of the education itself as opposed to the piece of paper and take the time they need so that those four years Are really helping them with the skills they need as opposed to the prestige that goes on your LinkedIn There's also an idea we didn't really touch on this but like In a bygone era College was where you met like your spouse You know people got married a lot younger And that was about the time where you're like hey, let me meet

1:39:53You know you tend to you know get your MRS degree Yeah, no but and you you juggle out of it. I mean that was a huge element of this was like the in terms of the the idea that this was a pathway to adulthood That was part of it was like you you you fuck around a little bit and then you meet A real good one you settle down and then you have kids immediately because she never works again Yeah, yeah And then Change where the women started getting all the degrees and now you know men are just these barnacles These smelly barnacles So he's been that way you just are aware of it now Yeah, no, but we used that money now we're broke Broke stinky stinky little barnacles. Yeah, but now you have sugar mamas to attack exactly now We have to post our hairy bellies on Instagram Uh We're not wrong is the production of dog and pony show audio or editor is will

1:40:57Saddleberg on politics politics politics Salisa joins us to discuss the future of the electoral politics of the midterms we make him guess Uh On our scale of Scenarios that all of our favorite guests are coming back on to make their guesses as to which scenario is going to happen And then on Friday a conversation I've been looking forward to for months she had Uh a very complicated pregnancy. She hasn't been able to come on the show in months But Catherine D one of my favorite writers on internet culture is coming on the show That'll be Friday's episode She's a great writer. I would encourage everybody go read her sub-stack But a lot of the stuff that we were talking about with Deep irony and assassination culture and internet stuff she is a internet culture writer the best in the biz In my opinion and I'm excited to have her back on the show this Friday on p x 3

1:42:00Gen What about the dish? So Claire and I have been hard at work for weeks now on the episode that should be out before the next we're not wrong although We keep finding more um, but we're we're doing something for the anniversary of 9-11 We're essentially I'm looking at the The long-term fallout from the decisions that were made after 9-11 in looking at Where some it's a slippery slope like 9-11 was the start of some bad decisions that when you really line them out up Like one front of another and see where we are now It's not a happy episode But I think especially for the people that are younger that are are not as old and weren't adults on 9-11 I think that some of this might come as a surprise because I think If we look around now and be like how are we out the place where we are Storing people in cages all over this country and shipping them off to countries that they'd ever been to before like This didn't start with Trump

1:43:01Um, and it's not just the Republicans and so we have been going deep like these show notes are extensive And we have tons of clips from congress going back 25 years So this is one of those like deep dive congressional dishes that if people if you love those Just wait We're hoping to have that out this week Millennial bait a gigantic super long 9-11 episode. Yeah, that's like our world war two Heaten what's popping on the political orphanage. I have Dr. Sally primus on the political orphanage talking about how they do health care in Other countries. This is a topic that I've been wanting to tackle for a while I will probably tackle it again. She is a delight. She's extremely knowledgeable She's a very quick thinker and if you've ever been curious is to how other countries do their health care We do both a broad overview of the types of systems that other countries in the world use besides the American model There are three that they broadly fall into and we see how we stack up in terms of are we actually spending more money?

1:44:03Is this just because we have more money to spend or we less efficient? Are we more bureaucratic? How long does it take for our doctors to become doctors and so on and so forth? Very good episode on health care policy this week on the political orphanage There we go go listen to more podcasts because you're done with this one But you're not done with the show if you're on patreon so go listen to the patreon because it's gonna be a really good one but until then For Jen brini an angel heaten. I'm Justin Robert Young saying Where not raw The people in Deutschland are Doich Doich sip Dog and pony show audio