An Orange Republican

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3:23Today's episode is brought to you by the Greenman Group, a European investment in operations group investing in and operating the essential sustainable assets for our future. The Greenman Group focuses on three pillars, sustainable investing, real assets such as real estate and agriculture as well as green energy infrastructure. What makes the group unique is its integrated model. It doesn't just finance these assets through its network of businesses, it builds, manages and optimizes its pillars for the long term. This approach is designed to create durable value from the ground up. To learn more about investing in are being involved in the real assets shaping a sustainable future. You can visit the Greenman Group's website at thegreenman.group. Hello and welcome to Patipar Delighted to be joined this week by Lisa and Shane Coleman.

4:26Later we're also going to be talking about the new biography of Formatishek Brian Kahn, which has been written by Gary Murphy. Gary is a guest on the subscriber edition of Patipar, which will be available from Sunday talking about that book, but we will actually play a little brief extract from it and have a discussion with Lisa and Shane about that as well during this edition of Patipar. We're also going to be talking about the Arden football team playing against Israel in the very near future now and that's developing as a political story. I think on the back of what's happened with Ed Sheeran this week as well. We'll be talking about the assault on Michael Haley Ray and the dangers for politicians and we'll also be talking about Metrolink, which seems to be accelerating finally towards the start of its construction. But we're going to start with last weekend's story, Donald Trump coming to Ireland and having a rare old time between Dublin and Dune Beg. But there were a few laughs, I think, to be heard out of it. Hollow laughs, perhaps.

5:28And where I laughed was, well, a couple of things, when he went for the United Ireland line, which nobody had expected. And this was, I laughed at the idea, there's Sinn Fein outside the Phoenix Park protesting about the arrival of Donald Trump dreadful man as he is. And then suddenly, oh, he's actually come out in favor of the thing that is most important to us. It wasn't just it was. It was completely ironic. And you know, it should be noted that there was a, you know, a noticeable delay in Sinn Fein kind of reacting to us. It was sort of, you know, we we know the ocean first before they kind of got the rack together. I mean, everybody was on the back, thought over that. And I thought it was interesting. I think it might have been, if we wouldn't have sunbed our papers, might have been the male on Sunday, who were explaining that Trump had actually brought this up with Catherine Connelly. It was the Irish man on Sunday. It was the Irish man on Sunday. But I thought the word he used was really interesting because he

6:29asked to rebuke, quote unquote, the merger. So quite everything in his time. So quite obviously they got out the chalkboards and they kind of said, okay, this country over here, that's, you know, did a hostile takeover of that country over there, like 800 years ago. Probably actually budget in those terms because I thought it was the matters were to use. So this obviously fired up his newfound interest in Irish reunification. I mean, the gags are obviously going around. I mean, Claire Hannah, the SDLP leader came out with the cracking line about him, Lapping his orange as he looks, he looks, and then the meme is going around to Trump at his podium with the black balacav, I'm going, who knew he was that kind of Republican. So it did, you know, the reaction was of course, we're instant for me, and the Q outrage among the DUP, Q, what I believe was silent outrage in government buildings. They just could not believe he did. Sorry, that was the second bit that I thought was funny, it was when he turned on him,

7:31essentially, told me, hot Martin, you're the man to get it done. When the last thing me on Martin seems to want at the moment is to accelerate towards the United Ireland. Exactly, exactly. And you know, like getting endorsements from Donald Trump, it's like getting, you know, the, you know, the confidence of the dressing room isn't as really. It's, you know, it's not, it's not really what you want. So I mean, yeah, I just, just like you, Matt, there was moments of that, I just put my head in my hands and, you know, at that moment when he, when he announced, you know, taking the tariff off Irish whiskey, and I mean, he's such a maniacal narcissist that he couldn't even allow Shane Lowry, his few minutes of glory, he had to button on that, and then the crowd all, you know, start cheering. But I mean, lads, it was him to put the bloody tariff on in the first place. So, you know, he'd basically saying I'm taking off the tariff. And the terrorists exist on all the other exports we have beyond whiskey. Yeah. And I mean, look, the whole, it was all about Chobis. That sort of fly over by the Katari force one over the thing. Surprise, it didn't shock a few toilet rolls out,

8:31you know, the window and he like fan of the natives before he landed. I mean, the whole thing was just absolute Chobis. Yeah, I mean, it was, but doesn't it show the importance of always being in intent, as opposed to being outside the tent. I mean, look, Chobis and a polling figure, he's a device of he is few redeeming features, but he is the president. No more redeeming feature. Yeah, sorry, he's no redeeming features. You're right. But he is the president of the United States. He wields enormous power. We saw that, we saw that in terms of the tariffs. We saw it even in terms of the comments on on Northern Ireland, which we obviously talk about a bit more in detail. But you need to talk to him. You need to, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a bit on the themely at times. It's cringy. It's awkward, but you do need to talk to the man and you need to play awesome. And that was a success. Well, regardless of what way you look at us last weekend was a success for, for me, Hall Martin. And I think Sinn Fein need to reconsider this thing of being

9:35outside the tent. I think most Irish people actually get that. I think they abhor Trump, but I think they get the pragmatic politics. It's a custom colony. It was the absolute example of that. I'm fair play to it. No, first she, she, you know what? She did her, she got her couple of little digs in, you know, with the, with the poem she gave him and all that. But St Bridges Cross, St Bridges Cross, yeah, you know, the painter, the mother of Ireland, just can't complete the, her head completely. Oh, that was for the whole, she was playing to the home crowd on that one, but she did, she did her job. Yeah. But you're, and Shane, you're right about the whole thing about been inside the tent. I mean, you could probably argue that how Sinn Fein actually entered up inside any tent at all was courtesy, probably, of Bill Clinton, when he issued the visa back in 1994 for Jerry Adams to travel to the States, which really set in motion, you know, a string of events because I think there's some people inside Sinn Fein, you know, have talked about how it brought about this change because they could see what it was like to be inside the tent with the power rather than said the tent is chucking rock satters and how

10:40the real business is done when you are in there. So, um, yeah, so Shane is right, you know, you do have to be inside the tent, but you see, the trouble is like the tent is a circus, is a circus marquee because you've never, and you have no idea about the, you know, the chief plan is, and there's no safety net. It's down there, no safety, and you're there juggling knives and, you know, bottles and everything. So it was a circus and we were part of the performance as well as been the audience for it, but it did strike me, you know, one of the funny lines as well when he came about the Irishman vicious bastards. Yeah. And, you know, that was clearly meant as a compliment, you know, rather than a criticism. Yeah. But it did strike me, I mean, there's other ways you could describe this as well. And you could say that we were deceptive bastards and devious bastards in the way that we actually plumbostom while at the same time behind his back going, what an Egypt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, but you're completely right. But what is the alternative to playing that game? I don't see an alternative. We are so dependent on the US for

11:43our economic model for our taxes. I'm sorry, that we've made our bed. We have to lie in this. There was also a letter to one of the newspapers, which I thought was actually telling as well, making the points that a lot of these people, but he has supporters in Ireland, you know, there are some people who like them and stuff. And I think if you did a van diagram, they'd probably cross over with the protesters about the price of fuel that went out earlier in the year. They might. Yeah. Yeah. I think they might. And you'd also then wonder, well, why weren't these people protesting down in Dubegga Dublin? Because he's the one who's responsible for the price of fuel or present. I know you can argue, well, it's the government taxes and all the rest, but this government taxes on elevated price of fuel because of Trump's idiotic as well as immoral attack on Iran. Yeah. Couldn't agree to more. Couldn't agree to more. And you know, while and in January, there was massively amusing sort of sides to this and all this. I mean,

12:45the last time that he was down in Dubegga, I covered that trip, I wasn't on this one. But I have to say, I probably the questions that I would have thrown at him. And I think it's the big on answer question. And I think it's the one that will stain his legacy forever is when are they going to apologize for bombing the bombing of Minab, the school in Minab? 140 schoolgirls. There was 120 schoolgirls, 156 people. It was a without a doubt it was a US Tomahawk. You you and report into it has just been published to say that, you know, that the evidence is pointing towards it was a US action. And there's never been acknowledged by the they never apologize for Trump doesn't apologize for getting things wrong. He doesn't admit to getting things wrong. So he can't admit to it. So he won't apologize to us for us. You would like to see I think that that's the classic failure of this. He thinks he just sees, power a strength and doesn't understand that you have to step up and apologize for things when

13:47you get things wrong as well. So while I probably like everybody else, I I rolled and I did laugh for times and you know, at the shenanigans down there, like that to me is the thing every time I look at him, I just literally see that. That's what I see every time I look at that man. I see that shadow of that that school bond and that really striking image of all the corpses lined up, you know, all the comments lined up. No, no, no sooner has he left the country, then we discover that he's selling about 2.4 billion worth of bombs to Israel. I mean, what they're going to do with these bombs as well when we get to Israel and little while, but this is just another example where Plumas and the guy for the reasons that you're explaining, then he goes back off and he does things like that. Yes, it's an uncomfortable position. Can I go back to the point you were making about the protesters, the fuel protesters? Yeah. Because the business post had a poll last weekend, a political poll, but one of the questions it asked was, would you support further fuel protests if the price of fuel continued to rise? 66 percent. Two-thirds of the electorate said they would.

14:54I have to say I saw that finding a way we're screwed as a nation because I mean, first of all, to go to the point you were making about who are they protesting against? Are they protesting against? Because the reason the price of fuel is going up is because of this crazy war in Iran, because of Donald Trump. So are they going up because the carbon tax is an excise in fact? I mean, that's what's not interesting with those days. That's what they were inevitably say. And then the next question is, okay, so the government has thrown 100 million euro a month to try and so do they double that? Do they treble it? Like how much? Because even on this podcast recently, we spoke about me on Martin talking about the two euro per liter price been breached. Yeah. And we were saying it was only last week, actually two euros a liter is probably going to be a floor rather than a ceiling. And they are standing in the mail reporting on Thursday that there is no expectation. 250 could be the price of a liter of diesel very, very soon. So do we keep subs? Does the state keep subs? And if so, what costs? I mean,

15:56the doll was recalled in early September over the price basically of a cup of coffee on a full fuel tank. That is some signal for the government to say like normally when the doll is recalled, I mean, you can remember the good, I mean, you were probably right in the bed at the time after the good men in Trinational crisis and the doll was recalled for that mask mask. I should make him a few very old. Sorry. Thanks for going back to 1990. Can I just say I was in college at the time? But when you say, like normally, that's a national crisis basically. And we recall the doll for the price of a cup of coffee. That sent out a signal from the government as they did in April that we will do whatever it takes to insulate you from a war. And that's a crazy situation for an for any economy to be trying to do. We're chasing, we're chasing a war basically. Well, yeah, I mean, it's just before we sort of leave the whole Trump thing. I mean, everything to do those politics isn't immeshed with a lot of the Trump things now. That's the trouble. I mean, economics by

16:58tariffs and so on. Rising costs, rising price of fuel, which feeds into cost of living. And now, of course, him deciding to put his foot into the whole reunification argument as well. And, you know, I know today, as probably as we're here, uh, mehall martin is traveling over to Manchester to meet Andy Burnham for two men who do not want to referendum in the North United Ireland. I know. I mean, it kind of like to be flying the wall of 10 or 10, 10, or 10 north, whatever they call it. I'm actually looked at the building. It's fairly unprepropessed pre-processing. I presume intentionally so. Oh, definitely. I mean, it's just a prosaic looking at working class, you know, nothing fancy here. No, no port of cosoness ice, you know, and so it's sort of, it's a very up north kind of building. And what do you know, they will have them, you know, because obviously, uh, mehall martin was hosting Trump last week. And then of course, Andy Burnham was hosting Mark Carney and Mark Roto, the next week's Secretary General last few days. So they'll have a lot to talk about. But they are

18:00two men who do not want to have to, to deal with the issue that Trump has literally loved like, you know, a scooge onto the, you know, on the table. Just sat there when he was been, uh, suggested to him by Trump that he was the man to lead the merger. But then on Monday, we had Shunfain meeting with the leaders of the nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales, not in their capacity as leaders of the devolved governments, but in the capacity of leaders of the particular parties, pushing again very much for this thing, the breakup of the union. And mehall martin, don't know the prime championships and choose the, I think accused uh, Shunfain of Ramesh, wasn't that right. He was right. He was right. He was complete. I could not. It's the stupidest strategy. It's a daft strategy. What's wrong with us? Why are you fighting a war on tree fronts? Fight a war on one front? Like there is absolutely zero. Deviding conquer. No, no, no, not

19:01so strong. For a civilish government to have to deal on tree fronts rather than just one. To see it, there is zero chance of a of Wales, uh, uh, parting from the UK at any chance. I can't afford to. It's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, no, it's not even. It's just overwhelming for Brexit. It's not, yeah, it's not. We're called for support for Scotland is a different case. Maybe that will happen at some point in the future. I'm, I'm not convinced. I had a referendum already. 2014, wasn't, uh, Shunfain should be focusing on United Ireland, not breaking up a union as in the United Kingdom. That, like the, the irony is, if there was a referendum on a United Ireland in England, it would be passed overwhelmingly, absolutely overwhelming. Can we, can we say the same bad Ireland? No, we, can't, why are we making England the enemy? Besides, that's not for reform of commos. Much to people's reform. I mean, they, they, they're a busted flow so already. Yeah, I do, I do, I think, I'm sorry, if we're playing the politics of reform, well, then we really aren't,

20:01no, but they want to defend Northern Ireland, defend the EU. Britain is not the obstacle to a United Ireland. Britain, the unionism is the obstacle to United Ireland. And going off and dallying with the Scots and the world's nationalists is going to do nothing to do. It's a DAF strategy and we heard Martin was right about that. Yeah, I mean, I think change about the poll because I think if, um, I mean, if you think the population of Northern Ireland is 1.9 or something, I think it represents 3% of the population in whole of Great Britain, UK. So and yes, it's costing what 10 billion or whatever the hell it is to actually keep the place running. Of course, the, you know, I would imagine a poll over there would say, yeah, we should have them let say, give Ireland back to the Irish. Give Ireland back to the Irish and let them pay for it. So, you know, it's, and Shane is also, I actually think he's correct as well. There's a big difference between what say, well, the first minutes of the Wales and Scotland are looking for, which is breaking away essentially looking for a succession, whereas reunification is

21:05reunification. It's that Northern Ireland comes in to the, it comes into the public. It's from the Union first. Yeah, but it's got a home to go to. So to speak, if you know what I mean, it actually has a home to go to, it's, it's reintegration. But I think the two lads today are going to have to sort of open the bottle of 10-year-old Gemmy. That's probably going to be under the oxtail of Beehaw Martin. It seems up today and they are going to have to start. Tara free. Tara free. Exactly. But they are going to have to start that conversation. And I understand from Beehaw Martin is coming from a shared island initiative that he wants to build slowly. But two things do strike me in relation to that. One, Leo Veradkurs sitting in this studio a few weeks ago when he was here with Connor Murphy, Shunfain, making the point that these things can actually happen very, very quickly. I mean, Germany is the example of that. You know, reintegration took place in less than a year from when it was first rooted after the fall of the Berlin Wall. And sometimes events and momentum suddenly develops out and over. So that's one thing.

22:05The second thing was Paul Howard actually was that when we did the Sparebottes book and when we did the special part to power podcast, that there are more immigrants now living on the island of Ireland and there are unionists, which is an extraordinary statistic. It is. It is Matt. But I know really over Radkurs coming from, but Germany is a very different case. You did not have a big chunk of the East German population who hated, who mistrusted West Germany. You just did not have that. Most people in East Germany wanted to be part of the Germany. Like Beehaw Martin gets a lot of flak for, and I think you're right to say you understand where he's coming from. He gets a lot of flak for the share of the island of the nation of he's the old. I would argue he's the only political leader in the state over the last five years that actually has a strategy. You can disagree with that strategy. I mean, Harris will have one in November. Yeah, he will. He will. And where is that going to be? I mean, that's right. Mary Lume McDonald has a strategy. The most important thing for her beyond housing, beyond the class living, beyond immigration. Her key thing is the United

23:05Arts. That's not a strategy, though. That's a goal. And where's the strategy to bring us to? She's been trying to get the other political parties to engage in it. But can't you have a reference for a reference? The referendum is not the best way to end this. My big fear about all this and look, I think me, Holmartner shared it on the nation. I think events have overtaken us. I think there's no doubt about that. I mean, when you get a van a Batchic describing herself as where what was a, a Conley-Eyes Republican? I mean, a van a Batchic of all people saying that, then you know, oh my god. What does that mean? You see, I think there's people who are well versed in history, you know. But again, is this show a little bit of a knelt-to-touch? The fast-matcher, 99% of people are going to say, are Catherine Conley? Oh my god. Seriously. They're not going to understand the reference. I'm the reference. You go to a lot of those concerts now with James Conley. They all know who James Conley is. You get a lot of James Conley from the stage at these festivals. And you have Bohemians, actually. They're a big James Conley, and there's some balls as well. There is a bit of that, or I say. But I do what I worry about. Look, I'm someone who would love

24:10to see, and I learned in my lifetime, but the idea that you can press gang unionists into it. I mean, I think we're playing a dangerous game. Nationalists were pressed ganged into a six-county stage. And look, head out, work, death. Do we want to go back to it? I heard a counsellor from the North dismissing these kind of concerns saying war is over. We're never going back there. Can we be certain? You can't be certain. I think we need to tread carefully. And I think we need to make, I think we need to go down this road because it's in ever, it's coming. But I think we need to move cautiously and slowly. True. I think caution slow, but I think also provide clarity and certainty to a certain point as well. Yeah. Where you can, as in, agree maybe at this stage, today he could go into Andy Burnham and say, okay, when you said off the table, can you actually describe to me what, what was your thinking behind that? Do you mean never? I don't think he did either. I think Andy Burnham just meant in the two years that I know I have as British from industry.

25:11Yes, but Matt, it's gone into the narrative now. That's it doesn't matter what he meant. This is now the kind of the sort of accepted belief that he meant off the table. So I think if you can get, you know, the T-shirt can get clarity on something like that. Like just explain what you meant. What you, how do you see a timeline play out? What are the conditions under which you think that that is, you know, a boarder pole would actually have a good chance of passing? How can we prepare for this in terms of discussing integration of various things? Who's going to put the bill? We'll be, guess, we'll, you will, you will, the European Union give us a dig out during the changeover. What would be the role for storm it afterwards? You know, I think how you start the conversation isn't by flag waving and standing there kind of going, we want the break of the, of the, of the, you know, the UK of Great Britain. You start the dialogue by the practicalities. I mean, that's always the way it's, it's, you take the steam out of it. You take the heat out by dealing with the nuts and bolts of it. So, me and Martin's fairly level head. He knows that

26:13Trump has landed him in the do-do. I mean, he knows this and he's, you know, he's literally metaphorically blown up the shared island initiative or given a root up the backside. And now, you know, it's, so it's saying you have to speed up. But Mary, you know, Mary Lou McDonne saying things to the T-shirt like you need to get your finger out, you know, which, you know, and get all with it. I mean, that's not really the sort of, you know, the language we're, is needed now. Okay, speaking Mary Lou McDonne, we have recorded already for this podcast for Sunday week, Shivon Fenton, who is our former press advisor, who has written a book about Insight, Sinn Fein over the five years running up to the general election in November 2024. And that's going to be available to subscribers on Sunday week. But this weekend, we have Gary Murphy, about his book on Brian Kahn. Brian Kahn, who has I wrote about it for the business post for this weekend, probably in history, the worst T-shirt we ever had. And I was one, can you think of a worse one?

27:21I don't, I don't, can I think of a worse one? Can you think of a T-shirt who'd, you resigned the bank guarantee? Who's a sad man? Who also left us with the triker taking over and I take it, I take a slightly different view on it. I think he was probably the worst minister for finance we ever had. Oh, believe me, I've said that as well. I actually think and I actually think that government, like that government was dropped out of office in 2011, not because it created the mess during the Catholic Targets, because it had to bring in all the cutbacks and all. I actually think the things they did between 2008 and 2011 were the right things to do. I think they were jobless of office for that reason, but I think also it was punishing the benefit of party, the benefit of party for all the things they had done during the good years as well. I think it was a disagree, but I know. Can I put a scenario to you? Let me just put one scenario to you and then sorry, if Finnegale had won that election in 2007, which they very nearly

28:23did. They same came so close, they laid the labor boat collapsed on them, yeah. I'm telling you, 2011, Finnefor would have roared back to power. They would have been more or back to power. I don't disagree with that. I really don't. So does that not suggest that they were punishing them for what they did to rescue the situation? I think it was boat. I think it was boat. I think there was, because if you look back at that time, it was very clear that a North-Alarth Apat happened. Some of us was, as actually Brian Kahn, if I remember used a memorable phrase, a confluence of events, I think it was around, you know, some of us was international pressure, you know, international forces, a lot of us homegrown. And the connections were made very much to where the genesis of this was. I mean, you know, you could argue that when the Rainbow Coalition left office, the left economy in decent shape before the first Bertie government came in. So you had a T-Shock that I think was, you know, a clever man, but I think that he was temperamentally not a good fish for the job of

29:27Commander-in-Chief T-Shock. I think that he had a weak cabinet. The drinks cabinet as if it was a... No, no, no, no, no, no, I think that's a valid statement. But, you know, so I think... I think we should say for the record, many people in that cabinet were not big drinkers. Absolutely. Absolutely. Actually, yeah, there was a dad of you as you used to call them choir boys, I think, you know, choir girls that wouldn't touch the drop. But, yeah, I think that we weren't well served with the government that we had. And I mean, I was very deeply... I was on the front line of all the coverage around that time. I was working out of Lentster House. So I really had an up close and personal look at how that whole... How the bank crisis started, how it unraveled, of a distinct memory in when the doll was going to recess in 2008 or 2009, the opposition pleading

30:33for them to stay in power or to stay in... You know, to stay sitting because it was quite clear that, you know, there was awful things coming down the tracks. And the government were like, oh, no, it would be grand. And I think that was literally where the construction industry suddenly disappeared. And there was a few years now when I got very scary and you were... You really felt like we were hurtling on a, you know, a long track on a train at a no breaks. There wasn't a great feeling that anybody was particularly in charge but was going on. And I have to say it, I remember of people saying to me when I was reporting at the time that they were actually felt a little bit of relief when the triker and the IMF came in. Well, I give you a couple of things. I have to say for those who are watching on YouTube, I'm actually wondering, do I need to stop the recording now because Shane has taken off his tracks at a job. He's wearing a bohemian's jersey, but it's got a sponsor's name right across. Which just happens to be that of a major drinks company. And these are things for us to protect. So you're going to have to fold your arms over the name.

31:36And they just have... Yeah, and you know what? I'm just going to top back on. I think this... And it just happens to be the drink that I actually, you know, I inhale on a regular basis. And I think it's... And I think Brian Cowns is well right. I'll tell you what, I just put my notes over for the whole thing. Okay, I think actually the point you make this is a really good one about, you know, how people were at the time. I think that's why. And in the podcast of Don Montgomery Murphy, we do discuss that length, the issue of Brian Cowns' use of alcohol. And he denies in the book that it was ever a problem while he was a minister or the T-Shook. And I have seen him on occasions drinking to excess during his time in politics. But we all, I saw that we were a lot of us were complicit and remaining quiet about it. But I think what was different about the art alone in October 2010 and the Morning Ireland interview the following morning was, it was a time of deep crisis. People were scared about whether they were going to be able to make their mortgage repayments,

32:40whether they were going to lose their job. But they saw all of the assumed wealth melting away on them. And here was the guy who was supposed to be leading them out of the mess on the piss. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared. He told Gary Murphy, he only had a gin and tonic and three pines. Well, for YouTube listeners can see Lisa's eyes widening the idea of that one. But the point is, even if it was only that and I suspect it was more, you know, he shouldn't have been in the bar at the three in the morning. That's not what people expect us at the time. No, I think that event, on the face of us, and on the other year when the economy wasn't, and the country wasn't in such a powerless state, that would have passed without any notice whatsoever. But as you rightly say, people were really scared and there was genuine fear in the streets. People were walking around their towns and their cities and seeing shuttles go down on shops. I remember covering things like the bank EGMs and people who, you know,

33:43sitting in the audience crying their eyes out because their pensions were gone up and smoke. There was a feeling really of great fear. And so when Brian Cown did that interview, did sound as they said afterwards, congested, quote, unquote, I think it tapped into people's, as you say, anger that here was somebody that really wasn't stepping up the mark, you know, when, where he should have. And if I, yeah, and it sort of, it unleashed that intense period of instability that followed the art alone. When the art alone wasn't just a one-stop event, a people were angry about and then it precipitated like an internal almost heave and against him. And it was Brian Lennon, the finance manager that saved him because he was seen as the man who could maybe take over the job and Lennon backed him at a public press conference to sort of calm that down. But then very quickly it all, all the talk started about the IMF coming in.

34:45Yeah, but sorry, I think that at that stage, people also realized that Brian Lennon wasn't in a condition where he could have taken over. And this is something I want to play a little bit of I came to the conclusion belatedly, I have to admit at the time I didn't think a true enough, but that the nature of Brian Lennon's illness, which was disclosed to Christmas 2009, that he was here, he had come down with pancreatic cancer, one of the more serious cancers with the lowest survival rates possible. And which requires a very, very difficult treatment and also leads to quite a lot of exhaustion and pain. And I think that at the time Brian Khan should have required Brian Lennon to step aside as Minister for Finance as somebody else should, and I've said this afterwards, Mary O'Rourke got very, very mad at me, the late Mary O'Rourke member, she came to me at an event where I was and she absolutely lit into me for having said this,

35:47I think it was in the TV documentary that she was made. For doing that, yeah. I stood my ground and first what I have to say for Mary O'Rourke was she did it and she got it off her chest and that was it. And then she moved on to Mary O'Rourke. So let's just hear a little bit of Gary Murphy on that particular point when I put it to him in this podcast. He did ask him, was he able to do the job? Brian Lennon said, he was able to do the job. And Brian Cohen said, I'm asking you, not just are you able to do the job, would you be sort of fully committed to it? He taught me he wasn't swayed by this argument that some people have that if he didn't continue as Minister for Finance, he would die very quickly because he would sort of lose the will or the drive. He taught me he certainly wasn't there. That wasn't a factor in his decision making. But I think to your fundamental point of discreditism, that the key shook at the time, drank a lot, put it like that. And the Minister for Finance

36:48was termed and leased at a time when you had an extraordinary sort of confluence of events where the state was at risk. State was at financial risk. And it wasn't just at financial risk. It was what I would call social risk simply because if the banks had run out of money, if we hadn't done the trachea deal, that there could have been severe social dislocation like there was in Greece, for instance. So I do think there is an issue there. And I think it was probably a mistake, certainly by Brian Cohen. He admitted many mistakes, but he won't admit that mistake. Okay. You're both looking pens of there. I'm sure what you're going to say. Well, yeah, I, I, now again, I'm relying on memory on this one. But I seem to recall the, around the time that he took over as T-Shock, he was interviewed by Brian Dobson on the sixth one. And I think Brian Dobson sort of obliquely sort of said, we know, will this new job mean you'll have

37:53to instigate lifestyle changes. I think might have been the phrase used, which is to Brian Cohen. Brian Cohen, which is sort of a euphemism obviously for, for, we were all dealing in euphemisms back then. We were, but also then do also recall that we are under the cush of massively strict liable laws and defamation laws. So there is that element as well. Yes. But I seem to recall that Brian Cohen's answer was, you know, I don't really see any great need to change the way that I, you know, I operate. I'm reasonably shocked by the question. Yes. And I think he was quite rattled by it. But I think that possibly a period of introspection might have done him no harm at all because you're taking on the job at the best of times. You've a thousand things on your desk. Nobody is denying that he was, you know, a clever, able man who could absorb information very quickly. And we knew he was quick on his feet, you know, when, when, you know, in the door and so on. But to take on the job and then take over the job

38:53at a time when the country is, was literally teetering on the brink. And let's not forget, when he took over, he embarked on this kind of a, you know, a victory lap around awfully as well. That he didn't went on. I covered that as well. And we should point off the back of a lorry down in Clara. Yep. And exactly. So I don't think that really is necessarily sent out, you know, the best message. And at that stage, we were already slipping into bad odor in the EU because that's, of course, one of the first things I think he had to deal with was the knocking down of the first Lisbon treaty, which was knocked down. So we were already starting to be bad Europeans. I was before we started doing things like bank guarantees and so on in the middle of the night. So I think from the word go, I don't actually think that he grasped that he had to be state, you know, take on a state's fund like demeanor, behave like a wartime leader as a time of the basically financial, you know, jeopardy. And I don't think he ever really got his head around that. I don't entirely disagree with that. I think Brian Kahn was always

39:58better as a number two, the number one. I'm not sure his characteristics, his personality suit would be in T-Shook. But I would go back to my earlier point. I think at least I'm relying on memory from a long time ago. And a lot of I think we've tried to almost block it because it was a such a traumatic time. And we, you know, I lost my job in the middle of all that Sunday Tribune closed. I mean, and, you know, I was one of maybe hundreds of thousands that happened at the time. But I go back to my earlier point. The problem wasn't what happened between 2008 and 2011. I agree. The problem was what happened before. And I would, and I, I noticed as it going to be, most people will not agree with me. I actually think the actions taken by the two governments between 2008 and 2014 or 2015, the fitting a and labor after. I think they essentially did the right things. We can quibble about the bank guarantee and should have been as extensive as it was. But we were never going to be able to burn bondholders. We had, despite what people said at the time and people talk about austerity and all that, we had to cut back on spending. Those

41:02decisions were made and they were the right decisions and they ultimately saved the economy. And yeah, we needed the bailout as well. But I actually, I don't look back at that government and say, they made loads of mistakes. I think the mistakes were well in advance of that. And I think Brian Lanham, my recollection, at the time, I think he did a decent job. That's fine. That's my recollection. I know not everyone agrees with that. Yeah, there were times when he wasn't there to do us for the very understandable reason that he was having treatment or that he was taking long naps in the office. And look, I think people liked Brian Lanham and they thought he was very brave and courageous to continue in the job while he was suffering from the illness. And I wouldn't take that away from him at all. But the reality was the situation was so serious and Gary put a well there as well. So you had a T-Shuck who, although he will deny it, was having an issue with alcohol use. And he didn't stop drinking when he was T-Shuck. And you had a minister for finance who was fighting

42:06a terminal illness, you know, surely. And I think Karlman probably didn't want to be seen to force Leonard and Brian Lanham. Well, he would have been quite a backlash if he had it. It would have been. Yeah. But I think it probably would have been the necessary action. Yeah, perhaps. Okay. Yeah. But I think he wanted to see it through. I mean, there was that that was that image of him. I don't know where it came up. Do you remember him? I think he was just going to going to in the airport, going to Brussels and just know outside. I don't know. I thought it was a metaphor. He said that he's looking at this disastrous. This is awful. Yeah. I think that that metaphor was stuck or that description always stuck with me as, you know, it was wintry in every single sense of the word, you know. But I stand by this, though, my absolutely. The decisions made that time and decisions made by the substance government saved the economy. And a lot of people in the media opposed those strongly opposed those things. The wrong thing to do. It wasn't a wrong thing. I think the thing about the bank guarantee will people will take still take sides on that. They some people think it's, you know, it was the right thing to do. Some people think it was the wrong. I think decisions made behind

43:09close doors. Have a listen to the book. You're quite a bit of the book as well, at least from your writing. Actually, I was there. I'm not cool. I don't know. You might be. You're dotted in. I'm called. Okay. We need to take a break. We're way past the time when we should take a break. And we've lots more to talk about such as the attack on Michael, Hilly Ray, and the Irish team playing football against Israel and Metro link all that to come when we come back after the break. Today's episode is brought to you by the Greenman Group. It's answering a critical question how to invest in the sustainable future in real tangible terms. It's answer lies in three areas. The energy transition, the places we live in shop and the future of our food supply. The Greenman Group's strategy is to own and operate the physical infrastructure in these sectors from solar energy generation and EV charging to agricultural projects and grocery anchored real estate.

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46:19Welcome back to part 2, Parish and Coleman. Least hand with me this week. Michael Healy Ray, serious incident. Now we have to be careful because we have to describe this for legal reasons as an alleged assault, although he was taken to hospital and he did receive stitches for injuries. Also reports about the individual who was arrested on Thursday evening and his family background. Middle-aged man, odd walk in the dog apparently identified because he had a highly distinctive dog. A case of the dog not being the man's best friend, isn't it? Indeed. Sorry. But I suppose a few things in relation to this. Michael Healy Ray has had people come to, there was a video last year of Danny getting abuse and temple bar from fans when he was going to a GAA game. It's not just the Healy Ray's, there's so many politicians. Shivon Fenton has written about McTretz, Demiri Lume, McDonald and our books. That was Shivon Fenton, yes, I felt, yeah.

47:27We, Michal Martin, somebody was arrested in trying to get to him at the plowing championships on Tuesday. His own constituency office in Korak has been dobed with racist graffiti. There's a whole range of stuff that has been going on. There have been so many women and politics over the years who've been taking abuse online. I think Jennifer Carlin McNeil brought complaints which led to pros. There's a long, long list, please. Yeah. Well, actually, even speaking of women, I was just looking at some notes here and like a study that was published a couple of months ago, I was conducted by women for election, their office and the task force for safe participation in public life and 96% of female politicians had suffered abuse online. 70% had received threatening or abuse of direct messages and social media and 35% said they had received demeaning or sexually connotated images. On the back of this, Michael Haley Ray's story,

48:27the independent just listed out some of the things that had happened. You had to government minister who sent anonymous letter telling them they would receive quote and quote, a bullet through the head. Various ministers, including Helen McIntee, had had hoax bomb threats called in their homes. Her self and her and Simon Eris have had to evacuate their homes and these are also politicians with small children. Exactly. Some have been, TDs and the senators have talked about how they've been followed repeatedly, blocked from leaving events threatened with violence and targeted online by damaging false claims about themselves and others. Another remade reported a Garde when graffiti said that said shoot a TD appeared in their hometown. Like the list, and that's only, you know, a bit of it. Like the list goes on and on and on to the extent that the independent is also reporting that I think it's 60 TDs and senators have received enhanced security measures in their homes. Now, there's a few points that I like to make about this. The first is

49:29when I was working as a political journalist, I spent a lot of time in, say, election campaigns or at events out on the hustings with particularly, say, you know, TDs and so on. The vast amount of the time, the interactions were absolutely and utterly normal. They were people coming up that might have a, you know, an ask or they might genuinely be upset about something and there would be a possibly lively, but, you know, in exchange of views, the TD would listen or the T-Shirt would listen and whatever and go about their merry way. And that's very much how Irish democracy works. It's very much grassroots, community-based people, I see their politicians out on the boat. You will, but I also have seen the nastier encounters as well. And that's because our TDs and our politicians are very much out there in the community and this sort of stuff happens. But there is a huge line between people who are come up and exercise their democratic paragotive to have, you know, talk to the public representatives about something that's worrying them or angering them and hurling dogs abuse, sending threatening letters be abuse of behavior.

50:35That is nothing to do with speaking paragotive democracy. That is absolute just tougary and abuse and there's nothing heroic about that. Um, I think the real worry is that at some point in the future, Matt, we are going to be talking about the, I mean, what happened, obviously, what happened to Michael Healey Ray was off not in any way under playing it, but that we're going to be talking about a politician who is really seriously injured or worse. I mean, we've seen in the UK, we had the case of Ann Witticum, not that long ago. We've had MPs who have been, Joe Cox, David Amar, yeah, and the real fear, something changed and going back to, I think we can probably date it from the crash and the anger and, well, you could also say the internet and social media, social media, social media is definitely an issue and, you know, because you see some stuff online and I'm sure you got it, your radio show in recent days, people started thinking totally unsympathetically. Good enough from, good enough from, I just cannot get my head around

51:37people who would say that I can't understand it. I just, I just, I just isn't a side. Lots of people then cause the issue with Michael's son, Councillor Jackie Healey Ray been of condemning it because he himself has a conviction for assault, which took place in Ken Merer back in 2017. But the point I made in relation to that is, well, actually, he was actually charged and properly convicted, and there was an appeal and the conviction was upheld and does not actually show the good thing about the way the law works in Ireland, in that even if you are a Councillor, even if the ear of the son of a prominent TD, it won't actually stop the due process going ahead. That's a very fair point. I would just make one at a point, I wonder if some of the dead to the nature, the coarsening of political debate. I think in the last 15 years, I think debate has become a lot more personalized. The language is a lot heavier. It's, people politicians going

52:38at each other in the dollar, a lot more, a lot of screaming and roaring. That's a good point. I'm shouting and I'm not sure that is helpful. No, that is actually a really good point. On the offender at Cian Corley, kind of going, look, Lads, you're on the television here, would you send her down? To Verona Murphy when she was being elected Cian Corley. Exactly. I mean, the mad scenes that broke out there and the aggression went. That wasn't an embarrassment. It wasn't. I mean, some of the languages, people have been called tossers in the door and so on. I'm not suggesting there's a direct link between those events, but I don't think it's helpful, I really don't. Okay, let's move on. And how unhelpful is it that the Irish football team is playing against Israel twice in the coming weeks? And I was surprised that every player made themselves available. The squad announced on Thursday for these two games and the games against Austria and Kosovo as well over this next three week period. And I suppose what brought it to attention again this week was when you see a yoga who is a support actor, the backing band for Ed Sheeran, decide into a band and

53:43Ed Sheeran's tour in support of Macklemore, who has been censored for his free Palestine comments. And when you also saw Aaron Rowe, I think, was the name of the support act, who showed tremendous courage, I think, and sort of backing out of that, given that it was a great opportunity for him. I'm sure a financial cost to him as well, a lot to go ahead. But when you see that happening and when you see Ireland yet again, not taking part in the Eurovision Song Contest next year and not showing it, you know, why would football be different? And Shane, I'm interested in Europe, particularly because you are, they're wearing your bohemian shirt. This is the other bohemian's tracksuit top. And I know you're off to watch the Bozen Daily Mount Park this evening. You'll have seen them by the time most people hear this. But you know what it's like amongst the Irish football base, particularly the League of Ireland base. Do you think has this been handled correctly? Because I thought initially just moving the match would be enough playing a behind closed or somewhere else, the home game. But given all the

54:47things that we have been learning more and more about Israel in recent weeks, and given the attention, which is now also correctly been focused on the West Bank, as well as Gaza, and all of the breach by Israel of UEFA's and FIFA's rules, if you just take it out of football level before you talk about genocide and forced deportation of people, why are we playing this country? We wouldn't play Russia, so why are we playing Israel? Because Russia were kicked out by UEFA and FIFA. And that's what should have happened with Israel. I mean, we know Israel have broken UEFA rules. They should have been tripped out. And the FAI took that case to UEFA and there's no interest in it. Look, I, maybe it's not a popular view, I do not see the benefit of Ireland not playing these games. I actually think it could backfire. I think if other countries were willing to partake in a boycott, I would support it absolutely. In a way that's never in other countries are now bringing in a sort of similar occupied territory's built to us. Yeah, I think there's

55:49absolutely, I think the strength and numbers, I really, really believe that. But if Ireland don't play Israel in these two games, Israel gets six points, it makes it a lot more likely that Israel will qualify for the finals. I don't see the benefit of Ireland taking this down. We lose both games. We may get other penalties. It will change nothing. You mentioned the Eurovision boycott. I mean, there was a lot of talk at the time when Ireland pulled out the Eurovision that all the loads of other countries would follow suit. It hasn't happened. And let's be honest. In a few have been to the same at the same time, but no one else has done it and it hasn't made any difference. So I think the FA were putting an impossible position on this. And their job is to do what's best for Irish football. I think if other countries were joining in absolutely, without that, personally, I don't see what the benefit of it is. Yeah, I mean, I think it's striking when you kind of look at things like press conference surrounding this. And you know, normally when

56:55the Ireland team are going into any kind of campaign, you know, it's upbeat and there's lots of sort of gated, and geology about it. Which is whatever. You're a good triparice on all those goals. Precisely. And now it's just so grim. It's just people say we have to get through this. You know, everybody from the members of the FII, the squad, people, you know, God, I feel very sorry for the players. I feel incredibly sorry for the players. I mean, the pressure on them. I mean, what have they were to lose both games three in the middle anyway? After all of this. I mean, well, that's that's the thing. And I, you know, I think the game to sound is going to be very grim. I think both sides would probably want to kick the living shot. I should be together for a start. So I think they could actually be dirty games. And also, let's now just go to be the issue of the handshake before I understand. Before I have the Easton manager is said that they're going to discuss this once they've got the Castlevole out of the way. But remember all the fuss that the Israelis' calls about the Irish women's basketball team, not shaking hands before a game. I think there's going to be that this was anti-Semitic and all the rest. I think there's going to be lots of that

57:57sort of that that kind of sort of side-ups going on before or site games going on before. And also just to add to the wrinkle, I mean, you know, the irony probably isn't lost on anyone that the second leg on October 4th is in Serbia. And of course, they're in absolute terrible odor at the moment because obviously for the finalist racist crap that they... Because back to, I mean, the funeral of Rack of Latak who is a convicted war criminal and their defense minister, Serbia's defense minister and Justice Minister were there, carried out the streets. And sorry, this also brings back 1999. Ireland didn't play a game against Serbia for those very reasons. I forgot about that. Because the government, the government stepped in and told the FAI not to play the game. And the government are not there. The game was played a few months later. It was. Yeah. I mean, the government are in Serbia. But that didn't stop the minutially saying no. We're not letting the Serbs come here. I still come back to the question, what will be gained by this? And I mean, there's going to be huge focus on handshakes and so on. I...

58:57I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that. I think the Austrian game now could be an issue because I suspect that there will be Irish fans who will protest at the Austria game. They might do the tennis ball things to protest the fact that Israel have been played in Hungary and that they will be played again in Serbia the following Sunday. I think that's potentially a flashpoint as well. Yeah. Yeah. But again, I don't understand the logic. I don't understand the protest at the Austria game. I really... I don't. And that's not to in any way downplay what is happening. What Israel have done is appalling. They should be booted out of international football. They have broken you a for rules. But boycotting this game or not playing this game will change nothing. Well, I mean, it is, you know, it just goes to show the... And I think it is the gathering strength of feeling. I mean, you look at sort of the three stories. You look at football, Irish football, the Eurovision and the Ed Sheeran controversy in the States. And there's, you know, they're all swirling around Gaza and the absolute and utter depredations that have gone on there.

1:00:02It's... This story has sort of grown and grown. I mean, you know... Do you think the Ed Sheeran story is different? Well, it's... I don't necessarily think it is that different. Well, it was... It's also about free speech. It's about... Yeah, but it's been hinged on free... I mean, the two words are, you know, essentially kind of, I suppose, tip this over where you're right. It is about free speech, but it's hinged on, Macklemore going free, Palestine and singing about Gaza. So, you know, the wellspring of this, but you are right, it's just completely about free speech. I mean, you have a situation where the stadium, where this particular concert took place, the Gillette Stadium in New Jersey is owned by Robert Kraft, who has paid... Absolute... Who has paid millions into APAC over the years, something, you know, he's a Benjamin Netanyahu who has called him the greatest friend Israel Kotab. He was one that literally pulled the plug on, you know, in systems, Macklemore dropped from... Ed Sheeran to get shots. Ed Sheeran totally sure to have told him to get shots. So, now,

1:01:03sorry, I'm standing by him. He's done nothing wrong. I'm standing by him. I mean, there are mates. It's not... I mean, you know, that's the point as well. And I saw, you know, one person put the point of view that, and I think it's a valid one, but kind of Ed Sheeran tried to do the cake sort of, you know, the... There's a cake is on there. So, he could maintain his so-called, quote-unquote neutral stance and let his pal take all the flak and kind of make it political. Well, what are us, you'd say, it was nothing to me. It was the promoter. I thought that was really... Oh, I mean, yeah, I am not complicit. I mean, that is... I know he's after trying a two million in to support and force craft has given two million towards Palestinian cause as well. Well, they said cause is in the region, which I think is very interesting. Yeah, I mean, you imagine where the money will end up going. You could imagine where the money ends up, but this is bad for him. And I think as somebody pointed out, he's going to be two... He's probably, his next tour will be in Europe where, you know, where its feelings are even more febrile on these... Ed Sheeran. Ed Sheeran, yeah. Well, depends on where in Europe he goes. Well, this is true too. A lot of them will support his friend No Mara Wat. Yeah. I just think I

1:02:07just wonder when would be the... As I said to Marion on Wednesdays, Pat De Par, you know, I wonder, will Ed Sheeran never appear at a flat island again? Well, I didn't know what though. I mean, I feel uncomfortable about that as well. I think Ed Sheeran got it wrong, but Ed Sheeran is not the enemy. No. Ed Sheeran is... And this kind of witch on against him now, that is in every going to follow. I'm not sure that's good idea. I'm not sure that's healthy and I'm uncomfortable at all at that. I think he got this wrong, spectacularly wrong, but he's not Israel. He's not the problem. So he'll survive this because, you know, it's not his fan base aren't necessarily massively politically motivated. They want to go and hear love songs and, you know, he's a pop act in a way. And I'm not denigrating saying, oh, people like Ed Sheeran have no political opinions, but he's not seen, you know, he's not in that sort of space where he goes out on stage, you know, swathed, you know, swathed in flags or whatever. And I think he tried to insulate himself from having to do that. And don't forget, this is a guy who, you know, has actually expressed

1:03:10political views, you know, he was anti-Brexit. Yeah, he was very critical, you know, he post-grandfell, Ukraine and so on. So to sort of step out of them, these waters, I'm not complicit. Yes, are you, you know, okay, listen one other thing I want to ask you about. It does seem that we are accelerating towards the beginning of the construction of Metrolink. And there are people giving out that it's going to cost up to 17 billion. A lot of people think it'll cost more and a lot of people believe it will take longer and they won't be ready in the decades time. And I think just get on with it because for who can remember how much the Lewis cost, who can remember how much the poor tunnel cost, you know, and if we didn't have those, we'd be completely not really shagged. I was in Japan in August and Jesus was brilliant now, I know the cities of Osaka and Tokyo are way much bigger, but my God, been able to travel around on the undergrounds that they

1:04:12are moving around freely. I mean, to be honest, if anything, I just think maybe the Metrolink we're putting in isn't ambitious enough. I would love to see loads of additional lines like we actually had been thinking of 25 years ago. Yeah, and I think bring it on. I think I talk to you with you. And I mean, you know, the in fairness, like the kind of Mike Flynn, who's the interim director, he more or less said now or never. There's, you know, there'd be no cheaper time and he's probably right there. He's definitely right. I mean, he's, you know, that longer, you're the longer the way that the cost are only going to take up. And yeah, I agree with you. I remember the chaos, you know, the madness around the city when they were building the Lewis. I mean, I, you know, fell into a few holes in the city center after dark, more than once. I mean, the place was, it was, you know, up in a heap, but the end result was fabulous. You know, and we have this great service, particularly since they actually joined it up, of course, that made a big difference. And this really is what we're talking about is joined up thinking. So get, you know, get the show in the

1:05:12road. They, you know, get it started. I know they put a team in place or an organization in place to oversee the project. And they keep on saying, this isn't children's hospital 2.0 because people will not get paid until it's operational, not just finished, but actually operational. So, you know, the cost will be set in and people won't get, you know, won't get their fair share on. I mean, obviously they're paying for some things up front. They would, but I can't imagine anyone would do it on the basis that they only got their payments in 10 years time. Yeah, but it's maybe it's like, you know, when you have some, it's like, you know, it's, they say it's going to transport something like 53, there's a 53 million people a year or something on us, which is a staggering number. So yeah, bring it on. Absolutely. I'm a little less convinced in you guys. I mean, on a personal level, I hope it goes ahead because my house is about 500 meters from one of the stops. So, I hope your house when the tunneling is going on, that your foundation, I'm not worried about that.

1:06:14I'm in the sweet spot. But I worry about the cost and inevitably when you're digging holes in the in the ground, I'd be amazed if it didn't end up being in the 20s. And I, what could you do with 20 billion? I mean, you could do a lot with 20 billion. You could build a lot of Lewis lines for 20 billion euros. But sorry, they won't be built for 15 years because there's no planning permissions in place. Yeah. Sorry, you know what? I would actually argue and I know you're going to look at me and you're going to roll your eyes. I'll be doing those Lewis lines as well as doing that. Well, I mean, look, I think there's absolutely essential investment. I mean, I'd like to we need a Lewis line to don't think if we're going to develop that here area that should be developed that we can maybe have what is a 30 or 40,000 homes there. So I agree with that. I am a little nervous, but the cost and do we have the population density? I mean, is it 20 or 30,000? Yeah, an hour each way. Do we have the population density to justify that? It's also it's one line. It's not going to be transformative. It just isn't going to be transformed. You don't have it. Yeah, look, I can see the argument. I'd love to see the cost benefit analysis.

1:07:18I'd love to see that in detail. Has it been done in detail? Oh, God, you see, this is the argument that will put it back in all the couple of years. But like we've been through the argument. I see. We have done the arguments. I just see that we should spend 20 billion euros when I do the cost benefit analysis. The cost benefit analysis has been done. Well, I haven't seen much detail. Oh, yeah, look, we went through this and countless times and it's been counts. I've been writing about it for 25 years. Yes. So, what about you, Chase? Two billion was the cost when I was first writing about it. Mitsu, the Japanese company offered to build this. Not only with a lot of them. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that. But these do not, we can't change what we haven't done. But the longer you put it, even the fact that the cost benefit analysis, the domain recent yours has actually increased the cost by the lengthings. Yeah, look, it's going to happen. It is going to happen. And you're probably right once it's built, you know, like the children's hospital, once it's open, no one's going to be talking about the cost of it. So maybe we should go

1:08:20ahead, but it's our whack-a-money. It is a big whack-a-money. Okay. We will leave it there. Did I mention that we have Gary Murphy on the Patipharas subscription edition podcast? I think you'd enjoy it. And as I said, Chavon Fenton, the following week, and of course, we have Marion McEwan. Every Wednesday as well, we're Patipharra, America. My thanks to Lee Sand and Shane Coleman for being with us and to my production team. So until the next time, for me, Matt Cooper. Thank you for being with us. Hey, it's Paige DeSorba from Gagley Squad, and this episode is supported by Rothies. The brand famous for chic, comfortable flats. My listeners know I love to start an outfit with the shoes, and there's nothing better than a great flat in the fall. Their timeless, they make everything look more polished and Rothies iconic pointed flat. The point has been

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