Alex Schaefer on Burning Banks, Protest Art & Economic Tyranny | THE WHOLE ENTIRE UNIVERSE w/ Anik Malcolm X Spaces v1

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of what it felt like when when those cops stopped me and then I had homeland

security come to my studio and then that turned into a huge story. I think they

realized that the more that they lean into trying to persecute me the the worst

that they're going to look you know and they look bad and so in. So that's kind

of in a way part of the artwork itself right is the whole the whole story

around it you know it's it's a promise it's an actual artwork yeah and then

it's the whole you know repercussions so to speak you know it's a question

like where did the legal limits lie what is making an example of someone what

you know what is protest all of this stuff yeah I mean it was a fascinating

thing I mean I didn't wasn't thinking about that about every single angle at

the time it was just like I was super into plain air painting for years in and

around that time where you know you take your art supplies out and you just

paint on the street and I was living downtown and I was used to painting on

the sidewalks and having spectators and that sort of thing and working in

and I just thought gosh this is such a perfect mix here this is the chocolate

and the peanut butter to make the Reese's peanut butter and it it just they bit

you know it was it was the whole point was to draw attention and and and just I

think an overarching thing with my paintings is just to get people instead instead

of the powers that be wanting us to be angry and blaming one another and

pointing across from each other we need to be pointing up at the problems right

that's what you know you're being made angry about something like cutting

snap benefits or whatever I mean I really think everything roots at the

degradation of our money I mean I would argue even racism crime like all this

stuff xenophobia is all roots at people are desperate and it's and they're

getting more desperate and if these problems didn't did not exist because of

the circumstances that we've been born into with this system that there would be

a lot more just peace you know peace between each other and peace between

nations and whatever I mean I can't remember who exactly it was that said it

but they said fiat currency was created to wage war you know like Lincoln and

the greenback it goes back to forever because you just you want an easy source of

money to be able to pay for for what you're doing

shit I don't hear anything hello I hear you okay yeah this is Keesa so

amazing to have you on thank you so much yeah I know I hopefully will join us

later he just had to go to an appointment that he couldn't get out of ups and it

looks like we've lost a Nick let me on it that's right let me see if I can

invite him back up he was having some tech problems earlier but we thought we

solved them in our test we did a test and there he is it always I'm not gonna

make him a co-host quite yet because sometimes that causes issues can you hear

me now yes we can wonderful I'm so glad I do apologize for that

little for that little recollection the matrix so we all back we're all set

yeah I'm Alex I'm really sorry I missed a little bit of what you said before

beforehand but I'm not gonna ask you guys right right because everyone else did

catch it yeah yeah we're just talking about just this overarching belief that

that I have that you know regarding my paintings the the point of them is to

get people to direct their fury not at one another and across across the

spectrum but up at the root of the problem right yeah you know and I would argue

that a lot yeah absolutely we have you know like like I was saying racism

xenophobia depression drug abuse endless wars that they really they are

rooted in our monetary system there would be less racism absolutely

it would be pissed off it absolutely it's the it's the other citizens you know it's

the desperation it just like so it affects everything it affects the how

the advertising world works it affects how the the the how culture works and

it's so deeply rooted in everything literally every aspect of the society we

take for granted and it's not on effects are down to the you know these

things you're mentioning you know so the Bitcoin fixes this thing is no you

know it's not just a catchphrase because it is so fundamental

we have we have over generations just assumed as normal you know and I see I

personally see I see humanity as like we don't even know really what true

humanity is because we have endured such multi-generational systemic like

intentional abuse via the system that we actually have no idea we're all

suffering from PTSD to some extent or another right yeah that we don't even

see anymore you know so yeah I you know fully support everything that you

that you portray in your work I think it's amazing and it's also really

interesting to see the response you get to it and I'm interested as well to

ask like and this is something I know I was asking before as well and it's a

very interesting question is the response you get in general public because you

do do a lot of plain air painting yeah and on the way that you've had run

ends with the law because of it uh interrogations and such like um what is how

do people how does you know Joe public respond to seeing you you're

fantasy version of the burning of the burning that's crazy the the last time I

went out a couple of weeks ago to do one on a street um pastors by were like

oh you know first they kind of go this is weird because here's a guy

painting on the street which in and of itself is unusual and then they stop and

they look and then they do a double take and turn around they're like hey whoa you

know the craziest talking about how you know I'm just sort of convinced that

that the banks are just taking a a just completely

ignore means um strategy at this point because anything they do to lean in

and persecute me just makes them look worse the security guards standing in

front of the Bank of America and I'm across the street for like two or three

hours doing a painting right when I was done with what I was gonna do on

location because I do you know I finish them up at I set my ease a lot kind of

right on this almost on the street as close to the edge of the sidewalk and I

kind of get a shot where I can see the see the building and you can see my

painting on the easy uh-huh the security guard gives me a thumbs up the

security. Oh my gosh. I hate banks of America too. Wow that's insane. Well that's

quite a quite an interesting insight right I mean that says quite a lot in

itself. But really on there I know for a fact that there was panic with the

likes the uh friend of mine I've told the story before about you know we got

new years here a friend of mine at a gallery that I used to show at up in L.A.

called the Haya Gallery um he's from Ohio and after New York the biggest

branch that JP Morgan has the biggest offices or headquarters whatever is

in Cleveland and a friend of his was in Ohio and he worked at the Chase in

Cleveland you know it's like a VP okay and so the guy who runs the gallery goes

oh you got to meet the shaper he he does these like burning Chase banks and the

guy his eyes popped out of his head and he's like oh my gosh no way you have no

idea they sent like an email to the whole entire email list of the company

where the picture you and links and they're like if you see this person do not

approach them you know call the police you did not know you know what their

intentions are blah blah blah and I was like no wow they were they were full

panic that's insane well you've made you've made some waves if I was being

like a conspiracy theorist I would know that I after a certain point I got

used as a predictive policing model to train right

policing where they were like looking at my Google searches looking at where

my phone is and you try to use predictive policing algorithms or whatever to

say okay where's the next bank that he's gonna go because they see me

wow yeah of course yeah yeah looking up stuff oh it wouldn't be me driving by

and checking it out and then you know then I'm literally there and my location

in my phone and what have you and wow no evidence of that that's just like me

being no but it wouldn't happen you know they would be silly not to use

the opportunity right you know I mean it's not really that much of a stretch

instead of predicting where someone is going to try to rob a bank or whatever

just train it to focus on this person you know and try to guess the next

bank that I'm gonna do a painting at you know because it's like a target you

know right yeah yeah yeah and you say you haven't had any sense that that one

major event where you spend time in in jail you haven't had any serious

repercussions you haven't had any yeah any any run-ins with no and the

credit since then so they have been kind of instructed to leave you alone I

believe so yeah the I have a friend one not a friend but you know we're

acquainted with each other and he's another artist and he does like really

realistic paintings of like Ventura Boulevard they're super LA they're very

much tighter than my work booty beautiful light all that and he he would paint

like a Denny's or he would paint a McDonald's or what right he did a painting of

like a nationwide branch chain store whatever with the light and he painted

the sign perfectly and he had lawyers send him a cease and desist letter like

you're violating our what this is our trademark your prop right yeah yeah you

know you have to stop doing this and he was literally I don't know like a more

dot-child than I am I would have said fuck you you know yeah wow he'd stopped

painting the logos like yeah wow is it night with the sign and it's all

beautiful but it'll look like AI wrote Denny's you know we're it like it looks

so really letters or just you can tell what it is because of the colors and

the shapes and whatever but it doesn't actually name Denny's anymore and even

then yeah and he wasn't doing anything threatening he was yeah their logo

perfectly because yeah there are very strict laws about this I mean I know this

from the photography world that you cannot have certain buildings included in

your imagery you know without having paid for it they're very strict

enforcing this if you're in the location even in England and you are you

you know you are portraying recognizable buildings you know what I mean so

and not only that people are hanging in front of them wow that's not I can

I'm reminded of like during because the this whole thing because this was in

2011 right with the with the chalk joins because I was in Iceland at the

time because it kind of the whole thing kicked off in Iceland don't know to

what extent that's known but it was like in late 2008 October 2008 it started

with the the collapse in Iceland which treated this right and so like because

lots of people in Iceland had invested in this or they had got loans

basically there was a lot of anger and people took to the streets on mass which

you know given Iceland has not many people but it's still there was a lot of

people making a lot of noise and I was allegedly quite active in these things

and we were just all sorts of stuff now we were setting huge Christmas trees of

blaze I did a for sale sign which we hung on the on the parliament building and

all sorts of stuff but they were clearly under very strict instructions to

leave us the fuck alone for that very reason right because they would have just

got much more like you know it would have caused much more of a media world when

they had they not done so and we would have become martyrs kind of thing you know

I'm right and so but like do you ever get like people on the on the road kind of

showing disgust thought you do I have never had anyone when I'm painting on

the street be angry or nothing if anything they are standing around sharing

stories of how they've been screwed you know wow wow you're tapping into the

into the public sentiment really well yeah absolutely brilliant when I was

naive back in 2011 you know I literally there I thought there is no way that

this is going to last another three years or something like that I mean I just

never had any understanding of just how much they're going to bail out this

system you know and how things are going to get and how how interest rates are

just going to be stupidly low right and and yet here we are like all these

years later and every time I do one of these paintings and posted on Instagram

or Twitter or whatever X I I get tons of likes and hell yes and and can you do

this bank and can you paint this a lot of that I get oh you got a

yeah in the bank in Canada you got to do that you know but you're quite

brand loyal I see I mean I did the banks that are that are in in the states

mostly I mean I've actually done one that's like a European

but wow you're welcome to come over yeah see test the waters here that's what

the cops like here you know maybe the

huh but it's we sort HSBC they're there

you do an HSBC oh did you oh I got invited to London by Max

Kaiser and Stacey Herbert okay and I did a plain air

painting of an HSBC bank on fire that they actually have that one

so that's so that's oh wow really nice okay cool brilliant

Kaiser with radicalizing I started watching his show and like

it's right after the right after the you know right when the

the collapse began a friend of mine was like oh you got to listen to this

Kaiser report and I just got hooked on it and I started yeah I mean he was

doing his whole buy silver crash JP Morgan buy silver thing

and he was one of the first guys and talk about Bitcoin

so it was he definitely and he's so bombastic and hilarious yeah he

does not hold back he's like a lot of comedians that I've met where

stage they're just super animated and then off stage they don't say a word

they are just yeah complete you would not think that Max Kaiser given how much

of a of a like a carnival barker he is when he's on stage right on stage he is

just like you know stays here I had a I had a real nice meet when I met him in

Osalvo he did a real nice video together with me it was very complimentary

about my work and so I was very on advice he for then some reason blocked me

and I have to I have no idea why and so I have to figure out how to get

myself on block like at a public petition going on

essentially he was super he was super complimentary I didn't quite

understand yes but yeah all sort of like around that time like and during these

protests I was mentioning earlier on this must have been like early 2009 right

the very beginning of 2009 Christmas tree is burning in the background and

I remember thinking to myself like where are the hackers now man now they would

be so effective you know and here we are all these years later so I'm sure

on us yeah that was happening Alex I'm sure you get asked

plentifully about the burning banks but you also have a wide array of other

work very actually I'm going to throw in something it was really nice

seeing when in Las Vegas seeing your your work are close because it does so

it it appears so meticulous you're talking about the this friend of yours

with with Wendy's and so on yeah does much more polished work and like from

the screen versions I had seen of your work they had appeared they appeared to

me so very meticulous and so like hyper realistic almost right and then to see

them in in real life you see this this palette nice style that you have this

plain air very quick approach to it and it's astonishing actually how to see how

how how much yeah how much meticulous illusion you create with this with your with your style

I was very impressed with that and I would like to know like you have a you know you are

clearly someone who has been an artist or a very long time and I would like you to tell

us a little bit about your early beginnings and how you kind of slid into the becoming a painter

full-time oh yeah I mean I take away back yeah I have always been just a huge fan of

the French Impressionists the London School the Bay Area figurative painters

um I love painterly painting right and I always make a painting with the intention that you know

this this might hang up next to a sizz on one day or or whatever I want to just stand up to

the artist that I really admire um and I feel fortunate that I had been I have been a painter

um so long before the the whole Bitcoin thing took off and fortunate to to to connected with

that group and at such an amazing collector base um because um you know I it really it's set in

in my mind I feel like I was a mature artist by the time that it happened as opposed to you know

a young artist that has different intentions you know sorry by the time that which part

happened by the time that that that I kind of took off and became a cause celeb uh and right

and and and and then became collected within the Bitcoin community right um but you have a you have

a professional art history preceding that though yeah yeah you have a graduated art school in

Pasadena in 92 I was an illustration major um I graduated from school I started doing freelance

illustrations for you know mother earth news LA reader um hustler um wow really yeah all kinds

of different magazines I was I was actually just thinking yeah I do like your life work as well

it's super nice you know yeah you'll see more formwork yeah again and part of my practice

and something I love to do um and I I did a children's book even uh over oh and yeah

hardcore brace and company called the wizard um wow you know written by Bill Martin Jr and um

and and then I got absorbed into the video game industry like in 1993

and okay uh that was something that nobody saw coming you know when you were going to art school

you were either going to be a freelance illustrator at least where I went you were going to be

freelance illustrator or you were going to work for Disney right oh really uh huh so it was

either Annem being or freelance illustration wow and the uh the department chair at the time he

was kind of aging out and he wasn't hip to what was really going on and just did not foresee

video games becoming so huge and such a lot of artists you know yeah it was like

Disney and animation was where the artists were getting employed at the time right started making

Sega Genesis and super NES games like way back oh really oh wow and when I graduated we had

no photoshop experience no digital art experience I learned everything on the job

you know I worked at Disney originally and um and because it was so far as evolving right you know

that's evolving it was like on the job training you know here's this per right paint like we

made video games on deep paint with uh wow texture map tiles that were literally 16 by 16 pixels

like that tiny and you're like oh I got to make wood grain oh I have to make it look like

stone wow looks like grass or whatever oh wow and um and so I worked at Disney for about five

years and then I worked about five years at uh for insomniac games um and we did this big hit game

called spiral the dragon and um right I read about yeah and that was like uh you know that that

was a crossover success because it was just popular with boys and girls as far as the animation

and kind of the cute factor uh and uh what sorry what you was this this was like 95 90s okay

and uh and then I stuck around at insomniac games for spiral the dragon one spiral two and spiral

three and uh they were okay all the way successes and uh I was making a lot of money but I always

continued to paint you know and like that would be something that that I would say to to an artist

out there like don't quit your day job you could do both you know right yeah yeah yeah and I really

experimented a lot when I was when I had all of my bases covered in my bills paid making video

games I did a lot of weird paintings that you might not even think oh that's a shaper you know

uh but even in art school I was always painterly and I was fortunate when I went to arts under to have

some real amazing expressionistic painting teachers uh like Richard Bunkle and Dan McCaw

Steve Houston etc and they they really were like you got a gift man like you you can

all you can see you can paint from life and um but like I said when I when I got video games I

I was doing like minimalist painting right uh and uh stuff that that I hated when I went to art

school you know right and did you enjoy it then when you were doing it professionally oh yeah yeah

right uh I mean and and because like I said bills were paid and then some with the house

I was making video games I was able to kind of get that out of my system and then finally come

around to you know what you're like you're a representational painter and you like planar

painting and figurative painting and you like old masters and the impressionists and that sort of

thing and um so I I transitioned out of video games I started uh substitute teaching at my

alma mater and then uh then I got a full-time teaching position at the art center college of

design and I I taught there for like 14 years and I was teaching foundation painting drawing digital

landscape um real nuts and bolts stuff and that's when I really got back into my roots

uh you know because all these young paint all these young art students that are in illustration

they love representation and they love to paint and depict things and what they see and

and what's in their imagination and you know representing the world and so I just I completely got

back into it I started um doing the work again that that that that was kind of I was meant to do

and uh and it was actually when I was at art center I was still teaching at art center when I

did that what those first burning bank paintings when was the first one it was like about it was in

June July of 2011 and then okay remember because it was like two months before the Occupy thing

broke out right okay I'm all straight and then there was Occupy LA and and um it was the zeitgeist

you know right no absolutely yeah just perfectly catching this wave and uh and I and I managed to

kind of tap into it right at the edge and then it just it crested with this protest and it was it

was amazing you know right so it was was it was with those works that you started making a break on

to the like gallery scene or were you there previously as well uh what I'll say about well there

was like I said there was a gallery that I have shown at I think that they just had their 20 year

anniversary and which is amazing for a gallery to ever last that long and so it but it was a

different kind of a gallery you know it was it wasn't like um like a blue chip art world type

a gallery and but still it the community there you know everybody was excited and there were shows

every month so it was encouraging to to work you could rent a little studio space there you could

you could paint there you could even sleep there I mean no one was gonna say and um and especially

you you're you're you had to pass yeah but the um you know one thing I'll tell young artists when it

comes to galleries um having kind of having uh the experience of being in you know a more

established gallery that sells sells my work you know just these auctions and doing stuff with

Bitcoin sales the galleries approach you like you are never going to get into a gallery by

cold calling them with a book of your slides or a thumb drive or artwork if you sit in in a gallery

that's like a big established gallery you will realize oh my god there's just a million like

people constantly coming in artists going oh you gotta look at my work and it just doesn't work

really that's a big gallery in LA after I started doing these burning bank paintings and they

approached me because I'm in depression and that's kind of that in my experience that's how it

happens it doesn't happen right right very very rare or you are friends or you went to art school

with someone who started a gallery and then you're like in the inner circle and right

you're actually a gallery and you're the artist and then they show you and they show a bunch of

their other people right yeah yeah like the little experience I have of the the more establishment

art world because like uh I would kind of recoil from it also with you know we did a little work

together um and I just always just like it I just found it disgusting and like but it was it

you're right it was always by invitation um it was never a case of like hey do you want to show me

it was always by invitation but um you I one of the few people I would say um not few but you know um

who can compare those two worlds uh the more you know the more established gallery scene to the

Bitcoin art world um how would you tell people those two compare what are the nine differences

would you say uh I would say that the the more mainstream galleries you know they're a lot more

um what's the word um conceptual you know they're they're definitely they're they're fed students

that are fed the conceptual art line uh we were my gosh you know and um and really to me it's a

battle between images and words um you know Mars you could argue Marcel Duchamp was the first guy

to kind of um start to deconstruct painting um and have it be about ideas and right and so

um whereas the Bitcoin art world I find is more uh traditional it's it's it's younger I think

yes I could be one of the oldest artists in uh in the Bitcoin art world it's quite

possibly you know I mean I'm an old head when you're 69 right yeah that correct yeah you're I was

born so I've done my research I read on Wikipedia actually yeah wow yeah that happened you know

yeah wow and fortunately people don't don't like edit it with a bunch of crazy shit or whatever

but the uh but you know like I said I feel fortunate that I did come at it at the age that I did

because I feel grounded in my own work I feel like in my own way I know what I like um because I

think young artists they want to prove something to themselves and and they they want to you know

we all have this kind of uh like a a board of critics in our mind and it's like Leonardo

difficulty in Raphael and right and uh Helmock Durer and whatever and um and we we we feel like

we can't do something unless we're able to do something else like oh I can't paint like Manet

if I first paint like you know Courbet or I can't paint like Richard Debencorn if I can't first

paint like like uh Leonardo you know yeah yeah go have to go through the entirety of art history

to be able to get to where we are now oh aren't free thing in in own work and I feel like I kind of

went through that outside of the scene you know you've got a lot of practice space yeah practice

space and able to kind of go oh I like this oh yeah yeah I admire this artist but I'm that is

not my my my nature you know so how's your how's your like popularity then because like

I was having a closer look at your Instagram today and it's like the numbers are quite astonishing

at times um is is that a relatively recent thing then would you say yes and it kind of comes in waves

you know um I mean the longest time it was just you know I had like seven thousand followers or

or you know five thousand I think I remember and I was like wow I got five thousand

hours and um but you know now that I'm at a certain point I have people making compilation

videos about me all the time now it is wow yeah yeah yeah you've become quite iconic

men and it's not something that I tried to do you know it really happened organically I might

have more followers if I paid for Instagram you know right um yeah and uh but it's uh it's just

it's happened and I'm and I'm just grateful you know right um and I was also fortunate to sort of

evolve with the internet you know yeah yeah yeah um and as I have taken leaps of faith to be like

you know what I'm gonna go and I'm gonna be I'm gonna leave video games and security of

the money I'm making and I'm gonna be a teacher um which I always recommend you know people to do

to make extra money or to make money as an artist there's nothing no shame in teaching I hate that

right those who can't teach line it is so yeah no no I mean you were some people were lucky enough

to have an inspirational teacher right and that changed their life oh yeah and it's such a wonderful

thing to be able to do that for someone yeah yeah truly yeah yeah and especially with painters

you learned by watching you know I mean that used to just be part and parcel to how you know

their work absolutely it's like you were a 12-year-old Italian kid and your parents uh let's

you go and live and work with uh Titiado or something like that and mix his colors and clean his

brushes right and then there was like maybe uh an 18-year-old guy that had been there for four

years and and they were stretching canvases or I was about to say you stretch in the canvases yes

so you learned on the on the job you know yeah which is one of the best ways right yeah absolutely

absolutely um do you so like I assume then to an extent that your transition or it's not really

a transition such but your development your progress into the into the Bitcoin art world uh was quite

like like a natural and somewhat gradual one then right like you've got absorbs by it more than

that you're like hey this is me yeah well and it was also I think that the uh that the the sentiment

behind the burning bank paintings was just perfectly in alignment with yeah exactly with the sentiment

uh high end midpoint you know and so it was absolutely perfect a perfect match that was a match made in

heaven actually I use you as an example there are a couple of them the painter friends I have Bitcoin

as who I only know from the internet but like they've become friends over time and uh and they're

very highly skilled classical painters just having a quick look neither of them listening right now

but they I hope they will ascend them this uh and they kind of like they have a hard time connecting

kind of like yeah but what do I I say to them come join in the Bitcoin art world man it's so you know

flourishing and so positive um and they'll be like yeah but I don't you know I don't want to paint

Bitcoin beans or whatever you know I don't know how to make Bitcoin art per se and it's like yeah

but look at this guy man it's not Bitcoin art but it's it encapsulates so much of what Bitcoin

is right and it doesn't need to necessarily be in your face this is uh Bitcoin art painting but it's

like um it encapsulates so much there is so much um you know adjacent stuff like even like apex

of stuff right if it didn't have the bees in it and if it didn't have the direct references to

to to to uh to Bitcoin hidden in the works it would be it would still be Bitcoin art you know

because it's this it's proof of work it's this glory it's this kind of like um uh you know

a long time preference like putting a lot of effort into things yeah um that is just so um

so so uh representative of uh as you know of what we do and what we uh stand for and so

yeah I'm just spending a long time saying basically that the Bitcoin art doesn't necessarily

need to be um yeah two-dimensional assets you know you know the collectors are going to mature

the artist and the mature and it's all happening together it really is a unique

I am in a unique place and um there's always going to be people that are excited and coming into it

and and bring that energy and they're going to evolve as painters as well you know right

um there's a famous uh Matisse quote that I'll I'll paraphrase but it's basically like

you know to the artist who doesn't know how to touch the earth from time to time they end up

going around and around in circles repeating themselves until they extinguish their curiosity

yeah right oh to to any painter I would say now and then do something you know that's just

outside of of your normal practice or you know limit your palette or expand your palette there's

so many things to do to keep yourself fascinated with it I mean right I've always in my mind

there there's two parts to to to art and there's the subject and there's the approach and um like

well don't you ever get tired of like painting Bernie Banks you're doing it over and over

and the thing is like the subject is the same but the approach is different you know sometimes

we're more I'm more realistic sometimes I'm more expressionistic now sometimes I'm experimenting

with with the with the surface and right and and so if you're you know sometimes the subject

part of like thinking of subject matter that and that can get repetitive you know yeah yeah yeah

if the way that you paint as opposed to what you paint if the way that you paint is what is always

the underlying um captivating thing not like oh I want to paint you know uh help me if it's how

you're doing it that that is going to keep you longer you know what I'm saying yeah yeah how does

how does um gum powder perform as a pigment oh I'm sure it's great talking about methods

I think who was his Ed Rusche and I get I get people like oh you like Ed Rusche because Ed Rusche

did a painting of the LA counting museum of artifact okay he did a painting of it on fire okay he

actually did do some some paintings with with gunpowder oh really like a conserva artist okay and did

he then did he then like put it put it to use he uh not that I know of but you probably could

hold a match up to it and the whole thing right like a cigarette paper or something right exactly

that would be kind of cool and a bit graphite sorry you could use it like graphite you know right yeah

I'm sure like a stick of gum powder yeah yeah wow be very cold smoke no exactly no smoke I'm kind of

like I'm thinking of fiat fire again to get him on the conversation and this this thing I was

talking about the other day of curating a uh a plane air uh what was it a plane air performance

artwork between the two of you yeah yeah that was but yeah no this is something that I find

personally super exciting about the bitcoin art space what you were talking about earlier on

it's the fact that it is still so relatively young right and there is actually so much subject

matter uh to be dealt with and there's so many different approaches uh to doing it like we have

fear fire doing his performances we have um uh axana doing her embroidery stuff you know it's

literally um we've got woodwork we've got you know everything and it's so um I'm just really

excited to see how this um how this progresses and how it grows and how it evolves with uh

with the space and with the growing adoption and with the growing you know worldwide presence

all bitcoin um and it has the everything about it it has all the moving parts of of an art scene

you know um yeah like take you know the L.A. art scene there are magazines there are galleries

there are artists there are collectors there are art schools and a scene to exist is

it needs all of that it needs right people writing about it it needs people making the work

it needs people to collect the work people that show the work and without even

podcasters yeah you're part of like you know what I would say writing about it except this is like

right an interview type of show yeah without realizing it all of those parts to a working art machine

have come into fruition without anybody saying or realizing you know that it needs that it needs

to be it's just it just happened right yeah it's spontaneously evolved yeah but I will say that

I remember there's a there's a guy up in L.A. his name is Matt Gleason and um he uh he started an

art art an art magazine in the 90s in L.A. out of like god there's no one writing on all the

magazines are like writing about New York artists and there's all this art happening in L.A. in

like 1989 1990 91 90 to to whenever I can't remember from the magazine shut down like maybe 2014

um and he what he did say you know if you do something and it doesn't happen in the blue chip

art world it's like a tree falling in the forest you know right uh uh that it's uh we still

aren't quote outside or art hmm into an extent you know absolutely absolutely and uh but don't let

that you know don't let that be uh something discouraging to to to any artists out there you know um

because you know to be honest I'm not a fan of a lot of the work that is in art forum and art news

and blue chip art galleries and I think no a lot of those galleries have just become a function

of the financial system absolutely I mean I can uh yeah sorry avoid taxes yeah because you know

and I have a friend who uh who uh got a job working at a art shipping and art handling company

for blue chip art and so he would work with museums and and individuals with million dollar

collections and if you have like a million dollar painting in your home

have insurance on it and you literally cannot move that painting from one wall to another

without a professional art handler because that's your insurance policy yeah right so he was going

into these big homes and he was like kind of seeing the inside of how some of these galleries work

and it is just gauzy like total there's so many lies happening you know where like they'll buy

something for for you know eight thousand dollars but on the wall it said twenty thousand dollars

and so the collector says this is a twenty thousand dollar painting now I'm going to donate this

painting to you know the Sacramento Museum of Art or whatever and I get a twenty thousand dollar

tax tax write-offs yeah yeah yeah paying twenty thousand dollars in taxes and um it's just

there's I don't have a lot of respect for that I'd rather you know where I'm at at the level I'm

at and have it feel like it's real right and what's funny is a lot of these big um you know like

you ever heard of Sachi Charles Sachi yeah yeah absolutely I kind of I learned in London so

yeah it was a very present present name there in the whole done British artist scene right

yeah it was horrible I hated it left his own market with lies and right and a lot of those painters

you know they're just they were like they they were caught up in a wave and and and and their work

doesn't doesn't stand up and and I mean Charles Sachi famously just had his his storage space miraculously

you know he took out a huge insurance policy and he put all this work that was was gonna not do well

um oh really wow on fire and so which brings me

right no I was having visions of like of moment on fire and you know and take gallery on fire

and stuff like this yeah essentially that's the same thing right you know it's just a fiat

machine you know what I mean yeah and there's kind of this uh as in painting painting of them

between those institutions and and financial institutions you know what's that sorry

there's just a fuzzy line between the two right yeah yeah uh oh what is his name uh shoot

a Jeff Coons yeah yeah he was before he was an artist in the 70s he was in finance he was

really and he was going to parties um where there were you know rich bankers and young artists and

they all wanted to party together the artists you know the artists had the the cool space and the hot

the hot uh men and women for these bankers and the bankers probably had the good cocaine

and see through the parties and Jeff Coons literally he said in an interview I was going to these

parties as a banker and I realized oh I'd rather be an artist right and so he just that's not that

says so much man that says so uh he's so he so fits with these giant captains of finance and

industry because that's what they are he is yeah he's not a hands-on artist he is a like a director

he's a director he hires school and they do the work and he goes to the parties and um well it's

it's just become such a tool uh are in general right both a financial tool and a political tool

you know I mean the whole the whole of the pop-up movement having been you know used or controlled

by the CIA back in the day to affect a political narrative right yeah yeah when I and it was

and it sorry sorry well I said when I learned that fact that the seat yeah right was fluffing

these auctions and throwing out canned chandelier bids on paintings and and uh that they were just

doing it as like a uh American exceptionalist propagating a tool against yeah yeah so be it art

that was stuck in the exploding quote it really blew my mind I was like wow I would look at these

Barnett Newman paintings and and gee these are so great minimalist stuff and what have you and

then I'm like wow you know what they just they deconstructed painting they got a bunch of people

that were were in bed with the CIA to write magazine articles about how great it was and uh

right yeah yeah exactly and did they like parling were they easy to lure into honey traps yes they

were you know what I mean yeah it's it's and it was I mean because as soon as you realize this

thing of culture being upstream of everything and how it has been used especially in the last century

in this one now too to affect a narrative right like with the whole hippie movement and everything

that the Tabestock Institute did and all of this stuff you know it's um it just completely

guilt see your whole perspective on all of these things that we hit us him to be grassroots movements

right yeah and then you realize the effect that it's had upon I mean you see the these generations now

the young generations who were just like I mean in in the normal world right who were just like

completely have given up hope they've given up it's just this nihilism has has penetrated so deep yeah

and that's right one reason call it call the art that comes out a lot of a lot of these

um you know East Coast um Ivy League art schools like Yale and whatever they call it zombie formalism

wow wow yeah it's got to be a certain size they can't say anything they're just sort of abstract

I mean I call it hotel lobby art um right right yeah yeah there's so much of that right there's

so much of that it's true yeah and if you're in art because you have giant walls to cover and you

also need you know tax avoidance schemes you are not going to buy you know a 5,000 or 8,000 or 10,000

it has to be at least 50,000 dollars otherwise time and the effort yeah yeah yeah yeah just

these prices and crappy work like Dan Kolen he's the worst you know I don't know who he's you know

he's one of these kind of um he's like the American version of the YBA kind of a bad book

mm okay slap art you know we're right yeah yeah how bad can we do this and you know I'll just do a

canvas that that's just stretched and that won't even be hanging on the wall it's just leave

oh my god this is like I'm it's interesting you say this because I had really observed this in

Iceland because I spent 17 years there right and there aren't seen there I mean for one there

isn't a big enough market for most of them that they can survive off of off of sales

so they're mostly they like Iceland has a program where you can apply annually or buy annually

to for government support and this is what most of the artists live off right and musicians and authors

and etc and in order to get this government support you've got to tell the fucking line right

you're not getting that support if you're doing some anti-authoritarian stuff you're not doing

you know it has to fit the narrative which is predominantly west right it's world you can

like forums down narrative so this is it's all sculpted it's all sculpted and molded by by

this by this narrative and it's all nihilist it's all ugly like intentionally not I'm not saying

that as an objective thing it's just you know it's potentially just ugly and sloppy and fucking you

know yeah nihilist and it's just so sad and I just never wanted to have anything to do with this

and that's why I was so so happy to to discover the bitcoin world right yeah it's like yes

I hope was that sorry it's demoralizing it really is intentionally and intentionally man

and and it really just it alienates people yeah and then they they're like art sucks yeah

like you could do that or whatever and it's supposed in the spider it's supposed to uplift it's

supposed to you know we need to bring it back to them I think we are and you know and I think

yeah we're at the early stages of this um of a very exciting exciting new scene you know

and there you know articles what's the guy called um rice um Stephen rice is that correct

the guy who writes articles and his I think the way that he sees things developing I think there's

a lot to it you know I think that we will be offering an alternative to the to this you know and I

think um with time you know I mean things are going up not the statue but um some of these

and christians and stuff like this you know and I think with time this will be um yeah like a whole

new art movement you know I've ever heard of the stuckest I have but I can't place it now it was um

oh gosh what was there there was some it was one of satchis satchis artists that uh she she

did like the installation of like a tent with a mattress in it oh oh oh um blibi um what's the name

uh traci emmon yeah traci emmon she was like dating this guy who was at the time who was

you know he was more in alignment with the type of things that we're talking about

as a representation side and she was like you are stuck you're stuck you're stuck and you thought

okay well I'm a stuckest and so they uh you know they it is uh I think it was kind of a

movement for a while I'm not sure what's happened with um with a lot of the painters that

that were showing at like stuckest shows and stuff but you know I'd rather be a stuckest than

than just like a toady you know yeah yeah I'm gonna look into him that's uh well cool okay

interesting yeah there's like probably if you type in stuckism you know the guys yeah yeah

there's like a wikipedia page of it some of them I mean they they should uh Charles Thompson and

Billy Childish are a couple of the big names oh yeah yeah yeah Billy Childish rings a bell

absolutely yeah okay cool I will do thanks um reminding everyone this is uh Alex Schaefer

my friend's financed in it right yes I was I'll say she's uh my Joan Bogum Alex Schaefer yeah

okay cool it's Alex Schaefer on the the the whole entire universe show uh and we are

being hosted by the bitcoin art uh broader cast which is uh all thanks to the bitcoin art magazine

which I hope everyone has uh has their copy coming through them soon uh Alex is in there I'm in it

there are a number of people areas in it hey I'm just having a quick look over there over the

over list here um and yes and I think Asuna he's got his uh shows happening once or even twice a

week now uh and so there's lots happening um you can check it out on the uh bitcoin oh wow

now I haven't got my my written down with me but it's it's all yeah lots of exciting things

happen so thanks everyone for tuning in um it's uh it's been a real pleasure speaking to you

Alex I was I was very like happy meeting you were at Vegas because I was in place that was like

yeah it was suit I mean I hated Vegas everyone knows that I really hated it but it was like a family

reunion yeah right and we're gonna be able to replay it next year or the same thing oh my goodness

I'll be better prepared this time so yeah I'll I'll know what's what's facing me actually I've

been to Vegas one time before my brother got married when I was like nine or 10 years old yeah

and uh it was a convenience wedding right that lasted for like a month max uh green card wedding

and uh and it was in some casino obviously cheaper thing going and there was this like

little old lady in the pink tracks who who was part of the package deal that she was filming it so

they got a video right and uh and then he did the whole like I do a bit and as soon as he said I do

the little old lady in pink said can you say that again please it wasn't loud enough for the camera

he he had to repeat the whole kind of like the whole um that I do part which I found so amazing

might even at my little old age I was like wow dripping irony man what the fuck that's crazy

so that was that had been my previous experience in Las Vegas and I was not disappointed this year

um but yeah no it was super fun meeting you because because like yeah you can have these very

you know these paintings are like right you know uh get police attention and shit and then

and you're actually this just like as everyone who's been listening has found out just like

super gentlemanly like real nice guy to chat to and it was just real nice hanging out and I was

really happy to um to make that association you know that you can uh put the person to the work

yeah it's always nice to do you nice to see work in person yeah that too you know I mean I always

try to make a painting that um that I like in person you know so that's why that that's getting

back into the how do you paint you know I write texture and the physicality of it and you know that

it's sometimes it's wrong and then you fix it and you make a mistake and sort of like destroy

create destroy create that sort of back and forth that we see in nature that comes through

it is in the process you know but that to me that to me is part of the thing especially nowadays

in this world that is oversaturated with AI stuff so rapidly right yeah it's exactly that that

gives it the human thing that we so yearn for right if it's too perfect we there's the soul

is missing yeah and it's it's exactly that this and and that's why it was so fun to see

you're painting in person because like you really see how like rough and how much like actual

fire emotion went into the production of that painting you know um yeah it's as much in the

um in the in the execution as it is in the as the execute did yeah yeah as just my children

yeah no but in the subject matter you know yeah exactly I mean um you know just as as a painter

you know you could you can draw a line and you can draw a perfect line and then that line can

become like you're afraid to cross it because it's like well this is exactly where the head is

and yeah spent all this time getting this line transferred onto the canvas that now I'm just

going to paint up to that line then I'm going to paint the background and you know I've seen

videos of painters sometimes where they almost work like uh like a inkjet printer you know they

start yeah like me and and um all of my paintings have a moment where they are out of control

you know you've got to you've got to get off balance every now and then you know like I have

planar paintings I take off my glasses um oh yeah okay nice

22,000 vision it's like terrible terrible but I don't want to see what I'm doing necessarily

that's interesting it's not like I have a cataract I can still see all the colors but I can't see

every leaf and every crack window and every crack in the street and whatever and it's like

yeah if I can just push through cover this canvas as quick as I can just get it on there

right and and not you know tickle the brushstrokes and not worry about everything being the exact

same place I know I can get it there eventually but it doesn't have to be there in the beginning

you know the fact it's super interesting you say this because I always I like some while a long

long time ago I had to thought like surely like perfect vision I do have like perfect vision

is actually an inhibition to see to an extent because you're not you're like my eyes personally

they're always darting for all the details right which yes is a form of seeing

but in so doing I can often miss the impression the feeling and all of this stuff and that's

you know painfully apparent in my work I do these super meticulous ink chest tile-fringing

renditions might change at the moment I enjoy doing that but that's in itself it's own it's

own expression right but I find it super interesting to hear you say that and it really comes

across in in your work it's funny there was there was a time when I was making video games when

I was like oh maybe I should get like because I would wear glasses sometimes or I would wear

contacts I go with the kind of back and forth and I was like maybe I should get the laser surgery

and then I'll just have great vision all the time I am so glad I didn't do that because now

I have like a choice I can see the detail yeah yeah and I can just see the colors and the blur

and I can get my painting in a blur to look like the the landscape that I'm looking at

shit I'm like 80% done you know I'm saying yeah right yeah I'm raised with computers and

what have you to get to the sharpness and but it doesn't always have to and in fact I think it's

better to start rough and then coalesce to to the to the sharp edges but like for instance like in

the yeah you can see that in the how you do the buildings that the the banks themselves are

actually quite meticulously done in contrast to the flames and it's the same in your magic

lantern paintings where the the the audience is actually surprisingly rough it doesn't appear

that way it it looks like it's very very well painted and you look into it it's like wow this

is actually super fast and none of them have faces or fingers and and shit you know but then the

projection itself is super meticulous and yeah actually I would go ahead yeah sorry I was just

wanting to give people the opportunity because like we're we're pulling up to to like the at

least the end of the official hour and I would just like if there's anyone who wants to

ask something to kind of like line themselves up and request to speak while Alex and I

wrap this up now so if anyone has anything to ask or to say to add now is your time or forever

regret it you know and just while while people do or don't do that I would like to ask you about the

magic lantern works that you that you were doing because I really love it yeah especially especially

the sun in your way that has a special place in my heart that just you know I'm going to always

continue to to make other pieces you know and I would say that one of the overarching things that

captivates me and that I think is magical about painting is the effect of light and that you can

take paint and you can make a painting if you accurately articulate your values and your colors you

can make this thing that is just based on fabric look luminous and have this right

wing effect and it's not into a wall it's not it's not you know there's no electricity involved

it's magical isn't it yeah I drew this and I representational painting and creating the illusion

of light and shadow with is very much like it is a magic trick right you are fooling the viewer

into your sort of like taking advantage of a part of their brain that that just is wired to see

objects you know with light on them with no light you cannot see and you know there's an intrinsic

quality to objects that is is called local color you know a blue book is always going to be a

blue book and it's going to be darker than a book that has a white cover and those do not ever

going to change but then that sort of locked in I call it a cord of local colors you can move

that cord of lock this colors up and down the grayscale without you are even realizing what you've

done you know yeah yeah you you'll have colors on your palette that are like just look like brown

but then like the like the famous blue black dress example right yeah yeah which to me is a is a white

and gold dress in the shade yeah absolutely yeah there's no question about it yeah I don't

understand how anybody sees that no obviously like a white dress that's in the shade with outdoor

bright sun illumination behind it right exactly exactly it's quite clear but you're a painter you

have an advantage yeah because I know what the trick is you know yeah the two things that came

out of the renaissance that were the the two most important things were one and they're not

necessarily in this order but the first thing was linear perspective creating a geometric illusion

of space the other one is is called kiyoto scudo which is right creating the effect of light and

shadow with paint right you know it goes into again like the two aspects to any composition I

call it the line and the colors and color even Leonardo in his book that he wrote centuries ago

about you know advice to the painter even he said the color is the hard part

the line there's ways to get the line and it's funny look at all these old engravings by

Albrecht Durer they these guys came up with all kinds of crazy contraptions to help them draw

right yeah yeah with like glass paints like Leonardo said you can just put a pane of glass

in front of your subject matter and take a grease pencil close one eye and just trace the contours

and you can and they did yeah yeah yeah I used to do that on shop windows actually with a marker

yeah the hard part the magical part is is the color you know but a lot of people just you know

thinking in terms of talking about nuts and bolts painting stuff a lot of people are mistaken

into thinking they have to get the line first and then the color and so they will draw perfect

drawing and then that becomes a stumbling block because the drawing is perfect so now I can't

cover it up with paint yeah yeah I don't we know the problem yeah yeah I feel like the the line

becomes like a fence that you can't cross yeah absolutely I guarantee you that 80% of the likeness

and the joy and the beauty of the painting is in the color yeah this is that was the message that

we learned from the impressionists yeah this is something that I really appreciate appreciate it

we had both in an eye we like taught at a Rudolph Steiner preschool and so both of our kids

went there yeah and there it's very natural they like do lots of sacred geometry they do lots of

like you know getting to know nature and carving and wool work and all the shit is is more important

than you know the things they taught at school normally here and their method of teaching like

in the preschool level they were only allowed or not allowed but given like these wax blocks

to color with and so and it was all about the surface that these wax blocks created rather than

the lines so because they you couldn't really do lines with them so you would they would learn

first to create areas of color rather than doing the line that then get filled in and then slowly

they would build up on that or as they progressed with age and maturity right so they had this like

this built-in kind of like you know or ability for that you know which I really appreciate that

I thought that was a really good way of doing it yeah yeah I'm 100% behind that yeah yeah absolutely

yep yeah cool there's no one jumped up to ask questions yet I guess we're just doing such a good

good job of entertaining them ourselves um but I also like I want to respect your time I want to

respect other people's time I don't want to have this too long I realize also you've got things

that you've got to be doing um I'm not spending much of boxes right now yes hey guys do you see

well Amy DG is here she has her hand up I'm not sure if she oh I can't see that why can I look

oh because I'm just a speaker I'm not a host oh yeah because I didn't want to take the risk

because last time right right but you can still see her there Amy can I can see her absolutely right

for a degree from her because I've only seen her as a as a as a profile picture so far so I'm

really excited to hear what Amy has to say hi Amy hi I didn't want to interrupt but I have to

tell you this has been so good for my soul to sit here and listen I I have a studio at home

and I'm usually doing work while I'm listening in spaces and I put the brushes down I just

I could listen for days for the conversation where it went and it's so painterly um Alex I thank you

so much for sharing um part of your day to talk about your process and I'm just so full of love

thank you it was beautiful thank you I got goosebumps

oh wow you know we um like I said there's there's there's the the subject and there's the the

process you know and yeah I could go on and on about one or the other you know and sometimes um

you know talking about the process it just here you learn now you're it's like a painter's

painter is talking to painters but but you know I I have I found painting just to be a philosophy

a way to learn about yourself and your life and and and the process is very important you know

you have to love it and um absolutely there's so many ways to to just fall in love with painting

again uh there's so you know if you sit and you meditate on your process and you kind of write

down how you do things then just flip everything upside down you know um if you work from a photograph

literally turn the photograph upside down and you know I mean because like uh take the glasses off

be uh be more aggressive um I always kind of divide painters and and you know when I when I think

of art art I'm a painting supremacist and so when someone

I think of painters and I think of painting and um and uh I am of the firm belief and

have come to the understanding that I am in the rough school I am team uh team Rembrandt team

Titian team Manay you know there is the there's the other side of the spectrum you know it's like

those are the Dionysians and then there's the audience and that's like team Ang and team uh uh

uh Raphael and um and that's better than the other you know that's what what are the fun things

about like going to a Bitcoin art show uh is that you get all of these things at the same time

you know and you know and various you know it's I love it each kind of like representing

their one aspect of the of art history basically really you know and taking it further doing it

on uh interpretation of it and that on kind of like you know imbued with this with this new passion

for life and creation and it's uh you're burning it down you know and the thing I would say is

let yourself leave a painting wrong you know um it's okay if you don't if it doesn't always look

perfect I mean that's one reason why I think DeGa is such a valuable lesson because I look at

DeGa's work and I would probably say that he finished maybe 70 but it's like 30% of his paintings

are finished and 70% are unfit that's the beautiful thing yeah yeah yeah yeah and you start you

start to recognize oh this is unfinished like literally left this painting in this state of

unfinished and went on to something else so because he he gave attention to the bits that he

was giving attention right yeah he was he was like this is the bit that needs the expression

the rest of it is peripheral vision vision basically right right it's just like with the impression

the movement the color the atmosphere the light um the the music in his case really you know

and they're understanding that you can finish it but later you know sometimes better

a brushstroke that's not quite right but has a lot of energy it is better to just let that brush

stroke dry then just there and try to make make it perfect you know it's like paint a butter you

can't pet a butterfly you just have to let it be and there's energy in the brush strokes the color

and and the ridges of the hair going through the stroke of the paint and and there's this magic

with oil paint or even acrylic where it looks wet but it dry is hard you know when you start to

paint wet paint over the dry paint you know another good artist to look at is Bertamora so

you know I don't know she was kind of an acolyte of manay and oh okay

impressionist and you look at some paintings of women with babies and she did a lot of that

subject matter and it'll be like oh I think I know it has been color is right and it's in the right

place but you look at it and you go oh my gosh there's like no fingers or there's it's just

it's just some burnt sienna and white and some yellow ochre and it's kind of smeared and and

and then you look at her unfinished work and you look at her finished work and you're like

at some point this finished painting looked like this unfinished painting you know oh wow yeah right

so used to going museum and we see everything is finished it's all done that actually that

brings me to a question that I had forgotten about but I was I did it across my mind roughly how long

does one of your works take like it like that say the one that you didn't vague us I think that's

quite a good like average yeah or maybe I think so well to me there is there like if you've had a

stopwatch on the painting and I started that stopwatch every time it was on my easel and I was

putting paint on it mm-hmm maybe 20 hours total okay okay always working on like

five eight ten different paintings you know I might have that painting in my studio for months

you know but every time I get it back and I'm like oh there it is okay now I know I want to solve

this problem I throw it back on the easel and I work on it for five hours you know right and then

yeah well you're a very productive person yeah that's the sure better to just have a lot in my

in my practice it's better to have a bunch of pieces going then to try to finish one and then

start another one and finish it and then start one and finish it I'd rather start eight paintings

and then you know and then take the first one and and it's nice dry now and all the

brushstrokes are frozen and locked in and I can put more paint on top of it um and get that

interesting surface build up that I think makes for a captivating painting especially to see it in

person um but some artists don't work that way like the teeth no I cannot imagine working that way

I'm so fixated on what I'm doing and we'll pull my entire life into it until it's done you know

so I can't imagine it at all but like he would he would work on one painting at a time

and yeah he would finish it and then he would start another painting and he would finish it but then

an artist like Toulouse LaTrac I remember someone describing the way his studio was set up he had

like 15 easels in a circle in his studio wow the 15 different paintings on it and a big palette

and he would literally just walk from one painting and then he'd go oh this color will look good

and he'd walk to another painting and pop pop pop he puts some pressure on and um yeah I mean

the that that way you are you're allowing the the wind you have at the moment to be able to

get expression right because if you're working on one particular thing as ash I don't really have

that kind of energy for that kind of painting today it's just not resonating with me today and then

you can just go to something that's red and you want to do something that's red today you know yeah

and again one way or the other is not better than you know but it's just understanding what your

nature is what your artist temperament is and and just leaning into that you know which is what

you were saying what you were saying early on about like it's such a self-discovery thing one

learns so much about oneself through the process of creating and that's whether it's painting or

or making musical or whatever it's honing that craft yeah over a lifetime teaches you so much

about yourself and about your yeah so much you know so yeah yeah it's brilliant and thank god we

don't all have the same way of working because otherwise it just wouldn't be nearly as a as a

abundant right yeah and that's why there are so many French academic painters that would go to

you know coach your studio or something and they would learn his recipe and and nobody cares about

those paintings now right and yeah like I've always recoiled whenever an art teacher would hand out

a flyer or a pamphlet and it was like a recipe for skin tone I was like this is bullshit right

yeah yeah yeah such thing but that's how that's how it used to be you know like Rubens had a recipe

and and and and that worked because that was Rubens you know and Rafael had a recipe and for his

skin tones and you kind of needed that but when I have it like a teacher I go sit in on someone's

glass and they hand out and they go here's how you mix skin tone Naples yellow and yellow over for

the forehead and then burns skin and white for the cheeks and then you add some cherrosa

for nose and you're like what the fuck who are it and that depends so entirely on the light

and the time of day and what clothing they're wearing and what colors the walls are and so much

yeah yeah you know what if someone's skin's really red or what if you know what I said really embarrassed

by being painted yeah you know there's so many factors yeah yeah yeah yeah well yeah it becomes

so full for me legs and right and then the skin tone will just look out of place that the

person will look like copy-paste it in right when you when you get the the flyer that has the

recipe for skin tone you're basically getting how to you know white people in white light and

that's it well it's like no no serious chef works according to recipes you know it's the same thing

yeah it's it's good to have a foundation to learn from to you know to kind of like so you're

not spending five years making tons of mistakes but then but but you have to build from there and

you have to then like use your eyes and your your heart and stuff you know cool well listen it's

we've done one and a half hours which I kind of in in my mind is kind of like my personal

limit that being able to to to do these things of what I find personally interesting you know

a good length to listen to yeah um is there anything anyone would like to say is anything you would

like to say as as final final words yes we have oh we have we have case I think okay

too so I thank you for such an incredible conversation and just really enjoyed learning more

about Alex everything about your process your past it's just been incredibly inspiring so I'm

very grateful and I wanted to say Una had a request that I'm so sorry I missed so I just

brought her up because yeah I forgot that you're not a ghost and so I'd like to to see what she

would like to share and maybe just before that I'll just let everybody know that there's a link

in the in the nest if anyone hasn't seen the Hottley Day market by Franklin Crypt there's

excellent Christmas presents from various artists and you can get the bitcoin art magazine at the

Hottley Day market and the best news about the magazine is that it is printed and it'll be on its

way to us I know how real soon so we're very hopeful almost certain that it would reach the magazine

and the gold foil will reach people in the US well before Christmas so that's just a really great

piece of news in case in case you are hoping to get some free gifts but um thank you and then oh

real quick as well um oh did we lose any oh no he's there okay well who's you're do you have

an answer here do you have another guest lined up oh no I haven't thought that far but it will

be same time next week it'll be Wednesday evening for Europeans midday for Americans but no I

haven't I haven't done that yet I have to get to that on an account an hour of course we'll

repost that and so same time same place there will be another wonderful whole entire universe

discussion and um and then yeah I know how we'll be having episode four of the bitcoin art podcast

and again I'm not sure who the guest will be just keep your eyes up I'm very upset that I missed

the um the one with with fractal oh I put it in the nest as well yeah I have to have to check

up on that one I'm sure it was I'm sure it was all right so Una welcome thank you thank you

Alex has been such a pleasure listening to you and you just make it sound so easy don't you

you just make it sound like it's just simple and all you gotta do is just turn up and do it

and use your eyes and your brain and discernment of what's going on around you and I love it

and it's so true it's been absolutely great and all I wanted to do basically was just to be

allowed to read again what Arnick read for you guys in the beginning because I feel like it was a

little bit rushed and it just deserves like another take at the end of it that's very kind of you

are you okay with that fine with it Alex you're okay with that it's a very short thing I'm

just going to switch around because obviously I'm not Arnick reading it but it's um so I would

just say thank you for this morning afternoon and evening ladies and gentlemen this has been the

second episode of Fall and Fire Universe with Arnick welcome and Boomer Stinks on the Bitcoin

art broadcast presented to you uh courtesy of Bitcoin art magazine make sure you're following

coin art magazine on all social media channels you can find all our links on Bitcoin art magazine.com

and do make sure to order yourself a copy of the magazine or even the fine art book version if

you haven't done so already this is absolutely certain to become a seminar work of Bitcoin art

history and features many of the artists presented on this show including Arnick you can stay up

today with all upcoming shows on Bitcoin broadcast.com and do make sure that you're following Arnick on

Twitter, Arnick Malcolm and you can check out the artwork that he makes on Arnick Malcolm.com

that's all I wanted to add because as Amy already said it's been so incredibly just entertaining

relaxed and very very just yeah satisfactory it's very nice you say

mostly taken care of thank you so much I'm going to mute myself now thank you I can't let you say

that without without adding the fact that but basically I just wrote what us and I heard sent me

like hey say something like this and I just click quickly wrong to now change a little bit but those

are basically us and ours words so so he gets all the credit for that little intro but thank you

that's very kind of you thank you guys yeah thank you Keesa for hosting it so well and thank you

Amy for your for your for your lovely edition there it was real nice and Alex thank you so much

for your time for your insight for your work for being a gentleman and for yeah for a great

second episode of the whole entire universe thank you for having we'll see you thank you so

much Alex yeah exactly and see you in Vegas all right then man thanks everyone good night good night