Alex Murdaugh Crimes, Jodi Arias Trial, "Bad Vegan" Deep Dive - Megyn's "True Crime" Mega-Episode

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Over the murder of her boyfriend, Travis Alexander,

and did you watch Bad Vegan on Netflix?

We talked to the woman at the center of that entire bizarre drama.

Love the true crime shows. Enjoy and we'll see you Monday.

Today we are diving deep into the case of Alec Murdoch and there are updates in this incredible

case, believe it or not. His story begins much earlier than the crimes that made

national headlines over the past few years and no one has covered the story quite like

the Wall Street Journal's Valerie Boerline who wrote the book The Devil at his elbow.

We get into everything from Murdoch's family history to the details of his downfall and the new info.

Valerie, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Okay, so this is also fascinating and one of the most eye-opening things I read was about

Alec Murdoch's background. It comes from a long line of deeply,

ethically problematic people which I did not know. All you ever heard about him was that he came

from this very storied family. They were lifelong solicitors or like the prosecutors

in their town in South Carolina, very well respected. They controlled everything.

It was far more nefarious than that. Can you take us back?

Oh, what absolutely was. I mean, I think one of the biggest surprises I had researching this book

was that every crime that Alec was eventually convicted of had some echo in the past and that

includes like the violence gets women or overtures of violence gets women. That includes

insurance fraud like by the side of the road. There was an active insurance fraud that started

the family dynasty stealing from clients drug trafficking. There were echoes in the past for

every single crime we're talking about even a boat wreck that caused really a traumatic injury.

So that was that surprised me too. It wasn't just Alec. It was the history going back to 1920

of this family. Yes, I mean, it really does show you. You know, if you have a family, a father,

a grandfather who are committing crimes and teaching you either explicitly or implicitly

that that's okay. Your odds of becoming a criminal are obviously much higher. But hello,

women of the world pay attention. Pay attention to your spouse. The guys you're dating,

it can work the other way around too. And what they come from, who they come from. So this

his great grandfather Randolph Murdoch senior basically committed suicide and insurance fraud

at the same time. That's right. And I was in Hampton just last week. I actually was standing at

the train tracks just south of Almeida where Alex the home place that Alec went the night of the

homicides. His great grandfather Randolph senior was a very prominent man. I mean, every meal he ate

was front page news like where was he now? He was the district attorney for four counties in the

low country of South Carolina. He was he was very sick. He was 53 years old. He was he was dying. He

was at the end of his life. He had kidney failure at a time when they're just he didn't there was

no cure, right? There was no dialysis. He was broke. He had been a big investor in the in a bank

and then the bank failed. And through the depression, he was just I found documents down at the

courthouse in Hampton where he just would say there's no chance I can never pay these people back.

So he was broke. He was dying. And he knew how to do one thing incredibly well, which was

sue the railroad, which at that time in 1940 was one of the only entities worth suing. So what

happened was he was driving back from a poker game in Yemmese, a little town right on the Hampton

County line at one in the morning, hottest day of the summer, 90 some degrees. He holds he stopped

short of his home and turns on to a deserted train tracks and and right and is at the base of it.

And as the train is coming and if y'all if you grew up in a small town near a railroad,

you know what time the train comes through. The train is coming north and you can hear it for miles.

It's coming north. It's bearing down on this train tracks. He speeds up onto the tracks themselves

and they're blowing the whistle. They're flashing the light. It's a clear moonlit night and they see

he sees them and instead of like driving off, he waves at them. And what happens is there's a

corner's jury and the corner of course was a protege of Randolph senior. This sheriff was a protege

of Randolph senior. There was an inquest the next morning and guess what? The local corner's jury

found that in spite of the testimony of the engineer and others, it was an accident and it cleared

the way for Randolph, Murdoch, Jr. Alex grandfather to sue the railroad for the equivalent of millions

of dollars, which is what he did successfully. Is Randolph Murdoch Jr. Buster? Randolph Murdoch

Jr. is old Buster and old Buster was a real force to be reckoned with. He was solicitor from

1940 when he was 25 years old to 1986. So Roosevelt to Reagan. And he even stayed in that office

beyond that time. The legislature finally essentially forced him. They created a rule that

essentially forced him to retire, but he kept going into the office as a volunteer solicitor.

So he was, so Randolph Murdoch Jr. Old Buster, Eric Murdoch idolized him. He told many people that

he wished he'd been born in Old Buster's day because in those days, what you said was what the

truth was. And Old Buster was, he ruled with an iron fist. He was one of those guys that would

rather be feared than locked. And he also continued fraud and potential violence against women.

So Old Buster, I was able to pull 900 pages from the National Archives of the records from his

trial, his federal trial. The feds charged him with bootlegging, actually running the largest

bootlegging ring in the South. He was the ring leader. They charged two dozen people. Old Buster,

Alex grandfather was, was charged with leading this entire ring in College and County. And he was,

uh, he was, he was, he was accused of taking a cash bribe in the hallway of the College and

County Courthouse, which is the hallway that we went in and out every day of Alex Murdoch trial.

He was accused of, of intimidating witnesses, buying off witnesses and, and, and, and eventually

of tampering with the jury by buying off the foreman. And he was one of the only people and

that entire week's long federal trial that was, uh, acquitted. So there's a history of, of, um,

you know, Alex Murdoch was convicted of, of drug trafficking. His grandfather was credibly accused

and narrowly escaped being convicted of bootlegging. So again, this, it's up. Tell us about the

mistress who got on the wrong side of Alex Murdoch's grandfather. So there was, there was, there was,

there was testimony in Alex, that Alex trial, as you remember, there was testimony that

Alex was somewhat of a, um, a flanderer. And that certainly is a history in the family going

back generations. His grandfather, Old Buster had, um, had a mistress, not several, but one in

particular, who he was in touch with for many, many years. Her name was Ruth Fox. And Ruth Fox

was married to, um, a local, like a, a northern baron who came down about a plantation and she was

from one of the nation's first families, a really impressive woman in her own right. And, um,

she was had been, uh, in, in the Navy during World War II, like training pilots, which is kind of

wild to think about what kind of woman was doing that in the 40s. And she met Buster and asked for

his help and getting out of her obligations. He's like, I know everybody. I'll know all US

senators. I'll help you get out of this, out of this bind. They got to know each other and what

you know a year later, she is pregnant with his child. She goes to, it's just such an incredible

story. She goes to the house and we're talking about the same house that Alex went to the night of

the homicides in my cell. He goes that, she goes to the house, knocks on the door, speaks to Alex

grandmother and says, you know, you have a son. I have a son. These boys should need. And the

grandmother says, you know, don't let my name come out of her mouth ever again, go away. Um, and

it was, it was a stunning thing because she had survived essentially. Um, when she had told, uh,

oh, Buster that she was pregnant, he had tried to have her killed. She, he had a fixer of the story

goes, he had a fixer of one of many who, who laid, laid in weight underneath her porch one night

and got a little bit too drunk and fell asleep and didn't kill her. So there was just like this

incredible, incredible echoes throughout this story. Isn't it amazing? Yes, it is amazing. I mean,

I cannot, you must have been to slack job when you read up about the direct line from which he came

and it's, it makes sense of everything. So it didn't stop there. It didn't even skip a generation.

Alex father also had a history of paying people off to cover up a boat accident, which of course

would set off Alex's own story with a different boat accident as well.

Well, there was, um, and there was certainly a terrible boat accident in 1998 from the same island,

like Murdoch Island where, you know, you'll remember the, the, the tragic boat wreck that killed

Mallory Beach in 2019, they took the Murdoch family boat from the family compound, which is called

Murdoch Island. Back in 1998, um, Alex younger brother was having a party on Murdoch Island.

There was a boat there and it's incredible. I couldn't believe it when I saw the documents. It was,

it had been seized in a drug raid by the solicitor's office. So by old buster and he liked the boat.

So he kept it for his own use at the island. Sure. And everyone, the family used it. So they,

it's, it's, it's, it's late at night, there's some guests there that wanted to take the boat home

rather than the roads because they didn't want to get in trouble. They've been drinking for many hours.

And they, these, these young men set off on a boat ride home and it's tricky. We know from what

happened with the, with the wreck that killed Mallory Beach, it's very shallow waters and places.

They hit a show and stopped and then immediately started that up and didn't realize that one of

the guests had fallen overboard and it got run over by the motor and sustained a traumatic brain injury.

And you know, I've got hundreds of pages of documents from the state that show, um,

the, the Murdochs were involved in trying to make that wreck go away. Even some of the same DNR,

the natural resources officers, the, they, even some of the same officers who were involved in

the Mallory Beach wreck were and they were working that night as well. So the echoes in the past are

just, just, I, sometimes I couldn't believe it. I really was gobsmacked many times in a row.

Yes, same. I'm having the same reaction just sitting here. So then of course we get to Alec and

this whole thing that we watched this double murder trial in which he was found guilty of

killing his wife and his own son was set off by that boating accident. The second one,

not the one you discussed where the woman was run over. But more recently with the younger

generation while Alec was out on a boat was drinking and they had an accident and Mallory Beach was

thrown from the boat and wasn't found for some time later and she was dead. And that old Murdoch

instinct to cover it up, run cover for those involved or especially for Alec kicked in and would

set off a chain of events that would ultimately destroy the Murdoch family.

And it's so poignant to look at pictures of Mallory. She was 19 years old when she died. She was

just full of life. I've gotten to know her, her family over the course of reporting this story.

And it was, it was Alec's boat, but it was his son Paul Murdoch who was 19 at the time who was,

who was, who was driving. I mean, I think the facts established that he was driving. He was

criminally charged with it. And so he's, he is incredibly drunk. He drank a lot. I talked with

people that knew the family. He had been sneaking beer since he was eight years old and and

in a certain point not even sneaking them. So he was, he was, he was very, very drunk. He had 19

drinks that night. His BAC when he got to the hospital was 0.286. But he was, he was a, he was a

person even at 19 who've been drinking for numbers of years and, and been driving drunk for

numbers of years according to people I talked to who were involved in wrecks with him before. But,

so he, he gets angry at his girlfriend who's one of the, one of the passengers on the boat.

Confronts her. She says, you're too drunk to drive. Give everybody the keys. Slaps her, spits in her

face. Goes back to the wheel of the boat and, and floors it. The equivalent of 28 miles an hour.

And they're going through a very narrow, very shallow path and a hit of bridge that fast and

Mallory is thrown overboard. I never resurfaces. And what all the evident, I've got thousands of pages

of documents. Some of them public, many of them not, not, many of them that had not been reviewed

before that just showed that there was, when Ellic got to the hospital that night where these young

people had been on the boat was, he went room to room to room trying to get everyone on the same

page. He had his, his, his grandfather, old buster's badge outside of his pocket pretending to be in

law enforcement officer. And I have his cell phone records and have tracked his path that night. Do

you remember when he testified that he put blue rights, blue lights and siren on the suburban that

he's driving? Yes. It was almost physically impossible for him to get from Mozel where he and

Maggie were living at the time to the hospital unless he was going fabulously fast, 80 or 90 miles

an hour. And I think it stands to reason. And I argue this in the book that he almost certainly

used lights to, to get to the hospital before the other families and get everyone on the same page.

And but it really was his, his undoing the reason that he said he wanted to live an old buster's

time is that, you know, there were so much evidence in the video cameras in the hospital that night.

So many statements, there was so much, everything is recorded, right? You know, and he, he could not

outrun modernity. And, and in the end, that night and his actions and night of the boat rack really

with the beginning of the end of the family. For, among other reasons, he was then sued by the

beach family. And that in the course of that lawsuit, he would have to produce discovery,

speaking to his economic status, his financial data, and so on. And he was, we know,

separately now running a massive fraud, stealing from his law firm, had a massive drug problem,

or so he testified, and was very worried this was all going to come out. He would be exposed.

And at the same time, his law firm, was this coincidental, was this coincidental

Valerie that like the law firm started an investigation of Alec at the same time for possible

ethical breaches, or were those two things related, the lawsuit and the law firm, getting

interested in him? Well, it's all kind, it's all kind of woven together. And what, what happened

in the immediate aftermath of the boat rack is that Valerie's family was having a tough time

finding a lawyer to represent their interest. And Renee Beach, Mallory's mom, tells the story of

being down at the, at the landing where the boat was had come to rest. And wanting to go down

there and see where her daughter was, where she was the last time she was spotted. And the police

were very, very kind, but said, I'm sorry, you can't go down there. Here's a case of water for

you and your family while you wait. And there was a moment where Randolph Murdoch III,

Alex Dad, and Maggie, his wife, came down in their pickup truck. And he waves at the officer

and waves him through. And Renee Beach realized then, oh my gosh, this is not a vigil. I thought I

was at a vigil mourning my daughter. This is a crime scene. And the family that's been the law

in this area for 100 years is in charge of it. I need a lawyer. And she made a critical decision,

which is to hire a lawyer to represent the family's interest. And that lawyer was a key player

in a big character in this book. And his name is Mark Tensley. And there's no enemy like your

former friend. He was very close to Alex. He knew the playbook. He had a card key to get in

and out of the Murdoch law firm at will. And he recognized those relationships. He's like, oh,

I know he knows these particular officers because of my own personal information. And once he

decided to take the case, take the beach's case, he was relentless in showing that,

that Eric and potentially the officers who were involved in protecting the scene were really,

really protecting Paul from charges. And so he filed a lawsuit in very short order. And that

lawsuit sought, like you said, all of Alex financial records. He's just a standard part of a

civil lawsuit to say, how much insurance do you have? What resources could you potentially pay

if there was a judgment? And and Eric knew more than anyone else that he had been robbing his

personal injury clients, the poorest of the poor, for more than a decade. And he knew what any

serious inquiry would would do. And so he had to stay that off. And and in the end, it was his

undoing. So he killed his own wife and his son, Paul, who had been at the helm for that boating

accident. And it was an attempt to garner sympathy, like to make him a sympathetic character so that his

law firm would move away, would stop investigating him. And so that the lawsuit involving Paul would

be less strong because, you know, the main culprit would be gone. And who would put this poor man

now through the torture of seeing a civil lawsuit through, it was an effort to just change his own

financial and reputational fortunes. Now, I think, I think the prosecution argued that very

effectively. And one of the things that I think that Mark Tensley said on the stand is, you know,

personal injury lawyers don't think like other people. They, their, their gift, their understanding

of a successful one is, is understanding emotion. Like what motivate, what might motivate a jury

to, to, to pay blood money and a lot of it in a case, they understand what makes people tick.

And he knew that, you know, the day of the homicides, June 7th of 2021, and I'm sure we'll talk

about this, he had been confronted over some of that missing money that he had been stealing. $792,000,

not a small amount. He knew that the law firm was on to him. And he, he knew also that his father

was dying. The, the patriarch of this family who had also loaned him a million dollars over time.

And who he had just been texting with his, his buddy at the bank, oh, I'm going to get another

loan from my dad for some money he was short. And he was, dad was dying. He knew this, this,

this lawsuit was pending about his financials. He had been confronted over the missing money.

And he also knew that Paul was a mess. I mean, sadly, and may he rest in peace, Paul's actions,

drunken actions did not cease with a boat wreck. There was, there's testimony and, and that even

just 10 days before he was killed, he was on a boat drinking, taken some people out. And, and he

had to call his father to get out of it. So Paul's behavior was, and it was not deescalating. If

anything, his, his behavior is getting worse. So yes, I think that the, the state made a really

effective argument that he needed to do something to become instead of the object of suspicion,

an object of sympathy. And what more would do that except becoming instead of a, instead of somebody

a theological thief, a grieving father, a grieving husband, someone who was the victim of a

horrible crime. And, and for months, he was right. It completely changed the subject.

And he had prior to getting arrested, done what I guess it was his great grandfather did,

which was attempt to create a suicide situation that would lead to an insurance payout. I mean,

now it's like kind of all connecting. It's all connecting. And it really is extraordinary. So,

so over the course of the summer of 2021, he did almost get away with the murder of Maggie and Paul.

He really did. And he almost got away with the thefts that he's now admitted to dozens and

dozens of people, millions, millions of dollars, by, you know, getting, barring more money,

barring money from his best friend, Chris Wilson, barring money from, from the, getting,

getting fronted money and trying to repay the $792,000 back, back to the law firm, which he did.

And they stopped, they kind of let, let it go until, and that goes in July and in August,

until the, the Thursday before Labor Day weekend, his paralegal is in his office looking for

some paperwork, which he knows he doesn't like, but she really needed it. She lifts up this folder,

finds the check that was missing, that proved that he had been stealing. So, what happens then

is the gig is up. Alex confronted by his brother, his law partner, and many other law partners,

and they say, you've been stealing, we've got evidence, you've been stealing from the firm,

you have to go. So, he gets fired that Friday of Labor Day weekend, and what happens

the next morning? Saturday morning, he tries to fake his own death on the side of the road.

And what he said was an insurance fraud attempt to, to get money for his surviving son, Buster.

But what really looks like another way to change the subject, just like he had done

back June 7th with the homicides of his wife and son. It really is stranger than, stranger than

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No, there are many theories about what happened actually at the side of the road,

but the man you're talking about Curtis Eddie Smith will tell you, and he said it. He's like,

if I'd shot him, he'd have been dead. What he believes happened is there was a struggle over the

gun, and he has said he thinks that Ella was trying to frame him, that they were struggling

over the gun, and maybe Ella was going to be bigger, like six more, 200 pounds. Can you

overpower this, and Curtis Eddie Smith, because Eddie is a smaller guy, he's been out on disability

for a number of years. Ella was a disability lawyer, and then frame him, and that you remember when

Dick Harpouly and Jim Griffin, Ella's lawyers, they said in court filings, they're like,

the real killer is Eddie Smith. He was the one who killed Maggie and Paul. One of the theories

is that Ella may have been trying to kill Eddie and then say, see, he was coming after me to kill

me the same way that he killed my wife and son. It's strange, I don't know if you remember,

but he was paying, Eddie was cashing a lot of checks for Ella over a number of years,

and the checks accelerated that summer, that hundreds of thousands of dollars that Ella was

effectively paying Eddie in a way. So, was he going to say, he was blackmailing me, look at these

payments. There are multiple ways to look at what actually happened there, but one of them is

that, if you look at the photos and the defense released the photos, they signed a HIPPA release

and released all the photos. There are people locally that say, that's not a cut in his head. He

fell and that's the gravel on the side of the road that caused him to be cut.

But one thing I should add, because Eddie is that he's actually a cousin. I could not believe it,

but if you go back more than 100 years to the Civil War, Ella's great-great-grandfather,

so Randolph's senior's father, was an officer in the Southern Army, and so was Eddie's great-great-grandfather.

And they were brothers. His great-great-grandfather was named Lazarus Murdoch. He was what they

call a fire-eater. So, he was an especially virulent anti-union. He made these incredible

speeches that got picked up by national media, and actually were read by Abraham Lincoln. So, Eddie is,

he says, he's like, I'm half Murdoch, and he's right. He's well-known.

Do we know? By the way, just for the audience, I'm talking today to Valerie Boreline. She wrote

the book The Devil at his elbow, Alex Murdoch, and the fall of a Southern dynasty. Do we know where

all the money went? This is one of the mysteries, right? It just seemed like Alex was taking in so much

money via fraud from the law firm, the clients, and so on. And where'd it go? It seemed like

he claimed he'd just spent it on drugs, but the conclusion by many was always how many drugs could

that could he possibly have taken? He took in more than he could ever have spent was the layperson

conclusion on the funding. No, and I think one of the key voices in the book is Blanca Simpson,

who was the Housekeeper at Mozilla for many years. And I think the evidence establishes that

Alex was using drugs, but I think there's no evidence that he was using the amount of drugs and

opioids in particular that he says he was. And I had the benefit of 10 years of spending. I could see

his through some federal exhibits. I could see what he and Maggie spent over the course of 10 years

down to like when they would go to the Honeybake ham store at Thanksgiving. You could see what

that expenditure was. And what was so shocking about it, and I think we probably know people like

this in our own minds, as soon as money came in the door, it went out. He was overdrawn,

tens of thousands of dollars, multiple times in a year. Maggie would have to call him and say,

can you call the bank? I need to be able to, I'm at the grocery store. I need to be able to

cash this chain and be able to pay for my groceries. You know, it's extraordinary. It was,

you know, they would take a private plane to a USC bull game instead of flying first class or

you know, they, they, Blanca told me and there's a farm equipment out on Mozilla, which is 1700

acres, a huge, huge property twice the size of Central Park. And rather than fix, you know, a big

piece of heavy equipment, they would just put gallons of oil in it every day. So he was spending

hundreds of dollars on oil. It's hard to even understand where the money was going.

But there is missing money, you know, millions of dollars. The fed say that it's still missing.

So he spent a lot of it. He spent some of it on drugs. He, I think there is, I do subscribe to

the idea that he buried some of it at Mozilla and PVC pipes. I've talked with people who've been

there. Wow. When those pipes have been dug up. But you can't, I mean, cash is tough. It's tough

to bury, you know, millions of dollars in dirt over time. There is a theory and I think the feds

have been pursuing it that some of the money is offshore. And what's he going to run that summer

is one of the ideas. But there's the fed say about six million dollars that's still missing.

So that makes more sense that we've got millions missing than that. He spent it all on the drugs.

All right. So then we go to trial. He does wind up arrested. This all comes out. There is

the moment he has found guilty. Actually, we have that. Let's just watch that. It's not 51.

The state of South Carolina, county of Collatin, in the court of general sessions, the July

term of 2022, the state versus Richard Alexander Murdoch defendant, indictment for murder as

C code 16 dash three dash zero, zero, one zero, CDR code zero, one, one, six, verdict guilty,

signed by the four lady. Okay, and that's interesting for a few reasons. One, he was found guilty.

Two, old Becky Hill reading the verdict would come to play a major role in this story,

which no one knew at the time. But Becky almost got this verdict thrown out because of her behavior

behind the scenes with the jurors. And could it still curve behavior get this verdict thrown out?

Is that totally settled? I know that we had a hearing in which a different judge said,

no, I'm not throwing out the verdict, but could that be reversed on appeal? I imagine Alex

lawyers are taking that out. No, it's it's incredible to watch that footage. I was sitting there that

night and I was leaning forward on the edge of my seat just listening to it because I remember that

emotion and and and all of the docket numbers and numbers were like, but what's the answer?

So, but we had been in that courtroom. It's very tight corners. It's the soaring ceilings. It

was built and it was designed in the 1820s, but very tight quarters. And we had been in there

every day for six weeks. And by we, I mean, the lawyers, the law enforcement officers, the jury,

the the Murdoch's. They were across the aisle from me. I could, you know, exchange pleasantries

every day. And so it was an extraordinary result to be there that night and listen to the verdict

read by Becky. And Becky was really like the den mother of the courtroom because the clerk of court

makes sure the jury has lunch, make sure that the press has the credentials or, you know, do they

there's so many people in downtown Walterborough didn't have places to eat. What about food trucks

which they ultimate bought in? She was sort of the the principle of an elementary school.

It's what it felt like a little bit. So it's a real for Becky to be the the center of so much

scrutiny. But what that scrutiny is about is her relationships and potential talking out of

school with members of the jury, many of whom she knew beforehand. And many of the jurors knew

each other. It's a small town. I always I'm, you know, I'm from I'm from a relatively small town

myself in the south. And, you know, if you had a hundred people in church the day before

jury selection, you know, five of them would have gotten a jury summons. So, you know, people knew

each other and the jury wasn't sequestered. Everybody in town knew who they were. And Becky, you know,

knew a lot of them personally. And so the question was, did she talk to them out of school and

did she say things that would prejudice prejudice them against Ella particularly when he took the

stand. And the jurors come forward to say, yes, at least one of them said she influenced my verdict.

And it is, it is a small town. And we talked a little bit about the bootlegging case involving

old buster. You know, it's extraordinary. But Becky's grandmother and grandfather and her uncle,

who was a teenager, were charged, federally charged with felonies in that bootlegging ring.

They were on buster's payroll. And everything is connected. Everything's connected there.

But to your question, Megan, I think that we did have a first answer. There was a hearing back in

January where the former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Jean Toll, was asked by her former

colleagues on Supreme Court to take a listen to this request for a new trial. She denied it,

but the defense is appealing it back to the Supreme Court. They've agreed to hear it. Even though

it seems unlikely, they will overturn their own special, the person that they trusted with this

decision. And then also, they're very close allies with Judge Newman, who presided over the initial

proceeding. He's very tight with the Chief Justice Don Bady. So I spoke with Dick. I saw him recently

in Columbia, Dick Harpoutlyan, and they see their best chance at a new trial at the fourth

Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, just a little bit further removed from South Carolina,

which is such a small state. And getting fresh years at this idea of not just did

did Becky Hill say things to the jurors that were prejudicial, but also did the state apply

the wrong standard. And it was a degree, it's a measure of degrees. Like, yes, we acknowledge that

she talked with a jury, but did it, did it move the needle? And so what they hope is that the

the federal court will apply a different standard. Yeah, that they they're going to argue they were

held to to too high a burden of proof to prove jury tampering. And that a lower standard should have

been applied, which would have allowed them to prove jury tampering, which would allow him to get

a new trial. The Justice toll was great when she came in and held that hearing over Becky Hill.

The allegations against Becky Hill just got weirder. And Justice toll, I will say was I'm sorry,

she was she's just such an extraordinary figure in South Carolina history. I used to cover

South Carolina politics when I was a reporter at the state newspaper in Columbia. And she was

the Chief Justice at the time, former Speaker of the House. She's been in public life there

for 60 years. And came was a young lawyer. And this is so extraordinary to me was a young lawyer

in a in a time when women weren't even allowed to serve in a jury until 1968. And so she was she

she did. When she was up there, I say this lovingly, she she seemed like a tough old broad in the

best sense, you know, like she was going to tell her to say that. She knew the Murdoch. She knew

the Murdoch and she had actually both in the legislature, I talked I talked with her about this,

both in the legislature and on the bench had had pushed for laws that would would kind of

fall back some of the power that they were using, you know, inappropriately in her view. So she

knew the Murdoch quite well over the course of decades. She she made the comment about Becky Hill

that would become very well known. Here it is, not 52. I find that the clerk of court is not

completely credible as a witness. Miss Hill was attracted by the siren call of celebrity. She

wanted to write a book about the trial and expressed that as early as November 2022 long before the

trial began. And that led to bad behavior by Becky Hill, which got this whole thing, you know,

mucked up. But do you remember, I'm just spent a while since we've covered this, but she also has

a son who worked in the courthouse and there was an allegation about him wiping his phone and wiping

her phone on the day that they were supposed to turn them over for an internal ethics investigation.

It smelled too high heaven. You know, it is, I think it's, if you're not from a small town and a

rural south, maybe it just, it boggles the mind, but her son was the information technology director

for the county. And that was, you know, it's a, she's an elected official. She is, she is,

she is, but she's also, you know, politically powerful. And some of those jobs are patronage jobs.

And he was, he was in that role. And is, you know, accused of, of tapping the phone of an

eminent county administrator that was communicating with the state ethics board to try to find out

what was going on in the investigation with his mother. There were all sorts of wiping the phone,

which, you know, his, the lawyers will tell you is a fairly standard move in some defense cases,

but I look highly irregular to a layperson. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because it's such a big case.

It captivated so much attention that the sintering of the circus is really Eric Murdoch in the trial,

but we're, we, there's so many outer rings with the, with the Mallory Beach case, for example,

there's another case that's ongoing about whether the convenience store where Paul bought beer,

whether the owner of that convenience store has been trying to harass the beach family over the

years. That's been going on for several years. Becky is, is facing an investigation into her

behavior, and that's been going on. So we're in multiple layers of drama with this story,

and it's just incredible. Like the layers, I remember sitting in court and watching Eric during

a break. He was, you know, six feet away from me, and he's the center of the, he's the eye of

this hurricane, and there's so much swirling around him that one person can stir up so much chaos

is really amazing. So now here we are where he's appealing. He's going to argue Becky Hill mucked

up the trial to the point where he gets another trial. We don't love the chances, but one never

knows. And in the meantime, the wrongful death lawsuit that Mallory Beach's family brought

against Alec, is that totally resolved? That was the, the, the, the remnants of that were resolved

this week with a $500,000 payment from her, from the, from Alec's insurer that had been tied up,

and that was paid to the lawyers. This past, the paper was filed this past Monday. So that

case is, is pretty well wrapped up. Did the family, did the family get a payment too?

The family did. Not this past summer, but summer of 22, they, I'm sorry, summer of 23,

they received a payment largely from Parker's convenience store, this convenience store we're

all about beer, on the order of $14 million. So it was a significant civil judgment that

and, and, and I learned a lot about personal injury law in the course of this, of reporting this

book, but, you know, the personal injury, this was considered, you know, what is, what was Mallory's

life worth? It is blood money. And so it was, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a difficult fact of

personal injury law that the more money that you get paid is a reflection of, of what,

you know, a jury might think your, your, your, your loved ones life is worth. I'm sure it's a,

it's a special form of sentencing for you because every time you get into the car, that money bought

or the bed, that money paid for, it's got to make you feel awful. And, and they will tell you,

and they will, and they will tell you, Mrs, you know, Pamela Pintney, Hockey and Pintney's mother,

Hockey and was the, the, the peer plegic teenager who, um, who died in a nursing home and was

robbed by Ellicmer Doc twice, she would tell you, she would give back all of it for, for time with

her son. It's just, it's this, it's the, the proxy we have in our judicial system to, to make a

family as whole as possible knowing that nothing really ever will. So what, if anything is happening

with the other piece of this story, which is the possible murder, there's only one other piece.

By, by Buster, Paul's older brother of a young gay, classmate, who was killed on the road,

but there's just only speculation that it was Buster, Murdoch, not actual proof, and they were

going to reopen that investigation and the wake of all of this. Where does that stand?

Well, you know, you, you mentioned the, the missing money. There's also the question of the missing

guns and the homicide, but the biggest unanswered question is what happened as Steven Smith?

He was the, he was a 19 year old young man who was found in the middle of a road in the summer of

2015. In the, the course of the investigation, the Murdoch name came up 40 different times. People

would say one of the boys or another was involved somehow, but I should be clear, there is no evidence

that Buster or Paul, there's no, there's no proof that either one of them had anything to do with

the death of this young man. Buster has gone so far to say, you know, to, that there's, he had

nothing to do with it. He wasn't close to it. It wasn't there that evening, and he's even sued

some of the documentary filmmakers who have, who he alleges have, have, have said that he had a

role in some way. They certainly have, but it is, you can go through the, you know, it's,

it's 90 some pages of a, of a police report where the name comes up over and over again,

in very, in very strange ways. So there's always been a rumor that the Murdoch were involved

somehow in his death or in making it impossible to find out who was, who, who killed him.

But I can tell you that the state grand jury has been still been meeting over this case,

and taking and trying, and it's eager to figure it out. It is one, but it's still haunts

Hampton County. So we, it, we may never know, but it won't be for lack of interviews and

lack of trying, because they're actively, actively working the case from what I understand.

So in the time we have left, what's, what life like right now for Buster Murdoch, the one who,

the son whose entire family has, has been killed or is now in jail. And for Alec Murdoch, who

was living this life of excess and now is convicted of double homicide, not to mention all the fraud

charges that were brought against him separately, which he was also found guilty on.

No, it's very pointed. I was, I mentioned I was in Hampton last week and went by the cemetery.

And I saw Matt, it took, it took a while, but Maggie and Paul's grave students have been

put up and people will leave flowers there. There's a ceramic dog that was, that looks like,

Bubba, the, the yellow lab that belonged to the family, that's there. And most point of all,

it's, you know, on, on, on Maggie's headstone, it says, you know, Margaret Brandsteader Murdoch

mother. And on Paul's, it says Paul Terry Murdoch son. And it's, it's incredible that that is how

you'd be defined, but the, the person I was with said, what happens to Alec? You know, where is he

in this picture? So, will he be remembered as a father? Will he be remembered as the person that

killed him? But he's in, he's in prison in the upstate. He has, um, acclimated to prison life,

well, according to when I'm told, and by that I mean he has, um, Alec Murdoch is the type of a

person who works the system. And he has, um, he has relationships. He does, he's, he's a

disbarred lawyer, but he's a law, he knows the law and he helps other inmates with their questions.

He's, he's using his notoriety to, um, to, to his benefit. Um, he, he was, you know, accused by,

or, you know, he, the prison's system of prisons found that he had been, you know, essentially

bribing other inmates to let him use their pen number to make phone calls. He sees figuring things

out on the inside. Um, but he will never, ever see the light of day, even if there's another trial

in the homicide case, the state has effectively got an insurance policy. You remember back in

November when he pled guilty to those dozens of financial crimes and they got a sentence that will

take him, keep him in prison until he's roughly 80 years old. So the regardless of whether the

homicide is ever turned. As for Buster, um, my understanding is, you know, he's, he's living in

Bluffton, the community just, you know, adjacent to Bufert with, um, his, his fiancee is a woman

who was in court with him every day, his, his girlfriend from law school, who is a lawyer.

Um, he got a substantial settlement from his mother's estate, roughly $500,000. There's a payment,

I, I document the book where he participated in a documentary, um, and, and got several hundred

thousand dollars from that. So he has a small amount, not, I'm sorry, not a small, but, you know,

significant amount of money to, um, to, you know, start a life, although it is difficult to see

how he does so separate from his family because his last name is Murdoch. And he's got that red

hair. He's so, just, he, he, it would be hard with that, that name and that hair to make a,

make a new life. Mm-hmm. You'd have to go someplace else. I mean, there's a brother, Alex

brother seemed non-sociopathic. I, perhaps there's some hope there. I don't know raised by that

man with that family lineage. That's, well, and you, you're right about his, his brothers, um,

his, his older brother, Randy and his younger brother, John Marvin, are still in the community as well.

You know, I was a, I went by the law firm the other day and his brother is older brother,

Randy is a partner there and is actively working cases. His younger brother, John Marvin,

runs a heavy equipment business and as you go down the main drag from linking Hampton and

Varnville, you see Murdoch rentals right there. So they're still in the community and, and, um,

and, you know, well, regarded to a degree. Um, but I think that everything's changed with, with, um,

with a downfall. Is anyone living at the estate where it happened?

So Moosell is the estate where it happened. It actually has been sold and it's been sold in two

pieces that the house itself was sold along with roughly 20 acres to, um, to an out of state buyer

that was whose name was not revealed. And the, the, the delta the other acreage was sold to a,

a neighboring landowner who wanted, who wanted the land. Um, you know, it is, I went by there the

other day too, just to, to take a look. I had been onto the property during the trial. I had

accompanied the jury on their, their visit to see the place. It still fills, um, it still seems like

a, there's a heaviness in the air out there that it is still, um, a haunted place really.

Dick Harbutley and said so and, and I, you know, and I felt it as well.

Always will be. Well, great reporting. Valerie, thank you. Her name is Valerie Boreline and the book

again is the devil at his elbow, Alex Murdoch and the fall of a southern dynasty.

Google it, check it out, devil at his elbow. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us

the story and the updates. Thank you so much for having me. All the best.

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Today a deep dive into the Jody Areas case. This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was

viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Areas. We revisit the case with criminal defense

attorney and longtime Kelly's core contributor Mark Eiglarge. We'll take a look back at the events

leading up to Travis's murder. What Jody's life is like in prison today and Mark will dissect the

defense and prosecution in a way that only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little walk-down

memory lane because used to come on Kelly's core back then as now. This one doesn't involve you.

This Kelly's core doesn't involve you but it's a scene center. Now we're 10 years post-vertic

right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air. We got the guilty verdict and covered

it with the court then which was Mercedes-Cole in that day in John's billboard. Look at this sweet

delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now. Listen.

I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace.

That's great and the Oscar goes to because this is a woman who stabbed him 27 times in the heart

as well then shot him and look at the bloody sink. I'm not to be sensationalist but prosecutors say

the man was standing at this sink watching himself get stabbed to death, watching himself get murdered

and bleed out over over the sink. But Mercedes she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give

me a break. A very pregnant Megan Kelly in that clip but that gets to it right. I mean the thing

because I've been asking myself Mark what is it about the Jody Areas case that kept people so

riveted and in part it's this mousey little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders

that ever came before the national eye. You left out one thing which is obvious and maybe you

intentionally did it but Americans like pretty packages. If she wasn't pretty and I put that

in quotations. I mean it's not how I feel but there is some type of objective in Hollywood what

people look for. People found that she was attractive and if she wasn't and she looked differently

I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's bring that out. That's got to be

something that you concede right. And the sex I mean it was like an R rated trial. It was like

cinematics back in the day. Oh yeah. No there was a lot of that yes and she really threw punches.

I mean she really you know dead man can't tell tales. He was dead. She was free to say whatever

the hell she wanted. So whether it be you know allegations of him being involved in kitty porn

which he can't defend or him wanting to do which really was documented because you heard

those horrible audio tapes of him you know some of the things he would do to her which weren't

meant for public viewing. It was just horrible. All right so let's start let's start at the beginning.

These two meet in 2008 I think it was 2008 at a business convention and 2006 sorry

to September these two meet in September 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada,

Jodi Areas and Travis Alexander and then they start dating out a few months after that. As far as

I can tell Mark they were only dating for like four months but they continue to they continue to

sleep with each other. Yeah it sounds like it became very physical very quickly and you know she's

the manipulative type right so I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lost. I think

this was her you know playing the angles looking to manipulate him and she jumped all in real quick.

Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship because I think she was like 28 he was

a couple years older than that that she was some sort of a psycho that she had you know problems with

other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history. I don't remember hearing

anything like that. I heard little stories but you know everybody comes out of the work on high

profile cases. Nothing that I attributed as credible and believable. So he was a Mormon and she

wasn't until after she met him right right right right she became a drive through Mormon you know

all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that was you know again to somehow take one step further

into his good graces. So they they they meet uh yeah here she is getting her you know I don't know

is it a baptism into the Mormon face I'm not exactly sure how it would refer to this but they date

from February of 2007 to June 2007 and then they break up and maintain a physical relationship. One

year later one year later she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents house. This would

become important because it was one week before the murder and what happened in that burglary.

Yeah next level stop she's thinking okay they stole a gun from my grandparents so that guns

out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun however she'd like to use to potentially

execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial a bunch of

different things intruders accident self-defense and if she intentionally staged a burglary at her

parent her grandparents house a week before the murder then it's very clearly a premeditated act.

Absolutely the best she's got is well I brought it with me for protection I was going on the road

whatever I didn't need to kill him I had it with me doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to kill

him but it's strong evidence of it but I got to go back there's something that's bothering me

and it'll bother me tonight Megan I had brought out that she has a pretty shell to many people.

Did you concede that is she what you would call attractive and I'm not talking about her soul

I'm just saying don't you think that that played a role in why people cared so much why the media

yeah I was sure yeah if you haven't attracted defendant or victim I mean I think she was

prettier when things started and then when she took the stand when she was at trial she tried to

make herself look very plain janey mousy you know but like the blonde and you know the naked

pictures obviously she's got a very good body all those things play into whoa what's

happening there what that kind of a person right all right I got what I needed you can move along

I got it I just need to know that okay okay so the date of that burglary was May 28th 2008

June 2nd 2008 which is now two days before the murder she rented a vehicle from budget

rent a car in Reading California and then on June 4th 2008 Travis Alexander was killed in

Mesa Arizona so I mean to me this does all look like premeditation she looks like a jilted

lover who became a stalker who became obsessed with him were told that in I think April right

before the fake burglary at her grandparents house he was going to go with her on some trip

Matt right and then he bailed cancun everybody wants to go to cancun baby and then he she thought

she was in the money she was going to go with him it's going to be romantic he's going to

really spend the dough on me he's going to he's going to it's going to be romantic and he picked

another girl that was it and that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic like you never know what's

going to set some crazy stalker off sure to the point of point any normal gal who has strong

feelings for someone for whatever reason but when you take someone who's you know got 51 cards

and isn't all there that can really amp it up yes all right so that's as near as we can tell

like one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow but they had been on again

off again with the sex after breakup so you know who knows how this exactly files in June 4th 2008

that's the day of the murder and we'll get to what happened that day but weirdly his body was not

found for another five days why do we know why that what's like did you not have a job did you

not have friends how do you sit in your you know how is it that a body to five days in the apartment

without anybody noticing yeah it was like that I'm trying to think of the specifics but they he was

supposed to be somewhere and then they checked in on him I think a friend did finally wasn't there

but yeah I don't think he had any place that he had to be he didn't have roommates he didn't have

nosy you know parents coming around so yeah just happened wow all right so the day of the murder

June 4th what happened she she goes over there and what happened oh I don't know meaning you

know we have what was alleged by the prosecution the jury found her guilty you never really know

exactly what took place um but what it looked like was um she had a plan to execute him

and that's exactly what happened she tried to defend with he was attacking me and that was

malarkey initially though I think she was on inside addition and told a few people I wasn't there

I was framed like the Mona Lisa had nothing to do with it and then when the evidence comes out like

most of my clients do they go oh wait you got that evidence okay okay okay okay I was there

thought that's what happened so initially you know the murder happens on June 4th

she leaves we we know I mean she winds up confessing on the stand we know she did this crime

now um but she left the crime scene no one finds Travis until his friends realize like he's not

showing up at events etc and they go to his house they the friends find his body in a crumpled heap

in his shower an incredibly bloody crime scene and called 911 here's a bit of that call

hello hi so what's going on he's he's dead he's in his bedroom in the shower okay how did this

happen do you have any idea no we have no idea everyone's been wondering about him for a few days

she's up there's blood so is it coming from his head did he you know it's all over the place

hmm and right away mark the friends suspected her they they described her to the authorities as

as a potential stalker and that's what Travis had been saying about her but they did have sex

that day right I mean like it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual

interlude prior to the murder that's what someone usual listen you know this guy clearly was a

guy with strong emotions which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that and you

know they went at it and my guess is there were some discussions maybe that was her way of trying

to convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for cancun to go I don't know

but something happened and she snapped if if she didn't plan on doing this anyway no matter what

because you have hours and we know this because they found a camera the two had been taking pictures

of the sexual acts there's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera I mean very

consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end so for sure and it looks like

it went on for hours well what do you make of that in other words I want to know what you think

they're why are they having sex in the next minute she's executing him in a horrible horrible

tragic way which we're going to get to but why do you think what's the sex about what do you think

I think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him though he didn't realize that's what it was

I think he thought it was just genuine a genuine hookup and I think she had this whole thing planned

she went there to murder him and this was her farewell you know send off to the gal I do that's

why she's a sick effort and so I think she had the whole thing planned out and this was there's no other

reason okay that is just cold as ice baby wow that's her that's what's interesting about her I mean

from that you know that's I never thought about it like why she's infected my mind I couldn't

wrap my head around that theory and so I then thought okay she's got it just in case whatever

and then things go awry and then she kills him either second degree or she just said okay it's

part of my plan that I'm now going to implement and she had time to think about it when she's there

and she does it but I don't know man you think she knew she was going to kill him prior to having sex

with him yes I do I think the whole thing was planned out in great detail but she's a bad

murderer I mean she's she was effective at committing the murder but very bad at covering up her

tracks and she should have said more more time in the planning and the lying phase because she turned

out to be a disaster at that now she very shortly thereafter gets arrested the friends are like

it was it was jody area she's a stalker meanwhile the day after the murder she went and saw another

love interest some guy named Ryan Burns a former coworker of her of hers in Utah that guy I think

he also took the stand it's like that's how cold she is Mark like she now at this point there's no

doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before she goes off to see another lover oh no problem

and like yeah consider what you're saying like to be able to have sex with with this guy before

she she kills him you know there's Travis already's dead she she seems to just manipulate and this

is also what I know after the fact I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison

and stuff like that but that seems to be her MO I don't know that type of person but someone who

who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation so she probably had numerous

fellas in her life including the guy you just mentioned where okay on to him what do I need from

him let me manipulate him to get it and there they tend to be narcissistic personalities right who

it's all about them you only matter to the extent you reflect off of them you cannot leave them you

certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with jody and that's why you can't process it as a

normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get dumped it's sad but we

don't kill anybody so she goes to see Ryan and then let me tell you this yeah that type of person

gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me you know who's

got sensibilities the right moral compass who goes to work every day kids family normal they come in

and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these people and a lot of times like well wait

that doesn't make sense I wouldn't do that there's no way that happened that I I couldn't have done

that even with the Murdoch trial to this day I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed

yeah it's hard for me to actually see it because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what

the average juror can wrap their heads around well that plays into the brutality of the crime because

you you look at this beautiful tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this you

know you see like too big mussely men with the tats in the prison in their background and you

think oh okay you see Jody here as you think no because the level of violence that went down

at this crime scene was unbelievable 27 stab wounds yeah a slip throat and a gunshot to his face

and the medical examiner testified that the the actual like slicing was extremely deep three to

four inches deep into his neck trying to find the exact description of it but it was absolutely

merciless she she nearly decapitated him while he was in that shower she clearly went in there

while he was showering and nearly decapitated him stabbed in 27 times and then the medical examiner

said after that shot him in the face so I mean the level of anger behind that mark speaks to what I

mean I don't know what are we what are we gleaned from the level of violence it goes back to what I

keep trying to do in my head maybe as a defense lawyer as a compassionate soul to believe that

something went down before that happened that he said something that set her off I find it hard

to believe although I'm not relating to this type of person that she and this is probably what

she did that she had the whole plan and this was as you say her goodbye love session and then I'm

gonna get him in the shower and she did it just seems more consistent with someone who is set off

by some words or how can that be okay but how can that be because we've seen the crime photos and

and among the photos that they found on the camera which she left behind right is there photos

of Travis in that shower and it appears to be after the lovemaking you know he's in the shower he's

not wearing his clothing and that's of course we know where he was killed and he's okay there are

photos of him in the shower he's okay so you don't have a fight I mean like an errant word from the

shower as she was photographing him naked after their love making that doesn't make sense my theory

makes much more sense no it might I again I'm I'm not defending this woman at all I'm just saying

human being I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap my head around

what she did it's so challenging and it's hard to understand how she this life thin little thing

yeah could could kill him could kill a man he wasn't overly large but he was bigger than she was

sure and how do you stab a man 27 no matter he was in the shower I guess he's vulnerable and he's

not expecting it but I mean if that if that you know slice across the neck was number one then

that would have been the end of it and it probably and it probably wasn't I think the medical

examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first which would make sense

she's he's caught off guard he goes like this she continues to stab but you just said it he's

off guard he doesn't expect it he's vulnerable he's got nothing to defend himself except a bar

soap you know what do you do she she she knew what she was doing and she's passionate and aggressive

and and and wanted it done and then to shoot him after the fact as a me he said that he didn't

see a brain hemorrhage from the bullet in Travis's head and he said there would be if if the bullet

had gone in there while he was alive and his blood was pumping so she shot him she just made sure

you know he was a hundred percent dead she wanted this guy dead she was very angry with him

which again suggests I think my theory you know she was angry she was dumped she was angry she

wasn't going to cancun you don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jody Areas

and the whole thing was a setup that's you know that seems to be what the evidence suggests I agree

I just I just cannot relate it's gonna take me some time to process probably tonight as I'm

laying down right in my great-fills wait a second she had sex with him as a goodbye Megan said

that I trust Megan I believe her and then execute him in the most violent manner in other words

after stab number 16 that apparently wasn't enough for her you know it required another few

jabs right now we're at 21 22 still not enough I need about six more and then I'm gonna slash

this throat and shoot him you really do have to think about what she actually did to appreciate

how hard this was my god and then and then leave his crumpled dead body in the shower like he

was trash she did get arrested a month in a couple of days after the act then more bizarre behavior

came out I'll get to the interrogation room but she gave an interview to inside edition

marks number one advice to all of his clients do not talk shut up let me do the talking if

there's gonna be any talking she talks the fish who kept his mouth shut never got caught right

that's right that's right and and I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial we I've

done it in many cases but that's after you know what the evidence is you know the parameters you

know how you can and can't get hurt what she did was just reckless so she gives an interview to

inside edition which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do she did she she was

a narcissist she wanted to be a star she cared about how she looked how people were perceiving her

I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name in lights as opposed to just like

oh my god keep yourself out of bars um here is a bit of what she told inside edition this is

well before the trial after she just been placed in jail did you kill Travis Alexander

absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander I had nothing to do with his murder I didn't harm him in

any way I witnessed um Travis being attacked by two other individuals who I don't know who they were

I couldn't pick them out in a police line up so what happened um they came into his home and attacked

us both you did not shoot Travis no I've never even shot a real gun you did not stab him 27 times

that's that's heinous let his throat from here to ear I can't imagine splitting anyone's throat no

jury is going to convict me why not because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one no jury

will convict me oh man oh man we could we could have we could do an hour just on that there is so much

there like so wait all right so let me just go first of all the one thing she asked for

was for makeup prior to her mug shot that's what she's thinking about right right I'm not thinking

about a life of of having to never take a shower ever again in a in a jail or prison because you

know I'm too pretty she's worried about her mug shot she needs to to mix there we go it is a nice

mug shot so we're gonna like point how she's so narcissistic she wants the world to love her and

and believe that she's you know snow white but look at the way she acted this is why you never

know anyone you just know how they want you to see them because she looks believable if you

know nothing about the facts of the case and you look and you go yeah how could she have done that

so be careful she never really I watch that interview Mark and all I can think of is Phil Houston the

human lie detector CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there

who's at CIA for 25 years and what he talks about I'll set it up for I'll play it again but listen to

how okay she does a couple of the things convincing behavior if I say to you Mark did you kill this guy

you say no you don't try to convince me you would never kill anybody that's that's not what a

normal non-killer does so the convincing behavior the deflecting behavior the qualifying statements

the trying to convince you she's a good person listen listen to it again understanding those

are signs of deception did you kill Travis Alexander hey absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander

I had nothing to do with his murder I didn't harm him in any way I witnessed Travis being attacked

by two other individuals who I don't know who they were I couldn't pick them out in a police line up

so what happened um they came into his home and attacked us both you did not shoot Travis no I've

never even shot a real gun you did not stab him for seven times that's that's heinous let his

throat from here to ear I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat no jury is going to convict me

why not because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one no jury will

convict me classic that's heinous what that's convincing no I can't imagine ever slitting so who says

that you wouldn't say that you'd say no no I didn't do it period listen in retrospect you see all

these signs you don't really see it up front but she did you know listen there's one thing that

she did say that really bothers me I know it's probably for other cases but when I can't stand when

blame other people for their crimes and worse I actually think there should be an enhancement

a penalty enhancement when you pick somebody of a certain race or it's always like oh black man it is

to Latina women who did this or it was two black males who I can't stand that all right I'm done

yeah no it happens all the time yeah to Latina women who is that that was the blonde lady the the

wife who staged her own disappearance yeah so now thinking about so how many how many Hispanic

Latina women are stopped and questioned and harassed in that area because of what she said right

I can't stay still the area said I couldn't pick a matter of lineup like don't bother

don't worry we won't Sherry Papini Sherry Papini was the one that was the two the two the two the two

precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her trying to identify

someone that give her credit for this yes okay so she gives that BS interview I mean it's so

weird and you can take it right now I'm not going to be convicted what the hell this is not a sports

game like just this is a crazy person sitting there though not legally but I'm a subject of craziness

there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station doing a headstand

and I want to ask you why why did she do this they left her alone in the interrogation room

for the listening audience she goes down headstand legs up against the wall she's got no shoes on

she's in civilian clothes she holds it for 30 seconds they said she then began to walk around

the little interrogation room and sing a dino song and search through the trash so mark what's

that about well whenever I've done that Megan I know what I should know what that means

that's a nut job well is she going for an insanity thing that's my first thought was she trying

to look like a nutcase in the most series of circumstances she's doing headstands no no no no

I eliminate that listen of all your theories that one I don't like because that would mean this

narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her she wasn't there I was framed like the

Mona Lisa she's not going to then say I'm nutty I'm crazy I did it but I did it because I'm you

know I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness or defect there's no way that that's

what she was doing so could it just be she's been in there for hours and somehow in her apartment

she does that I don't know there's women who do headstands like that for some purpose I think

right isn't that part of so well yeah I mean it could have been a stress reliever I don't know

it could have been a stress stress sure she was stressed um you heard in that interview with

inside addition she claimed for the first time two intruders killed Travis and that she was there

as well the ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup um she continued to claim a

home invasion and that we've been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera

before the intruders got there the camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day

they took pictures of each other she took pictures of him post injury like post at least one picture

they say of it was of him in the shower like while he was being attacked and so we have crime

scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him but the reporting

was that there was at least one photo post initial injury how does this person leave the camera

there and I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine yes I'm glad you said that

I was getting that vibe it was either washing machine gun thinking back all these years it was

either washing machine or dryer so I think it was the washing and somehow the um I don't know the

little disc or whatever they use was still good and they were able to get those photos and again

once that evidence came in that's it she's done all our stories I don't get it Mark she leaves

she's got all the time in the world she leaves they don't find the body for five days she knows

there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him moments before he dies

why why why would she why she buy buy that's what I think happened why wouldn't she just take it with

her I don't get it it's too stupid is she a moron she left a lot of clues and she serving a

life sentence I wouldn't put her up there with Einstein yeah now finding a doctor is a little less

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she gets arrested she goes on trial once she takes the stand and was it a surprise do you remember

because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to offer its side

was it a shock when she took this stand i don't think i was shocked no um in fact the type of

person that she was very outspoken very passionate i think she needed to i think that she i think

was expected i don't think i was shocked okay because somebody's gonna have to say what happened

inside of that room and she's gonna have to admit she was there now thanks to the photographic

evidence yeah and and also anytime there's any element of self defense which is pretty much what

she was saying that she was attacked and then she you know had to do something that that can't

be brought up by a lawyer you got to put them up there okay because because she started with

intruders to inside addition uh she continued with home invasion uh and you know i was an

innocent victim that saw him you know get attacked and then she switched she switched to

Travis attacked me and i killed him in self defense she at an august of 2010

she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis Alexander admitted

into evidence the letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self defense the prosecution

objected saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim of self defense

and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by mr. Alexander

but they denied that and they said these letters should not be allowed um her new theory was that

Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self

defense that was ultimately mark what she did claim in front of the jury was it not

that's all that was left in other words okay the two intruder theory didn't work everything

else didn't work then you're left with right on there i can either do insanity which works in a

fraction of one percent of the cases and in this case with all the planning and all the you know

lies after the fact would absolutely not work so by you know the same way i took the bar exam i might

not have known the answer but i eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer and what's

left is the only thing i got to go with so that's what happened she starts to try to demonize

Travis he abused me he sexually pressured me he treated me like i was his sexual play thing

i didn't enjoy it he was this Mormon who you know made me do dirty things that i didn't want to do

because he whatever he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross here's some of that okay we

have um first of all she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's expectation of him

you know where she wanted it right absolutely no proof of of that whatsoever other than her weird

word here that is sought for i walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating

and i thought really nervous it was a picture of a little boy oh five fish five six i'm not a good

judge of age he was dressed in underwear like briefs i was frozen there for a minute

waiting and i just ran i didn't stay i felt nauseated ran inside and threw up in the bathroom

that's a clip from hlm which was why there's music over the weird testimony but yeah so she

tries to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had and had spider man pajamas

ordered to the house like she was very specific she's dangerous because she's not an idiot

i mean she's dumb but she's not an idiot i don't know what that means but you know i'm saying she's

very cunning she's not a criminal mastermind what's that i said she's not a criminal mastermind but

that doesn't mean she's um not smart she's correct she's creative she's you know cunning she

she plans these things out she had plenty of time to to plan how she was going to

um lower him in the eyes of the jury and and you dig from the pedophile card deck that's about as

low as you go that was the worst yeah so then she tries to say that she had to give him certain forms

of sex because he was a Mormon and this is what he required of her he'll let her tell it this is

five sex the sex they're just different ways to have sex and it seemed like it seemed like Travis

was kind of I don't know how to put it on but it just seemed like he sort of had like the

the Bill Clinton version whereas over here it seemed like you know Oro and anal sex were also sex

to me but not for him so now she's jody the librarian right she's got her little glasses on

he made me do it this way and the other way the pedophile right so she this is the defense

and this is one of the reasons why America was riveted so transparent what she's doing to me anyway

and I think to the jurors also but you still got to do it you know you adult the cards that you have

you got to play them and and you have a horrible defendant but there's no other way to advance

that ridiculous self defense theory well is that true I mean if you had been her defense attorney

what would you have done not write a tell-all book get this barred we'll get to that um what would

I do oh probably what happened here I would um it would be obvious painfully to me that my

client is guilty as they come and I would say to that person um first of all there might be offering

you life um you might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty try to persuade her

that her chances are very low of prevailing um she the narcissist would say I'm not gonna be convicted

so I'd go and I'd say okay and into myself professionally I'd say winning is defined by doing

everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client whether they say guilty

or not guilty is not in my control and so testifying is her option she wants to testify she testifies

in other words yeah I might lose this case and you know what I'm fine with that um this is the

problem I mean basically you try to cut a deal with a client like this because there's just no

question you that's the jurors are gonna find her guilty um one Martinez was the prosecution

and I one thing I do remember is you did not like him you did not like the way he behaves

listen the main reason why I accept the tributation is because I get another crack at talking about

his cross-examination okay so let's set it up before before we play the sound bite of that um

he had two weeks to present his case it's kind of open and shut what should he have done

what what would you have preferred to see a prosecutor do okay ready and I'm talking to the

Murdoch uh prosecutors you know everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades

and they did good things I'll give him credit for that I'm merely talking about cross-examination

which is an art form I have taught my students that you don't wing it you carefully craft

every single question that you're going to ask knowing that it could go this way or this way

and then you are ready with the follow-up is in the fact that on such and such a day you said this

and you boom boom boom boom and it's a lean filet mignon you don't present a big fatty steak wandering

around hey mr. Martinez your ego is not your amigo you don't get up there and make it about you

you don't take days you don't you know try to grandstand like he did I thought his cross-examination

was horrible and people are gonna say oh you're jealous this and that I'm not I don't care I wish him

well I'm simply saying that it was a a a D minus on the scale and I'm telling you this don't go by

the outcome this case could have been won by by rookie prosecutors I'm talking about how he did

on cross both he and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross-examination yes I said it publicly

again I know I agree with you and now I have to tell you I listen to some of these friends of the

Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and they're like oh people just didn't get it they just

didn't get how brilliant that cross was like no people know how to do a proper cross examination

and they could have but it would have been over and done with had they done it properly they let

him go on there was a chance the jury could have bonded with the guy they took unnecessary risks

in that cross of Alex I agree with you okay so here's one you don't take credit because the guy

neither the guy or in this case Jody looked bad oh look at me I made a look bad she would have looked

just as bad without the opportunity to then explain humanize go on and on there's no need for that

there's no reason to take a risk on a single question good lawyers carefully craft everything

we think about everything we're doing these guys look like they were winking it and they were

that's unacceptable and you stay in control the whole time you're the one who's speaking

that witness is just there to say yes or no that's it you are the one who's telling the jury

the story they're really listening to the prosecutor with limited exceptions when I know no matter

what they do or say they're hanging themselves so every now and then I'll throw that in just to

switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points for them

well here's let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez here is the prosecutor one

trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming I dropped his

camera then he came for me he chased me that's why I had to kill him here's just a little bit of

that exchange and then I'll play the the fight to your one man if you would my stand up to the left

and show me the posture of Mr. Alexander immediately before he rushed to record it to you

as he was going to just show me that's what I've asked you to do not talk show me

show me the linebacker pose you got down and well show me show me the linebacker pose that's

what I'm asking for you to do okay he went like that and he turned his head and grabbed my waist just

like that crap pretty much and grabbed your waist right I can't say it's just like that that's what I

remember not just I want without talking just show me the pose you got down like that like that

all right go ahead and have a seat then he's already annoying

Megan let me add him okay first of all nobody likes a bully and I'm telling you I've actually

during jury selection excuse jurors one woman I saw when I was speaking because I was like

you know I turned to this woman I said you know you said you could be fair to my client

but I'm really wondering ma'am I get a sense that and I really questioned her very firmly

because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan of being fair

there was a tear that fell down from her eye and I realized in that moment I asked her go is everything

okay she goes I don't know it's just your energy like I feel like you're and I realized oh my god

I'm too much for people at certain times similarly what Juan Martinez is doing is being so overly

aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain jurors off there's no reason to be that

way in a case like this that's the first criticism I've got more with what I just saw okay there's

more coming I'll play another sound bite and then you can resume there was this tense moment where

she got after him for his style you know you got to the point where she actually had to call him out

here's a little bit of that on slot seven what factors influence you're having a memory problem

usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the same

so that affects your memory problem right it does it makes my brain scramble so you're saying that it's

the cool it basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that you can't remember

things that are going on it's not your fault I'm not saying that you're saying that isn't it no I'm

not saying that is there something about a certain decibel of the voice that creates problems

decibel tone content sort of a combination of those factors

go ahead it's so horrible and the public doesn't understand because they don't see great cross

examinations when they're watching these high profile cases I haven't seen it recently there's

been some examples there's some exceptions none that come to mind right there's a deep Johnny

Depp's lawyer with what's that which one Johnny Depp's lawyer cross examining Amber heard

very effective probably I'm trying to remember remember I can't remember her name she became

star she's now an NBC distributor met with she did it exactly the way we're discussing it was

textbook market was isn't this true isn't that true and then you did this and then this isn't

that true misheard no honor please direct the witness to answer my question and not not to go on

like this you know she controlled the witness what's what's her name Steve Camille Vasquez yeah she

was good she was solid I agree so two things one in the first clip that you played you're asking

the defendant now to give her version again giving her another opportunity to then display for the

jurors why she's not guilty I would never do that I just make fun of it and the second clip you

look at him he doesn't have those questions prepared he's just winging it that's what a rookie lawyer

does or someone who doesn't do cross examination it's not to say there's not room for spontaneity

but I plan my spontaneity I know that sounds like a contradiction but that's what I do you

sell like a great hole like a great person to hang out with for a wife not always I'm talking about

not in the bedroom in the courtroom come on and on three okay let's talk about the fact that

your friend Juan Martinez in addition to the defense lawyer have both been disbarred since then

they both lost their law licenses yeah yeah different reasons but can we back up a little bit

because we yeah we left out one of the biggest things in the trial well yeah I'm not done with a

trial but I do think it's interesting that your friend losses law license and I think when people

look at that cross examination it's very interesting to know quoting now on the AP

that Martinez was accused later this is why he lost his law license of leaking the identity of

one of the jody areas jurors he leaked the identity to a blogger with whom he was having a

sexual relationship then lied to investigators about it that's what he was accused of and

of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his office he chose not to defend the charges

and consented to disbarment and what's happening what are you what are you doing

it's it's a fog maegan like jody areas don't you remember she was in a fog

what you have been crops out for you come on you got dry ice in your office

it's a little machine I gave to my son for like 13 birthday but so appropriate really when

we're talking about the fog and how jody areas was in a fog she didn't remember anything don't

you remember the famous fog come on yes she was in a fog okay a lawyer too all right chill

the lawyer too is it a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks to the point

where they were they had to run he was staring at the chest of some female employees in the county

prosecutors office look them up and down as they walked away some female employees would hide

in the bathroom duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering Martinez he got

fired after 32 years as a prosecutor then lost his law license that's the man I'm going to have to

tip of the hat your instincts were dead on what an unsettled pig you know I read it to my wife

she's like ah what a horrible and I looked at it from her perspective and and women don't like that

you know an horrible place to be you know we're we're all day long you have this guy staring at you

and he's not subtle and it's just it's just horrible you know I know it's creepy well so you I

mean I think your instincts were dead on you understood this is not a good lawyer and this is

not a good man and you had a revolt in watching him that was well placed but the the evidence was

so strong against her it didn't wind up hurting his case he did ultimately get a confession

on the stand which was rather helpful I mean we knew that she killed him because she was claiming

self defense by that point but here is the moment of confession on the stand when she breaks

down Saudi would you agree that you're the person who actually slid Mr. Alexander's throat from

ear to ear yes would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper

torso yes and you're doing all of this to into according to your version of events

you're doing to this individual after you have already shot him right yes

what do you make of that again Megan that was her whole theory she was admitting that she did

the abhorrent acts for what she's accused if anything he could have artfully said all right just

so these jurors are crystal clear the first stab that went into his body you did that not too

strangers that you initially said these two intruders right then another jab and then another jab

this went over here by the heart that was you not somebody else and then he could have gone on

and on and on about every stab that she did and then it to really highlight the brutality especially

since he's going for the death penalty after so you really want to highlight it the best he had was

you stabbed him in the torso yes yes no 27 times and then you did this or that whatever order he

wants that was you're giving him credit and yeah okay he did that but again it wasn't the most

effective he lost a huge opportunity that's a good point drive it home and I found the medical

examiner's testimony that I was looking for earlier Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds

and said the slash wound to Travis's throat was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal

cord in the back of the neck had two major vessels that had been sliced he would have lost

a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes

later and then of course she shot him as well but he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands

that must have been before the fatal injury so the guy fought for his life he must have been terrified

this person he trusted who was you know he was undressed with had had this interlude with surprises

him in this place that's supposed to be you know in violet the shower my god so you're right and

his failure to bring home the brutality did come back to hunt him at the penalty phase yeah I'm still

actually thinking of ways that I would have done this differently I would say I'm sorry Miss

Arias I see that you're crying do you need a moment and by the way Miss Arias were you crying

stab number seven were tears running down your eyes then when you did this were you crying then

okay do you need time I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes but I'm not gonna let her

hide her face in that tissue and put on that act Miss Arias can you look at me I'm asking you some

questions if you need time I'll give you some time she's hiding her face the jurors need to judge

her credibility your honor assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to you know control her that way

I'd go sidebar and say judge their judge she's hiding her face I want them to see her face she needs

time I'll give her time but I'm not gonna let her bury her face when I'm asking her to talk about

the most intimate of brutality that she committed no way that's a good point does anyone have a

scrunchie who's got a scrunchie let's get that hair back no you're right there was that was clearly

a tactic well the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for it they say 18 days

18 days between direct and cross examination many felt that was a tactic by her defense lawyer

create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not vote for death do you agree that

was a strategy 100% and let me just say this I just finished a federal trial my client wanted to take

the witness stand my direct was extremely long number one I'm humanizing my client number two

there was a lot to talk about right number three it is difficult when they don't know who your

client is they the prosecutors will always call them the defendant I'm here to humanize my client

and yes in that case they want to slaughter her they want to kill her right the ultimate sanction

so that serves a purpose kudos to the product for the defense lawyer not the prosecutor the defense

lawyer I don't care how long he takes as long as it's productive and it's routine they've rehearsed

it all it's choreographed she could look great undirect long long long long cross not the same

what do you mean cross needs to be tight it needs to be planned out it shouldn't go for a more

than a day and certainly within that day I'd say a few hours you can make your points that's it

okay you don't want you don't want to print one Martinez show this isn't about you dude stop

making it about you you don't want to prolong the relationship between this person and the jurors

anymore so then then the defense lawyer did on the direct all right so the jury gets the case

uh ultimately the jury was read in court here's a sound by nine the state of Arizona versus

jody and areas verdict count one we the jury duly and paneled and sworn and the bobbin had

action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first degree murder guilty five

jurors find premeditated zero fine felony murder seven fine both premeditated and felony

signed before person is this your true verdict so say you want to know

I mean it wasn't a shock she actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict what it wasn't

a shock to anybody don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever she just did to

how you and I she's in a whole different area code psychologically I don't know what that was

I don't right we don't there's more acting well then then we moved on to the penalty phase will she

get life in prison or will she get the death penalty and that is in Arizona is up to the jury

at least on the initial go round and so the the jury had to wrestle with that she got to

say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix the week she was

found guilty listen to this sought eleven I believe death is the ultimate freedom so I'd rather

just have me freedom soon as soon as I can get it so you're saying you actually prefer getting

the death penalty to be in prison for life yes then here she is a way addressing the jury yeah go

no no no make it come on that was brilliant do you like it all some in manipulation that's

what Nicholas Cruz should have done I want death you know for killing all those kids at Marjorie

Stelman Douglas again it's reverse psychology she doesn't want to die she doesn't want to get

death row she's going to be the queen in prison she wants to live out her life and so she just does

the twist that's the ultimate manipulation for that I'm sure hmm so she she did it with the jury

as well here's a couple of sound bites have heard addressing them we'll start with sought 12

this is the worst mistake of my life it's the worst thing I've ever done you think it's the

worst thing I ever couldn't see myself doing in fact I couldn't have seen myself doing it before

that day I wouldn't even want to harm a spider I'd get them up and cut some

to this day I can hardly believe I was capable with such violence but I know that I was

and for that I'm sorry for the rest of my life probably hunger

oh lord all right let me add on to that one I'm afraid I've heard make it be feel guilty for killing

spiders very offensive I don't and number two come on I was she's again she's I see how manipulative

she is I keep coming back to that word and she couldn't drum up any real tears either it's like

if you really are unjustly convicted it's so you you just look and sound entirely different

here she is uh wait I want more thing bothers I gotta get these things off I'm sorry to keep

interrupting but like if I don't I'm gonna think about them later please mistake it can't stand

people called like something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out and as you know just

gory as a mistake right 27 stabs like like hit which one the Holocaust you know an inconvenience you

know a minor blemish on my record you know like that minimizing things it's not a mistake

right that's a good point like what what was the mistake the three inch you know cutting of the

corroded artery after you stabbed in 27 times like the number number two through 26 those were

like in any event um now here she is asking them for uh well you'll listen you'll hear stop 13

I've made many public statements that I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison

each time I said that though I meant it I left perspective until very recently I could not

have imagined standing before you all I'm asking you to give me life to me life in prison was

the most unappealing outcome I could possibly think of I thought I'd rather die but as I stand

here now I can't in good conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them

asking for death was chance and not to suicide either way I'm going to spend the rest of my life

in prison it'll like to be shortened or not

she was pointing to her parents when she said because of them so change of heart mark

yeah how convenient I just that's just so silly I mean I think to say I think I've said it

already manipulate this person is a household name I mean think about that this woman is a household

and most people in America know who Jody Areas is because the media took to this case like

Maude's to a flame she was the star she's a sociopath you can see it's fascinating to see the mind

in in you know working like doing its manipulation and you know what it worked because the jury

ultimately did not sentence her to death they were it was a hung jury and then they brought in

another jury to try to decide and they too could not decide I'm giving her death and without

any unanimous vote for it you don't get it and that's why she got life in prison without

the possibility of parole where she is right now what we don't know is the split right was it one

loan juror was it a few likely was a few because you know there was a lot of mitigators I didn't

see any of that testimony but you know the lack of priors I don't want to start naming them because

it'll look like I'm being sympathetic but whatever the defense said there was stuff to work with

here you know the crime was especially heinous atrocious and cruel and cold calculated and very

premeditated this the good state had that going for them you know everything else you know the

mitigators it was probably a couple of years ago she should get life instead and and that's it

they only needed a few there I mean is it true that generally they don't like to give you the

death penalty if it's just one murder as opposed to a serial killer or like the guy who takes out

his family you know something like that there's that statistically you know how many women actually

get the death penalty you know it's very rare and don't you tell me that looks don't matter and how

she acts they people consider that they just do so we talked about the fact that the prosecutors

now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing her lawyer too is now disbarred what did he do

this bothers me another reason why I was I was looking forward to doing this this really bothers me

so he writes a book a tell all and included in that book are intimate details that she shared

with him while he was representing her he then writes this book and you know she's objecting to

it naturally and apparently they knew about it the bar did and said listen you're either going to

for putting this out there your idea of two options one will suspend you for four years but you

cannot then put this book out there or you can lose your law license forever give it up and then

you know obviously then you'll be free to publish that book he chose option number two I'm not

gonna out anybody my wife who said good for him for putting that out there because I'm sure many

people feel that way and I was so upset about that because yeah do I care that Jody Arias's

thoughts are put out there no because I don't like Jody Arias but it's so much bigger than that

he is eroding the attorney client privilege where now either my clients or other future clients

feel like wait is this gonna be the lawyer who like that guy that Nimrod you're gonna put it out

there in some book to capitalize and then that doesn't give any confidence when anybody goes to

speak to an attorney I'm really bothered by it yeah I mean it's amazing that the two of the main

cast characters in this cast wound up disbarred and the third the true star is behind bars for the

rest of her life without the possibility of parole there have been some reports that behind bars

she's in a medium security prison she's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her

jail cell mates um lifetime is actually just now 10 years later coming out with a docu drama

about Jody Arias and in the case and gets into some of that like her life in jail we managed to pull

a clip mark eyeglarge for the entertainment of the audience here's a bit a lifetime original

movie ripped from the headlines Jody Arias killed Travis Alexander Jody Arias Jody Jody

Jody Arias I'm Jody you know her name it's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom

there's a worse we do what we have to do but not this story when you get out maybe you can help

me get the word out about my innocence sure whenever you know I thank god for you I knew you came

into my life for a reason it's based on a true story there is no question Jody Kale Travis

Alexander this January everything said it was a lie I was worried that if I told you whatever

they happened it was you it's in the past now and I love you I can't defend you

did you believe she was innocent yes was she innocent oh no I feel like you betrayed me

I love you if you bad-bearing bars Jody Arias

bad-bearing bars she's manipulating at the jail social media posts all sorts of bad stuff

good casting I mean you know I was like wait that looks like her no um what what happens

in a medium security prison how are you able to make friends and you know tattoo one another

and do social media yes she's probably living a pretty damn good life number one medium security

she wasn't high they they brought her down a medium so that's much better for her orange is a new

black you know and then secondly she didn't kill any children you know in the pecking order she

killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her at least that was her story

so in prison you know she's at the top of the pecking order and with her manipulation and beauty

she's probably living large and when I say beauty I use that in quotations I'm talking about

objectively to others I know she's using that for her own benefit is it is is it possible to have

a co-ed prison because this is where I get confused they said she met somebody named Donovan

Bearing while serving time uh Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa

County jail where there were cellmates for six months other both girls okay then this duo

became really close and stayed in touch afterward Donovan who I guess is a girl and Jody they stayed

tight then they were at Estrella another prison where this other gal Tracy met Donovan for the first

time they got romantically involved they then say by their own admission Jody used her good looks

and sexuality to get what she wanted and inserted herself into their union as well although they never

engaged in actual sex acts together she wants to live at a strip tease with Tracy for Donovan

and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted a lone time together from getting

them to manage her social media accounts again why does she have them to ultimately officiating

their wedding ceremony she did it all for the couple quoting from the cinnamaholic.com so all of

this is document I mean on and on it goes mark once a master manipulator always a master does

and she has nothing but time on her hands she's playing all those games and I too by the way found

it confusing a person like Donovan she would have to do how that happened no Donovan's a female

and then you played along and you figure out what happened I think as an aside I read she's got

something going on with a guy on the outside and that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out

there sending letters wanting to be with her phone privileges right and then eventually she's

looking to get married to get the conjugal visits that's all going to happen we saw that with

Lyle and the other Menendez that's what they do it just goes to show you though the media still

obsessed with this case I mean here we are 10 years later you don't always do a 10 year retrospective

on every case but I remember coming in this all the time the America was into it and wanted more

more more more more and here we are 10 years later and she's still providing material from behind

bars so what's our what's our takeaway when you look back and say okay what lessons can be learned

from this case anything come to mind okay so number one you never really know anyone do not judge

someone based upon how they look and even when you think that you're a good judge a character

you never know you got to look at the evidence so once you get the evidence that speaks volumes

don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor what they say and how they look which with

coincidentally is exactly what courts are about and that's why they get it wrong all the time

but you know the court of public opinion wait listen to all the evidence and then you can decide

but we don't do that the second takeaway I got is you know I can't say enough about this prosecutor

again he won the case good for him and by winning I mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would

have gotten but his cross examination to this day still is it was horrible I don't even want to

put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor his was not great but Martinez's was to

me offensive you know that that he took a case that was a slam dunk and just took days and days

and days to do this horrible badgering bully and cross so prosecutors beware I'm available you

want to reach out to me we'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case

that you prepare and all the questions are right there and you thought them out that's what matters

you've got to prepare those are two thoughts on top you know that rule is that the jury is supposed

to like you more than the defendant you know that's your goal when you cross examining somebody that

they will like you the lawyer more than the person and that the way to get there is not usually

to berate them to shout at them to telegraph with every question that you have nothing but

dripping disdain for them they know that they know that if you're the prosecutor this is going

to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey but I think first for you to be liked

by a jury or anyone you've got a thoroughly and unconditionally like yourself and I don't know

that one Martinez did well it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy you know he did

such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there and it's it's just always interesting when like the

outward persona one winds up matching with what's going on behind closed doors it sort of it

it isn't an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts I don't believe you can't

ever get ever know somebody my god Doug we need to talk I have to wait to see the evidence I

love Doug too but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be Doug Scott's stuff inside of Doug and

so do you and so do I that's we've never let out not necessarily consciously but sometimes subconsciously

so again all we're seeing and I adore my wife I love her but I love what I know about her

I there's stuff I don't know about her and I love her for that too and I love her unconditionally

but again all we know is what we know that's it turn back on the fog the fog the fog needs to come

I love it Mark I love it it's always a pleasure my friend thank you thank you Megan

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cost down and make health care work better for everyone we see more than numbers we see you

my guest today built one of the most successful vegan food empires in the big apple

but her dramatic rise and fall would become the focus of the hit netflix quote

documentary or so they call it bad vegan a series she says got major parts of her story wrong

by the way this always happens on netflix sarma melngylus has a new memoir it is called the girl

with the duct tattoo in it she aims to set the record straight by laying out what she says is

the real story behind the fame the manipulation and the fallout of her unbelievable saga

sarma hi thanks for being here thank you so much for having me i'm so happy to be here

well i'm sorry that you had an unfortunate experience with netflix but you are not alone

we've covered so many of these cases on netflix where they lure you in and they really do sell

a documentary and it's nothing of the kind it's a mockumentary it's a docu drama it's something

that is not committed to journalistic fact-based reporting so i will give you that right off the top

but i'm super interested to find out what is true um as as i i'm just like to to give a

two-line encapsulation of your story to the audience as i understand it you're very well educated

you went to Wharton you worked at baristerns being capital then you went to the French culinary

institute you learned how to be a serious chef you opened up this banger of a restaurant with raw

food pure food and wine everyone in New York loved it was going really well and then you met

this man this man who came into your life who was somewhat sketchy and notwithstanding your

sophistication bit by bit he eroded your sense of self your understanding of what was real

and before you knew it you had lost everything is that a fair summation of how this thing went down

yeah that was an incredible summation that was you know better than i can do it in a concise way

but yeah that's what happened and what i've learned is that my story was an extreme version of

something that happens to people a lot more than people realize and i know this now from all the

messages i've gotten in my DMs since the show came out and since it became much more public is

that this type of manipulation can happen a lot more than people realize and it also can happen

to men and women alike and so part of my telling of the story is to um you know is to really help

educate people how it happened and that was the most important part that the show on Netflix

left out and that the filmmakers left out is any explanation of how this happens which is what

would allow people to help protect themselves and which is so unsatisfying because what's most

interesting about the story to many of us is how someone as sophisticated and well-educated and

successful as you would fall for this guy's lies yeah that's what we all want to know right because

in our heads we want to say oh i would never but i mean i have covered enough of these stories to

know don't ever say that because nine times at a 10 the person being targeted has a bio not

unlike yours for some reason these con men go for the sophisticated smart types yeah absolutely

it's you know the similar with cults you know they they actually need somebody who's got a certain

level of intelligence because it's almost like you can't train a you know you need you need somebody

who's got a certain level of intelligence to be able to pull off this long slow manipulation um

and i mean i've spoken to people who have PhDs and clinical psychology attorneys even who've been

had their world turned upside down in a way that they never expected and so again that's what i

write about in my book is really taking the reader along with me through this sort of nightmarish

journey about getting manipulated over time and really trying to um you know as honestly as i could

even in places where i felt it didn't reflect well on me to help people understand how this happens

and also the psychology behind it and that's really also what was left out of the show

to have you ever have you ever heard the story of i'm gonna mess up her is it Anderson

Benita is her first name NBC journalist who got lured in by this doctor who said he had figured out

a way to do prosthetic uh Benita Alexander uh to do prosthetic uh tracheas on people and

long story short he was a big fraud and he convinced her that they were going to go and be married

in Rome by the pope even though she was divorced and also she if she's a newswoman you can't

find more cynical mofos than news producers and she got lured in and and what she said at the end

so i'm at something that you of our interview you might relate to which was because she's also very smart

he needed her to be smart because that's where the jones came from like it wasn't gonna be fun for him

if she were to yes mark yes i mean part of what i think part of why this can happen is because

certainly you know whether it's my wiring or whatever it is but i almost couldn't it's like i

couldn't fathom that somebody could be so diabolical and also his motivation it wasn't that

clear because you know it's not like in the end of this he walked away with all of this money

that he took from me he just you know spent it gambled it away that wasn't the point for him the point

for him was the thrill that he and people like this get from the takedown you know because

yes not a psychologist but when you're wired a certain way and you don't have empathy and you go

around in this world it's like life is a game and to manipulate people is i think what gives people

like this arise and so you know again the bigger the takedown the bigger the high they get i

suppose and that's really the point of it is is the destruction well and i want people to remember

this i want people to remember bonita again a hard knows mbc journalist who was doing journalism

at the you know the toughest levels he can who was convinced by this fraudster that the pope was going

to marry them in the Vatican not saying the fact that she was divorced and that bill clinton was

going to go and Barack Obama was going to go and the only reason she found out it was all a lie

as a friend at mbc was like bonita we checked the president's schedule he's not going even the

pope's not even going to be in Rome on the date of your wedding hello and the in sort of the mask

finally started coming off and she started realizing she'd been totally manipulated so the point

is simply while the lies may sound so obviously outrageous to those of us on the outside these fraudsters

build slowly to gain your trust and control over you before they really start with the huge

whoppers to where you know you're really believing what looks like to the outside world obvious

nonsense but when you're in it you're so far removed from your original self it's it can happen

so yeah okay let's talk about how it happened to you so you're you did the corporate stuff using

your warden degree and then like everybody you decided you hated that you go to culinary school

you open up this raw restaurant and it's a hit it's like doing really well in Manhattan this is

what the early odds yeah it opened in 2004 and it was a beautiful restaurant what I was so proud of

is that it wasn't a restaurant for you know it was a raw vegan restaurant it wasn't a restaurant

for vegans it was a restaurant for everybody and you know the food that we made now I realized

kind of how ahead of its time it was because this was 15 years ago and it really was about

clean ingredients so would there were no fake meats there was no processed food whatsoever so

you know and there were no you know 15 years ago there were no seed oil so it was really about

showing people how incredibly good really truly clean nutritionally dense food can be not just

in the restaurant but through the brand one lucky duck where we had products that were sold through

whole foods and kids loved them which meant a lot to me so you know and this was my whole life's

purpose it wasn't like I just started a business and wanted to make money this was my life's purpose

was hopefully being able to have a positive impact and you know it was a beloved restaurant because

people came there and there was you know it was very important to me that there was zero judgment we

weren't dogmatic about anything so half the staff or more probably weren't vegan most of our

you know half our customers it wasn't like that there was no you know we weren't like a noingly

dogmatic about it there was no judgment whatsoever it was just sort of showing people how good this

can be and you know we were doing great with it and and I had all these opportunities to expand

and take it global and open in other locations but I was running it on my own in a way and very

overwhelmed and I now understand more about my psychological wiring too that um you know I just

I always needed a trusted partner to help me grow the business and I didn't have that and I was

overwhelmed and then also went through a painful breakup and was at a particularly

vulnerable vulnerable moment when this man slid into my DMs that they can smell it they can smell

vulnerability they absolutely know how to explain women who are down and it can go the other way too

but it's in this case it's a man taking advantage of a woman all right so right you're just

out of a relationship that didn't work out you're growing your business but that's tough it's

challenging on any individual and but it's succeeding and there's a little bit of this I'm going to

show some Netflix clips because it's just interesting how they documented some of the we can see the

B-roll of the restaurant and so on let's take a look at sought 51 which is about the beginning of

your career my undergrad major was economics and I feel like I got there by process of elimination

so I went to UPEN Wharton and Philadelphia I think what happened is when I was there it was like

what is everybody else doing everybody's gunning to go work and invest in banking I got hired by

bear storms somebody that I'd worked with said to me do you really like this work I mean this is

what you really want to do and my first thought was do you like it I don't do people like it

he sort of confronted me on that nobody else had really done that he said you seem to be

interested in food people that I worked with had subscriptions to the Wall Street Journal and

I had a subscription to gourmet magazine and food and wine that might have been a clue I wasn't

going into the right field I left after a year and a half at that time I wasn't under any

pressure to get a job financially so I went to culinary school I finished at the French

culinary institute in 1999 and then focused on working in food now I understand you don't love

this clip what is it about this that's off well that clip I didn't have any issues with it was

the the parts that I had issues with were mostly what they left out of the series including

any explanation of the psychology of it and and then they misused a call at the end and they

they move they actually move my words around so hold on because the audience isn't ready for that

yet we will definitely get there okay so there you are that you're making the restaurant the

the documentary clouds attention the fact that Tom Brady Jacelle Alex Baldwin came in and actually

wound up hitting on you but you weren't really in a place where you thought you could do that this

is before Elario at least was like there was some sort of a vibe going there it was potentially

an option but didn't happen I mean he's got his own issues but they're not quite as bad as the one

you the man you wound up with so then enters the guy who is kind of the other star of the Netflix

documentary who was going by Shane Fox but actually has a different name Anthony is it progress?

no uh his name his name was Anthony Strangerous he's since changed it to Anthony night

sorry he's changed it to Anthony night which I always point out just because if anybody out there

comes across a dude that a very large dude uh named Anthony night he's he legally changed his name

I think to try to hide further yeah how did you meet him what was his name when you met him?

well he said his name was Shane Fox and I met him through Alec Baldwin through our Twitter

conversations which is part of why you know I write about Alec in my book and our relationship

and then how oddly enough I met it was just through DMs and Twitter Alec had just joined Twitter

and I think that this guy just got lucky enough that he got there early and so Alec followed him back

which in a way gave him at least some kind of a credibility that made him a little bit more

I don't know legit so I wasn't quite as suspicious as I as I might have been otherwise

and that's something that people like this always look for is any kind of sort of validation that

they can get and how did he explain to you that his name wasn't Shane Fox? um well that came out later

but you know he crafted this whole sort of persona that he you know worked in these clandestine

operations which of course is the perfect cover if somebody's a con artist because you know

they have an immediate excuse to not explain anything um and so eventually I found out his real name

but when that happened by the time that happened I was already ensnared and uh and and also by that time

it was as if you know well of course that's not my real name of course I have to have you know

different identities because of what I do or whatnot I mean a load of crap but at the time

I was sorry but did he love bomb you because usually that's what these guys do

yes in my case it wasn't so much love bombing as it was more like validation bombing because

what this man did it wasn't that I was so in love with him or it was about some sort of romantic

delusion it was more that he knew he had clocked me as somebody where what meant the most to me

in the world was this business and what I wanted it to do for the world and and then at the same time

he figured out what all of my weaknesses and vulnerabilities were and so what what people do

like this and I think cult leaders do this as well as they they present to you your goals and ideals

and and the best version of you and what you want to be ultimately and and then somehow attach

themselves to it as if the only way to get there is through them so I would say in my case it was more

like I was like a validation bombing like sort of overwhelming me with feeling like he recognized

and understood what I wanted to do and understood all of my hopes and dreams and my frustrations and

that he would be able to remove all of those frustrations and enable me to grow my business

into the business that I wanted it to be without you know the influence of sort of unsavory investors

or because I was in a position where a lot of people wanted to come help me expand the business

but they were not the right people or they were predatory in one way or another.

Well the restaurant industry is is notoriously sketchy and you don't know who to trust.

So I can see how it would be difficult to understand like is this somebody whose money I want?

Is this somebody whose partnership I want? Yeah enters this guy who's charming you didn't then

know about his criminal history or what he'd done to another woman so I get it you're you know kind

of willfully blind to some of these things about him many women go through this when they're

you know first coupling with a man who may be the answer to their problems um but you married him

which was not a good decision um the the Netflix documentary covers that a bit here's a little bit

and sought 52. Anthony would tell me but that two million dollar debt that I'd taken on to buy

the restaurant that's like nothing he just take care of that make that go away.

So he would be there with me and help you know support me to do all the things that I wanted to do

you know it would be protected at least in one significant way financially

and I remember thinking that would be like some sort of dream come true.

I remember asking the accountant would he be able to just give me that money or would that be

taxable and how could we do that and um he sort of jokingly but half seriously said well you should

just marry him and then he can give you the money without yeah without it being taxable in a

taxable situation and very quickly it was like the next day we went and got the license they

have to wait 24 hours and it was like boom 24 hours we did it and got married we got married in

November of 2012 so it was close to a year that I'd known him oh so you you're married now yeah

and this was one of the parts where they edited they I mean there was a whole there was two

totally different parts of the interview so it wasn't that the accountant said that and then 24

hours later what we were married what I had said was that he had later subsequently really pressured

and badgered me to marry him saying that I would be protected and it would make everything easier

and it was a whole different part of the interview where I and then I made the point that so I finally

agreed like fine I'll marry you and we went to city hall to get the license and then 24 hours later

we were married so this wasn't even one of the most egregious examples of where they changed the

narrative but this was it was just one that in a way it made me look a bit suspect to the

audience because it made it seem like I just married him for the money that I thought he had

when in reality it was later on and he really badgered me to marry him for for other reasons

what did you think he did for a living I mean that's a good question I write about it in my in

the memoir how you know what he did was always vague and anytime I asked him questions I would always

get vague answers and what he did was drop you know him to say things in a very word-salty way so

you get an answer but it's not a real answer and you're almost left to connect the dots and

figure it out on your own so I know that sounds weird but that's kind of how he addressed every

question that I had about everything so you know and again later on what he did was almost irrelevant

because you know he spun the delusion to such an extent that you know he kind of had me believing

that there's you know parallel realities and nothing is real anyway so yeah what he did was almost

irrelevant so he kind of spun a bunch of bull and but like how long into the relationship did he

start asking you for money because he definitely said he was very very wealthy and that you know

you were going to be super wealthy too but the money only ever went one way from you to him yeah

so how early on in the relationship did that start it took a while before he ever asked me

for money and the first time it was as if it was an emergency like some last minute thing

and there would be dire consequences and he needed my help and I so I you know again on the type

of person where if you need my help and I can do it all do it and in retrospect it was a way of

getting me tethered because then he never paid me back and then you know he would it was another way

for him to get me you know what the show didn't cover adequately too is that this took a really long

time and multiple times after I first got to know him I thought all right well this is it you know

something feels off about this guy and my gut was telling me something feels off about this guy

and so I tell myself I'm gonna cut off communication or I won't see him again but once he'd borrowed

that money it was like a tether so then he would say well I'm gonna pay you back so

you know let me come back and see you this weekend because he didn't live in New York so he

always when he came he was coming from out of town let me come back I'll pay you back and so

I'd agree and then he'd do whatever you know mind sorcery he did that somehow by the end of the

weekend I'd have loaned him more money and and over time I just got in deeper and deeper and

you know he always had these ever changing stories about how he was he had money but he didn't have

access to it or he was gonna have it and again it just got deeper and deeper when you had given him

I mean the the final numbers a lot bigger than this but when you realized you'd given him more

than a million dollars did the light bulb go off like was there any point when the numbers got

huge that you were like what am I doing the biggest the numbers got the more terrifying the whole

thing was and again part of what these people do is they they weaponize fear and so

you know the deeper in the hole I am the more I need him to get me out or the way that he's

promising he's gonna get me out of it and so it's almost like you know it's a terrible analogy

because I'm not a gambler but it's like if you think that if you just keep going it's all gonna be

absolved and you'll get out of it if you just keep going that's part of how they you know he

got me trapped is I just I mean how and by that point I couldn't even explain what happened so

if I had walked away from him and gone and ran to somebody and said look I need help I you know

I'm in a bad situation and they said well what's going on what happened I wouldn't even know how to

explain it and that's that's the part that you know it it takes it almost takes having been

through something like this to really understand how it happens so again that's you know why I'm

writing but why I've written this book is to try to help people understand so they can hopefully

avoid it or potentially recognize if it's happening to somebody that they care about or a loved

one and and be able to help them sooner because people around me knew that something was wrong but

they didn't know what was wrong I'd love to believe that your book and do that and that this

segment can do that I have my doubts I think people make their own mistakes for all sorts of deep

psychological reasons they need to pursue this terrible pattern of choices and most people have

to learn individually it's unfortunate but maybe maybe you know we have a shot maybe we'll get

one or two who are happy to hear us and read the book and and feel differently when they get

approached by a guy like this can you just put some color on how he was reeling you in you know like

when I talked to Benita she talked a lot about how this doctor was just over the top with like the

rose petals and the gifts and she had tape of him like my love my love and she thought he was

this world class doctor saving lives with this you know brand new breakthrough technology you know

you could kind of see how you know any young woman to be like this is a pretty good catch

hanging out with the Clintons and the Obama's allegedly yeah but I I remain somewhat mystified

about what this guy had to recommend him like how he mind-wormed into your psyche well a couple

of things one is that because I met him uh through Twitter now xdms there was at least a month

or more before I saw him in person so he was able to sort of do a number on me before I even met him

which was smart on his part because if I had met him a lot of things in my intuition might have told

me that he wasn't right but by that time he'd gotten me sort of hooked on this fantasy and and

what he really did was weaponize my ambitions because I really believed in my business and what we

were doing for the world and he effectively loved bombed me with validation and knew what I wanted

to hear and saying that he believed in me and that you know that my business was so important to

helping the world and helping to heal people and helping to change the way people eat and

that's really what that's really what got me and making me believe that he would help me be

able to realize those dreams forgive me for the psychoanalysis but when you look back at how

you were when you were a little girl have you in retrospect been able to like explain your

susceptibility to that kind of you know your your need for that kind of outside flattery and

and um I don't know building you up yeah absolutely I mean I've I've done a lot of my own psycho

analysis to try to figure these things out and I always tell people the most important work that

you can do is this sort of this deep self reflection and looking at your childhood and whatever

your specific wounds are because even if you grew up and had good parents who weren't you know

abusive or cruel in any way shape or form you know perhaps they're you know emotionally unavailable

in some way or you're not getting the validation you want or you know for whatever reason I grew up

you know I might present a certain way but I really was also probably deeply insecure in a lot of

ways and needed that sort of validation and then on the other side of the show one of the things

that happened on the other side of this show coming out is that people bombarded me asking me if I'd

ever had an autism diagnosis and I thought like that had never occurred to me and so I went and

got an evaluation and ended up getting a diagnosis it used to be called aspergers and now they

call it autism one for whatever reason but that's another thing that shed a lot of light on

whatever it is about my particular wiring that makes me you know that sort of allows for that

paradox of being objectively reasonably intelligent yet also unable to see certain things that

other people might have seen right it's it's almost like a social uh I don't want to say

handicap but like a social struggle that when you have aspergers so social it does not come easy to

you yeah absolutely I mean and I can again and women I think are are better at masking so people

don't see it as easily you know I can I can go out there and talk to people and nobody would

necessarily think oh she has aspergers but yet certain things you know I I certain things

I don't clock people's intentions as well as other people might or it takes me a little bit longer

sometimes to process things and I just walk into interactions and have a default setting that I

trust people and that I assume that they would operate the way that I would which is in good faith

and so I just don't see you know there's a trail blindness and very very very silly I have to trust

no one yeah no one's operating in good faith no I have the same deficiency in some way so I can

understand yeah and I mean I it this wasn't an isolated event this has happened to me there's

like that saying you know fool me once shame on you but for me it's like I have to take responsibility

for the fact that this has happened to me over and over and over again and so I really have had

to do a lot of deep analysis on understanding the how and the why I mean even what happened with

the the filmmakers I blindly trusted that they would make an accurate show and that they wouldn't

have done something that was on the other side of it such a betrayal but you know I mean they

do it all the time over on Netflix yeah I mean in this case the filmmakers made the show and

then sold it to Netflix but Netflix in their market well but Netflix has a responsibility

there the error of it like that they're the ones putting it out there like I'm sick of this

because Netflix is not so many people who even I know it's a pattern do not believe the word

documentary when Netflix slaps it on any film it's always going to be docu drama that I will

never believe them when they say documentary ever get just given what I've seen but let me go

back to the the fraud because when he was I can tell he was taking all this money from you and he

was telling you like he needed it for an emergency and he talked about like they're being kind of like

another side there's some sort of family that sounded more like an ethereal family not like a mob

family not like a family of origin but like some quote family that was evaluating you and you had

to pass these tests and this was after he had ratcheted up the trust factor he didn't just drop

that on you on email one but eventually he got you believing that your sweet dog Leon a pit who

you adopted who was absolutely beautiful and very sweet and who you were in love with

that he could somehow provide immortality for for Leon here's uh sought 54 from the Netflix show

what eventually happens is that Anthony promises her that if she just followed along with the

program he was suggesting kept going along with what was instructed he is going to make both

Sarma and her dog immortal just like Anthony is there was some magical force in play here

and he's already in this special ethereal world because he's passed through the tests

into this new state of being it's like some fantastical magical future where my dog is going to live

forever and like this reality didn't really matter because it would all be reset to some sort of

utopia his happily ever after video is referred to now when people watching this say oh come on

right like that would be a bridge too far yeah everyone knows there's no such thing as immortality

how do you explain that um well what i would say is that you know i think unless you've been through it

the effects of things like cognitive dissonance and over time a ratcheting up level of dissociation

it's not that it's not that i believed things he told me necessarily but they were things that you

can't disprove and so i didn't not believe him i just didn't know what to believe and again he

he had gotten me in so deep that i didn't see a way out and so you start to cling to whatever

solutions and fantasy that they operate you because by this point you're desperate so

again it wasn't so over that he said you know Leon's gonna live forever my dog but

it was all things that he implied and and i think that the more afraid i got the more i dissociated

and wanted to believe that none of this was real because i was in so deep financially i mean the

the most painful part is that this wasn't my money it's not like i had this money saved and he

got it that would have been you know for me comparatively that would have been great if that was

the only consequence the most painful part is that this was money that came from the business which

ended up destroying it and you know all of these other people that were hurt through me was the

most painful grueling part of this whole situation because you had investors you had employees

and yeah you you were not the only one who would go down as a result of all this and you got

money out of my mother too i had to close twice not one twice one time because of all the money he's

sold and he reopened and then i happened at second time and that second time was the last time yeah

yeah well and because he took me away so when he took me away from the city i mean when i was

arrested a year almost a year later nine months later if you would told me that people had stepped

in and the restaurant was still running i would have i would have been relieved but the point is that

the entire time that i was away i never googled what happened or you know whether or not the restaurant

had closed or what happened after i left um and you know again that was something i go into detail

and in the in the books so people can better understand how it happened because eventually as and

and by the way we should cover this do we believe that he was taking all those you know ten thousand

one hundred thousand fourteen thousand dollar checks you were sending him and eventually your mom

was sending him and just gambling it um i believe so again because i think people like him it's not

about the money it would all make much more sense if he had been stashing the money somewhere

and you know and then had just dumped me and gotten on a plane and you know traveled

left the country but he didn't um again i think the point was the takedown and in some ways

it almost feels like the point was to destroy me to absolutely obliterate me and to

you know beyond just the financial side of it but he it's almost as if he wanted me to be so

utterly humiliated and broken and to have burned all of my bridges so that any chance for me to

recover and come back and rebuild would be you know as small as possible and i'm still trying to

do that but he made sure it would be as difficult as humanly possible because not only did he

destroy your business but he destroyed your reputation and no no investor investor is going to

give you money you say this in the documentary now and employees are going to have a

a care or two about taking a job with you yeah well i mean with your employees though i

know you want to add something about i guess did you pay the employees back their back pay uh

yes so i i agreed to participate in the show i i said i just wanted enough money to repay my

employees so as a condition of participating i got the amount of money that the employees were

owed which was uh just about 75 grand and all of it went to them because that's the part that

weighed on me the heaviest because you know of course that they are not getting paid is more

significant than you know maybe a wealthy investor being out some of their money i mean that

weighs on me as well but what happened with my employees weighed the heaviest and you know all of

those people that work there the ones who are available want to come back if i can reopen you

know i'm in contact with so they for me yeah because they knew i mean the people that work there

and the people who wore long-time customers of the brand they knew me they knew that whatever happened

they knew something really crazy happened but they knew that i would never ever ever hurt that

business or the people who work there it's the other way around i would have sacrificed myself

for them and for that business so they knew that it didn't make sense

so then eventually this this i am still unclear even having watched the show

this guy gets you to go kind of on on the run with him you leave New York for 10 months you guys

are down in like Tennessee for some of it by Dollywood you changed your name when not legally but

you started to go by Emma instead of Sarma and he went he changed his name you covered up your

tattoo that had the name of your secondary restaurant on it so what did you think during those

times did you think i'm on the lamb from the law no i had no idea that i was that you know i was

being sought after and at the time i wouldn't even you know of course the what what happened with

the money was incredibly unfortunate but i would have thought it's more of a civil matter not

criminal because you know again you think that to to be a criminal you have to have criminal intent

and i had the opposite of criminal intent in this situation so i didn't think that you know i

wasn't aware of being sought after by by the police but what i write about in my book and what

really didn't come through is that by the time he took me away i was so broken that there's a scene

where he drives me away and i'm screaming in the car and by scene i mean i write about this part

in the book because it's almost the last memory i have is being in the car and when he tells me

we're driving away i was screaming my head off which is very unlike me but like almost like a wild

animal just screaming and he just let me scream and then i wore myself out and it's as if

that was the moment when i just slid into a deep deep level of dissociation and from then on was

in a sort of autopilot and so if you saw me during that time i could function i could you know talk

to a barista starbucks but it's like i wasn't there and that's the part that again it's really

hard to know how that might feel unless you've been through it and so to answer the question what

i was what was i thinking or what was i feeling i wasn't thinking and i wasn't feeling it's like

that's what dissociation is you're thinking and you're feeling is detached so you're just like a

almost like a zombie on autopilot and then the really gut wrenching part is when i get when i

finally was arrested and i write in my book that it took up getting arrested to set me free

you know i have warm fuzzy feelings for the detective who arrested me who's a lovely person and

i think he couldn't see what was going on the prosecutors in New York different story but the

detective who arrested me he recognized the dynamics of what was going on and then once i was

arrested it was the slow process of waking back up into a level of sanity and and coming back into

the real world to me it's it's like breaking a horse yeah it's like once the horse is broke

it does stop mucking it stops trying to get out of the car like it's it's a different horse

yeah or like the elephant that you know they don't realize that they've been set free they've

just been so trained to walk in this one area that they don't or they don't realize that they could

break away you know it is it is like breaking an animal in that way so

what was he getting out of having you in this condition and just with him

during these 10 months on the land because you were out of money now i know your mom started to get

he started hit her up for dough and she did it because she was so worried about you but what was

why keep you in other words once like you were kind of bankrupt and i have the same question

thing where to get like you would think that by that point he would have just i mean he could have

just dumped me somewhere and he could have gotten on a plane and left the country and nobody would

have ever probably gone after him but he didn't and so you know i don't i don't know the answer

that question i do know that he was you know when he took me away he then also took full control

he had access before but he took full control of my phone my devices my email so i was unaware of

him using my phone to text people and using my email to reach out to people and ask for money which

is incredibly humiliating when i eventually got back into my email you know nine months later

however long it was so he was still able to get some money out of people through me and i think

that in the end he realized that somehow the the game was over and i can't really explain this but

i think he it's almost as if i think he might have gotten us arrested intentionally which i

know seems like it doesn't make any sense but i my gut tells me that that's what happened because he

said to me either the day before or even that morning he said to me there's going to be one more

gut shot and i was terrified because i didn't know what he meant by that but he it's as if he was

telling me you're going to have to endure one more really painful thing before this is over and then

boom you know we were arrested and you know which reminds me of speaking of things he made me

endure there's a whole sexual abuse component of this story that they asked me about and i spoke

about in my very long interviews for the for the series but they left it out which

felt really strange to me i didn't understand it at first but i think had they left it in

then the audience would have sympathized me with to the extent that they wouldn't have

able to create sort of a twisty ending and cast out on whether or not i was complicit

what was the nature of the alleged abuse um well i think that you might have spoken to people in

the nexium cult in the past on your show and so the similar thing happened with key thrown

airy and you know they create this dynamic where it's almost as if they make you believe that

this sexual stuff is necessary and something that you have to endure for your own benefit

it's really twisted and hard to explain but i i go into sort of grotesque detail in a chapter in

my book about about what he did because you know i was so repulsed by this man this is another thing

that people didn't understand and that didn't come through in the story is i was so repulsed by

him the last thing in the world i want to do is have sex with this guy who by the way just by which

point by what point were you just repulsed back um i mean it happened over time but it was

reasonably at some you know certainly when we got married it wasn't like we were a married couple

and having sex it by that point i'm sure i had stopped wanting to have sex with him and i

i think that happened pretty quickly but he you know so eventually it was something that he started

to force me to do in a really disgusting manipulative cruel way and it was um you know i mean it was

incredibly painful but it's something that cult leaders do as well and i think it's another

it's like another element i haven't read the book i only saw the documentary so i wasn't aware of

that but what can you provide any color on that like what what what was so awful about i mean i

accept that sexual abuse is awful but if you could just help us understand what you're talking about

yeah well um you know he basically told me that i had to do things i mean there's a there's a

chapter in my book that goes into some gross detail about this where i come home you know i'm

exhausted working my ass off getting the restaurant reopened after it closed because of you know

the actions that he put me through and i miraculously raised money got the restaurant reopened

i'm exhausted and i think that he felt me pulling away a bit where maybe i sensed at that point i

could get away from him and so he needed a way to exert even more dominance over me and so

you know there's he told me to bring a bottle of wine home from the restaurant one night and

i didn't know why because um he didn't drink a lot and he wanted me to drink because he told me

that he was gonna have to force me to do stuff and it was for my own good and you know he had

this whole long explanation which i don't even necessarily recall but by that point it was

you know he had created this dynamic where i have to do what he tells me to do otherwise there's

gonna be horrible consequences you know again what what what what didn't come through in the show

and what people don't understand about situations like this is fear there is so much fear

that you feel like you have to do what these people tell you to do so it's as if he

it's as if somebody said i'm going to have to uh you know i don't know i feel like sometimes if

you use the the r word it's screws with the TV but it's like somebody says i'm going to have to

now sexually abuse you when you have to let you have to let me and so that's you know that's

what happened and that's what i described in the book did did you get a response to that allegation

when you published the book from him uh i mean i haven't gotten any response from i can't even

imagine he's he's off doing what he did to me to somebody else right now there was a show called

toxic that was on discovery HBO um that i ended up i didn't want to participate at first but i

did participate once i learned that they were trying to track him down and figure out where he is

to potentially hold him accountable because at that point we knew that he was doing this to other

people and so they do track him down and he is doing what he did to me to somebody else and he'll

continue to do that he always this is post prison time i should make clear these are allegations we

do not have the proof of that as independent broadcaster either of the sexual abuse or that he's

doing to somebody else but these are summer's allegations here's a shift worth noting better health

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fighting for you he's already been a prison because at the end of this nine ten month stint

in Tennessee you did get arrested it made headlines that it was after ordering dominoes

I mean the short form of this as I recall was like she's not even a vegan they ordered chicken

wings and a pizza from dominoes like she's the whole thing is a fraud she's a fraud that's where

your critics went with it yeah well that would speak to the dominoes yeah that was a tabloid narrative

and I'll point out that even the lovely detectives who arrested me who again I feel very warmly

towards they pointed out to tabloids that were calling him that I wasn't a different hotel room

than him I didn't even know about the pizza I wasn't in the same room as the pizza and so you know

even knowing that information it's sort of too juicy a headline for tabloids to claim that you

know this New York City vegan was arrested because of a pizza again I didn't I didn't even know

that a pizza existed until a girl in jail when I was in the holding cell in Tennessee and she

had seen me on a news program she came into the holding cell after me and said ain't you that girl

that was on TV you know you got arrested because of the pizza and I was like pizza I didn't know

anything about it so again that was just a way that the tabloids want to make a story juicier

for attention to diminish you yeah some of the abuse not sexual but verbal is captured in

the Netflix film we have some of the the language he used over the phone with you captured in

the following sound right here so 55 you know what the fuck in the oil is here I said I do something

do it no no no no it's not how it works I already eaten it up 100 kg on top of everything else

who's been in these fucking rats telling me this and that you're gonna go do this and you're

gonna go do that because now I'm fucking talk to you who's threatening who so I love you I'm

threatening you I got I got chills listen I haven't listened to that in a long time so hearing

his voice and yeah I mean I've like goosebumps right now I think these people have a certain

power that's really hard to understand it's it's there's something about it where it's like they

get you under a spell and in my case one another paradoxical element about this whole situation is

that I was I kept pushing back on him and yet he end up dragging me in and overpowering me over

and over again he was not intimidated by your pushback and by the way there's an ex-wife in the

documentary or whatever we're calling it on Netflix who says he did this to her too except she

had a baby yes and she claims in the film that he said to her you know if you give a baby salt

it will die and it won't be detectable in an autopsy and she said I never let him be alone with

the baby after that I mean like that again we don't know whether that is true it's an allegation by

an ex but if so then this guy's got a dangerous pattern here and one might argue you should consider

yourself lucky to have just escaped with debt the loss of your business self-esteem some anger from

employers and investors and a short stint in prison I mean honestly this could be the lucky outcome

yeah I mean there I you know I say this in all seriousness there were times where I wished that he

had killed me because when I came out of the other side of this the consequences and everything

being destroyed I just felt like what what is there left for me to live for and yeah and he was

never held accountable for what he did to me he spent a year in jail and I ended up having to go

for four months after he was released so he was out free clean slate and I had to go in and do four

months and as he only get a year for all of this he stole one point seven million dollars minimum

from you yeah I mean I saw you know the ultimate damages were higher than that but like how does he

only get a year in jail for that that's a good question you know I I was prosecuted aggressively he

was it's almost like he was an afterthought because the prosecution focused on the business

loss and but there was no he was never charged for what he did to me or to my mother and this

happened you know this was 2016 so I would think that perhaps if it happened now it might be

different on the other side of for example Keith Raynary getting prosecuted for what he did

and the way he was able to manipulate people I think maybe now it would have been different or

had it been a different prosecutor just different circumstances but did he did he plead guilty to

something or was he found guilty of anything um well he he pled guilty we both pled guilty there

was never any trial or anything like that I mean you know I think anybody who's been through

the criminal justice system knows that pleading guilty is something that people do all the time

because it's a better alternative than getting dragged through you know a trial that you can't afford

or the the prospect of the stress of a trial and you know perhaps things not being admitted

into evidence and you end up with even more time and not to mention not being able to afford a trial

so um you know I ended up pleading guilty which was really painful because however they made it

well I'm a deeply honest person and so to stand there in court and have to plead guilty to

something that I had no intention of ever doing um you know what did you plead guilty to

I've almost like blacked it out but you know the words fraud and grand larceny were involved

and that's not me I mean I'm like the goody two shoes who never gotten trouble in school you know

respects authority does the right thing you know my we ran the restaurant I had an accountant

once who I was talking to about doing our our uh taxes and he said well how many of your employees

are on versus off the books and I said well they're all on he said no no really tell me how how many

are off no they're all on the books like we did everything by the book that's kind of there's

just the person that I am and so to well the thing that's strange about it is normally if you're

committing larceny you take the money and then you get a gain with it you do something

I lost everything that will help your life for you know I don't know help someone you love

but what happened here was you were taking money that he was demanding and giving it to him

which he appears to have gambled away which you do not appear to have benefited from at all

in fact it was at great cost to you and the things that you cared about you know like there's

they don't have some Rolex watch right that you you got or some kind of house that you got

you weren't taking this money and lining your own pocket with it you were giving it to him yeah

and even so I mean people know me know that that kind of stuff doesn't matter to me what

mattered to me was the business and um and wanting to protect it so yeah I mean he's the only one

who benefited I didn't that's a nightmare I mean this is just a nightmare I very much feel for you

I know some people are mad at you because they don't believe that you were mind manipulated but

I believe you I've seen this happen with enough people I believe yeah I really appreciate that and um

you know I at least was lucky enough to recover enough of my communications with him that

I have all the backup you know it's like I naively thought that with my prosecution the more

evidence they dug up and the more they were able to recover that it would help me they recovered

a journal of mine where I was writing about what was going on and when I was given a copy of it I

thought oh okay finally like this exonerates me because surely they wouldn't think that

you know nothing logically made sense why would I have torched my own life and um but

you know that's not how the body is going to handle it yeah he's got a long criminal record of

impersonating police officers like a very extensive criminal record and I was completely the opposite

but I just got very unlucky with the the prosecution in my case

so sorry to bring this up but is Leon still alive oh no he passed away a year and a half ago

I was with him when it happened and you know he had a long life he was a pit bull and

he was 14 and a half when he passed away but at least I got to be with him and um yeah that's him

you gave him a lot of love yeah a lot of love but it was here in this apartment yeah yeah

yet another I mean obviously no but like the deluded version of you

chose to believe that maybe he could save your beloved pet forever and of course it's yet another lie

that he told you and so now where where are you and where is he you think he's still doing this

to yet another person because he's out of prison I would imagine the Netflix film would make

that a little tough for him but who knows women do what they're gonna do and and what about you

what do you now what for you um good question I was moved back here to New York which was

you know where what I always felt was home to reopen the business in the same location and then

what I said before about you know I have to take responsibility for somebody that

unfortunately makes a good target and is able to be deceived by some dishonest people that's happened

uh sad to say again and so I've been a bit reeling on how to move forward but I still have

some things in the works and I you know one of the things that these people look for in a good

target is somebody that won't give up and uh and we'll keep going and that is something about

my personality is that I will keep getting up and I will keep going and keep trying and

believing in what I wanted to build the first time around and um so I may be able to pull it off

for it to happen again um and and maybe not what that's really what I can earn if you personally can

earn enough money to fund yourself no one can stop you I mean that would be a great outcome here

even if you have to do catering whatever like do something to use your skills to earn enough money

to open something up even if it's not in Manhattan um that could be yeah and I think you know

another going forward now in my my mission always was around food and clean eating and

healthy living but I think also on the other side of this it's really meaningful to me to be

to have my story be as useful as possible through my book and through speaking out about

what happened and um this type of manipulation that again a lot of people don't realize that

it could happen to them and hopefully so that they might also recognize if it's happening to

somebody to a loved one or somebody that they care about and be able to intervene and um help prevent

somebody going through as extensive as a nightmare as this. Alec Baldwin needs to help you.

Alec Baldwin should fund you a restaurant. I don't think so. Somebody else should control

the finances but why not he was like kind of played an early role on this in a way he was responsible

for meeting this guy. He met a lot of money. He met Alaria at my restaurant so I mean there's a

weird time. I ended up getting I adopted my dog because of him it's a that's another story

that's in the book but there's a weird connection there and it's not you know it's it's a lot of

things just need to go right but for me it's a matter of finding the right partnership and people

that I can trust because um you know it's not that I necessarily would need somebody else to

oversee the money. It's that I need I need guard rails. I need people that are trustworthy and

honest and forthright and that I could work collaboratively with and move forward. So that also

so that I'm well I think it's not it's not for you that you need somebody to control the finances.

It's that anybody who is going to be associated with a restaurant is going to want to see that

it's not you controlling the finances. Yeah or that nobody could get just for this. Yeah for this

next phase out you know maybe when you're at this for 10 years and everybody sees you're you're

good. You don't need that but I think that's all part of rebuilding trust and telegraphing

to the world that you know what happened and you acknowledge it and but you're going to earn

back trust. I think that would be a great start. Anyway I'm a text Alec Baldwin. I'm going to tell

me but I do think he should help you and if not then you help yourself and you you'll you're

very capable. You're well educated. You owe a lot of skills. I think you're you're you can earn

money and help give yourself the next big start you need. I hope you do it. Thank you for telling

your story. I'm sorry this happened to you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it being here.

All the best and we'll see you again. Thank you Sarma. Wow. I'm believable right like what a crazy

story. The book again that she mentioned is called The Girl with the Duck Tattoo and that's where

Sarma aims to set the record straight by laying out what she says is the real story. One note for

you the Megan Kelly show reached out to Anthony Strangus for comment regarding the sexual assault

allegations made by Sarma as of now we have not received a response. Thanks for listening to the

Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

Freight rail does more than move goods. It drives America's economy. Every dollar invested

generates another $2.50 in economic activity spurring growth from farms to factories.

And here's the best part. Freight railroads fund their own infrastructure saving taxpayers

billions while powering the economy forward from reducing highway congestion to delivering goods

safely and efficiently. Freight rail keeps America moving. Learn more at ar.org slash America's engine.

Behind every health care statistic is a person's face paying the price. Big

pharma just increased the prices of 350 drugs. Hospital monopolies are marking up procedures by

300 percent. The drug companies and hospitals set health care prices and they're too high.

America's health insurers are on the side of people working hard to negotiate costs down and

make health care work better for everyone. We see more than numbers. We see you.