Alan Jones on trial: Radio rivalry and rabbit holes | Week 5 – Full Story podcast

0:00This is The Guardian. A quick heads up. This episode contains discussion about sexual offense allegations. This is Alan Jones on trial and I'm not Heidur coming to you from Gadigal Land. New South Wales police have arrested veteran broadcaster Alan Jones following an investigation into alleged indecent assault and sexual touching offenses spanning two decades. Historical matters such as this are incredibly hard to investigate and bring before the courts. The law assumes that I'm not guilty and I am not guilty. For almost 20 years, fans of Talkback Radio could tune in to the Alan Jones Breakfast Show followed by the Ray Hadley Morning Show on Sydney Radio Station 2GB. The two radio titans were colleagues for decades but as Hadley described to a Sydney court this week,

1:00their relationship was complicated and reached its lowest-ebb in 2019 when one man alleged to Hadley that Jones had kissed and touched him without his consent years prior. In week five of Alan Jones's indecent assault and sexual touching trial, Hadley entered the witness box to testify about what the alleged victim told him. But the courtroom also heard of a power struggle between the two stable mates. Joining me each week is media correspondent Amanda Meade to unpack the evidence at the Downing Centre courtroom. Today, rivalry and rabbit holes. The Untamed Thumbtack presents uncertainty strikes. I was surrounded. The aisle and the options were closing in. There were paint rollers, satin and matte finish, angle brushes and natural bristles. There were too many choices. What if I never got my living room painted?

2:01What if I couldn't figure out what type of paint to use? What if I just used Thumbtack? I can hire a top-readed pro that knows everything about interior paint. Easily compare prices and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today. Amanda, what a week it's been at the Downing Centre local court. Alan Jones's long time 2GB colleague Ray Hadley appeared in the witness box to give evidence and the court was given some pretty extraordinary insight into the way that their relationship deteriorated during their later years on air. That's right. Ray Hadley and Alan Jones have known each other for at least 35, 40 years. The way their relationship deteriorated was exposed by text messages between Ray and colleagues and between Ray and Alan Jones. Now, Hadley is key to the prosecution case

3:02because complainant C has told the court that he confided in 2019 in Hadley that he'd been assaulted by Jones. But he's also key to the defense because the defense says that it was Ray Hadley's rivalry with Alan Jones that propelled C to speak to journalists and then later to police to make allegations about Jones. Amanda, the week began quite slowly in court. The evidence was quite tedious. It was interrupted by legal arguments and applications by the prosecution. Then when Hadley took the stand, that seemed to sort of change. At one point, he seemed to wink at someone in the room and I guess my head's still spinning from all that took place in those two and a half days. Yeah, Hadley's a giant media figure in Sydney and that was reflected by the number of media that turned up to court.

4:03The prospect of seeing Hadley lining up for the prosecution against Jones in the courtroom was very attractive to the media. At one point, the defense barrister Gabrielle Bâshea accused Hadley of winking at the prosecution and he said, no, no, I didn't. I didn't wink at the prosecution. It was at a journalist in the back of the court. It was very confusing why he had winked at a journalist and it turned out that he was winking at someone that he mistakenly thought was the journalist he wanted to wink at. We never really got to the bottom of it, but it was just an example of the topsy-turvy day that we had in court with Ray Hadley, who is such a colourful figure. Who's got this loud, booming voice and he's very... has a commanding presence.

5:04And you can tell why he was a broadcaster because he certainly was able to project his voice on the witness stand. Yeah, that incident caused a bit of a cuff-uff-fall. Amanda, before we dive into the substance of the testimony and evidence that we heard, I think it would help to remind listeners of that nearly four-decade long relationship between Jones and Hadley because they've been in one another's orbit for many, many years. Hadley told the court that they met in 1987. So we're going back 40 years. They both obviously been involved in sport. Hadley was a race-caller, oxygenier, Jones obviously had a background in sport. And then they both ended up at 2UE when 2UE was top of the talk radio stations. And then they both got poached to work at 2GB in 2002 when Adman John Singleton was an owner.

6:04He audaciously poached both of them for 2GB and it was an almost instant success. And it went on to top talk radio in Sydney. And then they worked together at 2GB with Jones in the breakfast spot and Hadley in the morning spot. For 20 years. Amanda, I was looking at both Jones and Hadley as they each took their seats in court on Hadley's first day of evidence. Jones was seated in the back right hand corner as he's had done for the last five weeks alongside his legal team. Hadley walks into the courtroom through the centre-ile and takes his seat in the witness box. And you know, he's this tall towering figure. He strides straight into the courtroom. Jones keeps his head fixed at the front of the court. And as you mentioned a moment ago, Hadley spoke on the stand in the sort of typical booming, you know,

7:05Kurt voice that people would be familiar with on air. What did you observe as the pair came face to face? Was there anything that you saw? Well, it's easy to forget what Jones was like behind the microphone because of course in court he's completely silent. And you don't see, you know, that power that he had and that those strong opinions. But you could still see it in Ray Hadley. I think the judge even commented that he was good at keeping his voice up because he advises all the witnesses. Please keep your voice up and speak into the microphone because Hadley was, you know, determined to be heard. And he was very polite, but he was also not shy to make the odd comment, which didn't seem to fit within proceedings. Yeah, Amanda, I want to say from the outset that some of the evidence at times felt somewhat removed from the criminal allegations

8:05that are at the centre of this trial. And even on numerous occasions, Judge Glenn Walsh expressed his frustration about the line of questioning that was being pursued by both the prosecution or the defense. At one point saying, I'm not going to allow this court to chase every rabbit down every hole with regards to the machinations at 2GB. At another point, he cautioned that if you're going to chase every defense rabbit down every burrow, we're going to be here for a year. And, you know, we've touched on this in previous episodes. And you've mentioned why Hadley has been called as a witness for the crown. But what is the defense's argument as it relates to complainancy and Hadley? Laying out the working relationship between these two men is central to the defense case. Just to remind listeners, Hadley's appearing as a key witness because he was close to complainancy. Now complainancy worked for Jones as a young man as a driver. He has told the court that Jones touched him on the penis and kissed him in the lifts at 2GB and at his apartment at Circular Key.

9:17And then C has also told the court that in 2019 he confided in Hadley that Alan Jones had been allegedly touching him when he worked for him. The defense, of course, wanted to cross examine Hadley about this apparent disclosure that he got from C in 2019 because it's central to their case that the allegations were concocted. So Jones denies all 22 of the indecent assault and sexual touching charges against him. Eight of the charges are linked to this complainant complainancy who worked at 2GB. What did Hadley say during his evidence in chief about that conversation he had with complainancy where he confided in him? He said that it was a very emotional conversation that they both were very emotional that it took like 30 or 40 minutes and that complainancy told him what happened, what Alan Jones allegedly did to him when he was driving and in the lift.

10:28Hadley said that he asked him, are you homosexual? Did you consent to that? And that complainancy broke down and said no, I'm not homosexual and I didn't consent and I feel really guilty that I didn't manage to put an end to it. And then Hadley said words to the effect of you with the victim, you don't need to feel guilty at all. And he said that he just listened to him and comforted him and he felt like walking around the desk and giving him a hug. And then he said, did Hadley say happened after that initial conversation that took place in late 2019? Hadley said he asked C if he wanted to talk to the journalist from the Sydney Morning Herald who was researching a story about Alan Jones. And C said yes but I want to be anonymous and I just want to give him background. So Hadley actually called Peter Fitzsiamonds who is a Herald columnist who used to actually work at TUE and he put him on the phone and the two of them had a conversation in very general terms about what C had told Hadley had happened between him and Jones.

11:48And he once asked him if he wanted to go on the record or wanted to tell his story and he said no, Alan Jones is too powerful. You know, I'm too afraid I don't want this to go anywhere. Okay, so complainancy at that time didn't participate in a story but four years later in 2023 spoke to investigative journalist with the Sydney Morning Herald Kate McLiemont for her investigation, subsequently became the catalyst for the police investigation which then resulted in the charges that are now before the court. On the day that that story that that investigation was published back in December of 2023 Ray Hadley got on air and addressed the allegations that were front page of the Sydney Morning Herald. Can you take us back to that day Amanda and what Hadley said on air? Hadley was of course taken to this incident in court and he explained that he wanted to say something about the allegations because it was there on the front page of the Herald and he was on radio and he wanted to address it.

12:58So he did check with C about what he couldn't say. He took to their waves and he told his listeners what his role in it was. At the time I offered my unqualified support and I asked him what he wanted me to do next. I offered to speak to the then station owner and the then station chairman or perhaps actors as a support person. He said he had too much to lose and he'd be crushed by making such an allegation. He asked me to promise I would never reveal what we had discussed without his express permission. Using the pseudonym that C had used in the Herald article, he said that he had described him in detail what allegedly occurred with Alan Jones and he felt unburdened by it. The C felt unburdened by telling him and Hadley talked about how much support that he had given to C and that he would continue to give that support.

13:58He also addressed his relationship with Jones and he said that since these allegations were made by C in 2019 privately to Ray, he has severed contact with Jones. Jones, he could no longer be friends with him. My relationship with Alan Jones goes back over 30 years. It's been an unusual one. We've had many battles and some good times. But from the day I spoke to our relationship was basically seven. Given that it had already been strained over other matters not related to the allegations made by B. This address that he gave was actually pre-recorded. He told the court and it was prepared and legaled by 2GB lawyers before it was pre-recorded. We'll be right back. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble.

15:00Every single time I use my sink I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. The crooked corners eye me and I'm haunted by more tiling questions than I thought possible. What kind of pro can fix a backsplash? Can I replace one crack tile or should I replace them all? What? But if I just use Thumbtack, I can hire top rated pros, read reviews and compare prices with a tap, all on the app. Thumbtack knows Holmes. Download the app today. Okay, Amanda, I want to get into some of what Hadley said during cross examination by the Defence Barista Gabrielle Bouchille. Texts as you've alluded to earlier that Hadley sent about Jones were read out in court and he admitted to calling Jones a number of derogatory names over the years. The texts were pretty explosive. I mean nobody wants their private messages read out but Hadley admitted that he had made a number of slurs and derogatory remarks about Jones.

16:03I mean he couldn't deny it because the texts were all laid out before him. He used a homophobic slur which he did say he doesn't usually use but agreed he did on that occasion. And then there were just numerous derogatory references to Alan Jones. We even heard that he called him several unsavable words in person to his face including your dog. Hadley said on the day that the story was published in the herald and Alan Jones came out publicly and denied everything. Hadley said to the alleged victim C, I won't rest until I bury Jones figuratively and literally and that he will tear his supporters apart and what he meant was the people who were still supporting Jones who denied that anything had happened. There's some very interesting evidence about the relationship between Hadley and C and the journalists at the herald including that Ray Hadley got a kind of snapshot of what was going to be in the paper the next day.

17:12Texted to him and he said to see that expletive will be in a fetal position when he reads the story in the morning. It's been 50 years in the making and of course he was talking about Jones would be in a fetal position. There was one other text exchange Amanda between Hadley and Jones. What can you tell us about that? This came out under cross examination when Gabrielle Bessier read out a text that Hadley had sent to Jones when Jones had been very ill and in the text he said, I hope you get better soon. I love you. And Bessier said that was rubbish wasn't it you didn't love him. And he said, no what I said was I love you above ground. And then he went on to explain that that was because Alan Jones said, I've been so crook if I hadn't have had the flu shot I probably would have died. But he said I would have been in in Rookwood cemetery underground had at least text was I love you above ground.

18:19And he told the court he didn't want Jones to die. He said, look we've had a tumultuous relationship, but obviously I don't want him to die. Amanda, so there the texts that were read out in court we've also heard evidence under cross examination of what's been described as a secret contract. Can you tell us about the evidence that was presented with regards to this this contract that Hadley had supposedly gotten? Yes, so we got all of this information, which was very interesting to people who watch the media about you know contract negotiations and obviously we got them because of the defense case they wanted all this to come out. So Hadley said that he signed a secret contract behind Alan Jones's back in December 2018 to take over Jones's breakfast spot. So the breakfast spot was more prestigious than the morning slot. He said that he was offered $4 million, which was double his salary, which was $2 million for doing the morning show.

19:24And that he signed it and he was going to take over in 2019. However, all of that was overturned because 2GB had a change in ownership and the new owners, 9 radio, had Peter Costello on the board and he was a fan of Alan Jones and he wanted him to stay in breakfast. So Hadley agreed that he would stay on mornings, he would give up breakfast as long as they still paid him $4 million a year. During that part of the cross examination, Hadley told Bishie that she was completely wrong about his motives. Yes, so Bishie was suggesting that when this secret contract wasn't on it, it infuriated Hadley. And he said, no, I wasn't coveting that that breakfast slot at all. I was quite happy to stay in mornings because Jones had inadvertently doubled my salary. So it didn't matter to me that I stayed on mornings, didn't move to breakfast. I could sleep another two hours a night and still get paid for a million.

20:34But she kept suggesting that he was so furious about this that he was looking for ammunition against Jones. Amanda, just before we heard from Hadley, we did hear from another witness who spoke of a rivalry and a power struggle inside 2GB. He suggested that complainency has hitched his wagon to Hadley whilst others had backed Jones in this power struggle. Then Hadley told the court that Jones had martyled the troops against him. Can you explain what the court heard about that incident that prompted him to say that? This incident is kind of a side issue, but the defence used it as a motive that Hadley had motive to be against Alan Jones. And Hadley found out that a staff member had made a complaint about him that he'd assaulted him in the corridor.

21:34But it never went anywhere because CCTV showed that the man who made the allegation was nowhere near Hadley in the corridor. Hadley blamed Jones for marshalling the troops against him. And he talked about how Jones put out the message that people should dig up dirt about Ray Hadley. Amanda Hadley ended his cross examination insisting that he wasn't white-antying Jones, insisting that he wasn't after that breakfast slot, that he wasn't the pinnacle and that the way that the defence was seeking to cast his actions were wrong. As of recording, there is now another witness on the stand. What are we expecting in the coming days? So we've now heard from, I think we worked it out about seven witnesses to do with complain and see. I think there are several more to come, including the journalists involved in this case, Kate McCleymont and Peter Fitzsiamonds, and other people related to complain and see.

22:40We got an insight into when we may get a judgment in this case, which is just to remind people going to run until at least December. Judge Glen Walsh said that he was going to be handing down his judgment in about six months' time, which would make it next February. There are so many legal arguments along the way. Witnesses are constantly being sent out of the courtroom while they have legal argument and then the judge has to go away and make a decision about it. And so it does seem to be stretching out, and he has made a quip about, I think you should all cancel your summer holidays, it might go through Christmas. I for one Amanda have appreciated Glen Walsh's remarks because it's given us a bit of a sense of where he's at as we've been working through a number of witnesses and complex legal arguments. Thank you so much for your time and I'll see you next week. Thanks, now. You can read the latest from the courtroom on theguardian.com, and if this episode has raised anything for you, help is available.

23:45You can contact the National Family, Domestic and Sexual Violence Counseling Service on 1800 Respect. That's 1-800-737-732, and Lifeline on 13-11-14. The series producer is Taylor Strano, sound design and mixing by Jacob Brownt, video production by Rachel Heron. Our theme music is by Joe Coney, the executive producers of Alan Jones on trial are Hannah Parks and Shelley Hepworth. Don't forget to subscribe or follow Alan Jones on trial wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Naut Heidr, we'll be back next week. I love my verbo for the view. Good reason. Oh, I'm the sauna. Sweet.

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