AUDIO EXTRA: A Conversation With Elizabeth Smart

Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Sprit. One of the things I love the most about this community is how

much we care about telling the right stories in the right way. That's exactly what Dark

Down East is all about. Investigative journalists Kylie Lo digs into cold cases and missing

persons from New England, working closely with families and communities to advocate for

the truth. If you care about justice the way we do, this podcast belongs in your queue.

Listen to Dark Down East now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Sprit, surprising you in your feed with a special interview.

Back in 2021, Ashley and I released our episode Survived Elizabeth Smart,

where we walked you through Elizabeth's kidnapping and truly remarkable return.

If you haven't heard our original episode covering the case or just need a refresher,

please be sure to go back and listen. We were so fortunate to be able to speak to Elizabeth

about her experience, giving you all a chance to hear from Elizabeth herself. But that was just

a small part of a much larger conversation that we had with her. And that is what you'll hear

in this episode. The full conversation between Ashley and Elizabeth back from 2021 to give us a more

in-depth look at everything she survived and her life since. We originally released this in our

fan club, but are bringing it out of the archives for everyone today. So now onto our conversation

with Elizabeth Smart. Hi, Crime Junkies. For all of you who are interested, we wanted to give you

a little peek behind the curtain. So we just released our regular episode called Survived Elizabeth

Smart. But if you like, we are also releasing this episode, which is just the raw audio of Elizabeth

and me sitting down, doing the interview, having the conversation that you hear part of in the

episode. So if you are interested in the whole thing, take a listen. And just so you know,

I think there are moments where I say something like, oh, don't worry, this isn't for the podcast,

or we don't have to use this. We did get her permission to put everything out there that we have.

And I'm glad because I think Elizabeth has so many important things to say. So enjoy this audio

extra and don't forget to listen to the regular episode that this is made for Survived Elizabeth Smart.

So Elizabeth, where I'd like to have you start is really giving the listener again that where we

kind of leave off is, is you have been found. And the public now for the first time actually gets

to stop speculating and understand what actually happened. So if you can tell us about the night of

June 5th, 2002. Well, the night of June 5th, 2002, honestly, it started off just like every other night.

I mean, there was nothing different about it. There was nothing. I guess it was evening of June 4th.

There was nothing different. I mean, it was a normal family dynamic. You know, we went to bed.

Everything was normal. And the next thing I remember was hearing a voice. And it was a man's voice.

And I didn't recognize it. And I didn't think it could be real because Ben weren't allowed in

my bedroom. And so I didn't immediately respond. I thought it just had to be part of my dream

because who who thinks that someone's going to break into their home in the middle of the night and

say, I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. Nobody thinks that

or probably most people don't think that. And so initially, I just thought that it was part of my

dream and I didn't respond. And then the voice at the same words again. I have a knife at your

neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. And that time I could actually feel something

sharp and across my neck. I could feel someone's hand on my arm trying to pull me out of bed.

And I remember opening my eyes and sure enough, there was this dark figure standing over me.

And for the first time in my life, I mean, I was truly terrified up until that point. The things

that scared me were doing poorly on an assignment, not being prepared for my music lessons.

Having my parents tell me 99 times to go clean my room and the 100th time can hear them coming

up the stairs. I mean, pretty typical small thing is scared me before. And so all of a sudden,

that just kind of brought a new meaning to that word of fear and terror. And I remember he brought

me, he took me out of my bed. He took me out through my house, up through my backyard. Our backyard

wasn't fenced. It was just open. It ran into the neighbor's yard, ran into a vacant lot. We went

up through the vacant lot. There were some bushes. He pushed me down behind the bushes and I remember

some headlights coming down the street. I immediately started thinking, this is the getaway car.

He's going to take me to get away car. I'm never going to get away. No one's ever going to find me.

But this car, it didn't stop. And it actually passed right in front of us. But I remember seeing

the word police written alongside the car. And for like that, have a second, I was like, oh,

it's going to be fine. Everything's going to be fine. The police are going to get out. They're

going to rescue me. It's like it's going to be just just fine. Like I don't have to worry about

anything. But it didn't stop. It kept going. And it still knows it was around the corner. He had

me running across the street and up into the mountains behind my home. And I mean, truthfully,

I don't think I've ever prayed so hard in my entire life as he was running me up into the mountains.

And I didn't actually realize how far we had run up into the mountains till much later.

I think I was just so pumped full of adrenaline and fear that I just, I mean, time

almost seemed to stop. But yet this guy was starting to get lighter. And the sun was coming up

right as we topped over the top of this mountain and started down the other side. And we came to

this stand of trees. And this woman walked out of the tent. Well, because in the middle of the

trees, the stand of trees, there's a tent set up. There was some tarp sign on the ground. This

woman walked out. She was dressed different. She looked different than really anyone I'd ever

seen before. And she came up to me and she helped me and she brought me inside of the tent

where she proceeded to start to undress me and sponge-bathed me. And just, I mean, I was shy.

I was, I was a wall flower. Like I was very self-conscious. When you first saw her, like was there a

moment? Because I'm thinking about me as a 14 year old girl. Like a man would have terrified me.

But was there a moment when you saw her where you're like, oh, maybe this isn't going to be so bad?

Like maybe this woman would help you, like as a young girl or were you just as scared of her?

Well, on the way up there, he mentioned that he had his wife waiting for us. And so for a second,

I was like, oh, like maybe they just really wanted a child or maybe they had a child and she passed

away. And I would be about her age or maybe I look like her or like my mind kind of went to a

nicer place than the reality. But and when I saw her and when she hugged me, it wasn't like a

nice comforting hug. Like it's going to be okay kind of hug. It was like if you ever cross me,

you will suffer. I am in charge here. I'm not here to protect you. Like you will do what I want you

to do. And then, you know, she was so insistent in having me undress. And she was so insistent in

trying to make me, well, she wanted to sponge bathe me that I think I was still probably less

scared of her than I was of him. But I also knew that she was not there to be my friend or my

protector. So after she, you know, she sponge baves you, I mean, you don't have to walk through

everything that happened. But you, I guess like what always baffles me is like you went into this

so innocent. Like I mean, by 14, like I was a crime junkie. I think like I knew some of the worst

things that could happen to people. But you've said over and over that you didn't. Like you weren't

even prepared for what was coming. And I feel like you had to grow up in the span of like hours. And

what was, if you could just talk like again, you don't have to get into trouble. Like general terms

of what that was like to go from I'm worried about my homework and cleaning my room to this like

survival mode. I mean, it was, it was terrifying. It was horrific. And yeah, you're right. It did

force me to grow up in a span of hours. I mean, I had heard the word rape before. But it always seemed

like such a far away distant word. It didn't really seem like that was a word that would ever be a

part of my life or the life of anyone that I knew because nobody ever talked about it. No one

that I thought I knew had ever experienced it. So I just, I mean, I'd heard it on the news,

but that was the news. Was that really real life? I mean, was that really? I don't know. Like,

did it really happen? It just seemed so far away. It just didn't seem like it was possible. And

and initially, like, I kept, you know, I kept going through my head as to like, what could happen?

Why they might, I mean, I think my, my mind, it was very innocent. And it kept trying to explain

things or give possible reasons and comfort me into thinking that it would be okay. So as like

the situation progressed, my mind kept on trying to shield me. And finally, like the thought just

came to me was that, you know, because he had, he had said that, you know, we were now married,

we were now man and wife every reason, every excuse that I had given him as to why this wasn't okay,

why this wasn't legal. He came back and he keeps saying it's time to consummate our marriage,

it's time to consummate our marriage. And that, I mean, that just, I didn't, first of all, I didn't

know what it meant. Then the thought just hit me. He's going to rape me. That's what it means. He's

going to rape me. And there's not a thing I can do about it. There's nothing that's going to stop him.

He's a man. He's bigger than me. He's stronger than me. Like I literally cannot save myself right now.

And like I think every victim would tell you that it's devastating on pretty much every level

you can think of. I mean, like physically, you know, physically I was a virgin. Like I hadn't even

hit puberty. I hadn't even had a period yet. Like I'd never had a tampon up my vagina before

anything. I never had anything up my vagina. So that was extremely painful. Like I remember

just bleeding afterwards. Like it was, it was awful. I remember just thinking if this is what

sex is, I never, I never want to have sex ever again. I never want to have this happen to me ever

again. It would just felt like emotionally so destructive that I could not protect myself,

that my whole life, you know, I'd been raised in a very shelter protected environment, which

I'm very grateful to my parents for they did the best that they could. And no one thinks that

you will ever be in this situation. And certainly, certainly not me, certainly not my family. You

know, we we lived in a very nice neighborhood. We lived in a beautiful home. We knew our

neighbors. There were lots of kids in my neighborhood. Just we just didn't imagine anything like

this could happen. So nobody was prepared for it. Nobody talked about it. But then also, I mean,

I did grow up in a very conservative, very Christian community. And there had always been a lot of

emphasis put on remaining, you know, remaining pure, remaining taste, remaining a virgin until

you get married. So then it also brought the spiritual layer of disgrace and trauma and just

feelings of of worthlessness to the feelings of worthlessness that I already felt. So I mean,

it was it was devastating. And it made me genuinely feel that if my parents knew what had happened to

me, that they would they wouldn't want me. And they would just be like, well, as unfortunate as

this is, you know, we had six kids. That's a lot of kids. Now we'll only have five and five kids.

That's still a lot of kids. Wow. That's something that this isn't for the episode. But that's something

that I grew up in like a very religious home. And it was so much of like your worth as a woman

was like put around virginity and and purity to your point. And I don't know. Like, is there

do you think there's a different again? I don't think this is for the episode. But do you think

there's a different way that people in the community? Because I think I think there's if people

want to wait till marriage, if there is, if there is like something pure in in waiting to make the

choice to give that to someone, I totally respect that. I think that's beautiful. But do you think

there's a way like in religion that almost we should talk about it differently? That's not your whole

value. That's not everything you are. And if someone takes that from you, that's totally different

than you choosing to give that to someone. 100% and honestly, I could talk about this all day.

Because I feel very passionate about it because it was very hurtful to me and caused a lot of feelings

of you know, worthlessness and just on worthiness and unlovable. Just it made me feel a lot of

things that nobody should feel. And I know that's common. So I respect people's beliefs like whatever

people want to believe or not believe like that that's fine with me as long as it it's not hurting

another person or breaking the law like you believe what you want to believe. That's just fine.

But I think that it is important that we have these kinds of conversations where we talk about

the difference between consensual, enthusiastic, consensual sex versus rape and sexual violence.

And talk about, you know, where where did these come from? Because even still, you know,

I've met survivors and you know, it was their parents who raped them. It was their dad who raped

them or their brother who raped them or a religious leader who raped them. Or you know, it was someone

that they knew. And so they were like, Oh, well, you know, I knew them. So it's not rape. Well,

most rapes come from people that you know. So I think just honestly really laying out this

groundwork is really important. And just to take a step inside of Christianity for just a second,

I think, I mean, Christianity, I think most Christian religions believe in the atonement

of Jesus Christ. And even if you do believe in waiting for marriage or until, you know, you're in a

serious relationship, partnership that you see yourself staying in for the rest of your life

before you have sex with someone, that's fine. That's totally fine. 100% fine. But also just,

I mean, like should it happen before? Should you, you and your boyfriend or your partner get caught

up in the moment? Like that doesn't make you a bad person. That doesn't make you an unworthy

person. That doesn't make you an unlovable person. And if you know, you do believe in Christ and the

atonement, then how is judging other people based on their morality? Christ, like, how do you

think that you'll talk about it with your own children? Because I mean, they like breaks my heart

to hear you say that like, oh, my parents wouldn't want me anymore. Because like, I can just like knowing

everything that I know about your parents and what they were going through when they lost you,

I'm sure that was the farthest thing from their mind. And like, like, obviously, they know that,

like, none of that was your choice and none of that devalued you by any means. But like, how do,

how do you communicate that to a child without having these graphic conversations? Like, how do you,

how do you say, this isn't all that you're worth? I mean, I guess, I don't even know the question

I'm asking, but how do you plan on talking to your kids so that God forbid, if something were to

ever happen to them, they never think that my mom, my mom, my mom, my mom Elizabeth smart somehow

thinks that I'm less. Well, I mean, ultimately, I did get to the point of realizing that my parents

would love me. Yeah. Even despite everything that had happened that it actually wouldn't change their

love for me. Did you come to that after you got rescued or why you're still there? I came to that

honestly. It was still within that first day. Wow. I came to that conclusion. I didn't honestly

think anyone else would. I didn't think anyone else would want me or have anything to do with me.

But I realized that my parents would. And I came to that conclusion because I had a lifetime,

I mean, my whole prior life before that, I had never questioned their love for me. I always knew,

I knew 100% that they loved me. So for me now, I mean, I have three little kids who may or may not

make an appearance. You know, I've heard some little babies. Yes, they're here. But it's important for

me to make sure that I always, I mean, tell them and not just tell them, but show them how much I

love them and that I love them unconditionally. And I mean, my daughter, she's in kindergarten and

she is so excited about writing the bus to school and stuff. But she's, she's like really anxious

to walk to the bus stop by herself, which she's six years old. I mean, I'm just not comfortable

letting her do that. Like, sorry, nope. Like, we're going to drive you to the bus stop. We're going to

wait until you get on the bus. Like, we're going to be there at the bus stop when you get off the bus

and we're going to drive you home or, you know, we can walk, but I'm going to be there. Yeah,

or, you know, Daddy's going to be there. Like, one of us is going to be there. But like, we take

these conversations as they come because she actually got kind of upset that we wouldn't just,

she's like, you treat me like a baby. And I had to sit down and I had to explain to her, which,

you know, it's hard because she gets really, she's very sensitive. Like when she first learns about

new things, she almost like fixates on it or obsesses over it a little bit. Like when they

learned about fire safety at school, she came home and she was like, Mama, is our house going to

burn down? Is our house going to burn down? Like, when is our house going to burn down? Like,

and so we had to talk about that. When I went to a funeral once, she, she kept on asking me for

months and months and months. Are you going to die? Are you going to die? When are you going to die?

And so these are conversations that, I mean, they're very important to me. I'm very serious to

that I want to help her understand that it's not that I don't think she can or that I think she's a

baby. Well, I mean, she always will be my baby, but not that I don't think she's strong enough to

walk up the hill to her home. I know she is. I mean, I've walked with her, but just why she can't

do it on her own. And it's because I love her and I want to protect her. And I, I trust her

that if anything ever happened to her, that the things that might be annoying right now are

because some bad things happened to me. And I don't want them to ever happen to her. And I recognize

the fact that sometimes I am a bit over the top with it. And my husband, he'll be like, hey,

you need like calm down. You're becoming like a bit too much. But there's this other side of me

that's like, well, Elizabeth, you will never regret being there for your child, but you might

regret not being there. And so having these conversations as hard as it is, I think there is a way

to make it age appropriate without going into gory graphic details yet. And always just reaffirming

to them that how much you love them. I think unconditional love is what helps survivors survive

anything. I mean, I think the human spirit is the most resilient thing on earth that humans can

overcome anything. And I think that they're able to do that because either they know what it is

to have been loved, they have someone that they currently love or they're searching for that love

in their future. And so I think making sure children realize how loved and special they are to you,

that is one of the greatest gifts you can get your child. Here, daughter reminds me a little bit of me.

My mom used to tell me something that drove me insane, but I was very much like I wanted to be so

independent. And she used to say, it's not that I don't trust you. I don't trust everyone else,

the people that I don't know. And it made me crazy as like a little kid. And I like as an adult now,

I'm like, no, I'm like, my mom had it right. Like, why didn't I just trust her? It makes me, it

drives me wild now. Oh, so you were saying something that actually brought something up for me. So

you were talking about how, like, how quickly in that first day, you're kind of like,

it's almost like it's how fast you're moving through these, like, I don't even know if it's

like the grieving process of, you know, in day one, you went from my parents, aren't going to want me

to, like, guess they they will love me unconditionally, whatever that means. In this first day,

did you think that this was something that was just going to happen today? And then you would go,

like, did he just want you for this one ceremony in this marriage? Or did you know from like the

second he took you and is walking you through the mountains? Or when you got there that he was

keeping you? I mean, at one point, he told me that he was holding me hostage. So I, I didn't think

he was going to keep me forever. But then when we got into the camp, when he like did like this

marriage ceremony, when he, I mean, he changed me up, when I started looking around the camp and

like, seeing how well stocked it was. When after, I mean, he had raped me, I honestly not sure if I

fell asleep or I passed out, but one of them happened. And then when I woke up again and he kind of

started telling me some of almost like the rules of captivity, one of them was, you know, you're

allowed to grieve today for your family. But after today, you, you can't cry. It has to end.

You, of course, didn't end. I mean, I kept crying, but he's like, he's also like, you can never,

you can never speak about your family again. You know, you're starting a new life now. So,

you know, you really can only talk about this moment forward. You know, they had changed my name.

They had basically tried to strip me of any and all identity that I ever had. And so,

at that point, it seemed pretty clear to me that they didn't plan on giving me back or letting

me go that they planned on keeping me for a long time. Pineapple on pizza, one topping,

seven toppings, pan or hand toss, whatever it is, Domino's has something for everyone. And for

our limited time, Domino's best deal ever is back. It is the perfect deal for all those topping

levers out there. With Domino's best deal ever, you can get any pizza with any toppings for just

$9.99. Plus, it makes dinner easy. After a long day of work, dinner isn't something you want to

have to use your brain for. Deciding on dinner can get so overcomplicated, especially when navigating

those picky eaters in the family. Domino's best deal ever makes it simple because no matter the size

or toppings combinations you choose, it's all the same great price, $9.99. The whole family will

thank you. Could you imagine what a seven topping pizza might cost someplace else?

And I'm going to be honest, I'm kind of a gremlin when it comes to pizza toppings for myself.

My favorite order is pretty simple. Onions. I love an onion pizza. Judge away. But do not miss out

on Domino's best deal ever. Load up all your favorite toppings on your favorite crust for just $9.99.

Create your best pizza ever at Domino's.com. Prices higher in some locations, select this

online only offer from February 23rd through April 6th. Size availability varies by

crust type. Max seven toppings, six for New York style and pan crust. Stuff crust is extra

excludes extra large and specialty pizza minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices

participation delivery area and charge may vary. I've heard we age in bursts and I have to believe

that's true because 36 hit me like a ton of bricks. My husband too. And it really made us start

thinking about our health. We do the routine stuff like annual checkups and blood work but

that's pretty surface level. And it's hard to get ahead of things that way. And knowledge is

power. There is nothing you should be more knowledgeable about than your own health. That is my

message to you, especially during National Heart Month. Julie, there is probably so much you don't

know about your heart health until you do a deep dive. That's what I like about function.

It doesn't tell you what to worry about. It shows you what's actually happening in your body.

Function is designed by world class physicians and trusted by hundreds of thousands of members.

My husband included. So own your health and start with your heart. Function gives you access

to 160 plus lab tests each year including advance markers for heart health, inflammation,

stress, hormones and toxins for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join using

our link. Visit functionhealth.com slash crime junkie and use gift code crime junkie 25 for a $25

credit toward your membership. I hope that in 2021 most people have a better understanding for

how they could take control of a young, innocent 14 year old girl and make you feel like you had

no options. I mean, I know though early on a lot of people, it makes me sick, like gave you grief

for why didn't you scream? Why didn't you walk away? But there was a man in your home, like to me,

to believe that he would hurt your family or go back is like even me again, I think I was totally

different at 14. I was like already a crime junkie, but I would have believed it. Like you got in

there once, I think you would get in there again. Can you talk a little bit about how he really

controlled you? Because I don't think it was necessarily physical. I think it was so much of it

was mental and one of the pieces that I got from the A&E documentary that you did that I don't

think I really had a grasp on was how he was really like your provider. You needed him to get water

to like just live day to day and can you so can you just talk about that about the methods that

he used to control you? Absolutely. And I just want to just say that I mean these methods there

are not unique to me. I mean, you see it across so many victims, whether it's victims of domestic

violence or rape or kidnapping or human trafficking. I mean, you see these you see these methods of

control and manipulation and isolation and I want to say substance withholding, but that makes

it sound like drugs. No, but I understand. Food and water. But withholding that necessity is almost

necessities. Yeah. So I mean, it's very like it's pretty common and actually there's another word

I would like to talk about which applies to this situation as well, which is called grooming,

which it's funny. I found that if people haven't personally experienced it,

there are actually a lot of people who find it very hard. Not that they don't believe it's possible,

they just have a hard time wrapping their mind around the concept. So I hope I mean, I hope

they don't ever experience it. Like I would rather have them not fully understand it and not

experience it than that have to experience it to fully understand it. I think it's important

to understand though, because even the people in it or people who will never be in it, I think

there are things that people on the outside can even be looking for. Don't you think that? Oh,

100% of watching someone else get groomed. 100%. But I mean, so what my captors did is I mean,

right from the word go, they took away everything that was important to me, everything that was like

a pillar in my life. So they, I mean, they kidnapped me away from my home. So they took away my

family, they took away my security, they took away my friends, my school, even like silly things

like my clothes. Well, I don't actually think that's so silly, but they took away all my freedom.

So that was, you know, they took away that they took away and then things they went to like the

mental level as well, whereas they took your name, they took my name, they took like my religion,

something that I held very honestly sacred to me and they twisted it and twisted it and twisted

it and they would say, well, you know, we really didn't want to kidnap you, but God commanded

us to kidnap you. God has commanded like you should actually be thanking us because we rescued

you. You were chosen. They said all these things to me. I mean, they took it to extreme levels.

That's how they justified every single thing that they did was through religion. And then as time

went on, I mean, of course, they always would say, initially, I was chained up. So the threat of

me escaping was not was not high. It was it was very low. I couldn't escape. I couldn't escape my

chains. But as time went on, you know, they'd always say to me, what if you ever do anything,

we don't want you to do will kill you. If you do anything we don't want you to do and we don't

kill you, we will kill your family. And that felt 100% believable because they had already broken

into my home, you know, the place that I thought was most safe and most secure. And they had kidnapped

me and they had like no one had stopped them. And then he used to bring newspaper articles or

missing flyers from down in Salt Lake back to this hidden campsite. And he'd show them to me and

he'd be like, oh, all of Salt Lake is covered in blue ribbons and light blue balloons. And these

missing flyers are on every tree and every telephone pole. And in the windows of every house and

every every shop, every grocery store, they're everywhere. But no one will ever find you

because I have you. And everything he did just seemed to confirm that. I mean, I remember at one

point hearing my name actually being called as searchers were out searching for me. And I mean,

he was holding on to me and he had his knife in his hand. And he said, it'll be your fault if anyone

comes into this camp because not only will you die, but you will first watch me kill whoever

enters into this camp. And I mean, he had his knife right there, the same knife that he had kidnapped

me with. I mean, it felt very real. And I knew he was capable of evil because I had cried. And

I had begged and I had pleaded with him to not rape me, you know, to not make me go naked, to

not force me to do things I didn't want to do. And just none of it had ever affected him. So

I knew he was capable of evil. And I knew that he would do whatever he had to do to protect what

he wanted. And so to me, that that was pretty clear that he absolutely would follow through

with killing someone who came into came across the campsite who or who came to try to rescue me.

And I mean, he'd always circle back once again to religion. And he'd say, well, you know, God

is protecting us. They won't find us. I mean, I remember there were helicopters. Sometimes they

would fly so low over the tent where I was held captive in that I thought they know we're here.

They know we're here. Like they're going to like I just had this vision in my mind of like

ropes dropping from sides of the helicopters and like guys in full swap gear or FBI gear,

you know, repelling down the ropes and coming into the camp and saving me. I always had that vision

in my head that that would happen. And of course, it never did. And every time the helicopter would

fly away, he would be there and he'd be like, God's protected us again. You know, we are doing

the Lord's work. He is going to continue to protect us. And I never, I never fully believed what

he said was true because there was a very stark contrast between the God that I grew up thinking I

knew and this God that was telling him to do all these things. But one of my survival mechanisms

was just shutting down. Was just doing what they told me because I just always felt like if I

didn't, I would be punished for it. And I knew they were capable of it. I mean, they punished me

before. Why wouldn't they do it again? And so I just, you know, I didn't fight back. I just

did what they said because I wanted to survive. And I didn't want them to hurt me more than they

already had. And I didn't want them to kill me. And, you know, I, I depended on them for water.

I depended them for food. I mean, when they first started, I mean, I was 14 when they kidnap me,

I'd never drink alcohol in my life. When they first started bringing alcohol back into the camp,

they would withhold food from me until I drank what they told me to drink. I mean, and I remember

like a silly as it sounds. Now I went through the dare program in fifth grade and we'd all

made our fifth grade pledge not to abuse drugs or alcohol. And in my mind, I was like, I'm breaking

my pledge, which like at that point was just silly. Like who cares about that? But I mean,

still at that point in time, it was like it just felt like I couldn't keep any, I couldn't keep

any pledge or any promise to anyone or to myself. And that if I wanted to just survive, I just,

I just had to be willing to just honestly like go of who I was and do what they wanted because

otherwise I wasn't going to make it. And one thing that I don't think anyone who's not in a

situation like that can understand is this like instinct for survival. I feel like I've heard

so many people say like, you know, if that were to happen to me, like I would, I'd rather,

I'd rather be dead. But like was there something that kicked in with you that was like no matter

if this is, if this is like my hell on earth? Like I need to stay alive. Well going back to kind of

what I was saying earlier, it was my parents love for me. I mean, even if nobody else ever

accepted me or loved me, I knew that they did. And for me, that was enough. And so that's why I

feel like the human spirit is so resilient, so resilient. And and it's knowing what love is,

hoping to have love in your life, being able to feel love. I mean, that is I, I believe,

you know, why we are able to overcome everything. Can you talk about when you're there? So you know,

those moments where you're hearing your name and I have to imagine or you're seeing the helicopters

the hope, right? So you have these like visions of people coming to save you and the fuel that

that gave you to be like, well, at least someone's looking for me. Like there's probably a time limit

on this. So kind of the hope that it gave you, but then also after the helicopters and there are

normal helicopters and no one is calling your name, what it's like to lose that little bit of hope

it and what that hopelessness feels like a little bit because I always think about, you know,

so much of what you're doing through foundation is because of these people who don't get the

resources you do. And one of the things that stuck out to me as we were doing this next episode

was like what it must feel like to be there and to know because of your color of your skin or who

you are or your family's socioeconomic state, no one's going to come. Yeah, it was always a

battle of emotion when it felt like I was so close and yet so far because on one hand, I did,

I did just want to scream out and I wanted to say I'm here, come and rescue me, but at the same

time, I was dealing with like this enormous level of fear where I felt like if I said something,

I would be responsible for the death of someone else. So that was terrible. And then as soon as the

helicopter would fly away or as the voices, I mean, they were never, they were never that close,

they were always pretty far away. But when they would disappear completely, there was always

just like a feeling of despair and hopelessness to think that I was kind of close. And then, of course,

this time went on and there became fewer and fewer airplanes and fewer and fewer helicopters.

I mean, it was, he was worrying. It made me think, well, people remember me. Well, I just become

another name from the past that sounds familiar that nobody really knows how they know that name or

or maybe they remember what happened, but they just give up hope. I mean, because unfortunately,

you know, those first 48 hours are critical. And the sooner, you know, the sooner you can be organized,

the sooner you can get the word out, the sooner you can be out searching, using available resources,

the better chance you have of bringing that victim home alive. And I mean, that's that's why

we're doing what we're doing. And I mean, I remember when I was in college, I saw this, it was an

article in our college news in the campus newspaper. And I remember thinking, why, why do they have to

do this? Why do they have to drag me into this? But it was actually talking about, you know, why

did my case receive so much attention? And other cases just simply did not. And what it boiled down to

was that I was white. I had blonde hair. I looked pretty. My parents, you know, we had a nice home.

We came from a nice neighborhood. My parents were well connected. And that's basically what they

boiled down to. And I remember at the time, I mean, part of me was just like frustrated and thinking,

well, it's not my fault. I have white skin. It's not my fault. I have blonde hair. Like it's just

the genetics I was born with. Like what I did not ask to be kidnapped. I mean, I felt very defensive

about it. But that article has stayed with me for years. And I mean, I wasn't always as involved

as I am now in speaking out in advocacy and activism. And as I became more and more involved,

I started to realize that actually that's true. I mean, I am not at all saying that what happened

to me wasn't a miracle. Like it's the biggest miracle that's ever happened in my life.

But I also feel like if all these other cases receive the same attention that my case received,

we would see a lot more survivors coming home. And especially when we talk about, you know,

underserved populations that are none more so than the Native American and Indigenous populations.

You know, they make up such a small, small fraction of the whole population. But, you know,

they make up over 40% of human trafficking victims. I mean, that is, you want to talk about

disproportionate. That is disproportionate. It's terrible saying these kinds of things. But

basically if you are born a female and you are, you know, a Native American or an Indigenous woman,

like you won the crap shoot because it's not really a question of if it happens, it's almost a

question of when it happens. And that's not right. And that's not fair. And I mean, it just makes me

feel like that needs to change. And I need to do something about it. And everyone deserves the same

tension that I received. And everyone deserves their story to be heard. And everyone deserves,

you know, to come home. Everyone deserves their chance at life.

When did you come to kind of that realization? Obviously, this has been an ever evolving process

for you, not only of how you have dealt with what happened to you and made sure you were okay

and your family is okay. What made like, you come to this realization that, okay, now I need,

I need to take what's happened and like make something out of it. And then specifically,

was there a case or a reason that drew you to the Native American community specifically?

So like I said, I haven't always been as heavily involved in speaking out or advocacy,

as I am now. But I mean, it kind of was baby steps. It was kind of like waiting into the pool,

because truthfully, when I got home, I needed to heal. I needed to accept that my life was never

going to be what it had once been. I could never go back and be the girl that I was before I was

kidnapped. And so I had to really make peace with this new normal. There was no going backwards.

I could only accept what was here and now. And that was actually really difficult for me.

All of a sudden, everywhere I went, people knew my name, people were pointing at me, whispering

about me, trying to take sneaky pictures of me. And I had been very shy. I had been a wallflower

and I hated it. I hated it. I just wanted to be who I once had been. So it took me a while to

really learn to become okay with it. But my dad, who I mean, I think honestly from the moment I

was taken, he became an advocate. I mean, he has gone up to our state cap little so many time to

lobby and advocate for safety bills for children against rape. And he on occasion would ask me if I

wanted to go with him. And I would always ask him, well, will it really make a difference if

I'm there? And he's like, actually, yeah, because nobody knows better what it's like to experience

this than you. You've experienced it. You know better than a lot of these legislators. But you've

lived it. You understand it. So yeah, it will make a difference. And so little by little, I got

more and more involved. And until now, I feel like I'm swimming out in the ocean about to be crushed

by a tidal wave. So that's kind of how I got involved. And really, what really kind of pointed me,

it was actually my own case that made a pretty big impact. I remember my case. I mean, it was in

the state courts for years. And when my dad told me the initial charges that they were being charged

with, I was really angry because none of the charges included rape or, you know, sexual abuse

of a minor. And initially, when I got home, I didn't want anyone to know that I'd been raped.

I was very ashamed of what had happened to me. I didn't want people to know that I'd been forced

to go naked. I didn't, I just didn't want people to know that anything like that had happened,

because I, I just wasn't confident enough in the world to believe that I would still be worthy

if everyone knew. I felt like people would look at me differently that I would somehow be,

you know, less worthy than the girl sitting next to me to have friends or to be liked or

or even loved one day. And I wasn't ready to give that up. Now looking back, part of me is like,

well, that was silly because I'm sure everyone already knew I was gone for nine months. I mean,

even when girls go missing for just a few hours or boys, you know, men and women, for just a few

hours, I think everyone automatically jumps to the conclusion that rape has been a part of it.

But I just didn't want to publicly confirm that. But then I mean, it took so long,

everything took so long in my case that by the time it was like, they were going to be charged

with something, that wasn't one of the charges. And I was like, wait a second. That was so destructive

to me. You're telling me that one of the most destructive things that they did to me, they won't

actually get charged with. Of course, you know, my captors, their cases were moved to the

federal courts. And I mean, we could talk about that for a while, but they ended up being

prosecuted in the federal courts instead of the state courts. But it was actually my own case

that made me start to really feel like I needed to speak out and do more. And as I started speaking

out, you know, I've, I've now been to all 50 states and I've done presentations in all 50 states.

And a lot of times when I do presentations, they'll be really close to reservations. And I generally

have security at these events that I do. And so, you know, I want to know, you know, about that

person. So we'll get into conversation. And I will start talking about, you know, how many

cases they work or because it's a lot of time it's, you know, police officers who are providing me

security or FBI officers who are providing me security. And so they'll talk about a lot of the

issues that they face on the reservations. And then I mean, there have also been people who have

just come into my life who have been like, this is really important. And they are not receiving

attention. They are not receiving their cases are not being pursued. I mean, you talk about

the first 48 hours being some of the most important hours when a person disappears. But a lot of

times it takes up to two weeks before their case is even given a file number. And so just, it's kind

of just been all of these experiences put together that have just been made, made me feel like

we need to change this. I mean, this should not be the issue that it is. There should not be this

disparity between white blonde Caucasian blonde women versus Native American or Indigenous

populations or or any race for that matter, whether they're, you know, African American or or

Latino or I think it's it's beautiful like this trajectory you're on and this kind of transformation

that you've made obviously like you didn't necessarily owe your voice to anyone, right? Like if

what you had chose to do was like, I'm going to heal myself. And I think that's all you owed people.

But to lend your voice in this way, I think is really meaningful. And you said something earlier,

like, for a minute, I wanted to just go back. I wanted to pretend it didn't happen. And like,

I realized I could never go back to my life. Have you ever thought about, I'm sure you did. What,

like, what did you think your life that your trajectory was before this happened? Like, who would

you have been now? And you know, you probably lost, you know, you're reducing totally different.

Like, what does that look like for you? Saying like, I had this whole other trajectory and someone

else's decision changed mine. You know, I used to, I played, I grew up playing the harp, I grew up

studying the harp. And I thought I would study harp in school, which I mean, I did. But then it was

always my dream to go to Juilliard and study harp performance at Juilliard. And I always wanted to

perform in Carnegie Hall. And I mean, I just, I wanted to grow up and be a harpist. And

I don't know that I thought much past that point. But I mean, you know, I also envisioned myself

falling in love and getting married and having a family. And I mean, I, you know, I did fall in love.

I have gotten married. I have kids. And I mean, that part's true. But it's certainly also in a very

different, I mean, my life is very different to what I thought it would be. I mean, I kind of thought I

would be, I mean, just like nobody in particular, I'd just be me. Like people wouldn't necessarily know

my name or I wouldn't have any kind of notoriety or popularity or or anything. And, and I was perfectly

100% fine with that. Everything started, right? Because you're like, my case was treated so differently.

And they did so much to find me. But do you ever have any resentment towards law enforcement or the

people who were searching? Because you know, I think about how easy in my mind, it would be to be

better to say, you were close enough that I could hear your voice, but you didn't go a little bit

further. Or my sister told you exactly who it was months before you found me. And you didn't take

her seriously enough. And she's only a little girl. Like what she's supposed to do. It was, it was

law enforcement's job to take her seriously. Did you have a time now then that you had like a

resentment towards them for even as much as they did not doing enough? No, really.

Pineapple on pizza? One topping, seven toppings, pan or hand tossed. Whatever it is,

dominoes has something for everyone. And for our limited time, dominoes best deal ever is back.

It is the perfect deal for all those topping lovers out there. With dominoes best deal ever,

you can get any pizza with any toppings for just $9.99. Plus, it makes dinner easy. After a long

day of work, dinner isn't something you want to have to use your brain for. Deciding on dinner

can get so overcomplicated, especially when navigating those picky eaters in the family.

Dominoes best deal ever makes it simple, because no matter the size or toppings,

combinations you choose, it's all the same great price, $9.99. The whole family will thank you.

Could you imagine what a seven topping pizza might cost someplace else? And I'm going to be

honest, I'm kind of a gremlin when it comes to pizza toppings for myself. My favorite order is

pretty simple. Onions. I love an onion pizza. Judge away. But do not miss out on dominoes best

deal ever. Load up all your favorite toppings on your favorite crust for just $9.99.

Create your best pizza ever at dominoes.com. Prices higher in some locations,

select this online only offer from February 23rd through April 6th. Size availability varies

by crust type. Max seven toppings, six for New York style and pan crust. Stuff crust is extra,

excludes extra large and specialty pizza, minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices

participation, delivery area and charge may vary. We're all about facts. So when Southern New Hampshire

University joined us as our sponsor, it was time to do some research, and we couldn't wait

to share what we discovered. Here's what you need to know. Southern New Hampshire University

offers more than 200 online degree programs, and criminal justice and psychology are some of

their most popular. That means you could turn your interest into an actual career,

or you could take things in a completely different direction with fields like business,

computer science and more. No matter which path you choose, your classes will have no set

meeting times. That's because SNHU designs their programs to fit your schedule, not the other

way around. And as someone who is constantly in a balancing act with my own schedule,

I know that flexibility is huge. Worried about the cost? Here's something else we discovered.

SNHU's tuition rates are some of the lowest in the US, and their student finance team is ready

to answer any questions you have. To learn more, visit snhu.edu slash crime junkie. SNHU.edu slash

crime junkie. I've never, I've never had resentment towards law enforcement. I mean,

even to this day, I have the utmost respect for them. I mean, yes, there are always

troubling cases that we hear about maybe law enforcement making a wrong call or not

being as sensitive as they should. But ultimately, I don't think anyone goes into law enforcement

to make money. Just like no teacher goes into teaching to make money. They do it, I think,

for the most part, because they're genuinely good people. And they want to help society. And so,

for me, I have the utmost respect, and I'm so grateful to them for that. And for the sacrifices

that they do make, especially when you think about, I mean, my case alone, going through what I've

experienced, I am really hesitant to watch other documentaries on victims. I mean, I'm really

hesitant to watch dark movies. I do not watch horror movies. I do not watch scary movies,

even like emotional rollercoaster kind of movies. Like, I don't want to watch them because

I want to be able to go to bed at night and fall asleep being okay. So even if it's like a movie

where the child dies, I mean, every time a child dies in a movie, I'm like a waterfall. And my

husband's like, it's okay, you know, it's just pretend. I'm like, I know what these things

have been in real life. I hate this. And so like at night, when my husband and I turn on the TV

before going to bed or done wine at the end of the day, it's always like comedy or light-hearted

stuff or like, like probably my favorite all-time show is the British faking show. Like, I have watched

that so many times. I'm like, wow, they're so creative. How do they just do that? How do they just

know? Frosting and dumb. Like, I can't do that on my best day. And also because I have so

many people disclose abuse to me that who have never disclosed it to anyone else that at the end

of the day, I don't want, I need to find a balance in my life as much as I can. And so I don't

typically watch whether the documentaries or movies or shows that kind of go into that world

just because I need to be able to sleep at night. And I don't want to live in fear.

So I have so much respect for these people whether they're, you know, police officers or FBI

agents or they're advocates who work at advocacy centers or therapists or, you know, forensic

psychologists or like these nurses who do these rape kits, who keep coming back day after day after

seeing heartbreak and tragedy and just the worst side of humanity. And yet they keep coming back

and there's still these good people trying to make a difference in the world. So for that reason alone,

I mean, I have the greatest respect and admiration for them. And I think that's really like

admirable of you. Because again, someone in your position, I think you had the right to be

better if you want. You had the right to be angry, but to choose not to be, I think is something

really special. You know, and like you said, people aren't getting into law enforcement to make

money. Most of them have the best of intentions. And they know their job, right? They know their role

when, when a kid goes missing or when something happens, someone is assaulted, they know what they're

supposed to do. One of the things that I really struggled with in you learning about your story,

a question that I don't have an answer to still and I don't know if you have any thoughts on it

is more is civilians responsibility. So there was one moment in the autobiography that the A&E

one where this man who was at a party with you starts crying. And he's like, you know, I want to

apologize to her. I should have done more. I should have asked more questions. And where I kind of

got really caught up in my own head was what is the balance? You know, on our show, we always say,

you know, be weird, be rude, stay alive. But what is the balance between like something was off,

right? Like seeing something that's off and pushing, but also not pushing so hard that you're not,

you're not respecting, like, if you had, if you had been kidnapped, you know, you're somebody who

you would have told him, no, I'm not Elizabeth smart. No, like, leave me alone, leave me alone,

leave me alone. Where's the line between like continually pushing and then like disrespecting

someone's actual like, will, I don't know, do you just know when your gut when something is,

is wrong and you report it? I again, I totally spiled out and I don't know if there's an answer.

I mean, like, to that man on the documentary, like, he shouldn't, like, he shouldn't feel bad.

I mean, my captors, they would never have let anyone help me. They wouldn't, they wouldn't,

they would have killed me before that happened. And they would have killed anyone they had to

before that happened. And I mean, I know, like, I remember after I got home, my mom kept telling me,

well, Elizabeth, you know, your story was the biggest story since Charles Lindbergh's baby son

was kidnapped. Your search was the biggest search that's ever been put on since the baby Lindbergh

disappeared. Like, that's a huge period of time. And that was all done for me. So, I mean, do I,

like, blame civilians at all for not doing more? No. I mean, if anything, I have, once again,

undying gratitude and respect for everything that was done. I mean, even to this day,

when I go out to the grocery store, probably every time I go to the grocery store, I have someone

come up to me, even, even in a pandemic, when I have like the mask on my face, people still come

up to me and they're like, you're Elizabeth Smart, aren't you? I'm like, yeah. And they're like,

I just want you to know that the day that you rescued was the happiest day of my life. And I searched

for you while you were gone. And I prayed for you every single night. And I mean,

no, I will always, always be grateful. I mean, so much has been done for me, so much more than

any other victim or survivor has been done for me. So, no, I always will be grateful to that. And

I mean, as far as finding that line and knowing where that line is, I think it's really hard.

And so, like, I'm not a highly confrontational person. And I don't like conflict at all. And I

hate hurting people's feelings. It makes me feel terrible and makes me feel terrible for like months

after, even if it's something stupid. But I mean, for me, that's just, that's just how I am. I guess

I just have a naturally guilty conscience. I don't know. My husband's like that. But I think if you

see something and it just doesn't sit well with you, just call up the police. I mean, that's their

job. And they let them decide where that boundary is. Let them decide how far to push it and not. I

mean, that's what they're trying to do. And so, if you see something, they don't feel like you

have to go and confront them. Maybe try to keep them in your site, call the police, tell them what

you see. And then, and then let them take it over from there. There was one chance where that

that actually did happen for you, right? So, at the library when someone, it didn't really make

news at the time because they checked it out. Not Elizabeth Smart. What, what was that specific

scenario like for you to, to be so close? Again, it's almost like the helicopters and calling

your name so close yet so far. I mean, it was like, once again, a tornado of a tornado of

emotion because like part of me, it did seem like I was so close to being rescued. But by that

point, I mean, I had been told so many times how they had killed me, they'd kill my family. And

up until that point, they had really seemed invincible. I mean, every time they threatened me with

something, they, they always followed through with it. Like, there was no reason in my mind why

they would not follow through with what they had threatened me before. And so it was almost just

like that fear and those threats were felt paralyzing to me. And I remember Wanda Barzi, her hand,

just clamping down on my leg as this homicide detective was questioning my, my captors. And it was

just, it was just like that physical reminder was almost like being kidnapped all over again. And

reminding me what my captors were capable of and what they, what they would do, the lengths that

they would go to to make sure that I wasn't rescued to make sure that I stayed in their control.

And they were very, very, they were very good manipulators. I mean, like, so Wanda Barzi,

she didn't, she didn't say anything because I had been told that I was not allowed to speak out

in public. And so to make it seem like it was part of our religion, Brian Mitchell also told Wanda

Barzi that she could not speak out in public. And of course she supported that because ultimately

he told her what she wanted to hear. And he told her how special she was. So she went along with him.

And so she wouldn't speak out. So it was only him speaking for both of us. And I mean, he,

I think even back to that time period, you know, it was not that long after 9-11 had happened.

And I think everyone, first of all, I think religion has always been a sensitive topic.

And I think especially then it was, it was a very sensitive topic. And that really any form

of extremism was just avoided. And my captor, I think he knew that and he capitalized on that.

So he just kept saying, you know, this is part of my religion. This is my daughter. This is my wife.

No, I cannot unveil her. I cannot show you her face. That would be against our religion. And

the only people that will ever see her face are me, her father, and her future husband. And you

are neither. And that would be violating her if she were to show you her face. And so I mean,

he just kept on hammering that point across until finally the, the police officer. I mean,

he was convinced and he turned around and he walked away. And it was, it was devastating. I mean,

it felt like I was so close. And then to see him just turn around and walk away, I knew that I

wouldn't be let out in public again until my captors took me to Southern California because that's

why we were in the library to begin with. They were talking about new places to go because kidnapped

being one girl, wasn't enough. They were actually going to kidnap seven young girls. And we were

we're all going to become his, his seven young wives. I mean, we could, we could go down that rabbit

hole. But for time's sake, they decided that, you know, we really couldn't stay in Utah through

the winter. We just couldn't survive the winter and the snow and the cold. And so we would need

to go somewhere warm and that had the added bonus of finding someone new to kidnap. And so they'd

gone to the library to look at maps to find somewhere to go. And that's where we were there.

It's where they, I say we, I didn't decide anything where my captors decided to take me to Southern

California. And after that, I mean, he took me back up to the hidden campsite and I was not

why he did not bring me back down to Salt Lake until the day we left. And then once even we went

to San Diego, he took me, they found a new, like it was like a dried riverbed. And he hit me there.

And I was only let out. I mean, maybe once a week, maybe once every other week. And it was always

with there. I mean, I was never let alone. I was never left alone, ever, during my entire nine

months. I mean, there was always one of them with me, if not both of them. You know, we obviously

talked a lot about like the psychological warfare and the reasons you felt like even in a public

place with an FBI agent standing in front of you, the reason that you didn't say anything or felt

you couldn't say anything. I think one of the things that I don't hear talked about a lot,

people relate it so specifically to Elizabeth thought, you know, these people would kill her, her

family, which is 100% true. But I think it's piece of something bigger. And I'm interested if you

agree on women feeling like they can be believed. I mean, so much of your story is about being a

sexual assault survivor. And I think one of the biggest issues is it doesn't matter if the person

sitting next to you, there is this inherent fear, I think in in so many victims that I will come

forward. I will I will tell this truth of how I was broken and no one's going to believe me. And

I think that's still something that that women, even men victims are suffering from constantly.

Oh, that is the number one comment that I get through speaking through meeting with survivors,

through the foundation and the different initiatives that we work on that is the number one

comment that we get is that no one believes me or I'm afraid to tell people because I don't

think anyone will believe me or because they know who did this and they like them, they won't

believe me. I mean, it is so common. I mean, we have a whole campaign built around that it's

our November through December campaign. And it's it's called we believe you and it's encouraging

the public to take this pledge because if you haven't experienced, I hope I hope the majority

of people listening to this podcast. I hope they haven't experienced rape or sexual violence

or kidnapping or domestic abuse. I hope so much they haven't. But if they haven't, they know

someone who has whether they know they know them or not. I mean, whether that person has

disclosed to them or not, they know someone. I mean, that's just how prevalent it is in today's

society. And so our whole campaign is about trying to help educate the public on what it is to

be a survivor. How can we be a better community? How can we support our victims and survivors a

bit more? How can we rise above victim blaming and victim shaming? And, you know, we want everyone

to jump on board and take our pledge where we pledge to believe our survivors. We believe you

where we, you know, will offer them support and where we offer them, you know, love and a safe

place to fall because we all need each other. I mean, there are very few people in this world

that can can survive without human contact. I mean, there are, there are some like I won't say

everyone, but most of us, we need each other. And so yeah. And so we need to, I mean, we absolutely

need to do a better job on how we respond when someone discloses abuse to us, when someone shares

literally diverse moments of their life because how you respond can dictate the future of whether

or not they go out and get the help that they need and pursue justice or whether they bottle it

back up inside them and have it destroy them from the inside out. And that's that's a pretty big

influence. It is. So what are some of the ways as, so again, hoping that the people are hearing

this, this hasn't happened, but knowing that it, even if it hasn't happened to them, it's probably

happened to someone they know. What are the things that you recommend? What can other people do to

support survivors? First of all, if a survivor discloses something to you, just listen to them.

I know it's natural to have curiosity. And when I first got back, I mean, people always used to

ask me questions, well, why didn't you run? Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you, you know,

why didn't you escape? Why didn't you do something? And for years and years and years, I didn't

understand why I would immediately feel so defensive when I hear the words, why didn't you? But

as a little older, I started to realize it's not because I was hearing their question, but because

my brain was hearing it as you should have run. You should have screamed. You should have done more.

Those words, why didn't you seem to imply that I didn't do enough? Whereas in my experience,

I was like, I don't regret a single decision I made because I survived. I'm here. Like,

don't you think it was not a vacation? Don't you think I wanted to be rescued before nine months

was up? I mean, nine months. That's a long time. And so, you know, I, I was extremely defensive

about it for years. And so now, when someone discloses something to you, I'm very specific and saying,

do not ask questions that begin with the words, why didn't you? Because the survivor or victim,

they won't hear why didn't you? They won't hear the question. They'll hear an accusation. They'll

hear you should have. You didn't do enough. This is somehow your fault. You should have been

able to get away. And that's wrong. And that's unfair. And I know that most people mean it from a

place of, just a place of curiosity and ingenious. It's not them trying to be rude or hurtful. But

as a victim, that's actually what it ends up feeling like.

Pineapple on pizza, one topping, seven toppings, pan or hand toss, whatever it is,

Domino's has something for everyone. And for our limited time, Domino's best deal ever is back.

It is the perfect deal for all those topping lovers out there. With Domino's best deal ever,

you can get any pizza with any toppings for just $9.99. Plus, it makes dinner easy.

After a long day of work, dinner isn't something you want to have to use your brain for.

Deciding on dinner can get so overcomplicated, especially when navigating those picky eaters in

the family. Domino's best deal ever makes it simple because no matter the size or toppings,

combinations you choose, it's all the same great price. $9.99. The whole family will thank you.

Could you imagine what a seven topping pizza might cost someplace else?

And I'm going to be honest, I'm kind of a gremlin when it comes to pizza toppings for myself.

My favorite order is pretty simple. Onions. I love an onion pizza. Judge away.

But do not miss out on Domino's best deal ever. Load up all your favorite toppings on your

favorite crust for just $9.99. Create your best pizza ever at Domino's.com.

Prices higher in some locations, select this online only offer from February 23rd through April 6th.

Size availability varies by crust type. Max seven toppings, six for New York style and

pan crust. Stuff crust is extra excludes extra large and specialty pizza minimum purchase

required for delivery. Prices participation, delivery area and charge may vary.

A single decision can change everything. And honestly that's pretty terrifying. But if you've

been thinking about going back to school, I've got some information that just might help you make

the right call. I'm talking about Southern New Hampshire University. With over 200 degree

programs offered online, this is a college that fits your life. Southern New Hampshire's online

programs have no set class time so school fits your schedule. Trust me, I am no stranger to a

busy schedule between spearheading a median company and maintaining my personal life. I am

always looking for that kind of flexibility. And if you're worried about costs, don't be. With some

of the lowest online tuition rates in the US, SNHU was built to fit your budget too. And those

career goals, they've got you covered. No matter your program, you'll earn practical skills that

you can actually put to use. Sometimes the right decision is right in front of you. All you have

to do is trust your gut. Start your degree at snhu.edu slash crime junkie. That's snhu.edu slash crime junkie.

So don't even bother asking questions unless the survivor tells you it's okay to ask questions.

Be their friend. Call them up and be like, hey, how are you feeling today? Like, are you okay?

Let's hang out. I mean, hanging out might be a little bit harder these days. But let's go to the park.

Let's go for a walk. Let's go out to dinner. Just being there for them is going to be the first step.

I mean, telling them, this is not okay. And I believe you. And I'm here for you. And do you want

me to go with you to report this? Do you want me? Would you like me to go with you to therapy sessions?

Just being there as a support. I mean, and you know, ask them, you know, is there something you

would like me to do? A lot of times, you know, victims are able to tell you what's okay and what's

not okay. But sitting back and just looking at them and being like, well, you know, she was a bit

of a partier. So she was asking for it. That's wrong. Nobody ever wakes up and says,

today feels like a good day to be raped. Nobody thinks that nobody wants that.

So let's start just by being a little bit more compassionate and start by believing. I mean,

the cases when a victim discloses and they turn out to be false are so, so small. And their

story is almost always unravel right at the very beginning. I mean, you did not put yourself in

this situation in like the hopes for attention or popularity or fame because it is painful,

it is so painful already, you don't do it. Like the number, the percentage of false reports

are so small, you will always be 100% safer believing them, believing that it's true. I love that you

were able to come to a place where you can say, I don't regret a single thing I did because I'm here

because I can see so many victims spiraling. And if I wouldn't have, even before it happened,

right, I wouldn't have done this if I wouldn't have been here, if I wouldn't have wore that,

if I wouldn't have, you know, and I think that's a place that you can easily get lost in.

But to say, like, if you came out of it alive and you have the chance to be you and rebuild you

and whatever that takes, like, you won. You did everything that you were supposed to do.

And in your story, I mean, there was you, you didn't just like let it happen to you, you know,

as much as they tried to control you, I think one of the coolest part is, is how you got found,

was because of you. You took everything that he taught you about how to be a master manipulator

and kind of reverse that back on him. So can you talk a little bit about how you decided like,

I need to get back to Salt Lake. And here's how I'm going to get him to think it was his idea.

Yeah. And I just want to make one more comment. Sorry, because you said something that

just I think is so important to say in regards to victims not blaming themselves or if I would have

done this or if I would have done that, none of these crimes, none of these things that happen,

like rape, sexual violence, kidnapping, domestic abuse, human trafficking, none of these crimes

are self-inflicted crimes. These are crimes always perpetrated by another person. And it's that

other person, like, you don't choose these things to happen. And it's not, it's not your fault. These

were the choices of another person that hurt you. And I just wish that every victim and

survivor could hear that and understand that. I mean, yes, you can sit and spend a whole lifetime.

I could sit and spend a whole lifetime thinking, well, you know, I went around and checked the

doors and windows with my dad that night, but I guess we missed one window. I should have gone back

and double checked it. My dad should have gone back and double checked it. When they were building

the house, they shouldn't have put that window right there. You know, we could have avoided this

whole situation if they just placed that window somewhere else. Or I mean, you know, if I had just

screamed, why didn't I scream? If I had just, you know, instead of just going with him when he

told me to wake up and come with him that night when he put the knife to my neck, if I had just

screamed, would he have really killed me or would he have turned and run and been in rush to get

out of the house? I mean, like, I could spend the rest of my life thinking that way. That would be

honestly probably pretty easy, but it's done. It's over with. It happened. I'm still alive. I'm

still here. And I'm not doing myself any favors by going back and blaming myself for what happened

because at the end of the day, it was not my decision to be kidnapped. It was not my decision to

be raped, to be chained up to have food and water withheld from me. It was the decisions and choices

of other people. And I just wish that every victim and survivor could understand that. What's

happened to you is not your choice, even if it was a boyfriend that raped you, even if it was

someone that you knew that took you, even if it was someone that you were texting with, that you

met on an app and you're like, yeah, I'd love to go out with you. Like, let's meet up or someone that,

I mean, you send a naked photo to. I mean, it is still not your fault, just because you made

these other decisions. It is not your fault for being raped. It is not, it is not your fault

for being abused, for being hurt. Those decisions, those crimes lie solely on the perpetrator,

on the person that did these things to you. And I just, I wish people could understand that,

because the amount of shame and self-blaming and guilt that survivors have is crippling and

devastating. And I just wish that they could understand it's not their fault. So now that I've

gotten off that soapbox. No, that's the biggest thing that I think that you can reiterate for people

is the shame aspect. And where I get, I get so caught up in it too, is it's so hard for me to

get it through to someone that has had nothing to do with you to your point. I don't care that you

are drunk at a party. That doesn't mean that doesn't give someone the right to take advantage of who

you are. And if they did, that doesn't make you any less. Like, I've been drunk at a party,

like, but just because I didn't get raped, like somehow I have no shame in that. You know what I

mean? Like, and I don't know the best way to be an advocate and a support system for people

who have gone through that, because I just want, I just want to, I hug them and say, like,

this has nothing to do with you. It kind of goes back to what my mom said, right? Like, it's,

it's not, it's not you. It's, it's the rest of the world. And it was, it was someone else's

choice that put this on you and how f***ing dare they have done that. But it has nothing to do with,

with who you are and you as a person and in who you still can be and who you still are,

even though that person feels completely different than the one that was there before this happened to.

No, I think, I think it was wonderful what you hit on. So can you talk to us a little bit, though,

about how you, you do made the decision to like, I've got to get back to Salt Lake. And specifically,

I think there was like some renewed like public interest too. Like, it's weird to me how this

like played hand in hand, right? Like, there was like this article that came out about you. You

are getting yourself back to Salt Lake. And it was like, all of these things like lined up,

but something that you had a big hand in to like, make sure you got back safe.

Yeah. So while we were in California, my captors, they actually did try to kidnap another girl.

Thank goodness they were not successful in it. And so they started to say, well,

California is clearly not the place we need to go to kidnap a girl. We need to go somewhere else.

And they were talking about these big cities like New York and Boston. And I just remember thinking,

oh, my goodness, like, no one is ever going to recognize me there. No one found me in Utah.

No one's found me in California. I mean, if I ever want to be rescued, then I need,

I mean, my best chance of rescue is to get back to Utah. And even if I'm not rescued,

I'm at least physically closer to my home and to my family. And so as they're saying these places,

I just, I just remember thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I going to do? And then I remember thinking,

well, they use religion and God all the time to justify what they do. And nobody needs to tell me

that's wrong. I know that's wrong. But maybe if it can work for them, it can work for me just one

time. And then I'll never do it again. And so I mean, I remember turning around and being like,

you know, I just have this feeling like this feeling won't leave me alone, but it's like we're

supposed to return to Salt Lake. But I know that I am just, you know, I am, I am too wicked. Like,

I'm too sinful. God would never speak to me. God would never like, I am just, I am just too

unworthy. But this feeling won't leave me alone. Do you think you could ask God if we're supposed

to return to Salt Lake? Because I know he'll tell you because, you know, you're his, here's profit.

And he'll tell you. And you know, you, you are his mouthpiece here on earth. I just know he'll tell you.

And honestly, if there was another miracle in all this, it was in that moment because then he

turned around and he's like, oh, yeah, I think you're right. I think we should go back to Salt Lake.

And so that's actually how it was decided, how we would go back to Salt Lake. And we ended up hitchhiking

back, which was also my idea. I mean, they'd always been like, oh, well, you just thought you were

so good before you were kidnapped. You just thought you were so righteous. But you have to

realize you're not better than anyone else out there. So, you know, that's why you, you're going

to drink this alcohol basically till you pass out. And that's why you're going to go naked

all day today. And that's why you're going to have to smoke these cigarettes or this pot. And,

you know, that's, that's why you have to experience all these things is to help you realize that

you're just not better than anyone else. Well, they actually had kept like a record of all of their

travels that they had done before they had kidnapped me. And slowly it, I mean, initially,

they started in a home. Then they built like a house on wheels. They called it their handhouse.

Then they went down to like a hand cart. Then they just, they were instructed to rely upon

the Lord's people and their generosity. And they would pick them up and take them. The Lord

would provide for them and they would take them from place to place through hitchhiking. And

what a trial that was. And so, I mean, I'd like, it's not funny. But honestly, there were

sometimes that I didn't know which was worse, being actually raped or just listening to them talk

all the time. It never ended. And they told me all this stuff. They told me all their experiences.

And I remember, I remember just being like, well, I know I'm not supposed to talk about my family.

I know I'm not supposed to talk about my life, you know, prior to being rescued. But, you know,

my parents, they always picked me up and dropped me off. Like, I never had to rely on public

transportation. I mean, I think that's probably important for me to experience hitchhiking.

Because in my mind, it's like, oh, you know, like, we'll be in close proximity with lots of

different people. Surely someone's going to notice that something's not right here. And one of

our Z, she didn't really like, well, no, Brian Mitchell, he really didn't like that idea initially.

But one of our Z, she didn't like the thought of me ever having an easier life than her on any

level. And so she was like, oh, I think she's right. This is another test of faith. This is

another stepping stone in our spiritual journey. She needs to see what God can do. And actually,

that is how it was decided. We not only would return back to Salt Lake, but we would hitchhike back

as well. Unreal. So when you're recognized, when was the moment when you realized that this was

something different than what had happened in the library before? It was when the one police

officer separated me from my captors. It was when he separated me, when he started asking me

questions by himself. And they weren't with me because, I mean, they had been so close to me,

they'd been standing on either side of me that they were physically touching both shoulders.

And it was when I was separated from them. And they weren't touching me anymore. And this officer,

he finally was like, you know what? There's this girl. She's been missing now for a very long time

or family. They love her more than anything. They want her to come home. They've never stopped

searching for her. Aren't you ready to go home? And that was like, finally, when I was like, oh my gosh,

like, he knows who I am. Like, I'm actually going to be rescued. It's going to be okay.

And so that is when I was finally able to admit who I was. But of course, I was then handcuffed

and put in the back of the car, which made me think, oh my gosh, I did the wrong thing. If they

thought I was innocent, they would not handcuff me. And I was saying to the police station,

which just seemed to confirm that. I was like, I'm going to jail. I'm going to prison. Whereas

I thought, you know, he had said, oh, you know, they want you. Aren't you ready to go home? Like,

he had mentioned home. I thought he was going to take me home. And he didn't. So I was just like,

oh, I've done, I've, you know, I'm wrong. I shouldn't have said anything. I'm going to jail now.

When was the moment where you finally felt like you could like, you could breathe again. And

you realized that it really was over when my dad came to the police station and he came into the room.

And he was hugging me. And honestly, it was more like suffocating me. But it was in that moment.

I still didn't know what the future held. But I knew that it was going to be okay because he was

there. And he was never going to let another person hurt me the way that my two captors had hurt me

the last nine months. Nothing like a daddy's love. Yeah. What was it like for you in 2018 when

Wanda got released? Like, what was that feeling for you? And was there something about her with

Brian Mitchell that made her dangerous? Do you think she's a danger on her own? I was disappointed.

I was very disappointed. It made my husband and I, you know, completely redo all of our security,

completely rethink about where we were living. Just kind of take sort of every aspect of our

lives into account again, you know, into safety review. It was a disappointment. It was a disappointment

to see that she was released. And honestly, it still is because she never stood up for me.

You know, she was right there. You're watching me be raped. And she had been married before.

She had a prior marriage in which she had six children of her own. And they were all older than me.

And yet she was still okay with watching, honestly, this little girl being raped. And so in my

mind, that just makes me feel like she was every bit as guilty as Brian Mitchell. And so for me,

when she was released, I felt like it was, you know, the legal system letting me down. But I will say

that it also gave me a not that I didn't already have compassion for all these victims who

never see any form of justice or where their perpetrators just get like a slap on the wrist or

nothing happens. I already had compassion for them. But I think it also gave me a greater compassion

and a greater understanding for what they go through and to fill how, you know, we call our

our system in America our justice system. But it's not really justice. It's just a legal system.

I mean, someone told me that like I wish I could take credit for that. But I can't. Someone told me,

you know, we have, we have a legal system. We don't have a justice system because can you ever really

replace what's been taken after you've been raped, after you've been kidnapped, after you've

been abused? Can you ever really fix that? Can you ever really receive true, you know,

restitution or compensation or have that piece of that piece of you given back your life,

go back to the way it was before you really can't. And so I feel like it just made me feel even

more passionate about doing everything I'm doing now. Is there advice or anything that you tell

other survivors whose perpetrators either didn't get arrested at all, didn't serve a day in jail

or got out? Is there anything that you tell people on how they can feel safe again? I mean,

because I would imagine it feels violating all over to have to have to worry, to have to even think

like, are they going to come back for me? The fact that you had to like think about where you were

living and your security system to me is just is going through all of it again and in a new way.

So how do you advise those people who come forward to you, who never got that of how do you

feel safe? I mean, first of all, I think it's important to have a support group and, you know,

I think, I mean, like I'm a huge fan of therapy because I like my initial reaction is to say,

trust your gut, you know, do things that make you feel safe. If you don't feel safe, leave or,

you know, make sure you have a way to leave. But I also recognize that that can, you know,

that can end up leading to people being, you know, trapped inside their home for years, because

they don't feel safe leaving their home. So, I mean, I would say, make sure you have your support

group, make sure you have some good help, whether that is in the form of, you know, conventional therapy

or, or, you know, like there's so many different modalities of therapy these days. You know,

we've got EMDR therapy, we've got, you know, Ecoin therapy. There's just so many that if you try

one and you don't like it, try something else or maybe try the same form with a different therapist.

I mean, you know, there is, there are as many different types as there are people. And so you

just have to keep trying until you find what works for you. But I mean, come up with a plan

for yourself that still allows you to live life and enjoy life and be able to be an active participant

in it, but where you also have your boundaries and you know what your safe boundaries are. And when

someone crosses that, you have a plan and you know what to do. I mean, first of all, I will shamelessly

plug the Elizabeth Smart Foundation yet again. One of our other initiatives is, is called smart

defense. And, you know, it's all about helping women be able to defend themselves, but also giving

them the knowledge, not just the physical training, but the knowledge to understand, you know,

what's okay? What's not okay? Where can we come from? What are defend your or stand your ground

laws? You know, when is it okay to fight back or when is it okay to defend yourself? Or, you know,

if you're in a grocery, like if you got your arm full of groceries, what do you do? And making

sure it's an active part of your life, there are some other great resources out in, you know,

on social media. There are great accounts to follow. I mean, and also like, there's like some

accounts that I just that I like. There's one that's called, it's okay to not be okay. And,

I mean, they're all about suicide prevention. And honestly, I look at their posts every day and

I just like, I just appreciate like when they like put something up and it's like, you know,

it is okay to not be okay. It's okay to say no, it's okay to ask for help or, you know, whatever

they post for that day, I appreciate that. You know, I've got another friend who she's a survivor

she was stabbed multiple times. Like she could have blood out and she fought the guy off her. She

started her own movement. It's called the B-A movement. And they're on Instagram as well. And she's

always posting great information. So like, find these different accounts. Find, you know, like check

out your security. There's inexpensive alarm systems. There's, you know, make sure you like,

for instance, on your phone, like, probably one of my favorite apps is find my friends. And,

you know, it gives me peace of mind to know, like, for instance, you know, I live in you.

Tots of pretty snowy place. And sometimes if my husband's not home from work, I'm like, where is he?

He should be home now. Did he get in an accident? Maybe his paranoia once again. But, you know,

I like knowing where he's at. And then also, like, if I'm not home, I like to know that he knows

where I'm at. So if something happened, he, you know, he knows at least where to begin looking for me.

We call it being prepared annoyed because we're crime junkies. We're always going to be paranoid,

but at least we can be a little prepared. I like that. I can get on board 100% with that. I like to

be prepared annoyed. That's perfect. Are there any final thoughts or things we didn't cover specifically

related to your work with other survivors? Because that's really what I want this episode to be

about. So is there anything we didn't touch on that you would like to say and make sure it gets

into that episode? I mean, I feel like we, we have touched on really to some degree all of our

initiatives or at least all of our focuses right now. But I just, I mean, I just want to

really stress again to all these victims and survivors that what has happened to you is,

is not your fault. That was a decision made by someone else to hurt you and you don't bear

responsibility for that. And that you are lovable and you are worthy and you have every much

bit of right as, as everyone else to have joy and have peace and to live your life to the fullest.

You deserve that and that it, you can, you can share what's happened to you. You don't have to

be embarrassed of it. You don't have to be ashamed of it. You can speak out. And it doesn't,

it doesn't necessarily have to be on the same level as everyone else. Maybe it's just telling one

other person, but you don't need to feel like you have to keep that bottled up inside you. You can

share that you can let that out. And there are people out there who will believe you. And there are

so many amazing, you know, different advocacy centers, shelters, law enforcement that are there

for you to help you move forward in any way that you need help. They are there for you.

Don't be afraid to ask for help. We all need each other. We all need to ask for help sometimes.

You're not alone. Thank you, Elizabeth. And I know you talk about this all the time,

but I still, I hate having to make you do it again. So I really appreciate your time that you

are willing to do this. Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you for yeah, allowing me to come on

and talk about my foundation and talk about what we're doing. I'm excited again to come on again.

And yes, thank you. Thank you for everything and for your support and and sharing everything.

And if I go missing files and and and everything, just thank you so much. I really truly mean it.

Thank you.

So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with.

I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Deck. I tell you the stories of cold cases

featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring

long overdue justice because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these

victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to The Deck now wherever you

get your podcasts.