An interview with a killer: Anthony Jones Pt. 1

The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to.

I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years I was catching killers.

That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys.

Instead I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law.

The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to.

Some of the content and language might be confronting.

That's because no one who comes in the contact of crime is left unchanged.

Join me now as I take you into this world.

In 2010 Eden Brown was stabbed and murdered.

Today I sat down with Anthony Jones, the person convicted of Eden's murder.

This was a tough conversation. I wouldn't have done it unless Anthony was prepared to take responsibility.

Eden was stabbed at a party by Anthony who was a mate.

It was a brutal senseless crime that destroyed lives.

We talked about the murder.

The trauma of his childhood filled with violence, the brutality of prison,

and how he has found salvation.

Needless to say, this episode covers a lot of sensitive topics.

Take care while listening to it.

Anthony Jones, welcome to I Catch Killers.

Thanks for having me.

Well, you got an interesting story and it's certainly something I want to sit down and talk to you about.

It was a mutual friend of ours, Jo, who got in contact with me and said,

hey, you got to check out this bloke AJ, he called you.

I started talking to Jo about it and your story.

It's pretty heavy. It's a full-on story.

Yeah, it's definitely heavy.

And a good mate of mine, Jo, he does the confid.

Yeah.

So we're starting to collaborate with what I'm doing as well.

But good mate of mine and he told me you're a good bloke, so.

Oh, well, that's good.

Shout out to Jo. He came on the podcast and I bumped into him.

I bumped into him in the boxing match last time I saw him.

But the work that Jo's doing with our confid is a good stuff.

Well, he's taken what he's learnt in prison.

Yeah.

How to train and what that meant to guys, physical exercise.

And he's come up with a business plan called a confid.

And now he goes into juvenile facilities all across the country and teaches him how to change their mindset,

how to use their aggressive manner in a good way through exercise.

And he's developing mentors to go walk alongside these guys.

You know, amazing what he's doing.

Yeah, I think that people who have walked the path,

Jo got himself into a lot of trouble younger years and did a lot of time.

But young bloke and girls, again, listen to people who have got that life experience.

I think that's so important.

Lift experience.

When they know you've been there, done that, they'll listen.

They're not going to listen to the authority that they have there.

And that's why Jo's made a massive impact him in his crew.

And yeah, they're super proud of what he's doing.

And gives us a pathway to guys who want to change their life.

Yeah, it's awesome.

So he said you got an interesting story.

And I looked at your background and coming from the area I did in the cops and a homicide detective.

And I see that you've been convicted of murder.

And that you actually played a guilty to the murder.

And to be honest, I was a little bit conflicted,

whether to get you on the podcast.

I've had people who have been convicted of murder on the podcast before.

But a lot of my thing during my policing career was looking out for the victims

or the families of victims of homicide.

So I thought I'd ask you the question.

And I wasn't sure what the response was, but I was quite pleased by the response

when it was Eden Brown, the person that you killed.

I said, I want to reach out to their family and just get a sense of what their families

view on me sitting down with you in a podcast.

I spoke to Jessica, Eden's sister, and she was happy for me to talk to you.

There's a couple of things that she said she wants me to ask you.

And I said, I would.

But more importantly, I was happy that you, your response when I said,

I want to speak to the family, you said, I'm so glad that you said that

because you don't want to cause any more pain to the family.

And that told me a little bit about the person that you are.

I was hoping you'd say that because I can't obviously talk to them still on parole.

And I'm so cautious about how I present myself and what I say.

They're always in the background for me in my mind.

And everything I do now is actually propelled from what's gone on.

So first of all, I always want to show them respect.

They've lost their son.

And for some reason, my life has been spared.

So I don't take that for granted.

Well, that came across when I spoke to you.

And I know that you've turned your life around.

And we're going to talk a lot about that later on in the podcast.

But dealing with the situation that sent you to Australia

and not in the first place because you've done time before that.

But with the death of...

I'll call it for what it is.

It was ruled to be a murder or homicide of Eden Brown.

Eden was your mate.

He was, yeah.

Yeah.

Let's start this podcast off talking a little bit about Eden.

Yeah.

Who he was and what your relationship with Eden was.

He was quite a bit older than me.

He was like a big brother top of roll.

As we started to become closer as mates.

I've met him through... I've met him at the gym, actually.

Through just training at the gym.

And he was...

Like, I've met him through steroids.

He was on steroids.

And I used to get steroids off him.

And then we connected as... I started to connect as mates.

And I started to hang out pretty frequently.

And...

Probably for maybe two years, I reckon.

Yeah.

And then I just...

We had had a few differences.

A few things that I just...

Honestly, didn't really appreciate what he was doing.

So I kind of distanced myself a little bit.

We weren't as close as we once were.

But we were still mates.

But we weren't...

We didn't hang out as much towards the end.

To where he passed away.

Right. And what...

What year was that?

2009, 2009, 2010.

Yeah.

We've probably met him 2009, or I reckon.

And then the murder happened in 2010.

Heavy stuff.

Yeah, I haven't really talked about like this, so...

Yeah, it is heavy, mate.

Well, yeah, we spoke before.

We sat down on...

To do the podcast.

And I said, I'll ask the hard questions.

And I think...

It's important that we know where you've come from.

And where you are now.

And what's happened in between.

So, how many years did you do for the murder of Eden?

I did 14 years.

Yeah.

That was the non-prol period.

So I did 14 years straight.

And my sentence was 18 years, eight months.

Right.

So I'm on parole now.

When did you get out?

I got out 19 months ago, roughly.

June, 2024.

You pleaded guilty to murder.

Now, I was a homicide cop for a long time.

And that's very rare.

What brought that on?

I was...

The first trial got a hung jury.

Yeah.

And that trial kind of dismissed me up,

because I got on the stand and, you know, just made up a story.

Yeah.

And I am a truthful guy.

And it impacted me so much.

And just, you know, seeing his family,

seeing my family going through all this stuff.

It kind of just took everything that I...

All my energy, really.

Yeah.

And by the second trial, about two weeks before the second trial,

for some reason, I just...

I asked...

I put my name down to get a Bible.

Yeah.

And some lady came a week later,

yelled out my name and gave me his Bible.

And I just started reading it.

But only could read, probably, at a year, six level.

Yeah.

So, I had no idea what I was reading.

But for some reason, I just read it every time I was in my cell.

And then, I just kind of made this vow to myself.

And I said, I'm just going to take this Bible with me on this second trial.

And just read it.

And so, the start of the second trial happened.

And I took a little blue Bible with me, little Gideon's.

And we'd get there very early.

Obviously, before course starts, I'd read it.

Lunch breaks, morning tea breaks, waiting for the truck.

And I was already switched off from day one on the trial,

like mentally.

Yeah.

I didn't want to be there.

But I didn't know...

Like, I had to be there.

So, like, there's no way out, right?

So, I've got to do this.

And so, no one really knew what was going on,

because I can't talk to anybody except for the lawyer.

I didn't even say too much.

But I just get reading this Bible and looking for something.

And I came across a verse or took me to a page number,

because I saw the word freedom in the index.

And it took me to a page number, a book, a passage in the book of John,

which is, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

I had no idea what that meant.

Yeah.

I just saw truth.

I saw freedom.

And I just mulled that over for weeks.

And I had...

I knew there was probably a big chance I could probably win this trial

after the first one.

I think that's reasonable if you had a high-conquer chain.

Yeah.

And the lawyers were pretty confident.

And to be very honest, I had vengeance in my heart, you know,

to go...

And I thought, if I get let out, I come coming back.

Yeah.

And I didn't want to do that.

I didn't want to hurt anyone else.

But I was...

I had severe vengeance in my heart.

But I thought, how am I...

What do I do?

And I just took that passage in the Bible

and it just...

It just...

Something internally happened to me.

And I came up with the decision to plead guilty.

And then I...

So I sat on that for a couple days.

And then one day after the morning,

so I just told my lawyer to come down after I have a chat.

And I told him I want to plead guilty.

And he just thought I was absolutely mad.

And he told the judge I was sick that day.

And he sent me back to the jail.

I ever think about it.

I ever think about it.

But my decision was made.

I came back.

I just didn't care.

I just...

Like, everything was impacted me.

Watching Eden's family.

Watching my family.

I thought, everyone gets closure.

And I just felt this conviction that I got to plead guilty.

But I've had to convince my solicitor.

So he said to me,

you need to admit to me what you did in this crime.

And because of my mind, I was so drunk and blacked out.

I've got like snippets of memory.

I couldn't tell you what happened.

So I told him what I do remember.

And he just...

He's like, mate, this is...

He goes, you gotta sack me now and we'll go to the third trial.

And I said, I'm not sacking you.

Like, we're gonna...

I'm going on with this.

Because you would have told him stuff that he's now obliged to...

Definitely can't represent you because you...

Yeah.

You would have made admissions to him or something.

100%.

Yeah.

Enough information that I do remember that we've got to go to another trial.

Yeah.

And have another legal time.

You can't represent him.

Yeah, so he was doing his due diligence, of course.

And...

But I said, no, we're not gonna do that.

I'm pleading guilty, man.

And he's like, mate, you're gonna get so long.

And I said, I don't care what I get.

I sat there through the...

Perspects and I said, you know, my family, man.

Like, my mom, my dad, the heroin...

The heroin use, the violence, the prison, like...

I go, you know, my whole history.

I said, nobody takes responsibility for anything.

And I go, I want to break the cycle today.

And I'm going to play guilty and show my family that this is how we change.

And then he just...

You didn't know what to do with that.

He sat back and...

He was teasing his eyes and...

And he goes, only condition is, I've got to go see the DPP

and see if they'll, you know, write you at least a decent fact sheet.

Yeah.

And they did.

Right.

And they had to get up and get rained again.

We will talk further about that offense,

because I've said to Jessica, even sister,

I'd ask you things and that's...

Things that she wanted to ask that the family wanted to find out.

But let's just take a step back.

Your childhood.

Tell us about your childhood.

Yeah, childhood wasn't good.

So, mum and dad were both heroin addicts.

So, I was raised, you know, addicts home.

First memories of living in a Waterloo in the big hours of commission flats at Waterloo.

Around four, five years old.

And just have...

For some reason, I just remember my mum shooting up from about four years old, you know.

She used to do it in front of me.

Which I thought I was too young.

I wouldn't...

But I just remember everything.

And...

That's your first sort of memory.

So your mum...

Yeah, like shooting up.

Mum always with me.

But...

I remember the tourney car.

I remember the spoon.

I remember the colour of it.

I remember everything.

And so...

But I didn't know what that was.

And then...

My dad had a domestic with my mum around five years old.

I remember that.

In the kitchen.

And then he just...

Like he...

He flogged her.

And then he just walked out.

And then...

Like I didn't really have a seat.

I saw him maybe a handful of times again in my life.

Okay, so how old were you?

So, five years old.

So I was just me and mum.

Living in this...

Have any siblings?

I did, but to him.

So I had a brother and a sister.

Yeah.

But I...

Like I think I knew them when I was really young.

Okay.

But they're not in my family.

You stayed with you.

Yeah, I was just with mum.

Yeah.

And I was just me and her.

But she'd moved us away from our family.

Like my grandfather and aunties and uncles and that.

Because of her addiction and stuff.

Yeah.

So I was just me and her.

And then we moved into a spot...

Sorry, he was just here.

Yeah.

In a one bedroom studio.

And like no toilet, no nothing, you know.

And we met this...

My mum met this other guy.

And that's when we met this man.

Like my whole life just...

It just went to Shedman.

It changed.

Well, you...

It's not going too well at the start.

It's not going too good already.

Yeah, but okay.

So what happened to me?

So this is a new...

Yeah.

New partner.

And I remember him.

He's always at King's Cross.

And we'd always been the cross.

Mum's always going pick up or whatever.

And I remember this dude.

And he always made me laugh.

So I was kind of like...

You know, he's all right.

Yeah.

But he asked me to get out of the footy.

And then he said, I love footy.

So he took us to the footy.

And I convinced Mum to let me, like, let him take us.

And I was going into hospital.

Because I was in hospital for probably about four years on and off with some stomach issues.

I was a young bloke.

Yeah.

So I'd get a hospital on the Monday.

But he took us to the footy on the Sunday.

And went to the footy.

He came home with us to this apartment or studio.

And then he took me to hospital the next day.

And I was in hospital for a couple of months.

Yeah.

And so I kind of fell in love with this guy.

Because, like, my dad is not coming.

Yeah.

This guy stepped in.

And he's telling me all the things that a young bloke wants to hear.

And I was like, okay.

I remember him once.

He said to me, okay, is that guy?

Is not your father?

He's your sperm donor.

He was only father.

And then I got out of hospital.

Went home with him.

He was there.

We were talking up a good guy.

Isn't it?

Oh, he's going.

That sort of thing.

Yeah.

And he's telling me, like, made me fall in love with this guy as a little boy.

And I was like, I thought I'd keep the go.

You know, I got this guy here.

He's looking after me and mom.

But then one night, he just still turned.

Like, he was a hero and had it himself and an alcoholic.

And he's such a charismatic guy.

But then one night, I don't know what it was, but he turned.

And then he just, he locked the door.

He did lock the door and he just attacked mom.

Like, and he didn't just, he doesn't just attack mom for like, you know, a couple of minutes.

Yeah.

Like, this guy's all night.

Like, 12 hours.

The bashing.

The beatings.

Like, just the weight.

The psychological.

Just talking to her.

Yeah.

Like, I'd never seen anything like it.

So then that was a, that was a pattern now.

It just kept happening all the time.

And how, how old were we?

I'm six years old.

Right.

So you're saying this regularly.

Yeah.

And I live in one room.

Yeah, everything.

I see the whole thing.

Yeah.

I can't get away.

There's no room for me.

Yeah.

So I kind of begin to shut down as a, as a young kid.

And I'm already struggling to learn at school.

I'm always in and out of hospital.

Um, these two just take me all around Sydney into, you know, to get on everyone.

And methadone clinics.

Like, this is my life, you know.

And what, uh, that age, what happened when they're on the nod when they.

I don't.

It just looked after yourself.

Yeah.

Like, they're my memories.

My dad and my mom sitting there.

I know when they've had a shot because they'll get out of the bathroom or whatever.

All they do it.

Well, my mom would do it in front of me.

And then my name within, you know, pretty soon.

Hmm.

Their heads in their, in their laps.

And then I'm the Sydney.

You know, and so I tried to run away even from that place.

Um, if I was only six, I'd know how to go.

I ran away for the day and came back.

And then one particular night, like where I got hectic was Christmas Eve.

And then my stepfather said, make sure you come and get me.

We'll be in the pub and we'll take you to Santa.

Yeah.

So mom, we went to every pub in Soheels.

And we couldn't find him.

She said, uh, don't worry.

We'll just, we'll just go.

So we did the Santa thing came back.

And then sometime later that night, he came home.

Key in the lock.

He deadlocks the door.

I was asleep.

Like, but I was awake.

And, um,

But then I went to sleep and I woke up just like this murderous screams, man.

Like, um,

Screamer was normal now.

But this was like, mom's gonna die.

This is your mom's.

Yes, I'm mom's just screaming.

And, um, I had a, I had a, I had a cupboard.

That was my wall.

And my bed was here.

And I just looked out at the cupboard and then my mom was naked.

And she's pregnant this time with my sister.

Yeah.

And he was just, just blow it everywhere.

And I don't know what he was doing.

But he was, I yelled out to him, please dad, just stop.

And he just came over, dragged me out of the bed.

And for some reason, he sat me on this chair and he, he tied me to it.

And I'm just frozen with fear, you know.

And my mom's like naked.

He's blood everywhere.

And she's just like petrified, man.

And, um,

He, for some reason, he, like, he would, he had this knife.

It was, it had a long knife and an orange handle.

I don't forget it.

And, um, it was quite blunt, though.

So he'd stick, like, he'd cut up, but not too deep.

And he'd just torture her.

And then he'd say to me, son, I want you to laugh.

And I said, what?

Because I want you to laugh, mate.

If you don't, if you'd laugh, I won't kill your sister.

And I won't kill your mother.

In reference to the...

Yeah.

So then he's like doing whatever he's doing with the knife to my mom.

And he's making me laugh, watching it.

And my mom, before I laughed, my mom just screamed at me.

She said, laughs on laugh.

So I just started laughing.

Like, they're not black, they're.

And I, or a member later, was that my dad was unconscious.

Like, from just starting to know what happened.

And I had to lift him off my mother and then dress my mom.

And she was, you know, bad way.

And, um, like, I actually walked to the Surreilles Police Station.

It's dirty.

And then he, my father was charged with attempted murder.

And then my mom ended up putting him in jail.

But then we'd take, take me to visit him every week.

Okay, just let me unpack what you described there.

Because that's...

Yeah.

There's domestic violence and all that.

But that's...

It's extreme.

That is extreme.

So you're tied to a chair.

You're six, seven years old.

Your mom's been bashed.

She's screaming.

Yeah.

You got this psychopath.

So what I woke up, he was actually raping her.

So like, this is...

This gets...

Yeah.

Yeah.

And telling you to laugh.

Or otherwise, you're going to kill...

He's going to cut my sister out.

His words were.

And I kill your mother.

What?

Yeah.

And I still don't know why he did this to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like that it was bad and then there's really bad and that's...

That's just pure evil.

Well, I can't even comprehend what effect that would have on you.

Oh, we'll definitely get into that.

But he's still to this day, the most evil man I've ever come across.

And you know, I've been sitting in jail for a long time.

No one comes close.

So you've gone to the police station and reported that he's been charged with the...

The tent...

Tempt murder.

Yeah.

You're thinking that's hopefully the last year you see of him.

Yeah.

But when he's doing time for that crime, I'm probably others.

Yeah.

Your mum's...

We're going to visit him.

Yeah, right.

And that one...

That one confused me too.

Because then he charms us again.

Yeah.

He's charming mum.

He's charming me.

And we never talk about this again, me mum.

We never raise it again.

And then mum's like...

And I had to give evidence against my dad.

Right.

And I remember my father signed to me.

He said to me, I know the cops are going to try to tell you to tell on me.

And he said to me, you just tell them what you need to do to your son.

And I got that.

I don't want to do that.

Because he already been like training me.

You never talk.

You know the dog.

Like this is how he talk.

He's ingrained it into me.

And then he's telling me to do it.

And I was like, I don't want to do that, dad.

And then not until later in life, I kind of knew what he was doing there.

But then mum, you know, he manipulates mum.

And mum gets on the stand and says he didn't do these things.

And he gets a no bill, I think it was.

And he gets out and he gets released back to our home.

After all that.

After all that.

Going through the courtroom.

He came back to our house.

And then it goes on again.

So that would have taken a year or so.

Yeah, roughly.

I'm not exactly sure.

But...

Okay, we're looking at eight, nine years of age.

This...

It comes back out.

He's coming back out.

And he's promised the world to us.

As they do.

As they do.

He's a con man.

And we got a emergency housing after that though.

Yeah.

Like why he was in custody.

So we went from the little apartment to a...

Like a...

An apartment with two or three bedrooms.

And then my sister was born.

But my sister had so many complications.

Because what happened in the womb.

She almost died a few times in hospital and...

He got out.

He was there for the birth.

Right.

Which...

And then he actually...

They moved us and he moved into the new house with us.

So I...

I got to love the system.

And then it just happened all over again.

So repeat the domestic violence.

Yeah, and then the next one was...

It went to Dracula again.

And it happened again.

I'm just trying to get a sense.

And it was probably hard because you can't even remember

what you were thinking or how you were looking at life at that age.

But I can't comprehend what you've just described and your view on life.

Like how did you function at school?

Did you have mates?

Did you have...

No, well...

I was always the old one out at school because we never had money.

We never had food much.

I always never had the uniform.

So I always stood out.

I was always looking...

Look at a different kid.

And then by that stage I knew my life was different.

So I always kind of shut down.

I didn't say too much.

I only tell him I really talked when I played 40, 40 was the only thing that I hang on to.

So I just started getting ultra aggressive as a young kid.

Yeah.

And fighting.

And I just started stealing, fighting.

I just shut down.

I got diagnosed with dyslexia.

And as soon as I heard that, I was a young bloke.

I just thought I'm stupid.

And I was getting taken to psychs all over the joint from my mom.

And I was kind of jails coming out like...

I just completely shut down.

You build up aggression.

I would imagine.

Sure.

And so many different fronts of home life.

You've got the social skills to find some mates.

So you start stealing, getting in the fights, being aggressive.

I would imagine you like a ticking time bomb.

Yeah.

Like I got expelled in your one for stealing.

I started stealing it six years old.

And like fight kids.

As soon as I used to get bullied early on.

And then when I met this guy, I must have father.

Like he said, you're not going to get bullied anymore.

If they hurt, you hurt them.

And he goes, but if you become the bully, like I'll bully you.

But then I'm like, I'm coming home.

You're bullying us all the time.

So it was just all these mixed messages.

Life was advice from a psychopath.

Yeah.

And so then I became the bully.

Yeah.

Like I just took, if I had to do nothing, I'd take it.

I was doing this from six years old.

You mentioned football, like the team sports and the environment.

Did you have any role models, any male role models?

Like my grandfather was always a really, my mom's father.

Yeah.

But we never got the same much.

Right.

But when he was a very, like, you know, loved him, adored him.

And he was like my saving grace as he real little bloke.

And but also my old brother came into my life to older brothers.

From you.

From the logical father.

No, from the stepfather.

Right.

Okay.

He had two sons.

Yeah.

And they were like in their mid-twenties.

And one just kept going back in there at a jail.

And the other one did too.

But the oldest one, he just kind of became like my father.

Yeah.

He just never left me.

And so like, if I didn't have that bloke, I'd probably be dead, you know.

So he just, he knew what his father was.

And I think he just thought I can't leave this kid.

Right.

So he took that big brother.

Yeah.

He really did, man.

And he's still there today.

No, good on him.

Yeah.

Good on him.

When did you start getting in trouble with the cops?

I think I first got arrested about eight years old.

Yeah.

So we moved to another place.

I was a commission, like, communally, in our time.

And then I just, you know, there's like hundreds of, hey, how's that?

Kids just, you know, lurking.

Mums and dads on heroin or whatever.

And so I started hanging with older kids and then got in a lot of trouble.

And started getting arrested probably eight years old.

Did, uh, you do any time in youth detention?

No, always threatened to go.

Yep.

And they always gave me chances.

And I'd snap out of it a little bit.

And when foodie season was on.

Yeah.

I noticed when I looked back, foodie season was on.

I'm like, I'm getting a lot of trouble.

Yeah.

When foodie season is on, I had something to look forward to.

To the channel.

And you know, just, and I could be aggressive on the field.

Yeah.

And then I started to get good.

So I started to like, okay, this is my way.

This is my way out.

Well, about, uh, from an education point of view,

you've diagnosed as being dyslexic.

Did you just shut down and just behave to cover that up?

Yeah.

I just completely shut down.

I couldn't read and write properly.

I just completely shut.

As soon as I heard the word dyslexic, I just convinced myself I'm an idiot.

Right.

I'm incapable of learning.

Yeah.

And when the violence at home, like, I just gave school and just be like mute.

And I just act out, you know, as soon as I, if I had the reading class,

act out.

I'm not reading.

Yeah.

Get kicked out of class.

Awesome.

That's, that was my life for school.

Yeah.

It's a sad pattern, isn't it?

A lot of kids do it.

Yeah.

So you look back and you go, I know.

I know it's going on.

Yeah.

You know, at the time, you think they, they just bring the class.

Yeah.

They've been, they've been a goose making life hard for a run.

They're hiding something.

They're hiding something.

And I just never said anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was trained not to.

You spoke of your grandfather as you becoming a teenager.

Did you have any, um, dreams or ambitions or any, any idea what you wanted to do?

Or you've grown up with a lot of people who have been in and out of jail.

Did you think that was just your natural progression?

Yeah.

There was two dreams, really.

There was one dream since I was a little boy.

It was just to play NRL.

Yeah.

That was my dream.

I thought, that's it.

That's the one.

That's how I get out of this.

And if that failed, well, my ride of passage is going to jail.

Yeah.

So one footy ended.

That was it.

How did you footy end?

Did it get to the point where you weren't going to cut it at the level?

Yeah.

So you started playing representally footy at 14.

So manly started looking at me, started playing from, went to development squads, Harold Matthews,

SG Ball, and thought, okay.

So you're on the way.

Yeah.

But then I started getting a knee injury.

Yeah.

And then lost a lot of confidence.

And then obviously not talking about what was going on inside of me either.

And I was already getting arrested a lot.

I was on curfews.

I was going to court all the time.

And then I had my first job of alcohol.

And then that was it.

That was a spiral.

Over the next couple of years, I just lost the desire of the one thing that all ever wanted to do.

Yeah.

There's a lot of stories of people wasted talent where they, the drugs and alcohol have kicked in at those in those years.

Because I thought I'd been never had a drug or an alcohol ever.

And then when I had my first drink and started to get, started to do regularly, I didn't feel like I was numb.

But I actually never knew how much pain and anger I was in until I had the alcohol.

I was like, oh, I don't feel like that.

I feel happy.

Right.

So that was the impact that they had on you.

Yeah.

It wasn't because I liked it.

I hated it.

I hated it.

I still hated it.

Yeah.

But at that, at the beginning, it was like, oh, I can block everything out.

But then it took, it took complete control over me.

How, how are we when you started drinking?

About 15.

Okay.

And it didn't take over my life to about 18 months later.

And then I just eventually just walked away from, from everything.

Right.

And my stepfather actually OD in 2003 on heroin.

Yeah.

And then that was it.

His effect dying on me was like, it was horrific.

It was weird.

Yeah.

Talked me through that because he wasn't the greatest role model in your life.

No.

But he had a profound effect on you.

I just never accepted what he did to me at that point.

Yeah.

You know?

And for some reason, I idolized him.

I just saw the good in him.

Still looking for his love.

Yeah.

And then when he died, three months later, I went to duty.

And then my life of jail began.

What, what sort of crimes were they alcohol-induced?

Alcohol-induced.

Everything.

Yeah.

Just violent crimes.

There's always violence.

Rubberies.

Rubberies, rubbery companies.

And then just, you know, violence.

Did, and I know the type of person you are now.

And so I'm asking not how you look back now, but how you looked at yourself at the time.

When you, if you bash someone and rob them.

Yeah.

I would imagine this, you know, the normal reaction is feel a little bit of guilt.

Some poor dudes just walking along the road.

And you've flogged him and taken their wallet or whatever.

Did you have any conscience back then?

No.

Very rarely.

So it didn't even, it didn't give you the second thought.

Not much.

Yeah.

I was probably at my worst when I was about 15 or 17.

Yeah.

I was just like, I had tunnel vision.

Well, you know, I've given you a bit of a lifeline here.

I think we're all a little bit that way at that age.

Like you do something and you don't consider.

I thought it was funny.

Yeah.

You don't consider the consequences or the impact that's having it having on.

And I hate myself.

Yeah.

I had no self worth.

So it's, there was guilt.

Definitely like when I got caught.

Yeah.

I just always ate up.

Yeah, it was me.

It was like relief, I think.

It was weird.

But in the moment, yeah, I just didn't.

I was just acting out.

Your offenses were the vacumulator.

I imagine that then you went to Juvie.

Yep.

How long did you get in there?

I did five months.

I turned 18.

We're about in Cobham.

Right.

And then went to Baxter.

Yeah.

And then turned 18.

And then got out.

Poly, I think it was about four days after my 18th.

Yeah.

And then went to jail eight days later.

Okay.

So tell me about that experience in the juvenile detention.

Yeah.

So you're gone in there at 16.

You're not being judged in there.

Like there's, the people are in a lot of them

would have had the same mindset as you did.

Yeah.

Of Juvie for me was great.

Like I enjoyed it.

A great as in.

Yeah.

It was fine.

I was safe.

Okay.

I got fed.

I had a routine.

I'd have to worry about where I'm eating.

Who's going to hurt me?

It was an easier life.

It was comfort.

It was something that I never had.

I never had the structure in routine.

So for me, I really crave that.

That's sad, isn't it?

That's all.

That's the environment can give you the security you're looking for.

Like I shared a tea when I walked here.

Yeah.

I didn't want to leave.

Like I really didn't, man.

Not to late in life when I was reflecting.

I thought, no kid should have wanted to be in there.

Yeah.

And I wanted to be there.

You know, so.

Okay.

So they've released you when you've turned 18.

And you've hit the streets with,

haven't learned any lessons.

Nothing.

Probably have to do crime a little bit better.

Yeah.

And you've still got the anger issues.

Oh, yeah.

I was fine.

And I was always fighting.

But I didn't want to go out.

I just went on a bender.

I got drunk for eight days.

I worked up in the police station.

You're going to jump.

What are you done in those eight days?

So they said, I don't even have a memory of that.

So it started back then.

Aggravated robbery.

It was a shock.

Yeah.

And barely.

I didn't even remember it.

I just remembered waking up in the police station.

So you drink to the point of blackout.

Yeah.

Back then, definitely to the point of blackout.

And then just wake up and you find out what you've done.

How?

What was the consequences of that?

I got five years and three years.

I got a three-year sentence in until April.

Okay.

So I got out when I was 21.

Where'd you do your toll?

So I did my, did the Young Offenders program

at John Moroney and went through the Oberon process

and did the works release and went home after three years.

Yeah.

So on a marred silver water paramedic parkly.

How was that going in the 18?

Because it's a different level, different environment

going from juvenile detention to adult prison.

How did you cope with that and how did you feel?

It was like a real weird feeling,

because it's like I never left Juvie.

Yeah.

And I was with two other people.

So I co-offenders.

So I wasn't alone.

Which kind of helped.

You know, it was fearful.

Yeah.

You got a jowl as a kid.

I was at 18-year-old little 70 kilo whip it.

So, you know, I'm going in there and there was always anxiety

and fear.

Yeah.

And then, but then as soon as I got in there,

I recognized majority of these guys,

so the guys my age.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, okay.

So I just...

It's just the next level.

It's just the next level.

It's just the secondary school.

Yeah.

Just keep moving forward.

Yeah.

And then you go to the young offenders place under 25

and you just all the same age.

Do you want it?

Is there anything that could have...

Could have changed you?

Like at that point in time when you were in there?

No.

I wasn't listening to anyone.

I just thought being sober for three years

and getting my head right training every day,

I eventually got a year 10 certificate in that time.

So it did some...

So a little bit of...

Got an education.

You know, the ignorance of me thought, oh, I'm sweet.

And then as soon as you step out,

I was able to get a job and had a girlfriend.

The life was pretty good.

But then I never addressed any issue.

So then that started the pre-surface again.

Tell us...

That's where I think a lot of mistakes are made.

Like you've done your stint in prison.

Ideal situation is that, okay,

you're going to come out and turn your life around.

I get the sense when you were released out.

You did your three years.

Yep.

I get the sense when you were released.

You didn't have a game plan.

You just...

Yeah, okay.

Open the gates, let me out and let's see what happens.

Everybody in jail.

Everybody in jail.

Yeah.

What's going to happen?

That's why we've got the high recidivism.

100%.

I'll start my new life and prepare everything.

The day you get out.

Yeah.

And I learnt that this time.

Yeah.

Like all the mistakes that I've made,

I reflected later on.

But yeah, I just thought I'll start a life when I get out.

I thought I got a job.

Sweet.

Yeah.

But you know, that's like the foolish.

What was the job you were going?

I was just working in a roofing factory.

Yeah.

So I opened a shop roofing where I made a mind was working.

And he's the boss, let me in.

I started working there.

So I had a job the first week I got out of jail.

And in a routine, loving life.

I thought I had a really changed my life here.

Did you think you were going to make it go up?

Did you think you were going to stay out?

I really did.

Yeah.

I was like, I hated jail.

I didn't want to get back.

And I had a clear mind.

I had a goal.

Like just to work in Jota.

But soon as I started drinking again.

Slowly.

It took about nine months.

Yeah.

And I just started to go back to old habits.

You know, start hanging around the same people again.

Did you at any point in time look at your drinking and think,

okay, this is where it all goes bad?

Yeah.

I hated drinking.

I actually hated drinking.

Did you consider giving help like AA or...?

I never knew how to ask for help man.

And it was always ingrained in me.

You asked for help you a week.

I was always fighting that I wanted help.

Yeah.

But I had no idea how to ask for it.

And then nobody...

Like I just...

It took many, many years for me to finally say I need help, you know.

But this...

I wasn't listening to anybody.

And I was just so hard-headed at Chipmunk's shoulder.

There's no way I'm going to express to anybody that I need help.

Did you have anyone on the outside, anyone that gave you a clip over the year

and said, mate, if you drink,

you're not a good person and you drink,

your life is going to be destroyed.

Was there any any support in that way?

Well, I would have bothered tried to.

Yeah.

But he's drinking himself.

Okay.

He's living his life.

Yeah.

And I was just...

And no one really was going to kind of game enough to say to me, you know?

Yeah.

And like I would have this...

But I just...

You know.

At least on him.

I'm not an expert on addiction.

Alcohol, whether it's alcohol, drugs or whatever.

But I've spoken to a...

enough people sitting opposite you that have gone down the path.

And a lot of them say, you got to fix the cause,

to fix the drinking or the addiction.

Why?

Why are you?

And taking on ball what you said earlier on,

where you find them relief from your fucked up life to a degree.

Oh, yeah.

By...

Okay, let's get on the drink and all the pain goes away.

All the pain goes away.

But that's why I like to go out of jail, too.

Yeah.

Because I didn't have to drink.

And it was taken away from me.

I'm not really a drug taker.

Yeah.

So in jail, I was like, oh.

I was going to be normal.

So it was such a warped mentality.

I didn't feel normal as I was back in jail.

Yeah.

Like, because I didn't want to hurt anybody anymore.

Even from like the round that age, I was like, oh, I just got a jail.

Right?

That's three years I was out after I was 21.

Yeah.

Like, as time's there, like, I want to go jail.

Like, I even got myself arrested and begged the police to bar refuse me to go jail.

Yeah.

Because I was...

I knew that I was something was wrong with me.

Just talk us through that.

Like, that must be hard to come to terms with the fact that, hey, I need to be locked up.

Yeah.

And I went to the police station.

I had...

I was in the pissing manly with my misses.

Got blind drunk.

Had fights with security guards and whatnot.

I snapped out of the gut out of the pub and I just said, ah, man, I'm going.

Yeah.

And she's like, where are you going?

So I'm going to jail.

And then, like, she was trying to pull me and push me and I slapped her.

Yeah.

I said, and then I just ran.

Yeah.

And I ran from the stain hotel to the manly police station.

And then my brother was with me.

Yeah.

And I took him watch off and my wallet gave it to him.

He was like, where are you going?

I said, I'm going to jail.

And then we're in the police station.

And the cops like, comes out and he's like, what are you doing?

And I grabbed the cop by the collar.

Yeah.

I said, if you don't arrest me, you're going to knock you out.

And my brother's like, just flipping out saying he's on ice.

And this cop was just, I don't think he's ever come across anything like that in his life.

And then one of the coppers came out and kind of knew me from the gym.

And I said, come in here.

And I said, yeah, I'll come in the dock as long as you about refuse me.

I'll tell you a crime that I've committed just now.

I slapped my misses.

Yeah.

And then he just thought I was crazy and was blind drunk.

And he said, just get out of sleep.

And I said, no, no, no, you have to charge me.

And he promised me that he'd charge me and about refuse me.

And I woke up and then the female cops like, wake up.

You've been bailed.

Right.

Yeah.

And then that was in February.

Oh, Australia day.

Yeah.

And then June, I went to jail for murder.

Right.

So I knew something was wrong with me.

Yeah.

And that was my crime for help.

But I didn't know how to ask for help.

And I got released from the cells.

When straight home, my misses there slapped me.

What did you have?

Well, you're getting any professional help.

No, I never spoke to anybody.

And was your mum still in the...

Yeah, mum...

I was living at mum's house at the time.

Yeah.

And she's still in heroin, right?

Yeah.

We had a toxic relationship there.

So she's in her own health.

I'm in mine.

The whole family were.

So this is just a sequence of events.

We know you've done your time in juvenile.

You've got out.

You've locked up eight days after.

Spent three years in prison.

And then you're out.

The incident you just talked about then

was two years out of prison.

Three years out.

Three years out.

There was two dozen and ten.

What other type of stuff were you doing in the lead up to this?

By that time I was fully living in criminal life.

You weren't working?

No.

Not at that time.

Sterling or...

Yeah, I was just doing...

I was just making money.

Yeah.

And I wasn't doing good things.

Yeah.

I wasn't having a good people.

I was locked in to that world.

And just ticking time bomb in.

Well, I suppose the inevitable happens.

And if I looked at you,

if I was looking at from a cops' point of view

and I'm looking at the history,

I'm like, OK, what's any matter of time before he does something bad

that's going to put him away for a long time and...

Oh, sure.

That's actually what happened.

So with the lead up to the murder of Eden Brown,

what was your mindset?

I think you've explained it to a degree.

I was just trying to...

Oh, man.

I didn't care if I lived or died.

I was in a dark place.

I was...

Like, I think I held on till 24.

Right.

Like, through all the trauma and all the shit that I went through,

I never spoke.

And by the age of 24,

I think I just...

It all came out.

I was going to die.

Yeah.

Or go to jail for a very long time.

And I think I just burst.

Everything was...

I broke.

Is it...

It was an anger building up inside you.

Yeah, there was...

Man, there was hate and rage.

Look, I don't think I've ever met anyone as angry as me.

Yeah.

And full of rage.

So would that play out if someone just bumped you the wrong way

or disrespected you or...

Yeah, like, I wasn't like...

Tumor.

I'm a loyal guy, I love my mates.

Yeah.

I'm normal.

But then if it clicks, that's it.

Yeah.

We're on it.

And I'll just go.

We've all got friends like that.

Yeah.

There's always come over in that...

See you later.

You know, anything could happen.

What happened the night, Eden, was killed?

It was just a normal night, man.

I just went down to a mate of mine who called me just for a couple of beers.

And, you know, 15 minutes from my house.

Yeah.

And that was in the afternoon sometime.

And I rocked up with a case and bottle.

With a mate of mine and...

We just started drinking.

It was just normal, you know.

There wasn't anything.

And people just kept coming and going and coming.

So just a party.

Yeah, it just started like a gathering.

And then eventually, you know, there was nearly up to 30 to 40 people there.

I reckon at one time.

And by the time...

I remember, like...

It was probably like 10 o'clock.

And I was waiting for my misses to come about 12 o'clock.

She was coming after work.

So I thought, I'll just stay, I'll just drink till then and then...

I'll head off.

But then it just all went pear-shaped, man.

Like, oh, I was so blind.

Like, I just remember sitting in the garage.

Everyone was drinking.

A lot of guys were on Coke and I didn't take any Coke and anything.

And, I remember, like, eating wasn't there till maybe like...

I don't know, later in the night.

10 o'clock, 11 o'clock.

And I remember getting asked that to bring Eden.

And I said, no, no, don't bring Eden here, man.

Like, this is not his scene, man.

And I just knew, like...

Something popped off.

And I said, no, no, don't bring him here.

And I didn't want to call him.

And like, nobody knows this stuff.

And I won't say names or anything.

And they kept saying to me, calling, you know?

And eventually I just got so drunk that I said, oh, fuck.

Oh, I'm calling.

And I remember Eden saying to me, are you going to be there?

I said, yeah, me.

Oh, me too, but I'm in there, then I'm going.

I said, he's like, I only come if you come.

I don't trust anyone.

I don't trust these guys, you know?

I said, yeah, yeah.

And I said whatever I said to him, and he came.

He came with, I think, three girls.

And everything's...

No worries.

Drinking, fine.

There's normal stuff.

And then I remember going outside.

And I was blind, man.

And went to the toilet, which is chucked the leak in the backyard.

And as I picked up my beer, turned around, you know,

just say a fight, which is normal.

Didn't think any of it.

And then I realized it was Eden.

And he's getting, you know, getting attacked.

And that's where I'm black out, man.

And then after that, I just see screams after I'm black out.

I've come to somehow.

I remember someone grabbing me or something.

Not a hundred percent sure, man.

I just remember snapping out of whatever I was in.

And, you know, I heard these screams.

And I saw Eden run away.

And he ran through a fence.

A color-borne fence, like, you know, his fear for his life.

And I remember that.

And then we just left.

And then went to other houses after that.

And I just saw it, are you, okay?

Punch on.

Didn't think anything of it again.

And I've got no blood on me or anything like that.

And then I just continued to drink.

Just kept drinking.

And then it was like maybe six o'clock in the morning or something.

And I was at this house.

And they said a couple of guys got arrested at the scene.

And I was like, okay, why?

Just for the fight.

And they're like, yeah.

And I was like, okay.

And then one of the ladies at the house was ringing hospitals.

And I was like, okay.

And then finally ran the hospital.

And they said, you know, Eden Brent's passed away.

I was like, all right.

Couldn't pull my head.

Like, I couldn't understand how.

Because I had no idea that he'd been stabbed at that time.

So I left.

Started to say, bro, I was like, what's...

I couldn't get any answers.

And I just sat this feeling like, all right.

They came for me.

I didn't really know why they come for me.

I just sat this feeling.

And I knew the guys I was with.

I didn't get to say it to me anyway.

And I watched and used that night.

And they said, Eden, the man died at a house party.

Ben stabbed.

Yeah, then I found out he'd been stabbed.

And I was like, okay.

And I was just waiting.

And I was like, okay.

But the police didn't rate any more.

Like my mum's house, my brother's house, or anyone,

to the Monday.

I think it's happened on the Saturday last night.

And then on Monday, I got the call from one of my brothers

saying, mate, they've rated it out.

These houses for you from murder.

And I said, okay.

So pretty much then I just got drunk

until they arrested me in King's Cross for three weeks.

How long after?

Three weeks.

Okay.

So my understanding of it, and I'm only going through information

that was contained in the media about the time

that there was the fight at the party.

And that he was stabbed twice.

Yeah.

And you've pleaded guilty to it.

No one else has been charged in relation to it.

Okay.

And I take on board what you said during that second trial

to your solicitor, obviously, was incriminating against you.

That's why I had to take it off.

I've seen fights.

I've seen drunken fights.

I've seen stuff happen.

I haven't seen it to that extent in my personal life,

but I've seen it in my policing life where someone ends up dead.

Did you, at that point in time leading up to it

where you tried to hand yourself into the cops,

you were concerned you were going to do something stupid.

Stupid is a nice way of putting it,

but you were going to cause some damage.

The knife, the knife that was used for the murder,

did you bring the knife to the party?

I've never carried a knife.

A knife in my life.

That knife was from the kitchen.

It was out of the block.

It was a steak knife.

And I don't even know.

I remember that knife being in the garage

because I was opening coronas with it.

There was no ball opener.

That's why the reason the knife was in the garage.

Right.

That's what I do know.

Yeah.

And that was enough to...

That took his life.

Did you have any injuries from the fight?

You didn't have a drop of blood.

Right.

You didn't have an injury?

When you found out he died and you were thinking

the police are going to come after you.

And clearly from what you told you,

you're solicitor and barrister,

you had some recollection of it.

Do you recall being in the fight at all

or what the anger...

I definitely...

I know and towards the fight.

Yeah.

And obviously I blacked out of that stage.

Yeah.

And you know...

And Eden said that I stabbed him.

Yeah.

Before he died.

Right.

So in a dying deposition?

Yeah.

Dying declaration.

He said Anthony Jones stabbed me.

Right.

Well, I want to ask how you feel.

But just piecing it all together.

And yeah.

If I was sitting and this is uncomfortable,

we're in a podcast.

If I'm sitting in a...

Yeah.

An interview room is a homicide detective.

I'm asking you a few more questions.

We'll have the knife get in your hand.

That type of stuff.

When the cops arrested you,

did you participate in an interview?

No.

I was refused to speak.

Right.

So...

And which is...

Is your right?

I've never spoke to him now.

Right.

This is the first time anybody is going to hear anything.

This is the first time, man.

When did you first find out that Eden had passed away

when the girl phoned the hospital?

When the girl phoned the hospital here.

Yeah.

And I would ask you, if we're sitting in an interview room,

why do you think you were the person responsible for it?

Yeah.

I don't know what the police really said to me.

They asked me questions.

I remember, pardon me, what they were.

I just said, now I'm not talking.

Just charge me.

Yeah.

Taking back to the doc.

That's as far as I went.

I knew that I was going to say anything.

I would imagine that, if given the fact that they did charge you with it,

you've got the dying declaration that,

as I said, that you stabbed him.

And there would have been witnesses at the party.

I would suggest some of the witnesses

would have said I've seen nothing when they might have.

But there must have been some witnesses

that gave some evidence about what took place.

Yeah.

So there was a few crowd witnesses against me.

Yeah.

But no one saw the crime.

No one conclusively said what they saw.

I could say it was me.

In a circumstances like that,

where mid-trial and then the solicitors talking to the DPP

and what we would call it,

it settled on some agreed facts.

Yeah.

So the facts would be, OK, your side,

you had been the defense

and the prosecutor agreed that these are the facts

of what's occurred with this incident.

Were you comfortable with the agreed facts?

Yeah, I didn't really...

I don't think I read it, but I didn't really process it.

But you had your solicitor looking at it.

Yeah, he read it to me.

No deciding point.

Yeah, he really did.

He went above and beyond for me, man.

Right.

He's a decent man.

He really believed in me and helped me as much as he could.

Going over what we've talked about,

you're taking responsibility for it.

For sure.

Yeah, OK.

That's me.

All right.

There was never a pre-meditation, man.

Yeah.

I never had any.

There was never a thought in my mind to kill anybody

or he didn't that night.

That's the frustration I got as a homicide detective,

how many times

and people go murderers.

They've planned it.

They're doing this.

And even this might...

Oh, I won't say annoyed, but people might disagree.

Where people say mandatory sentences in murder

or if you murder someone, you should get life.

There's a lot of different types of murders

that people don't quite understand.

And knives, I often see that.

I've seen people get stabbed 20 times and they don't die.

Yeah.

And then I see people that get stabbed once.

It's quite a couple of teenagers.

And someone pulls out a pen knife and stabs them and they die.

That's the risk inherited with...

Yeah, if you do use a weapon.

But yeah, it must be difficult for you sitting here talking about it.

I'm sitting here from a homicide detective's point of view going,

I want to go here, I want to go there and all that.

But I appreciate you being open

and talking about it.

We'll take a break now.

When we get back, I did tell you that Eden's system,

representing the family,

had a few things that she wanted me to ask you.

And I think we also need to clarify why we're sitting down

and talking is that, you know,

one of the things that's impressed me

is how you have turned your life around

and the direction your life is on now.

And we're going to talk about that at length

because it's very rare that someone comes in

to a situation like this with a person like me

and sits down and talks about what we're talking about.

So let's have a break, it's a heavy conversation.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel.

I'll say that otherwise people might come back.

That sounds good. Cheers.