Are Young Men Returning to Church?

0:00Welcome to the Conversations, that matter podcast where we are foraging a bold Christian vision for America, I'm your host, John Harris, and we have a subject today that will be of interest to all of you because we are going to talk about whether or not the United States of America is in the midst of a religious revival or a Christian awakening, especially regarding young men, millennials and Gen Z men. You see all the headlines, you've heard the testimonies, you are likely, if you listen to this podcast, within a group of Christians excited about the possibility of a religious commitment increase in the United States. And I don't want to temper that in ways that make you not excited. I do want you to understand

1:05what is actually going on though, and I have really tried to understand this for the last two or three years because there is something happening. I just don't know that it's being diagnosed in the right way. So I'm going to give you my two cents on it, but I also want to get into the data. I want to show you what's driving this narrative, why people are saying this. And it's not just Christians that are saying this. I was at a Q&A at Princeton Seminary last December. And at that particular Q&A, which was mostly attended by liberals, I was asked a few different times and a few different ways about the young people coming back to the church. And I talked about it because there is a sense in which that's happening, but I don't know that it is understood well, what that represents, and to what extent it is happening. And that's what we're going to dive into. The liberals that don't like Christian

2:06fundamentalism, or in their mind, they think of that as some kind of a radical, let's bomb abortion clinics kind of sect. In our mind, we're thinking of people who actually believe what the Bible says, not people who bomb abortion clinics, obviously, but just people who believe the Bible conveys truth, and we should obey that truth. We don't think it's all figurative and stories, right, which is the Christianity liberals are comfortable with. So Christians who are conservative in their interpretation of the scripture, they look at the trends, the vibes, the shifts that are happening right now, with a lot of positivity. Liberals look at it as if the gates of hell are actually opening up and we have the jackboot of some kind of religious cult upon our necks right around the corner. And if Trump passes the mantle to JD Vance, it's over. I mean, there's a lot of hysteria.

3:07And I think on the liberal side, the hysteria drives this narrative, and on the more conservative side, the hope of revival and restoration drives this narrative, and they kind of play off each other a little bit. But I don't know that either one is completely correct in understanding what's actually taking place right in front of us. So with that said, I did write a substack on this. If you like to read, and you rather read instead of listen, then you can do that. But I'm also going to add in some of my own observations beyond what I just wrote here. So I highlight a few of the headlines. Millennials and Gen Z are flocking to Jesus and the church, not just at Easter. Gen Z is returning to Christianity data proves it. In fact, this one was USA Today. So yeah, these are mainstream news publications. Make Christianity cool again. Why Gen Z is flocking to church. That is independent UK. So that's a UK source. And what's the big deal? Why are people saying this? Let me give you

4:09a few data points. Okay. So a bar and a poll from last September showed that Gen Z and Millennials often labeled as disinterested in the faith show the highest level of regular attendance. On average, all church goers attend roughly two out of five weekends, but zoomers attend almost two out of every four weekends per month. This is a good sign, but it is still a lower average attendance rate than the boomers of 26 years ago. So here's a little chart here. And it just shows Millennials and Gen Z. And it shows their church attendance going up since 2020. That was a low point for very obvious reasons. Now, let me just put this in perspective for a moment. This particular poll from Barna is only limited to church goers. So people who already attend church regularly. So if you're already a church going person in the United States and you are in the millennial or Gen Z category, you are a little bit more

5:09likely to go to church more often than someone who is a church goer, but is in an older age bracket than you. That's what this data is pointing out. This is not about Gen Z more broadly. This is not about Millennials more broadly. It is about specifically those who are already attending church. And to put it in even more perspective. And again, I think this is a good trend, but it's I think it's we got to compare apples with apples a little bit here. The boomers of the 2000s, early 2000s were attending more often than the Gen Zers are now. And comparing apples with apples, church attenders. So what does that mean? It means that obviously we have a lot more work to do. It's a good trend, but that trend is going to have to continue. We're going to have to build on it. It's going to have to advance if we're going to recapture lost ground. And that's

6:11within those who call themselves presumably Christians who are regular church attenders. So I'm not trying to do this to discourage you, but I do want to point out the sample here. And what the sample looks like. If this could be when looking at a few years, this could be a trend. It could be a shift in the popularity of Christianity among those who already like Christianity. It could mean, and this is my hope, and I hope it means this, that there is a deepening of faith in those who are raised in cultural Christian settings where they're attending church, but they actually really want to know God now. So they're going to go to church more. There's a segment. I believe this is true. There is a segment, especially of Gen Z and Millennial men who realized after 2020, real evil is out there. I can't be casual with this stuff. I can't just have Jesus in the back seat. I need to really know Jesus for guidance because I don't know what to do. They had their

7:14George Bailey on the bridge prayer moment. And they are coming back to church and committing themselves. Now, I don't know how big of a group that is, but it's enough, I think, to bring the averages in those who already attend church up for those particular brackets. So that's what we're looking at. Now, a lot of people see this kind of headline. Gen Z and Millennial is often labeled as interested in faith to show the highest levels of regular attendance. And they think, oh, it's talking about all Gen Z's and Millenials. It's not. It's talking about those who already go to church. So don't read into this more than there. According to pure research, last December, zoomers as a whole are just as likely to attend services as Millenials, both of whom are less likely to attend than older generations. So pure research does a whole. And they're not just looking at those who attend church. They're looking at the generations as a whole. So their sample size is, let's look at the people in these brackets, in these age brackets, these age

8:17demographics. And they're saying, hold on, as a whole, for their sample size, this, that headline could about regular churchgoers could not apply to the population, the greater population. More significantly, zoomers are less likely than any old demographic to identify with a religion pray daily or say that religion is important in their lives. So here's pure research's conclusion. Some media reports have suggested there may be a religious revival taking place. Some young adults, especially young men in the US, but our recent polls, along with other high quality surveys, we have analyzed show no clear evidence that this kind of nationwide religious resurgence is underway. That's their conclusion. So they're saying, not so fast-barned. Now, I want to stop and just say one thing. I don't know of any polls that control for other demographic factors, right? You may be curious to know what is happening with

9:24certain racial groups. And even some of this polling itself doesn't give you information on whether we're talking about males or females, right? It's just age brackets. So you have to look at other things if you want to figure out in greater detail what's happening on the ground. These are more big picture. But big picture is the greater population of Gen Z is actually sliding towards secularity. Now, they may not be sliding as fast as expected. There's a slowdown in it, and Gen Z women are going faster than Gen Z men, and there's somewhat of a haltedness to it. But it's still, it's still bad, as what I'm trying to say, it still doesn't point to mass religious revival, at least not yet, right? We hope that that happens, but we're not seeing that in the data.

10:25So here's some charts from Pew Research, and it shows little change in the religious composition of the US since 2020. So if you think, you know, 2020 was this great high water mark of Christianity, then maybe you're happy with that. But there really doesn't seem to be much happening, which even a holding pattern might be a good thing, but it's not religious revival stuff, at least not yet. In the US young adults are less religious than older adults. Now this chart will kind of wreck you if you're really invested in the young people are all Christian conservatives. You have a bunch of questions asked here about praying daily, saying religion is very important in their lives, 10 religious services at least monthly and identify with religion. And sure enough for the 18 to 30 bracket, they are least likely to identify with religion, least likely to pray daily and least likely to say religion is very important in their lives. And it's not even close

11:27really. I mean, look at the boomers and those older than them, you know, 58, 59% pray daily. It's 32% for the 18 to 30 roles, right? For older Americans, 83% identified with a religion, 57% for younger ones. For older Americans, say religion is important, 55% younger ones, 33%. Now when it comes to attending a religious service, they are the Gen Zers are a little bit more likely according to this poll than millennials. It's actually pretty much, it's a holding pattern, right? So like older millennials, 31% of them attend monthly, younger millennials, 29%, zoomers, 31%. So in some of these zoomers, you know, who knows, they might still be connected in some ways, the younger ones to their parents. So, you know, this is, this is kind of, for those

12:2750 and younger, that's the one area you can say there's somewhat of a holding pattern, I suppose. But the older generations are still more likely to attend more often as a whole. Okay, zoomer males, let's talk about this. There is a stereotype online, especially that the females are all a bunch of manhating feminists in Gen Z. And the males are a bunch of trad bros who want to get married, but they've been denied. And so they're more accommodating to religion. I think there is a reason that stereotype exists, but I want to talk about the actual numbers. What data do we have to talk about this? Not just examples people give and stories they share, which I think there's a place for that, but what hard data do we actually have? And I think the excitement over Gen Z males is in the reformed evangelical circles driven by a patriarchal understanding that men and then

13:28fathers, when they become fathers, are going to lead the family. So if the man is a Christian, the family is a Christian. This is a super spreader. And Vody Bachum has a quote where he says, as goes the family, so goes the world, as goes the father, so goes the family. That's true. If you have a properly functioning family, that's true. So I don't want to diminish any of that, but I do want to look at the numbers. What do we actually have? And so one of the great ways to figure this out is by looking at not just Bible sales, which are up. Thank God for that. But also Bible reading, Bible exposure. So we have Barna and we have the American Bible Society both putting out data points on this. Barna is looking at exposure to the Bible, which could even include YouTube videos and stuff. It's more broad. And they're saying that, hey, it looks like millennial and Gen Z males are really into the Bible. So 54% of Gen Z males, 57% of millennial

14:34males, according to Barna, as a percentage of the US adults are reading the Bible weekly. That reading obviously is broader than just the text. Whereas Gen X is 43%, boomer males is the lowest at 28%. And it's just the trend is growing in millennial and Gen Z males. Now, I'm going to point out something here. The trend is also growing among Gen Z females and millennial females. In fact, it's quite the jump in 2025. You see that the previous, I think it's maybe this is the 2024. So the previous year is 27% of Gen Z females, according to Barna, are reading the Bible weekly. And then it jumps to 46% in 2025. So it's showing a massive jump in females, not quite as high. It's not 54%. But it's showing a drastic jump in females also reading the Bible. So the trends are with Gen Z males and females. And the boomers and the Gen Xers, again, reading the Bible less.

15:37Well, the American Bible Society has a different way of looking at this. And I think there's is probably more accurate, even though it's muted. And the reason is it's because the way they do their data collection. The American Bible Society does a probability-based data collection, whereas the Barna research group does a quota-based metric. It's the difference between, if you were, let's say in school, and you're choosing members to compete in a sports competition. And oftentimes it's by size or age or some other factor, people with blue shirts, whatever. If you're working for Barna, this is just an oversimplification, but hopefully it helps understand. Barna is going to look at certain demographics. I need three eighth graders because that corresponds with the percentage of the greater school population that are in eighth grade to represent their class in my narrow sample size. So they're going to choose those people off

16:40the top. And Barna is criticized by some for leaning more pro-Christian, more pro-Bahible, but they get results that are more encouraging in Christian sometimes because of the way they do it. So if you're doing a survey on this particular topic, and you're trying to attract people to answer questions in a survey, and you're doing it based on, I need this particular sample size from this particular demographic. If you want to come do this poll, then it's going to attract people who are already somewhat accommodating. That's the theory at least. Whereas the American Bible Society just does a probability base, we're just going to poll everyone and then see what data we have and then do the math on who fits into what group and how does this reflect the general population, the trends within that population. And whether or not you like the way Barna does their polling, the data results are very different. So the American Bible Society's polling shows that

17:47Gen Z adults in 2024, 2025, so they're comparing 2024 with 2025, Gen Z adults overall 36% reading the Bible. If you look at Gen Z males, you're looking at about this, like I think that's if I can, let's see if I can zoom this in. All right, now I can see it better, 35%. If you're looking at Gen Z females, 38%, so they actually show that females are reading more than males in Gen Z. Now it's about the same old, I mean this is very close. Male millennials, 40% females, 38%. Now they are showing a jump. They are showing a jump, especially in millennials, not as much with Gen Z, but especially with the millennials. There's a jump from 2024 to 2025 with those reading the Bible. Now fast forward to Gen X,

18:47boomers, they are reading the Bible at overall higher levels, especially female boomers, but male boomers as well. They are reading the Bible at higher levels. You got, you know, 49% of female boomers. In fact, with females, with both Gen Z and female boomers, there is a slight decrease in Bible reading over the past year. So it's not very much. It's the differences between two, three, four percent, but this gives you a, I think probably a more accurate picture. I tend to think the American Bible society polling is better. And it reflects, I think, what we're seeing overall in society more. Now, the most accessible institutional metric to test Christian commitment, this is something I thought about among young men in long term future, the long term future of Christianity in the United States, maybe to check whether or not new pastors are emerging to fill the gap boomers are leaving as they exit the ministry. So unfortunately as of now, this picture does not reflect a growing Christian movement. The most common request I receive from churches is

19:50whether or not I know of a potential pastor for them. So pure research, all major Christian groups with the exception of non-inominational Protestants are either flatlined or diminishing. So in other words, when we look at institutions, when we look at actual denominations on the ground, we're seeing broad diminishment. And if this goes for Catholics, this goes for Eastern Orthodox, this goes for, I mean, despite articles about, there's people are being attracted to these things, there could be some reshuffling of the debt going on in a way, but it's overall, the trends over the last 10 years, all diminishing. Lifeway research recently reported that more Protestant churches are closing than opening. And the Association of Theological Schools, and this is all theology schools, okay, in Christendom. So this would not just be Protestant. They have reported diminishing MDiv graduate since 2020.

20:53Now, I specifically singled out MDiv because they actually last year had a spike. They had more enrollment in these seminaries. I thought, well, that's interesting because I keep hearing about these church shortages. And then I looked into the granular detail and sure enough, MDivs are going down. So you have people going back to school, getting their demons, certificates, things like this. But the MDiv, which is sort of your basic pastoral leadership degree, that's going down. And it continues to go down. Now, education's expensive, there could be other factors that are motivating this kind of thing. But again, it's not just isolated. The MDivs going down while these other degrees are going up, or flatlines. So what's going on there? Why is pastoral leadership specifically not as favored in these universities, in these Christian seminaries and universities? Last October, Reform Theological Seminary published an article revealing a trouble,

21:55link trend, for NARPAC churches. 10% of the Orthodox Presbyterian churches, roughly 300 congregations are seeking pastors. 25 congregations in the United Reform Churches have vacant pulpits. The evangelical Presbyterian Church at a nomination of 600 years has learned that half of its ministers plan to retire in the next five years. Presbyterian Church in America has estimated they need for 220 new ministers annually to meet existing needs and reach goals for church planning, foreign missions, and expansion. So this is something that they're at least admitting. We got a problem. I have heard this from other evangelical seminaries and churches and networks in the last year that they're not getting MDivs. The people who do come and want MDivs are not, that they're usually committed to a church already. So they don't really have people to send to churches that are asking. I see this on the ground very much so that there are a lot of churches

22:55with vacancies, churches that will contact me that we've been looking for a pastor for a year, two years, three years, can't find a pastor. There is a pastor shortage. And I think if there really is a revival going on, typically in the past in the Anglo-American world when there's a revival, it means an increase in missionaries and pastors, we're going to have to see that spike. And it may not be MDivs that are the metric for that, right? That's been the metric. So it's worth wild to look at it. It may be people that are homegrown, that are taking the reins, studying the Bible for themselves, and they become the pastor, but the pastor shortage would have to go away. And younger guys are going to have to be rising up. I would expect millennials to be taking the reins in many of these churches, but that's not really happening yet. So what does that mean? And that is a metric unique to men, right? This isn't women in conservative circles, it's not women, it's men, that would be filling those roles. So as religious institutions

24:01diminish, there is a popularity still though associated with the Christian brand. So what's that about? Barnas Pulling showed an increase, especially among millennials and Zoomer males, willing to say they made a personal commitment to follow Jesus. So is it all vibes and feelings and trends that are causing people to shift towards a favorable view of Christianity, especially on the right politically? I think the answer to this is actually pretty common sense. It's straightforward, and if you've lived through the last 10 years of life in the United States, it's no mystery. The institutions that attacked you, that you felt threatened by, that lied to you, that said, things like a mask is going to protect you from this virus, and the vaccine is going to protect you from this virus and social distancing, and you got to not go out and hide in a bunker somewhere. But by the way, you should go out to protest in these peaceful protests. That's a good moral thing to do, right? All of that that happened in 2020. Those people, those are the experts, those more

25:03liberal secular elites among us. They seemed also, guess what? Not like the church, and at a root fundamental level, that's their main competitor. It's these Christians in the Bible belt. It's this institution that has stood the test of time, that is so archaic and outdated. We got to get rid of it, and I think it makes total sense why someone growing up in this environment would think they're wrong. They don't have any moral authority. Maybe they're enemies. Maybe the people they target and say are the bad guys. Maybe they actually have moral authority. And that would basically just take a list of the enemies that liberals have. That would drive a favorable view of all those different categories, including Nazis, by the way. It's no mystery to me why people think that Nazis might be good if they haven't done a lot of research. And if they've been under the impression for so long that Nazis constitute one of the chief enemies of liberalism. Well, Christians have an even more significant place as a villain category among liberals in the United States. And so,

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27:10think, ah, maybe those Christians are onto something. They're also, I think, looking for rootedness. There's instability. There's lack of moral foundation. People want a place of belonging when they come from unstable households. Where are they going to find that? Where are they going to have a place that tells them who they are, gives them meaning, and also significance in a broader moral scheme. But they're not just matter and motion here today, gone tomorrow, existing for pleasure. They're actually here for a purpose. And I think church offers that. And so it's no mystery why young people living in the late stage of empire, claps, nihilism are going to be attracted to something that gives them some tangible meaning. However, does that mean that there's a revival underway or about to happen? Does that mean this interest is generated by a hatred for sin, love for Christ that is going to spill over into true discipleship and all the blessings that come

28:12with living as a Christian in various capacities within society, including as magistrates. And the answer to that, I think, is maybe, but possibly no. We don't know that that is going to be the end point of this. You also have competitors from false churches that claim to offer the benefits of Christianity without the root truths of Christianity, denying the role of Jesus, denying the importance of recognizing sin and repenting, denying the place that the Bible has and how authoritative it is there. There's going to be, and there already is, many spiritual directions someone can go and gain in their mind, some of these blessings, these byproducts, these things associated with Christianity and religion, without having to give up sin. That's the temptation in all of this. And I think we need to be realistic about that. There's also a pagan right out there willing to offer these things in a more vult kind of setting

29:18that the identity of a certain class of people are going to offer you the significance you seek in religion. They're going to be elevated to that status. The ancient ways of these pagan religions, the Marius, European contexts are going to offer this rootedness, this forgotten past that will hopefully make you feel like you've come home. You also have, like I said, false churches. Churches that aren't going to confront the sins of our time, but are going to soft pedal those things and emphasize and reinforce grievance and whatever felt needs exist. They will focus on them to the detriment of the offensive truths that Christianity offers that must be contended with before arriving at the blessings. These are real dynamics. Now, I waited to tell you this. It's actually previous in the article, but I waited to tell you this so I could tell you as

30:19you're looking at this chart. This is a chart from Barna. Again, not my favorite polling agency and all of this, but I think they pick up on a real trend, even though it may be exaggerated that young people are more willing to say, I have made a personal commitment to follow Jesus that is still important in my life today. 67% of males and 61% of females. I want you to notice the first thing is females are also increasing in this poll. The idea that females are just going the other direction, well, not according to this poll. So if you use Barna's research when it comes to males, but you ignore what they're saying about females, you're not being honest. You've got to take them both. Now, millennials show the most enthusiasm. 71% of males, 64% of females saying they made a personal commitment to follow Jesus, Gen X and boomers cooler, Gen X 66, 64, boomers 66, 62, male female. So this is what the Barna research group thinks is happening. Now, this is what I waited to tell you. I'm going to tell you now, scroll back up here. Barna noted an important trend

31:23when they were doing their state of religion research in America. And they were saying, look at this enthusiasm. I mean, it's similar numbers here with the enthusiasm of Gen Z and millennial males when it comes to Bible reading and females, but they noticed something and they said, quote, in 2000, so 2000 before Gen Z was around 43% strongly agreed that the Bible is totally accurate in its principles that it teaches. Okay, 40, keep that number in your mind. That number fell below 40% in recent years, but now sits at 36%. Even among self-identified Christians, only 44% strongly affirm the Bible's accuracy. What's Barna telling you? The amount of people in the United States in 2000 who believed in the Bible's accuracy is comparable to the amount of people within the church now who believe in the Bible's accuracy. Self-identified Christians,

32:25so they might be in church, they might not, but they are in the Christian fold according to their own thoughts about themselves. Now, that is staggering. So even as you're looking at this research and you're saying, look at the spike in Bible reading, look at the spike and people willing to say, hey, I follow Jesus. There is a drop, a significant drop in, well, I don't really believe that stuff. What do you make of that? Now, this is a broad statement about population as a whole, not a good statement. And I think those who are trying to come up with a rescuing device here to say, look, it's not the Zoomers, the Zoomers are in a revival, they're going to try to place all of that blame on, it's got to be the boomers and the Gen Xers. They've just got to be abandoning scripture at such high numbers that when you average it all out, the Zoomers and the Millennials are somehow now the bulwark of Christianity in the United States. But again, previous data that we

33:31looked at from Pew Research on just the general population and their views of religion and church attendants don't bear this out. So what's actually going on here? How do we account for there is a vibe shift, there is an enthusiasm. At the same time, we don't seem to have the broad recognition that this is capital T true. And we don't seem to be filling up the pulpits. Churches are needing to find pastors and they're not finding them. The MDiv is going down even as seminary enrollments go up. In fact, I don't know if there's any study on this. I just know from being around the block on this, this is likely very true. The institutions that were mostly focused on training pastors, so not academia, but actual pastors, not counselors, actual pastors. I'm talking about Bible schools

34:31primarily that aimed at sending people out on the mission field and in the pulpits. Those brick and mortar institutions have been shutting down for the last five, 10 years in high numbers. And the enrollment spikes at places like Liberty University and other big brick and mortar gigantic Christian institutions. A lot of that is the result of these other places being shut down. And this gets complicated, but just having worked at Liberty, attended Liberty, having attended masters and southeastern and just having a lot of connections to Christian institutions. My perception of all this is that a lot of parents will send their kids to Liberty University because they want their kids to stay out of trouble. They're not necessarily on a ministry track. Liberty University, they have a seminary which is probably compared to some of their other schools, one of the smaller ones to be quite honest with you. Not insignificant. It's just not people think that Liberty is this really, really Christian place. It is in a pop Christian sense.

35:36They have Christian bylaws. They have a lot of Christian derived rules and there's a culture of Christianity there, but Liberty University is not a seminary. It's not a Bible school per se. You'll get a dose of Bible, but it's a safe environment for a lot of parents to send their kids. And there are some very good schools there. I love the history department there. I think the music programs phenomenal. I think I've heard great things about nursing. I mean, there's some really good schools at Liberty and there's also some schools that are not quite as good in challenging, which I won't talk about, but I'm very positive about Liberty. I loved my time there. But when you have, I don't know, something like Piedmont University, for example, shutting down and there's many examples of this. Where does all of that energy go? It goes to places like Liberty. And so, yeah, enrollments up at these mega places. But the MDiv program is down. So, how do you categorize that? That would be your young men waiting in the wings to take on Christian leadership.

36:44I think some guys might think, well, the boomers aren't handing over the keys. That's what's going on here. I'm telling you, there's openings all over the place where boomers have already retired or died. And these churches can't find people. This is a severe problem that I hear about all the time. And I try to help people I know who are looking for ministry positions connect with a viable choice. But this is a very difficult thing in our current environment. And I just don't know that that would be a difficult thing, whether end of or not. If you had just a lot of young guys who were super motivated towards the Bible and identifying as a Christian and getting involved in Christian institutions and making sure the church survives, that gap is going to have to be filled. And I am keeping my eye on things to see if maybe there's a delay. And within the next couple years, we will see that. That would be an encouraging sign. Look for that. If you start seeing that leadership vacuum filled by people devoted to Christ, filled by the Holy Spirit,

37:48who are seeking the education because they love the church, which is really what it comes down to faith. I love the church. I love Christian ministry. This is what this world needs. I'm led by the spirit to use my gifts because now I'm a child of God. That is going to be the encouraging next step. That's going to be evidence that there's a real revival, especially among men, because men fill those positions in these conservative circles. So I'm just going to close with a few thoughts for you on this. I do hope and pray that a revival will take place. I just see a little reason to believe we are in the midst of one, despite some of these positive trends. By definition, an authentic revival is prompted by a move of the Holy Spirit in which he produces true conversions that in turn generate disciples and strengthen the church while inspiring Christian influencer out society. This is what past revivals did look like. I wrote about revival in my book against the waves. One of the things I focus on are these high profile conversions. Some of them have since me writing about them,

38:53like Kat Von D, I think, was one I focused on. At this point, I'm not even sure where she's at. I think she might have done Eastern Orthodox. She was, I think, Baptist at the time independent. And people are on these arcs, on these journeys. And then ground is shifting very quickly. And so I am positive that we are seeing conversions. I just don't know exactly where everyone's going to end up. It's sort of like 2020 was the glass that had all the sediment at the bottom. And it got shaken. And the sediment is all stratifying as it falls. And there's layers that we have not perceived yet that are still forming. That's what it feels like right now in 2026. And I don't say that as Candice Owens feels. I mean, that's what my observations are telling me. And one of the things I noted was that some of these high profile conversions or at least positive references to the Christian faith, even people like Elon Musk and Joe Rogan and Blake

39:59Shelton's wife, Gwen Stefani and Denzel Washington and Tim Allen be reading the Bible. And even Tucker Carlson, he's more of a political commentator, but he's reading the Bible, right? All these people who are saying positive things about Christianity. I said, there's really not a lot of cachet in these liberal more elite circles for saying, I'm with Jesus or I like Christianity or the Bible's great. You don't gain much of a benefit from that. And so I am tempted to think and still I'm tempted to think that much of this is authentic. Whether it's conversion or not, it is a willingness to go against class interest, which can reward and benefit you and either do one of two things. It's authentic. And so I don't care. I'm just going to be authentic and I recognize my social influence and I want people to also explore these things or and or there's a new market that I'm

40:59perceiving that's out there. And I can actually gain on social media now with access to popular audiences, people who will resonate this. So it may be a good career move, right? So these are two options kind of sitting there that could explain or a combination of them explain why there's more positivity now, an upswing at least in celebrity circles of saying I'm a Catholic, I'm a Christian, Bible's good. We need more aggressive, more masculine, more, you know, really unashamed Christianity. I mean, I think that's what Elon Musk and Joe Rogan have talked about. So I talked about this. They say it's positive. But that dynamic. But at the same time, I also recognize there is a market for Christian identity on the popular level. And I give some examples. I said, especially on the political right, there's a spectrum. And the spectrum ranges from Christ's king, Edgelords, like former MMA fighter Jake Shields, who uses the phrase to provoke Jews.

42:01And he he specifically says this. He says, I've, quote, I've always been clear, I'm not a Christian. I use Christ as king because it makes Jews and Gryfters like James Lindsey angry. Okay, well, if you want to make the Jews angry, then you just say this word and that's popular right now. And I don't, you don't have to be a Christian to say Christ is king. Judgment day, Jake, not going to be good when you're using that's. I was taught as a young boy. If you use Jesus's name to express disgust, that is taking the Lord's name in vain. You don't do that. His name is to be revered and respected. And our society treated it that way for a long time. You do something like this. You do something like I'm going to say truth about Jesus. But you do it specifically because you are attempting to cause an offense to a particular group, not because you believe it at all. In fact, you don't believe it. And you're willing to say publicly, you don't actually believe Christ is king. But you see an advantage to be gained by using that particular phrase. How are you any

43:10different than the, and I realize there are some differences. But on this particular point, how are you any different than the slick back use car salesman type of prosperity gospel preacher who just uses religion to get what they want. I mean, that's essentially what's happening. You're just using it even though you don't believe it. You're willing to say something you don't believe. That's obviously not a good thing, even though Christ is definitely king. And those words are going to come back to haunt you unless you repent, Jake. So you have people like that online. But you also have people like Cole Swindell in his country chart top or make heaven crowded, in which he sings, I've kept Jesus in the back seat, but I can't any longer. If you listen to the song, through the action of the shooting of Charlie Kirk. And he basically just says, I have been in church-related cultural or Christian circles. I've been a coward. It's time to get serious. You know what really matters? I perceive that as authentic.

44:13That is someone who is saying, Jesus really does matter. Now, I don't know where he's at in his quote-unquote relationship with Christ. I don't know if he's born again, John 3. But I do know that he is looking at Jesus and taking him seriously and viewing him in the proper place that he is king, he is Lord. And he's also saying that his law ought to be followed. And maybe not following it is part of the problem with our country. That's a very authentic, positive statement. And I think you have this spectrum. You have both of these things happening. You have just sort of an upswing in an identitarian thing, some of it authentic, some of it not. A handful of times recently, I personally noticed young men showing up at my evangelical church. This is true. I have seen guys show up on a few occasions. And there's no prompting. There's no connection.

45:14They just show up one day. Sometimes it's just that day. Sometimes it's for a few weeks and they leave. Sometimes it's for a few months and they leave. And sometimes they show up and they stay. But there is a lot of searching for belonging. And then trying to determine, based on how you feel, while you're at church. And you know, how is this lifestyle? How is this group of people? How is this belief system going to work for my life, determining whether or not you'll adopt it more permanently? And a lot of people say no to that. And so I do think this is real. I just don't know how much of it translates into actual conversions. That's the open question right now. Scripture tells us that a heart ready to convert is motivated by a hatred for sin and a love for God. And only the poor in spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven. So there's got to be a humility there, a willingness to give up sin. If you don't have that, if you're not submitting to Christ

46:18by being born again, then you actually are not in the fold, the true eternal fold of Christians. And yes, you can do things to support Christian morality and a Christian core that already exists. But you still need that Christian authentic core to have a cultural Christianity. Without it, there is no cultural Christianity. That's the question, is are we going to grow the core, or is this just an outer layer that says the core was good, but I'm not going to join it. So cultural Christianity has a value, but it can only survive if a core of true Christianity is at the heart. And there seems to be a growing interest in the benefits of Christian identity and culture, which can be positive, but can also produce a cheap counterfeit. And I'm noticing a lot of decadence and vulgarity online, especially among people. Well, not especially, but I would say extended to people who say things like Christ is king and say they're Christians, and there's just a coarsening. And I can't think that that is a spirit-led thing. It raises questions in my

47:21mind about how much of this growth is merely an identitarian trend that will not endure versus an authentic faith. So the results are mixed. I think there's some really good things to camp out on here. The political right is no longer embarrassed by Christian identity, and that's encouraging. There's also a growing recognition that we must be tethered to transcendent truth, which is likewise positive, but will we be willing to humble ourselves or pence surrender our sins, take responsibility and receive the grace of God? That remains open. So clearly, we need to preach as the church, as Christians, the practical benefits of Christianity, stability, wisdom, blessing, and prosperity, but we cannot detach those things ever from the central message, which we must emphasize more of Jesus, the one who calls us to repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. So here's my conclusion. There is not a revival producing the kinds of results we would expect from the true revival. However, there is a window of opportunity as ears are open to hearing the Bible, considering whether it holds answers to the problems that afflict them and viewing our Christian

48:23influence past with a positive perspective. So let's recognize that opportunity. Let's witness and share the truth, especially if you're a pastor, realize that those dynamics are happening. And if you see guys or young people show up at your church randomly, they are searching. They may have heard, I don't know, Jordan Peterson. I realize, Zoomers aren't probably as much listening to Peterson, but if they're a belidio, they might. They're listening to someone who's saying what Peterson has been saying, which is, what else have you got? You need some stability. You need some narrative to explain your life. You might as well go to church. That is something I think that we can recognize and we can say, hey, you're looking for stability, you're looking for morality, you're looking for, you want a wife and a job and the proverbs, principles that produce wise living, it's right here. Come on in, join the Bible study. We love you. We're going to help you. Older folks have got to be engaged without older folks connecting with younger folks. We're in real trouble. That's our link to the past.

49:27So don't be afraid to do that. If you have to be a little awkward, be a little awkward, but invite the young people over to your home, start those mentorship type relationships. And as you're doing this, though, never shy away from the truth. Look, you got to repent of your sin. Number one, you got to give it up. What is it? What sins are you holding on to that prevent you from actually submitting fully to Jesus Christ? What things are you guilty of? That God will judge you for, that God will condemn you and put you in a place the Bible calls hell. Jesus talked about this for that you should repent of, turn from and place your faith in Christ. And that's the second part. You must place your faith in Christ. Fully, no pride, only humility. There's nothing you bring to Christianity, but your own sins. You bring a weight that Christ takes off your back and then he equips you to do actual spiritual good. It has to be viewed that way. If you don't have the humility,

50:29if people can keep their arrogance, pride, whatever it is, pet sins, filthiness, dirty habits, sexual habits, I mean, I don't want to name every sin that seems commented, hey, but if there's a softness on those things, then you can expect to have a lot of self-righteous people show up and think they're good now because they're part of your group. They're washed in the blood. They're parted Jesus's team. They're good to go, but they've never actually been born again. So make sure those two things exist in tandem. And I say the same thing, said this for years actually. I mean, nothing's really changed. I've said this about the contextualization model that produced secret sensitivity and even the urban kind of blue city third-wayism of Tim Keller. It's all designed to reach these particular demographics and it's softened some things while hardening other things

51:31and inserting this here and tweaking this there and changing the faith, morphing it into something that's palatable. Now they would always say, well, we're explaining it differently or we're trying to contextualize. But I showed you through my Keller series, no, they're actually changing and shifting things so that they'll be less offensive to a certain demographic. And we can't do the same thing with just a different demographic. You can't just be about contextualization among you know, Gen Z emails now is if that's the new formula. Yeah, you can grow an online audience doing that. But is that going to be a lasting authentic true rooted institutional church when you go to heaven, you're going to see their faces there kind of thing only if the gospel's there. So preach the benefits. Preach the the great way of Jesus and how it makes your life better. The biblical truths make sense. But don't neglect the gospel. That is my message. I hope that resonates. I hope that helps. Hope that's encouraging to you as well. But encouraging in a measured way that you

52:35know, here's what the data says, let's not go farther than that. And let's keep our eyes open, our, our, our ears open and let us also keep our knees bent in prayer because we do want to see a real revival, real change. And if this is part of the avenue that leads to that because there's an interest, then praise God, let's be the workers for the, the fields are right for the heart. So thank you for listening. I appreciate you being part of the conversations that matter podcasts. And until next time, fear God, stand strong and love others. Bye now. If you're a podcast host, listen up this once for you. My name is Ali Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Height, a dating and relationship podcast that I've been doing for four years now, sharing my positive and practical approach to dating that's built on my own life experience. And I wanted to share another experience that I've had my secret behind monetizing my show.

53:38It's called Red Circle. And I was just telling my colleague about how much I love their platform with Red Circle, not only am I getting a seamless hosting experience, but I also love the support I receive in ad sales. It's not just typical ad sales, either. It's targeted opportunities based on my show and my life. And the platform is super simple. You just set your preferences and Red Circle matches you with sponsors that align with your show. You can vet every opportunity and their platform gives you great analytics. More recently too, my Red Circle team has brought me opportunities outside of my podcast on social media to really augment the podcast partnerships, bring them full circle. I just can't recommend them enough. If you want to give it a try, go to redcircle.com to get your free trial. That's redcircle.com for a free trial. Every day the world gets a little weirder and a lot more awesome. Cool stuff daily takes a look at everything from mining and space to the latest in the fight against cancer to how AI is basically changing everything. It's all the cool stuff you didn't know, you need it to know. Join us for cool stuff daily as we take a quick look at science, tech, and the

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