An alternative plan for Welsh rugby?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people, so when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue, so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn ads generate the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. This podcast is sponsored by Pocket Hose. I got to tell you, being a homeowner, there's so many things you have to think about all the time. For example, I have to replace my hoses every single year, because they're weak, they get tangled, and there's kinks. Then I found the Pocket Hose Ballistic.

1:02This is the upgrade I've been looking for for a long time, man. It's reinforced with a liquid crystal polymer used in bullet profess. You know what that means? No kinks, it's not going to get tangled. It also comes with this pocket pivot, which gives you a total freedom of movement, and the spigot has like a 360 degree rotation, which is pretty cool. There's also this upgraded UV coating they added for free, so your hose basically looks brand new all the time. Right now, when you get the new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a free 360 degree rotating pocket pivot, and a free thumb drive nozzle. Go to pockethose.com slash podcast. That's pockethose.com slash podcast. For your two free gifts with purchase, pockethose.com slash, P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Hello, welcome to the Scrum 5 podcast. At two men right at the heart of the biggest debate in Welsh rugby on the show today. One of them, not James Hook, we'll get to him in a second. It's Rob Regan, he's in the studio, he's got an alternative plan

2:03to keep four professional teams in Wales. We've also got Swansea Council leader, been very prominent in the media over the past two months. Rob Stewart explaining, well, why they're taking legal action over the future. Of the Ospreys, we'll put both of those arguments under the microscope, but first we'll start, where we should, things on the field, results, performances on the field. Hi, James, how are you? How are you? Good, good, Lauren Salter, how are you? Very well, thank you. Good, and what's your highlight of the weekend? I'm going to go at the return of Jack. Ah, nice. The return of the Jack, return of the Mac. You know, I mentioned that in studio on the weekend and they didn't know I was on vote. Anyway, Jack Morgan back, second half out in Travisa and his first involvement was a try-7 turn over. Yeah, along that second. Yeah, I was just brilliant, you know, and I think we weren't really speaking a huge amount about Jack doing the six nations because others had filled that shit.

3:08So well, Alex Mann, James both, but what a great position, I think, to be in now, depth at seven, and I think more for the region. We often talk about what Jack being back means for Wales, but it means a lot for the Ospreys, and I think having him there lifts morale, I feel. Had a crucial part of the season for the Ospreys, and they'd obviously fight him for that playoff spot or a top eight spot. So it comes at a good time, really, for the Ospreys, like you said, yeah, he'd had two or three turnovers, but that crucial one on the line and the back row for Wales went really well in the six nations, but somewhere like Jack, he's a different level. And that consistent level, that's what a nine or a ten performance. He never dips below that, does he? Your highlight? My highlight, I'm going to go for the Elrith Low. Oh, try. Have we looked at Ospreys? The cross-field kick from the three-in-line gap. Because that's not new take to it. So just describe to anyone who has not seen this show, it's off the charts. Yeah, well, it make a break down either of the bottles, and then, is it, is it, is it, is it,

4:09is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, flicks the ball, is it, is it bouncing ball? It's bouncing ball on the floor, and then these amcars comes in and just curls it, like Garth Beel and the Boone are both. For the cross-field kick and Elrith Low takes it. It's a thousand-singred ball. Yeah, it's on the half-followy. The outside the boot. Yeah. And it just lands straight into the hands of Elrith Low. Who does this weird pause stop to beat the last defender? Brilliant. It's absolutely beautiful. My highlights, again, a Scarlet fan doing the same as what I said last week, at half time, the Scarlet Zebra game. Oh, about a Zebra. LAUGHTER But I mean, it makes us feel good that we're back to somewhere where the success, when you complain about the quality of the opposition, as opposed to quality of the performance, and gave him a webs last minute try, for Leicester. Have you seen that against Bristol? Absolute banger of a try, one of the tries of the season. And it's a great finish for him, who looks all of a sudden, like an international rugby player about it. I don't know if he's just bulked out, he's just filled with confidence. All of a sudden, that was a brilliant finish to a brilliant game.

5:11Yeah, he's a switch when you're going with. I'm still going with yours. You're going with that, yeah. I'm going to go like since you took it, right? Yeah, loads to get into. Welcome to the show. Let's start with the victory. And the Scarlet's made it look pretty easy, I would say. Hello, Gordon, I scored after a couple of minutes in a charred tailor in the corner. I thought the Scarlet was really clinical in the first half. Well, it sat down at the start of the game, he thought, I was just going to go. So it was a bit of a dead rubber, you know, 15th and 16th in the league. Neither team has anything to play for in terms of the playoff spot. I thought the Scarlet's were clinical. I know Zebra is struggling, like you say, you could always go on and say, how poor the opposition are, but the Scarlet's still at the front up. And I thought they were excellent. So variety, like I say, charred tailor played well, uh, flesh and what, what a sign that he's been for the Scarlet's.

6:13Just every time he touches a ball, he seems to make yards, isn't he? He makes a big, uh, a big influence on that Scarlet's team. Kenneth Davis was in on commentary that, um, apparently he's got Scottish blood, as he, which we should whisper more than anything else. He shouldn't have said it at all. No, not exactly. Well, it's out, Ken said it. Um, yeah, he's, he's got great footwork, at least wrong with any of the other brilliant ballers. Yeah, from kick-offs, the team's kicked to him. And it can say he makes five, ten meters. And just, just for, uh, a team for half-backs, just how much easier that is to exit and, and play office, it makes such a difference. And, you know, Kevin Leggejohn said at a decent game, you know, he, he's still a school kid, and he, you know, and I think he's benefited from Costello being injured and being around the Welsh squad, so he's, he's got his opportunity. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a good, positive display. I know Zebra came back into it second half, but it was game over by half-time, isn't it? Yeah, 24-0, half-time. Their first tri-bonus point win of the season. Um, and what a time to do it. Ladies' Day, a pack of scarlets. Was it?

7:13Such a shame I wasn't able to be there. Was, is that, is that very much, like, forced-last ladies' day? Yeah, I think it's just an excuse to get dressed up, I imagine. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm so very glad most looking ladies are my Instagram. I've been, I've been to forced-last ladies' day, and it's certainly an excuse to get dressed up, but there's a lot of mud consuming forced-last with a lot of fancy dresses and people by the end are in some state. But yeah, it was Bax Page, one of the- Oh, Bax Page, well, yeah, his trip was just allowed, so it could have been more, but yeah, 24-0, half-time, 36-5, going into the final few minutes. There haven't been many occasions like that, in Sonassi, where you can just really enjoy knowing or when has come in. And I just, David, I thought, well, afterwards said, the club was at a tradition of bringing through young talent. There are few more I'd like to see between now and the end of the season, which it's great. If you haven't got something to play for, then drip-feed these youngsters in and start building for next season, already it's never too early, I guess. No, why not? And I think, like I said,

8:14Carmen Lega-Jones says that is- Oh, 18. It's crazy, like I say, so the school kid really, so yeah, for him to begin experience and exposure, and yeah, why not try and blood as many players ready for next season? Yeah, and it is young, it's really, but I've also been looking back, it's sort of the age where Dan Bigel has come in as well, isn't it? Yeah, there are some players that are ready as well. Yes, yeah, I think the difference with these youngsters coming through now, they're not coming through, we're probably the experiences. With the James Hook, though. Well, yeah, and others. Yeah, it does make a difference, wasn't it? And it was a celebratory weekend, in the hook household. Big congratulations to Harrison, your son, who won, tell me what you want. They have the district cup finally yesterday, against, against Robanos, say, yeah, it's a good game, two good teams. The tips, sir? The tips wasn't there. I think he did a retraining with them in the week. Yeah, it was really brilliant. He was playing him from Bannerton. Yeah, he was actually in Bannerton coming back. And it was two good teams. It was great to have been Swansea Apples, they had five finals finished with, well, they were under 16's final, like I say, Robanos and excellent team are always there, they're about, yeah, the boys were happy.

9:16So you've done some work you were telling me, Lauren, about kind of, just my favourite topic in the end of season. I'm about three or four weeks early right now. You're looking at the playoff picture, and we'll go through the other teams. Do you have any, you said you've got any... I was sort of a throwaway comment as I was walking in, there's something that we might touch on. But the Osprey's on 29, Shaq's 29, Bannerton 28, so three teams there virtually are on the same point. So if they picked up zero match points from the next game, the max they'd be able to get to his 49 points and go in on previous seasons, it's been 49-50. You know, it could still, there could be a change in the norm, we could see, you know, a team currently in the top eight to have, having a slump too. But we knew that they had a throwaway fixture, and it was really frustrating from an Osprey's point of view. It was how many times they've scored three tries. The weekend, it was their third consecutive URC match. They've scored just three.

10:16They've done it in six at a 13 games this season. So when you look in at that over the course of a campaign, considering they've had a couple of draws as well, it's a difference in, you know, 10 points plus. Yeah, and the first trading thing for the Ospreys, when you look at the table, is sitting above them, the Lions and the Bulls, and we know the South African teams have a slightly gentler running than many of the Welsh teams. It's going to be tough to claw you way back from there. Yeah, and Connacht, a way they'll still have a good result, and they wish which hasn't helped. The only team to away, it's to win away from home in the whole round. Just doesn't have to worry. Yeah, let's do one week. Sorry, Glasgow one week, and now they've gone away again. I've got the win on the weekend. What did you make of the Ospreys? Again, there were so many chances, probably they left out there, and even though, I think Bennett and I had all the territory and possession in the first half, going in at halftime to a 14-5 up, and he thought you still felt like the Ospreys were, would it, would in the game, because when they got opportunities,

11:18they can score, and they did in the first half with Kiran Williams. And that was the case immediately in the second half. They scored through Kiran Williams again, and then obviously there's a couple of frustrating moments where, you know, at yellow card, and a disallowed try at the same time from Jack Walsh, was almost a bit of a momentum swinger, and Bennett or Bennett on were good, to be fair. Probably better than they have been for a lot of the season. You know, they're a couple of great individuals. Retarvey on the wing, he's just a monster, isn't he? If they give the ball to Retarvey, it's probably a game plan in itself. I don't know how you can't really stop him, I don't think. Yeah, but I think it's how we got the ball to him, a manga, a ten, was very good. Fick a tower, a twelve, was excellent, and they played a lot from deep as well, but, and yeah, it's just one of those things Ospreys didn't take their chances, and Bennett on dead. And like you say, a lot, they still could have come away with some points, but unfortunately they haven't. So it turns into a massive game, though, this weekend against Conor Dewey. Bennett and have had plenty of low scoring games this season,

12:20and then occasionally they have a game where everything clicks, and that was the case on the weekend. The backline actually only had one Italy qualified player in a doggo, so they've recruited really well. It's an interesting one, because I think now and again, you see those, you know, kind of foreign recruits stand up, and you think they've got their recruitment bang on, because they're not overly reliant on their Italian players. But then I think it's probably unlikely they make the playoffs the top eight anyway. So they probably are. I mean, if you consistently provide in 20 plus players to the Italy squad, I mean, there was seven involved in the weekend, but it's not, I don't know if it's something that you can sustain. Yeah, and they're going to be doing the wolves type thing, the Premier League right now, where they won't be the playoffs, but they'll just be a nightmare for everything that goes there. They're going to spoil everyone's party, aren't they? They're a tough team to be, especially when the grounds for them have been on the way that's good out there, at home, they're going to be tough. Right then, Cardiff, yeah, okay.

13:22You go to Pretoria, don't expect much, but I think Welsh teams, in particular, Cardiff have travelled to South Africa with the expectation of coming home with something. They came home with nothing. Yeah, and Milad scored early on, didn't he? But after that, it was all the balls, and I said they were stacked to spring box, particularly in the back line. I think Cardiff, for them, would probably be a little bit too loose, I think, from a handling point of view, and a kicking point of view. And when you've got a back three of, you know, a wrench, you've got moody in the back line, you give those guys space, and they'll take it all day, particularly away from home, it's tough out the team as well. So, yeah, it's a tough day of the office for Cardiff. I think they went into this block, final block of six matches, and based on previous year's hotels, which have just mentioned, they probably only needed two wins plus two bonus points from six games to get to the top eight. So, these two results may not change that. It's just when you're losing, and then there's a pressure factor, I think,

14:22when other teams start catching up, you don't, and I don't know, momentum swings, you're currently out of the top four, you've been in the top four for a big part of the season. It's, I guess, not let in that pressure get to you. I think that this is going to sound like a weird strange thing to say. I think I'd like to see the bulls win the URC this year, if only just to justify what we see week and week out. I think that the reputation of the bulls doesn't extend beyond the walls of the URC niche group. In the sense that, you know, on the day, they are the best, or argue on the best sides in the world, the club teams, but because they've not won anything yet, they stumble against glass. Well, they've already their coach because they'd lost a couple of finals in Jake White, but then kept all the assistant coaches. But there are teams like that, when they purge, they're like, no other side in, well, apart from maybe to lose or boredot. Yeah, but they're going to be pushing to get a home. I don't know. And they reach at the moment and they show up. I don't know if they'll get that. They could end up being a really tricky opponent

15:24for a top four side in the knockout. But yeah, I mean, it's coming back to that South Africa point, doesn't it, because the ball is the first seven games of the season. We're conceding an average of 30 points per game. Can you tell I work the world's game? And there we go. But you, I mean, when you play the South Africans, the South Africans, a lot of them start their season without their spring box in wet and windy conditions on the road. Yeah. And they end their season having not competed in the Six Nations with all their spring box at home in beautiful conditions. It's a pattern we get to this point. And we're suddenly looking at all the South African teams going, who's beating them? But the dragons gave the storm as a, you know, they gave them a scrap. They did. I think that's one pleasing thing from a dragon's point of view of the season. They're in the fight in pretty much every game. They're winning games, but they're not getting destroyed.

16:24Like they probably have been the last couple of seasons. You know, again, it's a tough place to go to Cape Town. And like I said, they were in the game. I know the scrum struggle a little bit. They got pushed off their own ball once to concede a try. But they looked pretty good, pretty dangerous at times. I think Rio Daya, he scored one, didn't he? And he nearly scored an amazing try. If not, he was in touch. I think I'm in touch in goal when he grounded the ball. But they're playing some good stuff. They're not getting, you know, well beaten every game. I actually didn't wake the balls game. Sorry. I just... We didn't wake the balls. But they've just been sitting there. That's a kind of niche knowledge you live. Live on. I was obviously across every game. As I was across the Munster Sharks game, which was an absurd... Sorry, yeah, Munster Sharks. And we got all confused today. It's been a long weekend. That joke from Ross Harris, which I enjoyed. And do you see that? No, because I was on a... The coverage, where Simon Zebo said, I think, what do they lose? 48 nils? 45 nils. 45 nils. And Simon Zebo said,

17:26Oh, well, I'm part of raisin. Simon Zebo said something on the lines of, well, I think, you know, if they'd made that tackle, if they'd caught that ball, it could have been a very different picture. And also, I was like, man, well, it could have been 45 set. Yeah, I don't... genuinely just kind of backing up. There's an African point. You know, second time months have been nailed in the league ever. The last time was 2009. That's not my start. That's respite, do you? So... Who's that? Who's that? The Sharks, who have just not been a top 8 team at all. And have been... You know, we've all been scratching our head, I think. But it doesn't bowl well for Cardiff, who are sitting there trying to get to, you know, they need to get two wins. They'll have to get those two victories in the Derby's one to spend. Well, I'm not going to fix those no Cardiff, so they've got the Sharks off of her way, which is going to be tough. Scarlet's away, Osprey's home, Glasgow away, and then finish with a storm as a storm. I think at home, you'd fancy them against anyone, wouldn't you?

18:27Yes. This season. Yes, yeah. Right, I'm going to park the rugby. Do you want to get your popcorn out? James, would you like that? Yeah, yeah. So you get headphones off, because this is... Right, keep your headphones on, because you're going to... I think so this time. You just listen in, you don't have to contribute. You can give a score at the end, because we're going into rugby... Into rugby, Norse territory? Noron? Erm... Oh, see, that's rugby. It's not Norse, it's actually quite... It's quite pertinent, important, very... It's a level to confidence. Yeah, no, it is. And I think it is because we are currently at a time where a lot of people are... a lot of non-Rugby Norse. They're just simply worried about their jobs. Exactly. So, that voice, who needs to get a little bit closer to the microphone, is our first guest, and it's Rob Regan, from a chief operating officer for the principal team. Now, when the driving forces behind a proposal, which ultimately wants to keep four teams going and invest in the future of our rugby,

19:31erm, we've read a lot from you, Rob. We've seen a lot from you, especially on LinkedIn, and kind of trying to drum up support for this idea that you have. Thanks for coming in, by the way. Thanks for having me. Right, erm, what do you want to do, Rob? What I want to do, great question. So, I think at the, you know, in its simplest description, I want to make sure Welsh Rugby has a really sustainable future. And at the moment, I'm not convinced that we've been presented with a plan that achieves a long-term sustainable future for Welsh Rugby. So, my interest is to try and create something this more structured and sustainable than we've seen to date. Not been, not been, do you not believe that the plan presented is not sustainable? Do you not believe the plan has enough detail in it? I think there's two key points. I don't think anything we've seen to date is being substantiated with any evidence. There's lots of assertion, but we can't afford this or this needs to happen.

20:32But we've seen no evidence, we've seen no insights, we've seen no data, and there seems to be a complete reluctance to present anything that could, you know, back up the plan. So, that's the first point, I think. And then the second point, having spent the last five or six weeks speaking to anybody that are listening, and people have been super generous with their time. But the more I hear, the more I see the more people I talk to, I think there's a significant question given a number of things that are happening, whether the plan that is being described to us is affordable or not. And I believe there's a significant gap in the financials. So, you believe that Wales can afford for professional rugby teams that are competitive and successful? I think we've got choices to make on the way we invest in the game. And at the moment, there's nothing to suggest that spending the numbers, 28 million, 5 million, the numbers have been quoted. There's nothing to suggest that that will make us more sustainable. Yet, it does reduce the number of regions. So, the plan we've pulled together tries to do a number of things.

21:35It looks first and foremost at the impact potentially on the community game. We've spent an awful long time talking about the number of regions. It's two, it's three, it's four, we've spent very little time talking about what the impact of losing a region would do to community clubs and pathways particularly. So, I think if we are sensible and we invest wisely, I do think we can achieve both. And why do I think that's important? I think we do need to protect pathways. I think we need to, we just talked. It was interesting, James, you talked about players not getting enough exposure, Lauren, you talked about, you know, the scholars playing some youngsters before the end of the season. Are players not getting anywhere near as much exposure at senior rugby versus some of the players in France, for example? So, I think by losing a region, there's been no conversation about what that does to future player minutes for getting youngsters into the game. France again. A France unique, France have got two 14 team leagues. We don't have those playing opportunities. A lot of this will come back to number crunching.

22:35Yes. So, I think in your first proposal, keep four teams, have them on six million, which firstly, it meant 4.6 million on players. Don't build the national campus yet, phase the funding of the women's game. You tell me, is that 4.6 million on players gone out? But if so, how do you make those savings? Yes, so we've created a number of options and we start with fixing a playing budget. It's really, really difficult to get real deep insight into what the true spend is at each of the other URC sides. So, you know, lense, depending on which numbers you look at are in the, you know, 10, 12, maybe even 15 million of investment. So, does a million here or there in Wales make a difference compared to lense? Probably not. You just talked about some of the South African sides. And, you know, some of the South African budgets are very, very similar. They've got a player budget cap. It's very difficult to see what's going on beyond the headline salaries. You've got central contracts.

23:36So, my view is to be more competitive, I think next year the playing budget is at around 5.5 million in Wales, if you're on PRA 25, I think you can be competitive. I think the South African sides are showing you can be competitive on those kinds of numbers. So, if you recognize that ultimately in Wales we're going to need to be more imaginative with the way we spend our money, we're not going to be able to compete with some of the very top sides in the URC. And, certainly, when you compare it to the premiership where, you know, the wage bills are absolutely staggering. I think if we set a number at around 6, I am then confident that you can look at investing in those other facets of the game like pathways in a more, you know, a more cost-effective way than the current proposal of which we've seen no detail, by the way. I guess in some ways that's the point. If you have four teams on smaller budgets, it's unlikely all four are going to have a good season in any given year. Now, I take your point that not huge amount, you know, again,

24:38rates of the region, the WIU, aren't saying we're going to put all that money into the others. What they're saying is we're going to put a huge amount of it into the pathways. Yeah, and again, who would disagree? A lot of the challenge I've had from people that have engaged with is, you know, we do want another X years of mediocrity where you're just kind of broadly competing. You guys might know better than me, but in the URC, I don't think there's any particular meritocracy on rewards. So, you know, you get the same funding, whether you finish top or bottom other than, of course, if you're playing home games in playoffs, that there could be, you know, more income from the clubs. But if only the amount you spend on players was the driver of success, or if you only got success through spending money, well, England will have won the World Cup every year, and would have done a lot better than they just did in the six nations, and Lenster would win every year, you know. So, when Glasgow have been successful, they haven't been one of the top paying old, the top paying side. So, I think just to assume the spending more money will lead to more success, I think it is pretty risky, but also to assume the shift in

25:422030, whatever the number is, million into pathways, without being really clear on what the current issues are, which I don't believe again, that the cases be made for Y-30 or 20 or 28 million is the right number. So, do you plan on publishing a fully-costed detailed plan of action that where you can take Welsh rugby? Because a lot of these are soon savings, aren't they? Yeah, so two questions. I think firstly, I don't believe the WRU have presented a costed plan. No, but if you want to criticize them for not offering a costed plan, the best you can do is offer one. So, we're trying to present based on public information, because of course, what we don't have is the actual numbers inside the union. But what if you find out that the action numbers are good? We've published a set of numbers, we've published on our website, YSA.Wales, on our website, we've basically published a financial model that people can go in and play around with themselves,

26:45and what we've done is listed every assumption that we've made on our plan. So, I can't with any high degree of certainty, better than mine, we've been at this four or five weeks, we haven't been at the two or three years, we're a handful of people who are volunteers, we haven't spent a penny of consulting money, we think we've got something materially more robust in terms of the assumptions we're making, the model in we're doing and the numbers we're using, we could very quickly turn around an assessment of the numbers if they were shared. So, you know, if the WRU want to open their books and share that, you know, maybe the holes are bigger than we think, maybe the numbers are, you know, compelling, if so, why have they not, you know, chosen to publish any of the evidence? I think, I guess, if you're an Osprey's fan, listen into this, I'll seeing that somebody has an alternative plan, it's probably quite important to emphasise it isn't yet an alternative plan as such in terms of how do we save our region, it's not as if we've suddenly a new investor, right, this will put money into the club, it's more a let's press pause and see if we can.

27:50I think that's entirely fair, yeah, I think there's a, you know, let's pause, why do we need to pause? Because I don't think we've been presented with any evidence yet, so I think that's important. What we have looked at is a number of ways we could potentially bring new money into the game, but again, in four weeks, you know, one of the things we've focused on a lot is the community game, how can we attract more, you know, third sector investment into the community game? How do we secure the future of community rugby and pathways? You know, we've looked at things like charitable trust structures, which are actually already a feature, you know, rugby apprenticeships, PSBs, how can we invest and protect community rugby and pathways? I think that is a bit different to anything we've seen so far, but at the very top of the game, we're working on the basis that you've got 106 million of revenue coming into the WRU, and our primary hypothesis is you spend that more effectively, you know, we can't spend our way to success in Wales, like some of the bigger nations, we're not France, you know, we're not England, so therefore I think it's entirely legitimate to say less pause, and let's look at ways we can invest that money more successfully.

28:52What do you mean by pause? Pause what? Pause the contraction, so pause the reduction of a region until there's a compelling set of evidence that suggests that all of those downside impacts have been considered. And if the Welsh Rebunion present all the detailed evidence for you, and- It's with evidence, it's money, isn't it? Because we spoke to Dave Radden, James and I, a couple of weeks ago, and he said that Welsh Rebunion believe you me is operating in a very lean manner. Compared to who? Well, compared to how they're used to, I imagine, because I think a lot of where we've- the point we've arrived at now is actually down to years of neglect. Yeah, so again, right, you don't want to get into the guts and the detail, but when you look at how much, for example, might be spent on travel and entertainment compared to the amount of money that ends up in the community game. Dylan Jones Evans has recently done a report for free suggesting

29:52three or four p in the pound ends up actually in community clubs. And when you look at the breakdown between SRC and the lower clubs, how much is spent at the WRU on the away trips, the president's lounge, the free tickets and give away- And again, I'm somebody that's been part of that, right? So people could throw rocks at me. And all I'm suggesting is less have some transparency. Okay, let's, let's, let's presume you pause, you get transparency, and the evidence is compelling to go to three or two. Would you back that? Well, I'm trying to get at it. Yes, are you? Yes, yes, it's not an emotional argument to say we must stick with four. No, no, not remotely. My interest is all of the conversation rightly has been around money. There's been very little if any conversation around the impact on pathways and playing opportunities. So, you know, as Lauren just said, you've got a pro D2 in the top 14 in France, where you've got a lot of, a lot of minutes reducing a region, reducing your opportunity to play at the highest level in Wales by 25%.

30:53Off the top of my top, my head, the WRU plan said he would reduce the professional plays from 165 to 150. And they would also reduce the amount of non-wrench qualified plays, so they would argue that this is what the WRU plays is, that there's still as many rugby players in Wales playing professional rugby with their plan of reducing to three. But again, I'm not absolutely convinced that reducing the total number of non-wrench qualified players is the right thing. I've spoken to a lot of players who talk really passionately about playing with people and lifting standards and raising standards. I also think there's a risk that we assume we need to keep every single one of our best players in Wales. You know, if you apply data football, imagine saying, Gareth Baill could never go and play anywhere other than Cardiff City or Swansea or Narekson. So I just think there are so many interrelated factors. We do need to be really, really clear on what it means for, you know, the SLC is described as a proving ground and a route to regional rugby. We know it's going to take a while to get the SLC to the kind of standard.

31:58You know, if you get to three clubs, I still actually believe the union's plan would be to want to get to, is my personal view from what I've heard and listen to people. It only takes a couple of injuries there and all of a sudden you're going to take a boy from, you know, the SLC, sorry, from the SLC to be out playing in Cape Town or Durban. You know, I think there's those of the risks I don't think we've had much debate on. Yeah, I think everyone, the one thing we all agree on is the pathways need to improve, but I think you're right. It's just that that detail or meet on the bones that we haven't got at the moment, isn't it? And I think, yeah, the SLC is that gap bridged enough at the moment, probably not. So, you know, they talk about the Wales A coming back. He's just, I know they've mentioned development centres and regional training centres, but it's not any sort of clear plan. And now we spoke a bit long. We spoke today of red and my Ellis boys 16, he's that age now where you're going to college and a lot of good rugby players that age from Wales, I think, they're uncertain. So if it's uncertain in Wales, they want to look over the bridge and ask about it. Trust is a big element. People do not trust. A lot of people

33:02don't trust the Welsh opinion. Just one thing maybe we should have asked you earlier, Rob, is your background and your credibility? If there are people listening to this thinking, right, why should I buy into this month's opinion? Why should I buy into the captain of Romney thirds and Romney vets is view on Wales rugby? So, I think that's entirely legitimate. Why is my opinion any more valid than any others? The first thing to say is there's 20, 30, 40, 50 people that I've spoken to and I'm representing their views. These are not just personal views. Glenn, Melford, Callgate, I think you've seen some of these were absolutely fantastic. So, who is he? He's a chap who I met just through, you know, the original kind of posts on the coalition of the wheeling. He's a tech entrepreneur startup guy. He's helping bring all this data together. He's well. She's very passionately well. She's a player from, you know, from his youth days. And there's a whole load of people, whether it be I've spoken and again, some are much more comfortable than others. I've spoken to Mike Reddock. I've spoken to Kingsley Jones. I've spoken to coaches. I've spoken to players. I've spoken to CEOs of regions.

34:06And what's completely consistent is that the point you both just made, which is complete lack of trust, complete lack of transparency. And my view is, I think, Welsh rugby deserves a bit more certainty. And the points are on losing players, right? I don't know these chaps, you do. But would Jack have gone to Gloucester or, despite what I said just now, would he have gone to Gloucester if he'd had more certainty? Would your son prefer to stay in Wales if there was a bit more certainty around the Osprey's region? And I've spoken, you look at people like Jack Woods, Greg Woods is saying, the number of players that are over, either in Clifton or Bath or Melfield. And again, great. But why can't we replicate some of that? I've spoken to Richie Reese. Richie's now in Habitatians. You've got Shane down West. We've got Cardiff Met. We've got Swansea Uni. Why are we not doing more to join that up? We've got some fantastic capabilities. I think the kids want to stay in Wales, and they're almost being forced a little bit over the bridge. And they write about Jack

35:07and Dale, our current Welsh captains. I suppose, would we see the current Irish captain, the current English captain leaving, you know? No, we wouldn't, but they're leaving at the minute because of the uncertainty and the uncertainty. The uncertainty is here because, well, you tell me, do you agree, there's a mandate for change? I think, I don't believe it is a mandate for change. I don't think the consultation was a consultation because the contraction strategy was pretty much signed off before the consultation happened. Glenn's done some fantastic work. He's scraped 300,000 comments off-reddit. I'm sorry, off-reddit, frotate slip. And there's nothing that corroborates the view that there's a mandate to reduce regions. Abby lent into that consultation, Dave, red in lending to that consultation. I don't believe there is a mandate for contraction. I believe there is a mandate for change. I think the performance of the national teams, the fact we know we've seen the pro clubs won't be haven't been competitive for a number of years.

36:09The fact that, you know, the PRA system brings with it every couple of years long drawn out talks between teams and the union, the fact that the pro teams need so much investor money, which isn't guaranteed. I think there was a clear consensus that the status quo wasn't working. Completely agree. I said there's not a mandate for contraction. There is a mandate for change. I think we would all agree that the current status quo is not sustainable and we're not advocating maintaining the four regions in the current status quo. How do you force your way into this equation and you and your team? Well, firstly, we've had some really positive engagement from the Welsh Rugby Union. I met Abby recently. She talked about herself at the recent district event that she went to with Alison Thorn. Glenn has spoken directly to Richard Collier Keywood already, so I can't fault them for wanting to engage. Then I'm going into the

37:11union on Wednesday to talk to a couple of Abby's team as well about some of these different themes. Lauren, you mentioned this a few minutes ago, right there. When we talk about regions or WRU savings, these are real people with real jobs and mortgages to pay in kids and families, right? So I don't, when I talk about significant savings to come from other areas, you're just moving around where those impacts are. But I do think I'm going to try to answer your question directly, I do think I don't want to be seen as the noisy neighbour. I genuinely want to try and represent voices that bring more contribution to the table. I don't think this is easy for the WRU. Do you want to see a change in the exec? Yes. And without which post? Particularly, I think at the board at the moment, I think the board started with Richard and the EGM, not personal, but as the chair, you're ultimately accountable for the culture of the organisation. And what's completely consistent across all the conversations I've had is an unwillingness to listen and to be heard, whether that's from ex-players, whether it's from administrators. So I think there's a reluctance or an unwillingness

38:14to listen to, you know, particularly a lot of the voices from within Wales. And therefore, I think, you know, you look at the Scarlett's court case, you look at the Ospreys court case, you're going to, sorry, there's Swansea Council, court case, you could have talked to Rob in a second, you look at the CMA risks, you look at the sentiment from, you know, whether it's the Ospreys region, I think there's been a complete breakdown of trust over the last 18 months, probably since the, you know, the rescue of Cardiff, which, if handled differently, might not have led to such uncertainty. And therefore, you know, people like Jack and Dowie and others go in over the bridge. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree that there's been a big Walsh Rugby Union comms issue over the last few months, even year, I think, communication, you come back to trust. I guess there are two sort of separate things going on in the trust and that the comms and the, maybe avoid in some of these really kind of hefty financial legal issues, well, more than legal issues,

39:19court cases, is potentially a different reason to get read than you don't like the plan. Because like Rob said, if we are, if we're all presented with a date in the evidence and contracting is the most viable option, then another chairwoman or man could come in and make the same decision. So I think the, I guess you have to be very clear in terms of why you're getting rid of the chair and we know that that's why the GM will be, that's why the GM has been called on April 13th, is to decide the future of the chair, but the why are you potentially inflicting a vote of no confidence? Thanks, quite important. I think you, you know, and we've talked a lot about the risk of doing that as well and the risk of hiatus and I use the word pause, you know, for me, pause could be weeks, right, to select a new chair, it takes a little bit longer, but for me, the why is this point around listening and being heard and culture and I think there has been a distinct lack of engagement with most of the stakeholder groups, you know, let's just

40:25fast forward, right? Okay, we go to three regions, at least one of the potential West license holders is going to have been in court with the WIU for the last X period, right? So you wake up on Monday morning, the Scarlett's court case is finished, the Swansea Council when it's finished, you go to work on Monday, when is all loses, right? We're all sat around the same table working on three. So for me, we haven't discussed it and it's a whole different debate, but the entire structure of these separately limited entity companies and the union, this, this structure is structurally broken, you know, you need people to have a line of economic interests and at the moment I don't think the game of Wales is structured in that way. What's your own personal ambition in this? To get through this without having my reputation completely smashed and battered, nothing else I I'm just somebody with a lot of time on their hands at the moment I finished full-time work in December and my wife wanted me out of the house a bit more so she's definitely got that over the last five or six weeks. You've held CEO positions, would you fancy yourself for WIU Chief

41:28exact? No, I was in the process, I think when I've you know I was actually in the process in 2020 during Covid and I was initially really surprised that I was asked to participate in the process and I hadn't worked at principality then so it was even more interesting because I was working outside of Wales and I probably dodged a bullet by not getting the job when it was given to Steve I think the danger now is a load of people have asked me that question Lauren but it would make me a complete hypocrite. I've seen brilliant brilliant people go into the WIU and get broken and not not have impact I think right now one of the key threads of our plan is to try and create something independent to act more as a think tank and provide oversight of the WIU strategy and the WIU's plans. I think I've actually said to Abby I'd work for a full-time for free at the moment she thinks that's a useful thing I don't I think the minute I get a single ticket or a tie or a blazer or invited to a to a meal I think my credibility is blown and at the moment to answer Gareth's question from earlier how do you force your way in you force your way in by keeping

42:31really high standards keeping your integrity high maintaining your independence and trying to make sure I keep saying I'm trying to be Switzerland and not not get too drawn into you know specific issues. I guess for them it would make sense if you meet an Abertini if you meet in Colleague would read and they show you their evidence wouldn't it? That's what we would love yeah because absolutely if nothing else we could help bridge the credibility gap. Right should we bring in a new Rob into the equation? I'm hopeful the Rob Stewart leader of Swansea Council is on the line can you hear us Rob? The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people so when you want to reach the right professionals use LinkedIn ads LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals including 130 million decision makers and that's where it stands apart from other advice you can target your buyers by job title industry company role, seniority skills company revenue so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience it's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks

43:35spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast that's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast terms and conditions apply wise the app for international people using money around the globe when it comes to sending money abroad many providers claim to offer free fees and competitive rates but don't be fooled this can be code for inflated exchange rates with the wise account you can send spend and receive money in over 40 currencies without ever having to worry about hidden fees sending pounds across the pond most transfers arrive in 20 seconds or less spending rails in Rio the wise travel card gives you the mid market rate on every purchase no costly markups on your bill getting paid in dollars for your side gig avoid hidden fees and get the real exchange rate every time with 24-7 access to live support your international transactions with wise are quick transparent and safe plus wise runs over seven million daily checks to catch and prevent fraud 15 million people already trust wise

44:39to manage their money internationally be smart get wise download the wise app today or visit wise.com. TCCC Supply I can you find the I can you meet guys yes welcome to the conversation Rob's been one of the more vocal critics of W.I.U.s plan describing them in a quote as cultural vandalism taking the step of pursuing legal action in an attempt to protect the future of the Ospreys welcome to the show Rob and you've been pretty gun hole I would say in particular when it comes to this situation why well it's it's protecting the future of rugby in Swansea and in the region I mean like this twice is too big a battle for us to not win so we've had to be unho but we've always looked from the position of doing this in the interests of the broader of the community in Swansea

45:41and South West Wales because I think it's 15 million pounds a year impact our economy to 20,000 people play rugby in our region you know a 77 community clubs all at risk if this plan is pushed through by the W.I.U. just to be clear are you saying the decision on the Ospreys as effectively already been made behind closed doors well I think as the minutes we were forced to share and we were we were in a bizarre position we we wanted to share them publicly we're asked not to by the W.I.U. and then when the FOI or the Freedom Information Request came in you know it completely made them public so we've been very clear from the start yes we believed that a decision had already been made by the W.I.U. that was the conversation that we had at the Guildhall year in Swansea and you know that's why we couldn't remain silent and initiated the

46:43actions straightly straight afterwards. Can you provide any more details on those minutes you talk about it and what your conversations have been with Ospreys and Why Levin in particular which is you know key kind of component to this we haven't really discussed this far when it comes to their plans for the Ospreys if they were to buy Cardiff. Yeah so the key thing within the minutes and remember Abbotini herself reviewed those minutes and sent us an annotated copy back which essentially became per minutes which said these are the things that we can offer you on the basis that professional men rugby won't be being played in Swansea so you know that shocked us and we immediately said look we're not up for a discussion around substitution we're up for a discussion around what additional things you could bring to Swansea in addition to the Ospreys continuing as a

47:44regional professional rugby site so so that was the bit in the minutes that is really crucial here because of course having reviewed the minutes and said that and agreed that that was accurate to what happened in the meeting many of the subsequent points that have been made by W.I.U. representatives and by Abby herself in conversations are completely nods with that so they were either not telling the truth in the meeting with us or they'd not been telling the truth to the public since. I just want to I just want to assist the listeners here because there are some who have been clearly following us through the Six Nations we've gone quite deep quite quickly I just want to explain what is going on here Swansea Council is taking legal action against the Ospreys Union and Y 11 the owner of the Ospreys proposed takeover a cardiff and they claim in it would effectively lead to the Ospreys losing this place as a professional side after next season the argument being that it's flawed and the competitive and cause significant economic and

48:45sporting damage to Swansea region we're now discussing talking about a meeting that took place between Swansea Council the Ospreys and Ospreys Union and the dispute is around the publication of the minutes of this particular discussion sorry I've just explained that but I think we just need to be more settled in that sorry I cut across you quick there Rob. No other fine I mean look we were approached by Lance Bradley the Ospreys if a meeting could take place at the Guild Hall we were obviously keen to have a discussion about what the W.I.U. could bring in terms of clarity but when that meeting took place we were quite shocked with what was being said in that meeting and as you say a set of minutes from that meeting were disputed but the key thing people need to remember is we sent those to Abby and to Lance to review Lance chose not to comment on them Abby commented rewrote them and then the the version that's now been

49:45released are essentially minutes she's reviewed and provided back to us as her version of what she believed happened at the in the meeting so we're quite confident that everything we've said publicly and everything we've told people is reflected in in what has now been released so we feel quite vindicated by that and in response to your question that that has redoubled our efforts because we said at the meeting we would take every opportunity to stop the W.I.U. implementing a plan we believed wasn't in the interests of Welsh rugby as a whole and certainly not in the interests of the ospreys so you know that has resulted then in us taking legal action in referring W.I.U. to the competition and market authority and you know us working in any way we can to support efforts to bring about a different way forward because we believe when you go through the numbers of the finances of W.I.U. when you look at all of the other opportunities that exist the three plan whether it's the three plan or the two plan versions from the W.I.U. are not the

50:51only way forward and we think a four region model can be sustained for the good of Welsh rugby. I think I should read you the Welsh Rugby Union statement which they published previously W.I.U. notes that Swansea Council has chosen to publish its minutes of a meeting with Abitani W.I.U. Chief Executive Lance Bradley Chief Executive of the Ospreys on 21st of January 2026 our position has been clear and consistent throughout this was a confidential meeting it was not formally minted as Swansea Council themselves knowledge the notes are not an accurate reflection of what was said and Abitani has stated this throughout indeed her own comments on the notes now published without her consent make clear that she did not say what is purported her help me over that what is purported lame to have been said purported purported there's a new word for you every day is a learning day have W.I.U. has behaved professionally and kirtiously throughout

51:52and has nothing further to add is W.I.U.L.M. crew shelter that just to go back to my previous question do you know what W.I.L.M.s plans over the Ospreys if they buy Cardiff well we've been reassured several times that the plan has always been to retain both sides in their ownership and you know representatives of the Ospreys and others have said to us that they've got permission for W.I.L.M. to own two sides in the U.R.C and they've got permission from the league from from World Rugby so if that is the case then that is a potential way forward our concern remains is that a long term commitment and if Y-11 came forward and were able to successfully purchase Cardiff then would they then continue long term to support both sides and we've never had the assurance from W.I.U. or anybody else that even if we got to a position where Y-11 were able to own two sides they want to be a commitment that extended past the end of the U.R.C

52:59contract and if they don't want to own the Ospreys anymore are there any other parties who would that you're aware of so yeah I mean look the position for us is we will keep every option open and as you can imagine we're working with a number of parties to look at a number of people who potentially could be interested in investing in the Ospreys however I come back to the main point you which is that isn't on the table at the moment because the because Y-11 own the Ospreys and just to share with you we we are proposing to make an announcement this Wednesday around further moves on St Helens and further moves together with the Ospreys that might secure that future a little bit further while we wait for the outcome of the legal action with so how much money has how much public money has already been spent on St Helens right nothing

53:59on St Helens at the present time nothing on consultation nothing on planning nothing so not a single penny of public money has been spent on any planning going into St Helens yeah let me let me correct a little bit of that so if you're asking have we spent time in making sure that we keep the option of St Helens open then yes of course we've invested officer time we've obviously had to relocate the cricket from St Helens to scatty lane and the associated costs of all of that are over a million pounds so and and that investment was made on the basis of the business plan provided to us by the Ospreys from Y-11 okay so I just want to pick up on this right two or three years ago we were emailing you in the Swansea Council asking about the future plans for St Helens because we were aware the future of Welsh rugby was not certain where was the due diligence done from Swansea Council to be able to assure them assure public that there would be an existence of a

55:02rugby team in order to provide the money I got also feel that you know Swansea Council were accountable for looking at the Ospreys future diligently yeah we did do you go remember that the plan has changed several times since then um so you know what what do diligence plan are we talking about here well it's common sense common sense common sense in knowing what we knew that there was no clear certainty about the future of four regions of Welsh rugby we've known this for two or three years certainty about any of the teams in the rugby on that basis agreed it so but you've committed money committed public money based on you you can't you can't misrepresent the timeline here right so you have to go back to last summer right and you have to be in the position prior to the WIU announcing the change in approach in December this last year yes so remember we were working with the Ospreys on a plan for them to move back from the Swansea.com stadium

56:04to St Helens yeah they weren't able to do that in the previous season so chose to go to Bridgend for a period yeah um but we were then working as part of the broader Swansea based sports park about what elements could be incorporated in that broader sports park arrangement now part of that was around what would you need to do to St Helens in order to allow the redevelopment of the ground to take place and it became clear that you couldn't have rugby and football being played in a redeveloped ground it wouldn't work it it wouldn't fit so prior to the WIU's most recent decisions we were working on a business plan submitted by the Ospreys on Y 11 which was a robust business plan which was that reviewed fully in terms of its financial viability and that was based on what would happen if at the time as was being proposed the WIU issued a new professional

57:11rugby agreement known as PRA 2 and that of course was based on four licenses not three okay so that was all in trail prior to the WIU changing its approach and of course the WIU are the ones who changed approach several times on this they went on a process of going to two teams and now they've relented to go on a process of awarding three licenses three teams so our position has been consistent WIU are the ones who changed their position which is why as part of the legal action we may seek to recover some of the invested costs as a result of this because it was made on the basis of the business plan provided at the time I want to go back to made 2025 it's an important crucial date because it was the month the Ospreys didn't sign that new PRA rather that you talked about and what was the exact communication between the Ospreys and the council about not signing

58:13why they didn't sign because you would have known the implications of the Ospreys not signing meant that they might not have an agreement with the Welsh Ab union post 2027. Yeah so you go remember there are several iterations around that time now my understanding is that the four teams were not ready to sign at that stage and negotiations between the clubs and the rugby union were ongoing and then Cardiff and Dragons went ahead and signed I believe leaving the other two having not signed and of course subsequent to that the WIU then changed the whole situation by removing the deal from the table so but you knew that was an option you know they could initiate the break. No no no no no again I think you're getting the timeline out of order because this spans the time at which we were looking at the redevelopment of St Helings and of course you cannot regenerate a stadium in a matter of weeks you have to start

59:19that journey prior to that so we had had negotiations way before then with cricket and with rugby about what would be required and how that would happen I mean they go back as far as having discussions with Del Morgan about whether or not first class cricket could be returned to St Helings because of course we were evaluating whether cricket could be an option whether rugby could be an option whether balls could be played there so again yeah yeah I'm not I'm not to speak in the time and I'm just wondering what was said really between the Ospreys and the council at the time the PRA wasn't signed because it that resulted in the Welsh Rebellion initiating the two-year break clause so that part was always on the table if they didn't meet the deadline. Yeah but the both because remember we had a meeting direct with the WIU as well around that time so again we had tried to ensure that the WIU knew of the proposals from the council to be

1:00:25part of an investment in St Helings and to give further reassurance on top of what the Ospreys may have given directly to the WIU about the options for redeveloping St Helings as part of a new PRA agreement and of course it is a bit tricky in an egg because we could not release the investment to the Ospreys until the PRA 2 was in place but we had to take those if you like enabling steps of starting the relocation of cricket well in advance of any decision being made by the WIU on the final version of the PRA 2 and we had to do that because cricket we get to take a long time to get ready and that move had to be done in advance of obviously allowing the Ospreys should a PRA 2 be in place access to the ground to do their redevelopment of St Helings itself. Just before we wrap this up you use the phrase cultural vandalism do you stand by that comment?

1:01:28Yeah absolutely the point here is if you look at any of the rugby measures then if you wanted to have a successful nation in Wales you can't in my opinion have that without having the most successful region in that mix so if you want to go down a different route of looking at data around population around you know where your businesses are based and all that which are not based on who is providing the players through your current systems, international teams into your most into your success factors that you will need to be successful rugby nation then it is a degree of cultural vandalism to ignore all that because what you're setting aside is the region that's been in my opinion the true region of Wales because of course it was the one that merged to create a brand new region so you know as I put to Abby when we were

1:02:29sitting in the office here you know if you wanted to get to three for instance you could have taken the opportunity to acknowledge that the Cardiff capital the Cardiff side has failed I didn't suggest to her that she do that but I was just posing as a question because if the WIU were clear that they wanted to get the three sides then there was a sensible and easy way to do that I was always and will continue to argue that four is the best solution for Wales that we need that broader base of players drawing from the most successful region in Wales as part of the four if we want to have a successful national side just finally Rob the Osprey's are currently losing two million plus per year have been consistently over the last couple of years um do you have a reason to believe that could change yeah that that figure is based on the fact that they're in Bridgend currently and that they've seen their gate to reduce that they're not able to exploit it was it was a similar it was a similar

1:03:35figure in 2223 so it's not just been last year but no no but it has it has got worse since they moved to Bridgend and again I think you've got to be fair here to all of the regions can you give me a region that's making money at the moment no professional rugby isn't making money I'm just wondering why identify the Ospreys because I want to know was it in the plan pitch for St Helens that they would be making a profit when they moved that yes so again absolutely the case that if you take if you take control of a redeveloped St Helens then that gets them over a period of a business plan to a period of profit profitability and break even but I think you know I've got to set that and I've got to stand up for my region here I've got to set that against Cardiff which are currently in administration and failed and therefore you know it needs to be in the mix and that the fact that all regions in Wales were losing money yeah it was more not you

1:04:35know there there was an opportunity there to make money at St Helens was was my point Rob just with it with it comes to absolutely sorry Rob not with the council legal proceedings going on obviously the Scarlet's legal proceedings EGM coming up but how confident are you that from an Ospreys point of view we can almost change the course of action the WIU were currently going down and and keep rugby in the Ospreys region so look in terms of the numbers for the EGM what's feeding back to me is it it looks relatively positive and again you know I I'm not as familiar with the structures within each of the clusters within Wales to know exactly how that will play out but I think you know there's a there's a very strong chance that the motion that's been put will be successful I think my personal view on that is the WIU whatever the outcome of the EGM have to change course you know to see as a rugby fan to see a six nations stadium a quarter empty

1:05:41is unheard of now if anybody in the WIU was to look at that and think we we've convinced people of what we're doing is the right thing you know that that was the key message for them in that game you're not doing the right thing you've lost the confidence of of a large majority of the rugby playing sorry rugby supporting public in Wales and I think you know they've they've they've tried cheap tickets to try and fill the stadium that cannot paper over the cracks that they go in in a direction that most people in Wales do not support so whatever happens in the EGM they've got to change course and if they continue down that route I think at some point they will inevitably come to a very sticky impasse and I couldn't see them continuing long term Rob Stewart thank you very much for your company cheers folks thank you Rob thank you Rob any thoughts on what we've just spoken about over the past half hour James it's just so much to one cover and I think there's so much going on

1:06:45in the background I think you touched on obviously the the council proceedings the scarlets legal proceedings the EGM is coming up I just feel there's a lot more war that'll go under the bridge now but from my point of view it was great to see as from losbars region the council fighting for the ospreys and trying to keep regional rugby and Swansea because you know I still believe it we need to keep a region and keep the ospreys in Swansea we also may need investors Rob depending on why elevens plans that I'm just wondering from your perspective how investible is rugby I mean if you're somebody now looking to put money in a rugby team I'm guessing Wales wouldn't be the first place you're looking well globally rugby is is not really an investible product you know if you look back in in recent history it's more of a hobby than none of the clubs in the Premier are making money you know outside of France there's probably not a great deal of money in the game still hugely dependent on benefactors so you know that said for anybody to want to invest in Wales you need certainty and the degree of uncertainty we've

1:07:50had for the last seven or eight years is you know significantly reducing the value of Welsh rugby therefore why would people invest you know my plea is for clarity and certainty very quickly and that I do believe we would attract more investment into the gaming Wales. What did you make of this Sir James Dyson take him up 50% of Bath Rugby? Yeah it's interesting it looked bar to beautiful rugby city and you know it's a fantastic place to go go more to rugby I think the the ring fencing of the Prem probably made the Prem more investible but as I said not a single team in the Premiership is making money and all teams are laden with debt so I'm not sure if that's an investment that I'll pull a return or if it's a hobby for someone that's going to take that investor to sort of take that gamble to create that certainty. Do you think that could happen? I think so yeah I think if you look at what they're doing in Bath I believe they've got planning for a new stand and the like so you know increasing the capacity of the wreck and then you know all

1:08:56that kind of investment that can grow the game but yeah we've not seen any returns on any rugby investment today and it might be quite a simplistic question but why does rugby not work as a business? Is it large squads? Is it the fact you've got a lot of players sitting injured? It's because we paid people like cookie too much over the years. It's not done that. Any other business you wouldn't pay your staff more than you can afford. You need the players off you need the squad the big squads yeah you know if you think the injuries in rugby particularly right it's it's a really short and unpredictable career and squad death it is really really important I think but if you if you look I believe rugby has been as paid unsustainable salaries for a long time so there does need to be some realization that you know if if your salaries are higher than your revenues which again three to at least a couple of the clubs in the Premier they're sure their salaries are higher than than revenues that's not a sustainable model in any business. Yeah and if you're one of the best players in in wheels for example if you're an officer after example you're going to

1:09:58compare your wages to the best tens in England and Ireland and if you can't match that then they're going to leave so you've got to match it isn't it? Well I don't think so James right I said as you wouldn't do that in any other business right so if that's what's happening that's what I'm saying but if you're the best CEO in in a Welsh bank say you're the best building society you're never going to compete with Goldman Sachs but does that mean the best CEO in Wales should never leave Wales I think that's the really difficult conversation and the balance to be struck so if Jack or Dowie or you know others go noon go to French clubs or English clubs and can earn considerably more they'll better themselves they'll still play for Wales and hopefully they'll come back but I don't think you would apply that keep the best in a business or in another sport at all costs for both the same so I think that's the challenge yeah but if you're not paying them they're going to leave anyway they're not paying them what they worth yet but I don't always see that as a bad thing right okay I've had the producer Alex in my year for the past five minutes

1:10:58in rapper up rapper up warm up Lauren we've got 40 minutes left to make the canteen before yes warm up like Monday salad bar you know that yeah Monday warm up I have Sean Hawley who I'm sure have his opinion on the current situation Alice Jenkins and Jonathan Davis right Rob thank you very much thank you James thank you very much I want to end on a bit of rugby and I think you noted Retarvey earlier in the conversation there's a few nuggets of information about Retarvey the past few weeks a week before this man 120 minutes of rugby against the dragon recently he's made 350 meters three tries seven line breaks and between 20 defenders in a half in one and a half of one match and a half of rugby and the point I wanted to end on for all of you feeling a bit stiff at home and just struggling a little bit I'm thinking God I might give up that's rugby like you did Rob with Remy and Retarvey only started playing professional rugby when

1:11:58he was 29 years old and he's 33 today so this hope for us all you're going to have for last time make it up for us out thank you very much for listening and join us on the warm up on Thursday every day the world gets a little weirder and a lot more awesome cool stuff daily takes a look at everything from mining and space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is basically changing everything it's all the cool stuff you didn't know you need it to know join us for cool stuff daily as we take a quick look at science tech and the wait what stories that make you sound way smarter at dinner subscribe to cool stuff daily now because the future is happening fast and it's way too fun to miss hi this is Alex Cantrowitz I'm the host of big technology podcast a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cmbc and if you're like me you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives so each week on big

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