Alfred Swinscoe

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1:03between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, the first 48. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow the first 48 on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello, everyone.

2:23Welcome, episode 480 of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me, as always, is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. All right. Dinner plans did not go the way I thought they would. Still good. Yeah, we ended up having to order something. I was going to make something for everybody, but I was missing a piece of the puzzle. So, if you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, you got to wait. That's sage advice from Gibby. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Carla Adams jump up to our highest level. Hey, thanks, Carla. Chris Warner, Hey, Chris. Dirt eater. Well, you know, one thing, the, you know, people like the ground, you know, like the feet in the ground, earthy, and whatever, but dirty eater, man. I don't know about that. Yeah. The paper towel. So I can't really say about that. Right. Yeah.

3:23You were a little, a little paper towel freak. A little strange. A little, I would have been on that, that show, my strains of session probably. Do you sneak a bite ever now in this? No, no. Have it in 50 years. What was your, this was when I was very little. Your go to, brawny or whatever. Whatever my, whatever my mom bought. We had Kim Catherine Strickland. Hey, Kim. James Kelly. Hey, appreciate that, James. Rhea Brown. Hey, Rhea. And last but not least, Gilla McGregor. Oh, Gilla. Yeah. Cool name. Yes. And then we go back into the ball. This week we selected Kristi Russell. Thanks, Kristi. Yeah, we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of it. So we have a new episode out right now on True Crime all the time. But we're talking about the murder of cash app founder, Bob Lee. He was stabbed to death on the streets of San Francisco in 2023.

4:24I'd already soon discovered that he was involved in the world of drugs and exclusive parties. You know, when you got that type of money, invite you into some things, maybe some other weird world things, you know what I mean? I get what you're saying. I mean, yeah. You do have a lot of money. There's not much you can't dabble in. Right. I'm sure you shouldn't, right? And a lot of it, but you're not gate kept. You got the money. Doesn't mean you should do it though, but it's out now. Make sure you check that out. We also had a Patreon episode, Drop Saturday night on 25 year old Chante Blankenship. He was murdered while taking her daily evening walk in her North Lake, Texas neighborhood. Her killer lived in the community for over a year before members of her church helped identify her killer. So that's a good episode. Yeah, it is. Make sure you check that out.

5:24All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about the murder of Alfred Swinska in April 2023. Human remains were found in a farmer's field in Nottinghamshire, England. DNA testing identified those remains as a local minor who had been missing for more than 50 years. And I'm sure we'll talk about it more as we go through the episode, but you know, you and I normally at the end of unsolved episodes, we kind of gauge, right? How likely is this to be solved? Some seem more solvable than others. And I'm sure at one point, you know, this was something that family thought, well, we're just never going to find out what happened to. Yeah. Now, they may not know who did it, but he was identified and at least they, you know, were able to find his remains. You see a piece of the missing puzzle, right?

6:25Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In April of 26, 2023, police officers were called to Coxmore Road in Sutton and Ashfield, Nottinghamshire, after human remains were found buried in a farmer's field. The farmer dug a ditch along the length of his field and discovered the remains according to the guardian police officer set up a tent in the field and they brought in scientists and an anthropologist to determine the age of the remains, but they noted that the bones were not ancient. I can only imagine that they thought, what do we have here? Is this like a, some type of historical site? Well, you think about England, how old it is, right? The UK and frankly, all of Europe, to be honest, it's not like you can't find really old bones here in America because you can. Yeah. But you think about all of the wars and things that happened throughout time.

7:29Their history is just way different than ours. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've only been around 250 years, right? Investigator spent over two weeks at the site. The remains were eventually removed and in early May 2023, police announced a post-mortem exam would be carried out to identify the remains. On May 24th, police released an update. They revealed that the remains were a male skeleton with an estimated age of 40 to 60 years old and an estimated height of five, four to five, six. I still think it's amazing how they can narrow it down like that. Even to that, right? Which is age range wise, it's still fairly broad. But when you're working with, you know, 50 year old remains, I'm with you. I think it's amazing what science can do. Police originally believed the body could be that of Robin Barrow's Spencer, a local man

8:30who was reported missing in June 2004. Robin was 47 at the time he went missing and a murder investigation was launched in 2006. His body has never been found. A rest were made, but no one was ever prosecuted in that case. Extensive DNA testing determined the body was not Robin Spencer. And that's the other thing, right? You find these remains, you're working to identify them. At the same time, I'm sure police are going back and looking at, you know, a lot of missing persons cases, especially if they fit those parameters. Right. Age range, height range, you know, things like that. But just think, I mean, they have DNA to help them out now. They do, but here's my thought, right? When you're talking about 50 years ago, what are the chances that somebody's DNA is going to be in a database?

9:30And I would think it's practically new. Yeah. Now, yeah, it doesn't mean you can't do some genetic genealogy and get creative in those types of ways, but to just match the person's DNA, that's probably going to be near impossible. So the body at this point was not identified. An expert still needed to do more tests, such as radio carbon dating to determine when exactly the individual died detectives were examining the missing person database, analyzing the clothing found with the victim and consulting with experts. Assistant Chief Constable Rob Griffith said in a statement, is quoted by the West Bridgeford wire. It's important to remember this is not just a collection of bones in a field. This is someone's loved one whose family will have undoubtedly been waiting many years for answers.

10:32His family are at the forefront of our minds. And that's why we have been meticulous in our decision making by ensuring we were at the scene in Coxmore Road for three weeks to ensure we can gather as much evidence as possible. It's imperative that we can provide his family with all the answers they need and that the work we do can ensure those responsible for his death are brought to justice. This will obviously be distressing for the local community to hear as at this moment in time. And not provide identification. What I can say is that we have a team of detectives working extremely hard alongside a team of scientists to gather as much detail as possible to help us identify the person. So there's a lot of things there, right, that he's talked about. First and foremost and really the first thing he said is absolutely true, right? This is not just a collection of bones. It is a person who has a family out there, has loved ones who have been waiting many,

11:39many years for answers as to what happened to them. And it's important that you do it right. It is. And it does sound like they're putting a lot of effort into it to taking their time. They seem to have all the right players there. Yeah, scientists and, you know, they're bringing in experts and all of that. He went on to say at this stage, we believe the man was murdered due to the injuries sustained. This includes trauma to parts of the skeleton, which are undergoing further analysis. We also believe he was buried at this site so no one could find him. It's also possible that the burial site is not the place where his murder occurred. However, we keep an open mind. We also know this is not a recent murder. We know this because it takes a number of years for the body to decompose to bone. And that's an interesting statement because they're looking at missing persons.

12:41Okay, well, how far back do they go? Well, that's a good point. This is not going to be most likely someone who went missing the year before. Right. So how big is that window? Well, we know now that it was 50 years. And as they're working the case, it could be 5, 20, 50, 100, 300. I don't know. Yeah, that's a good point. But the other thing that really jumps out to me is, you know, a lot of times when just skeletal remains are found. There's very little that they can tell about the cause and manner of death. I think some of the few exceptions are when you have maybe a broken, high-oid bone. We've seen that before that can indicate strangulation. But then also if you have like cut marks on some of the bones, especially like the rib bone.

13:42Yeah. Well, it could mean that this person was stabbed to death or something like that or somewhat crush in skull. Yeah. Well, yeah. Or if you had a bullet. Oh, that's true. Yeah. In the skull. That would kind of be obvious. But he is saying, right? They think it's a murder due to the injuries they're seeing on the skelet. Yeah. And that's not always the case. He went on to say the radio carbon dating would help provide a scientific date range for the date of death and could provide a minimum timeframe that the body has been there. We have a team of dedicated detectives now working on this case and would really like to hear from members of the public. Today we appeal for the public to come forward any information you may have about who this person might be or anything you may have heard. Then we would ask you to get in touch. This murder may have happened some time ago, but times have changed and so have royalties.

14:45We've already eliminated a number of people who are known to be missing. They're determined to use all our investigative skills to identify this man and find those responsible for his murder. So this actually was a pretty lengthy statement. It really was that he made all really good points though. He's saying they've already ruled out some people that they they know have gone missing, but just like in a lot of unsolved cases right there are peeling to the public. Hey, if you know anything, even if you think you might know something, come forward and tell us. I think that's perfect. They've done everything they can on the investigation side, right? They've brought all the experts in. They've provided some information or the information they want the public to know. Now they're saying, hey public, we need your help. What can you tell us? I think that's really smart. I also like how he mentioned, maybe you knew something about this, but you were afraid

15:46to come forward, but sometimes those loyalties change and now maybe you can move forward and talk to us. Yeah, I think that loyalties change kind of mindset comes up a lot, especially in cold cases that go back decades because let's face it. If it was more than one person who was in on the murder, okay, maybe the relationship between the individuals did change over time and they might have a reason to come forward now that they didn't have back then. And then I think to your point, maybe the fear has gone away. Let's say you're a accomplice or whatever has died over this period of time, then obviously the fear or the retaliation from that person would be gone. Even with the update, police released images of old shoes and socks that were found with

16:49the remains in hopes someone would recognize them on June 8, 2023. Police identified the remains as 54 year old Alfred Swinsko who went missing after a night out at a pub 56 years earlier. Alfred was born on September 3, 1912. He was married to Caroline Walker and had six children. Caroline died in 2003. Alfred and his family lived in the village of Pinkston, Derbyshire. The Guardian reported that he was described as a hard working and respected man. They also said that since the age of 14, Alfred had worked at Langton Collier, which is a coal mine. And he worked as a cutter. Not a fun job. I can't imagine it probably would be. Basically, he operated a machine that cut large chunks of coal out of the coal face for

17:52other miners to then break down. But I don't care what you do in a coal mine. It's going to be dirty. And not good for the lungs, right? All that stuff is terrible to breathe in. I know my grandfather had black lung. I'm sure yours probably did too. Well my grandfather was not a coal miner. So I thought maybe one of your great grandfather? Not that I know of. I don't remember having any coal miners in my family. I just so many of anybody that had family and Kentucky and Tennessee at one point. It's not a bad assumption to be honest with you. But I had a coal miner's daughter in my family, but not an actual coal miner. Okay. Alfred had a higher paying position and was known to help his family out if they ever needed money. Good guy. Yeah. I mean, sounds like it, right? They said he was hard working.

18:52He was respected. And I think being the cutter, and I don't know this to be a fact, I'm assuming that was a higher paying job that maybe came with seniority. You're using a machine that's cutting pieces that then people are going to have to break into smaller pieces using manual labor. Right. Yeah. All dirty. You know, that dust is everywhere. Yeah, that part you're not going to escape. But and it was a very dangerous job. Sure was. You know, we have a lot of people, especially like in Appalachia who were coal miners, West Virginia, right? Oh, yeah. Had a lot of coal miners. His nickname was Sparrow. And he was known as the champion pigeon man of Pinkston because he loved pigeon racing. Oh, man, a good pigeon race. Haven't seen one of those.

19:53Never. I was going to say I've never heard of that. Yeah. I know, you know, I've heard of carrier pigeons. Right. I apparently they can be trained to do, take messages from one place to another. I still don't really understand how that works. I don't either, but it works. It's kind of like the owl thing and Harry Potter is the way I imagine it. But then you go beyond that and I don't know how you get them to race each other. I don't either. But I guess if you can train them to do one thing, you can train them to do something else. Well, if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. That is fact. If I've learned anything, that is factual right there. I've learned that Alfred went missing on January 27th, 1967 that night. He was drinking with his two sons and his friends at the miners arms pub and Pinkston. And I imagine the miners arms pub was a pretty busy place on most nights.

20:54I'm thinking it was too, you know? I feel like you worked at hard. You are going to need to relax with a cold one at some point. Yeah, I don't really feel that need sitting in my, my comfy office chair in the air conditioning. It's not like at the end of my day. And like, let me wipe my brow with my hanker chief and I got to get to the pub to have a cold one. I don't really feel that way. Yeah, so you have no need to belly up somewhere. You're happy. No. Strange though, when I leave here, I do feel like I need to. Well, because you work very hard while you're here. You have to be parched from all the words you're using. That's what I think it is in these episodes. And just by, you know, my mind just turning and turning, you know, thinking and just cranking out the most poetic. Yeah, of phrases. Exactly.

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23:00Yeah, but dude, it's 1967. I'm pretty sure most pubs in America in 1967 had an indoor toilet. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. I think in America they probably did. People will let me know. But again, right, if you're in the UK, some of those places probably were built how many years before this? Oh, absolutely. Old plumbing. Yeah. So built during a time where there was no indoor plumbing. They weren't going to refurbish the whole thing. So I get that part. I get that part. For a while, Alfred's family tried to tell themselves that maybe he ran away to start a new life. And man, we hear that. You know, we hear it from law enforcement sometime in the case of a missing person. Well, you know, maybe they just decided to, you know, start a new life. They're an adult. They have that right. And I get it.

24:01Technically it is true. I just don't think the percentages favor that. I don't either. I mean, you'd have to really not like your family, not like your job. I feel like you have a better job or something you can do that you're going to like elsewhere. I just don't know if it's that practical. Well, I don't think it's the easiest thing in the world. It doesn't mean that people haven't done it. We've heard plenty of stories where someone was missing for 20, 30 years and finds out that yeah, they did just up and leave and start a new life. But I just think if you're going by the percentages, it's still a pretty low percent of the missing person's cases as opposed to well, something, you know, tragic or happened to them along the lines of foul play. I still think the percentages higher. Now, I do think, you know, when these people that actually follow through on, I'm going to start a new life.

25:02I think, you know, that's fine. You want to start a new life, start a new life. But at least tell the people you're leaving behind that you're doing this so they don't have to worry day in and day out for the, you know, eternity. Yeah. Now, I get it, but sometimes they don't. No, they don't. I don't think that's just wrong. Alfred Sun Gary dedicated years of his life to searching for his father. He searched fields, abandoned buildings, and he even hired a private investigator. And to your point, Gibbs, if you want to run away and start a new life, okay, is it pretty selfish if you have a family, I would say, yeah, right? You have to admit that. But is it even more selfish if you let your family wonder what happened to you? Yeah. I think it's even more selfish. Yeah. Unless that family was absolutely terrible, terrible people. Yeah. But outside of that, I mean, why would you want to put them through it?

26:02In 1969, Gary contacted the Salvation Army for advice. They concluded nothing more could be done. And they wrote to Gary, trust that your father will decide to contact you direct at some point in the future. That's kind of strange, isn't it? That they're making that assumption? Yeah, because they are assuming that he has basically taken off of his own volition. And don't worry, he will contact you. Gary was tormented by his father's disappearance and sadly died in 2012 without ever knowing what happened to his father. Oh, man, that's rough. But four of Alfred's six children are still alive. And he does have a number of grandchildren in 2023. Alfred's grandson Russell Loveridge contacted the police because the skeleton was found near where Alfred went missing and it did match his height.

27:05Russell also viewed the photos of the socks that were released by authorities, which as Russell told the Guardian brought back memories of my childhood. And I had a distinct feeling I had seen them somewhere before. He thought he remembered wearing those socks as a child. So the police took his DNA samples, which confirmed Alfred's identity. Wow. And we talked about it, right? Little to absolutely zero chance that Alfred's DNA was going to be somewhere in a database. But then you think about getting creative and that's where a lot of breakthroughs come in nowadays. But it wouldn't if this guy doesn't come forward. So then you go back to the police appealing to the public. Hey, check this out, come forward. And that's basically exactly what this guy did.

28:05Yeah, I mean, posting those pictures made a big difference. It did. And that's why you and I go back and forth, right? A lot of times about, you know, what do you hold back? What do you put out there? I get it. They have a reason for why they do things. A lot of the times though, to me, what they decided to hold back a year in. And then the fact that they're still holding it back, let's say 40, 50 years later, tends to make a little less sense to me. Yeah. I'm like, why? Why, why at this point shouldn't you just be trying to get any clues? So you should dump it all out there. Yeah. I get it. There might be something very specific that would allow you to conclusively say, yes, this person is the killer because nobody else could have known this, right? But I don't know if that's all they ever keep back. Yeah, but I get you that because that keeps, you know, just some strange person wanting

29:09to just take credit for something that they really didn't do. Yeah. At a press conference, Alfred's family appealed for anyone to come forward with information. And I kind of thought about this, right? You have a law enforcement appealing to the public early on, but what are they appealing for? It's basically for the public to come forward because they're trying to identify the person, the victim. Well, now that person has been identified. So the public plea changes. We know who it is. Now help us figure out who might have killed this, right? Who would want to harm, who would want to harm this guy? Russell Lowbridge said, this has been a mystery that has haunted our family for decades. Whoever did this, Rob generations of a grandfather and great grandfather and left six children without a father. While we might be able to give my grandfather the proper funeral he deserves, we still don't

30:10have the answers we desperately need. And I tell you, Gibbs, every time we research these types of cases, I can't help, but try to put myself in the shoes of the victim's family. You know, what it must be like to have a father go missing, a grandfather go missing. Maybe a grandfather that you never got to know at all, right? Because you weren't born at the time he went missing. Great grandchildren who would never get to meeting. It's just really rough to think about the spider web and the number of people who were affected when something like this happened. Yeah, it really stretches out. Russell's mother Julie was 25 when her father went missing. She told the guardian, I remember coming home one day from work and people saying they couldn't find dad. We all thought it was very mysterious, but we did think he would turn up.

31:13It does make you wonder how we did cope through all these years because it has always stayed with us as a family. Where did dad go? So instead of saying what happened to dad, they just truly believe that dad left and went somewhere and would eventually maybe come back. Yeah, I see how you could look at it that way. I guess I could also make the argument that where did dad go could also encompass, maybe something happened to him or someone did something to him where to go, where is he at? But if you're leaning more towards the first one, that's tough on a family because you're like, this is our dad. We loved him and he just decided to abandon us. That's got to be tough. And it puts us trained on a family too, right? Because I'm assuming he was probably the provider. Yeah, a lot of times and especially in the 60s, that was probably the case.

32:16Julie also said she practically went hysterical when the remains were found. She said he can't have lain in that field for 56 years and no one could find him until now. It's just so horrible. I would like to think I could die knowing the truth. Someone killed my dad and I want to know what I need to know what. Yeah, I don't know how you could handle when you realized that the person you loved didn't run away was murdered and laid there for 56 years without anybody ever knowing anything about it besides whoever did it. It's got to be a horrible feeling. In October, the Nottinghamshire police issued a renewed appeal for information and aired a recreation of Alfred's last known movements on BBC's crime watch. Detective Inspector Mel Crutchley noted that many people who once lived in the area had

33:17moved on, but they needed to hear from anyone who lived in Pinkston around the time of Alfred's disappearance. She noted that the killer killers would have driven to the field where Alfred's body was found. Investigators noted that this field was some distance from the pub. This was significant as not as many people had cars in the community. Now, here's the problem. You need to talk to all of these different people who lived in Pinkston during that time. The problem is a lot of those people are going to have paths. Sure. They're no longer going to be alive. And like she said, right, many of them have moved on. How do you find them? That's a big undertaking. It really is. What do you got to go back like in the census and try to figure out who lived there? And then you have to try to figure out whether they're alive or dead. Do they still live there? And if not, where do they live now?

34:19Yeah. And how do you locate them? People low bridge later told the Guardian he had driven past the field where his grandfather's remains were buried hundreds of times. He said, I wouldn't like to count the number of times I drove by that road over the years. We were so close to him a stone throw away. It makes you think he was shouting out. I'm here. I'm here. He would still be there now if it wasn't for pure chance. I mean, he's he's right. He is right, but also that's going to haunt you. Yeah, I really know that you drove right by there all the time, right? Hundreds and hundreds of times. And he was there all along Alfred's family was finally able to lay him to rest in January 2024. In August of that year, police announced that they had identified two suspects thought to have been involved in Alfred's death. Both suspects are now deceased.

35:20I mean, for them to even say they have maybe two suspects is pretty pretty good for that. How long the case has been out there? Yeah, I think it is, but is it shocking that they're both that? No. Because we're talking, you know, 50 plus years. So even if they were in their early 20s that would put them at almost 80 years old, right? Fortunately, one of those suspects had a history of violence in April 1966. The suspect was convicted of assaulting another man whose injuries were said to have been similar to Alfred's post Mordem exam determined he sustained a significant stab injury and blunt force trauma. He died with a broken hand. He was buried four to six feet deep in the field. And I have no idea what it's like to dig that type of grave.

36:24I know you do. You've talked about it. It's a little scary to hear you talk about it, but a four to six foot deep hole where you can put a body. That's not an easy feat to dig by hand. No, that's not going to be something that you do quickly. No, that's going to take a lot of effort. Could somebody do it by themselves? Yeah, they could, but it's going to take a while. After you do some of them, enough of them, you know, you got to get used to it. But just like anything, right? Get better the more you do it. I know there's only certain things you can talk about, but the things I have heard are frankly disturbing. I kind of learned kind of like a cool hand Luke learned, you know, I dig the dirt out and then somebody come along said, what's that dirt doing on my, my land right here? They had to put it back in and then I put it back in and the guy come back around and

37:24say, what's that dirt doing in my hole? I'm like, oh, man, okay, I'll take it out. Yeah, you had a strange childhood. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, it's different. Well, what I did find interesting was is that they were able to determine what kind of wounds, how he was attacked. I thought that was very interesting. It is. And I think it goes back to what we were kind of talking about earlier, which is, you know, a significant stab injury. And as I'm assuming, that's because they saw the blade mark on maybe a rib or maybe multiple ribs. I don't know. You know, obviously the broken hand would be pretty easy to tell. And then the blunt force trauma, even though they really didn't go into it in detail, you know, that could have been the skull. That could have been a number of different things. You're listening to this podcast. So I know you've got a curious mind.

38:24Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with progressive. Save over $900 on average. They make it super simple. Pop over to progressive.com. Answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with coverage options tailored to your choices. Plus you'll see which discounts you may qualify for like the online quote discount or savings for paying in full. In fact, 99% of progressive auto customers earn at least one discount. See if you could say when you switch to progressive, you'll feel good about making a savvy choice. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little extra cash back. Progressive casualty insurance, company and affiliates, national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customer surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Scientists though had to do extensive work on his bones to find out the cause of the

39:28disease. It's believed he sustained the broken hand while fighting off his attack. I'm sure he put up a fight before he went down. Yeah, I think it's a very plausible explanation. If you realize that someone or possibly more than one person is trying to kill you, they're trying to stab you, you're going to do everything in your power to stay alive and breaking a hand. That could happen very easily. Russell Lowbridge told the BBC at the time, finding out he was murdered was a shot. It took some sinking in. It's all a bit disturbing and upsetting. Anybody that knew anything, they've kept it a secret. It would be wonderful if people did come for it. It would help put our minds at rest. It will always haunt us. It will always be left wondering, we've got some closure, but not full closure. There are still questions to be answered.

40:28That's the thing, right? You feel good in one sense that now you know where Grandad is. But then you have this whole other chapter that opens up and why? Why does someone do this to Grandad? What did he do? And who? And who? You got a couple of different questions. And I get it, right? He's saying it'd be wonderful if people came forward. But if you're the killer, or you're maybe part of a pair of killers, even if you were alive, what would be in it for you to come forward at this point? Maybe you come forward to clear your conscience. Yeah, that can happen. I don't think it happens a lot, but it can. And Chief Constable Rob Griffin said many of the people who were with Alfred at the time he went missing or no longer alive. He added, we may never get the full picture of what happened Alfred, but that certainly hasn't stifled our determination to investigate this crime and leave no stone unturned to find

41:34his killer or killed him on November 18, 2024. A corner's inquest ruled that Alfred was unlawfully killed, but did not shed further light on who was responsible for his murder. The inquest heard that Alfred sustained traumatic injuries to multiple areas, including his neck. He suffered a sustained attack with a bladed instrument. But neither of the two suspects were mentioned during the hearing. Okay. Kind of mind-boggling. I just wonder if it's because they just didn't have enough evidence to maybe put their name out there, right? At least in America, I don't know how it works in the UK, but you do have to be a little careful in calling somebody a killer. Yeah. You know, it can be slanderous. They don't want to tarnish someone's reputation dead or alive. Yeah, unless you've got some pretty good proof to go along with it.

42:40Now it does become a little harder to be slanderous when that person is already dead, but not saying their family couldn't come forward and sue you or whatever. Police were unable to pinpoint exactly when Alfred was killed in Bair. But the most reliable specific sighting of him was at his workplace on January 27, 1967. Archaeological finding showed the body was likely to have been buried in more than one site. Ruby Burrow, Detective Chief Inspector at Notspley, said archaeological findings showed that Alfred was likely buried somewhere else and then moved to the field where he was found. This was determined due to discoloration of soil in the Great. Well, I'm guessing they buried him somewhere at that time and then maybe development was coming through or maybe something was going to happen at that site.

43:41So they went and got the body out of there and thought that this field would be a great place to put him the rest. Yet it reminds me so very much of the movie Good Fellows. Good Fellows. I think I said it then correctly the first time, but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, you're a funny guy. Well, they buried someone, right? They dug a grave. They buried this mobster who they had killed and then at some point, I think a housing development was going to go in there and they were like, we got to move that body. So it could be something along those lines. Right. Let's face it, over 50 years, things changed. Absolutely. What was a field across from my house is now a big-ass plat full of houses. Yeah. So how hard would it be when they're excavating, they're getting ready to build one of these houses for that body to turn up?

44:43Why do you think I was over there a year and a half ago? I didn't know then, but I have questions now for sure. Burrow also noted that the investigation had been difficult due to the passage of time and the loss of witness. And that doesn't surprise me at all, right? When you start to get 30, 40, 50, almost 60 years after someone's gone missing or after an event happened, it's not going to make your job easier, right, as it detected. No. DNA advances can help in certain aspects, but the actual detective work that really doesn't change that much over time, right? Talking to people, knocking on doors, trying to get witness statements. That's not going to be easier 60 years later. Nope, it's going to be so much harder. After the inquest, Russell Lowbridge told the press that many of his family's questions remained unanswered.

45:43They still don't know why Alfred was killed or who was responsible. He said at the inquest, as quoted by NatsTV, I can't understand why anybody would want to do it. He was such a nice man and didn't bother anybody. And from what the corner told us, it was a wicked death. Nobody deserves that kind of death, let alone Alfred. And it does kind of beg the question. Who would want to kill this man? Who everybody seemed to like, respect, but is it possible that maybe he was into some things his family didn't know about? Absolutely, that's possible. Or maybe he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Saw something he shouldn't have seen, right? There's a number of different possibilities. Or maybe somebody wanted to be the cutter and they needed to move him out of the way to be the cutter. That's actually not the worst idea you've ever had. I know. You know, if this was a good job, if it paid more, could somebody have wanted him out

46:47of the way? The two suspects and Alfred's murder have not been publicly named by the police in their 2024 investigative report. The BBC chose not to name the men out of respect for their families. However, they did report that one of the suspects was a family friend of Alfred's. These were those who knew the family friend as well as historical records, paying to picture of a man with a history of violence. In April 1966, John Shawcroft of Pinkston was assaulted by this suspect. Shawcroft drank at the minor's arms. The pub where Alfred was last seen and saw him regularly. He also knew the family friend suspect. They used to go drinking together and worked on motorcycles and cars, but their friendship ended after the assault. After driving demands field to go drinking, they were sitting in the man's car and without warning, the man hit Shawcroft in the face.

47:51Then walked over to the passenger side, dragged him out of the car and kicked him repeatedly. Shawcroft told the BBC, we were just talking. This thing bang, I can remember him kicking me and that were it. I just lay there. I did. Shawcroft was left bleeding profusely and spent two weeks in the hospital. His attacker was later convicted of malicious wounding. So I get it, right? Why the paper might not want to print these two guys' names. It haven't been convicted. But this person who was apparently a family friend of Alfred's undoubtedly has connections or had connections to him, but also had a very violent side to it. Yeah, definitely had a temper on him. I mean, he drank at the minor's arms. They knew a lot of the same people.

48:51I'm sure they knew each other. Okay, you could see why maybe police are thinking that this is a possibility. Yeah, I can see why they would zone in on that. A Pinkston man named Fred Webster told the BBC, he went to school with Alfred's youngest son. Around the time of Alfred's disappearance, he had a strange encounter with the man who assaulted Shawcroft. The man who was about eight years older than him offered him a ride in his car, owning a car was pretty unusual at the time. So Webster said, yes, he did note I sort of judged him as a bit strange. The man took Webster on a drive to the woods off Coxmore Road. This is close to where Alfred's body was found. According to Webster, he said something like these woods on the right hand side and something about you can sure hide something up there. Okay, a little mysterious, but yet telling at the same time.

49:52Yeah, but what's it mean? But then obviously what could it mean with knowing this is where Alfred's body was found. Afterwards, they went to a pub and had some drinks, but then they never went out again. I get it. A lot of people don't have cars. You want to take a ride in that car, but you judge this guy to be a little strange. And so that might be it. That might be our first and last interaction or at least our last. The drive left Webster with an uneasy feeling because they went about six miles outside Pinkston. According to the BBC, the family friend Suspect served in the military when he was in his 20s. In 1962, he was imprisoned for six months for driving while disqualified and without insurance plus theft. In 1973, he was accused of assaulting two police officers. Alfred's grandson said that according to his uncle, this man followed Alfred out of the

50:58pub on the night he went missing. So possibility. Maybe he's the one that murdered Alfred. Yeah, I mean, I understand why police were looking at him. We keep learning more and more. Now we realize that years later, he assaulted two police officers, but this thought that he followed Alfred out of the pub on the night that he went missing. Okay. I mean, it's not concrete evidence, but you can understand why he's a suspect in the eyes of law enforcement. The notting him, Shire Police had already released details about the suspect and said the decision to declare him as a suspect is a really sound one. And I would agree with that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what they're going to do with that information, right? His name doesn't come up at the inquest.

51:59He's not been charged. He's not been tried. He's not been convicted, but he's also not alive. So I just wonder how much that factors in. I think probably, you know, pretty healthy way. Well, they can't question him. Right. So obviously, he can't confess the police have said very little about the second suspect. The BBC established that he was from Pinkston and was known to Alfred and his family. The evidence against the second suspect is less concrete. Police did say that if the two men were alive today, they would be brought in for questioning. And I think that that should go without saying, right? Members of Alfred's family told the BBC they were angry that more was not done by the Derbyshire Police who conducted the original investigation. Some in the community of Longblee, the family friend was involved in Alfred's murder. The BBC was also told that Alfred's family gave the man's name to police way back when.

53:05Oh, so I get it. I understand why they would be upset. A retired detective told the BBC that back in the 60s, officer sometimes didn't take missing persons cases seriously and had the mindset that the person would probably turn off. How many times have we talked about that when we have these order type cases? Yeah. And that's not a UK thing, right? Officers here in the United States did that as well back then. Additionally, detective said that all the original paperwork from the time of Alfred's disappearance has been lost. And I'll say the same thing you just said. How many times have we heard that? Yeah. Right. When you go from the 1960s, which would have been a very paper heavy. Oh, yeah. In the period, everything was kept, you know, all files were paper agencies or places sometimes move or things happen to the storage facility.

54:09It's not unheard of. Now you could and then some people might look at it through more of a conspiracy theory-type lens. But, you know, I think just things get lost. They get damaged. You know, who knows? John Shawcroft told the BBC that the force did not contact him during its recent investigation, despite including his 1966 assault in evidence against the first suspect. Fred Webster also noted that when the police launched a new appeal earlier in 2024, he reached out to them to tell them about his strange drive with the suspect. Webster said, I rang the police up. They said, we don't want to know. We know who they were and their debt. So I said, you don't want to know who I think did it then. They said, no, and put the phone down. Wow. So, okay. Yeah, I mean, it's not what you really want to hear.

55:10I understand it from the standpoint of, they're already on our radar, but they're dead. There's really not much we can do about it. But if it really went down that way for baton, it's a little harsh. I think so. You're basically just saying, get off the phone. We don't want to hear from you. We don't care what you have to say. We consider the case closed, basically. The BBC contacted the Nottinghamshire police with the information provided by Webster and Shawcroft and pointed out that they had not been interviewed. After receiving this information, police later issued a statement stating that detectives had now spoken to two witnesses who provided helpful information, shocking how that works. Right? They don't want to talk to these guys until some big news organization like the BBC starts sticking their nose in.

56:10And now all of a sudden it's like, oh, hey, you know what? We better talk to these guys or we're going to look like idiots. Oh, yeah. Right. They kind of did. They did, but they wanted to try to cover there. You know what? So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I think although investigators have resolved some aspects of Alfred's case, right? They found the location of his remains. I think they're fairly certain of his cause of death, but there are still a lot of questions. Did these two unidentified suspects murder Alfred? And if so, why would they want to murder a man who was so well-liked and respected in his community? I think the problem is, at least from my point of view, and probably a lot of people are saying the same thing. I think some of these answers are going to be really hard to get. Yeah. 50 plus years later, these two individuals are...

57:13Are dead. I really, as much as I hate to say it, I like this little theory you have of this cutter position being sought after. Now I don't know. It wasn't said that either of these two men were involved in that type of thing or what, but it does seem strange, right? These are not strangers to Alfred. They weren't strangers to Alfred. They did drink in the bar. So I think they had a lot of mutual acquaintances. It just seems like somebody would have come forward and said this person had a problem with Alfred. This person followed Alfred out the bar. The night he disappeared, which somebody did say, I think much, much later on, but yeah, I don't know. It's hard not to think that they probably had something to do with it. It's just the age of the case. They can't really just lock it down 100%.

58:15No. I think that's going to make it hard to ever get the answers. But that's it for our episode on the murder of Alfred Swinsko. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Let's hear it. Hi, there. It's Lori Colley. I'm in Windsor, Ontario. I just listened to your last podcast on True Crime all the time, Unsolved. When you made a little mistake, I just wanted to correct you if that's okay. Detroit is actually north of Windsor. When you cross the bridge, either the ambassador or the new Gordy Howe when it opens, you would be driving south to Windsor. Yes, that's all. Love your show, guys. I am team Fergie, but give me a love you as well. Yeah, so take care. I love you show. Bye for now. I never really figured that out. I cross it every weekend for the last five and a half years.

59:18It's been a long time. Yeah. I mean, I do it a lot. I always feel like I'm going east from when I'm in, you know, when I get on either one of the two bridges or if I go down Detroit and get on the tunnel, I feel like I'm going east. Who said it was north? Me or you? I don't know. Because I don't remember saying it, but obviously one of us must have. But I just remember, and it's been 20 years since I lived there, I just remember going across the bridge to Windsor. I don't remember how far it was from the bridge or even which way it was. That new bridge is nice. I've taken that a couple of times here recently. Is that the Gordy Howe when she was mentioning? Yeah. Cool, a little bit longer. Yeah. But we love voicemails. We do. We don't mind being wrong. I just don't remember what we said. That's the hard part. Probably me. I love being corrected. I just can't always remember what we said that was wrong. I want to remember this. No. You don't even remember what you said five minutes ago. What was this about again?

1:00:19This episode. But we appreciate the voicemail very much. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time Unsolved. So for Mike and Gaby, stay safe and keep your room time ticking. Hello, and welcome to Pluto Fo. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto TV. We're all your blockbuster favorites or landing all summer long. Catch anchor man, the legend of Ron Burgundy.

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