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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast.

My mom invited all the kids and grandkids for her birthday weekend a couple of years ago,

and she spent 95% of the time on her phone.

It was ridiculous.

Even when my dad was asleep in the guest room, I could hear his phone blasting videos

until it died.

My father is glued to Twitter.

This was a man who would physically unplug our desktop computer when we were kids because

we were spending too much time on it.

Now, I can barely get him to acknowledge me when I say something to him.

Those are comments from a thread on the Millennials subreddit, where people share one sentiment

that their parents are using their screens too much.

The number of Canadians, age 65 and older who have a smartphone has been steadily rising.

According to Statscan, it stood at just 13% in 2014.

Now recent estimates put the number closer to 70 or even 80%.

Sherry Bagnotto's phone use has led to a bit of a role reversal in her family.

Sherry is 67.

She's a mother of two.

When her kids were younger, it was Sherry, pastoring them to get off their devices.

Now they are the ones waiting on her, as she calls it, just a minute.

Phone in hand.

Sherry joins us in studio, along with her son, Matsura.

Good morning to you both.

Good morning.

Good morning.

You were laughing as we were listening to that.

Does it sound familiar?

I was.

It's pretty funny.

How often do you use your phone?

Walk me through kind of a typical day in terms of how the phone fits into your life.

Yeah.

I wake up in the morning and the first thing I do is I check my phone for messages.

And then I walk down and I make my breakfast and I check my phone again.

And then after breakfast, after I take the dog for a walk, I come back in and I'm on my

phone for the rest of the day.

For the rest of the day.

Pretty much.

What are you doing with the rest of the day on your phone if you don't want me asking?

That's a good question.

You know, I scroll.

I respond to messages.

I Google a lot.

And I'm constantly researching.

Researching.

You know, whatever interests me.

Okay.

And what are you scrolling on?

Are you unlike social media?

I'm on social media.

I have a hiking club which I respond to.

I take online courses.

So I take a painting course online and I Google everything.

I want to know everything because I have the time.

Do you forget those notifications at the end of the week saying, this is your screen time?

This is how much time you spent on your phone.

I max out all the time.

So what would that number be?

I have no idea because I'm not interested.

You don't even want to know.

I don't want to know.

Do you think it, I mean, I'm not judging you, but do you think your phone use is problematic?

Do you think you're on the phone too much?

Totally.

Totally.

You know, I sat down one day and I thought, okay, you know, I'm going to try and put my

phone away because I worked in communications and I had to post constantly, which I hated.

And now I find myself doing it all the time and I love it.

Now I try and consciously put it away, but I don't.

You're using it all day, so.

I am.

It's filling a gap.

How do you see this, Matt?

Do you think?

Oh, like half time, I'll have to wait like 20, 30 minutes and because you'll be like,

oh, just a minute.

And then I'll be dressed and ready to go somewhere and I have to wait on her and she'll

just be doom scrolling half the time.

Doom scrolling.

Yeah.

Do you feel like she's on the phone too much?

Many people do all sorts of things and they, you know, they might want to take the amount

of time that it takes to get out the door or what have you, but do you feel like she's

on the phone too much?

Oh, yeah, like I can't really say much though because I'm on my phone quite a bit too.

Okay.

Like I started collecting Pokemon recently.

So I'm constantly checking the value of cards and stuff like that.

But I can also just put my phone down and like watch TV, but like lately I've seen her

on her phone so much.

And it's just kind of like, even this morning, I was like, oh, we have to go and it took

her five minutes probably to put her phone down and get out the door.

What were you looking at this morning?

I had to check my messages.

Okay.

It's important stuff.

It is important stuff.

When your kids were younger, were there rules around phonies?

Absolutely.

Get outside.

Get outside.

Okay.

Absolutely.

How did you decide on those rules?

Why did you think that that was important to have rules like that?

I think being connected is so unhealthy.

And I think it's important and it causes great anxiety for people, which I don't agree

with.

But it doesn't cause me anxiety.

I told him and my other child to get outside, put their technology down and go outside.

Do you remember getting those lessons that that rules, you've got to put the phone down

and get outside?

Yeah, but also like the phones back then weren't the same.

Like I had a flip phone.

So like there wasn't really much internet and stuff to like use.

Not like this thing, which is just going to suck up your attention.

Exactly.

And I played a lot of sports growing up.

So like my internet use wasn't like too bad.

I was always outside playing ball hockey or like playing soccer and stuff like that.

So it wasn't as much as a problem for me growing up.

Have you had, you talked about waiting for your mom?

Have you had conversations around this?

Have you talked about?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Like we've had conversations about like how she's just scrolling and we have to go somewhere

and like we're never on time.

So except for today.

What are those conversations like, Sherry?

It's really happy.

It's a big sigh.

It's a happy conversation.

It's why are you doing that?

You know, we have to go.

Get off your phone.

It's not necessary.

The comment about not being necessary, I hear a lot.

And your response to that would be?

It is necessary.

You know, I feel like it fulfills a gap because I've stopped working.

And it's right now a stop gap.

And that's what I use it for.

It fills time.

And until I find that thing that's going to ultimately consume my energy, then perhaps

I'll stop using it as much.

I'm not sure.

Matt, do you think maybe your mom needs some rules?

For sure.

She could probably stop using it so much, but like I can't really say that much because

like I'll be lying in bed and just scrolling on Instagram or Facebook.

But I mean, the technology is there.

Is it fair to fault your mom for using the technology?

Not necessarily.

It allows her to stay connected.

Yeah.

It allows her to find the information that she said that she's going away.

So we got lucky because my cat actually knocked over a candle one time and my phone battery

was at 1%.

I was able to call my mom and get the code for the back door and be able to get inside

and put out the fire.

So like phones, like they have their phones saved the house in the cat bar, exactly.

Exactly.

I did.

So it has some value.

It did have value that day.

Do you ever feel, I mean, this is back to your, you know, directives to your kids.

You need to get outside and enjoy life.

Do you ever feel like you're missing out on anything by being on the phone so much?

You know, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point of view because it's an interesting time

of life where people who are not working now do a variety of different things and I watch

what they do.

And so far, I'm not pulled into what they do.

A lot of people go for happy hour between 4 and 7, for instance.

I don't drink.

I'm not a big drinker.

I will listen to music, but I'm not like so engaged, it doesn't pull me.

I'm waiting to find that thing that pulls me in.

And in the meantime, this connects you with other things.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It serves that purpose.

Do you think you could cut back on your phone news?

I mean, if you were to set a hard limit or say between X hour and X hour, I'm going to

put the phone in a drawer in another room, do you think you could do that?

Well, I could, I could if I really wanted to, but I don't want to, but you don't want

to.

I don't want to yet.

No.

There's no value in it for me to stop doing it because then I would have to fill my

day with something that doesn't resonate with me and doesn't have value for me.

What about you?

Do you think you could cut back on your phone news?

Oh, yeah.

Like, I can put my phone down and just kind of like not touch it.

Like, I'm not like addicted to my phone or anything like that.

Like, I don't have separation anxiety for my phone.

Like, some people do.

Like your mom?

Yeah.

Kind of.

Kind of.

Kind of addicted.

Kind of addicted if there is such a thing.

Kind of addicted.

Yeah.

You may not be alone according to the stats.

Yeah.

And I talk to a number of friends of mine and we're all in the same boat.

Everybody is fulfilling their day.

They're looking for, I think, meaning in that for this stage in life and it's different

and people are looking for things to do.

And you can find lots of things to do to keep yourself busy if that's your goal.

On your phone.

On your phone, absolutely.

Sure.

I good to talk to you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much.

And Matt, thank you.

You're welcome.

Sure.

I beg not to.

Is a 67-year-old in Toronto as you heard.

It spends a lot of time on her phone.

Matt Sierra is with 33-year-old son.

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Who's your favorite writer of all time?

If you could sit down and have dinner with them, what would you ask?

It might be tough to get a dinner date, but I can try to give you the next best thing.

I'm Mateo Roach.

On my podcast bookends, I sit down for honest conversations with some of today's literary

stars.

People like Zadie Smith, Ken Follett, RF Kwong and Louise Penny.

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with Mateo Roach wherever you get your podcasts.

Nicole Dalmer is an associate professor in the department of Health, Aging and Society

at McMaster University, also at the center of the studio, going to what do you make of

what you've just heard?

It reflects a lot of what my friends and colleagues are finding with their parents as well.

This may be with my normal everyday human hat on, but with my professor hat on.

For me, it's really revealing in a way.

It's revealing a lot of the stereotypes that we continue to hold about older adults engage

with technology.

What do we think is going on here?

Why?

I want to talk about those stereotypes.

Why are we seeing such an uptick in screen time in older adults right now?

I think there's a few factors at play here.

Number one, you know, the older adults quote unquote of today have been living with technologies

for quite some time.

They've worked with it.

They've worked with it.

They've played with it.

And so it's just a natural, I suppose, extension of the different technologies they

have been using in their work and now into their everyday lives.

I think we can't ignore the fact that our everyday life is shepherding us to use technology

as well.

And that's across the life course, the bank, the grocery store.

Keeping out any sort of government form, you have to use some sort of digital technology.

You can't do that often face to face with somebody.

You need to do it on the device.

That's correct as well.

And thirdly, I would say there's a lot of pressures to age well, age successfully.

And I think technologies are increasingly becoming a way that are helping folks to accomplish

that.

You just said that in quotation marks.

I did.

We want to have healthy blood pressure.

We want to keep our blood checker in check.

We want to have the right number of steps.

And what's accomplishing that?

A lot of the times it's our technologies, our smartphones, our smart watches.

And older adults are feeling that pressure to age well so that it can age at home for

as long as possible.

It was interesting.

Sherry was talking about how the time on her phone filled a gap in some ways.

You've hinted at this, but what do we know about how we're using this phrase older

adults, but how they are using their time online and spending their time online?

They are using it in a myriad of ways.

A lot of it is for staying in touch with folks, often with grandchildren who might be elsewhere

for playing games.

But it's also doing the things that all folks of all ages are doing, banking, checking

the weather.

Looking at Reels on Instagram.

That's right.

Facebook.

I've had some older adults that I've worked with.

They're making YouTube videos of their kinetic sculptures, GPS for fishing.

So they're using it for a variety of functions, both for family and relationships, but also

for pleasure and hobbies and just getting around.

And so we talk a lot about the impact of screen time on younger people.

We should be concerned about this.

This is ruling the came out of meta.

Of course for meta and YouTube saying that the technology is addictive and that could

harm young.

What about for older people?

Should we be concerned?

I mean, is there a so what to this if people are using the technology?

Should we be concerned about that?

My short answer is no in terms of being especially concerned about older adults.

I don't think older adults are in any more of a precarious or vulnerable position than

any other age group.

And yet we heard from Matt who is saying he's worried, right?

Is he worried that his mom is doom scrolling?

He's worried that, I mean, not just being late, but that she is not doing things that

she could be doing because she's just looking at the phone.

I'm wondering, you know, Sherry noted that she's in a time of transition.

She has more time.

She's probably at home a little bit more.

And so I can't help but wonder if Matt is just seeing her more at home on her device.

And Sherry's having the time to use her device.

We also see that this might not be the case with Sherry and Matt.

You know, as older adults age, they might downsize.

And that can also have them take up more technologies because they don't have the space

perhaps to keep all of their books.

So now everything's going to be on a Kindle or some sort of tablet as well.

So it's interesting when we think about the many different factors that can kind of be

foisting us to continue using technologies into later life.

Should we be concerned that perhaps older adults who are on their phones or whatever devices

a lot that they might be more vulnerable to misinformation.

Disinformation, we talk a lot about scams in this program and people didn't.

It's not just older adults, but people were getting sucked into scams online and what have you.

That if people are spending more time on their screens, that they could be more vulnerable

to those scams, they're specifically targeting them or that misinformation or disinformation

that's specifically targeting them.

That would be an area that I continue to have concerns about.

We know that older adults, as they currently are, the contemporary group of older adults,

are more likely to spread misinformation and they are the target of a number of scams.

I'm curious to see as incoming cohorts of older adults who perhaps have spent even more time

online have more nuance, perhaps digital literacy skills, whether that will hold the same.

There are benefits to screen time as well, but it's not all bad.

I think there are benefits, and again, it's interesting talking about it,

perhaps focused especially on older adults, but I think a lot of the benefits are ageless, I would say.

Being able, as Sherry said, to be able to research a particular kind of

facet of interest, to be able to stay in touch with family or friends across the globe,

I think just being able to take up hobbies as well, I think she was doing a hiking club

and other classes as well, so being able to take part in new areas of interest,

what an amazing gift.

And cognitive benefits as well, people talk about exercising your brain, and you can do that

through your Sudoku and a piece of paper, or you can do that online by playing whatever game

you might be playing. That's right. I am slightly hesitant sometimes because I think

we put a lot of credit on technology to keep us aging well and aging actively.

I also want to highlight the importance of also having in-person relationships as well.

I suppose to balance out kind of this brain activities and brain gym.

Let's remember to also have some connections in the real world as well.

You said there were stereotypes that perhaps a conversation like this might play into what

would those stereotypes be?

I think you only need to turn on a TV show, even Disney movies as well.

We see older adults being consistently framed as being kind of technophobic,

really resistant to change and resistant to integrating technologies into their everyday life.

And that's something that continues to hold in pop culture, I would say.

And even sometimes in the research that I'm reading.

You're involved in social gerontology, right?

That's right. I am that.

What is that?

So social gerontology is looking at how kind of the social world is impacting how we're aging.

So how relationships and how the conditions of our everyday world are really shaping

the degree to which we're able to age in the way that we want to age.

And so how should we think about that idea in the context of the technology that we are all

marinating in right now? I mean, it's everywhere. It doesn't matter how old you are.

It's a part of your life.

I think with kind of that social gerocap on, I would really encourage us to look at kind of this

notion of tech overuse, not as an individual problem.

There are a number of kind of broad or structural factors that are bringing us to this point.

And so it's not to blame, I suppose, the older adult, but to look at the various conditions

that have brought us to this time and to this very conversation.

How can people tell if their parents or grandparents are addicted to their screens,

not just using them a lot?

I would be looking for signs of neglecting self-care. So if we're talking about really worry

some addiction, I'd be looking for signs of neglect of self-care, neglecting relationships,

kind of withdrawing from elements if they're not able to use technology.

And if they're perhaps not telling the whole truth about how much technology they're using as well.

And how do you go about talking about that? I mean, Sherry talked about the conversation.

What did she say? It was a huffy conversation.

How do you talk about this in a way that doesn't play into those stereotypes

that we may have about older people in technology? And just actually lets you face to face as you

have a conversation. I think starting it off with, I mean, in many of these instances,

confrontation is not going to be helpful. And so approaching it in a really non-judgmental tone,

I overuse my phone, for example. I sometimes embarrassingly feel like I've lost a limb if I've left

my phone at home when I go for a walk. I don't want to admit it. But I think maybe even sharing

your own kind of perhaps struggles with technologies can be helpful. And doing almost a kind of

a co-engagement with your older family member talking about, oh, let's take a look at what you're

looking at and maybe trying to just see what they're looking at, how they're engaging with their

phone, what they're using it for, and whether there are some ways that some of their hobbies or

their interests that they're looking at online can be also complemented with some in-person activities

as well. And understanding that this isn't about them or at different, but all of us, right? We are

all using... We're beholden. I always was going to say trying to figure out how we're using this

technology, but we're also tied to the technology. Completely. Nicole, thank you very much.

Thanks so much, Matt. Nicole Dalmer is an associate professor in the Department of Health,

Aging, and Society at McMaster University. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is

Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash

podcasts.