Backseat Driver

0:00the Tritidue personally. Yes, you could say it's a family tradition. So my dad always worked with in racing and has been racing in Star of Racing since 2005. So I attended a first, a little more classic when I was 17 years old back in 2006. Yeah. And yes, I basically always came with him, washed him race and have always loved it. So I kind of started to do cars in maybe when I was about 10 years old and then got into the start race. Yeah. So I mean, it's, you currently race an e-type, Jen, don't you? Yes, directly. Yeah. And 1963 e-type with a 3.8-liter engine. He said, don't mind me asking, is it your car, is it a family car? Or how come you drive that car? It's a family car. So I always say it's my father's car just doing that I'm racing and he allows me to race.

1:02So it's a family car. We actually were all there when he bought it at Goodwood in 2007, an auction. So I get a family car. I mean, it's one of those interesting things. I've always known the Germans to be extremely interesting, extremely keen on British sports cars and such. What? What is it about the cars that we make over here that is so attractive to you guys over there? Very good question, because we do have a few nice cars as well, but I think what I love about the Jag is the attention to detail and just the all the thought process and kind of blood sweat in tears, if you will, that goes into making these beautiful, beautiful cars. And I always love the e-type. I love also sorts of British cars, but the Tetris has this charming effect. First of all, of course, beautiful. And when you look under the car into the engine,

2:05it's just made with such great work of art. What's the e-type when you bought it? Was it already a racing car? Or is it one that your father converted from road specification to racing specification? I know it was already a racing car. So it belonged to another family, a British family who raced it in a Jaguar-only class back in the UK. And yeah, we kind of continue to develop. Yeah. So I mean, they are an interesting car to drive. I mean, the e-type was described by Enzo Ferrari as the most beautiful car in the world. And it was one of, so William Lane's crowning achievements was the e-type. But we are a car that's an interesting car to race and drive. How do you find racing? Well, from the up, it looks quite not small, but kind of gentle, but it's really not. I mean, there are harder cars to drive,

3:05but it does require something else, but also some kind of determination. Because the car really needs to be handled well, and you really need to get to know the car, get to know how it works, because it's a very specific way of driving. And I always admired the drivers actually at Goodwood, who drive on Dunlop tires, and they kind of go in the corner sliding, and that what makes this car so fast. So it takes some time to getting used to. I wouldn't say that physically demanding. I mean, to race, it kind of is, but yeah, it requires a lot of attention, if you will. So yeah, focus, and you really have to kind of form a team with the car. Now, before you got behind the wheel of the Jaguar, you said you'd race the cars. What came between the cars and the e-type Jaguar? Not much really.

4:06So yeah, I did a few track days, and some courses with an excellent coach. His name is Osso Ptefidea, he's a French racing driver. And I drove with him at Le Mans, actually, on the Boquette de Surfit, and I drove a Porsche. So the pace came, yet modern Porsche, just to get used to a track and learn how to navigate around the track. Yeah, that's very quickly helped into the track. Now besides Le Mans, which according to our mutual friend Marie Cateauine Lini, is one of your favorite circuit. Where do you race? Because I mean, you cannot just do one race a year, and you repast some fantastic circuits and some fantastic historic series. And yes, so I'm very lucky to be able to race at the Pitarotou events. So the organizer does Luma Ho Classic.

5:09And yeah, maybe some of the audience knows. They organize a championship. So with, I think this year, it's five events with different classes. So I race in the 60s endurance class, and we have a full season of racing. So what are the circuits you take in besides them? So this year we have Dijon, and then Essoin. So in Portugal and some other French circuit. So it's Nougat-Wool. And then in Italy, we have usually Monza or Imola or Mojello. And of course, we have the big classics like Spar, and we also have Paul Ricard. Right. Now, I mean, anybody who does race knows and anybody who doesn't race also realizes that to race, you don't just arrive on climb in a car. There's all the practice, the qualifying, but there's also the getting yourself ready. I mean, what do you do to make sure that you are ready to race?

6:13Yeah, so first of all, I like to get ready in peace, make sure the boots are well strapped and my suit is on. And I have my helmet ready and everything is in order. I like to be organized. And then right before getting in the car, I have a quick chat with my team. So with my mechanics, who take amazing care of the car and just know it in and out. And we just discuss kind of the strategy, the conditions that we're in because it can quickly change from circuit to circuit. And yeah, I also threw some warm-ups, which I found is quite helpful to just call down a little or if in case I get nervous, but it's usually OK. And then I hop into the car. And as soon as the visor goes down, kind of think about anything else anymore. For me, one thing I want racing drivers do is they have like an exercise regime and everything else. I mean, do you have like a daily routine you go through

7:16to make sure that you're ready to race? Because the one thing I've always said to people is, especially on the longer races, you will be surprised how tired you become because driving a car at speed for a long time is actually a very tiring thing to do. And you've got to have got yourself to where you can actually do this. Yes, absolutely. You have to endure these two hours or one hour even. And your reactions have to stay sharp. You have to stay present. And you know a lot of adrenaline. So you have to be able to, your buddy has to carry your fruit. So I do some strength training and conditioning for about three or four times a week just to keep my body fit. And actually it's the thing that I kind of found quite useful even though a lot of people might think that historic racing maybe doesn't require as much fitness

8:17that has modern racing. But yeah, these cars are still physically demanding. And we often driven the summer. So in Le Mans, we had maybe about 45 degrees in the cars. So yeah, driving in these conditions requires you to be top it and ready. So you stay safe and you have a good drive. Now, what you're saying, your father owns the car. Is your father part of the team when you're racing? Yes. Since we are driving in the 60s endurance categories, that's the two hour race. And we kind of share the drive. So you will do one hour and a one hour stand and I will do another one. And then we also plan on doing a democratic and spastic hours, which also requires to spot drivers. So how do you how do you find have the having your father as your your teammate and the fact that the car belongs to your father? Does he tell any extra pressure when you climb

9:18behind the wheel of God? Well, yeah, of course, I'm I'm extra careful because yeah, it still is, but I found it to be quite nice because we get to share this passion that he always love racing and love cars. And I think it makes him really happy to be able to share that with me. And yeah, I mean, he does like to give me advice and try to coach me and me. Sometimes I'll get a noch and he we kind of learn to yeah, not get any troubles way. Um, just give each other the necessary advice. And yeah, but it works quite well. Because I mean, there's got to be rivalry. I mean, any teammates, you always want to be the one that's quicker than your teammate and vice versa. How do you find that? Did you set out and think I've got to be a little bit quicker than my father around this? I've got to put better lap times in the my father.

10:20Oh, yes, absolutely. As they say, your number one, yeah, rival is your teammate because I think it's a good thing because kind of pushing each other to be better and better. And if he can do certain lap times in the car, so can I be the same car? So yeah, I try and get the same lap times in, but yeah, he often has the saying that the day I'll be consistently faster in all the cars than that thing you'll retire. I'm not sure if I'm a girl, but I think. The local radio, it has to be Ribble FM.

11:29Till you children, that their time is just begun. I have suffered for my anger, there was a campaign won. For the father, please believe me. I am laying down my guns. I'm broken in a locker-marrow, a teammate, who'll give you a way to find me. So I'm riding over the yellow line. So I believe we'll get better. And if you're losing it, you're getting better. It is hard to hold on, it is no one to lean on. Hey, let it go, this is the rain. Lord, we gotta keep the flame. Don't you love your love through the head. Now we gotta keep the flame.

12:31Keep the flame. Keep the flame. Lord, we gotta keep the flame. Tell me where, when I'm with you. Do you keep it all inside? Detail man, oh, forgive me. Just ride behind your back. Yeah. And I'm gonna fight against somebody. And I'm gonna end the fight. We ain't gonna give back. But it's me, cause you're too tough. We're the time of this problem. There's no other dream on. Hey, let it go, this is the rain. Lord, we gotta keep the flame. Don't you love your love through the head. Now we gotta keep the flame.

13:33Don't you love your love through the head. Lord, you gotta keep the flame. Keep the flame. Keep the flame. Oh, we gotta keep the flame. Keep the flame. Keep the flame. Lord, we gotta keep the flame. I've been walking in the footsteps.

14:42A society's lies. I don't like what I see no more. Sometimes I wish I was blind. Sometimes I wait for love. Just stand out of the lane. To know what's easier to cry. I try to watch ways made. All the fun. This thing's up on the canvas. Every night with full daylight. It's hard with the world in your face. Try to hold on. Try to hold on. Hey, let it go, this is the rain. Lord, you gotta keep the flame. Don't you love your love through the head. Now we gotta keep the flame. Try to hold on. Try to hold on. Oh, we gotta keep the flame. Never mind, keep the flame.

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19:51But as always, we like to compete against each other. Now, the one thing that is, and it's the same with rallying, historic racing is becoming increasingly popular. For the simple reason, people can relate to the cars that they see. Over modern cars, I mean, modern racing cars especially the more. I mean, you've got LMP12 and 3 and now you've got the new Hypercar series. These cars of course bear no resemblance whatsoever to any car you see on the road. I mean, over in Europe, how do you find historic racing? Is the popularity increasing? Definitely, and it's very nice to see because I remember back in 2008 or 2008 when my dad started and the classic started there. There were a lot of people, but not many young people. So I especially noticed an increase in interest with younger people, younger drivers, your friends, so it's very nice to see.

20:53And I think, as you said, it's kind of relatable for the public. And it's also sometimes I get people coming out to me who are maybe a little older than me and who are telling me, yes, there was kind of a car that made me dream back in the day that I looked at and was a big fan of. So seeing it drive around the track is just beautiful thing, it's the end. But I do think it's becoming more and more popular and the drivers are becoming better and better. So it's quite interesting to see it develop into real championships, real teams who kind of work on these cars. Now, the big thing at the moment is, especially in England, and down that conclude in mainland Europe, the encouragement of trying to get more women into racing. Now, the one thing I've always said and regularly listened to the show will probably be fed up of hearing me say this.

21:54A racing driver is a racing driver is a racing driver. How do you find the attitude is to women races out in mainland Europe, especially in these stories? And what are your views on these current women only series? Because a lot of women racing drivers that I know say, well, it's all well and golden. They don't mind a woman's show. We say championship within the race. But what are your views on women only racing championships? Are you happy for them? Or do you regard that when you race, you should race on equal terms with men? That's a very good question, actually, especially regarding series like the W series. So when it was first announced, that was a bit wary because I thought, well, now we're separating men and women, which shouldn't be this, that's the beautiful thing I think about our sport that we're able to compete against each other. And yeah, I thought maybe we're going in the wrong direction, but actually as a series progressed,

22:58I kind of changed my mind because the intent of this series is not to keep the women and girls in the series and to make kind of a parallel championship to things like WAC or Formula One and make it only for women. It's kind of a way for these girls to get to know the cars without having immense costs because of the cost of color, which is amazing. And yeah, it kind of gives them a platform to learn and to be seen. And I think it's Jamie Chagwick is a great example, so she won the championship. And then she got the opportunity to drive another series and gain popularity and maybe gain some attention of sponsors. Yes, I think we shouldn't have these championships in parallel to others so that women can drive in there and just separate the genders, but I think as the to learn and to give them a platform and then allow them to progress into series that are mixed again,

24:05that, yeah, for that purpose, I think it's a very good idea. In England, there's various things in place for to encourage women over in Germany, are there series or other organizations or anything like that that are there to encourage women into racing because one of the main problems with multi racing is and it cannot be denied racing car is an expensive pastime. So are there things out there to try and encourage women into racing because not everything in racing is driving a car there's every aspect in the world of motor racing from the mechanics. To show you say members of the team and things like that are there things over in Germany in place to encourage women into the general sport of multi sport. Yes, so I've seen a few kind of events happening on big race weekends, especially in cooperation with dare to be different though as it was evolves organization.

25:09So yeah, just kind of workshops for girls to get involved to change a tire and look at the team, look how it's functioning. So there I've seen a few kind of events like this happening, but I think not enough. I think the yeah, the governing body of motorsport in Germany could maybe do more so they have a pretty good start. So they kind of try and get little girls to attend races, watch the team dynamic, etc. But it's I don't think it's enough. So yeah, I've seen a few things, but there's a word to do. Is there anything you would like to do or anything you will think of doing to get more women into racing to and to promote. I would say one thing you mentioned like the quality of it all because once again a racing driver is a racing driver when I was out there. I can remember that they were lady drivers who you could you could identify them in the public because you could see them.

26:10But when you're actually out on the circuit, the only thing you see in front is a racing car. And when you look in your rearview mirrors, the only thing you see is a racing car. But I mean, what would you do to encourage more women into it or until maybe reduce the cost because we've just said it is an expensive sport. Yes, absolutely. And I think that kind of hinders a lot of girls from entering the sport because of the high cost. And also, as you mentioned before, there's a lot of other areas of expertise beside driving. So in a mechanic and engineer. I think doing these kind of days for girls to come to the track, maybe get some people together who work in motorsport and go into schools or into these things talk about this sport, maybe get them interested. And allow them to have maybe access to a race and show them around so they can kind of have a have a day within the paddock and someone showing them around explaining everything.

27:23And also, I think I can't remember the name of the organiser, but there was a track day for women actually at the Salzburg ring. It was done by a German organiser and they had a driving instructor, a wood woman. And then a driver who was an instructor for Porsche and some other female drivers and they kind of had a track day for women to get to know the circuit and just have a their first experience on a track. So I think these kind of things are nice as well, just for them to kind of enter this world and see what it's all about. Now besides what you're doing, I mean where you are young, you told us when you started looking what you you started watching, etc. So it's not it's not difficult to work out how old you are though. I won't actually say how old you are. It's not the dumb thing to say a whole day. I mean, where do you see your racing going because at some point as you said when you start to consistently beat your father, he will retire.

28:29Do you have ambitions to move on in racing or do you want you just wish to stop within historians? I thought about this a lot actually. So when I was I think 19 I kind of realized how the system worked and how you could progress and in modern racing cars only get already caught on to that a little earlier on. And I thought about yeah going into modern racing cars, maybe single features, but I kind of stick with historians because it was the most the most convenient thing because my dad was already in the sport. So yeah, and actually I think it's great for gaining experience because it's easy way for me to access the motorsport, but I am actually thinking about the opportunities that could present themselves and maybe moving to some more modern cars. I mean, I would love to move to W series just to get the experience. As I said, it's a great kind of starting point to get experience without having huge huge cost, but yeah, I kind of the competition is really tough. So yeah, I think one day I'll look into different areas of motorsport, but for now I'm thinking with historic.

29:53Now the other interesting thing is it was something that's happened with me. I never had any urge to drive anything other than sports cars. Do you want to stay with sports cars or would you like to look at single seaters or how would you see your career going? No, I would definitely look at single seaters if the opportunity presents itself or actually you have to look for the opportunity sometimes in motorsport, but I would like to yeah at least give it a try. Maybe have a kind of some days of schooling on a single seater. I think you can learn a lot as well in it, but yeah, I also get the appeal of all three driving sports cars. It just has a really yeah kind of charming charm to it really.

30:59I'm a little bit out of my mind now I am a new soul. I'll never recover. I'll never be flying. Cause I am. I just might get a little too drunk so I won't think about us. Don't think about what we could have been. I'll stay up like this for later. I won't dream about wake up with no look. I just can't wait. I should have said all of my she wasn't one. I'm out of hand. It has forever. Someone said for her name. When we were going all of a night I guess I'm really late. I should have never let it slip away. So I'm such a loser. I never lose. I'm already out of my soul. I'm a liar. I'm a loser. I'll never recover. I'll never be flying. Cause I am.

32:05I just might been a little too drunk when she needed somebody. But against the body. I do it again. Now I keep lying. My soul says she's just joking. She's joking. She'll probably call me. Will it be us again? I should have seen it all along. She wasn't one. I'm been on the hunt. I'm she's above it. I'm in second place. I know I'm such a loser. I never lose. I'm already out of my soul. I'm a liar. I'm a loser. I'll never recover. I'll never be flying. Cause I am. I'm a loser. I'll never be flying. Cause I'm a loser. I'll never be flying. Cause I'm a loser. I'll never be flying.

33:08Tell me God is real. Do you think about me still? Or am I living for nothing? Don't know where it went. Run but I'll just take the hand. It's gonna take some adjustin. I'm so too loser. I'll never lose. I'm already out of my mind. Now I'm a loser. I'll never recover. I'll never be flying. Cause I am.

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37:47There's a girl I'll be there to see and I'll really get the feeling that she likes me or she's said some but not so many words. I've got to tell you why I've heard. She don't want no wildness but she's with me. She know that once to then she wants to dance with me. Cause I own her so tiny next to me she wants to dance with me. Cause I let her be what she wants to be. Now I know. I've been out of this world and I never meant to hurt my baby. So much of all I love her. And I make sure loves me and that's the way it's got to be. And we're together never fight. We got better things to do tonight. She wants to dance with me. Cause I own her so tiny next to me she wants to dance with me.

38:59Cause I let her be what she wants to be. Now I know. So Darwin, Darwin, Darwin. She wants to dance with me. Cause I own her so tiny next to me she wants to dance with me. Cause I let her be what she wants to be. Thank you so much for the thing with sports cars that sports car drivers tend not to be as universally famous as single seater racing drivers, especially Formula One.

40:05But if you look at it, as you said, there's the allure of sports car racing. I've always been of a great, great belief that sports car racing drivers are the true racing drivers because there's a lot more to it than racing a single seater in my opinion. Yeah, it's kind of true. That's why I love endurance racing actually because instead of just sprint races because first of all it's not only about speed, it's about well endurance. And yeah, there's a lot more going on. A lot more aspects not to take anything away. Of course, from sprint races or single seater because it's incredibly complex and just evolving more and more. But yeah, that's what kind of fascinates me about endurance. It's just that it's kind of multi faceted and yeah. And also one is to say is single seater is great and the cars are very impressive. But what I like about this sports car is the aspect of the car, which is often beautiful to look at as well because single seater they kind of all look alike.

41:13That's what the beautiful. I just kind of think of the 24 hours of limon standing there and seeing an Aston Martin, a Porsche, a Corvette and all of them having their unique kind of train. And I think, yeah, as someone who likes to look at the car and see the beauty and it that kind of feel. And the other thing is if you move into modern sports cars or a modern single seater, you will then have to experience aerodynamics, which racing historic is something that you you won't especially do with an e-type. I mean, we all eat types have racing e-taps have tiny little times tiny little winglets on them and things like that. But have you driven have you been able to drive a car with what you would call a full aerodynamic package on it? And not yet or not really a full full package. So that's still something that I still have to experience. Yeah, that's why I mentioned maybe doing a kind of a course on a single seater just to have get that feeling, which is I believe incredibly different to driving the the jack and the yeah, the closest thing that I will be able to drive through a car of aerodynamics is a GT 40.

42:37So which we found out is incredibly at the time of age. He's incredibly fast. They were the first cars to achieve the truly big 200 mile and hour speeds down Mulsana, although the regret regrettably the Mulsana straight suddenly had two chicanes, but into it to stop people going that fast. Exactly. So that car has incredible cornering speed and you can really see that they really put in the work in terms of aerodynamics and thinking about how can we make this car go as fast as we can on that massive full of mall circuit. So yeah, that's the closest thing that yeah, I'd still like to drive a modern car and just experience thing and it's also fascinating how you can improve the car work with a team who can make little tweaks and adjustments to make it faster. So yeah, that aspect is also very fascinating. Now, Lamar is regarded as the race. It is the in my opinion, it is the ultimate multi race. It is for a lot of people. Would you have ambitions to move from racing at historic Lamar classic Lamar to actually racing in the what you will call the modern big 24 hour race?

43:54Yes, so that question is actually spot on because I told my parents once actually my one big dream in life would be to race at the 24 hours of Lamar. Yeah, it's just I've seen it multiple times. I always loved it kind of that magic of Lamar. Everybody tell me about and yeah, that would actually want to make all because I mean the preparation, etc. I mean, you following illustrious footsteps because I have had Lamar 24 hour Lamar drivers on the show and a great friend of mine who's been a guest more than once is actually one it three times. I mean, I often say to them, after you've won the Lamar 24 hour, the modern one, where do you go from there? If you were able to drive there and maybe hopefully one day win it, where would you see your career going from there? Because in many ways, what else is there left to do?

44:57That's a very good question. I think it's such an event and yeah, such a once in the last time experience that I think you need to kind of separate it from everything else you're doing because this event has such a magnitude and such a meaning and history behind it. Yeah, I think it's hard to kind of top it. So I think it's kind of a the pinnacle of any racing drivers career or does endurance racing to win Lamar and yeah, I think nothing can be eat that but yeah, ever said it's kind of such a unique event that you kind of have to regard it as this thing. Yeah, it's a single now you've mentioned your mother. I mean, what what's your mother's attitude? Not only does she have a husband who races car? She now has a daughter who races cars? What's what's your mother's and the rest of your family's attitude to yourself and your father racing?

46:02Well, luckily she was kind of prepared to do my father anything because she does tend to get a little nervous which I think is completely normal. You kind of a person you love getting a massive machine and drive around it incredible speed. So yeah, but luckily she was already used to it. But no, she she's very happy for me that I get to do this and she she loves that we're doing it as a family. What do your what do your friends and work colleagues make of the fact that when you're not at work, your weekends tend to be spent racing an ETA Jaguar? I miss always really funny when I tell people that I race cars because it's such a niche little hobby. Yes, so no, if you have my friends also love cars, so with the doors break we get to chat with them about it.

47:04And sometimes I get to bring people to the track and yet we have some lovely weekends together. And yeah, I actually I'm currently doing an internship because then I'm a student still. And yeah, my work colleagues always are slightly confused but also very and it feels yes, stick and yeah, they think it's really great. Because that's the one thing and a lot of people when I take them to a to a track, etc. And they they see the ladies get out of the car. The one thing they suddenly realize is after you've been behind the wheel of a racing car for quite a while. The one thing you do not look when you get out is glamorous anymore because it is a hot, a very hot sticky environment to be in. Absolutely. Because it was so hot, I just came out of the car and yeah, I was as as a red as my racing suit. So yeah, no, we don't look glamorous that they they but they only go to show that it's the real sport.

48:12And yeah, when you get that helmet on, it's yeah, it's quite intense. Now one question that's always interesting to ask a racing driver, what do you drive normally? What's your role normal road car? So actually I'm staying kind of true to the British. I had the cross-barkers because I drive a mini Cooper. So yeah, which is also green. And yeah, other than that, we also have some old road cars. So yeah, not only do we drive them on a track, but we also drive them on the road. And I get to take those out on the weekends or when it's sunny outside. Do you ever, are you ever tempted if you're out on the roads normally to, shall we say, put a put a mail driver in his place if he tries to do something to on around the around the roads of our unit because Munich has some fantastic road around.

49:13Very true. I do enjoy going. We have some great, great lakes and just beautiful sides in nature. So in the roads that lead there are really, really fun to kind of drive within the speed limit, of course. So it's fun to experiment a little at, yeah. Whenever people kind of try and calm me, it exists, especially in Germany, I think, because we have on a highway as we could go as fast as we want. So people do like to get into pretend racing driver mode, but usually either I'll be just as fast or I'll let them go and think, well, you don't know that I actually drive. I mean, that's the great, that's the great thing about the Bavarian automones, other parts of German, other parts of Germany have speed limits on them during the course of the day, etc.

50:16But as soon as you get into Bavaria, they, they more or less forget about those and you're as, you're absolutely flat out on the automones at times. Absolutely, I think it's because, yeah, they built such great BMWs that they need one people to get the four experience. Yeah, that would be quite unique and it's fun. You get places there. Now, the one thing is like when I was a, when I was a lad, the such, I had my heroes that were mainly being the late great Jim Clark. Who, who was the racing driver or racing drivers that you look up to the most as the famous drivers? Oh, and so just to name the kind of classics first, I always adored Michael Schumacher. Of course, being half German, I grew up watching Formula One or when he was driving and just, yeah, being absolutely fascinated. And I always, as a kid, I loved Ferrari. I had a Ferrari cap and always thought there was great. I loved going to Monser.

51:20So seeing him win in the Ferrari ones, yeah, quite something. And then in terms of female drivers as well, I always admired Michel Mouton, so the French rally driver, especially since she faced quite a, some criticism and some really tough competition from other drivers. But and she just proved them wrong on the on the rally course. And I think she, she has an amazing. And of course, being German, of course, are half German. There was the regrettably now late great Sabine Schmitz, who a driver I was never fortunate enough to meet. But a lady racing driver who was absolutely unbelievable behind a wheel, especially around the Norge life. Yes, incredible. We actually talked about her during the weekend because we were talking about the nerve ring. It's incredible. I think she could take any car around that track and put in an incredible lap. So yes, that's quite something.

52:27And the nerve ring is I think one of the toughest circuits there is. So yeah, and just her her tenacity and her driving skills are quite admirable. And I think it's great. They named a corner after her. I think it was last week. So yeah, that made me very much get me remembered. I mean, for what for British television UK television, she actually set a record lap for a Ford Transit van. So she was capable of driving anything around that circuit. Exactly. This is quite the kind of proves that you you have understood the circuit. And if you, yeah, it's the driver that makes the difference here. Lisa Schwarz, thank you very much for joining me on the bike seat drive radio show. I hope one day that we actually get to see you driving transit van around the Norge life. And all being well climbing to the top of the podium for Le Mans, the big one, the big 24. But once again, it's been a pleasure chatting to you, Lisa. Thanks very much for joining me on the bike seat drive radio show.

53:30Thank you so much for having me. It was a lovely chat and I love coming on your show. Thank you very much. Listen to us on 106.7 FM via the app for all smartphones streaming from our website and on smart speakers. Play Ribbel FM.

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