Are half of teachers really planning to quit?: Points of View

0:00Welcome to TQ Talk Radio. Thank you for listening. Thanks for downloading this episode from Teachers Talk Radio. You can find the full schedule and listen back to all our shows at ttradio.org. Enjoy the podcast. Teachers have always played a vital role in shaping AQA qualifications. As assessment reform approaches, the questions being asked about the future of education matter more than ever and so do the voices helping to answer them. That's why AQA has launched the AQA Teacher Insight Program. Over the next 12 months, the programme will bring together teachers' views and experiences through research, engagement and AQA's partnership with Teacher TAP, building a comprehensive picture of classroom experience to help inform the future of qualifications, assessment and education. Such AQA assessment reform and have your say today.

1:03This show is brought to you in partnership with Hashtit Learning, publishers of professional development books and resources that support great teaching and learning in schools around the world. Level up your professional development today and visit Hashtitlearning.com to explore the full range of titles. Evening all, welcome along, welcome along, all welcome. Teachers taught radio and Monday night points of view. Burned out teachers urgently need better working hours and more support to stop them leaving the profession. We've never heard this one before. Have we? All the NJP? No. That was the result of the Lib Dem survey and association with the NEU and EASCL that came out last night, I think. And basically it was a thousand teachers, around a thousand teachers who have been surveyed nearly half of them said they were planning to quit the classroom in the next five years. Oli, you've been teaching for what? A year, two years now, three years? Three, three, PGCE, these two, so three.

2:05You know, are you going to make it? Are you going to make it today? Three. I'm taking this month to start on my third year, what I'm saying. Do you don't count your PGCE? No. You don't? I do. You're like PGCE was bloody hard, doesn't have the finale. I've picked this boy trying to make himself older when he's gone out with a guard at 13 in your actual age. 13 and a half, really? I'm 13 and a half. No, I'm nearly 14. Come on. You look at the pages. It's six weeks in a scope. Wow, come on. That's not six weeks in a scope. I was there for blooming ages. I was there for years. I was there for teaching practices. It's in the trenches, man. It was like so. Obviously, anyway, let's not get let's not get too diverted. All the I wanted to ask you, are you going to leave within your five years? You got two more years left to reach five. I'll I'll I'll still be going. I think I'll still be unless I become a substudy, Jay, which is likely. So, you know, there's there's there's what you sent chance.

3:07No, I'm I'm I'm in for the long run. I think I think I'm in for the whole. All right, fair play. When do we all go back? JP, when do you go back? I'm starting tomorrow in my first in set of two days in set. And then two days bootcamp with the kids are going to be not teaching what they're going to be getting drilled with all things discipline. The culture of the school homework sector, which is brilliant. I will ask for somebody who has only taught in one school. And there's about to take up a post in a new school. So I'm actually in a way I was getting nervous by going back, but double in a rep. I'm spec going back to a new school. And after the last couple of months of experiences have had as well. I will so test that say that it's not that I would want to teach leave teaching. But it was being driven out of education. Not because of my ability to teach because I spoke to the power.

4:07And so people don't like it when you stand up for yourself. Stand up to police. I'm sorry, Ron, I guess that we teach us we start we tell children to stand up for police. But when we start to do the very thing we teach the children. We get into the same kind of trouble, which seems to mirror the rest of life, doesn't it? Art imitation of life, but I would always love to be a teacher. I don't want to stop teaching. But I think many people are in my situation as well, where it's not that they. Teachings left them with they've left teaching in a sense because not that they want to, but they've been forced out. And I'm back tomorrow, but in sets, you know, I just want to get in the class. I just want to teach you know, just want to see see how you feel. You know, you want to get on the player match, you know, see see what you're teaching to get the get the rust off. Yeah, I'll preseason. You do feel, but he's in friendly. Your first week does feel rusty like you do feel all wild. I'll do a minute. I just need to get back into it and then you find your rhythm and get into it.

5:08Yeah, I am back. Well, the children in my school are back on Monday. We have had an extended start to the new year because we have a brand new school building, which was long overdue for the school that I'm currently in. Because we've been teaching in sort of port cabins for since I've been there just two years. So yeah, that's exciting. And it's it's a really nice building. I'll share some photos of this is it's it's impressive. It's really, really good. So that is it. That is exciting. That is an exciting because I do think you teach an environment. It does make a difference to how you teach. I really do. I really do. You know, it makes a difference to how the children feel when they come in the room. You know, if you if you've got plaster fall enough that walls and you've got water coming through the roof. And you've got crap all over the floor.

6:09And if you've got desks covered in graffiti. And if you've got, you know, technology that's all over the place and half of it doesn't work. And if you've got outdated kit everywhere. I mean, I'm not saying, you know, I mean, Jesus did a pretty good good job on a mountain, didn't he? So I'm not saying you need all the best, you know, surroundings in the world to be a good teacher. But I do think it makes a difference how the children feel when they're walking in. I first thing I did, I went down to new school, looked at the layout, got my own classroom. Not the most loved classroom. It makes a massive difference as well. It's a kind of home conference and the kind of what you're used to and your settle and where the paper is, where the stuff like that is. I'm not going to be important for you as well because it gives you a sense of your own space. I mean, I've done that before when I moved classrooms in my old school and then I shampooed the carpet, painted the walls. And in fact, I took my children normally in a 10 and 8 year old over so many summers to go into the classroom to reset a classroom.

7:10I've moved five classrooms in 22 years. So wherever you do time and go into a classroom, do like a paint, I do it myself. Me and the caretakers usually will go in because I'm not satisfied with this children go Monday, might ask. I subscribe to the broken window theory. Absolutely subscribe to broken window theory and you can tell when you walk into a room if somebody cares about the room. It cares about the classroom. All these laughing because his rooms are blooming disgrace. No, I know. No, you're saying that. I move into my third classroom in three years. I need to move. I'm moving classrooms again. And at least you get your if you had your own classroom. Yeah, I've had my own club, not for my PGC obviously, but for the first year. We know our important PGC is. Doesn't kind of pick that up. The issue that I have is they closed the block for some reason. They said, no, no staff are allowed to go back in the block until we start. So I haven't been able to go in there and like. Classroom. So I don't think I don't know it's a new bill with it's a new bill in there.

8:14I think they're installing stuff. So can I just say massive shout out to everybody tuning in so far. Do drop a like would you on the video wherever you're watching it. YouTube Facebook X. Drop a like. We have it. Yeah. We have started yet. No, I have to say something that's likeable. I really struggled with that 90% of the time, but I'm alright. What I did want to say though was I have not had my own classroom. Since I started in the school, I'm currently out and I will have. From next week, so that is a my like. It makes such a massive difference like the COVID days were just when I was I was teaching over in Liverpool at that time. I was probably you moved to where the kids were. There was just rubbish everywhere when you walked in. I had a full day. You had to be you still didn't have any leeway between lessons. So you were still expected to. You know, it wasn't like oh, we're going to ring one bell and then you've got an extra five minutes to get from wherever to wherever.

9:18Kids were already in there waiting for you when you walked in so that you then got to set up the technology in front of them. Get your PowerPoint going get whatever it is you need to hand out. Go in and you know and it's you're going to a different room. So you haven't got the seat and you know, you might not have the same seat in planning place and all that. Oh my god. So honestly, having your own room is a massive game changer and hats off to people who. You don't have that because I just think it's super difficult. Someone's commented. Arvin has commented. They've said. We moved from offices two times and last year I've been told we won't have any office. We will be in our teaching room. Not sure what you mean, Arvin. You'll have to explain it. You'll have to drop another comment. I moved with moved offices as well. I had a year that the head of years altogether with me. I've also I'm also moved to a new office as well. So I don't know why it's just I think it's all for different spaces and different. Like converting places into classrooms.

10:19I think there's now like a specific thing on off-stead where there has to be like a send hub. I believe on the on the off-stead thing. So I think we're trying to I think I think lots of schools are trying to make their send hubs. A bit more clear as well and a bit more obvious for off-stead inspections. Yeah, it's funny isn't it because I've taught in a lot of schools. Some schools are physically felt sick at the thought of doing another academic year physically sick. Other schools I've been genuinely pretty pretty. I wouldn't go as far as looking forward to it, but I would go as far as I like the job. And you know, I'm all right with this. I I sat pretty much with Ollie. I'm still do that. I get nervous, which is not usually normally me. I get not the kind of norms. The imposter syndrome kicks in and I have a posture syndrome sometimes but being a teacher in one during.

11:22I thought, well, how have I ended up as one of them? I don't get home with teachers. I don't like teachers. Teachers really am not one of them. It's like if I ended up as a police officer, probably be asking the question I had at and up as a police officer or I or a fire. Any of those professions I'd end up with send them. I would have him sent him ourselves. But the thing is, once I get into the classroom, and once I have a set of children for the me and once the door is closed, and the stage lights come on that's when I love teaching. And I think a lot of us are like that. A lot of us have to dread all. That's fine. And we sit there in the end set and we get BS bingo and you. Time. How long it takes. And you time. How long it takes before somebody goes. Here's the graph. the graph from last year's results in your heart goes, oh, here we go. And then you get the old word gets mentioned. And I have always had a bingo card of like how long did we get before I was mentioned. And everything's going swimmingly and you get the whole kind of like, welcome back. Bye bye. Hi, everybody. How's your holiday? You get the whole kind of like, I went here. There's a one-upmanship is a lot is electric. Teachers are terrible for it. You know,

12:26you're going to turn a reef. There's somebody that's going to a lavender reef and that's the oproom. There's always an elephant a reef for it. You know, there's a big, there is, isn't there? You're going to get it. You know, the lawns are a lot of ink good enough for these guys. You know, torque. Torque, when it's off, you know, scuba diving and going, I'm going, I'm going, like, yeah, I'm going to be all the day. And I'm like, well, I went too ironed. That's it. You know, you know, every stopper in this full of that, the people who come back, leave it and you get the, you get the somebody who's somehow, somehow is still on holiday, be it a wedding, be it a funeral, be it not. And you're going like, we're such a such today. And you're going, uh, crappy so and so it's somehow you also get you are absence worth of the kids. You also get people who come back and they just seem so chilled. Inside, I'm literally dying. I'm feeling so overwhelmed. It doesn't matter whether it's a good school or bad school. I'm like, I'm proper overwhelmed inside. I'm like, and I'm proper paranoid,

13:26and I'm proper like, and there's these people like, yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm really, that's all you, by the way. And I'm like, I'm hating you so much right now. Just float as I call them. Float as it's like, I'm smiling all the time. I'm in a laugh. It's like, no, this is supposed to be dread now. Not, I mean, I agree with what you said, though, JP. I mean, the teaching, the bit I dreaded was not the teaching. It was the intensity of the experience. That's the bit that I would trace. We're going back into the pressure cooking out guys. All right. You're not going to be able to take a breath for probably until Christmas. All right. So this is wherever I am. And you know what it's like. And I think once you know what it's like, you then this is what it could be like now. And you think of your, your darkest times of like, you know, driving in when it's dark, coming on when it's dark, doing it again and again and again. And before you know it, you're in that routine. Parents evenings are kicking in and, you know, and all that. That's right. I can

14:27deal with that. It's my heart sinks when the latest safeguarding or the latest initiative or the latest kind of technique or the latest. And you go, I think I'm not here this in 2014. Have I heard this one before? And he just goes round in circles. And yet it's delivered with such, we must do this. Surround. Nobody in education dies like a hospital who do not do some of these things. I really have to. They overdo it. What's really important? You must do this training. Why this deadline? Arriles. Don't don't don't you. I mean, I get reminders of going, you have not done this training. I'm like, which one? That one. I've got to take that. They are my of needless tick boxing. That is done in education for the sake of tick boxing. It's getting out of hand. And the corporation's spiel. The singing from them. She's, I mean, the corporation's spiel coming in. It's W-W-E-W-No chance. It's a choice. It's a choice. It's a choice. It's a choice. Should we touch me? Oh, yeah. Wish you would move the cold post and not ones. Let's do some

15:28blue sky thinking. All our order, absolutely crap that you hear coming in is coming into education. Somebody out there in SLT is delivering this stuff. We called last them. They spent the last two days. They spent the last two days coming up at the best part point in the world. They're communicating at the majority of the stuff. To as you say, the floaters, I've heard it all before. And it's only probably the parolees in the front row going like, yeah, I got this. I can do this. They were probably listening because the rest of us have chewed up our crop. All right. We don't chew. No, we're not in the office. You can defend yourself. But anyway, I'm so lucky with my school because they just, they let me. Oh, wait, Ollie. John's having a go. He's trying running a company, trying to be responsible for half a dozen employees, pathetic. Well, John, you know, sign up. If teaching is that easy, get over there. Yeah, get on that Department of

16:30Education website. Get yourself in there, mate. Get your ass in the class. And you think it's not easy. If you think it's pathetic, go on ahead. I worked in business. I find it easy because all I had to do was sing from the him. She pretend I was doing work. Send emails at six o'clock a night. But pretending I wasn't working. So with all due respect, there are people who are stealing a living pretending they're working from home in business. So I don't get the pretend to work from home in education. We work for a living. Yeah, we down well work for a living. And it is hard work. So no, I've all due respect for people in different professions, police officers, firemen, or the rest of it. But people who are working in business, I get that you don't have the job security. I'm sure he's probably going to say we get a pension. That's if you stay along and off good luck to that. And well, of course, we've got the 13 week holidays. No, we don't because we we stand up doing a lot of work during that. And again, if the perks of teaching are so fine, we're going to move on to ready for Jet Joe. We're going to move on to recruitment crisis. So you're finding your job really tough. The one that really winds me up. And this is from Facebook, Karen. Talk calls, right? If you hit a job that much, why don't you leave it? Fine,

17:35we'll all leave it. We'll all leave education. And you can down well start teaching your own children. Go on ahead. I mean, I've got two children on my own. And I can tell you, I can manage 30 children in the classroom better like I'll make you children. Most parents will tell you that. I mean, to be fair to JP to be fair to John, right? Yeah, I mean, we are teachers taught radio. So we are talking about teaching as teachers in teaching, right? So so we, you know, that's what we're going to do. Like we're not we're not sitting here saying, it's this is what's happening in this other job. Well, this is what's like, you know, we're teachers. So we're talking about teaching on teachers taught radio. So like, obviously, we're going to talk about the good sides and the bad sides, you know, so anyway, I'm just going to comment, John. No, the majority of teachers, what people have been standing majority of us have done jobs outside teaching and the majority of us will do jobs again outside teaching. The only reason it keeps me in teaching is not because I have the holidays or the pay or the pension, something else is because the job satisfaction. It is a tough tough gig, but it is a roller coaster. And I like the highs of the roller coaster.

18:37I'm just going to, I'm just going to go in. I just want to thank AQA for sponsoring us on TTR. So teachers have always played a vital role in shaping AQA qualifications. As assessment reform approaches, the questions being asked about the future of education matter more than ever. And so do the voices help into answer them. And that's why AQA has launched the teacher insight program. So over the next 12 months, the program will bring together teachers views and experiences through research, engagement and AQA's partnership with teacher tap, building a comprehensive picture of classroom experience to help inform the future of qualifications, assessment and education. And you can search AQA assessment reform and have your say today. We also have our fantastic supporters, Hashet learning. If you're looking for practical ideas to use in the classroom, Hashet learning as a huge range of trusted books and resources for teachers, school leaders and schools from evidence, informed teaching and behavior to curriculum assessment and leadership. The titles are written by some of the best known names in education and a full of strategies.

19:41You can put into practice straight away to browse their latest books, visit Hashet learning. Go on, do it because they're amazing. So thank you very much to AQA and Hashet learning. Arvin says every year for past two years, we've moved offices. Then this year, we're staying in our teaching room. It was a tedious process to move things around, but staying in a class is better, except less interaction between colleagues. The thing is right, interaction totally Arvin, the thing is with interaction with colleagues, my staff community I'm a part of at the moment is amazing. So we have great banter, we have great laughs, all the staff sort of together. There's a staff room, massive help. Some schools don't have them, but there's a staff room, there's, well, in the new school, there's a communal lunch area for staff. There's a cafe for staff. Right, the other thing, I tell you what I tell you what this school's done, which I think is

20:45really good. They've increased the time that we have a lunch. No. Yeah. What do you know? What we're, I'll eat other guests, how long the teachers in my school are going to get for lunch. I would say a strong 50 minutes more. You're not breaking the one hour, one more. You're not breaking one hour. 60 minutes. That is so close than the five. Now to be fair. To be fair, the teaching day. Hey, John's right. Right. Yeah. To be fair, the teacher, yeah, John's not right. To be fair, the teacher is not sorry, John. Calling you out on nice, just, you're not right. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Even if it's wrong. Of Arvin, right, he's got a point here because our teaching day, the lunch time is an hour, but now let me get this right. I think the first lesson, or I think maybe registration

21:51starts at, is it quarter to nine? And then our lessons run through till four. So that's where that time, that's where that time comes out. Breakers 20 minutes. That's generous. Yeah. Theson, but as I said, it's four o'clock. Most, most, most schools would finish it. I don't know. 315, 330. Yeah. Something. But I personally, I just think a long, a lunch time is a game changer. Staff can commune together. If you don't want to commune together, you've got a bit of time to get your head together before the afternoon lessons. It is interesting today. It's a game changer. Really, really, it makes such a difference. You can go right. Genoa, I've got half an hour to get my lunch. And I've still got half an hour then to go to the room, sort out the lessons for the afternoon, feel quite comfortable. Or if I'm all sorted, I can go to the staff room for half an hour. And I've got, there's also the unintended gains. And that was what the comments on our recent

22:57lunch points of year. And a lot of the comments, I generated a lot of comments, me criticizing the fact that children don't eat, don't have a culture about the, and that they generate a lot of traction, that they don't have the time. And it's interesting, I've noticed the creepage of how break times, lunch times have got less and less and less. Now, I know one of the reasons for this is quite simply this is stuff. Financial e-drama. Number of mythes, supervisors in schools is decreased. Staff are now doing lunch time duties. And therefore, if you want to call, you want to have less behavior problems, less supervised problems, then you have a shorter lunch because kids have less time to mess around and do get into trouble. And I know that was one of the deciding factors for our lunch time to be reduced. Was that less lunch time, less disruption. And weirdly, I think that's a point, a penny wise point for the list philosophy, because if the children have a better lunch time, they have more clubs in societies, they have more opportunities to do chill out themselves. And it goes back to what we were saying in our last points of view, about eating. They can go in and have time to eat or change the culture around eating. So I think

23:59a longer lunch time is one of those things is I think a well-being thing for the staff. And yet, you do schools do a fake well-being. I will do all this to get you a twilight so you can get off. And some schools do it well. But actually, I think the gains in a longer lunch time are something that could be looked into. But here's the financial cost. It comes at a financial cost. And the current budget cuts, if you extend lunch times, you need to supervise that. And if you need to supervise that, you have to admit their supervisors. And if you have to admit their supervisors, that comes with a cost. And schools are cutting budgets, and mid- their supervisors, and people of that nature, who aren't on big wages, let me tell you. They are on, you know, they're minimum wage people who live close, probably double over as sometimes lunch time supervisors, double-overs, cleaners, double-overs, other workers, accelerate workers in schools. And no, that was the case for years of a lot of my colleagues who were 25, 30 years plus mid- their supervisor, counting staff, a cleaner. They did a lot of jobs in schools like that. And they're the ones where I've seen no longer exist. Now you've got what I like to call is the FIC PCS, otherwise

25:03known as SLT and Hivis Jackets. Who started this? Why didn't I have whistles? Walkie-talkies and Hivis Jackets. What is going on with SLT? Walkie-Werr and with Hivis Jackets? I mean, seriously, I now need a Hivis jacket to be a teacher. So anybody out there, do I get a heart at half of this? Am I going to get some hope? Why is that an issue? The Hivis? I mean, I find a malaria. I know, am I digging the roads? Digging up the roads? What am I doing? I'm going to teach you. Why is it a required piece of teacher equipment now that we have a Hivis jacket, a two-way radio? Seriously, what are we? You know, we're going to have these earpiece, let's do it like, hold on, wait, wait, the president's coming in. We've got people walk around school with earpieces in, Hivis Jackets on. I mean, we're working for the cons, so I'm not doing the job. And yet we've got teachers doing that job now. I feel like a bar, I feel like sometimes it's more like, hey, you know, getting those dirty involved with those shoes. You go me out. I feel like a burn store sometimes in school. I want a teacher. There's been these people don't realize the criticize our job. Because that's the question, what is the job any longer when a Hivis

26:07jacket a two-way radio and an earpiece is needed to manage a school? I'm sure there's a reason for the Hivis Jackets. Visibility, visibility to, oh no, it's probably something like, I'm on duty. All of my lunch is really. So, I'm not in Hivis. I've got a whistle though. I've got, I've got like the Premier League, I've got the Premier League like Fox 40 whistle for those PE teachers that are absolutely, no, I might get the rugby one as well. I might switch up throughout days of the week. So it's, so sometimes I mean control the courts for football as well. And I've done VAR calls. I've got cards as well. I've sent kids off. I've given you the cards and red cards. Just for the sake of it, just give it up. Okay, be a mid-Enery. And also, he was a teacher. He was a head teacher. He hated Roy Key this well. And also, Ali, I said that your school's got the scanners as well. Yes, so that would be. So we'll have more in duties. We'll have like the

27:11scanners to check for phones. And for pouches to make sure that then in form time their pouches will be checked for their phones. How do these manners work? What exactly did they do? I think they're literally just metal detectors. And they're just to check. We just sort of airports, I think. I think the end of ones. So we're using for exams already, just like as a final check, if some silly pillie has brought their phone into the exam, do you've got that last minute? We'll hope to God so we could take it out before they get there. But we'll just use them on the gates from now on just to get them sorted. But I think we're talking about colleagues and I think it matters on the size of school. Now, my school's huge. I went to that school as a kid. So a lot of the teachers, I already know through them teaching me or like just, so I've got a huge advantage. I think it's really hard being in a bigger school and learning than trying to be a community in a school. I think a lot of people stick to their departments nine times out of ten, which is like, but which is boring. I couldn't do that. So I sort of have

28:14I sort of have my ADHD mind just ran about science. Everybody goes, always science that do that. I don't know why, but they are the science are always the kind of like problem child of school. You know what I mean? The left brainer then they just keep for themselves. I mean, science teachers are from probably getting mabeled for the most part. You think that the art teachers and the art teachers and music teachers will be the quirky ones. Actually, it's the scientists. They really are. I don't know that's the universal. We'll put that out there. Our science teachers universally, the odd boards of school, the ones that go in the room, the little department, how they don't. And of course, they've got the room that runs. You can't go into a science lab and they walk in sometimes with a cup of tea and they do a cover list that looks like it. You can't bring that cup of tea in here. I'm like, oh my god, I have offended the rules. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you do not eat in this lab and like, wow, it's barely a freaking classroom. What the god of lab? Lab. It's no freaking Tony Stark right in the corner doing bloody iron. That's a lab. This has got some chairs and a bunsen burner that maybe worked once in a while with taps that are,

29:15yeah, come on people. I love that when they go, oh, yes, go to the science lab. Anyways, so this survey. So this survey, right? So the lip dams have said, they've said they want these emergency, any other comments emergency things. One is fully funding teachers pay. So schools don't have to contribute anything into the pay award. The second thing they've said is pro, so they've said proper enforcement of teachers legally mandated working hours. So that's the one, two, six, five, isn't it? Yeah, right? They've said no, no, one, two, six, five is not mandatory. It's advisory. Okay. That's best practice.

30:15Okay. Not set and still one, two, six, five is a kind of, how do we say it? It's an advisory and that's where the unions would draw the line. That's the kind of red line where the unions draw. Well, I'm guessing that's what they're they're talking about there. The one, two, six, five, I presume. I assume so. Yeah. The end, they've also put the introduction of reasonable limits on overtime. And they've also said all schools to be required to introduce flexible working policies. Now, we'll go through each of these in turn. All right. The one I wanted to start with was the work in hours part. Right? Now, in England, the average contact hours of a full-time classroom teacher is how many hours? 90% of all time. Well, on average, I'm saying how many hours do you think

31:17a team training, the 20-second Ollie? 19 hours, 20 hours. So, is it 38? No, that's impossible. How many hours a week? 20? Can you see on average? Does it mean? No, I'll say 20 in a fortnight. No, in a week. Well, that was 19 then you were saying. Yeah, I'm saying 20. Okay, so it's actually 21 to 23 for a full-time on average, which actually makes probably make sense actually. I was actually the best of 2021. I was thinking 2021. Okay, so a little bit of research. And I already knew this, but I wanted to sort of confirm it to myself. So Singapore is 16.5 to 17.5 hours a week on average. Germany is 16.5 to 17 hours a week. Japan, 16.5 to 17 hours a week. Finland, 14.5 to 15.5 hours a week.

32:21You mean they're the highest performing education systems in the world you've just mentioned. Well, whatever way you want to look at it, the OECD average is 19. So even the OECD average is two hours under two to four hours under what a teacher in England. So for me, the contact time for me, and I've said this for probably 20 years, the thing for me, the pay thing is yes, it's a factor. And yes, it does need to be looked at. But the does need to be more of a focus on the contact time that teachers it now. The immediate response to that is, well, if you cut down the contact time, you need more staff. Okay, but taking Singapore as an example, now I don't know what you guys are

33:24going to think of this. And I get this parts controversial. What do you think their average class size is? 50 less than that. 40, they're more than 35 to 40. Yeah, but they have confusion is and they don't have the behavioral problems and they're probably having God little Germany doing the global deprivation. They're economics is a little bit different. They don't have well, you say how deprivation like we would have deprivation. So I think you have to be careful of comparing schools in the same way we compare teachers and everything. It's very, it's not even Finland, not even Finland has bigger class sizes. Okay, in different society, different value sets, but you say there's more deprivation in Finland. It's not just about deprivation, that's one factor. You talk about value of education, you talk about education systems, you talk about fact and Finland. Those things are valid. I just have to be here for your children in Finland go to school when they're seven. So they've been taught by their parents. Just on the deprivation thing though, when classes in Eastbrook have like 90 in them and behaviors better, obviously poverty and deprivation are

34:29away beyond anything that the UK could really compare to. How does that stuck? There is more than one factor that creates that deprivation as one. Then there is attitude. Then there is found I agree with that. My argument is that my argument is totally agree with that. My argument is though that my perception is that the value and attitudes to education is a much bigger determiner. With the whole human science, controlling 50 British people is a lot more difficult to control 50 people from Singapore. In fact, take controlling 50 French students, I think that would be the same. 50 American students might be the same. But in some cultures, my own culture included numbers might increase the numbers, but you're not going to have more issues because of the attitude, cultural capital of the children, the parent allowed to choose towards education support for education. Those five days I'm fairly hungry. Fairer teachers were respect. Yeah, they did those countries.

35:29So authority. Teacher are considered to be where are the word of God and Singapore I'm sure if you step out of line, that's a country where you spit in the street and you're getting kid. You get carcacorpal punishment for cheering and cheering them. I'm not perfect at starting the society. Whereas in this country, people just walk into the gregs and lift and food out of the cupboard and walk out of their way. It's like the rules don't exist any longer than sure. There are people watching me and I say, no, no, you're out dinosaur. When you let people do what they want, how do you? They're giving the people like me or Nazis and I'm actually left wing. So these people come in for my life a bit of rules. Otherwise, we're just living in the order of the fly. So the comparisons, you could look, education system, Victorian schools used to have bigger classes, didn't they? But you know, please, sir, can we have some more? So British education system has, you know, used to have bigger things. Anyway, I get the point. I mean, the point I was just, yeah, I'm not saying I would, I would die on that sort of, you know, on that thing. I'm just making the point that I, I sometimes struggle with the idea of poverty deprivation, equalling,

36:37equalling poor behavior or equalling sort of poor educational attitudes towards education. That's the, I sometimes struggle with it. I get that because of children who I've personally seen and experienced as a teacher who have exemplary attitudes towards education, both themselves and their families. And they have, as I keep saying, poverty and deprivation that would make, you know, the relative Western standards of poverty and deprivation sink down. And that's the only point of making an equally the behavior of some of the wealthiest people in the country, say, a former prime minister to the 14 parties. I would say that the House of Lords and the scandals in part of it would have been, yeah, not really. So that backs up my point. Well, for example, is it really good example of public education and wealthy people who behave themselves? We have so many examples of people, but the question I would say is consequences. When you have a social society which have a larger class size, it's have consequences to the

37:42right. We have literally lost consequences because tell me, and you say the word, no, we are not in your trouble. Yeah, and that's totally it. And that's why I'm saying that's that's the now we're getting into the why we're letting, we're letting hard and criminalize out the streets because we've not got enough money to keep them in. So now we're giving the signal to people, I tell you what, yeah, I do a serious crime. Maybe if you get caught, you don't get caught, maybe you get present, maybe you don't get, imagine the situation in school, I think that's her school, because we're at a situation where I can think you can fix the education system with funding. And that's the point you're trying to make. It's not just about the money, it's not just about the wages. And I know you've made that point and I do agree with you. And some of us would probably take a bad cut if our jobs were more supported. If society had the social contract back in place, if you look at all the people I know who are staying in education, they're done to three or four days a week with side hustles. They've stepped out of the classrooms, taken a step back. And equally, there might be people now who don't want to be SLT, don't want to be had teachers because they don't want to be having those responsibilities. There is so many people my age, my generation who

38:46stepped away from leadership roles. And you said, I can't do this, especially pastoral roles, because in the younger career, they were ambitious, they wanted to do this, they wanted to change the world, all of a sudden they realized, all this stuff that comes with it, they just want to go back and then look out, shouldn't teach. Just to say people before I'll be speaking, please drop a like, give us a share if you're enjoying our conversation. We're going to carry on this survey in a minute, it is interesting. But yeah, if you're watching along, thank you very much for everyone who's posted the comment. Thank you very much for everybody who's given us a like and a share, because it just helps us to grow TTR even more. Only what we're going to say. I think two things, I think the British public and their priorities when it comes to voting, then it comes to policy. I think education is not high up that list at the minute. That's why political parties don't run with education policy at the forefront of their manifestos, and you see sort of wish-washy ideas that are never brought into light or never are ideas that are really hard to get past the treasury. For example, when Oluci Palsch is trying to go back on

39:47the plan to university loans, but that's never going to happen because the treasury doesn't have the money to fund it in the first place. I think priorities, the British public's priorities aren't right now education and an improve in education. Without the mandate of the British people, I don't see much positive changes to education. I think this is sort of second. It's that I know I'm an outlier on this. I fully get it. But again, right, for me, there's an issue with values. There's an issue with responsibility. There's an issue with attitudes to education. You can throw, now listen, I'm not saying money can't help on some level, but I swear down, you could throw. Sometimes you can throw as much money as you want at something, but unless you have, as JP mentioned earlier, the consequences and the structures and the societal norms and the sort of boundaries that exist, you can throw as much money as you want at it. Without those things

40:51as well, it's like throwing money down the drain. If you don't have that structure around it and those boundaries and those consequences and those norms of society, you don't have those, but you throw loads of money at it. Well, it might chip away at the edges a little bit, but it should be both. It should. And there's that part of me that's that part of me. I know it's traditional thinking I get it, but it's like do something well. Get rewarded. Look after something. Get rewarded. I'm not saying that's the way it should all work because we're talking about children's futures, but there is something we, my opinion, someone we've gone wrong, this but I've said this before on it too much too much take take take and not enough give give give. There's there's got to be some sort of balance here. Now, I'm not saying I don't know how to restore that and I'm not saying it ever existed because I'm not one of those people who goes, oh yeah, remember, because I mean Victorian times there was like the artful dodges crew going around pick

41:55pocketing. There was like people selling poo and there was also some other stuff going. There was loads of crime like going on everywhere, right? So let's not pretend that this was some sort of halicone thing. However, there was probably a little bit more deference towards adults maybe in even in the not so distant past, right? I think we've moved, you know, I do think that teacher authority that we've talked about, the respect of the teacher in some cultures, by the way, that still exists. So it's not as if it's not as if it can't be attained. It can be attained. So don't turn around and go, all that time's gone. No, no, we've moved forward into some enlightened age where it's way more everybody, you know, called teachers by the first names and let's get on all well and it's all sure, but in other societies, respect for teachers is still higher than it is in other societies. So you have to explain to me then because they still have the traditional

42:56values in those in those places, right? Even in Europe, I'm not even talking outside of you, I'm talking even in Europe, even in comparable countries to the UK. You see what I'm saying. Are you ready for the Bengal Court? You know where I'm going to say I started this? No, I'm never going. Early in the ship, the Iron Lady, because the whole society now is a bit neat. It's the sense of entitlement. It's no community any longer, return schools into businesses. We already had somebody attack already the public sector. The public sector in this country are absolutely on their knees. I could do policemen talk radio and have a say, firemen talk radio. I mean, we saw during COVID or nurses. Yeah, national treasures. Give them a clap. Did they get a pay rise? It's a fight respect. When your government don't respect you and they don't respect us. Those idiots send us into battle with no PPE. We were gassed lit during COVID. Let's not go off on the massive I am. I'm not watching. Five minutes of this. No, watch watch. You said the very start. It's about how you're important. You're in that environment. It's an important environment. We talk about the

44:00broken window theory. Our school is state is 15 billion pounds. It needs. We were promised that. We have a rack as best as all joking aside, the actual physical state of our schools is a national disgrace. And to all these points, you're 100 percent right. 8% of people in the last general election said education was important. It was 11th. 11th on the ranking list. There are 9 million children in this country. And you know what? People tell me that their children are the most important. But I tell you what, maybe they're pets are more important because they'd invest more in their pets than they will looking after their children because the state of our education system is a national disgrace. And we all know that now because the pennies dropped with the number of needs. And that is because now we realize, oh my god, our education system's not producing don't people who are fit to work. Well, that's going to cost us money, isn't it? It is going to cost you money because you have literally run everything to the ground. I would say this country is not just managed to climb because managed actually means there are people managing it. It has been run to the hills, take what you've got, get your kid in your private school and let the

45:02prep art schools run to the ground. And then hand them over to thoughtless, completely corrupt toward organizations who are taking money out of education and not putting into the classroom. That's the state of our education system. And at the last general election, I can tell you, I fought in the last general election in education. It was getting in on the agenda, it was non-existent. What a labor come up. Let's go after some policy of attacking private schools for a billion and a half quick, chicken feed to what we really need. And that was more driven for headlines than it was a practical change in educational policy. I have we've seen more education than it's just going through. So I don't blame the politicians. I blame the Department of Education. They're meant to be the people managing your education system. Do you know what? They're kind of managing a bath, never mind an education system because they're the people who say they could. They're absolute disgrace. They're an absolute disgrace. No, only for about three minutes, by the way, that was not five, that was three. What are your Gibraim sort of Margaret Thatcher for everything bad that's happened? And Lure. But I just blame that there's so many,

46:09there's so many different issues in the country now that a lot of people been impacted by it and the education is no longer in those top five, top five, yeah, I agree with that. That's the government anymore. I agree with it. And I think that is what's changed the game now, the government way. What are more important? JP, you mentioned pets. What else is up there? Well, people love their pets more than their children. Sometimes that's beyond us, but they where they talk to their fur babies is better than they talk to their own babies. And they probably train their dogs that go to the toilet, be better more than they take body, train children to go to school. And not funny when you think about that actually. The list is changes from election to election. The last election differ from 2019. You know the number one thing in 2019 was Brexit wasn't it? So you have Brexit and then you had immigration and then you had the NHS. At the last general election, it was cost of living. Of course, it was cost of living. Yeah. Immigration was third. And your politicians and your media can change the priorities. And you had that of course, you see that going mind number one priority. Keep using these

47:12phrases. And the burdens come in and these are his priorities are and they're making this neat thing a priority because of course they have to make this neat thing a priority because this is the future generation of workers. In the same way that I've told you many times before, policy in the 19th century was driven 20th, early 20th century. We're all historians here. We all know the real function of the liberal reforms was the fact that the country's national efficiency was in competition with Germany and Germany was winning because German people are healthier. German factories are producing more output. And Britain was falling behind the empire and needed people to be healthier because the board war in South Africa, some South African farmers took the British empire to nearly defeat because the British army wasn't fit to fight. Now we're back to that situation where our kids teeth are rotting, our children aren't fit and healthy. And if the Russians invaded this country right now, I'm really sorry, but it's not going to happen. We aren't going to be defended. And you saw a lot of the likes of Ukraine. There are people leaving the UK to go back to Ukraine because they better dentists in a war zone than we have in this company. That is a downing indictment if I we've run everything so to the ground. So there's your priority.

48:13The education was 11th of that list tax crimes higher. Your relationship with the EU is higher. The virus was higher. NHS was number two. Of course, NHS, you always call in elections, usually labour goes with the NHS to conserve its business taxes. And usually it's a kind of straight spot between who looks after your taxes better where the taxes important to conservatives win, where the NHS is important labour wins. They're usual at botclagrines and for a play of the Lib Dems, they've snuck in there and they've said, well, let's make education. And it's interesting how the union, I'm not a affiliated union, endorsing, not endorsing but working with the Lib Dems who are effectively saying, look, we have education policy that matches the enemy, which is usually in the reins. Just to come in, I just coming back to the point about the the class sizes. So for me, if someone said to me, and I get the points you're making, you can say this to me in any environment, you can put me UK, Europe, Africa, Asia, wherever you want. If you said to me, you will now have a class size of 35 to 40, but you will teach 30 to 40% less classes.

49:27You will not have TA support. You will be expected to teach in probably a more didactic way because of the nature of the class sizes. You'll probably be, it will be a lot more chalk and talk. Some people would love that, others perhaps not, but you'll be on that, you'll be doing the chalk and talk. So the expectation for you to do lots and lots of things in that hour is going to lessen because you've got more students in there. However, you're going to have 35 to 40 in there, but you're going to teach 40% less. Really sorry, as a model, some people won't like this because it goes against personalized learning, it goes against individualized support, it goes against the movement and the trend in the UK. I totally get that. I'm just saying for me as Tom the teacher, what I would prefer would be that. I could talk, I could talk about it. I could

50:27talk about it. I do, but the problem with that is that would require a huge change. So the moment you said that, you would have a huge thing of funding. No, we need more funding, we need smaller class sizes, we need this, we need this. I'm just saying as a me, Tom as a teacher, if you're telling me you're going to reduce the contact time, significantly reduce, not by 5%, you're going to reduce it by 30%, or 40% the amount of contact, maybe even 50% by increasing the class sizes. Now, I just, yeah, I think it's something I'd feel confident being able to do as a teacher, the class size increase. I'd feel more confident about that than some of the other things that have been introduced since I've started out as being a teacher, having to try and do during lessons. You said to me, I'll increase the class size versus, or by the way, you've got to do these interventions, you've got to do this, you've got to plan for this and you've got to produce that. The one caveat I would

51:27have is it'd be really difficult, the older the children get. I think at GCSE that would be difficult, at exam classes that would be very difficult. In lower school, key stage three, yes, I mean, that's why I probably don't know. I'm actually seeing it the other way around. I think it'd be harder at key stage three than key stage four. Oh, no, no, for me. Workload, marking feedback. Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, that's side. No, but I'm talking about in class, though, their capacity to cope with the bigger class size. Personally, I think the key stage four and five would cope with that better than key stage three would. Prodo, have enough resources. Would you have enough space for the chairs? Would you have enough? I haven't thought of all that. I'm just saying how they do it in and I get what you said, JP, I don't disagree with that bit about what Singapore is like as a society and an education, I get that. And I also get what you're saying about different cultural differences between British kids and kids in different countries and so on. I get that as well, but I am just

52:29simply saying as a teacher who's taught in various different places and countries, like if you said to me, pure and simple, contact time down, class sizes up as a model, as a strategy, if you like, unless we're saying there's a there's a there's a money tree somewhere and we can do it all. Great, but if there isn't, that would be my personal thing of if you gave me the choice and said, this is what you're going to get, I'd always go for that. Teachers have always played a vital role in shaping AQA qualifications as assessment reform approaches. The questions being asked about the future of education matter more than ever and so do the voices helping to answer them. That's why AQA has launched the AQA Teacher Insight Program. Over the next 12 months, the program will bring together teachers views and experiences through research, engagement and AQA's partnership with Teacher Tap, building a comprehensive picture of classroom experience

53:35to help inform the future of qualifications, assessment and education. Such AQA assessment reform and have your say today. This show is brought to you in partnership with Hashtit Learning, publishers of professional development books and resources that support great teaching and learning in schools around the world. Level up your professional development today and visit Hashtitlearning.com to explore the full range of titles. I think Linkin to either a conversation with a teacher, a primary school teacher, and there was somebody who works in business and they asked me this question and this is the one question which is the bill or an end all question and they went online, you work really hard, you do all this work to try and help kids as well as possible but is the output there? Do you feel comfortable with what you're giving, from all that work that you're doing? Do you feel like you're being successful with all that output going for education in the minute? We both sort of said no. I think that's the

54:38thing. If you increase class sizes, the one thing that would you feel comfortable with that output, would you feel comfortable with knowing that 100% that each and every single one of those children you've given your best bit of teaching to help them go on in the world? All the sacrifices we have to make to make teaching sustainable for more teachers, okay? I keep coming back to this and I said this 10 years ago, I keep coming back to it. Listen, some people, it's not necessarily about what is the best, it's about what is the most sustainable to keep the better teachers teaching. That's the way I look at it. Not everyone's going to see the same, they're going to go, no, it's about each individual child getting the very, very, very best they can get and I get that. I totally get that. I'm just saying, I wrote an article 10 years about the future of education and then this article I wrote about the future of education, you had 150 kids in a hall for 90 minutes a day supervised by five members of SLT on one to one

55:43devices doing sort of personalized learning courses and so on and then that then freed up the rest of the staff to have lighter teaching loads. Would that be better for each individual child? Maybe not. That's sort of like the alpha school model, isn't it? Of, you know, personalized learning and we just stick them on devices, we have a bit of that during COVID. However, again, I keep coming back to this. My system thing is how do we get British UK teachers in England? How do you get their teaching average down from 21 to 23? I was now a get JP, fair enough. Some people turn around and go increased taxes then. So you then, so you then, uh, paying for more teachers, but you've then got to find the teachers. No, the money's there. This is the this is the whatever you move. No, no, no, no, no, no, exactly. The money's there. The money's there to pay a national debt. We shouldn't have to pay. Money's there to pay. Where's the money? JP? Where's the money? The

56:47truth is, well, it's called the banking crisis of 2008 where they just printed more money. Doful for that. The CTS, there's, there's negative arms. Spark your priorities. Look after your dogs, educate your children. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, they don't sell poor. Spends 16% on the education system. The GDP per education system for the UK has decreased year on year, which means they're spending less for GDP. So they keep talking about giving the defense budget, and that's true. The defense budget has also declined by down to 1.5%. So we've heard that figures, but so has the education budget. So what has increased? What spending has increased? I tell you what's increased. Triple luck. Patience. Truth. Groundpower gets a new knee in the NHS and gets a 1-bed ago on a lovely house. The next console house, they block for 50,000 pounds, they deny selling this one like me for 250.000. There's plenty money in the UK. It's a sixth wealthiest economy in the world. It's a by priorities. It's back to Oliver's point. Spark your point. The money is already on the one. The money is also on the one. And the money is also on the one. And the

57:50also what we've also done. It's not just about the money going to the education. It's the money being filtered out of education through. Put these schemes, building schemes and corporations and companies taking over the catering services. It's the money going out for consultants. Yeah. I say it's people and for the, for, I'm for the new CEOs on a half a million point. It's not going into the classroom. It's not going to our children. Yeah. You have a massive inefficient bloated and at mirrors. It mirrors the mental health services, which I am familiar with, mirrors the NHS. We have an inefficient system, which is losing and hemorrhaging money. And it's about a part of the bill. So you extend then that inefficiency at any level of the system. Get would you would you be a overdose style? Yes. Right. I'm really sorry. But I would renaut it. I would renaut it. Let me caveat. Let me caveat. I would ring friends. Two. Why can't I finish my point? Two groups of people. Teachers and teaching assistants not to be doged. Everything else. Ah, there we go. There we've come down to it now. The left wing J.P. Arthur Skogel has come out. Apart from our union members, everyone else can get per.

58:55No, I'm sorry. Who's, who's asked us in the class doing the flippin' job? Who do you really need in the education system? Well, who do you really need? What, what do you need? More generals? Do you need more generals in awarding, more soldiers in the world? We have an education system full of generals, the tenants, commanders, and they're all like bloody black all our old finding ways not to pull over the top. Why loss? But again, that's a very Arthur Skogel way of looking at things which I listen. Some people agree with and I agree with that. I agree with I agree with I agree with. I agree to fix this laugh in it. This teacher picks up if you haven't met J.P before, he's his our version of Arthur Skogel, he presents I am not someone who's quite sendrous, but deep down he's he's a young Jeremy I think that I can't have exceptionalism. That's my view. If you're going to have a philosophy on things, it's great, isn't it? When you do this big thing and then go, oh, yeah, but not them, not my mates. Listen, I agree. I agree with what you said about teachers being at the chalk face. And I agree with what you said about wastage of cash.

59:57And I agree with what you said about some of the money that's going out of schools towards supply agencies, for example, towards external consultancies, towards the efficiencies after school. But there's other things that are deeply unpopular, though, for teachers to say that other people, if you were looking at things purely downline and going, right, you know what, we're just going to cut wasted. There will be some people going, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not wastage. That's, I'm not going to name those things. I don't want to get cancelled today. But there's certain things people will want. I don't know if you want to get cancelled. I get in them. Yeah. No, we can't have J.P. get cancelled. Is this the UK or not the UK? So why do we have different education systems, regional education systems, regional boards, the inefficiency, the part of education in doing the job, just get rid of it. I would just get rid of the department of education, job done, get rid of the mind runs, and put an education system in this, actually, by teachers for teachers, and by people who know what they're talking about. J.P. No, they have field. It's the same policy I have about the home office. If they count, you know, the home office

1:00:57can't manage our borders, the home office can't manage our security systems, the home office has failed, they have, you know, they failed under trees, they have continued to fail. So, you know, what's the definition in the sanity? You know what I mean? Keep electing clients, you're going to keep getting the circus. So we do need to think about education reform, but they're skirting around the surface because here's the thing, the teachers aren't the problem. Oh, you're on the sand of Ben. Why not the problem? Why would they be caught? There's already a shortage of teachers anyway. They can't cut any more of us. Oh, you'll have to just cut it in, mate. I just think, I just think, if you have any sort of inquiry into anything, education, the thing is the numbers are never produced. You never, you have a panorama documentary on a school about behavior and about things like that, but you never have a panorama on money and the finances of schools across the country. And I think if there was more visibility on that, maybe that would change people's minds, they would change up with the public's mind. But that way, I think there needs to be, obviously it's tax payers money. It's your money, surely you should know where that money's going. But I think there needs to be a lot more visibility

1:02:00on what schools and academies are spending money on. I think it should be clear. I think it should be set out of what, in your area, what are your, and if, for example, they're spending this much on supply teachers because they're going through these different, these different, what are they going to have to go name it? These, these, these different programs and these different like companies that sell supply teachers on, on a huge profits, which is, which is a complete, I don't understand why there's no sort of, off-gen, there's no sort of, there's no government office. Well Bridget Phillips is dead. I don't know what happened to that, but I'm sure Bridget Phillips and before she left did mention something on supply agencies in terms of regulating them. I could be making that up. They need more, they need more than regulation because they're absolutely, they're killing, they're killing schools' budgets. On time. And it's, and it is disgraceful that that's continued and just, but you know what? Again, I keep coming back to it. If you take what I say, and listen, JP, I don't disagree actually with a lot of what you said. I just, do everything in the police.

1:03:00I just love it when you go off on one. But I think, I think there is a lot of wastage. However, I'm just talking as a general approach to, you know, to, to education in terms of teacher contact time. That's the approach I'm talking about. So forget about how much money there is or isn't. I'm talking about a general approach to, how you can create more space and time for teachers. And by doing that, we mention the supply agencies and all this other stuff that goes on. Some of that, I think would dissipate because teachers would feel healthier, happier, they'd have a bit more time to gather themselves. Therefore, they're off less, they're real less, they're not feeling the dread as much of, oh my God, a full day tomorrow and the day after. That's what drives people to absence. When they go, I've got this coming up, I can't do it. Right? And that's when the absence kicks in, okay? So if you're taking that away, go, I'm gonna minute, I've got three hours teaching out of six.

1:04:04I've got maybe my worst day is four out of six, best day, two hours six. And I've got that over a five, suddenly, right? A lot of the things we talk, I'm telling you, a lot of the things that your thinkers are teacher get easier. Now listen, in places like Singapore and Japan, they have masses of time on professional development, collaborative lesson planning, meetings, et cetera, in their, in their freeze. Right? So they're almost like directed time, but you're with your colleagues. I'm really sorry, that's like, that would be perfect. That's amazing. Right? It's like, okay, we can sit here with a drink and we can talk about teaching and learning. Like we do on TTR, how wonderful, that'd be more structured and we'd have to put a timer or some sort of electric cattle prod on JP so we couldn't go off them on. But it would still be fun because we would still be able to sit around and sort of talk about what we're doing. So listen, there's my point. I'm gonna make it from a general strategic point of view. I, berg with me now, you know what a joke says?

1:05:05Is this relevant? Ready for this? England in the world, England in the world called. Oh, please don't talk about that JP. No, no, I'll, I was about that. I know, I don't bring that up. No, I'm serious actually. Right, I need to make a point. I'm gonna make a point. I hear it comes the Irish guy. Yeah, go on, go on. No, I'm not sure. I'm not explaining that. What's the problem? Players were not good. Why were the players not good? Why the Premier League does not give a winter break? We look at the Premier League and pay us the Premier League. I have a lot of football analysis. I've got time for this. It is football analogy. Over-trained, over-trained teams with more injuries. What happens to an over-trained team with more injuries? There's a lot of step in. And they have to go into the market to buy more players. And then it's not sustainable. That was some of the issues that clock for how, you know, over time, you have to get ready in the players. I really said that there was one recently that if you're overdoing it, you have to manage those players and you get people saying, my God, they're professional footballers. If you make them run around all the time at the high-impact level they are, as professional athletes, they will break. And some of them will break more, which means the more you train them, then the more you take an Irish football call Paul McGraw.

1:06:07He had even never trained in the 20s or 30s. He was in these were short pieces. He turned on in the World Cup in 1994. No training whatsoever. And the man was an absolute colossus against the Italians. Yet he didn't train. He wasn't able to work. His game time was managed. This is what we're talking about with teachers. If you want the best out of us, then managers correctly, and it comes back to two things. One, over-micro-managing us, and over-managing us, and putting too much on us, and breaking us, and then we go off on the sick, and then all these points is absolutely spot on. Then the supply budget comes in, and then you don't, and here comes the behavioral thing. It's all a cascade. Then the children don't get their normal teacher. Then the SCND is not served. The child doesn't know this person who kicks off. That calls in the behavior team, you don't have to go around with I.V.S. Vest. Which then in turn generates more paperwork for the hard up past two teams, all because not one member staff is all. Because not one member staff is exhausted, because they're being terribly managed by people way above their pay grade. We're sitting in offices, pushing paper, and going, and they don't get what's happening in the grind. It's exactly what happens to anything new.

1:07:08Anybody gets exhausted, they break, and you have to replace them. But what's been replacing them is not the same quality, because supply agencies are not supplying us any longer with ex-teachers. It used to be supply agencies. It used to give us ex-teachers. Now you're getting supply agencies giving us a body in a room. And a body in a room who basically just goes, not my problem, they might have issues we've had from supply teachers who I would need and call them a supply teacher, they're just a person who's getting free money and stealing a living sometimes. And yet supply agencies, screaming off profits, they sent us a kick to Fankersboro, our business and going. It was a bloody big kick. I'll tell you that, because they're absolutely bleeding us out. And all of that is connected by the people in charge who think they get to more out of people. This is the Anglo-Saxon philosophy, squeezing more out of people, and you say, it doesn't work. You say that as well. A lot of those teachers, the supply teachers, they're not getting paid that great either. No, I'm a getting offered. Well, this is the best we can do. It's 110, it's 120 of that. And the supply agencies taking 253 under the debt.

1:08:09They're pocketing like that. They're literally pocketing. That they're off in the satials, just selling all through the year. That's what's crazy is the quality. The quality of teaching because of that is the knock on effect of quality and teaching in general from that alone is huge. It's the Scrakeball as well. And no one talks about it. I keep coming back though to what I said about contact time, the whole article, again, every single article you see is about fully funded pay rise. Listen, I understand. I get the pay is a part of a teacher's life. But you very rarely in these articles see, very rarely what we've spent a little bit of time talking about here, which is contact time and what it could be or should be and how you get there. We can all have different ideas about how you get there. So even if like JP says, yeah, it's about money that should be invested into that to lessen the contact time or you could have someone like me, maybe who says, well, if the money's not there, the money's not there, or whatever,

1:09:09you don't have different opinions on it. But the fundamental thing is the same of decrease the contact time. And I'm saying that quite often in these articles and reports and surveys, doesn't seem to be as much attention paid. The rarely is on PPA versus contact time. And I personally think that is the key issue that would solve so many of these other issues that we're talking about. Coming back to what you were saying about staff outside the classroom. Again, listen, controversial one. But I agree with you completely. If you're going to have a central team in an academy trust, which contains 10 to 20 people, right, who were like, I don't know, advises on different subjects or this person, that person consultants and so on. If you slice that all up and just said, you're in the classroom with these, for the amount of time that you would be doing that,

1:10:12you know, just a classroom teacher, with a sign to JP. So Tom, you're assigned to 20% of his timetable from September, because we've changed our strategy. We're not going to have a, we're not going to have as many consultants, professional development people, central team, which is not going to have it. We're going to strip it right back. Or you're just going to go and you're going to take 20% of JP's timetable. You're going to take 30, you're literally just going to take over that 30% of all these timetable and 10% of whoever's timetable. That's what you're going to do. And you're going to do the marking with it as well. And you're going to, and that's what you're going to do, because listen, I am, I am, and this is even more true than ever. If you are a proper teaching professional and you like teaching, love teaching, as many, many teachers do, you will do your own professional development. You will, you will. I remember when I, in my first few years of teaching,

1:11:12I was addicted to teachers TV. I would watch teachers TV all the time, John Bailey and all these other people in the classroom observing lessons, giving feedback, all the different, that's different now I think. But teachers TV, I'd read loads of articles, I'd read the tests, I'd like, I'd do loads of stuff like that. I take control of my own CPD, if you like. And I do my own, I go to events, I go to teach meats, I've talked to colleagues, I've downloaded different resources and used them to test them. Loads of things, right? I think teachers, I'm not saying like, I'm not saying there doesn't need to be any PD provision, but like, listen, if you said, if you said to you, Ollie now, listen, I'll tell you what we'll do, we'll cut down your contact time by 30% because John, who normally does the PD, he's going to come over the year and teach your lessons for you. Instead of planning all the PD sessions that he was going to plan for, he's going to just come in and teach your lessons for you. What would you say to that? Well, I think the,

1:12:13the bit personal in terms of like, I always like to have control and ownership over my class, if that makes sense. Like I want the world. It wouldn't be your class. If it is, literally we're taking off a class from you not half of the class. Oh, that's fine. So we're not taking off that. That's, that's different. They're not shared groups. Like, actually we're going, you'd have three innings. You're going to have two innings next year. Fine. Then that would give me more time to be more creative, be more experimental and probably improve the outcomes of those children and then you'd feel fine. And you'd have an extra two hours, you'd have an extra two hours, two hours, PPA because of that. Listen, I'm not, this is not personal against the people who work in those teams because I know some of them and they're really great people. They've got a lot of expertise. Really good. What this is is about the system that says we're going to go this way. And I'm, listen, I just think huge SLT teams, huge middle leadership teams, huge consultant budget, huge, if a consultant is being paid 10 grand,

1:13:14to come into a school for a day, plus some follow ups, what does that tell you? I think things like that, personal opinions, I'd ban things like that. I think I'm fed up with, fed up with people that have been outside the classroom for so long and they come into a school, and they tell you the things that you're already aware of. I've not had that with my school, but I'm aware of other schools where there's been behavior consultants that have come in that have not been in the classroom for the last 10 years, and they're coming in and saying things that a lot of people are already doing. They need new ideas. They need new ways to sort of manage behavior and some of these more extreme behavior things that are coming into the classroom, but they're not worth the money that they're paid at all. Like I think some of the, some of the actual like, I think four grand, one I've heard four grand at a school in my area for a week for this behavior consultant because a school at the road from me got a really important that was in needs improvement.

1:14:14But then they've been fleeced that amount of money for one person for one week to come up with strategies and ideas. That's in a week. They're not going to be able to even cope the icing of what's going on in that school. So I just think, I think if you bring out the numbers of how much these consultants are getting, how much are they in it for at the end of the day? The kids, or are they in it for their own prerogative than their own sort of their own bank balance? Because that that, that would be one thing. I wonder how many you'll be rolled out for the first couple of days of insets that we're going to be coming up see. This is their season, like wedding season. It's consultant season. Yeah, I've stayed in looking for that. I've stayed in looking for that. Oh, the latest framework is this is the way to do it. This is the way to do that. Oh, yeah, my successful school, you're going on, go on, sneak all this is, and you've seen them all before. Goon, behavior or guru, you've recycled something from something. And we've heard a little before in education. And I'm not going to use this phrase in the way that some people interpret it now, but I think there are far too many chiefs and none of Indians, which actually the original statement about

1:15:16was too many generals and none of soldiers. And that was the American military hood after World War II, a plenty of officers, but none of soldiers any longer. And that's where education is working at the moment. It goes back to my point about we're losing teachers. But what seems to be growing is the bureaucracy. And the Romans had a phrase for that. The bureaucracy is growing to meet the needs of the ever-expanding bureaucracy. And that's our education system. It's been complicated. It's lost its track. It's lost its way. Teachers have been made redundant. I was nearly made redundant because a central team lost 10 million pounds. Not me. I was being punished as a classroom teacher of 22 years for the mistakes of a central team. Who, the Department of Education did not hold accountable for three years. So there is the donkeys. Where the lions, they're the donkeys. And I'm sorry, you're absolutely right, Ollie. They might do reporting of these things. Pardorhamad does a lot of culture of ADHD sort of with Channel 4. That makes the news. We're getting out of culture wars. They just won't move. We did a great show on it. Empire, you did a brilliant show.

1:16:16And empire's not being taught properly in school. And the future government's going to be talking about waving the freaking Union flag in school is going to be the most important thing. Great, where the Union flag is the freaking school collapses are right here. Go on ahead. That's great. You have a flag pool that's going to be up with the school of the big collapse. And they don't get the realities of you cannot keep doing what we're doing. You cannot sustain an education system that's been wrong to the grind. And it is being mismatched. And that's the fact of the matter is. So you talk about why teachers are leaving. Here are the reasons why teachers are leaving. Stress, workload, lack of appreciation, and student behavior. Yes, the workload is connected to stress and stress. But some of the stresses that I see in education is, no, I don't mind being busy. I don't mind being a busy teacher. I don't mind doing kids marketing. I love doing that. I love giving the feedback. What I do mind is they utter senselessness of filling in complete and utter bureaucratic nonsense. Are the leaders gimmicky website that I have to go to and download and do this? And what put me, as you said, Jesus did not

1:17:18lead a lesson plan, delivered a sermon in the mind. You didn't do that. You didn't go today by the day of the day I'm going to use that technology. The art of teaching is thousands of years old. Soccer teeth. It's thousands of years old. Put us in a classroom, give us children. But give us the time and the resources. What we have is a factory process where we are not producing the quality in our education system, but it's quantity. They've gone for quantity. We're not getting the quality. And of course, there are parents who are screaming at us going, you're not meeting my child's needs. Do they understand? I am trying to meet your child's needs, but I cannot do it. So stop having to go at me. Get your ass in a bloody voting booth. And next election, come and vote on it. Like 42% of people didn't bother last election. Put education higher in the priority. So all of those family campaigners out there who are anti-school and have taken their children and all the rest of it. Thanks. You could have stayed and fought for the education system. You could have stayed in and fought for everybody in the education system. Because I'm passionate about saving education. I just seem to be on my own sometimes.

1:18:19And the political system doesn't seem to want to care unless it reaches a point where they can no longer ignore it. And they've reached that point because, yes, so parents out there have made neurodiversity such a big thing in front of them. Because they're fighting for their children. I can't die. I'm a parent fighting for my child too. But don't just fight for your own child. Fight for all the fucking children in their own education system. Because there's teachers like me being driven out. And you, you, some of your parents are part of the problem driving people like me out. She's like, I'm the problem. Go up to the top. I'm the soldier. Go to the generals. Go to the commanders. Go to the prime minister. Help me to help the children. Because that's how a lot of us feel. And that's the frustration of a teacher who nearly walked away at the profession. Not because I don't love it any longer. Because I've been driven out of it based upon economics and cost and back of that matter. There you go. If you're enjoying this chat, guys, give it a like, give it a share. You know you're loving it. It's full of JP Rans. It's been absolutely sensational. Ollie, are you enjoying the JP Ranses or anything you'd like to do?

1:19:21I'm enjoying the JP Ranses. I think I just think the thing is, and like, it's completely true. You'll never see a government debate on education where you've got each education and shadow education minister and each education representative from each party have a go and have a debate about education and what they want education to look like. Because the truth is, I don't think any political party has an idea or clue about what they want their own education system to look like and what their perfect sound of education is to look like. And that's the really sad thing. The sad thing is that the priority of education is, I only think we'll get lower and lower. That meaning that some of the best quality teachers in the country will leave or be like running away from running, running away from the sink and ship. And they'll be a handful of quality teachers who are like playing your violin on the Titanic as it goes down. And that's what's really sad. But the actual, the best bit about teaching is being in that classroom, teaching,

1:20:22marking, doing all those things to help the kid out and to help them do as well as possible. That's the reason why everyone stays in it. I think I'll say something about that. A lot of people, let me just drop saying it, a lot of people are guilt-tripped into that scenario and that costs on them, whether that be illness, whether that be stress, whether that be anxiety because they feel like they've been led to strain into that guilt, which is extremely sad. I agree with you. 100%. And then a lot of teachers feel when I've spoken to teachers that want to leave, but can't leave, they can't, because they don't know what to go afterwards, they don't know what to do after teaching. They have no choice economically to move out of teaching. They even know they've sort of passionate and love has died out. They're still stuck in it because they are stuck in that system because they can't afford to leave it. So it's a very frustrating cycle when it all affects quality. Well, Art Smart also, JP's best friend from home has commented, Art Smart 91, it's not JP's best friend from my, I don't know. But I'm sure he appreciates you comment, Art Smart,

1:21:22brilliant from JP, a man with values who cares, we definitely cares. And he's probably got some values, I don't know about the brilliant bit. No, no, he is brilliant. We love JP, we love JP, come on. But it's okay. I agree, Paul. We can. I love you, too. I love you, but do I have British movies? I was going to say though. Holly, I was going to say that, like, you know, you mentioned like the marketing stuff. If you have loads of time, you get your little link, Quill. Oh, I'm sorry, you get like the, you know, Anya on in the background and you're like, oh, this is, oh, I've got all this time to mark. And listen, if you had loads of time to do whatever, and it's nice and calm and you don't feel like you've got five more minutes until the bell rings. And then you've got, it's great. Unfortunately, it's never happens. Does it? You've never got even five minutes to just go, oh, yeah, this is, I can settle down and just, I'm on interrupting and I've got, I think it's, yeah, I don't think it's got better. I think it's probably got worse since I started teaching

1:22:2220 years ago in terms of that. So my prediction, my prediction in terms of marketing in the next 20 years, because I speak into some people at Excel and AQA Pearson when I was at uni. And they were saying they were testing out a lot more AI marking tools. So a lot more tools where rather than a examiner marking a paper, it would now be AI. And I think that brings about a lot of questions about the human side of things. Does it improve accuracy? Does it improve that human error in social democracy? It depends on the subject. Maths, I've got no issue with a huge, heavily trained AI engine marking maths. I've just got no issue with it. I'm sorry if that makes me, you know, against the grain on that. English, English I have an issue with. History I have an issue with or another subject. But I would imagine that the people thinking about this have probably checked into that. But I'm never going to say with history and English and a few other subjects, how I say never going to say,

1:23:24we have no concept of where AI is going to go. We are in the infancy. This is like 1993 with the internet. That's where we are now with AI. When we had like a computer that took five minutes to load up and the screeching of the broadband and had two sites we could visit when we logged in. Ali, sorry, you never experienced this because you weren't born. But what if you were, you'd have experienced as a 10 year old that, which is basically, well, I was like 13 or 14 or something first computer, right? And all that. So that's that experience. So that's where we are with AI. So I get what people are saying now, and I completely agree. However, we don't have any concept of where we'll be at in five to 10 years. And for gods to market with regards to what AI can identify and do. Here's the thing. Technology is always told to us. It's going to make our jobs easier. And in some ways, I don't write the reports I used to. Another meant writing in port because now

1:24:24are the reports of generic crude produced, you know, easy done. But PowerPoint made it easier though. Yes, true. But again, the quality of reports is not existed that either. You don't get a quality school report, even my own. Now, my my my children's school still write hard reports. And it is brilliant reading my child's report, which I kept, which was personal, which was handwritten. But of course, they have one class of 40 plus children. They don't have 416 children that I have last year, 416 children in three different subjects across 17 different classes. You want to you want to go ahead and write 416? And I used to have to I used to have to write 400 plus hard written reports. This used to take me two to three weeks sometimes. So efficiency, yes, has increased the net planning house. But has my job got easier? No, because here's the key point. What I do in the classroom now is exponentially more than I used to do. I am more exhausted because children are more demanding and more difficult. And then comes the pastoral stuff, which has got even more.

1:25:25It's not my job to get your child friends. I saw your child's friendship problems. Here comes. Got no friends. Got no friendship problems. I am not a social networking guru. I can't fix their social media problems. Here I'll solve your child's social media problems. Switch it off. Don't get them on the mobile phone. End of discussion. Now it's our job to do all of these things. We have become social scientists. We become societies, we become psychologists. We become professionals in God knows everything. And yet the more that we've had to do those things and take an inset then be trained up on all of these things, we are an eye jack of all three of master. And modern teachers and I have to be absolutely completely and we're an ass-horns people. When ass-horns men, we have to be almost like Da Vinci or we have to do everything. And yet we get little appreciation. So there's a weird thing happening. We're doing more, but being appreciated less. And more is the mound of those. Whereas a simple teacher authority 50 years ago went in, marked a couple of books, walked back up. Yes, they have more school trips. You know, I remember when I started teaching people, they'd do more things outside school.

1:26:26And here's the coffee options. And I will finish it. The government wants more of what I got as a child. More of school trips, more in-mitch conductivities, more clothes, more societies, more of all those things. But it always misses the one key part of that. I had a youth worker at a youth club to go to, even in the height of the trouble, Ben Go, even in an early deprived area of Ben Go. There was still a youth worker and a football team and football pitches and swimming pools and all those things. They're all gone. That's gone now. And so were the youth workers and the youth services. So it's all in our schools now. We are the one service that takes the hits for everybody and the one their parents are going to go with us. Because they can't get a hold on them. Yeah, it's going to get on the full new doctor without going through. So if you want to bring AI into it, it's going to make the situation worse. Because our unique selling point is the human to human interaction. So keep AI out of schools, keep AI out of government's embracing AI, like some industrial revolution kind of factory ass potency. Some gurus must be in their area. You know what it is? Some business guy, he's probably got connections, like connections, assertion, such,

1:27:26just come up with a broader, it's going to make schools more efficient. I can tell you what makes going to make schools more efficient. There have been also out of the classroom, say teachers should have expenses. And I will predict the future. The only people having a teacher in 30 years will be private schools. Because our children, as you pointed out, Tom, children in the normal sector will be going, what's a teacher? Oh, that guy that used to do that. We don't have one of those. We are going to be managed hard. And if they embrace the technology they want, they will do a side of a job. And then we have to be careful. I'm just afraid of that. I don't think that will ever happen. I think societies... What? Love of teachers is going to see us. Yeah, well, good luck without one of those people. There will always be enough people in a... Certainly in a sort of... In the Western society, who will want a human teacher. Now, the what they do, that could change in different situations. But for me, that will never be replaced. Human teachers will never be replaced on mass. Maybe replaced in certain niches, sorry, Ollie Gawar.

1:28:28I think the thing that stops that from happening is, as you say, the actual pastoral element that's been pushed on to teachers now, and safeguarding as well. I don't think that's... I think that will... I think people want you to think... What do you think? ..to teach them stuff. 100%. Like, that is bottom line. But the safety of that is also a brilliant factor of why teachers should be kept. Like, the bottom line is... Oh, no, it's not a question of whether they should. But I'm talking about the massive society as why they would still want them, just to disagree with what JP said, even though I get what JP's saying. But I disagree with that because I just think there will always be a great desire just as there always has been in the history of humankind for human teachers. That's just the way it's going to be. Now, that's not to say there will be deviations and there will be things that are going to happen, and AI, listen, I just think we need to be maybe a little bit careful with AI. As I said, it's in its impency.

1:29:29It... We don't know what it's going to be. Now, there were people when the worldwide web came into existence who were saying exactly the same... This is the end times it's going to destroy everything that internet will replace teachers because kids can just look it up on Google, right? That all happened, okay? We're in the same situation... Well, I'm just saying... Well, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm just saying we're in the same situation again with AI. It's only really been in existence for a few years, a few years, right? We don't know or have any concept about how it's going to level out because everything levels out. It's like the internet, it leveled out. But what we also do is we forget sometimes about the benefits of technology. So, I mentioned PowerPoint, slides, right? Projectors, just simple things that we take for granted now that have really... They're out. For some schools, PowerPoint's been used as a step to beat the level of crap out of teachers. Oh, yeah. Here's your PowerPoint, dude. You're giving teachers a lot. That's a separate issue. That's a separate... That's your...

1:30:30You take PowerPoint and I'd say how it's been used. You take the internet and I'd say it's higher than the news. And you know, 20% of experts in AI are... That concerned about AI. They think it's... So, you're saying... It's more about civilization. You're saying J.P. that the internet and PowerPoint hasn't made your job as a teacher easier. No. You're saying it hasn't made it easier. Of course it hasn't, because I'm dealing with the... I'm dealing with the negative consequences. All these PowerPoint and the internet made your job easier as a teacher. Why would I always live with it? So, I'm not from the dark ages, to be honest. True. I can't read it. If someone took it away... If someone took it away from you... From you. If someone took it away from you now, do you think it'd make your job harder? Internet PowerPoint. No, no, I'm just asking you straight. Would it make it easier or harder? Or it wouldn't change at all? I think it's really hard to ask that question, because... Oh my god! I think it's... I mean, what did I land? I think it's much easier with PowerPoint

1:31:31with the internet to teach, right? But I don't know what it was like to teach without that. Does that make sense? No, no, that's not why I asked you. I said, if someone took away the internet and PowerPoint from you tomorrow and said... For the next term, you're not able to use the internet or PowerPoint in your teaching. Would it make it easier or harder for you? That's what I said. You said you didn't know. Well, it would be harder, obviously, but like I'd bring out... Absolutely, that guy. You know what I mean? I'll bring out the chocolate. I'll bring out the chocolate. I would probably ask that. If the internet didn't exist, in our children's attention spans were what they used to be. And our children didn't have the corruption of the internet, which is doing all their minds and melting our bones and giving them brainwaves. I remember that studies are showing that the IQ of our children is decreasing as a result of this. And remember, they do critical thinking. They don't ask questions. Yeah, I'm sad. Internet's causing anxiety. David, for me... There was a connection to the smartphone in 2008 and I met that person in our children. Yeah. I wasn't told about that, though.

1:32:32I was talking about as a teacher. So I'm not talking about society and kids. I'm talking about as a teacher. And I'm saying... And I can't believe that you think this is the kind... I'm saying, but like my dad was a history teacher, right? When he retired in 2008, I was just finishing my PGCE. Actually, no, it's my first year of teaching, Ollie. So, you know... Hold on, Rajas was one of our own policymakers, do you? Pretty much. So when he was... So he retired in 2008 and I was started my training in 2007. When I started my... When he retired in 2008, he'd been teaching for 34 years, right? And if you think he was still using the resource that he'd made in like the 90s. So he... So as a teacher, imagine this, he used to... He used to after dinner, right? Create cartoon worksheets with a pen that he then used to photocopying school. So they were like cartoon strips with fill in the gaps.

1:33:33You know, like Henry VIII or something says something and the kids had to fill it in. No, he's gone. What about each thing? And each thing, it was like eight boxes, okay? And each box, you had to fill something in and there was crosswords, okay? And all these different things, okay, on the sheet. And in 2006, I remember, I've told this story before, but in 2000, I must have been maybe 13 or 14. But one day, Komone was really upset, the dinner table. And a senior leader in the school had dismissed his sheets. They'd said like, May, we've got Microsoft Word, okay? Like, you need to... You can use ClipR, all right? And my dad had spent probably a decade or something, of, you know, making these sheets. And literally in 2007, he handed me the box of them all with like 30 photocopies in each plastic wallet of each of these cartoon sheets, all right, to use. And I genuinely, I was like, tasks when people had finished exams, you know, when they were like sat and they didn't have... I'd given one of these things and that,

1:34:34he's a gritty, all right? Because he'd take an age is like drawing each thing. But, but, okay? He's, you know, when we think about that compared to, in terms of actual, it's lovely, isn't it? It's lovely and listen, it was great. And I think a lot of thought... It was your dad's life easier. This is the thing. Yes, producing resources into that, and PowerPoint is more standard. Absolutely. And probably you see things. It's just life's easier. We can't argue that slowly. Yes, but maybe too easy in a sense that it's these skillings, like in a few kids, like the internet's these skilling people. Or, you know, your dad had to... You know, if you have to write in a board, you take some of the traditional teacher skills. And you take planning, for instance, the way things are being done by dad by PowerPoint. Some teachers now don't have the plan, they're given their lessons to plan. So you're dad had to build up those skills that to be a proper, proper teacher. He could go down to country of the world and teach you, in any country where... Now you've become so dependent on the technology.

1:35:35You said, what happens? What's your plan? You know, look technology there. And it's the same with our children. They're so technology sort of oriented at my recent mind, the wilderness. You know, there's no idea what the direction to go to. I think it's a horrible thing to say, but sometimes the craft has to be learned. It has to be difficult. And the art of teaching, I think, internet, AI, all of the cheat codes are robbing people of a skill set. And if they're not careful, you would ask yourself the question, why am I employing you? You want to pay, you want to be paid more money. The person who's a brain surgeon has paid a lot of money because our person, the brain surgeon, has a defined set of skills. You understand what I'm saying, so we teachers need to be skilled. And they'll be means to be... No, I got that. I got that. And unfortunately, we're just going to use PowerPoints, given this by somebody else, and just go on the internet and Google our art content. That's not what I say with a good teacher. No, no, no, I think you're missing the point. I think that... You're talking about poor teaching there, for me. But let's go to James's comment. James has made a comment.

1:36:36I'd like to agree on a hopeful approach that Tom suggests, but his level is speaking middle to upper secondary. Primary benefits, far less, and the junior section of the school I left for 45 years is going full screen free. We know it's not about screens and images, it's about creating an environment in which young children learn. In the 1990s, slide decks were amazing. Now they are the cold hand of death. Listen, I get the point of view. I just disagree with it. The only point I made is that PowerPoint is that slide decks and projectors and the internet has made teachers' lives easier and better. Now, you still need skilled and good teachers with whatever tools you give them. But if you give them better and more expansive tools, you're probably going to get better results. What you're talking, in my opinion, about J.P. is just poor teaching. It's the idea of, here's a set of PowerPoints.

1:37:37That's your curriculum, that's your teaching. Now that has cracked in. In the last five to 10 years, we've seen this emergence of... Death by PowerPoint. The sort of model of, here's a PowerPoint with a retrieval quiz, knowledge, comprehension, cleanery, every single lesson. That's good teaching, Bob's your uncle. That's not my teacher training in 2007-2008. But in many senses, it's becoming that sort of real thing or a big issue. This is good teaching. And I'm saying, that's not good teaching. Now, that is not to say that if it's me, Tom, OK? Now, what I don't mind is if someone says, this is good teaching, but I'm not forcing you into it. I don't mind that. Fine, you take that PowerPoint and you run through it every single lesson and you keep the kids quiet while you do it and that's your version of good teaching. If that's what you think that is, go for it. OK, fine. What I don't like is someone coming up to me and saying, every single person in this school,

1:38:37every single person in this cluster of schools, every single person in this country is going to teach that way because that's good teaching. And by the way, you have to use this branded PowerPoint when you do it. OK, that to me is where we have a bit of an issue. But that to me is poor. That is that to me, to me, Tom's opinion. That's not good teaching. Good teaching is where you take a good quality resource. And by the way, those power, let me just finish it. Those those resources and PowerPoints and slides that have been created often they can be really good. So I can I can go wrong. That's a good image in that. That's a good source. That's a good talking history wise here. That's good. That's good. Take the PowerPoint. Use it because some of them are really good. And they've had the time to actually invest into making them. OK, I've been a big fan for age. I don't understand in the UK why we don't have centralized resources. We have the national curriculum. Why don't we have a national body of resources, including slide decks and all the rest of it. Now I know there's some independent resource providers

1:39:39would argue that they've sort of done that. But I'm going further than that. I want something that everyone's involved in creating that is almost got this this gold standard of here it is. But no thing of, by the way, you have to use it this way if it's good. No, let teachers use it however they want to use it. Now people scoff and go, ah, card sorts, ah, you know, diamond nines, ah, this, ah, you know, there's a lot of scoffing that goes on because we've brought in this way. This is on trend doing things this way. Oh, you need to update your pedagogy, right? And all that those sort of phrases come in and update to what? Update to something that was actually, you know, 1950s pedagogy, right? It all goes around in circles, doesn't it? Right? So I'm not, I'm not, sometimes you want a balance. But all I'm trying to say is it's not the PowerPoints that's the problem. It's the people telling teachers what to do with the PowerPoint and putting PowerPoint as good teaching.

1:40:41PowerPoint is literally a tool for teaching. It's not, you can't run through a PowerPoint every single lesson with a class and say at the end, now listen and say that's great. You could say it's got them a great exam result because it could involve drilling them and getting through a curriculum in the amount of time you had. But I'm just of the view, again, Tom's view, that's not, that's not like the teeth, that's not the way I see great teaching. But you say some people could come along and go, workload's been cut, we've given you a PowerPoint. You've got to do less planning, we're giving you the plan. Yeah, and they were doing that. Yeah, and then they're trying to squeeze more, right? But they would probably be a valid, a valid point in a way. You don't have a teacher in a classroom because that person is just deliberate. And that is why they're deprofessionalizing the profession. That is why they're getting rid of highly paid because I'm a professional, I'm not highly paid professional. I should be because I've got a skill set, like your dad had a skill set

1:41:43he developed that skills and he was worth the money for 34 years because he had built up a certain set of skills. The more we use the technology, the more we get corporate rights, the more we lose the RF teaching, then of course they're going to say, well, they are just a teacher, I can get anybody in the room to deliver this. The non-specialists, they might have specialists we see no longer teaching, their subjects is a problem. And that's the thing, we are saying a hollowing out of education. And they will give us AI, will make our jobs easier, is code word for, AI is going to allow us to get rid of some of you because we're going to replace some of you. And yet, that's not exactly what we should be doing because like you're saying with the internet, like I'm saying with the AI, I'm you're saying with the PowerPoint, I can amalgamate the PowerPoint that I'm giving. Create something that is bespoke to my children. And the art of me creating is still also doing the most important thing for me as a teacher is my autonomy. My classroom, my students, I should know what I want. It's a bit like the board of a certain football team telling the manager how to play.

1:42:43You say to yourself, well, who's managing this here? Are you managing it? And you say, so if I'm not really a manager because the board's picking the team, they're the one giving me the most. I've got no problem. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with absolutely both of you said. I think teachers should be allowed to teach in their style. They shouldn't, they should not have to be restricted by a PowerPoint because you're not being a teacher at that point. If you're just reading from a slide, you are a presenter, you're not a teacher, you're not crafting and changing people's lives. You're literally a YouTube video. That's not what you're there to do. You're there to teach and individualize. That's your point. And I think you're right. That's creeping into the education system and too much. And it's happening too much. That needs to stop because again, it's affecting that quality. It's affecting the quality of education. And that then affects the whole picture of education. As then you have parents going, but this is what this teacher is doing. This is bad quality teachers. It's an obvious thing. It's a skill. It's a problem.

1:43:43Yeah, I'm afraid to say that some of it as well. And I'm not saying I am not saying this that this is bad in itself, but a lot of it is under the banner of evidence informed, right? Research informed practice. A lot of it comes under that banner of, OK, we've designed this PowerPoint, which includes all the elements of what great teaching is from an evidence-based perspective. So for example, at the start of every PowerPoint retrieval quiz, listen, I get it. I get it. But as we've said, and listen, it may help students to pass exams better. It genuinely might. If we've got this exam-focused system, then drilling them with stuff, right, over and over again, less and after lessen, it may, probably will actually give them a better chance of getting better results in certain exams. It will. But we're talking here about what is great teaching,

1:44:45what are they learning, what experience are they having, what variety are they having? Yeah, what experience are they having with that teacher? Are we going to say that when a teacher goes off on this amazing tangent, OK? All right. What are they doing? Mark, why are we not, that example, Ali, don't you? When this teacher goes off on this tangent, or this teacher is in the middle of this activity that's really going well and he wants to do another 20 minutes, then someone comes in the room and goes, why haven't you got your visualiser on? Why haven't they all got the booklets out? Why aren't you underlining on page three of that booklet reading out? Seven minutes and a couple less than a minute and a half. I hope to think that the majority of teachers know that this presenting tile as a teaching is a load of waffle and it's completely... Don't let me go, mate. And I think the issue is, as soon as you are training teachers to book on presenters, then the majority of teachers are now presenters and that's what will be taught across the country rather than teaching.

1:45:48I think the majority of those experience heads, those experienced people who are in education, they know for a fact what's right and wrong from what they're seeing in education so far. Don't give me wrong, some people might have lost their ways, etc. But I think if you're being honest to yourself and you're seeing that in a classroom, I know my school is very anti-that. It's very anti-listened. We sit these are important things, routines. You've got your retrieval practice, you've got those things, but it's up to you how you do it. Listen, there's these PowerPoints on the staff drive, but if you want to change it, if you want to add your own thing, if you want to teach it in your way, in your style, I'm not going to constrict you to that. If you're teaching in that way and style when it works, or if it doesn't work, you are that person to reflect on it and to make your own changes in your own development as a teacher. Like I think that craft of teaching is so important. And especially me in my early career, I want to try all these sorts of different things.

1:46:50I want to give it a go if it works, if it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. But that's important for me as a professional to put myself, put my foot in it, and then to go, okay, how can I actually improve that? How can I actually go on and make it better? How can I make that more influential for this person in the class? You know, I think that's what you're losing. But I think it stems from university as well. I think there's from experience at uni, there are some teachers, either an amazing, amazing, a professional historian, my history teacher, my history teacher to teach you how to teach history. His name was David Engeljue, absolutely unreal. He's an absolute legend. He would show you how to teach in his way, which was like coming and dressed up as a whatever, like as King Everyday with like, oh, he's got coconuts to like, it's in simple horse, like that's the best way. He's an amazing person. Exactly, but then I've instilled that. Like I'm still a pro. And that makes it memorable for the kids, you know?

1:47:51It's not just about getting exam results about making school memorable. And I think then you have other teachers, and I saw other teachers, other sort of lecturers who were not teaching in that way, who were not teaching in like an experimental, teaching practice kind of way. It was in this PowerPoint generation of these, other five killer things that you need to have every single time. And that makes it boring, that makes it not exciting, that makes it not as passionate, not as crafty as it should be. And that's not crafting a bad way, you're crafting a good way. Yeah. About how to help people. I mean, of course it can, it can, naturally, it can go the other way, like in the 90s, you know, probably went to the other extreme of you've got to have these jazz hands, cards, sorts, every lesson and doing that. Early two times, you can go the other way. But I feel like we've gone the other way now. I feel like we've actually drifted the other side of it. It's like, no, I'm gone. Which just let teachers just give teachers a little bit of autonomy,

1:48:52trust, you know, let them get on with it. And and have a look what the results are at the end and see how the kids respond, see how they enjoy it, especially at key stage three. Year seven, I always say to the year sevens, I teach. It's like, it's start the year, say to them, look, what I want to get the end of the year is you to turn around to me and say, I love history. That's, I love history. Okay. I love the lessons. I love learning about history and I love history. Yeah. That's what I say to the year seven. Now, in some schools and trusts, I'd be kicked out the building for that. All right. I'm just not not not that, but just that. Okay. But, you know, I don't care because that's what that's what I believe. Right. At that age, that's you're trying to instill that. Now that doesn't mean that you're not treating things seriously. It doesn't mean that you don't have a curriculum. It doesn't mean that you don't have objectives that you want to achieve. It doesn't mean you have content you need to cover, and etc, etc, etc.

1:49:52But it's just that freedom to deliver in the way that you feel best. It's the freedom to go on a tangent. It's the freedom to change the activity. It's the freedom to plan how you want to plan and ditch your plan and change to a different one. It's the freedom to say I'm not going to use the branded PowerPoint today. I'm just going completely off-piece. It's the freedom to say, let's do a battle of Hastings, reenactment on the field. It's the freedom to say I'm going to put a crown on and do blind date 1066. I didn't even do that. I called it telling me to put whatever. I didn't even do that. Whatever it is. The song classics in that. Don't get rid of it. I used to get rid of the 1066 blind date. No, I was told I had to get rid of the event known as storming the staff room. So what I used to do is use the storm the past few. And there's this genius. So I used to get the kids built up through the whole French Revolution. We're going to storm the staff room guys. We're going to do it. We're going to storm the staff room. You're going to go into the staff room. Storm the staff. Not all the questions I've got to place. And the whole irony of the past few is it wasn't really stormed. The gate the gate would die. And they surrendered. And the whole thing is being blown up in proportion. So the kids build it up to like, we're going to storm the staff.

1:50:54We're going to storm the staff room. And then boom, I just let them into the staff room. And as soon as they get inside, they go, what now? And they're too free to do anything. So they sort of like, they sort of look at each other. And we're like, what could you do? And it goes, this is the staff room. You storm the staff room. Congratulations. And it's such a naughty climax. And the genius of it is, is that it got to a stage that became an annual event that one of my colleagues walked in to go to the toilet just to run. It was, oh god, it's that time of the year. Is he storming the staff room? All right, they went until a member of staff completed. And then the event no one is storming the staff room. Most start. And I'm like, fricking the revolution. I mean, to be fair, that is an extra to be fair, JP. That is a pretty, so I wasn't going there. I was just going for a little bit. I'm going, let's cover my year 10. Would you go back to the school? I think that's okay. I can do that one as well. You know, right, right, right, right. I mean, yeah, I have done things like that. And being told off. But so of course, all he says, I like to experiment. I like you. I mean, I want, you know, I know. I think you're charged with creating a curriculum

1:51:54that's at the art and yet you create that curriculum. And somebody goes, here's an old academy. Here's this. And here's this part. You know, and you go just going to say, just going to say, everyone watching on Facebook and YouTube. Thanks very much indeed. Do give us a like and do share it. You know, really appreciate all the comments tonight and everybody sort of watching along. And hopefully you've enjoyed the chat. And last point I wanted to just briefly touch on before we go. The other thing that this lived in report. And by the way, you can find this. If you follow teacher taught radio on socials, you know, we've put the report on there. So you can find it on there on Facebook or X or wherever else linked in. And the other thing they've said is, all schools to be required to introduce flexible working policies. Now, sure, but it just seems like the limitation to that is go home during your PPA. That's as far as they've got, right, in this whole flexible working idea. Gotta be more radical. We're going to have to be more radical, you know, with flexible working.

1:52:59Now, how you do that? I keep coming back to my point. We're going to have to I'm afraid. If you want to have true flexible working, you are going to have to change the system. And you can't have, you might not be able to have the best of the best. If you want to have a sustainable teacher workforce, you cannot have this every second, every minute, every hour of teaching has to be world class. Right? Listen, you might not be able to have that and have this flexible working that you want. And you know what, I'm fine with that personally. I'm fine with that. We need realistic expectations of teachers in my opinion. Ollie. Hi, I completely agree with you. I think I think that there needs to be a bit more realism when it comes to the classroom. And there needs to be an understanding that there needs to be time in place, which is flexible for people. Flexible. Like I feel horrible. What's that mean? No, right. Flexible work. What's the meaning? The one thing that makes me quite sad is a lot of teachers lose a lot of time with their own kids.

1:54:01You know, they lose the time to go and see their school production. They lose the time to go and see their own child succeeding like swimming. And to support them. And that is something that is undoubtedly a terrible, a horrible sacrifice to the job in some occasion. So I think things like that, I think allowances for family allowances for circumstance should be in place in all schools. There should be something like that that's the client. Should be as well. This whole guilt to still this big guilt trip around absence in teaching. There's a massive guilt trip thing there of, you know, well, where I was so and so yesterday or whatever it is, you know, and part of that comes from all the teachers having to pick up the slack, which isn't the isn't the teacher who's not there as fault. It's the system, it's the school, it's all those things. It's not the person who's missing as fault. I mean, they're just doing what they should be doing, by the way, often, which is prioritizing themselves and their own well-being and health,

1:55:04right, and their own family life, whatever it is, whatever the reason is. And yet the thing is, you know, you know, they've had quite a few days off or, you know, I've had to cover them 20 times this year or whatever. And you know, you can't blame somebody also for saying that. But like I said, it's not necessarily the person's fault who's sort of in that, you know, but I don't know. It's just it's something that I think is there culturally within teaching quite a lot that, you know, I don't know what you guys think about that. But I back up with Ollie said I had a bit of an epiphany as a father, and you sometimes feel as if you're a terrible parent, but I, you know, you had to commentate or error on from business. I can't just walk out of a class and say I'm going to my child's sports day. And I've seen one of my children's sports day and they're 10 years old, and I have their regret now that I have not spent enough time with my own children. In fact, it used to be that Sunday afternoon's, except I would say I've got school work to do. And that became a normal thing.

1:56:09That was partly one of the reasons my relationship with my wife broke down. And also I've lost time with my children. And I saw very well those people out there pontificate and say, and a family holiday is not the rest of it. I can't just take a week and say, I'm taking my child off to centerports for the first time. I can't take my children off now for a cheaper holiday in September, way other people can. And there's a lot of sacrificing. And yeah, one time I did, I had a PPA, not PPA, but a free time from year 11 going. And I went to the head teacher. And partly because I had this to a limit to me about the guilt. And I guilt if I walk out, I walked out of school one, one, 30 or so. I had a free period of the afternoon. And as I was walking out the door, there was an invisible force, a kind of social visible force saying, am I okay to do this? And it literally was like a barrier to me leaving the school building to like, am I going to be judged? Are people watching me? Are the kids watching me? And I felt that even when I was there, I thanked the head teacher the next day and he says, you should have done that a long time ago. So part of it was me. Part of it was me and my expectations and not letting the kids that I teach

1:57:13time. But that does mean that sometimes we teachers are sometimes sacrificing some of our own personal lives as some of our own personal relationships. And again, it is a horrible, horrible thing when you get people criticizing you for you not working hard enough for their child. When sometimes I think I'm working harder as a teacher with other people's children at the detriment of my own. And that is the sacrifice that some teachers have to make. And especially some young, young mothers, your teachers, you know, it's not a, it's not a female, I mean 75% of the teaching profession is, and I, again, you take other industries and there are a lot better, you take paternity leave. It's an absolute utter disgrace, the time that fathers get off in teaching. And they would say, yes, we get 13 weeks holidays, not the rest of it, but that's not part of the time. Other people have time and they can take people away. We don't get that week appointments. I've had colleagues of mine. You were told, move your appointment. You know, people in your mission from cancer and stuff being told to move appointments because it's inconvenient. You know, I'm sorry, but

1:58:16people's health and families have to be the two most important thing. And I think a lot of us teachers sacrifice both health and family. And many who have left the profession would say, that is the actual reasons and they reach a point where they go, why am I doing this? Because the time you don't get back, I won't get the time back with my children, I have to live with that. But I can live with that if I knew that the job I was doing, I was appreciated with, but it turns out I wasn't appreciated as much as I probably should have been. So what am I doing it for? For right, guys, we are out of time. Thank you very much. Everybody is tuned in. We'll be back again Thursday night. We're points of view. Got plenty of other shows this week as well. Just check out the YouTube channel if you want to catch any more. Thank you. Massive shout out to everyone who's watching on YouTube and Facebook. Drop a like on the video. Drop a share on it. Thanks very much for tuning in. Elaine, thank you for your vulnerability, JP. True. Just been honest. True. We're all about it on here. That's all we've been doing it. Teacher, fix all. Good chat. Cheers, cheers, Paul. And yeah, everyone watching on any of a platform.

1:59:25Thanks so much. And anybody who's watched this back. Yeah, we'll be back again, as I say, very, very soon. Massive shout out against Hashtag Learn and Make You Afers. You've been listening to Teachers Talk Radio. Tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org. We look forward to hearing from you next time on Teachers Talk Radio.