Are Toulouse and Bordeaux the greatest club sides in the world?

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Hello, welcome back to The Rock, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times.

The last 16 of the Champions Cup is done and dusted. We've got the quarter-final line up to look

ahead to this coming weekend plus the start of the Women's Six Nations. Welcome along. My name is

Alfie Reynolds, alongside me in studio on a bank holiday Monday. Look at the work ethic you'd love

to see. Is Alex Lowe and Elgin Oldman morning lads? Morning. Good morning. How are we?

Really good. Good Alex, you look like you've come in like an old-fashioned all-blacks jersey.

Today we'll have actually for a midweek game against a Ponteport Abertillary Combined 15.

I have. Without, yeah, it's actually from a company that my, I've got a mate who has started

off his own rugby jersey company. I wasn't intending on plugging it, but now you've mentioned

it, give it Alfie Old Novo and a lot of the jerseys are based on like, yeah, classic old

OK, nice shirts. This is just the, yeah, old black ones. The old black ones. No, I like it a lot.

You guys were both over the weekend at various last 16 games in the Champions Cup. We'll look

ahead as I mentioned to the quarterfinal lineup, which looks really tasty. This coming weekend,

the Women's Six Nations and we're also going to be having a chat with Mark Palmer. He was at the

Edinburgh game in Dublin on Sunday and he's also there in Glasgow for their win over the balls

on Saturday and absolutely torrential conditions as well. No, you two actually can get out of this

one quite easily, but last week on the pod, because you weren't on myself, Will and Charlie,

we're kind of saying we're waiting for the quarterfinals really in the Champions Cup, aren't we?

But were we unfair? Alex, did the last 16 go past certainly in our expectations? Many people's

expectations. I think so. And I think part of what was so special about this weekend was what

it has set up. So that unquestionably what, what we're waiting for in the quarterfinal weekend is,

it is part of the conversation. So the kind of the two best teams in France meeting the two best

teams in England. Yeah, Elgin was on the French double header and your

socials, you know, anyone who's been to knockout games in France, the colour, the vibrancy of the

colour in Toulouse and Bordeaux, like it just reinforces that either jeopardy, be the tribalism

you get in this competition. And I thought in the games that weren't close, so pretty much

your Elgin's two games, the standard of rugby on show from the two French teams was other

worldly. It was just as close to perfect rugby as you'd ever want. So you didn't get, you didn't

get the humdinger contest, but you've got, you've got something really special. I thought Friday night

in Northampton, St. Caster was, was a riot and just loads of fun. The skill level was incredible.

I was at Barth, Saracens, which was a fascinating game in its own right. I think really only

Quinn's sale was a, was a diamond, you're too long stormers, we've got to talk about how that

one ended. Like there was so many storylines, there was jeopardy, there was tension, there was

tribalism, and it's set up a quarter final weekend that is thrilling. There'll be some sizzling

games there. So yeah, I think you were a bit mean on it, but the Champions Cup does have its

issues. The reason we love it is for the weekend we've just had the weekend that's coming,

and that's why we give the organisers grief because it takes far too long to get there without

this sense of tribalism and excitement because it doesn't matter enough early on, and now when

it really matters, you see it, and that's what makes this competition so special. As Alex mentions

Elgin, to be fair, the games you were at, to lose Bristol and Bordeaux Leicester were really,

really one-sided affairs, but I look, Northampton 49 cast 41, Barth 31, Saracens 22,

two long 28 stormers 27, Glasgow 25, Bulls 21, Lentz to 49, Edinburgh 31, all of those games,

I think a lot closer, certainly than I thought they were going to be. Yeah, I think it all came

from that opening Friday night game because casts probably have a reputation for not

travelling very well and not being that first. They were pockets handfuls of cast traveling fans,

that must be really select club of cast fans that were travelled to Franklin's Gardens on a Friday

night, but the fact that they went so close, one thing that shows is that it started the weekend

in such a positive mood and it just kept going there after. But I think, subsequently,

you look at the Toulouse Bordeaux results and the instinct is to go, oh, France is just so much

better in England, but it's not, it's just that Toulouse and Bordeaux are better than everyone else.

We are living in the duopoly now of the two greatest clubsides in the world in the first two main

provincial centres outside of Paris in French rugby. They are just better than everyone else and

we'll get on to it shortly, but the last two, three seasons, it's been about them and everyone

else in European rugby. I did think reading Will Collier's column, Friday and Saturday's paper,

a brilliant column and it stands, I'd go back and read it if you haven't read it, fantastic

perspective on life and food in French rugby, but I read that and I knew that Castro were going to

rock up and I've been to play with plenty of Castro away games where they haven't and they left

they've left key players at home and they've decided to focus on the on the league and all of that,

they were up for it and it made it a brilliant contest because they had a point to prove,

the Henry Pollock Basketball celebrations and they were getting, they were finding motivation

from the crap food laid on for them in the Northampton hotels as Will had explained on the rock,

like they just, they found some motivation and they went for it and it made a great opening and

I thought it really set the tone for the round 16. And then we saw it again in the game,

you were at in terms of Barth Saris where that game in the Prem a few weeks ago was an absolute

demolition and hell of a lot closer. Yeah, loads and actually similar start in the Sarasons were

10-0 up and they were 10-0 up a half time on Saturday, they've had a 10-0 lead and like lead

game couple of weeks back and then collapsed. Collapsed to the point where Mark McCall was

accusing the players of giving up openly questioning that the fight of the team, what do they really

want? Well, he got the reaction, he's actually had the reaction in the last two weeks because they

gave a really good account to themselves against Northampton at the Tottenham Stadium just lost.

They had the wind behind them in the first half and used it well, 10-0 up, dominating the set

piece, winning scrum penalties and they were in a good position but Barth just have depth,

they have experience, they understand how to win these games and they chose to play into the

wind first half, they had the wind behind them. It was a strong, a strong wind second half

but they also brought on Thomas Tutoy at the half time who fixed the scrum issues immediately

and that just denied Sarasons a route back into the game and it's on the 10 minutes, it's 14-10

to Barth and Sarasons never gave in, they didn't do what they did two weeks ago, they kept

banging away and they carved Barth open, they get to the line and they're one pass away from

scoring to retake the lead and Marka Riccioni's pass, it's just behind Andy Oniama Christie,

sort of shoulder height, he can't hold it, spills, two passes, Cuccusing is away

and they score length of the field and that 14-point swing was the defining moment in the game

that was sort of based on Thomas Tutoy coming on the scrum turns and then the wreck is lively

and Sarasons don't go away but the moment that the Barth scored from the length of the field,

the gap's too big and it was a proper contest and Barth, we sit right behind the away

coaching team and analysts and I took as much fascination just watching Mark McCall because

this was the last game that really mattered for him. Well I was going to say that's part of the

thing here right for Saras is they're out of the top four race basically, not maybe not mathematically

but they're not going to get top four in the preem, they're out of Europe and Mark McCall who's

been this guy that has been there through an incredible period of success, it is just kind of

petering out. I think they've got, they're still a team capable of delivering on a one-off day,

they beat Toulouse, they played really well I thought on Saturday they're just not as good as

Barth which is no disgrace in English context but as the wreck is jumping and they've scored

100 meters try I looked just in front of me to the right at Mark McCall who was emotionless

outwardly as he often is and unmoved but his mind must have been going in a million miles

an hour because they have, this was all they had left to play for and they were unlikely to win it,

August talked about the powerhouses in France and Barth and Northampton are the best teams in

England so they've always unlikely to win it but this was all they had left and speaking to him

afterwards the question was put to him about well that's the end of your relationship with the

Champions Cup and he sort of took a moment and he said I hadn't really thought of it like that

and he was part of the Ulster team that won it in 99 injured for the final but helped with the trophy,

won it three times as director of rugby with Saras and then he said well we framed the rest of the

season by trying to build some experience into the younger lads so that I've got something to

hand over in the summer to Brendan Venter and that's that's it that's where they are that's where

they are that's the season done. I'm glad Alex mentioned that the Mark McCall has a player thing

because when the coaches have story with this competition as well it adds to the magic and the

gravitas that we talk about the history of this competition, Pat Lamb being another one who won

it is captain with Northampton in 2000 so whenever people say to him are you going to rest players

for this trip to South Africa for this game against Toulouse that people aren't expecting you to win,

he'll always say no we're going to go out at full throttle because I know what this tournament's

about because I've been there and I've done it and I've won it. 100% and Mark described it as a

magic competition, a great competition and Alex Sanderson at Sale was making a similar point in

the week about you know a guy who's played in it about the that they don't want they hate sending

weak teams abroad and they've he feels they've been forced into making these kind of decisions but

they don't want to and as you say yeah the players who've experienced the the magic of it as

Mark McCall calls it particularly when you get to this part of the of the competition they you know

they know it's it's it's it is something special it's a competition that delivers that kind of

cross-border cross-culture tribalism that no other competition does. And actually on the point of

teams rotating in it often being a problem we saw what can be so good about when the South African

teams don't rotate because both I mean the balls against Glasgow who are a really good team will

speak to Mark more about them in just a moment gave it a really good go and then let's do the

two-long stormers because what a game by the way yeah what a crazy crazy ending and what an

opportunity for the stormers to have won away in in France like a great opportunity. Yeah I mean

they we have to say they blew it yeah I mean to like to the end of the game I think I might get some

of the timeline of this wrong but like with a minute left or virtually the clock in the red like

both teams turned the ball over there was then a knock-on that was going to give too long a

scrum which you thought then would end the game but they came back for the high tackle from Marne

Nano stormers kicked to the corner even though they had the tee on fine bourbon Gormazzouli was

thinking about kicking it and he has a boot on him by the way I remember watching the game a

couple of years ago that South Africa played at Twickenham against Wales where one of these matches

that they they bring up North and they sell loads of tickets at Twickenham and I was watching him in

the warm-up bang over penalties from like 55 metres he's got that in his locker but they decide not

to go for the points they kick to the corner they go through the phases they're in a great position

they don't opt for a drop goal and eventually they then get held up over the line and that's the game.

Well first thing if the tee's on I think you'll I think you have to take the goal that's my I would

have thought that was my understanding of it I didn't know whether they thought the penalty was

in a different spot to where it was I'm not sure I'm not too sure but they're also Nano got

symbion so too long defending with 13 yeah and yeah stormers kick for kick for touch they rumble

from 25 out and they're on the goal line and they're pounding away and I'm just I'm watching

it in the stand at the wreck thinking well just just drop the goal like there's no pressure

you've had enough phases that that too long of having to defend the pick and go like they have to

so there's a lot they'll have no one charging it's a chip shot it's a chip shot from in front

you've got to take it and they get over the line and all involved who seems to sort of manoeuvre

his legs underneath John dobson wasn't happy they thought that he was offside didn't they

the stormers I think yeah and I thought that's what they would be studying on the TMO but they

were just looking for a grounding the drop the drop goal issue it's something that obviously

we talk about all the time when people near the trial line I think modern players are so unfamiliar

with it as a method of scoring but they probably view it as a really low percentage option

whereas they probably view the pick and go as there's the more likely method of scoring whereas

you know there would have been a time where players would score more drop goals than tries in

that in the game in the season that the well cut in the quarterfinal in Cardiff the France New

Zealand quarterfinal you know if New Zealand if Dan Carter takes lives up a drop goal they

went they win the they win the quarterfinal against France in 2007 but they just don't even think

of it and they got loads of criticism then for being almost like two like with you're like we

will just score tries three years four years earlier in the one a well cut on the back of

and then one grand slam on the back of drop goals it's it's sort of wild really that George Ford

is the sort of seemingly the only front line ten for whom that will be a genuine option like

Finn Russell doesn't we go drop goals either had it a few years ago didn't we have Finn Russell

where it became a common ball game it was where it was a big thing ahead of it would you kick a drop

goal I think Finn Russell is like I don't know I've ever kicked a drop goal in my whole career

so no yeah why not it's such a great but as you say I guess it can be a 20 way you are but in this

particular situation with the quality of ten who's going to be taking the drop goal and the lack of

pressure that there would be because they were camped on their line that was a high percentage

attempt I think it's very different to see where Ford got charged down at Murrayfield where

like they were Scotland were defending really aggressively England kind of botched the whole

build up and he should have pulled out of it was as we know I don't think any of that would have

been a problem for for stormers and then they'd have gone through but once again the South African

teams just failed to go deep in in the Champions Cup and also they'd put themselves in a position

to win the game having it looked like they were going to be out of it they scored a try later on

make it a one point game they get themselves down in scoring position to win it and yeah but that's

what yeah you know that's what these great games deliver these moments you know sometimes you

think the game has to be like that for 80 minutes it often doesn't it just needs it needs those

moments where everyone's holding their breath what's going to happen next and you know you could

you could you could talk about the 14 points swing at the wreck as being a moment that just defined

a game and that's what you remember you know props would remember Thomas do toy and everything

he did but you know what I mean yeah yeah and it's that everything builds to this crescendo and

he's over the line and and everyone's holding their breath who who's what who's won this game it's

yeah magic I love it is the counter argument to everything we've said and the positive stuff to

do the Champions Cup encapsulated in Harlequin's sale well in some ways is that half empty stadium

yeah but I'm playing sort of hold them as the exception that yeah prove the rule really they

it's sort of slightly odd the the pool stages were slightly odd in that like to lose end up

being ranked so low quins and sale who are really struggling in the Prem both end up making it

round to 16 now sailer through to the quarters and you know you don't have to be flying in the

Prem to to get through as Northampton showed last year but Northampton are a better team than both

of these clubs and yeah it definitely gives light to the EPCR sort of view that the competition is

selling out everywhere and it's brilliant everywhere I thought it was really strong with big crowds

in a lot of in a lot of games as we can but that yeah it's two poor teams in a stadium where the ticket

prices were not not cheap like the worst seats were still 50 quid they're playing again in a couple

of weeks in the game in in the Prem for which season ticket holders already have in their in their

package neither these teams are going to are going to win the the competition which I don't think

should matter but I think if you're feeling so negative about your club as quins fans currently are

I'm not surprised there were six seven thousand on top with Harlequin's it's more about

their performance last year than this year because I think a lot of debate is with how low they

finish in the table last year should they've made it into the elite European competition this year

because this year actually third play they went to Laura Sheldon one so once you're in the competition

they they did great things to get that far look at too long as an example they're 11th in the top

14 this season they're sort of in that similar zone to Harlequin's it's just that so much of the

air has come out of Harlequin season since that Laura Sheldon in January which no one saw coming

it's just we talk about how a competition can offer a different competition can offer so much

respite and the likes of Northampt as you say can can can go so deeper on competition when

they're going badly another one but the air has just gone out of Harlequin so much that even that

didn't matter anymore one really quick newsy point just off the back of this game which I

think is is worth noting particularly given the fact that a lot of the time Alex we're we're

covering England in international periods is Luke Kandicki's injury and Bevin Rod and Bevin Rod

in particular I look at Hooker because we spoke about this through the six nations and an

issue of depth there Jamie George was being asked to do a lot of work again which was like

throwback to 2023 World Cup wasn't it what do you think it means for Steve Borth with that trip

South Africa coming up in terms of England's Hooker options well I think he was going to have to

do this anyway because he had evidently lost faith in Luke Kandicki's line at work if nothing

else and partly the sort of his discipline and tendency to give away those no arm tackled

chopped tackle penalties which costing and a lot in the six nations I think he was going to have

to look alternatives anyway bridge the gap to the next generation and now he has to so it'll

probably be a good thing for England in a way that the interesting thing is who who is top of the

of the list obviously Theo Dan came on the came off the bench for for services he's been in

around England now for for years again another hooker who set peace isn't trusted but you look

at the way that Kepitur pelotu plays I would have thought he's top of the list I know Nathan

Jibulu really useful to have a hooker who can play back row as he has done you know and maybe in

the world of hybrid diversity the kind of shout a shout Brits type player who you could you could

include or deal for you who could cover two positions could be really valuable in a world cup

set up but I think to pelotu you know they they wanted to secure him as English they are a few

he's on their their kind of rapid pathway he's playing more now towards the end of this season

so I wouldn't be too surprised if he benefits from Kandicki's injury and then and maybe

you know Craig Wright who won the undertone his world cup in that same team as Henry Pollock and

Archie McParlin they they like him obviously Nathan Jibulu but I think I think probably Kepitur pelotu

yeah I think he's probably the front of the queue Gabriel Ogre might have my have an option

yeah and again similar type of player he maybe isn't as he's not going to start the game at six

he's the type of player that if he had to fill in in a back row position like six or seven later on

in the game in terms of hybrid then the ability to do that as well I think yeah great the fascinating

element though for a player like Gabriel Ogre and Kepitur pelotu is how much is there much

much more of the Theodan mold of overhooker the sort of dancine like super super athlete highly

skilled wants to to play in the open spaces and create things and I don't know if that's the

hooker that Steve Borthwick particularly wants in in his pack Alfie Barbies got the practice

throwing again yeah yeah I mean like you know he his move from the from hooker to back row was

sort of engineered by Eddie Jones he he wasn't that keen to stay at hooker but if Eddie Jones

is told him he needs to stay hooker while he was at wasp so he probably would have done but he

went through that period his transition from an under 20s hooker to a senior back row largely came

because wasp needed him to play back row at that point so he just he made his break through into

the premiership into senior rugby as a back rower and then Eddie Jones told him to stay there

and so actually like you do wonder had he remained a hooker he might have been in that perfect

sweet spot now to to be the guy it's rare for it to go that way as well because we're a lot of

custom now seeing sixes turning into two I think you know David lakes an example of someone that

kind of moved forward to hooker and so obviously you know he did so well captain whales and the six

nations well so yeah strange for it to have been done the other way around and it helps a lot

on academies now as well I think I was going to say you hear about so many players that start in

the centres and then they slowly come it's like a black hole that draws them into the front row

if I can flag a just a couple of pieces in terms of the hooker situation in England Bansi has been

writing about to a piloto and then the back end of last week we had an interview of Nathan Jibulu

as well so go and check them out if I can finish off on terms of the last 16 I think it's worth

just highlighting again or or sitting with the point that you mentioned right at the top Alex of

the style of rugby that to lose and Bordeaux are playing at the moment which you watched front and

centre album in terms of the way in which they approach the game the attacking flare fairly even

first opening to the period between Leicester and then as we've seen so often these teams do Bordeaux

bang bang bang and they're out of sight by half time it's a combination of things it's you know

you go back to the 1980s when to lose the sort of not the first great to lose team but when to lose

became great again after a long period of drought and the Pierreville Pro School that still informs

everything to lose now it's all about finding space whether that's out wide whether that's in the

middle it's all about just anticipating where the ball is going to be and where you need to be

to get into space from an offload I think Pierreville Pro doesn't refer to them as offloads they're

all passes it's just whether it's in contact before contact whatever and that informs what to lose

do what France do and what what Bordeaux are doing right now it helps obviously they've got brilliantly

talented players in forwards and backs you can do all of that also helps that they can win collisions

over the game line which enables them to get forward and to do that but yeah you're just looking

throughout that Bordeaux and to lose team you know it'd be obviously it's impossible for ever to

happen but that individually they're probably better than than the France national team because

they're you know club teams the two best club teams in the world the way they go at it it can just

be unstoppable I think the the figure on Sunday at the Stadshab and Delmar was that Bordeaux had

made 27 offloads and Leicester had made two and Jeff Piling said afterwards I think the average

in a pen game is nine so you know it's it's a different style of playing but once they get going

it's just so difficult to stop but it's when you explain it theville Pro style it's it's so

it sounds so simple it's just go forward and if you can't go forward move it to space where you can

go forward which is just sounds really basic but it's a it's a mindset thing so you'll often see

to lose in Bordeaux that particularly the big carriers they'll be going forward if they get you

know if they engage in the duel they will just shovel the basketball pass out out the back

it's not about you they just don't want to die with the ball because if you die with the ball if you

if you create a ruck you give the defense a chance to set so the whole thing is just about

playing fluid rugby keeping the ball alive going forward and and finding space and if if you

can't move forward you move the ball even if it's what looks like an unconventional shovel pass

or a little like one handed over the top or whatever it is to then find to then find space where

you then can go forward and that's it's that's really it but it's a total mindset shift from

that to the kind of pod work organized structure of playing three phases and then box kick it's

it's you know not the not that you don't see these teams box kicking when they need to but it's

it's a it's a mindset difference and I don't know really why that can't become all rugby like

why does rugby have to be this sort of such an organized structured sport a lot of it I think

it's just it's coaching control do you think it and do you think you need a team to win a world cup

where that is the way in which they play to be able to set the standards for everyone else

we'll definitely help do you see a lot of teams with you know and world cups historically not one

yes that way that piece kick pressure pressure pressure affects so much

because then with pressure with with jeopardy throwing the offload or the pass out of contact

or shoveling the ball backwards because you trust someone's going to be there that takes the risk

of that grows because the jeopardy is so much greater but but yes but we're seeing teams winning

Europe playing like that we've we've seen France play like that yeah obviously they've had

ebbs and flows but we've seen that be their ethos for the past 40 years and I think there are

there are acolytes in Britain of that velpro way there are sort of school boy courses where you

can learn to play this this freedom of movement style but I think if you spoke to a lot of these

coaches they tell you that there's just still a lot of resistance in this country there is coaching

resistance yeah coaching resistance to fully fully buying into such men well Ben Pegna who

we've had on the pod is is one of is one of those he will he go yeah and coaches he's he spends

time in in France with Pierre Velpro he he learns the methodology and he he was a real believer in it

and it produces highly skilled players but it's also not one dimensional if you think back to the

top stadium the Champions Cup final when Toulouse beat Lentster my abiding memory of Toulouse winning

that game is Antoine Dupont playing like an auxiliary bat rower doing what is necessary winning

turnovers so it's not it's not a one-dimensional high-risk style of rugby it's it's and it's not

and I think that's the other point they don't see it as a risk obviously the the bigger the game

the more jeopardy there is but they don't see it as playing risky rugby it's it's rugby whereas I

think there's a mindset in in the UK that that actually it's safer to play a more ordered structured

game because you're you might cut out you leave let's scope for for an error but I think you know

you look at that the way the Toulouse won that final it was about it required other elements to

their game but that's what I mean it's it's not a one size fits it's a it's a mindset thing of

when it's on you just don't you you back your skill set and you look for space and you try to keep

the ball off the floor because that's what rugby should be and because of the man in which France

Toulouse Bordeaux can strike so quickly from turnover ball they'd actually tell you that kicking

chasing and defending is a huge part of the game because that's how they win the back and it's

just score before you've been able to do anything about it yeah I was going to say it's still like

good set piece good kicking game is still in put like you're not going to be the best team in

Europe and win the Champions Cup without that but so much of their identity comes from the other

stuff which maybe we're more resistant to in in this part of the world it's like a cricketing

analogy where someone who is a T20 Slogger might say but I can only do that because I've got a solid

defense you know which is what you know Viv Richards with a setback in the day or I've heard Jacob

Ethel say as well you know is when he's forward defenders in working order that's when he knows

you can also Slogs week for six yeah well our Toulouse and Bordeaux the best two teams remaining in

the Champions Cup well one side that may be standing in their way or would certainly look to

challenge them could be Glasgow next up we're going to have a chat with Mark Palmer our man

north of the border to reflect on Glasgow's victory over the Bulls their tilt at the URC and the

Champions Cup and also Edinburgh putting up a much better fight against Lenta the many expected

Mark on the way and then the other side of that we'll look ahead to the quarterfinals and T up

the women's six nations this week so Mark great to have you back on the pod straight back from

Dublin on to the right this is the sort of commitment that that we like to the pod we appreciate it

no race for the record but always a pleasure look Mark I want to get onto Glasgow in just a moment

but you made the journey back from Edinburgh's game against Lenta a tighter match than perhaps

you expected yeah very much so I mean if you if you'd said to me yesterday morning that there was

going to be an 80 point game at the Viva then we'd definitely been feeding the worst but no it was

it was a very odd affair you know slightly ridiculous in places 12 tries yeah Lenta

the handing at least three of them on a plate to Edinburgh so Edinburgh managed to score I think

five tries without really having any attack a couple of moments of individual brilliance particularly

from Darcy Graham but at one point you know around the hour they're actually ahead in the game

and you're thinking what are you starting here but you know that lends to a power game really

kind of came to the forelay on and we ended up with the result that we thought we would but

you know certainly margin wise it was a lot more respectable and a lot more hard fought than you

know probably anticipated what did you make of Lenta Mark we're about to come on and preview

the court finals that we've got coming up this weekend and no doubt we're going to be waxing

lyrical about to lose and Bordeaux and from our English perspective Bath North Hampton is

really intriguing but what about Lenta a team that are so often thought of as one of the favorites

for this competition but the perception maybe they're not quite the force we've seen in

previous years what did you actually make of them in the flesh yeah you know they've had a real

up and down season generally you know they're really bad start the URC have picked up considerably

since probably around that November test period but again you know they tend to make a struggle

of every game even even the games at the end up winning you know there's some kind of real troughs

and again that was a case yesterday that they don't manage the game as well as as we're so used

to seem from lends their teams in terms of you know just throttling the life out of opponents as I

said they handed three tries on a plate to Edinburgh with Intercepts which is you know you don't

normally you wouldn't have thought from lends so you get that in a season never mind in one half so

you know clearly have still got some excellent individual talent and again when they did go route

one in the second half and turned up the power it was a really kind of formidable weapon

but you know they've got so many big game winners in there I don't see them going the distance

in this competition and I think you know I would expect them to win that quarter final they'll

have enough to beat sail but you then if they run into Glasgow in Scotland in the semi final then

I think that'll probably be the end of the road for them. Glasgow must be delighted to be on the

side of the draw that they're on you talk about lends to not not being the vintage team they

they had another statement winning against the balls that they have too long at home they must be

looking at the other side of the draw with Bordeaux and Toulouse and Bath and Saints thinking this is

this is a prime opportunity. Absolutely and you know it has really opened up for them on the back

of their you know their pool pool campaign and you know that you should get some reward

for a perfect pool campaign with 20 points from a possible 20. Obvious as 15 seeds you know

they're a pretty good side to be in 15th position going into that round of 16 that was a really

hard fought win for Glasgow and I think it was testament to just how many layers they've developed

under Franco Smith particularly probably in the last 18 months that you know obviously have the

kind of crash-bang wall pyrotechnics it was so used to seeing that attacking flier but they

can like like we're talking about with lends so they can go route one as well they can dig it out

they can be just effective as effective on the other side of the ball and that was a real

kind of great determination and kind of foul conditions that saw them through. How much was the

weather a real level of their mark? Yeah I mean it was grim even by Scotston's standards it's

always terrible at Scotston's you know but you know it was it was very windy particularly that

first half when when the bills had the wind at their backs they would have been looking to turn

around with a much healthier leading two points it always felt more than a two-point wind wind sorry

and Glasgow have been very adept you know in both competitions this year at using those conditions

to their advantage they don't kind of they don't have any issue with falling behind they always

back themselves in the second half to then come back you know as they're going to lose and

to know the conditions to know which areas of the pitch to play in and yeah there was a real

sort of composure and control the element to that performance as I said. But Glasgow strike me

mark as a team who you know yes they can use the conditions and the the Toulouse game was

again I was thinking of pretty inhospitable for a team from the south of France but but Glasgow

a team who when the weather turns and if they're playing in sunny springtime conditions can also

thrive they're they're not just a team that rely on inclement weather. Absolutely as I say I think

they've got so many different kind of layers and pieces of armoury to go to now and that you know

that's what all truly great sides and and sides the end of winning competitions have isn't it they

can you know they've got more than one string to their bow that they're not fixed on playing a

certain way and only playing the way that the conditions or the opposition allow them to

you know they're adaptable there you know they've got resilience they've yeah they've got

an all court game that can come out in any in any set of circumstances. How exciting is it Mark

that this is a Glasgow team that you look at now the champions cup the best in Europe

plus South Africa and they really have a shot at winning this competition. It's really exciting and

I think it's you know it is literally unprecedented for a Scottish team to be in that position you

know meanwhile they're also bouncing being their league campaign as well they've got a healthy

lead at the top of the table there so there's a real confidence that they've got the squad

and the capability to kind of go deep in both and you know it is lining up for them you'd think

that's a you know a tough but winnable quarter final against too long and then again they have

their home at least home country advantage for the semi final would be a muddy field for for

a winster so yeah it's all they offer them big games that they're going to have to win but again

they've done that previously in the most difficult circumstances on the road and when they won the league

so yeah what an opportunity to have. How do you when you compare them to or when you look at the

teams remaining how do you view Glasgow within that I think a lot of people would look at Bordeaux

and to lose for example I know to lose a seeding dropped off a bit but arguably is the two best

teams still in the competition but how do you see Glasgow fitting into the picture with these eight

teams remaining. I would think you're right I think Bordeaux and potentially potentially to lose

although Glasgow would probably argue that point given what happened in December but I think those

two on the left hand side of the draw do sit on a plane above everybody else but I think Glasgow

would then be the next the next cab off the rank in terms of as I say that ability to kind of

manage different conditions different contexts and on the road and at home so yeah you know

you would anticipate that the winner is going to come from the other side of the draw but I think

Glasgow should be you know they have every right to think they can be right in that mix.

It's funny isn't it what a couple of months does mark if we look back to November and you think

about Scotland and there were questions that you know not seeing out those big games or the

the collapsing entire Argentina not seeing out the game against the all blacks and then all

of a sudden they've had a six nations where all right I know they lost the last game but I think

you could argue it was their best six nations campaign that we've seen going to the final weekend

with a shot at the title you've got Glasgow that are right at the top of the URC that genuine

contenders in Europe it is is the picture and I appreciate it's a fickle old business and these

things change quickly but the picture pretty rosy at the moment in terms of rugby north of the border.

Hmm I wouldn't potentially go go that far I think the the ESL who would be very grateful for

Glasgow because they're the bit that works and has worked for it for any number of years now

Edinburgh for all we're we're praising them for kind of digging in and showing resilience

yesterday in Dublin this season in general has been another right off for them they've flattered

to see as they just about always do and Scotland as you say you know some encouraging signs and

good results in that competition but you know still it's a mid-table finish maybe that is the

limit of our ambition who you know I would like to think not but no I wouldn't say it's rosy

I would say certainly Glasgow is very rosy but the rest of it probably still lagging well behind

well what Glasgow have to look forward to is that quarter final this weekend mark we really

appreciate you joining the Ruck as always and hopefully you'll be speaking to you quite a lot

over the next few months with with all Glasgow's exploits the positive part of the Scottish game

then we'll say that tremendous thanks very much like

just a quick breather to tell you about today's sponsor Aliands a partner that's all about opening

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Future Fund they've already put over a hundred thousand pounds straight in to community clubs

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so pleasure as always to have Mark Palmer on the pod we might be having him on a lot more

regularly in the next few weeks depending on how Glasgow go in the URC and the Champions Cup so

Alex Elgan finishes off Bath Northampton Glasgow Toulon lends the sale Bordeaux to lose four

really really good matches but is by some distance Bordeaux to lose the most mouthwatering of

all of them we are living in the age of the go on so I mean Bordeaux and Toulouse great cathedrals

are rugby they get 30,000 people to home games they've contested the last two top 14 finals which

does not happen very often that two teams contest two in a row and who's to say they're not going to

contest a third in their own now in the last two Champions cups they will have met in the semi-final

last year which Bordeaux won to win the Champions Cup and Toulouse who won the Champions Cup the year

before that and now we're looking at them meeting in the quarter finals and everyone thinking

that whoever wins will again go all the way so this is yeah like as I said earlier this is the Bordeaux

and Toulouse duopoly of the age they are the two great club teams in the world not just in terms

of the players they have the way they play but also the cities the grounds the love for the game

in those cities you just have to look at the matchups that we could be having on Sunday you've got

Dupont Vlucu, Jalibar Viantamaak, perhaps Chokobar SV Moafana, Penno V Gorg, BLBRA versus Teddy

Toma, Ramos versus Celessi Raiassi and then we haven't even mentioned Miyafu, Flamau, Woki and

Tamafuna up front so everything about it should just be an absolutely spellbinding occasion.

Amazing I mean you did the the double that this weekend just we've spoken on the pod before about

encouraging anyone who can get to a Bordeaux game or Toulouse game to do it but just explain what

the color like they get they get us so early the bands the the flares the flags it's such a special

occasion around the match. Yeah so they're both cities with two grounds they've got the rugby ground

and the football ground. Toulouse they've got the stadurn as well which is obviously a great

grand but it's actually quite small it's only about 20 000 maybe not even that seats so they

upgraded to the stadium to Toulouse which is the football ground that they call it the putty

wembley the little wembley because it looks a bit like the old wembley in a different part of the

city. We got there about two three hours before kickoff and there were a group of people tailgating

in the car park they had prawn on a barbecue they'd been there since 11 a.m. in a way that you just

don't see in other in in Britain quite so much so the atmosphere is just there straight to it

obviously it's a big city it's the grandest rugby club in the world they are the aristocrats

of world rugby so they've got all that history but although very different story you know they've

got two historic clubs but they merged 20 years ago so it's this funny situation where you've got

the great rivals of the age one of them's got 25 bouclade a brand new and a brand new sender seven

European titles and the other ones got one European title and zero top 14 titles all be at the two

clubs that formed them originally do have some national titles going back but in Bordeaux I mean

it's just been what a successful merger it's been over the past 20 years because that city is now

all about rugby you've got the sudden server of Beg mixed with the Stad Bordele side in the north

the Stad Chabandelma I was reading that piece in the Sunday Times about Italian football that

John Foot wrote about his crumbling stadiums I was walking on the Stad Chabandelma I was thinking

this kind of looks like in a crumbling Italian football stadium but it just feels proper old

school proper amphitheatrical as it is that in the old school manner it is they get 32,000

the best gear every week and then for the odd bidgate at big game they'll move up to the football

ground the the Mamu Atlanteque where they can get 42,000 so just the passion within those cities

the support for them the players they have the way they play it's just as good as anything

European rugby has seen ever is there any part of it a shame that it is a quarter final and not

a final or is it to lose messed up the pool stage that you're seeding and it's such a mouthwatering

quarter final who cares well yeah it is a shame but I think we're going to see them play at some

point and in some ways it does open up other really nice narratives so you've got the idea that

as I mentioned earlier the two best in France will meet whoever wins between the two best in

England and on the other side of the draw I mean you mentioned it before we came on air but

that wasn't just Nick your stat when how when was the last time there was a club from

four different countries in there I believe it's only happened twice and the last time was

2002 so yeah we're looking at possibly Glasgow V lengths drawn one side and yeah the best team

in France against the best team in England on the other side yeah so I mean it feels like the

obvious final because they are pretty much the two best teams in Europe but actually having

it this early does open a narrative where we could have Glasgow lengths to through could have

bath or Northampton there as well you know it makes it feel like a proper European competition

and as Mark said as well Glasgow would have something to say about it given what happened in the

pool stages in terms of you know who are to lose in that conversation mind you Sarasund speak to

lose as well yeah the glass the glass going will be fascinating because you know with how close

teams like Thinethi Scarlet's Cardiff have come in Wales such gutting semi-finals they're actually

in a very Welsh way a very wistful reminiscence of oh we all so came so close to winning Europe

and haven't quite a few times those clubs but for Scotland they've only got Edinburgh's near miss

of 2012 when they lost to Ulster by three points in the semi-finals they'd beaten to lose in the

quarterfinals so Scotland perhaps doesn't have that long list of wistful near misses that Wales has

in his competition so now suddenly you've got Glasgow is the great hope and yeah second seed's

maximum points in the pool stage it would be you know some shock if they did go all the way but

they put themselves in the position where it's not beyond the realms of possibility and in

bath Northampton a possible precursor to the prem final at the end of the season I would have

thought so yeah quite it's intriguing that isn't it yeah well just think about to December when

Northampton sent a sort of mid-second string to to the record and one one of the great performances

of the season bath have got such such quality such depth so I asked Fergus Burke about it because

they obviously sounds are played Saints and Bath and back to back weekends and they just see Bath

as being just a physicality that they can bring with the pack they have then the six on the bench

that includes Tom's new toy coming on and Francois van van Vake who came on and made a huge

difference on the other side of the scrum that that physicality gives a platform for Ben Spenser

Finn Russell, Max Jo Moe and Ollulance who dovetail so effectively in midfield they are they are

a force but if there's a team who can work out how to beat them it would be Northampton because

they did it in December what's great about these these potential games is a tease up you know

revenge narratives for later on in season because when when Bordeaux yeah frankly wiped the floor

with Toulouse in last year in last season semifinal they were still hurting about the 59-3 top 14

final defeat and they still haven't beaten Toulouse in that top 14 final because we had the

ridiculous final last season that went to extra time and finished 39-33 so even though they've

done a job on them in Europe there are still you know passions and desires and things that people

want to to get revenge for and it's possible that you know we might have a similar bathroom

hampton storyline later this season as well to finish us off then on the quarter final something

we asked last week head of the last 16 was EPCR be praying for an away win and they got it in

sail against Quinn's but I don't view that as a big shock European knockout you know surprise

it in it really and so if we look at the matches this weekend bath Northampton Glasgow Toulon

lengths to sail Bordeaux Toulouse what is the most likely shock if one is going to come from any of

those matches I think it's Northampton and Bath because I think there's just something about North

ampton in Europe in recent seasons yeah they've been a really good just European team obviously

Toulouse Bordeaux I mean it's you know it's really 50-50 about who could win the fact it's in Bordeaux

tilt it in their direction but it wouldn't really be a shock either way because they're both

so so mammoth whereas yeah if Northampton were to win at the wreck that would

symbolize it be a shock but also something that wouldn't be unlike them to do it yeah as I

as I said they won down there so so well after the autumn international I wonder how much Glasgow

would like storm David to keep blowing through the city for a few more days just to make it as

inhospitable as possible for Toulon as often as lengths to seem to be compared to their normal

standards I don't see them tripping up so yeah it would be Northampton in Bath yeah four really

good matches they will look back on them all on next Monday's pod to finish off Lads women six

nations gets underway this coming weekend France Italy England Island which is happening at

Allianz Stadium Twickenham and Wales against Scotland Elvin England aiming for an eighth six nations

title in a row yes well obviously well we go back what seven months now to that that great day

at Twickenham we're almost 82,000 people watch the Red Roses finally become World Champions

everything a lot of what we thought would happen since then you know entering the sporting firm

and TV appearances book deals those things have happened but now they're getting back to the

nuts and bolts back at Twickenham more than 70,000 tickets sold as it stands in another way it's

the same old story because it's who can anyone stop an English grand slam and you'd probably think no

although there is a likely usual decide to perhaps against France in France on the final weekend

but they've won 33 games in a row and Zoe Stratford who will be absent as a captain Meg Jones taking

over because Zoe Stratford is taking time out one of three players taking time out with pregnancy at

the moment she said an interview with me at the start of the year why don't we go another World Cup

cycle without losing so that would be maybe 66 games without losing but is that that's the

fascinating question I think for this team now in that they had this not getting over the line

at a World Cup for such a long time plus coupled with a home World Cup which we always knew was

going to be mega this team that wasn't losing they won that home World Cup what becomes the motivation

now but by the sounds of it the noise is coming out of the Red Roses campus well let's do it all

over again and John Mitchell has spoken about wanting to be the greatest sports team ever all that

sort of thing yeah for now it's the motivation is that first British Irish Lions women's tour as

well next year which although the fictionalist isn't as grand as the men's one it is something that

the women's game is greatly looking forward to and certainly a lot of players want to be a part of

that it's obviously defending the World Cup title in 2029 in Australia there actually won't be a

huge amount of regeneration for the Red Roses because a lot of the players are of an age where

they'll just still be here in 2029 then obviously this is a long way down the line but it's

interesting to see what happens in the generation after that because actually there are some

question marks over what's coming next after this generation Red Roses actually in under 18

lost to Wales in the under 18 festival last weekend so but that is a long way down the line in

the here and now I don't think it would be a massively bold prediction to say that they might win

66 games in a row which would almost get to a level where it would be one defeating about a 100

matches because they'd won 30 in a row prior to the World Cup to final defeat as well and we

also at the stage with the Red Roses as Madness their first game in seven months since winning the

World Cup but to get 70,000 after all that time into Twickenham with everyone knowing that how

dominant they are that it the support for the Red Roses isn't contingent on jeopardy and on

the level of competition it's it's a very different style of backing for that team than

the England men's team have that as you say Elikildan on posters and on the Tanoia

heath or airport and book deals and and they're they're buying into the characters and the people

of this team rather than turning up wanting to see Humdinger of a test match it is watching

a TV show or a play we know how it ends by and large a lot of the time yeah obviously so much of

it's incumbent on the other nations now to be dragged up by what the Red Roses which again is

something we've been talking about for several years but if you're looking like I say some green

shoots with young Welsh players coming through there's going to be a really good crowd at Ashton

Gate while accounts for the England Wales game also you now got Scotland playing at Murrayfield

for the first time for what will be a record crowd there in the second round so there are still

improvements from the other teams that aren't the Red Roses it's just that every time they

improve slightly the Red Roses actually have improved by even more. So where are we if England

is still firing away the favourites and we expect them to do the Grand Slam where are we with

everyone else France still the closest team to them and then where in terms of Italy,

Ireland, Wales, Scotland and those teams sit. Well as Alex says because it's been seven

months since the game obviously we don't have any real international form to go off we can only go

off what it's been like for the last five years where France give a good account of themselves

but fall just short Wales, Scotland and Ireland oscillate and can each beat each other and I

shouldn't leave out Italy in that regard either can all oscillate and beat anyone on their day so

we're looking for any of those countries to to get some more sure some sure improvement to

you know give France a good go give England a good go but everyone's expecting until we see

some evidence on the field that we think it'll just go the same way as usual. What was the WXV plan

this year because the Six Nations takes on importance because historically the Six Nations has been

the big annual men's championship but from a women's perspective the WXV is actually a better

competition because it would pitching and against Canada and against New Zealand and yet that

doesn't get largely because of there've been issues with scheduling and it's in different far

flung parts of the world but that is actually a better test for the Red Roses that the Six Nations

is but doesn't get quite as much Q-Ross or attention. Yeah so the original WXV which was three tiers

of six teams you played three games in all in the same country against the teams that were in your

tier England one you know all of those games it's changed now where teams are at liberty to

organise their own games which it is viewed as the Red Roses being able to organise bumper clashes

rather than face you know maybe New Zealand maybe Canada so there'll be six games as part of that

for the Red Roses they'll be taking on Canada more than once so that'll be that'll be really

interesting to see they'll be taking on the Black Furns at home so there will be some really good

exciting games later on this year it also means that Scotland can go to Australia as well as part

of that for for more than just a one-test series so that will be a really interesting a really

interesting test to see yeah there's Canada matchups again I'm still pulling for the cross-codes clash

between the Red Roses and the Gillaroos in Las Vegas Australia women's rugby league and England

women's rugby union but I don't think it'll happen but I'm still pulling for it. I'm still pulling

for it but yo absolutely yeah so france Italy England Ireland and Wales Scotland the matches

in the women's six nations and Barthampton Glass go too long lengths to sail Bordeaux to lose

in the Champions Cup quarter finals Alex hopefully going to be on the road this coming weekend

yep yep looking forward to well after this I'm going downstairs to the sports desk to

explain to them just how important it is that I go to Bordeaux against to lose on Sunday

yeah well after hearing about the the prawns from 11 a.m. and the car park outside the stadium

and they blame me although of course you've got gong stuff today. Elgin where you'll be at

Aliens taking them yes I'll be it's wicking them on Saturday for that opening women's six nations

game and then following the Red Roses to up to Moefield in Ashton Gate and Palmer and Bordeaux

for the rest of the championship. Good stuff lots coming up over the next few weeks on the pod

thank you very much for listening if you want to send us an email the email address is the

ruck at the times.co.uk you can also watch the show on youtube head over to the times sport youtube

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but thank you very much for listening we'll be back with you next Monday before you go we just

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