Artemis II Helium boogaloo

0:00So utterly at variance is destiny, with all the little plans of men. What good would the moon be to men? Even of their own planet, what have they made but a battleground and a theatre of infinite folly? Small as his world is and short as his time, he is still in his little life down there far more than he can do. No, science has toiled too long forging weapons for fools to use. His time, she held her hand. Let him find it out for himself again in a thousand years' time. Hey, she wells there, clearly being pressient about the Artemis timeline, a plan so obviously in chaos that the mess is visible from 1901. But, let us not doubt the impoververicates like a Boeing engineering team, we have a podcast to record. I'm Paul. And I'm Jenny. And welcome to episode 170 of All Sun Astronomy for March 2026. Hello there, you gorgeous space baby.

1:08Oh, hello darling. How are you? Oh, stressed. I just... You look... This time... Yeah. Science communication is one of those jobs where you have periods and of time where everything is happening all at once. Yes. And it's completely overwhelming and on top of dealing with drains and like the work being done in my attic means that everything is everywhere and mess is very stressful and it's just... Oh! It is, it is, it is how I feel. Life can come at you all at once, sometimes it can't it really. Yes. And this is what's happening right now and I'm sure they're really stressed. And science communication is, it's feast or famine a lot of the time that you can have loads of work on and none and often that go inside with when everything else happens in your life too. So yeah, you... And don't get me wrong, I love my career, I love my job, but it's just a difficult time right now. Yes, yes. Which of course, we mentioned it in the last episode, your dark matter drained.

2:11My dark matter drains, I have an update. We have an update. They be flowing. They be flowing today. They be flowing, they fix it and we don't really understand how. So before I kind of regale the end of the story of the drains. So we bring something because we had an email. I know, we're starting to get emails through. So thank you everyone who has been emailing us constantly, helping us fix this problem. We think we've got to the root cause, we have some emails now, there is a huge backlog obviously because we haven't been able to access them for months, but we are going to start making our way through them, especially in this episode. So thank you. And if you have emailed us recently, we are going to get back to you. We are going to be reading them out, it's just going to take us some time, but we really appreciate it. So, our first email actually comes from Ray Cosmic Blaze McCarthy, who says, hello awesome astronomers, glad you found the problem with the email, listening to the latest edition RE, the Disgusting Smelly Substance offering advice based on 30 years of working in the

3:14sewage industry. Cheers, right? Yeah, I know. It's useful. So, Dr. Jan, it sounds like the waste pipe from your kitchen sink, washing machine, etc, is the problem. If the manhole is clear, it could be the lateral connection from the kitchen to the main sewer pipe, which is fed from the manhole. It might have broken or collapsed if it's a salt glaze pipe, usually on older properties, this is an older property, I don't know exactly when this one was built, but the house across the way from me has got a sign that says 1910, so it is an older property, or someone could have used a plastic waste pipe and it's cracked, hopefully this will help great show and enjoy the cruise, Dr. Jan, regards Ray and a cloudy Essex skies. So, I don't know if a pipe is collapsed or not, it may well have, but I've now got flow through the pipes, and we don't really understand how, because we had a day where I am not joking, pulled out like a foot of black sludge, and I know this is not just me, because I've been

4:16in this house less than a year, so, you know, and I'm pretty vigilant about using the catches in the sinks and stuff like that, right? I honestly, I don't know if I was, yeah, pulling up stuff. Yeah, you were trying to describe to me the other day what this sludge was like, or the colour of it, the shadow, how sort of glossy and shiny it and everything it was. Oh my god, and some of it was solidified, and like it just stunk of ammonia, and I think I was pulling up stuff from the last moon landing, like it's just been in there for so long. But, so we did as much as we could, we poked, we prodded, you know, we were using rods, we were blasting it with the hose pipe, we were poking it with bamboo sticks to try and break it up so that we could like scoop more of it out. Nice. We did hours of work and eventually we just got to a point where we can't do any more, let's just leave it for a few days, we ordered like stuff to go down the drains. And then we left it for a few days, pulled the drains back up and we looked in the drain and we were like, that hasn't filled back up, that looks like it's clear, question mark. And so then we pulled the manhole back up, my uncle had the bright idea of get your

5:20washing up bowl and like fill it and we'll pour like a deluge of water down to see if it will go through, went straight through, he was watching it, go through the manhole. So all that digging turned out to be worth it now. It could be that I have a cracked pipe and it'll build up again and you'll get all the, but yeah, but for now, it's working, so we're going to see, there we go. I know. Like that, I can open a new business now, Dr. Jen's drain solution is limited, Dr. Jen's drain, solving the mysteries of dark matter in space and in your sink. Your company motto, let's get this moving, but yeah, so it could be a cracked pipe. I just expect that there is more going on than just clogged stuff. But for now, while I've got all this other crap going on, that crap is flowing. So as far as I'm concerned, it's fine, but thank you very much. So what else other than your sewage dark matter problem, what else have you been

6:21up to? I did something nice. I don't think I talked about this on the last episode, I think I saved it for this one. Oh, I went to a kitchen star restaurant. Oh, get you. I know. Not just one kitchen star, too much in style. Too much in style. I know. Oh, fancy. It's not, it is fancy and like it's not a thing that you would do like all the time. No, got it. It's a very much like a, you've got to treat it a bit like a weekend away. It's like an event, you know, it's like buying concert tickets or something. Oh, completely, completely. You know, it's like one of those special things that you sort of decide to do. And Juno, I wasn't convinced. I wasn't sure, but I had an absolute blast. Oh, yeah. The whole thing took like five hours. Oh, yeah, yeah. Once you're there, you realize why they got a mitchet in style. Yeah. You're always a bit skeptical. We used to do, before we had kids, we used to go like make it a thing that would go to one, like one mitchet in style restaurant a year. Yeah. Just like. Yeah, as a special event. When we had money and time and stuff like that, my children.

7:23And it was it. You always still had it every time. Even when you've been to a couple, you think, oh, is it going to be worth it? Is it actually, and you get, and the food is just completely next level. It's just incredible. I had no idea the carrots could taste so good. Yeah. They don't get me wrong. I love a carrot. But we went, so the place you went to is called a theme in, and it's in Birmingham. And it's some Indian based, it's like Indian inspiration and stuff. And we had one dish, and this is the one that lives in my brain rent free. And it was like carrots, carrots, all different ways. And like they were cut out into little flowers. And the thing is, it's not just like, they don't just like put the food in front of you. There's like a whole story with every dish. There's a, like, food. And they, like, had stuff in front of you, and we did the wine pairing. I like us smashed. No. So drunk. It was the drunkest I've been in months, like literally, like I was with my partner in his uncle, and he was like, you were just slowly sinking down in your seats, between courses.

8:27You were just getting lower and lower and lower, and then apparently by the end, like, underneath my eyes was just perfy and like, great, and we went back to his uncles. It was half past seven, and I went to sleep. Oh, it's really good, though, it's great to go through it, matching some of the questions are amazing. Yeah. It was amazing. I think it was like, I don't know how many courses it was, it was like 12 or 15 years ago. And you get the little mini courses between courses and stuff like that, and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, so if anyone who's like, I'm not sure about this Michelin Star, I wasn't sure about this Michelin Star thing, but give it a go, and you will not regret it, like it is. No, it's a fun, and it's a whole experience, and that's what you've got to remember is it's not you, not just going out for dinner, like it's a whole thing, takes hours. No, no, no, no. The one, the one the way sticks away is the one that's shut now, the Gavrosh, which was the really famous one in London, it was really like back from the 60s.

9:29It's been like a kind of, was a top restaurant, it was one of the first Michelin Star restaurants in the, in the country. It closed, I think it was last year, before it finally after like 50 years or whatever, it closed down. We went years ago, and it does the whole thing, as you say, it's like going to the theatre, it's like a piece of performance. It was just the most incredible meal, just stunning, absolutely stunning, that was made up a years ago. Yeah, and like everything is considered down to like, what cutlery they're giving you for each dish is thought about, and the lighting, and the high positions of everything, and all those things. It is, it is like, I remember the main meal coming up, and it was literally the whole team of waiters was just yours for like a couple of minutes, where they brought everything simultaneously, and then kind of, duh, just reveal the whole thing on your table simultaneously, and it was just like, so it was like washing a symphony kind of on top of this, just

10:29incredible. Yeah, and like you can see the, well the one I was in anyway, you can see the finishing kitchen. So apparently most of the cooking in that is done at this like hidden kitchen, but then there's like a finishing kitchen, and then like you could see them all working, so that was amazing. Yeah, it is, it is, it is completely worth it, so they're always really expensive, but they are. And that's why it's a treat, it's so you've got to think about it, like it's a, an event, and then- So if you're pennies, as you say, it's like going to a concert or something like that, it's just worth, worth once in a while, if you've, if you've got, you know, save up some money, and it's honest, I'd rather do that than go on like some big expensive holiday sometimes, I think it's just like- It's, yeah, it's definitely a thing that's worth doing, yeah, as instead of doing a weekend away, you go and do like- Yeah, it's good. It is good. That kind of thing. So what have you been up to? Well, I've been up to, actually not a great deal, not a great deal, since we last spoke, but I've been just busy, just in that sort of working away, just, you know- Yeah.

11:30Because even like our back channel chat has been so quiet. So just, yeah, just been really busy, really busy with kind of life and work and just, and the weather's, the weather's improved a lot, but it still hasn't improved massively in that we haven't actually had much astronomy yet, still. Yeah, like it's warmer, but I can't actually see some blue as we're recording. Yeah, absolutely. But, and the few clear nights we've had, I've been working, I've been in other work, so he's like, ah, I love it all, I'm sorry. So yeah, but it's just been, yeah, life's all good, it's just busy, just really kind of- I did go away, I think I mentioned it, we mentioned that last episode, I can't remember if I mentioned that last episode. You did? Yeah, when you wake south, well, so it just blurs, you see what time and, you know, what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, other than that, not a great deal, not a great deal, just been kind of chugging along and being busy, basically, and then suddenly it's like, oh my god, it's the middle of the month that we should record. We need to record, yeah. You know the record. Yeah. So, the other thing I've got to mention is that I finished my lectures now, for sure

12:33to meet in action. Oh, yeah. Wow, another batch of lectures. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it went well, it was nice. Well, I enjoyed it, I think they enjoyed it. Yeah. We, if you know, had our discussion for what we're going to do next time, always, it's always nice, because I always ask this at the end, because at the end of the day, they're paying for this lecture course, so they may as well learn what they want to learn. Is it a meat just kind of choosing things? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, there was dark matters on the list, quite topical, compared to what we were discussing last time, the edge of the solar system is another point that they're interested in doing. So, yeah. So, that'll come back around now September time, so, yeah, we'll be here, so we'll be here. We should probably get on with a few, this is our chatty muck chatty episode, where we're

13:35just going to kind of... It is our chatty muck chatty episode. Sort of just blunder through various things, it's kind of astro waffle, if you like. Yeah, it is. We have our very kind of structured episodes, at the start of the month, then this is our just like kicking back with a gin slash whiskey, so last couple of toys. Well, to be honest, this time a cup of tea. Yeah, although exactly, we are recording this at lunchtime. Yeah, lunchtime, so because we've been so busy. Because we've been so busy, yeah. Let's throw in quick lunchtime, I'm available this lunchtime, so we're sitting here, we're sitting here in, yeah, broad daylight cup of tea, doing it daytime, doing it daytime. Doing it during the day, so, Artemis, yeah, so this is our chatty muck chatty topic of choice. It is Artemis, and it's not because, you know, Artemis 2 has rolled back and there's been issues.

14:35I mean, there is that, which will just cover very quickly, but there's actually been enormous changes to the programme, which we do need to discuss. Old, old, old, Jared has grabbed the reins, isn't he? I know. I mean, this is like, this is the very first kind of, I think, thing where we've seen Jared kind of grab the reins and try and kind of do something. And I think it's amazing, but before we get into it, let's just, so where are we with Artemis 2? Where is Artemis 2? Where is it now? It is in the vehicle assembly building. It's back in the van. It's back in the van. We did, we did guess. We guessed it would go back to the van, didn't we? Now, the wet drowsy hood, so that was very successful, it's afterwards that the problems arose. So this is when they're transitioning from testing configuration to flight configuration. And during that switchover, they use helium to pressurise the engines and to kind of keep them in a flight ready status. And unfortunately, the upper stage, so this is not the orange kind of liquor.

15:38Liquid fuel bit, it's not the solid rocket booster that you see on the side, the tall skinny white things. This is the upper stage, it's like the end bit, that develops a helium leak, and so then the engines weren't conditions, and unfortunately, it's a part of the rocket they can't access at the pad. No, they said it had to get that. You know, literally, didn't we say, didn't we guess, that there would be issues and have to go back to the van, they would have to do some disassembly, they would have to go and get, there's nothing they could do on the pad, we literally said this. Yeah, I know, honestly, they should just hire us, but I don't want to keep picking us up, but we seem to be like, nostro, nostro flipping darkness for example. We are, we are. We are. We are. Prophetic pool. Exactly. Yeah. We are sitting here with our crystal balls going like, Artemis is not going to go, it's going to go back to the van. I know. Yeah, right, it's crazy. It is. Yeah, so it's currently back in the vehicle assembly building, they have determined what the issue was, a seal in the, so the in the umbilical that puts the, how that seal got

16:43in there. I don't know, but they're teasing it out with some fish. Sorry, sorry. That was a bad joke. That was a bad joke. That was a bad joke, but a seal got dislodged. Yeah. They don't entirely know how, but that's them was inhibiting the flow of the helium, which is why then, so it wasn't so much of a leak, but a flowing inhibition. Yes. And so they've replaced the seal, they've replaced a few other seals, they've replaced some batteries while they're at it because the batteries have a finite, um, like time. So they're like, well, we're here, we may as well, they've reflashed, refлashed, refлashed, refлashed, refлashed, refлashed, some supply, he's what I'm trying to say on the crew capsule, um, and the sandwiches, the sandwiches have gone off from the, you know, the pictures are going to be sticking the mold off the bread, so you know, the cherry on top was going a bit stiff and, yeah, so, um, so we're, I think soon we're going to hear the announcement.

17:43I mean, maybe even as this episode goes out, it's going to be rolling out again, because they really do want to hit this April launch. I don't think it will go in April, but no, but I think it may go kind of me. I think it'll go out, um, whether they're rolling it out, and then there'll be some other issue. I don't think it'll go back. I think it'll be out at the pads now, and I think it'll probably go may, I would love for it to go close to go. I did go. Don't get me wrong. I don't like I'm hoping it, but I just, it just feels like it's, sorry, this has just been the ultimate thing. It's just. Yeah. Yeah. I, so I think, yeah, it'll go out soon. I, I'm not sure they're going to make this April launch window. We're recording on the 10th, um, it's, and they've got a whole wet dress rehearsal again, and they've got to, you know, they might, when, when's the window? First of April is when it opens. Yeah, that's tight, isn't it? There's 20 days. It is like 21 days. So it's 3 days. Yeah, because they, they need about a week and a half.

18:45They need to be on the pads about a week and a half, the full launch, because they have to do a wet dress rehearsal, which takes a few days. Then they have to turn it around for launch. So it's a bit tight. It's tight. Yeah. It's basically a bit tight. It's basically a bit tight. So they, they've got to get it out to the pad. That takes basically like essentially a couple of days for it to be all there and up and then plugged in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit, it's a bit touch and go. So maybe medium. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not the main focus of our discussion. No, no, no, no, no. No, our main focus of discussion is that they are completely overhauling the whole Artemis programme and I think you're in agreement with me that this is absolutely the right thing to do. Oh, I was really excited by this. I was like, finally, someone has had the balls to actually stand up and say, Artemis is not working. This is not right. This is how it is. Yeah. Probably listen to it. I bet Jared, Jared, probably listen to Hello, Jared. It's probably, you know, I'd love it. Yeah. Jared, if you listen to us. Yeah. Yeah.

19:46Yeah. He's probably listening and going like, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. But we've said this for a while, and various people have said this for a while. There's not just us. There's various podcasts and shows and if you've sort of been following after us, I've been saying, this is really weird kind of programme line up, what they're trying to do, the schedule and which missions, it just seems all very old and chaotic and a bit messy in this. Yeah. And I think the biggest concern that we've had is the huge gaps between launches and the huge leaps in kind of achievements slash technology that's required between missions. Yeah. So it's like, you know, Artemis 1 to Artemis 2, we're over three years at this point. Yeah. And the kind of, the technological leap between the two is not too bad because it wishes an uncrew test and then a crew test, but to go from this, Artemis 2 to Artemis 3, which was going to be a landing mission and we don't even have a landing act. No, no, no. It was always that kind of weird thing where you sort of, it was such a big jump in the,

20:55you're going from essentially in the, in the kind of historic way, we're going from kind of Apollo 8 and we haven't done Apollo 7, so we're combining Apollo 7 and 8 and then we're jumping straight to 11. Yeah. It's just, it's seen illogical and dangerous and Jared Eisenman has finally pulled the plug and said, this isn't safe, it isn't in our interest to do it like this. And so he has completely revamped the Artemis timeline and it's brilliant. So now, Artemis 3 is no longer the landing. Yeah. 3 is going to be a low earth orbit mission where they will, the main kind of goal is to practice rendezvous in. Now, this is interesting with one or both lunar landers. Yeah. But that, that's the crazy thing because they were going, all right, let's, let's go

21:57and do essentially Apollo 8, one big mission, let's just kind of combine that and go. And then we're going to just jump straight to, let's go to the moon, get in a lander and land. So do you have any practice like a crew docking that they, this would work? Yeah. And it's not even the technological side, it's like giving the crew a chance to practice doing it. Well, it's, it's the ground crew, it's, it's mission control more than anything. I mean, because actually, they're various astronauts who are practiced in docking because of course docking is something we do all the time now, in space, because the ISS, yeah, exactly. So docking is not an unusual activity. But it's still new capsules and everything. Yeah. But it's, it's a, it's a sort of known quantity in terms of like the crew and the crew you attend would have that kind of experience. So it's not white and then simulator time and stuff like that. These simulators are very good now and you know, so that's not too crazy. It was more for me, the procedural thing of mission control. Yeah.

22:57They've got to practice that kind of, you know, what, what, what are they doing? How are they running this mission and, and all the little kind of problems of it? And that's what, you know, Apollo 9 was, you know, Apollo 9 is this kind of testing, they were getting all the procedures for, you know, going into the, the module and docking and the rendezvous and all that, but doing it in an ortho bit where it was nice and safe. Exactly. If something goes wrong, they can get back quickly. And he's actually in the crew can train in that, but it's actually more about mission control going right. We need to go through all the procedures here. We need to actually write the manual on this. So we know how to have the, like, what, what the little pitfalls and things out of the loop. Yes. It's roughly like if this, if this flashes up, can we ignore it or do we need to do something and do it? Yeah. And sometimes the two you actually physically do that. The crew would perfectly find like, yeah, we look, we've docked spaceships before, but then it'll be that kind of whole procedural thing and then doing it. Of course, then you go and do Apollo 10, which is where they're going to do it around

23:59the moon. And then they did Apollo 11. And it was really weird. So it was just going like, right, we're just going to go and do fly around and come back and then we're just going to land. Yeah. And it was just, yeah, exactly. So they've now rammed it, rammedied to this. So Artemis III is this low earth orbit docking practice. Yes. Scheduled for 2027, and I thought it was really interesting that the wording was very specific. It was with one or both landers, because now it's not just SpaceX with their starship supposed lander, but also blue origin. You've got Jeff versus Musky Boy. Musky Muskler. Yeah. And yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion, they've introduced that in a way of trying to encourage them both to get the hell on with it, because both will want the glory of being the people who put, because when it was just one of them, it was like, we'll deliver your land

25:01at some point. Yeah, it'll happen. We know. And now there's competition, and it's now there's a push to go, well, who's going to be the first guy? Yes. Who's going to get their first? Which one's going to be successful? Yes. And the blue moon lander, which is the one from the origin, we haven't actually talked much about. No, no, we haven't. And so there's actually a cargo mission planned for this year to the moon with blue moon. And it's a big lander. Yeah. It's a capacity of 3,000 kilos. I think it's eight, eight meters tall, it's about the size of a tardis, like an old telephone box. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. Well, I remember seeing when they very first announced it long, long time ago, when they did that surprise and else was like, here's blue moon, and it doesn't look different. But the original concept lander, that they presented, that you know, Jeff stood there and went, eh, it's my lander, shining head, shining head.

26:02It was huge. It was a big arse thing. But it's a different concept in it, it's actually much more, it's much more like the old kind of Apollo moon lander and it's kind of concept, basically, it needs kind of originally. It's changed a bit, but it's not a big arse rocket sitting on it's bump. No. No, that's the key. That's the difference. Yeah, and the thing is, like, I'm going to say it and I know that anyone who likes Elon Musk is going to listen to it and they're going to be swearing at us. But Starship has done, what, 13 flights now, something like that and has still not done a little bit of it. We still have that orbit of one, yeah, we still have a little bit of it. It's not been in the space, but blue. Yeah, blue moon is going to the moon this year, you know, even if they mess up the landing because you know, they haven't been before, so they may well, but they are at least going to the moon. This is, we were having a little chat, well, I say, you and Dustin were having a little chat about all this yesterday, we were working and I was like, I saw my message count. Pink pink pink pink pink pink pink pink pink pink pink pink, because you're two of you were having this conversation about Artemis and things, I was like, what the hell?

27:06And I think my, my top unsworth actually, because we've been a bit down on it all and it's saying actually, because we were talking about how quickly we get there, China, stuff like that. We're saying, if there is what a country and an organisation that could get to the moon quickly, yeah, it is NASA and the USA. It is, it is, it is, you know, absolutely given the right money, yeah, America and NASA could, could be on the moon, well, that's for something two years easily. And I think especially like, with Trump as president, he really wants us to have for the end of his presidency, his presidency, he really wants it. So I think they could end up with like a big cash injection to make it happen. Exactly. And, but why would argue is the reason that I say that with, you know, I think I'm saying, yeah, the Americans and, and that's because it's because actually they've done soft controlled landings on the surfaces of places for years. So you look at Mars, you know, you look at how, who's, who's the organisation that's got things on, on Mars regularly and safely now, it's, it's, that's it.

28:08They have that capability and they have that, that, that kind of knowledge. And this moon is different, but it's also principles and they've landed on the moon and all those, you know, they've got all the, the things they just need the money. And that's what we've been saying for a long time is it's, it's not about, it's really the money thing that they just have, this has not been funded properly and they're trying to do it on a budget and they're trying to shortcut it and so it was always, and then they pick the wrong things like bloody great SpaceX thing that's, you know, landing a tail lock on the moon, you know, yeah, what does concern me about both landers though that are proposed, because they are both tall and skinny. Yeah, so say there's all the commercial missions have shown us this far, the tall and skinny balls over. The skinny thing is, yeah, it's, it's a bit more, I think the, it's, I don't know why they haven't kind of contacted Firefly Aerospace, they are the only commercial company to successfully land on the moon and conduct a full mission. Why haven't they approached them and being like, can you make a human version?

29:09But what it shows you is the, the, the technical ability and the knowledge and, and the tech, it does exist and exists in the state and if you, if you threw the money at it and made, you could make this happen and it could, it could land on into years, they won't, I don't think they're going to land on the moon in two years, that's not, I just don't think that's going to happen. Yeah, I think that's a good point to mention is that the landing is now Artemis 4, which is scheduled for 2028 now. Yes, which is two years, is it, but it's, the thing is, yeah, we, we got to see what happens with Artemis 3 and the docking and, and the landers and to see what's ready and, and I've got a funny feeling, it'll change again. I don't think Artemis 4 will be the landing. I think it'll be Artemis 5 and Artemis 4 will be Apollo 10. Exactly. As was exactly, exactly the same thing. I think an Artemis 4 will end up being basically a Apollo 10 mission where they do a big dress rehearsal of the landing, they do everything but, and then it will be 5, which will be the big, the big, stupendous landing in probably about 20, 29, 2030.

30:10Yeah, and I also wonder if they'll kind of do an Artemis 4A and a 4B, where they do this, the whole thing with the crew when they do everything but land, but then the part B is they have a lander that actually goes and lands and takes it off with no crew on it. With no crew, but just to make sure it can be done. Because that's something you could do very much in, it wasn't, they didn't have all the automations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas now you could actually do a, exactly, you could do an autonomous mission with a, with a, yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. I could absolutely see that because I think what Jared is kind of saying is like, this was too risky. This was far too risky. We were going to kill people during this. And there's been independent reports that have also said that, they've said it's just too dangerous. We don't think that the Artemis program, this is like government reports, we were saying that it's too dangerous in the way that it's being found out. Too many short cuts. Yeah. Trying to do it bizarrely too quickly. Yeah. But it let it, like, over a huge, huge time tape, it, it's, I mean, you look at the Apollo,

31:13the Apollo program, you know, when you look at, you know, Apollo seven, so that's the first crewed flight of the capsule that works, that's October 68. Then yeah, December 68 is Apollo 8. So they go to, you know, just a couple of months later, yeah. And then March 69, you get Apollo 9 testing the stuff in all bit, then May 69, you get Apollo 10, they go back to the moon and do the dress rehearsal. And it's July 69. They land. So literally October to July, they do all the things that basically the Artemis program is doing from three years ago, yeah, hasn't done yet, yeah, we're probably doing a couple of years time and it's, yeah, it's like, but they were also trying to short cut it and it was all just a mess, it was just a, yeah, and this is what Jared is saying is that he wants the cadence of flight down to 10 months is the goal between launches, and I think that's, given the budget, that's good. That's good.

32:13Yeah, it is. This is what we've said about China in the China may well get there first, not because they're actually thrown loads of money out of this, but they've thrown a decent budget at it, and they've had a decent plan. And they seem to have a decent plan that's kind of staged, and they're kind of working through the program, and they've put an amount of money in that's, we don't quite know how much money they've put, even the piece that they've put a reasonable in that's kind of funding it and getting the milestones ticked off. And that's the problem with it. They just haven't got the budget at the moment, and they never haven't, it's all a bit of a mess. This is the thing. If you're going to do something as like stratospheric as going back to the moon with people, you need the money. Yeah. Yeah. You do. And so we were talking about this on the back channel, because Destiny was like, I think China's just going to do it. They could do it really quickly, and it's like, actually, no, I don't think China will do it quickly. I think they have a solid plan for 2030, and I think they will be 2030 when they get there, because they have lots of things that they haven't done yet.

33:16They haven't sent their crude lander to the moon, and back America has done that. There's no kind of, sorry, when I say crude lander, I mean, like, a capsule is why I should say a crude capsule has been to the moon and back. They're imminently going to send people to the moon and back, right? Like the moon's vicinity. China, there's no signs of China doing that anytime soon, and so these are all incremental steps that China will need to do before they do a landing, but you know, they're 2030 time, right? Yeah. And I think, I think China, I think China are very much in that sort of, if you want to kind of compare it to Apollo, they're very much in that sort of tight and Gemini stage. Yeah. Where they're working on their lander, all the stuff is being developed, and so the astronauts are in that sort of era of, they're going back and forth, Yangon, to that given their crude experience in space, the Gemini crew is going up and meeting and docking with the, what's it called? I've got the name of the blue in docking thing they had, but they're getting the skills base and the mission controls getting the experience and stuff like that, and they've

34:18been doing some probes to the moon, which, yeah, exactly. They're kind of mirroring what was going on through the 60s, and of course, they did take that whole decade to get there. So I think they, you know, they're doing it in that kind of similar way, and then what you'll see is that that kind of, if you like, the Apollo bit will kick in. In the same way it did in America, that it actually was only in the last couple of years of the 60s that the Apollo bit kicked in, and that will happen in China. You'll suddenly see their moon, actual direct moon bit, will kick in from that, you know, 2027, 2028, and suddenly they'll, I think it'll be around 2028 is when I think what starts really seeing their kind of crew moons, I mean, they're still doing lunar missions. They've got another one planned for this year. You'll see something there, their version of Apollo 8 and things like that, that happened, and then sort of like, oh, yeah, they, they, they, they, they, they, they test a lander and stuff like, you know, it all kind of just suddenly happened. Yeah, but it's always like, you know, yeah, and China's program is looking a bit more like Apollo 2.0, whereas they know that Artemis, they want to be long duration, but then, you

35:21know, also China have not sent people to the moon before, so you would anticipate that their first stages would be more Apollo 2.0, you know, it's all about what is it you're trying to do, and I think of that, that, we've said this before about Artemis, is that whether we don't, there's no clear, I think the problem with Artemis is no clear aim of exactly what it is they're trying to, are they just trying to go back because they want to go back and then want to plant another flag and say, like, look, it's still out of our moon. Yeah, because there's no timeline on when it's gateway happening, when a module is going up, like what exactly, or is it, they want to permanent base, this is the next stage and which way, is it, is it elite frog to the Mars, or is it actually a thing itself, is it? Yeah, they talk about all that, but it's like, where's the plan? What is the actual, what is, yes, exactly, it's like, how many missions are you doing before you do X, Y, Z, and we could argue the same with China, like, we don't actually know what it is, but in a way, their goal is much simpler in that, it's like the 60s, they just actually want to get to the moon and be that next country, the plants are flying out, we've got here,

36:23look at, look at what we can achieve. So the, in a way, they've got a much more, whether you think you agree with it or not, it's much more pure, simple goal in, we want to show our greatness, we want to show our, you know, technological ability by getting to the moon, landing on it, putting a couple of shorts there, putting a moon there, the flag there, coming from off to going home, and then we'll take it from there, whereas it's not quite clear, because the Americans were into the moon, it's not entirely clear what it is they're doing. And that's, I think that's part of the ultimate problem, is when you're trying to sell it to the public, and you're trying to sell it to the tax pay, and you're trying to sell it to set in senators, and you're trying to sell it to the bottom, what is the bottom line actually doing? Yeah, why are you buying this big ass rocket and all its bits? You know, that's what, what is the bottom line? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it's some, it's an interesting one, but to summarize, yes, what's happening with the Artemis revamp, SLS rocket is being streamlined, they're not having different configurations for every

37:24Artemis, and this is the speed at manufacturing, let's just streamline the whole process. So Artemis rocket's moving forward will be very similar to the current configuration a few minor tweaks, none of this block one, block two, block one B, it's going to be set, and then it's going to stick there. Artemis 3 now is a lower th orbit mission for rendezvous with starship slash, blue moon slash both, then that's 2027. 2028 is Artemis 4, supposed to be a landing, potential for 2028 to also have Artemis 5, a second landing, Jared Isaac, when once cadence, 10 months between launches. Yeah, I think it sounds, sounds pretty good. That doable gets a bit of a, yeah, and we want to say thanks Jared for pulling the socks up on Artemis and making it realistic. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, he's done a great job and it's realistic. That's why he's not gone, I want like six months or four months

38:29or something between, you know, it's like 10 months, it's like realistic. That's really like saying, yeah, like years too long, but let's make this happen. But yeah, so yeah, see what happened. Yeah, and if anyone's listening, you know, can like forward this episode on to Jared, yeah, yeah, yeah, we will, we will, we would love it if it didn't know that he was listening to us, wrap it on. Yeah. Should we want to e-mails? Should we move on to some e-mails? We've got loads of them. We're not going to do a world today, are we? We are not. We are finally getting our e-mails back. So yeah, thank you to everyone who's been contactable. We're going to Visto. My God, I mean, I think he's, he alone has like pushed most of the e-mails through because when we said keep e-mails, he kept e-mailing us. Yeah. So yeah, we've got loads to get through.

39:30Obviously, we're not going to be able to fit them all in this episode, but we're going to kind of go through them in our second episodes of the month over the next few months, and we will work through them. So keep e-mailing us because you guys have sent us all sorts of stuff. Yeah. Like, it's been comments. It's been like, look at this cool picture I took. There's also a live. We were trying to work through a bunch. So go on this crack on then. All right, then. So should we, let's have a self-glowing one to begin, should we? Go for it. I like a self-glowing. Go on. Oh, let's do that. So we've got when comes from Gavin Huggett from a very cloudy Bournemouth. I was in Bournemouth. Yes, the Sunday. Actually, I was in Bournemouth on Sunday. Look at that. Oh, look at that. Look at that. And Gavin says, hi, Dr. Jenny and Paul, I've been an avid listener to the show for more than a year now, and you've kept me company for many, I lonely commute. I apps, I know. Thank you for listening to us. I absolutely love the show, and it's one of my monthly, now bi-mentally. Thank you.

40:35Highlights. I love the interactions between you both. It's had me giggling to myself for many occasions. Well, it gets us giggling. So it glows, it gets you giggling as well. But I also appreciate the effort you put into research in current topics and giving us the benefit of your own expert inside and opinions. I really enjoy the new format. The skyguide is brilliant. I love the introduction of the Moonguides. That was another listener's idea. It was. Yeah. Yeah. A puzzlingly overlooked object, and I enjoy hearing about its features, even though I don't own a telescope being a bit of a binocular enthusiast myself. I see a lot of binocular astronomy. I still do lots. In fact, it's pretty much the only astronomy I've done this year is a little bit of binocular astronomy. Yeah. And whenever I travel, it's not telescopes that come with me. It's binoculars. So all I took on holiday this year was a pair of binoculars that came months ago. A couple of weeks ago was a good pair of binoculars that cannot be underestimated. It's like they're brilliant. Please keep it coming. You guys are simply awesome. It's in the name. We see what you did there, Gavin. You're Gavin Huggert. So yeah, thanks, thanks, Gavin. Thank you

41:39for listening to us. Cool. And if you've only been listening for a year, if you go a bit further back in the repertoire, there's lots of interviews from back in the day that you may enjoy. We've got astronauts and scientists and all sorts of interesting people. So do go and check out the back catalogue and have a dig into those. Right. Who's next, then? Let's have a look. So next, I'm going to throw it at you here. Okay. Alistair Frith. Oh, hello, Alistair. Yeah, hello there. Long time emailer. Yeah, exactly. You found the show. Big final show, friend of the show. Hi, team. Given that the main issue with the tall thin landers, Starship, et cetera, is their propensity for falling over, I'm just wondering what is the feasibility of building a nice flat landing pad before we send the space deal, though, full of cosmic cement. As they're discussing. And I love it. Can lunar regolith be used as a cement to make a flat smooth level landing pad? Can we land accurately enough

42:45to hit it? Surely we can. We've been doing some earth for a few years now. Just a thought, I'm sure it must have been looked into land a squat robotic lander with the machinery to cement the regolith, build the pad, then land the big rocket on it. Thoughts, I said, now this is interesting because actually I was reading a thing the other day, which I was going to slot into an episode in the future about the problem of landing on the moon. Okay. And this idea that actually, basically all the crap that's kicked up every time you land a rocket on the moon is basically, we think is slowly creating a sort of very, very corrosive, wrong, abrasive. That's the word I'm looking for, abrasive cloud around the moon. Because lunar regolith can levitate. Exactly. And the reason it can levitate is essentially in a nutshell, because there's no protective atmosphere, no protective magnetic field, it's more than magnetic field than anything. But you get it gets bombarded by like charge particles from the Sun and then that in parts charge and then

43:47they can start floating. Yeah. And so you kick some up and it basically is, it's still safe. And there's a paper I was looking at, say I'm good, it's one for the future, one for the future, one for the future where it's basically creating this sort of cloud of stuff around the moon. And if we keep landing loads and loads of big arse rockets, there's a risk that it's actually going to kick up so much stuff that it's actually going to be problematic, that it will affect senses. It will affect landers, it will become more abrasive for like spacesuits and all these sorts of issues. And so actually they are seriously looking at this though, if we're going to just keep landing on the moon, actually we probably should sort of have a way of making pads. So if you're going to have a permanent base there, actually you need a landing pad because you need to not be doing nothing. Yeah, but landing accurately is an issue. So the slim lander from Japan a few years ago wanted to land with an accuracy within a hundred meters and it achieved that.

44:52And that is as accurate as you can be, that's like the tip top at the minute. So it's not like landing on earth. Now part of that issue is when they're trying to land, they're trying to avoid obstacles. So actually if you've got maybe a landing pad that's like the size of a football field, you can actually land on that, you know, you can be accurate to within that kind of size. But it would have to be an enormous landing pad. And then it's like how many launches are you going to have to do to take them to your lap there? But exactly, but although I think once you've actually got some stuff there, you can actually then add some guidance equipment that draws in your rocket so much smaller pad. Like a beacon. You need some beacon. This is where you want to land. Exactly. We have that technology. We absolutely have that kind of ability on earth to kind of, you know, it's how you blind land an aeroplane at night in the fog on a runway. So actually, I think it's all perfectly possible. But yeah, this is interesting. It is actually a

45:54massive issue. Yeah. And in terms of using, yeah, using regular to like make the landing pad as it were, China's actually going to try using lunar regular in 3D printing on their next Changi mission, which is scheduled for this year. It's one of their technologies. As you see, can you use lunar regular if you have 3D print bricks? Because their idea to build a moon base is to use regular to make bricks. So you don't have to take everything with you all the time. So that would be interesting to see. Yeah. So the technology, I think, for using the regular as a building material is kind of on the horizon, but it doesn't actually exist yet. No, no. And like, I'm going to be honest, this kind of debris from launches is what concerns me about Starship, because did you see the size of the crater that it put under the launch pad for the first launch when there wasn't the great big metal plate underneath it? This is, this is a side. I mean, we do want to get too much into this we've talked about before. But yeah, we need bigger landers for the moon. But I wonder if there

46:57is going to be a sort of a limit, maybe? Like, yeah, exactly a limit on how big and perhaps things like Starship and perhaps even blue moon potentially are actually too big. So certainly too big initially when you haven't got a pad to land on. Yes. And that actually you can only land on the moon with probably bigger than Apollo, but small-ish landers because actually you're going to cause a massive problem throwing this regular thump in the air. And yeah, into the into the the what do you call it? What would you call it? Throw it because see, this is a problem. We were like, it's not the air, isn't it? Yeah, you know, just thinking about that's the completely the wrong thing. Because it has an exosphere. Yes. This is not an atmosphere, it's called an exosphere because it's like so 10 years. Throwing you to above the surface, doesn't sound quite right, but yeah, into the exosphere. Yeah, and that's yeah, so yeah, interesting. It would be, it's one to, one to follow. That one to, so yeah, that's just kind of picked up on the other thing then. Yeah, really interesting discussion point. Right, next, go on. What's the next female? Next, we've got Peter Leverdingke. Hello Peter, long-time listener,

48:02we know, friend of the show. And Peter says, because you're asking for it, I'm always asking for it. Here you go, another email. Hopefully this one arrives promptly without e-path the electronic postman getting attacked by some e-dog causing problems. And because Paul mentioned it as he pretty much does for all things, I spent some time imaging in the month's prior. Here's a go at the jellyfish nibble. Yeah. From 36 degrees south, where it gets to about 20 degrees elevation. And he sent a link to his astro bin. He says, cheers and noot, because you know, he is our penguin fancier friend. Peter, I've had a look at your picture. It's gorgeous. It is. It is gorgeous. Image is what I should be saying. It's beautiful. So congratulations, even though it's only a 20s degree elevation, you have done it, Justice. It's a gorgeous image. It's gorgeous image. I absolutely love it. So thank you for sending that across to us. So we're jellyfish though. Yeah, if any

49:09listeners do want to try and have a look at his image, it is on astro bin. And the username is Kaffwego. So C-A-F-U-E-G-O Kaffwego. Go and hunt it down. Give it a thumbs up. It's a really, really like you've done it, Justice. And thank you so much for sharing it with us. It's one of those images that you think years ago, that would have been like, you would have been really impressed if that had come from like a professional telescope. You would have been like, wow, that's really cool. And the fact that this is now like amateur level stuff, as it still blows my mind at that, that is the kind of like image and detail and things that you can now people are able to do. It's just, it shows the skills of people, like Peter's. And I actually take my hat off because someone just draws stuff. Yeah, I do take my hat off to these people's fellow. I know. I always take a minute, you know, like kind of eyes imagery and like, but actually it is, it is a hell of a skill really. And the effort and time they put in, you know, it's just that I always, the reason I

50:10sketch is actually I get instant results. I can't be asked. This is why I like, I like a sea star and I like my phone because it's Instagram. I'm going to be perfect. I love an image. I just haven't got the patience. It's just the time and effort to do the kind of aspect of photography that Peter's doing, that it just so much goes into it. And you get extraordinary results, you know, it, the time and effort that you put in, it is reflected in the quality of what you produce. Completely. So congratulations, Peter. So to sort of finish off, I've got, he's sent so many. He's sent so many. He's sent so many. He's sent so many. And I've got to, I've got to do Vesto. So I picked one. Oh, Vesto. Hi, we are alive. I've picked one. I've picked one. So he said, I've got one from Vesto too. It is so sad to hear of the defunding of British astronomy. The once great nation that discovered such things as that line that runs down the entire

51:13earth through Greenwich. Another celestial fax has fallen on hard times. I understand that you have that great big Brexit to pay for, but still it's sad to see British science let go, like some old manor house with a leaky roof and pieces falling out of the stained glass windows. Perhaps Australia come to the aid of old blighty. Like we did during the war, send us your poor huddle brits, some coal to keep warm and some beef jerky in oranges to keep the rickets away. With sympathy, Vesto. I just said just abuse me that one. That is a good one, but yeah, we haven't talked about the the Darth of British astronomy. We mentioned it a couple a little while ago. We did about six weeks ago and yeah, I haven't followed that up yet. That's probably for next month. We'll have a little. Yeah, it's a good actually. We should do a follow-up and see where we are on that. On that way, that's going, but yeah. And I have another email from Vesto again. Oh, Vesto. He's in my list, so I've got Vesto says, with no reply from you for months.

52:16We're sorry, Vesto. It's not because we hate you, it's because we couldn't get into our emails. I'm beginning to doubt if I exist. Surely you would at least acknowledge with a simple, hey, or unless like in that Bruce Willis movie, I've passed into the other side. But I am in denial about it and hallucinating that I hear voices coming from my pod player. Are they really only me my own imagination? No, we are still alive, Vesto. We have just had many issues accessing emails, but now we are getting back on track. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. That brings us to the end. That brings us to the end, because I think we've rapidly done enough, and we got loads more emails, so we will do some more. We have, and we are going to work through them, so if you have heard of Merce, we haven't read you out. Now it's working. It's going to happen over the next few months. Thank you so much. We've had so many people. We have got Scott Jorgensen, his contact with us. We've got Roy from the Isle of Wies, all sorts of people. Who else? There's more Vesto.

53:24I'm just flicking through. We've got Ian Cook. We've got. Yeah, there's all sorts going on here. All sorts of people. All sorts of people. All emails. There's loads and loads of emails to get through. We are going to, so thank you ever so much everyone who has contacted us. We're so glad that you are still with us and still listening, and it's not just us shouting into the void, so thank you ever so much. If you do want to email us, our email is still for now, the show at awesomeastronomy.com, so that's the show at awesomeastronomy.com. Let us know your thoughts, your feelings, your send us your pictures, your videos, send us questions. Tell us what you are for dinner. We've got questions or answer, but we thought we'd just throw a few out there a bit more and just see how we go. And so, until next time, it's goodbye, from so don't you base.

54:26Awesomeastronomy is produced by Ralph, Paul, Jen, John, Damien and Dustin, and it's free to use with attribution. The music by Star Solzman with Stinger Variation by Rin Jorgensen. We promote general science, astronomy, space exploration and rational thinking with more resources on our website at awesomeastronomy.com. If you want us to read your thoughts and comments out on the show, send us your views, opinions, critiques or questions to the show at awesomeastronomy.com. Tweet us at awesomeastronopod.com. Give the awesome astronomy Facebook page a like and leave your comments there. Thanks for listening from side only base and with transmission.