Are trusts democratic?: The Late Show with Beejesh Deva

0:00Welcome to TQ Talk Radio. Thank you for listening! Thanks for downloading this episode from Teachers Talk Radio. You can find the full schedule and listen back to all our shows at ttradio.org. Enjoy the podcast! Hello and welcome to the late show. At 8 o'clock with me, Bee justiever and my co-host Michael Wright. This evening we are discussing our trust and democratic. I'm going to hold my hands up here. I am sitting on the fence. I'm exploring this idea. I work in a trust. So I can't go too hard on one side of it. And I have worked for trusts. And I also worked for schools before they became trusts. I don't know whether I'm for against them, to be honest with you. I've heard about great trusts. I've heard about trusts which do represent the communities.

1:02I have thought long and hard about the catatisation process and fallen down the rabbit hole there. But that's what we're going to discuss tonight. And we're also going to think about times when trusts are more and less democratic situations where trusts haven't been as democratic as possible, haven't reflected the local community, etc. How do you, Michael? I'm good. I'm good. We were just talking off air. Won't be about the first week was my first half week back. I'd spent the previous year in a sabbatical if everyone was watching my previous shows. So my head has gone very much mushy. You know, I'm out of practice. I'm like that boxer who's taking too much time out of the ring. And like I'm trying to get match fit and you know, trying to get boxing fit. And I'm basically hit the my first match with Mike Tyson. And I'm just getting a bit of a bit of a beast. But I'm still here and it's wonderful to be back in full-time teaching.

2:03It's wonderful to be back in the classroom actually and kind of get a fill for things. And it's really great to be in a new environment as well. Our colleagues are absolutely amazing. And I think the newness is wonderful. I really like the newness of anything in life. And it just keeps you fresh. Stopped you for going and stay all makes you really think about what you do and how you do it. So it's yeah, it's all good. But if at any point you see me, Bridget, if you see me fall asleep or like I'm just face down snoring. I just go to an ad read, right? Yeah. It's okay. It's not the lighting here that's causing these bags. This is a five lesson day Mr. Diva going on here. So, you know, if any point you see me, yeah, just hit some button that makes a video. No, no, I'm sure our listeners are feeling that as well. Like the, the first week back is novel. So there's four days is novel. And then the second week back is quite a, quite a, quite a thing, isn't it?

3:08Yeah, but I think it's nice to get back into it. It's nice to get back into the mix. I feel like it's where I belong as well when it's when it starts going. I feel like a, you know, I've been a fish out of water over the summer and then I start swimming again. That's what it feels like. I love my routines. I love my routines. I need my day segmented into our chunks with bells. If I asked my wife to do that over the summer, I think it would be some concern. But you know, and so let's get on to. So what's your experience with a cadmins Michael? What's how, how do you feel about academies, whether they really the question we're asking? Because if they are democratic, like anything, if they are democratic, then what they do is they represent the people who they serve. You know what I mean? Like what? That's, that's the way I see the term. Let's define the terms democratic. I think to be democratic in its very nature, a thing or organization should reflect the needs of the people.

4:10It serves. I'm not getting into whether our current country is democratic. Let's focus on the academies, side of things in schools. So that's what, what, where I, that's my definition of it. I don't know if you have a different one. What if one lesson could help students build the confidence, creativity and problem solving skills they need for the future? Samsung Soul for Tomorrow does exactly that. It's a free, award-winning innovation programme and competition, opened all 11 to 18-year-olds across the UK and Ireland. It can run as one lesson or six. No expertise needed. Plus, we're talking a chance to win the latest Samsung tech prizes, mentoring and work experience for students. And that's not all. Winning ideas will be showcased on the iconic Piccadilly circus screens in London. 82% of teachers say it builds essential skills for life and careers. Entries close, 18th of January, 2027.

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6:15Or you want to add to that? My experience with trust. The first school I worked at was a medium-sized trust and I was working at a small-sized school. My first four A's into education. Let's put it this way. I think we've been the first six months that had a union rep come and speak to all the newbies and say, hey, do you know what's happening with your trust? Do you know what's happening with your CEO and how supposedly they bought the school and bought the land? It's throwing all of these very shady business practices at us. So my introduction to this was somewhat of negative though in the fairies. It was cut through business. They didn't necessarily have the needs of the learners and the heart of education.

7:15They didn't have it in its core structure. So then I spent a move from there and I worked for a couple of independent schools. I'm back in the state school system and it is very, very unique that it actually doesn't belong to a trust. So when we're talking of air and you happen to mention the score, so no, it doesn't belong to a trust and you're very surprised by it. There's not a potential but there's a little bit of a worry because they're headed for tiring next year. So there's a little worry amongst the staff about will it become a trust? And I think the worry has been based upon the connotations and the assumptions of what trusts are on what they do to schools and what they do to do. So it's kind of I have to say it's seen somewhat not negatively but they're worried about its potential moving to a trust. So from my perspective, I worked in one for a couple of years and a lot of what I've seen has been outside.

8:20Now it's unfair to tie a brush with it because the recent piece on the Fiener schools, wonderfully covered by a course. Tom here at TTR and covered by us in general, you know, we're not too sure whether or not they reported all of the facts and whether or not they reported them in a clear manner. So from my perspective, it's very difficult for me to look at trust and go, can I trust the trust? You know, can I look at it? Are they democratic? Do they really serve the communities? I think the local authorities are maintained schools, we can say absolutely they do just because of the nature of what schools used to be in terms of state schools. So I think I'm like you are on the fence, but I'm trying not to be swayed too much by all of the negativity that I've heard about trust and regards to whether or not they're democratic or whether they purely serving the stakeholders and people that have invested rather than the community.

9:25The mixed bag is an interesting because local authorities were a mixed bag when they were around, weren't they? So you could work for a local authority and people would go, in fact, I know people when I first started applying for schools going, that local authority, I wouldn't work for any school in that local authority. They barely paid you one time, there was all these things, it was generally, I'm not going to lie, when we were going back to the show, I've been doing it for 16 years, I'm going to say, like, go back in the day, it would be like, I think it's like, oh yeah, did you know they didn't pay everyone in October? And then like had to incrementally pay over, I mean, it was things like that really systematic kind of really administrative type stuff that local authorities people would like, I won't go for those guys, no, no, no, it wasn't on a teaching and learning side of things because I think back then, back at that time, obviously, off-stead were coming in and they were doing the rating of teachers and stuff like that.

10:27That was going on, so it's not, I'm not going to say that people had carte blanche to do what they want in the classrooms, but I think what was going on is, they wanted you to teach in a certain way, but no, wanted to tell you to teach in a certain way. However, local authorities would work with schools, but it was generally unlike the mismanagement of funding or HR or something along those lines, where I heard the complaints with local authorities. I'm not sure whether I'll listen as I've got stories about old local authorities, or maybe current local authorities, but that's what they talk about. It was kind of those things and I think people really struggle, and the schools really struggle as well, sometimes in the way that local authorities would trip feed funding through to the schools. And then they would feed funding through to schools and things like that and the way funding networks were done and as soon as, I mean, I worked for a school where essentially it was a catamized within a year. So it was a catamized within a year and the school set up its own trust as the mothership school.

11:29The reason we were given was just because like all the Quango funding had dried up. So I don't know if you know about Quango funding that was like, I'm not sure Michael, I don't want to condo send, but Quango funding was essentially this funding stream whereby loads of external organizations would fund, fund certain projects within your school. So they'd fund like your after school clubs or the fund the send program, you'd be able to get a lot more funding in and gradually overnight those Quango's dried up. I mean, this is the story we're talking. I don't know whether it was true or not. And essentially the local authority was kind of not giving the funding that we needed and so it made more financial sense to become a trust, which is really interesting isn't it? It was quite an interesting reason to become a trust to be financially in charge of your own funding and potentially look for a local area for a really local level, you know, the school, the literally the neighborhoods that that school served could have been brilliant, right?

12:37Could have been brilliant. However, on the flip side of the coin, the deregulation of that, I think has opened up some interesting and the deregulation around. How trusts are intervening into the training, the performance management of teachers, etc. I think is interesting. We're just discussing our trust's democratic, I can see people have joined our stream and people are wondering what we're talking about. We are talking about our trust democratic, we're talking about the fact that when when schools become trusts, they do it for different reasons and also kind of this different outcomes as a result of that kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a realization. So tell me Michael, what are you thinking in terms of the way that that kind of a kind of a kind of a realization has not worked for the communities that they are supposed to be serving? Well, I think number one, number one you mentioned is the lack of background checks and the lack of checks of who are buying up or setting up the economies and the trusts.

13:46So like you say, it's almost like a wild west, it's open itself up to everyone, which is great because in a way that makes it democratic of course. But you really don't know the true intentions in regards to who's setting up the trust and what they want from it. You would like to think there's an altruism, wouldn't you, of everyone who's set on this? You know what I'm going to set this up and I'm not looking to make a penny. I am just looking to help my community help the school. You would hope that I can save from kind of my years observing that's not the case. I can say that there have been people, companies, trust that of what schools and run them like businesses very openly run them like businesses and you mentioned about performance management and training completely changed the model and changed everything around to be like a business. And expect the school to operate on a profit and the profit being the amount of students that turn up go to school, amount of students on roll, then they obviously they can get the local funding and where the profits go is is a bit of a gray area.

15:00Sorry, what was your question again? So, so in terms of like that negative angle and schools not the trust not serving the community. So not being democratic in a sense, do you know what what do you, what, what like I was asking, what do you think about that? Have you got any examples of where that might have happened or how do you feel about that? Well, my, well, my first one actually, it transpired that actually the person who owned the trust bought the land in very illegal means and basically used all these dodgy loot holes and things to acquire not only our school, but I think two other schools in the area. That trust quickly disbanded and I think they became, I think it became it went under another trust and it's a lot more sure footing now. I, that my sin, the cynical part of me says that surely not some, some of these trust have to be run, they're investing in this and they want to have a return of investment.

16:14And just briefly branching out is the same in the independent and private school sector. There are companies that bought these schools. They're going to want to return on investment certainly foreign investors who have come in who don't particularly have any connection with the local area. So, you know, I, I can say that I have heard of instances where that has happened, which is, which is awful, but it didn't necessarily affect my day to day in terms of the job. I was just a foot soldier. I was there teaching and being at the school wasn't involved in the strategic and the operational side. I was just a foot soldier who was involved on that area there. But where I think it stopped, I think where it has affected perhaps on the negative level is that the business vacation, if you will, I don't know if that's a word. I'm not a word of teaching and how this once teaching which has been very heavy, heavy since on pedagogy and building relationships and really working in the business of care has been corporized into something where it becomes more singular in its identity.

17:31The lesson pans, the power points that we make, the way that people operate around is all very much uniform like. And I think that the that element of it has crept massively into education and it's not necessarily for some. We hear stories that they've gone way too far in how everything should be exactly how it is. I know there are other trusts with their not. I mean, they've got the foundations of what, who they are, what they are. But they still believe in the educators at the end of the day to still have faith in them to be creative, to be diverse enough and also to put their own true self in these ones. It's such a difficult one because I mean, I entered the profession in 2014, so I kind of entered into that into the era of a catamization. So I hadn't known what it was like before. The like to think, I mean, obviously your your testament in that is that not all local for all the schools were great and it was probably the same as it was today with people complaining about, oh, don't work for that trust, don't work for that trust.

18:36Like I said in your days, I don't work for that local fority is the same thing. So you can't really compare that as the housing days compared to what it is now. I mean, I wasn't in I wasn't in management about them, but then, but I can imagine that acquisition and stuff like that was a lot more frustrating in schools. Like, so for example, like all of our HR finance and things like that is run through the trust like I don't have to go to a local authority for that and local authorities might be in charge of like more, the far more schools and the trust, but it's really easy. If I want something in my department to make it better, as long as I have a justification for that, I bid for it and I get it right and it's not a huge process back in, but I know things like that may have been more difficult in a local authority in the past in the past can't say for now. That was when I was at I could see, you know, even things like the email system and things like that, they would develop painfully slowly mainly because like local government would run painfully slowly, therefore local authorities would run painfully slowly back then.

19:50I don't know whether it's the same. I would probably stipulate it's the same and it's a gut feeling completely anecdotal. I just on I'm kind of feeling and thought just judging how my local council works and how long it takes to get like an allotment or something like that. I mean, like, so like I can see how how you might benefit from being part of the trust because suddenly funding streams can be open straight way, like your purer pupil funding becomes widely accessible. Basically, it's your limit, isn't it? You're being purer pupil funding. If your economy is well run financially and and you can just get going on what you need not have to grind that grind out like request after request after request, go to meet the acquisition after me acquisition meeting. Literally, if I want a new subscription, I kind of ask the true I kind of request it and as long as I've got a good justification and there's money there for it, it's there.

20:51And that's brilliant, do you know what I mean? Some of these roadblocks have been taken out of place. Also, it's really nice as a department to like basically think, oh, well, the HR is kind of I've got a backstop. It's not just me and charge of HR, do you know what I mean? And like, and we don't have a HR department in school, like we just well, you know, we've got kind of a business director who deals with it. But then we know that some of the HR and financing is going on in the background somewhere out of the building. So everyone who's got feet in our school, even if they're in, you know, if they aren't front facing, if they aren't child facing is basically the heads on the kids. And that's really nice. I think I think that's really nice with with the way academies work. Do you know what I mean? Like you can just take all that boring stuff that no one wants to deal with, no teacher wants to deal with out of school. There you go. You guys and they do it. Generally, my experience of academies is that's what happens. Like they do it. You know, there's no, there's no fuss in those just happens and then they do it. Okay. I think, but the I think where people have become a little bit disgruntled is where the fingers of the academy suddenly start to reach into practice and classrooms and curriculum.

22:09And also, I think the other one is what's worry me though. So you've got that easy funding stream. What's actually worry me is the deregulation of those and how easy it is. So on one hand, I'm saying, yeah, it's great. I get what I want. But on the other hand, I've noticed that the number of consultants, tech companies, people selling products to schools. You know, we bought a package to block the kids mobile phones for a part of the day, a focus package for school for schools for a mobile phone. And I was like, hold on a second. These tech companies have made the problem. And now they've sold the problem to us. And no one's got eyes on that. So like there's a trust wide subscription to it. No one's got eyes on that. No one's gone, hold on. Why are we paying the people who made the problem to solve the problem? That's it. It's just it's mad. And then I'm thinking, well, I'll don't know second, but but we've just made curriculum cuts to make sure that we're under budget.

23:18And we we haven't made staffing cuts because like our trust is lovely. They don't do that. But we've made curriculum cuts and we've made kind of cuts to the number of classes and things like that. But then we've got all of these packages and things like that that people are just they go, yes, we'll pay for that. We'll pay for that. We'll pay for the other pay for this. Pay for that. You know, whole suite of kind of CPD and things like that. And and all I see really, and maybe it's because I'm on X or LinkedIn is a gathering swarm of mosquitoes. Ready to put a, a probacis in. Do you know what I mean? Like ready to put a probacis in and because this, because there's no there's no mosquito repellent at all. Like, you know, the and and let's face it. Like if we mount it up, how much are consultancy, consultants, consultancy companies, even supply companies, like all of these businesses, how much are they removing and how much are Academy stop in that and put in friction in the way of that.

24:26Because let's face it, if you're attached to an Academy, you know someone in an Academy, you could potentially and you run a business, you could potentially, that's straight away, you've got market right there in you've got market access right there for potentially a very, very large number of people. That is actually a major concern when it comes to democratization of Academy, do you know what I mean? Like let's face it, our water companies were demarcatized weren't they when they were sold off in the 1970s and look what a mess we are in, right. People and it wants to get it as a mosquito as it was death by a thousand mosquito bites, wasn't it with the water companies, it's taken this this long to go, oh my god, people have been sucking money out of this because we've, it's been deregulated, right. Like there's and and I just kind of watching it go the same way, you know, per people funding going into software packages which there's no, there's no cost benefit analysis really I'm not going to lie to you.

25:27There's no there's no impact analysis and you can show anything we re input impact analysis as well if you want. Oh well and if you were committed to it so that's kind of where I'm a little bit bit concerned really with the democratization of it like, you know, like are we get slowly getting sucked dry because of the deregulation due to a catamization. I'm just going to do an ad read quickly, and a QA teachers have always played a vital role in shaping a QA qualifications as assessment reform approaches. The future of education matter more than ever and so do the voices help into answer them that's why a QA has launched the a QA teacher insight program over the next 12 months the program will bring together teachers views about experiences through research engagement and a QA's partnership with teacher tap building a comprehensive picture of classroom experience to help inform the future of qualifications assessment and education search a QA assessment reform and have your say today.

26:30Hatchit learning if you are looking for practical ideas to use in the classroom hatch it has a huge range of trusted books and resources for teachers school leaders and schools from evidence informed teaching and behavior to curriculum assessment leadership their titles are written by some of the best known names in education and a full of strategies you can put into practice straight away. They also offer you a growing range of CPDs to help support your professional development to browse their latest books and resources visit hatch it learning today. So what do you reckon to allow Michael are we slowly being being blood dry through undemocratic means. I think is the way the world now isn't it everything is for sale everything our attention is for sale and any platform or anything that we have can be monetized or can be used for profit. Whereas once before you would think likes of education would be left alone because of its because of its purity and what it is and the honesty of it.

27:35Now we are getting to the point where you said we are companies are going in and say look we got a massive market here where we can promote our products and we can get long term subscription loan to payment from this trust in order to sell our particular products and therefore therefore potentially have an influence and therefore have certainly have a say in terms of how curriculum is how students learn students learn. You know you know really giving everyone a choice you know it's and as you said if you're making cuts to your department you're making a curriculum cuts if you're doing everything possible to keep within the margins because you've been told to like all the other odds across the country and next thing you know there's this package that's been agreed what you think in hand women that's. That's a whole chunk of cash that you're spending on here I've you know I've worked really hard to save you know 1500 quid for the year and all of a sudden we having this I'd be right to be a bit suspect on it too as well certainly if there's these new products that come in and it's very much heavily marketed as these are new products that will do this and do this and you go okay did you look at any of alternatives if no no no these are fine these are fine these are more than fine.

28:50Yeah I would be also a little bit suspicious of that and it's yeah like I said that deregulation you're just allowing. Opportunity to kind of really enter the classroom in that sense what it really should be is that everything that is bought added into any school really should be the first and final for first and foremost should be for the students and for the learning is it going to benefit them is it going to have that big impact. That we know it will have is it going to have a big impact on me as the teacher can I use that one if we're you know built if we're kind of choosing programs or if you're choosing software programs where once before they'll find and now they're not now introducing things and it's made things a little bit more difficult perhaps so I hate to say it but I'd hate to for education to be like this maybe in 10 20 years time when you go into you go into a lesson and you got your. Your lesson your PowerPoint is sponsored by what is the company you know what I mean I hate for us to be at that moment where I like just before beginning this lesson just wanted to give a shout out to our sponsors of lesson for today you know I would really hate for that to happen but I I it does it look like it's happening no but if we're going to allow the influence of external you know investors and we allow.

30:17All of this then at what point are the trust going to basically go in and say well actually this this company is paying for this this company is paying for the sports or this company is paying for this so you know we kind of need to keep our sponsors happy so to speak which is really where we we don't want to be you know we we work in a school we don't work in a business you know yes schools they always say schools should be run like businesses but teaching shouldn't be run like a business. And the two can be separated and the two can you know mutually coexist but without going into one another and you know we're talking earlier on about you know the influence of all of this into teaching we just need to make really clear that actually anything we do and if we're buying it all these outside companies that coming in selling things and the trust the buying it has to be 100% authentic and and for the right reasons for us as teachers and for our students as well. It's easy to justify I mean part of the issue is there like it I think is market access like you just need to know someone who's in executive leadership.

31:24And potentially a who who has a need and all of a sudden you can have market share for like eight nine schools in a small trust or maybe a hundred that's mad isn't it that's absolutely mad and your product might not be the best but you know that person let's face the education's always were like this listen yet you know so like. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a head of department, I've had to make kias and stuff like that, do you know what I mean? But if I knew someone and I knew they were good and I trusted them Do you know what I mean or I thought I trusted them and I like I thought they could provide me what I need That's what you you kind of an encourage them to apply wouldn't you like you do something like that So education's always work like that though. Yeah, oh, I know blah blah blah. Okay. What get them in you know Are they wanted to wonders with that department? Yeah, get them in do you know that's the way we're however that get them in culture It might not be the healthiest and might not be the bit that serving our communities And also like there's no opportunity for someone else within the local community to pick up that business

32:26Do you know what I mean? And so it's quite an interesting thing from that front I think it's just something I've been toying with over the last few few weeks when I've seen kind of subscriptions and CPD sold to trusts trust wide and I've gone hmm whole so that that CPD provider It's questionable. I mean it's questionable whether it's going to have that effect and impact and we can justify it we can you can The the wonderful thing about schools is that No one disagrees that everything should suit the needs of the learners That's the wonderful thing. It's also the worst thing about schools because you can justify anything by saying it suits the need to the learners right and the community How are that? He shouldn't work here because he doesn't suit the needs of the learner and the community. Do you know what I mean like It's a real big thing Are you do you know I mean you can say that or like no no you need to work three more hours every night because it suits the needs of the learner and the community

33:28Let that's you know it's just it's such a lovely phrase but it gets banded around and then And it's really easy to justify as well. It's really easy to to to you know like impact is really easy to show You just pick geometric that works for you and hey presto, you know well 25% of learners who 70 it works 75% of the time all the time do you know what I mean or something long Like it's that anchorman quote, isn't it? Yeah, it's like you could do that and people go all work Okay, so it's the this is for our learners. Yeah, it's an interesting one um, but yeah in terms of the communities like what what's interesting is what communities need um and that's that's a conversation of adding all the all the sessions as well on on teacher taught radio like um and And it's interesting because like there is there is what does the community need? What does the community actually need what does the community want? What does it need?

34:28And what's provided now? I've seen academies do like literally take over an academy school In an area and turn it around Do you know that there's a school in Donkass that the basically People were afraid to send the kids there and like within a year They had a school where they could send their kids there the new their kids wouldn't be bullied The new the kids do you know the academy took over they supported the head Doing everything I watched someone give a talk on saturday about it. I was at um conference on saturday And I watched someone be give a talk about how his academy chain of gone in and supported several schools And these schools have changed changed the local area because they were down and out Do you know I mean no down and out the the the the um local Problems had become the hallmark of the community rather than the local successes And they went in and yes, there's friction friction, but those academies going in and going right and and really supporting colleagues at the school

35:30So like we paint this picture that they're all horrible blood sucking business organizations And I feel like we have to be fair like these these people who Like who you know The um they they went in and supported teachers who really were having a horrific time Um and then and actually got it to the point where they were able to that teachers were able to go in and do the job that they wanted to do rather than you know stand and hand out toilet roll on the front door or toilet because they were Because it was such a problem to keep toilet roll in the paid toilets and things like that Do you know I mean teachers doing exactly what they need to say this is where I really kind of and and you've got people and minds Working together To support a community um and that community maybe didn't realize they needed discipline The discipline that that that that area brought but then and now you know, they're going God our kids are going Our kids have got opportunities. They've opened doors. You know things like that Which is really really interesting concept that that could be something that happens where the local

36:33local authority Just didn't have the hands and the time to put into it, you know Because they've got other fires to call it out, but yeah and an academy being smaller than the local authority Actually yeah, let's get in there. Let's work with them every day You're going to see someone from the academy every day. They are going to be on the front gate with you Getting their hands dirty. Do you know what I mean? I mean we went through offstead and our academy was superb We I don't think we could have done it without them. It was like having Um it was like having just just Four extra pairs of hands everywhere. Do you know like and not not not that they flooded the school with yellow jackets I know that and showed a false picture of what the school was like if that's not true That they were just helping us prepare. They were helping us go through it. They'd be on the phone if you needed them Do you know what I mean? And that's that's really powerful. I think to have that body behind you Is really really powerful and let's face it it was democratic. They were helping the community They were giving the community what it needed at a really really key time

37:36in a way that maybe a more Uh bureaucratic organization couldn't Hmm, I think you've got you've raised some really good points. There's a point. I was going to jump in earlier um about the Outside Companies help like investing into scores mentioned cpd One of the benefits I think would be probably if they've chosen correctly and if it is right actually that buying in that cpd Then freeze up all that space for slt to go off and do what they need to do Certainly for an inset. They rather than go right after deliver like two two sessions But actually what I need to do is x1 z. I've got to plan it. Hey, let's just outsource it Um, then that'd be great and let's face it, you know, I've I've recently had some great cpd in my school But I've also sathru's really bad cpd. All due respect to slt out there Uh, I've sat through bad something right term that cpd that cpd that isn't necessarily Going to be beneficial for for what I need and I sat through it and go in

38:38Well, I look around and you know, everyone else looks a little little bit like me and then look a little bit jaded Whereas if they bought in the cpd Um, and their job is to design it and to you know, make it like Passas and get everyone in up for it That's great. It's a winner winner From that way. So that's the other benefits that you mentioned being in the trust where they can invest that money And they can invest that time into these various things So that it frees up the time of others So they mentioned the offstab report if the trust was there helping it means that the slt didn't have to deal with the burden Um, and the you know, they're just just a downright, you know I'll call it horrible to see no in terms of what you deal with in inspection They had that support if it had if it'd been you know local authority would they have had that spot? Could they have called them up on the phone say hey about this compliance thing Probably not so it does work in both ways and it goes back to really the The intentions of the trust if they if they have this and they go yes, we will help out. We will support

39:42Then fantastic. I mean that's called a donk has to that's a great success story of a trust coming in Turning it around for for the community So therefore it makes it uh much more valuable and you know the community look at the school with a sense of pride Rather than as he said going in and being worried to send the parents being worried to send their their children there So you know like yes, there are some amazing stories out there um It's it's one of those ones there's some good stories out there. There are some not so good stories out there It's not it's not necessarily We could think the brush on economies and trust to say they're all bad like no It's it really depends on the trust. It just depends on who's bought it and who runs it Um, and I think we just have to go go on a case by case Basis rather than just go are they were all this and they're all that There are trust that are yes, are democratic and that support the community. Yeah I mean um, so i'm just going to shout again. We've got a comment here

40:43So uh Paul Farz says my towner in the middle of a public consultation to close eight primaries will uh to avoid closure schools are advised to merge and join the trust One of the schools is in if you don't you're done uh That's the accadamisation program, you know before we were researching this like two thousand Let's just remind listeners as to the story behind the academy's labor um, Tony Gleiskovan is the one that comes up with this accadamisation program The idea that schools can um so people can set up a small board a small trust And that per people funding can go directly there and then they can run the schools with that Within that organisation they might run multiple schools. So that's a small project then 2010 comes along and The Tory manifesto prior to the 2010 election promises that if schools wish to be part of an academy there will be an opportunity

41:46That was what was pledged in the manifesto Um hum Parliament Liberal Democrat crafter regains it however Lib Dem Tory coal co- coalition what we have is uh, well, we all know what the Lib Dems did Uh, and then essentially we have Michael goes pushing ahead with the academy's bill And then the academy's bill gets expanded to the secretary of state Has powers to economise if need be and then that leads to decades of almost a decade of like Not forced to catamisation. Yeah, forced to catamise. I don't I don't think you can Anything well Paul Fuzz has just I think when you look at that I can't call it anything but but for Paul That's forced to catamise and so essentially if you're failing Academy if you're going under academy if your pupil numbers drop and you can't afford to run your school become not viable Academy So I guess you can you can call it forced to catamisation or there is still the opportunity to catamise even if you aren't forced

42:52So it's a rapid expansion and let's not forget though that academies have got local Well, I don't know about local accountability, but they said they have a accountability chains because all of them should have a governing party behind them Which is regulating what the academy's doing how it's doing and most academies are run through a charter So there are ways of working there certain rules and they're not completely gung the whole business organizations where you can Do what you want how you want when you want There is a board there are people who are doing things and some academies have local boards as well Which are designed to reflect the needs of the community which is quite an interesting thing Um, I mean what's interesting? I don't know how a hundred school academy Can ever possibly serve Individual communities with its program without some sort of like local Authorities that do that It's like it's quite an interesting one you know The models really interested like you've got an academy where it expands to a hundred plus schools

43:55And then what they do is they have regional directors To direct the regions do you know what I mean? And then regional teams to direct the The and and then suddenly you've got something that look very similar to the old local authorities Within within a small Small network them government I just Boggers my mind how that sort of thing runs and how how actually it can run any different Essentially, you've just got many academies within the academy having you there Um, so that's an interesting one because you because I there's no way like an academy chain from which which grows up in barbsha Can run a school in the northwest of England that you know It teaching learning wise and things like that because it's just don't know the local context. Oh, no, of course How would you invest in it? How would you go in and know what the kids need in that area? How would you know The local area the the the the culture of it there. You know, how would you know you wouldn't you you would You Yeah, I mean, I think that's fairly ridiculous to presume that you would you you would hope that whoever runs the school

45:01They know the area back to front in my school Uh All of the governors and SLT and even the staff. They are Cornish through and through they know The area back to front because they've been working in the school for decades So there's nothing you can't tell them So there's this I couldn't imagine a school from from London coming in and telling our our school what to do It's like First of all, the Cornish would never have it, you know, they're very proud But in that sense it just wouldn't make any sense at all and you you're quite right It there's in that way it doesn't become democratic because Yeah, how how how dare you tell us what to do when you're you're an outside influence you don't know anything about our culture our community so yeah, it's ridiculous I mean, I was speaking to someone on Saturday and then we're talking about how this so there was two Local schools opposite each other once the primary school I want the junior schools as a primary junior situation right they have to go between the schools

46:01And they've been taken over by two different trusts So you had two schools over the road from each other two different trusts and But however they form the transition right between like upper school and middle school yet uh and one school Does phonics different to the other school So can you imagine that like there's a it just Like how has that happened how's that been allowed to happen if trust were truly democratic then the community Would have had some say in that and gone hold on hold on those are our two schools. We're gonna send our kids there How have two Trusts got the tender for those schools that's madness I don't know how it worked. I don't know how it happened, but it happened right this is truth. I'm not I'm not lying Um, I'd rather not verify it because obviously confidentiality reasons and stuff like that but um But yeah, this is this is like not a made up story

47:02Like did it but it's happened right and and that's that's insane in it like that means you've got this situation where the quality of education is Incaherent is categorically incaherent for the kids going from one school to another because two academy chains are running them differently So two academy chains are running a stream of people through a school differently Whether they work together or not. I don't know But I mean same in the L.A. So would it be the same back in the L.A. days when it had Primed to secondary. They'll be a primary of running differently and they go to secondary it be different or Or whether to To two schools basically incahutes and a words Dovetail We're you two you two exact teams don't have to work together in a in a an academy. You know, it's a local authority I'm pretty sure that the the quality of education team will be the same for both of those schools. Gotcha. Yeah So Do you know mean like so you got incaherent education

48:04That's a really interesting phenomenon, but it's not serving the community. Is it that? Um and and maybe your comment about the wild west Is a bad one like I mean it was wild when we first started with academies It was wild Like academies popping up left right and center free schools popping up left right center then Turning into academies free schools turning into academies and kind of Amassing and like essentially just taking on schools left right and said oh that schools got uh that schools Unsatisfactory. Oh my god. I can't remember the word that schools unsatisfactory That shows this things have been moving in the right direction. That doesn't it that schools unsatisfactory Right will have them That schools in fact satisfactorily right will have them we're outstanding. We'll show them out do it and then like potentially what happens is um Well, we saw what happened with Well with with a few academies. Do you know what I mean um like where the community suddenly gets the like either high discipline

49:06high boundary Really quickly really quickly because obviously you take on that failing school You've got to show turn around really really quickly Yeah, you've got your exact team who's being paid primarily for that job who've got their KPIs Schools as businesses, right? They've got like I hate that term KPIs um keep performance indicators and if they're not hitting those keep performing indicators Well, what are you doing? Why are you doing it? I mean like like there might be an exec who's on top of them or the DFE directly um and then so you go in you force this you force that you force the other the community are like kind of you know They've been sending their kids to that that wonderful school down the road or that that that maybe has got the teaching staff But it's not had a full complement and stuff like that and all of a sudden there's new strategy There's new this that and the other they might be new uniform um And and they're on the back foot do you know what I mean and then your daughter is a tall Your daughter's told that she can't get a school within the first 10

50:09And then go go to toilet within the first 10 minutes of god over lessen. Oh my god What well this is just another insult to the injury Do you know what I mean? And then suddenly this this isn't serving us This isn't serving us and you can see exactly how some of these things happen in education that you can see Exactly why some of these stories are popping up in the news I mean let's face it on the Athena documentary it like those those parents were just going to I'm not gonna lie. I think the reporting by the BBC was chunky times reporting super um like but but you know It was aside from the shuddy reporting you sometimes you can see how maybe a parent or care And child could get there if drastic change happened quite quickly due to a catapization Do you know I mean I don't think it was fair I don't think it was fair to to blame the academy completely for what You know for those those things and disband the academy. I think that was actually really really Really awful that I feel like it was a mounted assault on the academy

51:12but But but you can see how how this process if it was a bit more democratic If the locals were involved in the governance a little bit more Big and how academies might remove local government government governance and community members could go out and go look I was on governance this this is it do you know what I mean? Look yes, the academy chain consulted or Or like actually there was a there was as a network between the local authority A small local governing body and the academy and they suggested this what you think do you know what I mean? And we go through this and and we yeah, they could have been I think I think it could make some of these a little bit easier I Think the idea is that I think that the with that What you say there is is essentially that forced upon and I think nobody wants anyone

52:14anything forced upon them right nobody and it happens a lot in education and if the if the changes are swift Quick and a complete you know 180 in terms of what they used to It's only right for someone to go hang on a minute. I didn't sign up for this. I didn't well first of all I didn't want my son son or daughter school to be an academy and like they now they're having to do this they're having to do this I haven't do this Once you force something on someone that's where you have a lot of issues and when you get rid of the consultancy stage and you get rid of the dialogue stage of we're thinking of we'd like to bring You into investment. What do you think in this one? I think people start to become very skeptical and Like he said it just mounts up and mounts up and then you know, I mean, this is the first time in my career I've seen a trust go like this, you know, I I thought trusts were untouchable It was certainly I won't name this trust, but there was certainly one CEO of one locally who basically said that he was untouchable

53:21And he was kind of very braggadocious about his can't touch me can't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was very open about his position Yeah, I know that just in terms of the people who I knew from that particular school and the trust so When you got that and then all of a sudden a phoenix goes and like oh my goodness. That's quite that's quite seismic because I just thought they were a thought they were you know, they they had they were Howfals the wrong word, but I thought they had such a hold on Schools and the local community in terms of what they do just thought that would never happen So for a phoenix ago like that is is shocking actually it really is shocking and it's Maybe it's that death by a thousand muskete by its button the other on their side. Yeah, yeah Yeah, the time it's almost like snowboard a snowboard snowboard and then it culminated into the panorama piece You know, and then I think you know the court of public opinion is already decided

54:23No matter how much PR they've done and try to spin it and and even have people in saying hang on to me You've got the wrong end of the stick like no, no, we're not gonna have it so it was a pretty a pretty I think a pretty seismic movement that I think we've had in education certainly in this Well nowadays there's a lot of soap boxes. You don't mean where if if like people are using means which are not Democratic to Elicit change because there's a soap box in Everyone's hand like and I think that that's really really interesting Yeah, you can you can catch the wind and also you've got look it doesn't surprise me that the media reporting was chunky It's it's it's it's it's been labeled as legacy media and needs to catch up and All right, well, let's take this which is come on to this official media etc etc etc And let's run with it and that's that's another example of like maybe democracy With trust not working hand in hand do you know what it mean like and also how do those people who feel who who actually

55:26Really enjoyed sending their kids to that trust Like really really had breathed out a sigh of release because standards have improved how do they feel? Now they got you don't mean how do they feel now like what are they feeling like there was people like Like my son of daughter. I saw her on Twitter. My son did really well there I was really happy with them at that school. I'm not sure what's going to happen now Like it's it's really interesting. Isn't it that kind of the the interplay and I think the wild west thing is the The thing that you've said is resonating with me completely. It's that wild west. It's the deregulation And let's face it it happened in the 19th sempties with gas and oil and water And we're we're at that state and also government contracts And and we're seeing that now with academy chains however this could be different This could be different. I don't think we passed the point of return I think a little bit more regulation like for example live capping CEO salaries, you know I think that's quite an interesting move

56:27I think that is the first step to people realizing that we've got a regulation problem You know 250k plus Uh, I just if you're only two and 50k plus in education I expect you not to sleep I'm gonna say it I'm gonna say it because you know I'm tired a lot of the time I ain't earning anywhere near 50k The 650k plus Right so I'm expecting you to sleep for maybe one hour a night And I'm expecting you to be fed by a feeding tube because like if you're earning to 50k in education You gotta be working every god given hour right because that's what the great the troops are doing And so yeah Yeah, I mean so so I think that's a start I think there's a start in the government realizing oh no This is to be at the wild west and hopefully they do realize Paul said do local councils benefit from schools becoming part of the trust um Or would they prefer all primaries to be in one?

57:28I think local councils just like someone else running it because they don't have to think about it along with The deficits that they face probably I'm going out on a limb there. I don't have that's that's not Substantiated but if I was working in the council as I feel um But yeah, so yeah, it's just an interesting one. You know like I think hopefully the people see the wild west that it's become And we can sort of tame it because otherwise I don't know if we don't tame it I think we'll be attempts what I honestly think and maybe I'm being like um populist here populist or Like catastrophic in my thinking. I think we'll end up with attempts. What a situation In education whereby there is a lack of funding skills and knowledge and the networks will just run dry and the more and more Like we deregulate trust the more and more will have the mosquitoes coming in sucking the the the the coffers dry and then eventually will have a bunch of people who are left

58:32Try to turn it around working at ground level It just can't I don't see think that if we don't agree to deregulate Maybe I'm being a Catastrophist there, but but I don't know Well, well, I mean you got a point because with the with the water and the gas in the 70s and when did the winded the rail When did that happen was that same time? Yeah, 80s Okay, yeah, so roundabout of course. Yeah, makes it so roundabout the same time of that particular government Um, you can see how it has transpired over decades of time a kind of my station is relatively new Um in the grand scheme of things isn't it? So we're yet to we're I think we're just starting to see the receipts now and the data and it you only I think it's only right to presume this because if that's if those industries have done the same thing on the same model Then you would only presume that education would be exactly the same and

59:33It's something that I think we can or the government can can put a stop to it now To make sure that it doesn't get there And I absolutely 100% support a cost cap to CEOs or so that we don't so they weren't on anyone who was only that god gand you an amount of money Um, for that one of the you know, it's fair play if you worked your career to do that. That's incredible, but Not in education may you know, I'm not in education So I think you can put in that you can put in the the the the the The caps and everything now To stem the tides and then see where we go with it because if you don't and to kind of see how it goes or just see how it snowballs deregulation, there's there's no incentive or there's nothing to stop people from coming in and taking more and taking more Um, and we don't want to be in a position 10 20 years now where we're talking about education In such terms, you know, that we're we're in a wobbly stage now education isn't we're not in a great place

1:00:36You know, we've had a rotten couple of years. Let's face it the previous year You know the the receipts are out there, you know, so we don't particularly want to go in that same direction We all want to see a more positive want to see a more democratic approach to education. Yeah, we're all about Don't we want to see that so I like to end on a positive note. I like to get the joy out You know pandora's box is open. We're never gonna go back from my canoes. It's open. It won't be shagging However, there are academies doing absolutely amazing things We've communities local communities working with local communities making life better making chances better for them And also doing things for teachers like there are teachers who absolutely love working in academies And probably I would say those academies are probably working more democratically listening to their stakeholders more um Like really really kind of getting down into those communities into those areas rather than making decisions on high and potentially if there was more regulation If there was a bit more guidance and potentially all academies could be like that

1:01:38So I'd love to continue this conversation maybe 10 years into the future and go Oh, yeah, how good was this piece of regulation? Are you working for an academy that you love? Yes, are they listening to you? Yes, have they really helped you? Yes, it'd be really nice to be in that position. I think I don't think it's it's a an unmanageable task I agree. I agree. Great Should we end it there Michael? I think that's a nice time to do Excellent. Well, it was nice to see you and I think get some well-deserved rest after your day And enjoy the rest of the week and And we'll see you all the losses. We'll see you next month. Don't forget to tune into all the other TTR radio shows You can listen live you can catch up on podcasts. You can go YouTube wherever you So we will see you next thing to teachers talk radio tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org We look forward to hearing from you next time on teachers talk radio

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