Apologetics & Spiritual Warfare

Hey, welcome everybody. Steve Kim here. Welcome to this week's edition of the AC podcast.

I'm playing host today. I'm here with my good friend Andy Steiger. How are you doing?

Good. Good. Good to be with you, man. Yeah, so we'll just jump right into it. We got a question,

a very interesting question I thought. Let me just read it for you guys and then we'll jump right

into it. This questioner asked, what does spiritual attacks or oppression look like for you guys?

Have you seen it? And what does apologetics say about this as opposed to other groups or approaches

to faith as in what makes apologetics different in this topic or does it even fall under a

politics at all? Okay, so it's a spicy topic, spiritual oppression or spiritual attacks. When you

see this question, what's your immediate reaction, Andy? You know what's interesting to me as I

saw this question is and I'm curious if you would agree with me, Steve, or if you had a similar

impression, but there was a while that I was under the impression and I mean this genuinely,

that I was under the impression that people in the area of apologetics almost had like an upper hand

on the issues of spiritual warfare and the schemes of the devil and people falling prey to

various issues such as adultery for example or or falling away from the faith or those sorts of

things that it was it was almost like a apologetics because it had to do with the mind and securing

one's you know beliefs that that was some sort of extra layer of protection. And honestly,

I kind of had that that view. Did you ever felt that way or had had a similar view? Not

necessarily. Maybe I had it I approached it a little bit differently I guess. I always understood

that there's a difference between what I know and how I live, but at the same time you know how

what I know can shape the way I live, but it doesn't always happen you know what I mean. So for

example, when we teach on evil and suffering, some students wonder like why are we doing this

because when we're actually suffering, if you're telling me Steve that when you're suffering,

what you know sometimes kind of goes out the window because the problem is here and not here,

why are we doing this? Well, the answer has typically been because when you're suffering,

you don't want to fight the battles on two fronts. This is hard enough, right?

Now those who can't see what Steve's doing is pointing to his head to his head.

Yes, to my head and heart. You don't want to fight the battles of both your mind and heart.

So if you know these things beforehand, you can focus on dealing with your your emotional side of

things. So I always kind of had some separation between the two. I mean, they're connected,

but they don't always go together. So I was always aware that, yeah, I may know some theology

behind spiritual attacks or oppression, but that doesn't mean that I'm not prone to it,

right? I could be just as much a target as anyone else. Yeah, so I would agree with you. I always

felt like I could be a target and I definitely would feel that. One thing that I've often said is

that you'll know that, you know, spiritual warfare is real when you're in ministry. And the way that

I would often kind of say that more pithy would say that you'll know you're doing ministry when

Satan cares about you, right? So if Satan doesn't care about you, clearly you're doing something wrong.

So in other words, if you're experiencing spiritual warfare, clearly then you're doing something

right. I think that's always interesting in our world. The Christianity is always picked on

and is persecuted. That to me actually is encouraging because I'm like, well, that's just a

sign that it's true. If it wasn't true, then that wouldn't be the case. It wouldn't be picked on it.

You wouldn't have that persecution. But Steve, let me be more specific of what I'm talking about.

When, for example, we had the whole scandal with Ravi Zacharias. And when all of that happened,

I think there are a lot of us, myself included, that would have thought, you know,

surely not somebody like Ravi that was so steeped in apologetics and had so many good reasons,

you know, that he could articulate for why you should place your trust in him. And then even those

apologists that were a part of his ministry, you know, there were, I think there are a lot of people

that are going, how of all people could you not see, right? That this was going on. So that's what I

meant when I was saying that there, I think in apologetics, there has been kind of this view that

people that have secured their mind, the faith of, you know, faith in their mind that there's

some sort of extra layer of protection there from from spiritual warfare. But that really showed

me. No, somebody's heart, their mind could be absolutely, you know, sharp as a sword, but yet

their heart could still lead them astray. That's really interesting the way you put it because

that actually reminds me of the guy that I've been studying recently, right? Frederick Nietzsche.

And one of the things that he was really good at was he would go after sort of the

pretensions of science, you know, we're objective. We have knowledge, that sort of thing. And what he

really tried to get at is what we know is often undergirded by what we want, right? And so he

was really kind of getting after that psychology of knowledge, if you will. And so I think if

nothing else, what that started really kind of revealing to people is that, yeah, what's actually

going on in your heart? And how are you justifying it with your mind kind of a thing? So even if you

know certain things like Ravi did, he could set that aside and live this double life so that it's

bifurcated, right? You say one thing, live another way. So yeah, I think there is a real danger,

knowledge often isn't the problem, right? It's how we live. That's the first problem. I think this

is one of the challenges that we face when we see people that don't live consistently with what

they with what they preach. For example, just recently, Philippiancy admitted to having an eight

year affair and you're like, man, of all people who wrote so eloquently on grace and the beauty

of the gospel, you know, even he, yes, even he could know those things to be true, but still

he could set that aside and follow the desires of his heart. So there's I think there's a couple

things that we can take away from this that's really important. First off, Peter says in his letter

in first Peter, he says that Satan is like a hungry lion, you know, looking for somebody to devour,

that spiritual warfare is real, that the demonic world is real, that persecution is real. And again,

like I said, anybody, if you don't believe those things are real, just start preaching about Jesus

and about the gospel and you'll quite quickly find out that the spiritual world is very,

very real. Yeah. But the question I, I can see from this believer then is, well, what roles

as apologetics play in, in this, you know, spiritual battle that, that we, that we find ourselves in,

to one of the things that I think is really important to appreciate about this discussion is what

Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter six with the armor of God. And I'm sure, you know, we've

all, anybody who's been to Sunday school has, you know, I'm sure created or cut, done a coloring

book of the, of the armor of God or cut out, you know, various aspects of, of things,

sports and helmets and yeah, like the helmet of truth and, and these sorts of things. But

isn't it interesting that what Paul saying is like, okay, in, in light of the spiritual warfare

that you and I live in, well, what then ought you to do to protect yourself from that spiritual battle

or to be prepared for that spiritual battle. And so he talks about things now. He's using armor,

right? But notice what he puts to each of those pieces of, of armor for battle, right? Well,

it's truth, righteousness, the, the gospel of peace, faith, salvation, and the, you know,

the word of God, the, the spirit, and he says, the word of God, if you just look at those,

I mean, apologetics has a lot to say about those things, about things like truth and faith and

salvation and, and the word of God and the like. So I would argue that apologetics has a lot to say

about the spiritual battle that you and I find ourselves in.

And one of the first things that we have to deal with as Christian apologists is just to go

back a few steps back because you mentioned it very briefly there. And I think we may need to

park on that just for a few minutes. Is it even real? Because we have to talk to people,

skeptics, where like, yeah, these things don't happen. And these are, for example, the story of

Jesus casting out a demon, right, from a boy who's been suffering from this for a long time.

A skeptic might say something like, well, that's just because people didn't know how these

diseases worked or syndromes or conditions worked. And they just try to explain it by way of,

you know, oh, this is demonic possession, those kinds of things. Our work goes in a couple different

directions. First is actually talking about whether this is even real. And you and I both

clearly believe, yeah, spiritual oppression is real. And there are even people that are not

Christians like Richard Gallagher, for example, board certified psychiatrist from New York, who will

tell you, yeah, I've seen demonic possessions, right? I've seen, I know the difference between

mental illness and demonic positions. And I've seen ones that are clearly demonic possession or

ones that I just can't even explain. So there are even voices outside of Christendom that will actually

say, yeah, these things happen. And if nothing else look across the world, every culture has some

understanding of spiritual possession, demonic oppression, those kinds of things. So as a skeptic,

you are then put in a really awkward position to say, everybody is ignorant, except the most

recent, right? Enlightenment, scientific, naturalist skeptics. That's a great point, Steve. And I

think again, apologetics can also can be a help in this, but it can also be a hindrance.

So it can be a help in that, again, we're talking about truth. So we want to know what is true. And as

you're saying, well, truth fundamentally, especially if we're going to talk about spiritual realities,

goes to the question of whether or not these are real realities or not, or are they a misunderstanding.

And I think that there's value to that, of course, because we want to apply our intellect and we

want to apply it reason. And we want to make sure that we're not seeing a demon behind every

bush sort of sort of thing, because there's some people that we, and many of us know those sorts of

people where they do see a demon behind every bush and everything has to do with spirituality.

But where you can see that this can easily go rise is you got these two extremes. On the one hand,

everything is spiritual. On the other hand, nothing is spiritual. And so I would argue that

apologetics, if anything, should help you then to be able to navigate or a balance between those two

where we can, that we can correctly understand. So apologetics then can help us to be able to

understand correctly with what we're, you know, what we're experiencing.

And I think, you know what, can I, can I give you a slightly different take on this? And I think

we're largely going to land in the same place. But I've been thinking about this as I

been mulling over this question. I thought to myself, maybe we don't spiritualize things enough.

And what I mean by that, though, is this when we look at the world, we often make this distinction

between what's natural and what's supernatural, right? So when we think of things like demons and

whatnot, and we think, oh, that's supernatural. God, angels, souls, those kinds of things. And then

you are physical bodies, our physical world, this desk that is in front of me, you know, all these

things are natural things. And I want, I thought to myself, do we really need to separate it that

way? And so I, when I look at, for example, somebody who is struggling with addiction to pornography,

let's say, there is a real spiritual warfare right there, right? You can explain it in terms of

chemical addiction and things like that that's going on in your brain, whatever you, you know,

you're looking for dopamine and what have you. I look at them, I go, do I call that natural or

do I call that supernatural? So, so I look at them, I go, their spiritual warfare, right? And maybe

we don't spiritualize things enough in that way. And we see what we consider to be ordinary

natural things. And I go, that's all there is to it. I'm like, no, I don't think so. I don't think

it's that simple. Well, Steve, I completely would agree with you. I, I think the distinction

between natural and supernatural, if you, if you really think about it, and we could do a whole

podcast on, on that topic, I would completely agree that we have this unhelpful distinction between

supernatural and natural. And that really, we just have the world, which maybe you could just say,

is a supernatural world. And so in that sense, I, I completely agree with you. And there's lots more

that we could talk about on, on that subject alone. Of course, this is the philosophers in us coming

out. We're going to define terms then. When we're talking about supernatural, we're talking about

the spiritual world. I would say that you're right that there is just a spiritual world. But the

question that is perforuses is everything we encounter, though, a demonic attack. And I would say,

yep. Yeah. And I think CS Lewis kind of issues that caution at the beginning of his book,

what was it, the screw tape letters, where he is, you know, using his imagination, you know, there's

this senior devil counseling, the junior devil, like mentoring him. Like this is how you tempt people

and all those kinds of things. At the beginning of the book, though, he issues this caution that,

you know, there are two types of people that make equal and opposite errors, one seeing no demons

behind the bush and those who see demons behind every bush. And I don't think it necessarily has

to be that way. And so I think it depends on what we mean by spiritual warfare and spiritual

attacks and oppression. Because for example, for me, coming from where I come from, I look at

North Korea a lot, not that I'm from North Korea, I'm from South Korea. But, you know, there's always

this tension, right? So I think a lot about North Korea. And I look at what's going on there.

So for example, if you have a Bible in your possession, I mean, that's death sentence for you,

right? So when I see something like that and I go, there's real spiritual oppression right there.

There's real spiritual warfare. There's a real spiritual attack, right? So I think in that way,

I guess I brought in the term spiritual to include all those things. Yeah, I mean, because I

guess, again, I would agree. I mean, we're living in a spiritual world. So everything is spiritual

in that sense. But one thing that I think can be kind of a helpful way of thinking about this

that maybe this listener would appreciate is first off, I would argue that Christians, those that

have God, spirit, indwelling us, you know, those that have come by faith through Jesus and have

relationship with God. And now our bodies are the temple of God, right? The God lives in us. I would

say that we cannot be possessed by demons and Satan. But I would say that we can be oppressed

by demons and Satan that spiritual world. That being the case then, it means that you and I have

to be careful, the proximity that we put ourselves into that spiritual battle. And if we were to use

your example, Steve, the proximity that you put yourself in to North Korea, or if you go into

North Korea, well, you're going to experience much more of that battle, that conflict than if you're

in South Korea, you know, or if you're in North America. And so one of the first things that I would

say then with regards to, okay, well, what, you know, in a practical way does apologetics play

in the spiritual, the spiritual battle? Well, I'd say, well, first off, we're looking at

things like truth. And we're saying, okay, well, what is truth and being grounded in that truth? And

and part of that truth is, is the importance of righteousness. And then, so then that leads me to

ask, well, am I doing things in such a way that I am putting myself into righteous situations

or into unrighteous situations? Because if I'm putting myself into unrighteous situations,

then I should not be surprised of the, the spiritual battle that I'm going to find myself in.

I'll meet you down there.

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You know, what I love about the way you are framing this is that

when we think about spiritual attacks and oppression, we often think of it in those episodes,

right? Maybe you have the movie, the exorcist come to mind, right? Something extreme like that.

And so we tend to have a kind of a narrow view of spiritual warfare. These, again, supernatural

manifestations, if you will. But what I love about the way you're framing this is this is a

worldview issue. You have to put this inside of a broader worldview. And as the questioner is

asking, you know, what does apologetics say about this as opposed to other groups or approaches

to faith or is this even part of apologetics? I mean, you already mentioned, yeah, it is absolutely

part of this. But why? Well, it's because a Christian apologetics is about the Christian worldview.

This is how we make sense of spiritual attacks, spiritual warfare and oppression. And so yeah,

it's how we make sense of the world. Exactly. And so really it's about what is a biblical theology

on this, right? Because that's what Christian apologists will use to make sense of all of this.

By the way, if we want to, if we want to just go down that rabbit trail just a little bit more,

I think it's fascinating, by the way, that the world in which we live in, by and large,

those that are not Christians, they won't talk about things like demonic beings or these,

you know, the spiritual realm or the like. But yet they do talk in moral categories.

And they would say that some things are wrong and some things are right. And that your righteousness

or your moral character matters. For example, I mean, how many people could we pick out in the news

from Jeffrey Epstein to many others that the culture condemns as these evil characters. But

you're like, well, why are they evil? Right? Well, it's because your moral character matters. And

as Christians, we're saying, yeah, your moral character does matter. And we are seeking after

righteousness. How do you do that? And we're acknowledging that we live in a world that is full

of temptation and that not all of those temptations are coming from you, but they can come from an

outside source. Yeah. Sometimes it is aided by the outside source. I remember watching this one

Bible project video and they were kind of explaining, you know, it was one of those overview

things, right? And I remember seeing this animation. It's a story of Cain and Abel. And of course,

Cain kills Abel. But what I saw was there is this kind of a demonic being, if you will. But what he

does is he doesn't push Cain to kill Abel. But what he does is here's a stone and Cain takes it

and then kills Abel. And that scene just kind of somehow really kind of seared itself in my mind

because I thought to myself, isn't that so true? Yeah, there are temptations all around,

but ultimately who's responsible for it? Did the devil make me do it or did the devil make me

do it or enable me or attempt me? And did I give into that, right? Or sometimes it's just

you know, a series of things that I've done that has finally caught up to me, right?

In very practical ways then, what I would say is from an apologetics perspective, we're looking at

this thing, you know, the spiritual warfare and we're seeking to understand that. But then

ultimately that this isn't just some sort of head knowledge, but that this works its way out

in the way that we live. So not just the worldview that we keep, but the way that we live within

the world such that if I then understand that if I put myself into areas of temptation,

I'm going to then encounter that temptation. I'm going to that that spiritual warfare is going to

become much more difficult. So so then that means that I can do things to remove myself to to

protect myself from that that oppression. And so let me just give a very practical example.

My wife and I, we buy internet that it's filtered at the source. So if you were to put pornography

into our browser, it's just going to give you a definition, but it's as though the internet doesn't

know what pornography is besides being able to define it for you. It's not going to be able to

take you to any of those websites or or show you any any pictures in the like. Just just think

about this. How much temptation then is there if that is the kind of internet that you've provided

for yourself versus if you have internet that you can go anywhere on the internet, right? If

if you can access pornography on the internet, well then that temptation is going to be much more

much stronger than if you've put a barrier for yourself that you can't do that. You know,

and you can think about these things in many other ways like for example my wife and I have various

other things that we've made a part of our 24 years of marriage to again to safeguard ourselves.

And here's I guess what I'm trying to get at Steve that there's some humility that has to come

from not only knowing what the truth is, but knowing that I need to realize that I'm susceptible

and need to follow, you know, to do things so that I am following that truth. Absolutely. And

just just on a slight tangent, I was just listening to our New Year's episode from the AC

podcast and you mentioned that you had this New Year's resolution once where you went for a

whole year without candy. Imagine, right? If there if you had bowls of candy just lying around,

I mean that would make this way more difficult. Yeah, it's going to make it way more challenging.

I mean those people who are on diets, right? You tend one of the first things you do is try to throw

away all those things you're trying not to eat instead of leaving them around the house. Yeah,

and I think what you're saying is spiritually that it's the same thing when we're tempted with

respect to sin or when we're trying to push towards righteousness, you know, those kinds of things.

We have to, in a sense, humble ourselves and try to create that environment around us and often

with the help of other people as well to do it together as a community and as a whole family.

Yeah, and not just, of course, with each other, but with God. One of the final pieces of that

armor that Paul talks about in Ephesians is prayer, that we are people that are in prayer, not only

in prayer obviously with God, but with each other, so that these things go in tandem. And I think

that's actually a really important piece, Steve. And if I, I would say I think as Protestants,

this is something that is a challenge for us. I think people in the Roman Catholic tradition

have a theology of confession is much more significant than it is for Protestants. Confession tends

to be much more personal between us and God. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. But there

is power in living life together and being honest with each other and being able to hold each other

accountable and to be able to, again, provide those boundaries that keep us from those unnecessary

spiritual tax because I don't want to say that it's not like you won't be spiritually attacked

because you put those boundaries in. But those boundaries are going to help significantly.

Absolutely. There's one other thing that I think that's important for us to talk about, Steve,

and particularly from an apologetics perspective that people need to be aware of when we're talking

about spiritual warfare. I would say that this is one of the more challenging or not only challenging,

but just evil ways that that spiritual warfare takes place. And that is that, and you see this

between Jesus and Peter, that Satan has moments where he's directly attacking Jesus. And Jesus is

in the wilderness and he's being just directly attacked by Satan. And there's other moments that

this happens where the demonic attack is just like full on in that regard. But I would actually say

the more challenging ones is when Satan is using other people like he subtle way. Yeah, very subtle

where he's using a friend against him and against us where I think that this is one more challenging

spiritual attacks. And this is why it's so important that we love one another and that we

that we're aware of of the spirit, the way that that spiritual attack can take place because

Satan can weaponize you against other people. Do you remember the first time you heard the gospel

that moment when someone spoke the good news of Jesus Christ into your life? Maybe it was a friend,

maybe a stranger, maybe your mom, whoever it was and whenever it happened, that moment shaped who

you are today. It's how you came to love Jesus and it's why you love people the way you do

because the God who created everything sent his son to die in your place. And then he sent someone

else to share that good news with you. And now it's your turn. Your turn to be that someone

for someone else. And we're here to help you step into that calling. Visit sharewordglobal.com

slash AC to find out. Absolutely, Satan can use other people against you. And we see this sort

of thing, for example, in places where missionaries go, they evangelize, somebody becomes a Christian,

then what's going to happen, right? Often the family is going to come against them because they

think following Jesus means they're not really they're turning their backs on the rest of the family

and their traditions and their cultures, right? This is one of the biggest challenges for say

Muslims, someone becomes a Christian, a Muslim becomes a Christian. And now when the family

finds out you could die, right? Or in a slightly more liberalized setting like in North America,

when a Muslim becomes a Christian, I mean, there's a lot of pressure from family. And really,

your family is not your enemy for the most part, right? These are the people that you grew up with,

they love you, you love them. And so it's really difficult to ignore their reactions and their

words. And yeah, and I think that's one of the ways in which the enemy can really take people

that we love and come against you. That's just one example, of course. Yeah, and that's a great

example. If people are wondering, by the way, when I'm talking about Peter and Jesus,

there was when Peter was trying to talk Jesus out of dying on the cross, yeah, being taking captive

and ultimately crucified. And Jesus says to him, he rebukes him and says, get behind me, Satan.

One of the things that I'm thinking of, Steve, and just a practical application of this is,

and we could still use Jesus as an example, Jesus never stopped seeing Peter. He never stopped loving

Peter, even though Peter was being used against him. And yeah, he has this harsh moment with him

and Peter would ultimately go on and deny Jesus, but Jesus actually recommissions him after the

resurrection. And I just bring that up because we've all had those moments where we've encountered

people that either inside the faith or outside the faith that can be incredibly hostile to truth.

And that this is an important moment for us to again realize that we're a part of something

much bigger and that more is going on behind the scenes than you can see. And that is a good

reminder for us that and going again back to Ephesians chapter six, that we have embraced a gospel

of peace. And that we want to make sure that we're seeing people correctly, that that truth is

taken root not only in our mind, but in our heart, that we are seeking to seeking peace. We're

seeking to love people because we've all heard it said, particularly in apologetics, where you win

an argument, but you lose the person. And that's what I'm trying to get at here, that there is a

spiritual battle going on there that we don't want to do that. It's not about winning the argument.

It's about caring for people and seeing them place their hope and trust, right? Finding salvation

in Jesus. And to do that, we need to make sure a that Satan's not using other people against us,

but also that Satan's not using us against other people.

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That's a really good way of looking at it too, right? Because we always

picture this scenario like between Jesus and Peter. And when we're talking about this issue,

we would like to put ourselves in the place of Jesus where my loved ones are coming against me.

But what if I am one of those people that, you know, the the demonic forces would love to just

use against other people that I love, right? What if I am being used as a tool in that regard

through my good intentions, perhaps? So we should be on guard and prayer together, always standing

together. That requires a lot of humility, Steve, to say, I might be in the wrong here. Yeah,

for sure. And I think that came up a few times already where we need to humble ourselves to say,

yeah, I am prone to temptation. I can be tempted as much as anybody else. So I gotta be careful,

right? So we have to create the kind of environment where I'm not even I'm as far away from

temptation as possible. But at the same time, I need to humble myself knowing that I might be

Peter in that scenario, right? Coming against other people that God loves. And so, yeah, I think

there's one thing that I know I'm taking away from this conversation with you, Andy, is, yeah,

what's a good way to defend against spiritual attacks and oppression, humility.

When you're so low, Satan is too prideful to come down that low with you where you are.

That's an interesting point, you know, Steve, that the Bible talks a lot about humility,

that God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. And that should be a real reminder

to each of us. Am I in need of humbling myself in this situation and making sure that

we're taking on a posture of a piece? But of course, that doesn't, doesn't mean don't misunderstand

that to mean that, oh, we're just some sort of pushovers, something like that. No, but it means

that we're not seeking to be weaponized by the enemy either. And I think if I could just end

with one thing as we close here, I think that this is why it's so important that we are rooted in

scripture in God's word. I find it fascinating, Steve, that Jesus is constantly quoting from

scripture throughout his ministry and that when he gets into this, you know, straight up battle with

Satan in the desert, what is it that is his tactic to engage with Satan is scripture. He quotes

scripture that he's been grounded in God's word. And may that be true of each of us that, again,

not only are we not putting ourselves into the enemy's territory to be over unnecessarily tempted,

but are we putting ourselves in God's territory? Are we surrounding ourselves in God's word

that we might be prepared for in those moments when we when we do experience spiritual attack and

that we can even see it? Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. Thanks, Andy,

for the conversation. And thank you, the questionnaire for sending in the very thoughtful question.

Thank you for joining us viewers and listeners for joining us for this week's episode of the AC

podcast. I hope this episode was really helpful to you. I know it's helpful to me. We'll come back

next week with more stuff to think about. Until then, you know the drill. Love God. Love people. Bye for now.