All the hallmarks of a Costco customer

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Don't you think that Eve is looking unbelievably beautiful today?

She's applied together.

Very, yep, she's applied makeup.

Is that because we're all going out to dinner tonight?

It is.

It's party day.

It's party day.

Just say it.

It's our Christmas dinner.

Christmas party day.

Yes.

I do know what.

I wish Jane and I have our makeup applied daily now because we're visualized.

Yes.

Why couldn't the lady have already been to do that?

No, she's still coming.

She's still coming.

I wish there was such a big difference between us with it.

Why didn't we just ask Eve to do our makeup?

That's clearly the answer, isn't it?

No.

I do have my whole kit with me.

There we are, though.

I think it's because I never wear makeup day to day, so it's...

Yeah.

You look at right sight normally.

You look a bit haggard, so I don't look haggard.

There's a bit of a feeling of kiddie-ness on the team today.

Yes.

Yeah, because it's Christmas.

We've got chicken schnitzel to look forward to.

I was hoping to have a turkey dinner, but I suppose it won't be available in March, right?

I'm just happy to accept it.

No, except it.

But the last time we went to that restaurant, we were with our agents, should we just

slap that down on the table.

And it was the height of summer.

And a shepherd's pie was taken with all the vegetables.

Well, I was very, very impressed, but you need stamina in the world of showbiz.

It wasn't me.

I would never choose shepherd's pie.

No.

It was one of our agents.

We have set four.

Yeah.

Anyway, Eve, you look absolutely terrific, and let's look forward to a fantastic evening

tonight.

In the meantime.

Yeah, let's bring it...

We've got enough girly chat.

Let's bring in Stuart.

He's got a very important message about people driving around with full tanks of petrol.

Now, forgive me if this was discussed yesterday, because I wasn't here, but the day before

we talked about panic buying and about the human psychology and how people can be better

informed about the...

Well, about how to cope with a potential shortage, and we just need to keep saying,

there is no shortage of fuel.

Well, so stop introducing the topic.

Well, you see, this is what I'm interested in.

Stuart says, people who drive around with a full tank of petrol need to know it's going

to cost the money.

It makes MPG worse, and you end up spending more self-interest is always an important

motivator.

Thank you, Stuart.

Just worth noting that sometimes we don't understand that actually, although it looks reassuring

to see the gauge in the right place, if you're interested in a full tank, it will actually

slow you down a little bit.

So take notice, please, of Stuart, who is in cowbridge.

I think if you're the type of person who's worried about a fuel shortage, that will mean

nothing to you.

It won't change your behaviour at all.

Because unless the government came in and said, you can only put 30 quids worth of petrol

in your tank, you're always going to think, I need a full tank because it might all run

out.

So until those measures come, and lots of people say that they might, I'm not sure that

that's going to dissuade anybody from fending up the tank, and in fact, not really being

a particular panic merchant myself, having thought, I could easily use some old curtains

during the pandemic.

If the loo roll ran out, I did think today, at the weekend, it's on my list of things

to do to fill up the scope of Monte Garda.

OK.

I'll just say buy some loo rolls.

OK.

No, Stuart, bought some loo rolls this morning, because if I completely and utterly run out,

and I thought, should I buy, you know, 38 loo rolls just in case?

Well, no, I was out with Nancy, just bought four, I was talking to that's very moderate.

I was talking to a cab driver yesterday about Costco, and I'm not a member of Costco.

I think you should be, Jay.

You've got all that stuff.

It's all my stuff.

It's just a pro.

You've got a pro.

I think that's your Saturday morning sorted.

Oh, we've got a loo call on that.

He was just talking about how he saved the fortune, but what he was saying was, and this

is, I suppose, the serious point because he was, obviously, being a cab driver, he was

slightly concerned about petrol, and apparently Costco did a very reasonably price of fuel as

well.

Anyway, look, let's move on, because as you very rightly pointed out, the more we talk

about it.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And also, Donald tells us that he's in high-falutin conversation with all of the Iranians,

and at any moment, the war might be over.

Oh, well, there we are.

The switch will just be flicked off no more war to other lights back on in Iran.

We're all at peace.

Fantastic.

Well, let's put our faith in the great deal-maker to sort everything out over the next couple

of days.

Now, we did have an interested eight-year-old party who may be able to record some of

the Donald Trumpage for us, and also somebody who volunteered there, Northern Irish accents,

which could be quite fun as well.

And if you'd like to volunteer to just voice up some Donald Trumpisms for us, we'd love

to hear from you.

There's not really any huge criteria involved, and this is that we're just like to hear

his words being spoken by other people.

But just if you've got your marbles, that's really the only criteria we've all really.

That's all we'd settle for.

That's all we're asking for, that's what I should have said.

I just wanted to mention this, because I don't know if this is true.

It's from M and her well-behaved restaurant dogs.

On the subject of the Bakerloo line, I was once told that the

screeching of any tubes through bank station, that's the one I currently get off at, is

due to trains having to divert around the vaults of the Bank of England.

Can that be true?

Divert around the vaults.

So there's screeching because you're on a slight curve and a tilt.

I think that is a delicious undenminced.

I'm taking it because it's a great story.

Doesn't have to be true, does it?

No, just tell people.

I do love those two journeys where you go from.

And we've got one here, haven't we?

If you go from London Bridge to Bermansy, it takes nearly two minutes.

I always count it in my head.

And if you look at London Bridge to Bermansy on the map, it's like 200 feet.

We just think sometimes when I get to about 116 seconds, I think, where in London am I?

Because I'm nowhere near London Bridge or Bermansy.

I may well be south of Dullich, and I'm just about to turn around and come all the way back.

Have you ever been on one of those tours of a disused station or an unused tunnel?

I've always quite intrigued by those.

No, the closest thing I've got to that was doing a tour of the Austrian sewers in Vienna.

Which was very, very smelly.

And as the guy delighted in telling us,

would pick the very worst slot because we were doing first thing in the morning.

There was a good slot, wasn't it?

Whereas he said, this is where most of Vienna is doing its ablutions at this time.

So it's a particularly smelly time.

But you're absolutely right.

I'm not sure that at 3.30 you would have thought this is remarkably different.

So many emails about perfume, I think.

I think this is fascinating, isn't it, this?

Well, it is.

And you missed yesterday's fantastic explainer.

Oh, yes, no.

Young, you've to tell me, but go on.

Yes.

Is there a reason just to fill you in?

Did you not listen to the episode on the Good Shopee even fee?

I was absolutely going to.

Don't be daft, don't be daft.

It's really weird listening to yourself.

Or I don't know.

We had a fantastic email from a woman who is basically a scent scientist

and also does a podcast all about scents.

And she said that, yes, there is a very, very super strong version of perfume around now.

Sometimes called an Alexia, which just is really kind of, you know,

power fun to the power of something.

So it stays on you more.

But also there's an actual compound that's now really, really common,

which gives perfumes that really big bass note, that woody,

ambery bass note.

And that's probably the thing that makes you realise that there is more scent around.

So you haven't got those lovely, kind of slightly more gentle top notes of flowers and stuff like that.

It's that very punchy, woody, you know, I'm in a library with leather.

Yeah.

So less of the floral wastes.

That's good actually, that's a library with leather, more of a manly thump.

But I think you're looking at the email there from somebody who just can't tolerate any of this.

Yeah, so this is a anonymous please, a fee for solidarity.

I cannot tolerate any perfume or aftershave at all.

I'm recovering from autoimmune and cephalitis.

And it means my brain is hypersensitive to any solvents or smells like that.

It's so bad, it can start a seizure, even from the smell of floor cleaner.

I spend my life scared of public places.

And if somebody sits opposite me on a train,

doused an aftershave, I have to move.

Previously, I'd explain, but people just don't understand.

So I've stopped bothering.

It's what many people with this condition experience, but it's so rarely understood.

I wish there was a way to make this more widely known.

And it can also be a problem for people with an MCAS MCAS.

Is that a post viral syndrome, something which is much more prevalent post COVID, says anonymous?

So I think a lot more people struggle than we think.

And yes, the cheaper brand of aftershave are definitely the worst.

Well, I'm really sorry to hear about that because, you know,

I'm just being annoyed by it when I head around London

and find myself in a small enclosed space with people who are deliberately whiffing themselves up.

But actually, if it's making you incredibly unwell,

that's so difficult at the moment, isn't it?

Yeah, it sounds absolutely horrible.

Thank you for your emails on the subject of celebrities doing the do.

Libby says, I was waiting in my husband the other day at the treatment centre

in the Wittington Hospital in North London.

And we were both delighted by the plaque commemorating the day back in 2008

that it was declared open by Dermott Manahan.

It must have been quite a moment.

Dermott, I've been waiting for the right people to share this news with, and along you came.

Thank you. And Nikki, a regular correspondent, Nikki, good to hear from you.

As a cub reporter in St Helen's many moons ago,

I was dispatched to cover the illustrious opening

and then relaunch of a local charity shop

with our local nightly news host Stuart Hall, and he did the presenter of North West,

or Good Evening, North West, whatever it was, all for man.

And later, Coronation Street's Percy Sugden.

That's a little bit better. That's better.

It was all glamour, says Nikki.

I also bumped off school once because the then Miss World,

Sylvanas Suarez, was coming to open burdens.

Now, I was a key in autograph hunter.

Lord knows what she made of visiting the great metropolis of St Helen's in the 80s recession,

but she was definitely the first South American I'd ever met.

I don't remember it being very busy, though.

Right, Nikki, thank you very much.

Have you seen the email? Can I just...

Yeah, Interject, please.

Maast cell activation syndrome, that's what MCAS stands for.

The symptoms are multi-systemic, often causing recurring allergy-like reactions,

like flushing, highs, itching, and swellings.

OK. So...

Because, pardon, at all. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

So it's different from a post-viral fatigue syndrome.

I think lots of people who have that also find that the smells are particularly problematic, too.

So keep your smells coming.

Liz, from Coventry, sometimes from Enfield.

You'll never guess what she was doing the other day when she was listening to the podcast.

she walked past that plaque outside Barclay's bank, which commemorates the opening of the

world's first cash machine by Regervani from On the Bosses.

So how wonderful that you were listening and actually at that scene at the time.

She says, I wanted to drop you an email to thank you for keeping me sane-ish for the

last couple of weeks.

My husband said, Major Surgery in London to remove cancer.

The surgery itself was eight as long.

He was then intensive care for five nights and then on a ward for five further nights

I'd saved up a batch of podcasts and those together with your afternoon show and the

off-air playlists have been quite an amazing distraction.

Liz, very best to you and to your husband, I hope he's on the men now and really glad

we were able to keep the company after a fashion during what must have been a really testing

time for you.

There's some very big spookiness going on with people finding themselves in the same

places, the stuff that we're talking about and in Sandra Baker's case, she found herself

looking at a plaque that, well, it's a little bit odd, really, isn't it, Sandra, because

you were very much alive when reading this on the subject of commemorative benches, on

the pier at Galston on sea, on the Norfolk coast as a bench, which details the name and

date of birth, which I've sadly forgotten, but the comment is just how mega-chips, something

that has subsequently stuck in my memory, here comes the spooky bit, whilst on holiday

in Suffolk last year we visited Southworld, a resort much loved by Simon Mayer, Richard Curtis,

etc. It is extraordinary, yes, up there. So you are never more than a Wellington bootaway

from Radio 4 Presence, or somebody who's guested on Radio 4, or somebody who'd like to be on Radio 4.

I admit that Simon Mayer is on, well, he was on a different radio station.

What did, we don't know what's happening. Sitch just walked off your chair, your idea,

those well-flated notes. Do you know what, my kids would say, cool.

Right, back with you. That's normally me playing that part.

We went for a walk on the pier and noticed that the wooden railings along the

pier were densely covered in tiny metal plaques. Do I say that wrong?

I don't know, I say plaque, but I don't know, genomics of commemoration.

I looked down at the railing where I was standing to see a plaque which stated Southworld,

my little bit of heaven, Sandra Baker. It's Sandra Baker's name. Not particularly interesting,

unless your name happens to be Sandra Baker, which is mine, spooky or what, and what were the

chances of me actually standing there, see photo attached? Sandra loves the shows,

she often listens at the gym, where the laugh out loud moments frequently attract strange looks

from fellow gym goers. They don't know what they're missing. Well, they absolutely don't,

they'll be listening to pump up my biceps. And in fact, they'll be much, much happier if they

just listen to us. And there it is, my little bit of heaven, Sandra Baker. That word really,

really freed me out. Yes, so my name on a bench. That is really quite discombobulating. So,

well done, Sandra, thank you for telling us about it. Our guest today is an author called

Catherine Carr, who's written a book called Who's the Favorite, the Loving Messy realities

of sibling relationships. And I think Catherine's done her best in this book to cover every sort

of family and situation. But I guess inevitably some people will feel that they're not included.

So she does talk about only children, she talks about merged families, she talks about step siblings,

she talks about twins. And if I missed anything out. And also actually interestingly, a group of

people I must admit, I didn't know this expression, glass siblings. Do you know, have you heard of that?

No, what are they? They are people who may feel that their parents look through them,

because they have a sibling with additional needs. And I'd never thought about what it might be

like to grow up in a family where, quite necessarily, the needs of one of the children,

basically, it has to be the focal point, I guess, of the parents' energies. And so much of their

attention is necessarily given to the child who requires additional help. But that can mean that

the other siblings are, they're not neglected, but it's a very different way to grow up, isn't it?

Yeah, it would be, wouldn't that. So hopefully there'll be something for everybody in that conversation.

But I do think, and Catherine does make the point in the book, that your sibling order,

if you're not an any child, so if you're eldest, middle, youngest, will have an impact on you.

Now I was talking to Eve earlier, you are the, where do you fit in? I'm number two of four.

Right. So I'm middle. But the dynamic is interesting in your family, because the youngest child

is a boy. So I was saying that in our family, gender slightly overthrows, because with three

girls and a boy, and when we were growing up, there was so much tension between all the sisters

that our little brother, we all kind of doted on him, because he was neutral.

And as he turned out, all right? He's doing okay. He's doing okay. Yeah, how far away from

the rest of years? He's literally in Manchester, a universe. Okay, well that's not too far.

That's not too bad. I thought you were going to say he's a male, but

and then we would just have had a long pause. I think as much as he probably does exhibit

youngest, youngest child energy, he probably has it tenfold as well, because we all gave it to him.

Yes, yeah. Right. And do you think in your experience, and this is an open question to both of you,

do you think that you have ended up in your adult lives getting on better with people who are

in the same place in the family as you? No, I don't think it's had any impact on my friendships.

So I'm the eldest of two. You're the youngest of two. I'm just trying to think with that.

I think most of my friends are, no, they're, that I can't generalise about anything. Nobody's,

everybody's in a slightly different place in the family, middle. I think it's interesting if you,

I've got one friend who is the youngest child, oh, and she's female and she had two elder brothers,

so she's in the sort of similar situation to Eve where I think she would probably acknowledge

she might have been favoured as the youngest and the only girl. So that's possibly it. And what about

with partners? Well, so actually my boyfriend is one of four as well. Yeah, interesting. And his

sister has also got a husband who's one of four. Interesting. This is slightly where I'm trying to

go. Okay, so where is your partner in his birth order? He's actually number four, but I think there's

something about attracting that kind of like loud family or busy family and being comfortable

in that dynamic and in that environment. So I agree. I think there's a really, there's a really

interesting affinity in and of course the would be where you just recognise certain things that you've

experienced and and been through. But also I definitely, definitely get on better with people

who are younger siblings. It's it's definitely a point of shared experience and and quite often

solidarity actually. Yeah, no, I'm just thinking going through my little address, mental

address, but no, there's no, I have got some friends who are eldest children, but not the majority.

Do you know many only children? Because I don't. Well, I do. Yes. And actually one of my

very best friends isn't isn't only child. And I think only children, does Catherine

Carr tackle this in the book? Well, she talks about, I tell you, there's an interesting quote from

an author who I think we're going to talk to in a couple of weeks. Sabine, I hope I've got

Anna right, Durant or Durant, Durant. She's just written a book about Greece, a thriller,

set in Greece, which I wanted to do. And she talks about being an only child and says that

she was very, very conscious always of her mother's moods. Now, that's not to say that her mother

had Mrs. I don't know whether her mother had ups and down moods or whatever it might have been,

but she was very, very wedded to how her mother was feeling. And I think I hadn't

thought about that aspect of being an only child at all. I think there's so much that's attached

to only children that sometimes seems incredibly unfair. And in fact, in, in a bit trees about Jenny

Murray, it is noted that she was an only child. And I think there's then a whole series of tropes

and assumptions that are made about people who are only children. And actually it's become increasingly

common as our birth rate is dropping. I think in previous generations, it was quite a standout

thing to not have siblings. I don't think it's necessarily the case now. And I think for some

children, you know, who are grown-ups now, it just must be really irritating because the same

thing is not said, oh, yes, well, of course, she's a younger sister. Oh, well, of course, you know,

she's one of the elders of nine. Three. Yes, it's like that. But only children just get this

absolute spotlight of assumption all over them. And also the parents of putting all their eggs

in the one basket, aren't they? And that absolutely has to have an impact on how you're brought up

and expectations of you. And I think actually in Jenny Murray's case. Oh, I don't know, Jane,

I think there are some expectations on, you know, on anybody within a family. That's what I'm

trying to say. I'm not sure that the more common it gets, I think the less we should tell.

Well, you're really different. Yeah, I know in Jenny's case, and she wrote about this. So it's not

a secret that her mom just literally said to her, I had to prefer to son. And that's just, you know,

cool. I mean, it is incredible. That's what some people are prepared to do. That is just

anyway, horrible. Listen to what Catherine's got to say. She is the, let me, she's the middle

of three, three sisters. But interestingly, they didn't actually spend huge amounts of time

together in their childhood because her parents marriage broke up when she was 10, I think.

Anyway, she'll explain all that in the conversation. But it's an interesting topic. And I think it's

a topic that is underexplored, I would say, because also, do you pick a label in a family,

or are you kind of given one? So are you a beautiful elder storta because that's who you are?

Or are you made to be that? And is your younger sibling or are your younger siblings just kind of,

I don't know, allowed to get away with more, allowed to be different? I don't know. I don't know.

I've tried very hard to treat both my children the same, but you don't. You do, I think, I would say,

I've coseted the younger one. And possibly continue to do so. She won't be listening.

I remember being so delighted to have one of each, because it's just me and my sister, although we have

over the years had an awful lot of stepbrothers and sisters as well, but it's just, it's just

when she talked about that too. Did I mention that? Yeah, it was a very, very close

age. There's only 14 months between us. And both of us have gone on to have a boy and a girl.

And I think both of us were very, very glad of that. Yeah, I think it's some, although there was a

moment when my daughter was born. So I had her at home very suddenly. She arrived out of the blue.

I mean, I didn't know it was pregnant. You weren't one of those women who just went to the

loop. I just didn't know. I was just a pretty, pretty big pool, by the way, baby. No, I wasn't

one. Has ever been in that situation. Please tell us how that happens. Yeah, just taking it anyway.

But I mean, there was quite a lot of confusion. And obviously it was quite a sudden arrival.

And the paramedics made it just in time, just in time. And I was a little bit out of it because

it had been a very, very sudden birth. And it was, it was just a bit too soon. And so I'd

said as soon as my daughter came out, of course, the first thing you want to know is, is what you've

had. And actually, my husband did misinformed me. And there was a couple of minutes. So I thought,

I'm the mother of two boys. And now it took a long time for that to go and change. It was such a

weird, because you suddenly have this huge vision of your life. Yeah, because it's very different.

Yeah, what it had. Yeah. And what was observational skills like normally?

I think to be absolutely fair to him, he must have been quite shocked himself. Yes, no,

quite shocked. And also, I think there's a, you know, there is a massive responsibility of you

on you. If your partner goes into labor too soon at home, you know, all of that type of stuff.

So I don't blame him. We used to laugh about it a lot. But I did think, oh, I've got two

boys. And that's kind of worked my way back from that quite often. As it turned out, it was just

really strange. I may be completely alone in this, but help me out if I'm not. This one comes

in from Eleanor, all day. We were talking again about silly aisles, genuinely, because

I'm getting a lot of attention from a, nobody, nobody had had a good time getting there.

Yes, it's just the getting there, isn't it? Well, no, some people hadn't had a better time.

One of our correspondents had just been on a tour and the only thing that she'd seen through

the fog was Harold Wilson's bungalow. It's okay. Which, I mean, you can't build a holiday around

that really, can you? However much of a fan of Harold Wilson, you may have been.

Something about it's so British. A good time was had by all. This one comes in from Eleanor,

who says, I've been to the silly aisles once and feel obliged to come to its defence, given the

bad rep in recent emails. And they run a swim event of 15 kilometres where you swim between all

the islands. This one's for you, James. Yeah. So you brought out on a boat to an island to start and

then swim to the next island and then then walk across it and swim to the next one, etc, etc. You

can do it over one day. And Eleanor does say in brackets, very intense, or two days in brackets,

a bit more relaxed, but still a challenge. I did it once in the sun, Sean. It was beautiful.

The water is so clear. It's like the Caribbean. We stayed on St Mary's. It's very quiet at night

because there's no light pollution. The sky is amazing. And you can see the milky way.

Tresco seemed fantastic as I walked across it as we made our way to the next swim leg. Never

got to visit it properly. We flew from Exeter on a little prop plane, but then the fog descended

right apart, so we had to get the famous boat back. Luckily the sea was calm and we saw loads of

dolphins. So I think that helps to better explain why people absolutely love the silly aisles,

because you've got the milky way. Well, the milky way. Or Harold Wilson's bungalow in the fog.

It sounds very beautiful. Yeah, you could write it. I can see a melancholy album cover from the 1970s

with the title Harold Wilson's bungalow in the fog. That was the my first ever memory of news,

was Harold Wilson's resignation. What's it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I just remember coming home from

school. I must have been about 11. What a big newspaper billboard said, Wilson resigns.

And immediately, Fee, I was sucked into the world of current affairs and I've never, ever got out.

Well, when they make the biopic of your life, where you are saved by Julie Walters. Okay.

Just FYI, in case you're interested, I want to be played by Bob Hoskins. No.

Danny DeVito to push. What about a little Bobby DeNiro? Bobby in his he day. What about the chap

from saltburn? I don't know why that's funny. I don't know why it's funny. I had to believe this.

Right. Okay. I mean, we have had some email saying, are you getting funny yet? No, I think we're

just getting madder. And I think it's partly we're being driven mad by current affairs. I'm just

looking up at the screen and there's just no, but just look, that's classic retired general there

on the screen, giving us the benefit of his wisdom. There's something about the Gile and

none of a certain age you've been in the military. Or is it a fleece either way? Well, they're having

the time of their lives at the moment. They are at the moment. And that's why the rest of us should

have to take refuge in idiotic remarks. Janine has written a thoughtfully mail. Now, she and a

group of friends lost a dear friend of theirs last year. And naturally, she says, a group of

us thought, right, let's get a memorial bench by the Thames in Kingston. She used to run there

all the time. It was a lovely wholesome, very British plan. But here's the plot twist. The council

basically said, absolutely not. Benches are now too high maintenance. Which raises the question,

what are these benches doing? Demanding spa days? Filing complaints? Anyway, I went down a

fault investigative spiral. I contacted Westminster where our friend worked and Portsmouth where she

grew up, thinking surely somebody somewhere still supports a good old bench with a slightly wonky

brass plaque. No, nowhere. Nationwide bench ban vibes. Apparently councils have collectively

decided no more sitting down and remembering people, thanks. But I'm really sorry to hear that.

That seems rubbish. It seems really rubbish. And Jane, in these cash strap times, you want to

thought that councils will make the opportunity of every penny that is being offered to them?

Well, I mean, Jenny goes on, I'm just trying to process this bleak new reality. A future with no

quietly emotional, riverside benches. No slightly faded plaques saying, beloved Dave, who loved

this view and a good sandwich. What are we supposed to do instead? Put QR codes on lamp posts.

I mean, I'm completely with you, Janine. And I love that expression quietly emotional,

because I know exactly what she means. You can just suddenly read the plaque,

picture the people that are being remembered. And it's just a moment of genuine reflection.

And it's lovely. Oh, no, totally. And it's all part of being in a community unit that you take

the time to remember that somebody else is here before you. So it seemed bloody bonkers. Let's start

campaign. Well, we sort of have in our own way, because we are influencers. Now, do you, I like this

from Jillian Newbury. For your coffee table book, the one that you suggested, and then I also suggested

within nanoseconds of you suggesting it, Sabrina came to Ipswich in the early 60s to open the

Gondoliers coffee shop. That's what we want, isn't it? We want pictures of that. She's a singer.

Yeah, she took me find out. There was great excitement as she lent out of an upstairs window to

cut a ribbon and delighted all the men. Love to all on the podcast, Jill. Well, thank you very

much, Jill. And we're just trying to find out exactly who Sabrina was. Early 60s. So we're

looking for a 60s pop starlet just called simply Sabrina. Yeah, I mean, the problem is if you

if you pop it in now, whoever Sabrina was and whatever she produced has been completely overtaken

by Sabrina Carpenter. Oh, of course, yeah. I don't think Sabrina Carpenter will ever find herself

in a position where she's popping to Ipswich to open a coffee shop. You never know. But show

business is a cruel old world. So you don't know. And this is another celebrity spot. It was the mid 80s

and I was a young PE teacher at a secondary school in Redbridge, Reminisces Wendy. We had the

end of year prize giving and the school decided to invite an ex pupil Nigel Ben the boxer

to give the keynote speech. On the stage of the school hall, the headmaster and deputy heads were

all dressed up in cap and gowns, members of the governing body and smart suits and hats and

twin sets and pearls. That was the women. She says several hundred pupils all sitting in the hall

expectantly waiting for the words of wisdom. They were about to hear. Well, after about an hour

of prizes and the headmaster regaling us all with the successes of the year, we excitedly awaited

Nigel Ben to see what pearls he was going to impart. He was called up to speak and stood up wearing

a shiny black shell suit with lots of gold jewelry weighing him down. He stood in the middle of the

stage held up his fists and claimed, look at these. This is all you need to get on in life.

Forget education. Just use these. They've made me rich and famous.

Well, I mean, he cut to the chase there, didn't he? And fairness had made a living and a good one

as a boxer. The pupils were not expecting this and started cheering and clapping whilst the head

turned a shade of puse on one of the governors walked off the stage. Right, Wendy, thank you very

much. That's Sabrina. But that's not 60s Sabrina. No, no, so she was, she was, this, this Sabrina was

big in the 1980s. That's from 1987. But the Sabrina that Jill's reminiscing about came in the early

60s. Or could it be possible that possibly it's a typo? It could be a typo. Yeah, it could be.

Get back to us, Jill. This is the news from Berkshire, we all need. During her career, this Sabrina

had 10 international hits, including three number ones. She was the queen of Italian disco

high energy. And that is energy. This episode of Offer is brought to you by Simpson Travel,

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I think we should probably go to the guest if that's all right.

If he's got a mouthful of mini egg so she's already sort of racing.

Now this is partly because our guest Catherine Carr came in with some gifts for us at some mini

eggs. She's the author of who's the favorite? The loving, messing, messy realities of sibling

relationships. Now as the blurb to the book says Catherine, our sibling relationships are the

longest we'll ever have but that doesn't mean they are without complication and that's true,

isn't it? That's totally true because they're unlike any other relationship I think and that's

what's so interesting is I heard you saying just before I came on air you know you have birth

order all this middle baby and maybe more. So your relationship starts sort of vertical,

they're hierarchical and then unlike any other relationship in your life they sort of can evolve

over all of those decades, maybe eight or nine decades into something more equitable and

peer-like and that's quite a shift and it can be a challenge and it often doesn't happen. People

have their sort of roles and their labels and their identities part of which is birth order

but a lot of which is dictated by the circumstances that surround a family like money or whether they

live environment health or sorts of things and sometimes they don't go beyond those. So when

you're thrown back together which can often happen in middle age as siblings to deal with

aging parents and things like that if you haven't really evolved beyond two dimensional labels

of who's the oldest who's the responsible one who gets away with murder etc that is a really

fraught time and the studies show that's when things can go really wrong. It's absolutely fascinating.

Now Fee is you're the eldest of no you're the youngest of two daughters. Yes. Yeah and what are

you Catherine? I'm the middle of three girls. Right and I'm the eldest of two daughters. Here we are.

So okay and I would say it absolutely emphatically has had an impact the fact that I'm the elder of

two girls and have you ever met anybody who simply denies that their sibling relationships or

their birth order has had the slightest impact on them? Really interestingly I have never met an

oldest daughter who denies it. So I think we're gender intersects with being the first born particularly

when you're talking about care but also that kind of emotional caregiving or being slightly

relied upon to look after the subsequent siblings or being responsible or being a little bit

perfectionist and neurotic as a result. Obviously in other cultures being first born and maybe a girl

or boy is completely different so in some parts of the world if you're the first born boy

you may be sent out to work really early and you don't get the chance to finish your education

and do better in a vertical as like oldest siblings do sometimes in the west but I think the oldest

daughter thing is fascinating. What about youngest daughter? Well the research for youngest

children it's interesting you've got children I've got children you've got children you know when

you've got a toddler and a baby for example and you're generally more preoccupied with the toddler

because developmentally they're into things emptying the top of a drawer or whatever and the baby

might be plonked in a bouncy seat in the corner that's sort of where I see it starting you know

when you make eye contact with the baby who's just there they almost make jazz hands and they

eye contact and they smile they kind of desperate for some of the attention and time and that you

can give them so I sort of it's very simplistic to think it's just about that but in your own

family with those those circumstances around your own family you are always relative you are always

in that order and that does I think mean something. Tell us about your own childhood and where it

happened and and how it all unfolded so I think my childhood is what predisposed me to be interested

in siblings so we moved to Holland when I was six there's three girls so the oldest becks six seven

eight-ish maybe and the baby was six months old CJ and my dad worked in ice cream which is cheerful

I think we should say what he invented the feast yeah yeah it's just absolutely kidding no I don't

know why I'm shilling like this I should be working it's just fantastic he was in a team of two

or something who came it was basically how to get as much chocolate on a stick well he succeeded

is so magical I think he's an incredible man yeah we say this entire at the end of talking about

absolutely carry on so we moved to Holland to do that among other things and when I was 11 my

parents split up really common what wasn't so common is that my mum left and my little sister

went with her so she was six at the time I was 11 becks was about 13 and not long after my dad and

me and my older sister moved back to the UK leaving my mum and my little sister in Holland

so there's a lot I could say about that but really in terms of siblings what it does is

it really um what's the word exaggerates the separation that every sibling has in their childhood

because even if you grow up together your experience is a different but if you grow up a part

your experiences are really really different different countries different parents different biscuits

different bolognese recipe the whole thing yeah so I think what it did is me I never take my

sisters for granted I think you can if you grow up together because you assume they'll always be

there I've never thought that and we've worked really hard to be friends and to love each other

in the way that we do and to be so close so that's sort of where the the idea really the germ of

the idea came from yes and have there been other children as a result of your parents having

other relationships no so we gained step sisters step three step sisters and a step brother

but no halves okay otherwise known as cement babies right cement babies they might cement the new

families together I see gosh I mean you do try in the book to cover every possibility yeah including

only children and um I do think we would feel and I were talking about this earlier and there's

just such a weight about that term as though the individual there's some sort of responsibility for

this when they have no say whatsoever uh who did you meet to to hear about being an only child

oh all sorts of people but most interestingly a psychotherapist um called Louise Halling who

remembers growing up in the borders in Scotland quite Presbyterian quite quite an environment

and she remembers being quite small and people bending down to her height when she was a little girl

and just sort of saying one word in her face spoiled she was sort of how do you know you don't know

any other experience when you're a child you swim in the soup you swim in you don't know any other

environment you don't know any other reality and when you're older I think it's bonkers to assume

that having siblings could rescue you from being lonely and automatically make you happy because

sometimes and often they don't and to assume the other which is being an only child automatically

means you're lonely because the research shows actually only children are really good at making

friends because they value close relationships and they nurture them sometimes better than siblings

well all of us who were first children were only children for a while

and we're born into a really an adult environment yeah and I think if you're particularly

the first grandchild in a family the amount of attention is can be really quite overwhelming

yeah is is that good or bad do you think I think I mean there's lots of things that come to bear

on that including age gap so how quickly you might be quote unquote dethroned in your mother's

affections by the by the next child that has a bearing on it so what your memory might be like

my children are 20 months apart they don't really remember life without each other well actually

you feel you're in your sister how many months apart we're only 14 months apart so do you remember

life without no you're the baby yes she's she's the she's the she's always been there but there is

there is quite a there's quite a strong kind of reaction isn't there in an awful lot of

toddlers who are presumably around the two three four-year-old mark when they get dethroned

which is completely understandable because you go from total immersion to having to share the

bath and and and and and awful lot of people do say that that can carry on all the way through

your life you just you're just not a person who shares easily yeah I think that can be true

Lewis Goodall I spoke to you for the podcast which came before the book and he has a little

sister called Meg and I said to him on the podcast did you have a nickname for her and he said yeah

go away I mean he was so resentful he was four or five and I think potentially the only grand

child as well as the only child so he was this very happy little sort of recipient of funnel

detention from all of these adults and it took quite a long time him to see her as a person

someone who could help him just remind us there's a funny story in the book about you're I think

you're feeding your baby and you're elder child who didn't have very many words I think they were

just I think to talk was not impressed no he was sitting on this tiny little sort of wicker arm

chair that I used to get out for that time of night and put in front of the night garden

theme tune still gives me a bit you know flashbacks but so he'd sit on there and have a bottle

himself and I was feeding the baby and he kind of side-eyed me for a bit and then came

totalling over with the bottle in his dressing gown and he hadn't said a full sentence by that point

it's 20 months and he just looked at the baby and he said put that and then he pointed at the

best and it on the floor in there good point well made I was proud and worried yes Julia says I

was born on my sister's third birthday she describes it as awkward whether it still is

uh tansy says my daughter's an only child when people used to suggest that only children were

spoiled she'd replied no I'm just well looked after and from Emma I'm the youngest of three but

I'm the only girl I'm relied upon to be care and support-giver I've troubled deferring to my

brothers in this role when I'm cast aside when they appear I feel like my mom favors the boys she

would deny this as I do to my own children says Emma um yes I mean that is it I mean it's been a

theme actually throughout the program with people messaging to say it's all very well we had one

earlier a message from a woman who is the youngest of three and was treated as the baby of the

family by her elder brothers until the point at which she became the person who had to look out

the old folk and all of a sudden okay she had to rise to the occasion yeah and I think that's sort

of evolving of roles it's really it's really difficult and I include the main chunk on favoritism

intentionally on the chapter on a strangement because really although there's not very much

research that shows how being the favorite or being perceived as the favorite affects your

sibling relationships there's certainly quite a lot of research about how being the favorite or

being perceived as the favorite affects you psychologically and I think it's this idea that

you felt sort of the chill of being outside of your parents' affection for one reason or another

or in really dysfunctional families slightly being blamed for the dysfunctionality this escape

goat idea we're all right the problems are caused by that one that really troubles me and I

sort of quote the bear the TV series in there the Christmas episode with Jamie Lee Curtis is

the most sort of cartoonish grotesque version of all of that these sorts of terribly dysfunctional

roles and how people go home to their parents and start rehearsing and replaying those roles

can we talk about this is favoritism basically that the polite term is parental differential

treatment I just want to mention Ben who says I think he's just beaten our previous correspondent

my mom's waters broke at my brother's 10th birthday party you certainly put in a marker down

there that's for sure was that you Ben did you result from those waters breaking let us know

so favoritism is it is it inevitable that perhaps parents dads and moms will look more fondly

upon the quotes easier child is that just inevitable I think research does show that the more

amenable quote unquote good child can have an easier relationship with their parents and I think

that's sometimes gendered so the good oldest author sometimes might more commonly fall into that

category which I think is a bit worrying I find that a bit troubling as a woman but I think

what favoritism does is it really sort of explodes this whole idea about the family which is

we have our separate childhoods and our separate experiences we are not experiencing the same thing

at the same time we're born at different moments we have different personalities which bring out

different parts of our parents personalities those relationships will be different so your memories

of what your dad was like or your mom was like will be really different to what you're sibling

remembers simply because you know with your own children at certain times they need different

things and you have to step up in different ways how to do that without making your child feel

that affection is contingent on them performing in one way or another way or that the trouble

make against loads of help and they're just left alone to be competent I think that's it's not

a parenting book but I think there is quite a lot in there for parents I found it quite interesting

did you meet many people along the way who had actively worked incredibly hard to turn around

the positions that they'd been born into always I think it happened I think often in adolescence

and early adulthood there's a moment where in the chapter about friendship siblings stop seeing

each other as they have seen them forever in this sort of parental context if you like in the house

in their roles sharing the remote and arguing the back of the car and Dan Snow said at best you

know he went to the pub one day with his little sister who he says he was really mean to and he

regrets she was in sixth form he was maybe a bit older she was dancing his friends were there and he

saw how they saw her like really cool really good dancer really good company and he was sort of

shocked he was like oh so seeing your sibling out of that context out in the wide world where we

are so many more things than just the funny one the clever one the one who's good at maths the one

who's messy is so important so I think I'm in not giving advice her might give advice but

maybe go out for lunch with your siblings without your parents now and again and talk about your

whole grown up adult life rather than just going home for Christmas and doing that thing that

you always do yeah and wouldn't it be true also that you can only have a really change that position

if the sibling is willing to change their position to yeah I spoke to I'm Daisy Goodwin

screenwriter and playwright an amazing person and she said you know lots of older sisters

sort of my half and puff about all this responsibility and they haven't really stopped to think

that maybe they're taking on that role and that without it their identity might

be tricky for them to manage I mean recently my little sister I was overwhelmed with work and quite

anyway I was in a state and I was on the phone to her and she said right check your email

five minutes later she booked me an Airbnb paid for it it's about half a mile away from my house

she was like leave the puppy leave the dog leave the children go for four days get this done

I've paid for it is sorted and then she said I can be like your big sister sometimes I can take

care of you but it is a bit of a weird feeling you have to sort of step aside and get out of your

main character energy and be sort of open to the idea that maybe everyone can do quite a lot of

things it's really interesting hearing you say that because there's a part of me that's slightly

flinching yeah exactly the younger sibling moving and starting to take charge of organizing something

by the way it was Ben who was born as the result of his mother's waters breaking at his

brothers 10th birthday party and he's now 43 right from anonymous just because she's siblings

it doesn't mean you've got to get on regardless my sister's two and a half years older than me

when we were children I spent all my time with my dad watching horse racing and my sister

spent all her time with our mother sewing I've been an outdoorsy horsey person all my life my

sister's been an indoorsy sewing person all her life yes I mean just because you are related

sometimes you have absolutely nothing in common yeah but I have to say as parents age and is the

as the inevitable hits the you know what you're going to have to find a point of connection

because you're going to have to deal with it together I think it's only fair I think that's right

and I think the way that DNA shared out you don't have the same amount of DNA with all of your

full siblings so maybe yes yes maybe there's biological reasons why you don't get on with one

as well as the other but also I think the reason that I include the trickier and there are lots of

tricky sibling relationships in the book is a sort of to ask people to talk more about siblings

and then to be a bit more honest about the ones that aren't all hallmark cards and memes on the

internet and to be honest about that and then maybe when we're honest about that we can then

move on and say okay but right as you say we are going to have to sort these things out and get

together and be grown up so maybe some of the language in here will help people get to whatever

point they need to get to with their siblings yeah now because you're a middle child and you're

happy to own that you you described quite surprised you described them as quite manipulative or they

have to be able to manipulate now what what do you mean when it was described to me by a psychotherapist

called drew law who uses adlerian theory so Alfred Adler was a contemporary of Freud's who's

kind of one of the best known birth order theory dude from the 19th century and he says that

middles you have the first as you say born into the adult environment and then you have the next

and then if you have another you create a middle and that middle can ally really easily with the

baby potentially against the oldest who's maybe a bit more perfectionist or like the adults or

a bit of a goody two shoes it doesn't always happen but or could ally more with the with the

oldest against the baby who's come along and upset you know the apple cart so they can tend to

be good at being people pleases getting on manipulative is the sort of not so nice way of putting

it but they do tend to be able to get on with all sorts all the time he says in his research right

and you're talking about yourself there so you've been curious and another area which I hadn't

thought of and I'm really glad you mentioned it the glass siblings because they are they're a group

who often have quite a lot to do and a lot of responsibility and they can get overlooked yeah

these are siblings of a child with an additional need or disability so the expression means that

sometimes because of the extreme need of their sibling they feel like they're looked through

straight to the child he needs more help so they're given less sometimes in terms of attention

and asked for more so it can on the sort of more problematic end of that lead to

parentification where the child is pulled into sort of performing roles they really shouldn't

but even if they don't even in a happy family and I spoke to a lot where the child with a

disability is one of the children and everybody gets on with it even so because resources it's

all about resources parents will give where the need is that does create a dynamic which can be

something that they live with as they grow up for quite a long time I found that chapter

probably the one of the most interesting to write because there was so much about it that I

hadn't considered and that I really want to consider now when I meet families in that situation

yeah I mean I thought this is just it's fascinating this book and it's just um you really you really

do read it and learn something about yourself I mean it's it's quite troubling some of Catherine I'm

I'm here to tell you really is um current gone I was just going to ask if you had unlimited feasts

when you were growing up once your father had made them yeah yeah we did and in the it well we had

unlimited ice cream fee so in the 80s sometimes you would bring home dry ice in his briefcase

and then we could have top of the pops in the kitchen and ice you just open his briefcase sometimes

and there'd be like strawberry sauce ice cream and a lump of dry ice and I thought this isn't it

it's better than a calculation a copy of the FT isn't it tell you what don't you be right in a

misery memory please god and child I haven't no you haven't you have written this gives me a god

what a wonderful it's almost like you're in radio uh the book is called who's the favorite uh

the loving messing realities of sibling relationships and very quickly in one word um you have

got a podcast what's your podcast called it's called relatively yeah and that features siblings

talking to you Catherine about being a sibling and what it's meant to you and some of the complications

love you see thank you very much thank you for having me Catherine Car author of who's the favorite

and I think if you've everyone has got a family story everyone's got a family so I think

everyone will find some nugget in that book uh to reassure or invigorate I would say more

more or another um people are still asking about fee and her lack of interest in kitchen roll

now this is from kit who's in marine county which I think is that california I think so yeah

I'm a quite seldom user of kitchen roll says kit mostly favoring cloths however something

I learned at the marine county farmers market from a lovely strawberry seller place a sheet of

paper towel in a ponet of soft fruit and it will last longer ideally transfer them to an air-tight

plastic box for even longer life alongside the paper towel it also works really brilliantly well

in bags and boxes of salad leaves genuinely kitchen roll has revolutionized my fridge over here

in northern california now I would like to put some science on that why is that happening

kit can you tell us why that's happening um is it because the paper towel absorbs the moisture

or maybe mold or spores who knows so one of our unbelievable listeners will know just like our joy of

scent scientist just absolutely nailed the problem with scent jane and fee at time stock radio and

just to wet your appetite and that's wet which has gotten ancient I'll come to you you've got

her hand up next week we have got the delights of john batiste stigable and woodland boyed

in guest corner that all men will we be all right all right let's ask them all about kitchen roll

let's find a little parish notice yeah we did originally promise that the book club was going

up tomorrow there's been a scheduling conflict so it'll be next Friday now but thank you everyone

for sending me your emails in and that will also be a bonus episode of an interview that jane's done

going out tomorrow okay well right thank you very much indeed um goodbye thank you okay bye

you

congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another offer with jane and fee thank you

if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day Monday to Thursday

two till four on time's radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you'd listen to this you'll

understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free

times radio app offer is produced by eave solsbury and the executive producer is raise your cutler

you

this episode of offer with jane and fee is sponsored by explore do you know what fee I've never been

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