Batman Begins (Nolan Club Recast)

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Hello friends and welcome to this week's Geek History lesson.

It's a very special beginning for Geek History lesson,

because well, it's not really a beginning.

It's actually a begin cast, as they would say,

or a recast, as we would say.

Because if you know if you've been listening to podcasts,

we have been doing a little journey through something

I like to call Nolan Club.

Yeah, that's right.

We are so excited about Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey.

Coming soon, this July of this year

that we've been going through his filmography,

we covered Bemento, we've covered Insomnia,

we're gonna save his original film

the following for a little special bonus at the end.

But now it's time to talk about Batman Begins.

And you know, it's one of those nerdy movies

that on the podcast, we've already talked about it.

We did it.

We celebrated the 15th anniversary of The Batman Begins

in 2020 with the very special guest,

comedian host, all around awesome guy, Mark Ellis.

And so this installment of Nolan Club

is all about Batman.

We're gonna watch Christopher Nolan walk his way

into Batman, feel Batman out,

caress those capes and figure out

if that is sort of the impulse that he got

that led him on the road to make a sword

and sorcery epic starring Matt Damon,

who is not in Batman Begins,

but Christian Bale is here.

So, you know, there's a big actor around.

There's a big British actor around.

So it's, we're gonna be just fine everybody.

But enjoy this look into Geekhush Rustin's past

and also the look into Geekhush Rustin's future

with the next installment of Nolan Club featuring Batman Begins.

Take it away, past Jason and Ashley.

Hello, everyone and welcome to Geekhush Rustin live.

I am Jason on front of a blue starry background in men.

I am Ashley Victoria Robinson

and welcome to your mind university

because you have stumbled onto the live version of the podcast

where we take one construct from popular culture

and teach you everything you need to know about it

in about an hour except today

because we're in the middle of summer, movie club.

That's right.

Very special guest, the wonderful,

the amazing lover of course,

member of the Legion of Shadows and all around Nice Guy.

Henry Ducard slash Mark Ellis is back on the show.

Welcome Mark, thanks for joining us.

I almost called you Henry.

Hey, you can call me whatever you want to

but you know that I might go by another name

that goes back to ancient times.

So this is my starting name for today

and not only, I assume when you said special guest

you were talking about that little sleeping muffin

behind me.

Of course.

That's why I off-centered my seating position

so everybody can see the real eye candy

in my apartment anyway.

And that's Molly, the wonder dog.

But yeah, I am, like I was telling you all,

next time make me work a little bit

because this is way too easy to talk about today.

Yeah, this is, we'll just flat out say that today's episode

is all about celebrating the 15th anniversary

of Batman Begins.

We're actually very close to even the premiere date

of Batman Begins.

We'll get in all of that in just a second about

but it's so funny because when we decided to do

this summer movie series, we were like,

oh, what are some of the movies we could do?

And on one of the podcasts, I mentioned

that I had a pretty special connection to this movie

and we threw it out as a hashtag,

hashtag Batman Begins Yes.

And we very quickly got, I think like 75.

Like almost 100 people were like,

you have to do this episode.

So I'm so glad we had such a fun time

with you, Mark, on the gladiator episode.

So I'm glad that we can pull you in

and we can talk about Batman Begins.

So let's go into the first section of our podcast,

the 10 cent origin, Ashley, what is that?

The 10 cent origin is where we tell you all the basics,

who's its and what's its galores?

In case you ever go to a Christopher Nolan themed cocktail party

and somebody says, what's up with that Batman Begins movie?

Yeah.

All right, so the release date in the United States

for Batman Begins was of course June 15th in 2005.

It was directed by Christopher Nolan.

It has a screenplay by Christopher Nolan

and David S. Goyer with a story by David S. Goyer.

That just means that David S. Goyer wrote the story doc.

That's it.

He had a budget of a 150 million

and a box office of 373.4 million,

which is I think is very interesting

because to nowadays, that would be considered a flop.

Batman Be Superman made like $900 million.

So this is like small potatoes compared to modern day,

which is very interesting.

And of course the synopsis of Batman Begins is Batman starts.

Yeah, it's pretty much there in the title.

He is in the title of the movie.

And of course, there will be full spoilers

for this film going forward.

Let's talk about this really quickly.

Mark, I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

This is the only movie of this trilogy

to use Batman in the title.

Batman Begins good title, bad title.

What do you think?

I think it was a necessary title

because you have to take everybody

and pile them into the dolorean or phone booth

or whatever your time travel method of preference is

and go back to that time when we were still

as a society recovering from bat nipples

and bat nipples.

Oh, boy, yeah.

And so this is such a smart title

because it's telling the world, hey,

we're not associated with Batman and Robin.

This is a totally different,

this is Batman beginning again.

And it really gets a sucker like me involved

because I love a superhero origin story.

Like I'm the last guy to get sick of,

oh, it's Spider-Man and Uncle Ben again.

Like I love seeing how a person becomes super.

And so with Batman Begins,

Batman's always been one of my favorite superheroes,

but I do have to admit something at the top of this show.

No.

I feel shame, I feel guilt

and y'all can just ex me out of this

for whatever show if you want to.

I did not see this movie in the theater.

I did not go.

I technically did not either.

Okay, well, if we're gonna get into that.

Well, yeah, we'll get to the full meat cube, sir.

I was trying to bring you up full screen, Mark,

but I completely screwed up.

I did not happen.

You trust me?

The world does not need to see this any bigger

than they already are.

Someone has it on a giant TV right now.

You know that's true.

I'm certain.

I'm certain.

Okay, so let's go into the meat cute section

of our podcast.

Ashley, what is that?

That is the second part of the podcast,

a term we stole from Romantic comedy writing

where we tell you where we first met Batman Begins

and how cute it was.

So Mark, you started your story.

So I want to hear this.

You said, tell me when was the first time you watched this movie?

Tell me why you didn't see this movie in theaters.

What was happening in 2005 with you?

Your excuse is gonna be a lot better than mine

because I imagine your excuse has something

to do with serving our country and mine.

A little bit.

Other laziness because I lived right down the street

at the time this came out from Arquight in Hollywood,

like literally right down on Coenka under the 101.

It was a glorious apartment.

It overlooked the shell station and.

I know exactly that intersection.

Yeah, right, it's right across the street

from that nice little crate place.

And I just never walked down to the theater.

Now this is back before Christian and I had started Shmo's

and I was getting into stand-up.

I was doing stand-up every night now

and a lot of movies in the theater.

And I think that there might have been a little bit

of Batman fatigue still with me

just because it was so hard to get the taste

of really the last two movies out of my mouth.

And I was excited that this movie was happening.

So I can at least say that that I was pumped.

This movie was coming out

because it looked awesome.

And I would read like box office results

and all that stuff to see the movie was doing well for 2005.

And I just never got my shubby buttocks down to Arquight

to see it's the first time that I saw this movie.

Yeah, Netflix sent me a DVD.

And I put it in and I loved it.

And it has been loved ever since to the point

where I can still call it today

my favorite comic book film of all time.

Nice.

That is great.

Ashley, let's hear your story.

Okay, so I didn't see this movie in the theater.

The end, the first Batman movie I saw in the theater,

the first alive action, was the dark night.

Oh, okay.

This movie came out when I was in high school

and I had not seen, I'm very.

I'm terrible.

Kids, I couldn't have seen this for a nickel.

And I had never seen any of the Batman movies

that came out before this either

because I was either not alive or very small.

And I had only heard that they were terrible.

And so I was like, why do I want to go see another Batman movie

if they all suck?

And then I saw the dark night because I loved Heath Ledger.

And I went to a, I think it was called my uncle's basement.

It was a local DVD rental place.

And I bought a used copy of Batman Begins.

So I saw it in 2008, after I'd seen the dark night,

I watched the Batman Begins for the first time.

And we still disappointed that Robin has not been

in a live action Batman movie,

produced by Christopher Nolan.

Jason, I know your meet cute.

It's a very interesting story.

We have some chats from way, way early saying

that they can't wait to hear your story.

Lay it on us.

OK, so this movie for me was the most,

this film for me was the film of 2005.

Now I know a lot of people are like,

Revenge of the Sith was 2005.

And yeah, I was excited for that one.

But this was the movie that I was excited for in 2005

because if we all remember that first teaser trailer

of him coming up the mountain and you were like,

what is this movie?

And it finally seemed like it was going to be

the first movie to take Batman seriously.

Now, if you know some things of my life,

you know that 2005 was the year I spent in Iraq.

I was mobilized as part of the Army

and part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

So one of the downsides of that means,

you don't get to see movies in movie theaters.

Can't imagine why that would happen.

But fate aligned and I had some chances

to see this movie.

Now, right around in June,

because it's a movie count in June 15th, 2005,

in Iraq there were these places called Haji Marts.

Now, I know that's an offensive term.

That's what they were called.

Of course.

Named after the character from Johnny Quest.

Now, these were little bazaars,

little shopping centers literally made out of plywood

on the side of the road and villages right outside

army bases that Iraqis would use to sell things

to American soldiers.

And one of the things they would always have

would be illegal DVDs, okay?

And they would even have DVDs of movies

currently in cinema.

So the first time I ever saw Batman Begins,

it was in a legal camcorder in a movie theater copy

of a showing in France.

It was like it was so Batman Begins was in English

but all the subtitles were French.

And now here's the thing.

And I did not know this until much, much later.

Apparently whoever had recorded the copy

that had made it to my illegal DVD.

Apparently they must have gotten caught

because I didn't know until much later

that I was missing 30 minutes of this movie.

So I watched this DVD.

It was great.

I loved it.

I was like, oh my God, this is finally the Batman movie

that I like straight out of the convicts.

I loved every minute of it.

Now flash forward about three months later

to about September or October of 2005.

Not exactly the certain time,

but I got sent on a mission to do a convoy to Kuwait city.

Now the greatest thing about Kuwait city is that Kuwait city,

not in Iraq, of course, not in a combat zone.

So you can act a little bit more like a normal person.

So the greatest thing is there's a base down in Kuwait city

called Camp Aerofjohn.

It's still there.

Some of my friends are serving there and stuff like that.

And they have a tiny little movie theater.

Now what I say about this,

it has a little home theater thing

that seats about 50 people with a decent sized screen.

And when I was there in September, August,

they were playing Batman Begins.

And I was like, I've got to see this.

Oh man, it's gonna be my opportunity to see this.

So I go there and I'm watching Batman Begins.

And this will tell you the cut I had.

So the scene in the movie where he suits up

as Batman for the first time

and he puts Falcony on the bat signal.

On my illegal DVD version,

you went from Falcony on top of the bat signal.

It cut to Bruce waking up from the fear toxin.

So the whole subplot of scarecrow setting him on fire

and doing the other stuff,

it like, I had no idea that existed.

I was just like for me for like three months,

Batman Begins was only an hour and a half long.

So when it didn't cut right to Bruce waking up,

I remember literally sitting there in my mind

being like, I was like, oh my God,

I get to see this movie again for the very first time.

And I gotta tell you, that may sound like really dumb,

but for where I was and for how hard that year was for me,

like that was like getting to see that movie

for the first time again was like such a ray of light to me.

And ever since then this movie has like held

a very special place in my heart.

And every time the movie continues past Falcony,

I'm always like, oh, this is the good version.

It's also another, it's like a real world example

of why you should not pirate things.

Yeah, you should go to the official release.

I have so many questions.

I'll try to wait for it to just a couple.

So do you still own the DVD that you bought

as like memorabilia?

I think the statute of limitations is up.

Um, I don't, but I believe my parents do.

Very, I think it's still at my parents house, yeah.

Okay, so then follow up question, which is so great for you

because I know what a fan you are,

is that you basically got to see your own version

of the Snyder cut.

Yeah.

Three months later, did you also at that bizarre

happened to find Revenge of the Sith,

a pirated copy of that?

Yes, yes.

Also, I will tell you, I also bought from that bizarre,

by the way, I bought two giant little box sets

of Star Trek Connect generation.

It was all seven seasons of Star Trek Connect generation

on five discs.

That should tell you the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the visual quality of these episodes.

I bought all of the Simpsons on like two discs.

You do have a couple of those.

I, I still have those.

I still have the Iraqi Star Trek TNG.

And, and then, and then I bought all of Smolville.

At that point, it was up to five seasons on like two discs.

Oh, my, I won't send you on a wild goose chase

through your house, but if you get a chance at some point

and you find one of those,

if you just want to send me a pick of it, I'm just,

I'm curious because I've been to the Middle East,

obviously, not the same capacity as you,

but I've been into that area a bunch of times.

And so you, I know exactly the style of like that bizarre

that you're kind of talking about.

And so it's just so fascinating that you could get

something like that.

And as a Batman fan, I mean, I take, I would take advantage

of that too.

It's pirated sure, but it's like, of course,

I get to see Batman, new Batman.

Yes, and that's exactly what it was.

And that's why like I was so happy.

I was so excited for this film.

And I'm so happy that this film lived up

to expectations for me anyways.

So, okay.

So let's get into talking about the movie here.

I want to give you guys a little bit of production info

before we jump into like going through the movie

and order because there is some fascinating stuff

into this.

Basically, Christopher Nolan had directed insomnia in 2003.

And it was because of that that Warner Brothers said,

hey, would you consider doing Batman?

And the only reason he said yes to Batman

is that he was like, the only way I'll do Batman

is if we can completely ground it in reality

or as much as reality.

As a superhero can be, as a superhero can be.

Before this film, before they shot this film,

he invited the whole production crew and the actors

over to his house to watch 1982's Blade Runner

because he said, this is the style of our Batman movie.

And also like I think that explains why Rucker Howard

is cast in this movie as well, the late Rucker Howard.

But that's interesting to me because I don't know about you, Ashley.

I don't feel Blade Runner in this movie.

Do you?

I don't necessarily, maybe an aesthetic sensibility.

And in the idea that Blade Runner,

when you compare Blade Runner to a lot of the other science

fiction and science fantasy that was coming out at the time,

it feels quote unquote gritty and quote unquote real world

compared to back to the future or Star Wars.

And this movie does the same thing for the superhero genre

because Batman begins and Dark Knight really get lumped

in with Superman returns a lot, which obviously happening

around the same time in the same zeitgeist.

And I will say Rucker Howard rocks in this movie.

Rucker Howard does rock in this movie.

A couple of the things, you may or may not have known this,

but Christopher Nolan famously does not use second unit

on any of his films.

So all the action scenes, it's his hand behind the camera.

Most movies, they farm that out to a second unit

and let them completely direct the action scenes.

But Christopher Nolan directs everything in all of his movies.

And this is the only of the three Batman movies

that was a team up on the score.

It was Hans Zimmer and one of my personal favorites,

James Newton Howard.

Hans Zimmer took all the Batman parts.

James Newton Howard took all the Bruce parts.

And I'll be honest with you and Mark,

I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

I think the James Newton Howard parts are better

than the Hans Zimmer parts,

because I think there's a real humanity

and a real heart to the Bruce Wayne themes.

And I feel those parts are missing in the Dark Knight

and the Dark Knight rises.

What do you feel about the scores

of all three of these movies?

It's not only my favorite score of the three movies.

I think it also is probably post 2000s.

My favorite superhero score as well.

Like I give Alan Silvestri a lot of credit

for what he's done with the Avengers.

And you know, it junky XL,

I think it did a very credible job

with Batman be Superman.

But this is just, I think that this is the most memorable.

If that makes sense, like the most replayable,

the most radio friendly, if you will.

And it also, when you talk about the action scenes too,

that's very interesting.

I didn't know that Nolan never used the second unit

on any of the action,

because I also think of the trilogy,

these action scenes are the best of the three.

I just, I never really bought it.

One of my criticisms of the Dark Knight rises

is that the action looked,

it just didn't look as believable to me

as what I saw with Batman Begins.

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I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

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20 billion is an insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere in North,

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Well, so fun fact in my research for this podcast,

I researched because I've noticed that as well.

Like you can tell in the dark night

that Batman fights a little differently.

So apparently for Batman begins,

and this is the only one they did it,

they employed two fighting styles for Batman.

One was they decided they decided to do this style

called flash fighting.

Where's this idea?

Barry Allen comes in and fights for you.

Technically no.

I don't know if that would be very funny.

No, it's the idea that you're moving on your opponent fast

and furious with the idea that you're trying to overwhelm him.

So we can't stay up with you.

Which feels very bad, man.

And the other style is the style of fighting

that was designed in Spain in the 1980s,

which is called KSA fighting.

I might be saying that wrong, but it's like K-E-Y-S-I,

but it's the idea as well of like being very improv-based

with your fighting and being very reactive

to how people are fighting.

Which again, it feels very bad, man.

But for dark night and dark night rises,

I don't know why they didn't use either of those styles

of fighting.

It's interesting to me, because what I saw with Batman 2005

is it was getting to, and every action movie

that was coming out around that time

was kind of utilizing that Paul Greengrass-born identity style.

And I always think about my dad

when I watch action movies, because the born identity

was the movie that he loved and hated at the same time,

because he loved the story, but he just could not get into

all the jump-cuddy action scenes.

And I think that with Batman begins,

it really has a nice marriage of the fast cuts for sure,

but you also get to see enough of the mono and mono fighting style

that makes it feel like you're watching an action movie,

not just a crazy music video.

This opening fight that people who are watching

this podcasting famously visual media

are seeing at the beginning when Bruce is in the prison camp,

I think is so good and so well-correct.

And I wish this, if this had come out like five years earlier

or five years later, we would have actually

been able to see all of the choreography.

Because I do think the choreography is a little wasted

in this movie, because this was the height of shaky cam

fight scenes.

And I like to see people pretend to hit each other.

Let's talk about, let's get into the movie here.

And I want to ask both your opinions.

And Ashley, I would love to go first,

because you're the comic book expert.

I'm sorry, Mark.

Hey, if I walk into a bar and they say we're having

a comic book trivia, and I see Ashley is in the corner.

I'm like, no, I'll get a drink somewhere else.

I don't want any drink.

It's like, hit another saloon, buckaroo.

Let me tell you about the 90s Robin.

So each of these three movies do not begin with any text.

By the way, I know this movie's called Batman Begins.

I did not mean for a pun there.

I did not go for a begins pun.

I'm sorry.

Anyways, all three of these movies begin with no text

and sort of a loose stylistic symbol, not even a logo.

The opening of this movie is bats forming the bat signal.

I can't remember what they do in dark night,

but dark night rises is it's the ice.

The ice breaks into the bat symbol.

What do you guys think about this, Ashley?

What do you think about this opening a movie

with like symbolistically style symbol of Batman symbol?

There's a lot of symbols in that.

I don't know why I said symbol 50 times.

Well, I like bats.

I'm pro bats.

So I like their inclusion here.

Every bat in this movie is CG, which I think is unfortunate.

It can be really cute, but it's nice to know that no animals

were harmed in the making of Batman.

I think it tells you everything you need

to know about this movie totally, because we could have just

come out with the yellow shield and the bat symbol,

or we could have had a text overlay that's Bruce Wayne

is the son of Thomas Wayne who was this magnet and Gotham

city and I think this really sets the stage for what

we're going into.

And it's kind of like a well crafted academic paper.

You know the thesis right up front.

And then they use this motif of the symbol that's not

the symbol repeatedly.

I think with your mileage, your mileage on it may vary.

I think Falcone on the bat symbol looks like a blob in the sky.

I don't think it really recalls a bat as much as they're

hoping.

I do agree with that.

Yes.

And sometimes your mileage varies depending on this story

about like, do you believe that Bruce Wayne is actually

afraid of bats?

But I think for the opening, I think it's very clever.

Yeah, Mark, what do you, how do you feel about this?

Well, it would be really funny if they put Mark

Coney on the bat signal.

And it just looks like a blob and so some shrub like me comes

running up like, hey, I saw my signal.

Oh, god, I'm so out of shape.

I like what that opening does with the bats.

It really is both extremes at the same time,

because it is this huge, a grand was kind of opening

because it's all these bats flying together.

But it also is very reductionist in the sense

that it's not making a lot out of it.

Whereas the Tim Burton 1989 batman, the whole opening

credits is just we're taking a tool in the bat signal.

Yeah, the bat signal with this huge Danny elephant theme.

And this one is like, look, we're taking this into a new generation.

Thanks for sharing what you did, Timmy.

We're moving this into a new era.

And part of that is going back to basics.

This is like a rebuilding batman phase and by brick

and show you how he got to be batman.

Yeah, that's an interesting thing is because also this movie

begins in very much, and I hate to say this,

but this is how I think people nowadays

to talk about this.

It begins in a very man of steel way,

even though man of steel took it from this,

that starting this movie in Asian prison

in some country that we don't know,

Nepal, China, Mongolia, who knows?

Some Asian prison in the mountains somewhere.

Here's Bruce Wayne.

He's in prison, a place we've never seen him before.

Unless you've read Bruce Wayne murderer.

Well, that's true.

Nerd.

Anyways, and then Liam Neeson shows up.

This is like a very weird way to start this movie,

but also I think for 2005, this was part

of the reason why this movie hit,

because I don't think people ever expected them.

I don't think you would ever see a Marvel movie

start this way.

That's so funny, because I think if you look at this

through the lens of being a comic book nerd,

I don't think this is actually that unexpected,

because silver age and bronze age stories,

especially Batman stories,

and then a lot of the new Marvel characters,

like the defenders that were coming up.

There's a bit of exoticism here,

dealing with Asian culture and Asian fighting culture.

Thank you, Bruce Lee.

We love you.

And that's where Batman trained as a ninja.

That's where that comes from.

Wolverine gets that story.

That's where Ironfish, Cheng Chi, I'll come from.

So I think if you're looking at it through,

I don't consider myself a comic book historian,

but if you want to look at it through that lens,

I think it actually makes a lot of sense,

but I think in terms of a filmic point of view,

that's where you're like, wow,

I never thought I was going to see Bruce Wayne

in what's essentially a gulag.

Yeah, basically, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, growing up in that era of the 90s,

like I did, I'm obviously no comic book historian,

but I can also tell you that I would go to the comic shop

every week to see what's new in the box,

and a lot of times when you get those darker tones,

Batman, that, you know, like the Miller kind of Batman,

even Batman in the animated series

could occasionally get dark.

So I think that growing up around the era that I did

or obviously younger than me as Ashley,

is that we were a little more conditioned

through being able to see that this could be the way

that you take a Batman movie.

And I think that maybe in the back of my mind,

that's what turned me off so much

to Batman Forever and Batman and Robin,

is that this didn't feel like the Batman

that I was reading about in the comics at the same time.

Interesting.

So I want to talk about, I flashed him up on the screen here,

if you're watching the live stream.

Mr. Liam Neeson's.

Liam Neeson's.

Now this was, if you don't know, 2005 was the year of the Neeson

because not only did he have a voice cameo

in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith,

but literally a month earlier than this movie,

he also played very much almost the same exact role

in a Ridley Scott movie named Kingdom of Heaven.

Literally a month before this movie was released,

he's playing like a sort of mentor,

except he's not the bad guy in that movie.

I actually think that Henry Ducard is a old school Batman character.

I think it's an amazing poem pulled by David Goyer

to put him in the script.

But I guess we might as well talk about him all the way through.

What do we think about Liam Neeson in this role?

And also, what do we think about them taking

the Liam Neeson good mentor archetype

and turning it evil?

He is the secret antagonist of this movie,

which by the way, when I watched this for the first time

on, as I call it to call it,

the, my Snyder cut of Batman Begins,

I never saw Rosalgool being Liam Neeson coming.

I never predicted it in the million years.

He's also at this time voicing Aslan

in the Narnia movies as well,

for another mentor position.

Just the year before, yeah.

Yeah, what do you think about that, Mark?

Liam Neeson good in the movie is the reveal

of him being Rosalgool a good choice.

It's great.

And you can clearly see whoever was the brand trust

behind the take and franchise watching Batman Begins

and be like, we got to get this guy.

Just got to get a traction left in him.

And what I do love about him is the ninja.

He's such a great device because,

yeah, the twist totally surprised me too,

because we're just used to like,

oh, here's the bad guy, let's stop him.

With Liam Neeson in this,

it's like showing you that Batman's methodology

of fighting crime is going to continue to haunt him

throughout his stellar career.

Is that he saves this guy's life, who trained him?

Thinking he's doing the right thing,

thinking he's doing the just thing.

And yet that really comes back to bite him in the ass

when he finds out.

Oh, he's not Rosalgool.

And so we're gonna feel the same way

when he has to combat Joker or Bana,

whoever else he's gonna go on to fight.

It's like, this is the thing that this guy has

to rectify is that he can't reduce himself

to being the criminals,

but because he holds himself to such a moral code of chivalry,

it might end up harming him at least

making him burn a lot more calories.

I kept making jokes during this movie

when we rewashed this movie last night

that I was like, hey, in the Dark Knight Rises community,

Bane is just off camera.

So like when Liam Neeson would say certain lines,

like he was like, you am I great to student Bruce?

And Bane would be like, I'm right over here.

Hey.

Ross, what about me?

What I think is interesting and effective

about this character is ultimately the writing on him

because in the whole opening, training sequences,

he has all these lines that are such Batman lines.

Stitch things that Batman would say

or feel like comic book accurate, Batman.

But I think the unfortunate thing,

and we talked about this on last week's episode,

is Rosalgool is a Middle Eastern person

who should be portrayed by certainly a person of color

if not a Middle Eastern actor.

And I think it's a freaking bummer

that Ken Watanabe, who's incredible,

is only pretend Rosalgool.

Well, you gotta say this.

I mean, I totally agree with you.

Ken Watanabe, amazing actor.

He would have been a fantastic Rosalgool.

But my hope is, is that Christopher Nolan as well

realized that and then was like,

this is why I'm gonna bring you over to Inception.

This is why I'm gonna give you,

this is why you're gonna be the big boss rich man

in Inception.

Yeah, at least we can forgive our sins of the past

if we give you a media role

that's more fitting to you in the future.

But the actually take on how comic book he feels,

particularly in Mason,

when he's delivering that speech to Bruce at that moment,

when it's like, am I gonna be in the league of shadows

and we're gonna go off on my own

and he's talking about how society is not going to hold him

to any less standard or more standard than criminals,

that you're gonna have to deal with corrupt bureaucrats

at every point.

It's just, you feel defeated hearing him say that

because you know a lot of what he's saying rings true

and it's like, man, this Batman guy

is gonna have to climb a mountain of paperwork

and red tape in order to accomplish his mission in Gotham.

He's gonna have to literally crawl out of a pit

in two movies with a broken back.

Yes, it feels in eight hours.

Can we talk really quick about the league of shadows

versus League of Assassins of this whole movie?

I mean, I know Mark being a huge comic book fan

has a hot take on this one.

I still think I heard League of Shadows

and I was like, oh, that sounds awesome.

That sounds familiar.

Have I heard that somewhere before

and that you've been of my knowledge back to you, the experts?

So when they were making this movie,

they're called the League of Assassins

in the comics, in the Batman cartoon.

In Arrow.

Well, Arrow comes after this, but yes, in Arrow.

Whereas I like to call it Arrow Begins

because it's just this movie stretched over a season.

And I guess word or brothers was like, you can murder people

but you cannot call them the League of Assassins.

Well, because they want to change the name

to League of Shadows instead.

Even for how dark this movie is,

they did want it to have an entire family appeal.

And apparently that was the straw

that broke the camel's back.

That was the point where they were like,

well, we have lot, we have explosions,

we have gangsters that'll just shoot anybody.

But if we call this group the League of Assassins,

that's where parents will go crazy.

I thought it was maybe just like,

it was some sort of thing because like,

X-Men has mutant copyrighted

and so nobody else can say mutant yet to say like,

oh, people with other types of powers.

Like I thought it was just,

but then somebody else had assassin down already,

but that's a much better and accurate explanation.

By the way, perfect timing here

because Adam Grunther came in here with a super chat.

The same, why do you think Chris Renollan

changed the name of League of Assassins

to the League of Shadows?

Well, let me tell you Adam.

I'll change the actual feel of this one.

Let's see, Adam.

Mark, let's just rewind the show.

You'll figure it out.

Luckily for us, this is a really well-documented,

so like that's not a objection.

That's really why this happened.

Yeah, it was more,

it was Warner Brothers executives basically

forcing him to be more family friendly,

which is kind of ridiculous,

but Adam, thank you for that super chat and that question.

All right, so I want to talk about this.

A big part of this movie is flashing back

to pre the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne

and seeing all the Martha shenanigans.

Although Martha does not have a very big part of this movie.

Martha does not speak, nor does she get name at any point.

She does speak.

She says, I think she has one line after the opera

where she goes,

You're right, when they leave.

And Thomas covers for Bruce.

Yeah, she's like, oh, Bruce, was this you?

Are you a little scaredy pants?

And Thomas was like, no, it's me, it's me.

Thomas is right, though, opera's exhausting.

Yeah, opera is exhausting.

But to be honest with you,

I really like the actor that plays Thomas Wayne

in this movie.

I really like seeing young Michael Cain.

And I actually think the actor that plays young Bruce

does a pretty good job.

Mark, it has been stated over and over and over again

that we never, never need to see the murder

of Thomas and Martha Wayne ever on screen, ever again.

Especially after I would say Joker's portrayal,

where Joker was the one movie where I was like,

okay, certainly we won't see it.

The Joker decided to throw it in there.

They're like, hey, Casey, forgot.

Martha and Thomas Wayne get murdered.

Shout out to Linus Roach who plays Thomas Wayne.

He does an excellent job, I think.

But Mark, 2005, I really like these flashbacks.

This was one of the first times I felt Thomas

was a real character and not just an archetype

to be murdered so that Bruce can become Batman.

What'd you feel about these flashbacks?

It gives us so much context into the character of Bruce.

And that's why I'm so thankful

that we get as much as we do with Thomas Wayne

because it shows you that incredible dichotomy

of this mogul, this super billionaire guy

who's trying to make the city better.

And then you see after the murder what his son,

the path that his son goes down

that is just totally seemingly the opposite

where he now he's stealing stuff halfway around the world.

And you also get to know that he's been kind of sweet

on Rachel since they were little kids.

And so there's just so much fleshing out.

You get this Alfred, you get to see

the close relationships that Alfred had

with the entire Wayne family.

And then when Bruce eventually comes back to Gotham City,

you see how important the Wayne name is,

how much weight that carries.

And the fact that now this guy's back,

it changes the whole direction.

It kind of puts it on its axis as far as Gotham City

now having a Wayne back.

And then it's up to Bruce to say,

well now that I'm the Wayne in charge,

what am I gonna do with stuff?

Yes.

And I really do think for the time for this reset,

we did need the origin because there had been so much time.

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I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

that said 20 billion won.

20 billion is an insane number.

Yeah, 20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere in North,

probably closer to 22, 23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better

and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

That's pound 529 from your cell phone.

We are always open or our call centers

always waiting to take your call.

24-7365.

Wow, Dan Morgan.

From Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law

firm, thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

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In fact, one in five people experience

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Well, and actually, if you look at Adam West, Batman 66,

they mention the murder.

They never show it.

Even who would have been a big tonal shift for that show?

Yeah, right.

Well, Chum, let me tell you about when my parents were brutally

murdered in Alleyway, Chum.

See, Batman, please do.

OK.

Martha got a bullet right to the face, Chum.

The blood is right on my face.

And at the time, I thought it was cool.

But the shot in the head, and it just goes a bit.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Grievous head wound.

Murder.

Murder.

Murder flashes across the screen.

Robin, it comes back to Robin.

He's crying.

Per words, Robin, it's like, oh, dear God.

Yeah, well, my parents were eaten by sharks.

And that's why I always carry shark spray with me at all times.

But even the Michael Keaton movies, you just see flashes of it.

You never actually really see it.

And besides Batman forever, it really never truly affects him,

which is really weird, I think, sometimes.

I'll speak up here as a member of Dead Parents Club.

That is something that I think should always

also be addressed in Batman.

I don't know if it always needs to be a full seat.

But yes, I think to leave it out of the storytelling,

I think, is naive.

But I hope that the next time we get a Batman origin,

I hope you're listening, Robert Pattinson,

and go, Martha actually gets to do something.

That would be really nice.

Cool.

All right.

It'd be very welcome.

And with Batman 1989, I mean, you get the sense that his parents

die, but that opening scene is as much about establishing

Jack Napier as the villain as it is Bruce going through this torment.

Because in Batman begins, what's so important

about how much we see of the Wayne family

is that not only were they his parents,

but they were good parents.

Like, you love that.

They were good parents, yeah.

Connection.

And that is going to leave you feeling even more empty

once you lose them as opposed to just, oh, he's rich

and he's mainly raised by Alfred.

Now, we have a great question here

that I think is going to set off a hot take.

I don't know if it's going to be that hot.

Well, it won't be that hot.

But I want to cover this before we get

to my favorite scene in this entire movie.

Adam Grunther has a super chat here.

It says, what are your thoughts on Katie Holmes as Rachel?

And do you wish she came back for the Dark Knight?

Now, it's funny, during this movie,

Ash and I were talking about this.

And this was, I think, the height and the end

of Katie Holmes' basic career.

Because from what I understand,

I could be completely wrong about this.

And I actually did no research into this.

What is in contracture?

I believe the reason why Katie Holmes

did not come back for Dark Knight

is because she married Tom Cruise and Tom Cruise

and the Church of Scientology said, no,

you cannot do that movie.

That was at least the rumor.

Whether or not it's true.

Yes, I'll say this.

I'll start this off.

I like the character of Rachel Dawes.

I think Rachel Dawes is an excellent character

in this movie for us as the audience

to sort of view Bruce through,

to see Bruce before and after the training

with the League of Assassins slash shadows,

depending on what WV executives are feeling that day.

But I will say this, Katie Holmes,

if not for the brilliant writing and dialogue

of David Eskoyer,

whole boy, those Rachel Dawes scenes would be real rough.

Well, the interesting thing about going back

and revisiting this in a post-Aro world is,

she's just, like Laura Lance is just Rachel Dawes.

Oh, yeah.

On the Aro TV show.

They're both lawyers, yeah.

They're literally both de-assistant DAs.

Like I hadn't really thought about that

because Laura was also a character.

I'm not super hot on.

I don't necessarily understand why we need it

an original female character here

because Bruce has had 185,000 girlfriends

over since 1939.

I actually wish we'd had Selena Kyle

in some way, shape or form.

Oh, you could have put Selena Kyle in this role, I think.

It's just a big part of your one,

that story that's obviously heavily influenced.

My projection or conjecture would be that,

and just knowing the type of filmmaker

and writer that Nolan is,

I would guess Nolan wanted his own character

to mold any way he saw fit.

Because I think this is also the reason

why we did not see Richard Grayson as Robin

in The Dark Knight Rises.

I don't want to talk about that.

Well, that could fill three hours.

But anyways, Nolan is one of these filmmakers

that I feel like if you name a character like Harvey Dent

or something like that,

he feels like he has to acknowledge the past history,

the past stories,

whereas Rachel Dawes does not exist anywhere in DC Comics

so we can do whatever he wants to.

Mark, what do you feel about Katie Holmes and Rachel Dawes

in this movie?

Jason Ashley, I don't want to wait for our lives to be over

to talk about how I actually,

be careful Mark,

I don't want to drown you in Dawson's Creek.

I'll just be standing on a canoe crying.

I liked her as Rachel Dawes.

I mean, maybe it's just my primordial ooze mind

that they can't really separate how great the script is

versus her performance of it.

But I believe there is the love interest.

I believe there is somebody who was fighting for justice

in a corrupt system.

And so I have no problem with her.

I also didn't really have a big issue

that they replaced her with Maggie Gyllenhaal

who's a fantastic actress.

So I was good either way

and I don't have any real strong takes on it.

But I am happy that she is not Selena Kyle

and I'll tell you why.

Oh my God.

It's because I feel like Christopher Nolan

just is one of these filmmakers that,

kind of echoing what you said Jason is that

he just doesn't want to be beholden to all of the war

and he doesn't want to throw in Easter eggs just for funsies.

He's not that kind of guy.

And I think that the most that you're going to get from him

is that playing card that we get at the end of the movie.

But obviously that wasn't just a thing for the fans

that was setting up a whole other film.

So unless the character's purpose is to do that,

then he'd just rather not bother with him.

Well, by the way, I want to point out

one of my favorite comments of this entire livestream.

Layton Wagner got a super sticker

and then also said, love you guys with a smiley face.

Oh, which is very nice.

Love you too, buddy.

Oh, thank you so much.

All right, now the time has come for you to lip sync

for your life.

Yes, I know.

I can joke for the four RuPaul's Drag Race fans.

Oh, I thought we were going for a Dungeons Creek joke

and I was going to say stop it, Pacey.

Yes, my Canadian, my fellow Canadian.

You need to watch it, Joshua Jackson.

So Mark, you mentioned earlier that I believe

that you said, oh, Layton Wagner also said,

just real quick, love your guys shirts.

I assume she's talking about Mark.

I mean, this is the deepest.

This is from my workout earlier today.

I have a shirt of Batman and Superman running together

like they're the Mario brothers in their costumes.

But that is currently in the wash.

We actually debated, Jason said,

I don't think Mark's going to wear a Batman shirt.

I said, Mark probably has a Batman shirt.

Well, you have Molly, the super dog behind you,

which makes up for everything.

I want to talk about my favorite scene in this movie.

And I'm going to preposition this with,

this is my favorite scene in any comic book movie.

100%.

This is the scene that I like to call,

the training is nothing.

The will is everything.

The moment where Razal Ghul, Henry DeCard says,

your parents death was not your fault,

it was your father's.

And then Bruce goes,

ape shit crazy here,

which is very interesting.

And I love that they actually is filmed

on a real glacier in Iceland

that actually and I have considered visiting.

What do you think about DeCard's training?

Is, I would love to hear your thoughts,

specifically on this scene,

because I think this scene is so powerful.

I think it's the best piece of music from this movie.

Is Razal Ghul right?

Is his philosophy that it is the will of the person,

the training means nothing,

because there is a lot of philosophy

throughout this movie.

And I think it's part of the reason why I like this.

Asha, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Is Razal Ghul right?

Is this a good attitude to have?

No, that's so, that's so goddamn rude

to say about his poor dead parents.

That's so harsh.

It makes for a great scene.

Yes.

This is an amazing scene and this will lead you

to understand why Batman acts like a complete insane person

when he gets back to Gotham.

Well, that man is called the super dick sometimes, or a bad dick.

Well, yeah, super dick Batman actually in comics

is like right around this time as well.

Pretty close.

I disagree with the training is nothing,

the will is everything.

I do think that your will can carry you a long way.

But if you've ever tried to hit someone

who was actual martial arts training,

they're gonna hit you first.

But the will is everything.

Doesn't matter.

If you can't throw a punch, you can't throw a punch.

Oh dang it.

There go my plans for tonight.

I think I'm also hoping that you're

going to bring up your thoughts about the scallops.

But what I like best about the scene,

honestly, is we get to see that you get to see it.

I gotta find that clip.

The fight is so good.

So I'll preface it.

Please, man, bachelor.

Jason, I watched this last night

and the part where Dude Card catches it

with the little ninja scallops

because this is what I finally realized

what those things were for.

Okay, yes, so this is the best screenshot I could get of it.

So Batman, since I think the 1960s redesign,

because originally, a Batman showed up,

he had purple gloves.

They were amazing.

Batman had these little scallops on his gloves.

And for the longest times,

I thought they were just decorational.

So when I saw this movie on my Snyder Cut DVD in 2005

with the shaky cam and people speaking French,

and he caught the sword and stopped it.

I immediately, it was like somebody had shown me

the Rosetta Stone.

And finally, I understood English

because I had no idea that those were functional

until this movie.

Well, because sometimes the only way

that I've ever seen them use in a Batman comic,

it's usually to catch yourself

as you're about to follow up a rooftop,

which is not how scallops should be used.

And that's one of the coolest things about this fight scene

is other than when Lucius comes in,

you get to see a lot of the origin

of Batman's design as well.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would say that if you are into parkour scallops,

they're not going to save you.

But Jason didn't know what those were used for.

You know who else didn't know?

Bruce Wayne.

And that's one of the reasons why I love this scene

is because you can literally see through Bruce's anger

that he's also kind of filing stuff for,

oh, if I'm going to become an idea,

if I'm going to become more than a man,

if I'm going to become this mission statement,

then I'm going to need to take care of my body.

I'm going to need protection.

I'm going to need a lot of shields.

I'm going to need all this cool stuff.

So in the back of his mind, that's what he's thinking.

He knows he's got the wallet for it.

And now he just has to survive this training,

which, due card in this,

I feel like it's the toughest coach

that you could possibly have in sports.

He is Vinsel and Barneying.

He's a more topical reference for basketball,

would be Tom Tibido, where it's just tough love all day,

just running gassers every time in practice,

and he's making someone a champion.

Mark, let me ask you this question.

You know, as an internet movie pundit, and we are as well,

you know, you're part of the movie trivia,

Shmo down, Shmo's no, movie or video show,

comments I hear a lot on Twitter,

especially over the last five years,

are people are like, man,

keep your philosophies and your politics out of movies.

I just want to watch movies of people, budgie.

This movie is so layered with metaphors and philosophies.

There's a big of like, don't be afraid.

The will is everything, the training.

This movie is all about crashing philosophies,

basically coming against each other harder

than actual villains fight each other.

What do you feel about that in this movie?

Do those work, are there too many?

How do you feel about this?

I think it works because it doesn't hit you over the head

with the fact that we are getting political,

we're getting philosophical,

but it works because both sides make sense.

You can actually see how both sides came to their reasoning.

When Ducard is talking,

or when who we think is Rosalgo was talking,

and they're talking about how, oh no,

we've been around for a while,

history is on their side.

It brings up Constantinople, Rome.

That wasn't yesterday, that was a long time ago,

and so clearly this strategy works.

Now, whether it would have worked if they applied it

to Gotham, like what they wanted to do,

that remains to be seen, Bruce stood in the way of that.

But I love that we have this thing as an audience

where they're making a lot of sense,

but this guy's Batman, so I'm gonna kind of root for him,

but it's just not a clear cut.

And so it makes us think more.

And yes, I love that people still get upset

at political references,

even though their favorite MCU movie

is called Captain America Civil War.

Yes.

Yes, that's a very out point, I love it.

I also think it speaks to the level of intelligence

and respect that went into writing the script,

because if you are a, and I'm gonna say,

well, educated, and I don't necessarily mean

that you have to go get a degree,

but if you're well read and you're interested in the world,

then you'll come across all these weird things,

like, oh, that's what the scalups are actually for,

so we can put these in here.

Oh, this is maybe a Confucius quote or something

from a Zen philosophy, we can put that in there.

And all of that compounds to explain why Batman is smarter,

better, faster, stronger than everyone.

And I love this quote from the Dark Knight

wearing hockey pads.

Yes.

All right, so I wanna talk about,

as I search for a screen grab of them

and cannot find it.

Okay.

I wanna talk about Jonathan Crane, the scarecrow,

the sort of B villain of this movie.

First live action appearance in this movie

is played by Sillian Murphy,

who was a runner up for the role of Bruce Wayne.

Ashley, I know you are steeped in scarecrow and Batman lore.

What do you feel about his portrayal?

Is he exultant in this movie?

And do you like that he is sort of like

the minor villain through the next two?

I do wanna say that we have,

do we have a geekist role, so that's scarecrow?

Uh, ask Google of, I will find out.

I thought we did, I can't remember.

I don't think we know that I've spoken

those words are gonna prove to not be true.

Well, everyone, if you wanna request to go to that

G.H.O. podcast or email us at geekhistorylessonheadgmail.com.

I think not starting with the Joker was so smart.

Yes.

I'm also of the opinion that he could go back in the...

We do not, by the way.

Okay.

I think that he could go back in the toy box

for a little while because a character like this,

and then they do it in the second movie with Harvey Dent,

also kind of as your B villain, your B plot villain,

are so interesting and there is such fertile ground

I think Cylian Murphy is a wonderful actor.

I think he doesn't get enough credit

and doesn't get the roles that he deserves.

He's like the sequel king.

So it's kind of amazing that he's in the first one

of this trilogy.

He's so good, he's so creepy,

and he really, it's an intelligent choice

because it kind of goes along with the philosophical river

that this movie is.

And man, his dialect work is out of control here.

He is so freaking good and the mask is so good

because even without all the bugs,

it's a creepy looking mask.

So fun fact here.

I learned, Christopher Nolan did not want to use

the scarecrow mask in this movie

and David S. Goyer had to convince him.

He was like, you have to do it.

The comic book fans are gonna want the mask.

And Christopher Nolan was like,

oh, I don't know, maybe.

And then he did it.

I don't know why he sounds like Paul McCartney just go with it.

But I'm gonna, that is now canon.

Christopher Nolan sounds like Paul McCartney.

I hope I can't wait for him to show up on the crisis of this.

Mark, what do you think about scarecrow, my friend?

I hate to correct you, Jason.

That was more of a George Harrison kind of...

Oh, isn't a George Harrison?

Mark me.

Oh, my God.

When I was...

Oh, yeah.

I don't like my taxes.

Actually, that's a little wringo yet.

So I can actually, in talking about scarecrow,

I can give you all just a free standup lesson

for all the kids watching is that like,

when you're constructing a joke,

ideally you have a premise that is believable,

it's grounded in reality.

And then the joke is this far fetched kind of reality.

And you need something to bridge those two

to get the audience to come along with you

on this idea that's gonna get sillier and sillier.

Now with scarecrow, that's the bridge villain

where you feel like it's grounded in reality.

The guy's doctor has got a degree.

And then he also has this math

that makes people do cookie things.

And so we're starting to see in this world

that while it does feel more grounded in reality,

there is going to be a link to these villains

to get a little nuttier and a little more comic bookie.

But we needed somebody to bridge that gap.

And it was very wise on Nolan's part

to not open with the character that everybody

and their mom and their grandma knows who it is.

Scarecrow, be villain is one way to put it.

I would say a deeper cut villain.

And I think that it worked really good

because we're also in this movie, that's the title of it.

We're not trying to overshadow the big guy.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, he needs to begin in.

He needs to begin in.

Yes, I, yeah, you're right.

He actually is very critical to this movie.

And that's something I think this movie does very well

that was sort of the folly of the previous Batman series

where that, like Batman Forever, for instance,

two-faced starts out as the A villain,

riddler is the B villain.

But by the end of the movie, they flip.

And I always remember from that movie, I was like,

no, two-faced should be the main villain here.

The riddler should not be the main villain.

So I like that scarecrow at no point in this movie

is really treated as the B villain.

He is just as competent.

He matters that much to the plot.

And I mean, we just mean like the B plot.

Oh, sure.

I mean, he burns Batman and throws him off a roof,

depending on what version of this movie you want.

When we watched that, I was like,

you do imagine if you were just a citizen of Gotham,

it's like Batman's been around for five days,

you've never heard of him.

And you just see a guy at a bat suit on fire

in the street, like that's wild.

No, imagine, because there's in the shot where he gets burned.

And he goes on the roof and he pulls out his phone,

he calls Alfred.

You can see people's windows, lights.

Imagine that outside your window,

you're just hearing this guy at a bat suit.

He's like, all right, all right, I didn't know.

The voice, the voice is, he's not full.

He's not full, where's Dr. Egar in this movie?

No.

No, actually, yeah, in this movie,

his Batman voice is basically it's Christian Bale,

just more gravely.

It's the dark night where he becomes the parody.

Yeah, of himself.

All right, so I want to talk about,

let's talk about another,

this movie is full of amazing casting here.

Let's talk about Lucius Fox.

Now, I love Lucius Fox in this movie,

mainly because he's Morgan Freeman.

But also, I like and hate the idea that he's basically

Q from the James Bond franchise.

He's like, hey, Batman, here's your gadgets,

because typically in the comic books,

a lot of it is Batman events these things himself

through trial and error and things like that.

But I understand for a movie,

we've got to simplify stuff, we've got to move stuff along.

Actually, what do you feel about that Lucius Fox?

Morgan Freeman is basically like, hey,

here's your buffet of bat toys.

Well, Lucius was a character I never ever thought

I was going to see in a movie, so that's really cool.

You know who created this,

fans of our podcast will love this.

Do you know who created Lucius Fox?

Danny O'Neill.

No, the great Len Ween,

the guy who created Wolverine,

Nightcrawler, Swamp.

Then everyone we love.

Basically every character,

every character in comic books you love,

Len Ween made them.

Yeah, especially on the Marvel side.

Yes.

Morgan Freeman is inspired, inspired casting,

because for the time who would it have been Morgan Freeman

or Denzel, maybe?

Maybe Dennis Hayesburg,

to be able to pull him away from 24.

That's true for the time.

I think he's amazing.

I love that they just draw him as Morgan Freeman.

Now, I don't mind him functioning as Q

because it's such an easy way to explain.

This is how Batman gets all of his toys.

And I love the line where he goes, Mr. Wayne,

if you don't tell me what you're doing with us,

I don't have to lie about it,

but don't take me for an idiot.

Like that is so perfect.

And in a lot of ways,

when Lucius comes on the team

and then we get the scene later,

where they've somehow got him into the car

as one of the commenters pointed out

and he wakes up after being gas.

It's kind of like Bruce Wayne has two daddies

and I'm into that.

By the way, before we get too far down,

the rabbit hole?

The rabbit hole of Lucius Fox.

I do want to point out,

yeah, Denny O'Neill, the great Batman creator

that did just recently pass away

at the time of this recording

and a couple of days yesterday, I believe.

He is known.

We should give him mad shutouts

because Denny O'Neill is the co-creator of Razaal Ghoul.

And Taliya.

And Taliya, yeah, the villain of this movie.

So we should give a nice tip of the hat

that we lost this.

One of the greatest Batman writers of all time.

So the mark, your thoughts on Morgan Freeman

as Lucius Fox in this movie?

Absolutely love it.

And I love the way that you can explain a way

why this character is in the movie in the first place

is because again, we see that Wayne family bond

where it's an old friend of Thomas Wayne's

and so he's just down there in the basement

tinkering away with his multi-billion dollar company.

Nobody's really paying attention to this genius

who helped build the white rail system and got them

and it just gives him all the time in the world

to dream up this stuff so that Bruce Wayne

doesn't have to.

Bruce Wayne is busy figuring out what sort of things

he can pick out of every culture across the world

to incorporate into his new persona.

So he doesn't really have time to tinker with

which fabric is gonna repel the most bullets

or which tumbler is gonna look best for his bat mobile.

It just, it makes it so much simpler in a way

that is believable and is consistent with the rest of the movie

that he is involved in Wayne Enterprises.

I do love the scene where they're driving together

in the tumbler for the first time

and Jason told me this when we were watching it

that they would not let Christian Bell drive the tumbler.

Yeah, apparently like Christian Bale during the filming

this movie wanted to drive the tumbler.

What it is.

And they only had two of them

and they were like, absolutely not.

We cannot afford anything.

But here is a fun story.

The giant chase sequence that happens with the tumbler

later in this movie when Batman is smashing cars

and the cops are like, it's a tank.

Apparently one of the tumblers was crashed into

by a drunk driver.

So a drunk driver.

I'm so sorry.

So the tumbler was parked and the guy just like,

apparently hit it at like 10 miles per hour

like coming around a corner.

And apparently when he got out of the car

he was like, what is that a tank?

And they kind of were like, oh, we wrote a good script.

Wow.

That's not good.

Okay.

I gotta check where I was that night.

Was I ain't got them city that night?

Were you there, Mark?

Chicago.

So this is actually, it's almost like you can see my notes.

Almost.

You're your greatest segways.

Either way, I want to talk about this, the tumbler.

It is very divisive online.

So I want to get everybody's opinions

about the tumbler on this podcast.

Mark, do you like the design of the tumbler?

And then also I would love to hear,

what is your favorite Batmobile?

Do you have a favorite Batmobile?

And it doesn't even have to be live action.

It could be from the comics or the cartoons or whatever.

But tumbler, yay or nay.

The tumbler I'm yay for in Nolan's trilogy.

Because it seems to be the kind of vehicle

that makes the most sense.

It's very utilitarian.

It's not the prettiest Batmobile.

It's probably the ugliest Batmobile we've ever seen.

But if you are actually trying to stop crime in your city

and you want as much protection and firepower as possible,

that's probably what your design is going to look like.

And that's what we all fell in love with with Batman

Begins is it's like everybody saw that movie

and walked out of the theater thinking,

you know what, if I had a billion dollars,

I could do that too.

And you could also have a tumbler.

I just don't know how practical the very phallic

but very cool 1989 Batmobile is.

It was great.

And I think my favorite Batmobile is I'm going all the way

back to the 60s, man.

I'm a classic car guy.

And it's just such a cool car.

And come on, if you have a red car phone, you sold me.

I believe also that's a Lincoln.

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I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

Say hi, Dan.

Hey, how's it going today?

It's going good, man.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

I'm Dan Morgan.

I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan,

which is America's largest injury law firm.

That's pretty awesome.

I think I saw Billboard years recently

it said $20 billion, $20 billion is insane number.

Yeah, $20 billion recovered.

It's actually, I think, somewhere in North, probably

closer to $22, $23 after this year.

And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows.

So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger

and bigger as time goes on.

Awesome.

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law.

It's pound 529 from your cell phone.

We are always open or call centers always waiting

to take your call 24, 7365.

Wow.

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan and America's largest injury

law firm.

Thanks for coming by the show.

Thanks for having me.

Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Wasn't it like a leaking Chrysler or something like a Chrysler?

Yeah, and it's on display in LA.

Yeah, we're in Southern California.

There's a shop.

It's currently boarded up, but hopefully they're still in business.

I think it's called Baris Custom Auto.

And it's on Riverside and Lancashem right in North Hollywood.

And they have that classic Batmobile,

or at least the model of that exact one that is in the store.

So you can actually go look at it.

And one time I was driving by, and the poor thing was being towed

because they had to do some work on it.

And I took a picture of it.

And I said, this is the current state of the DCEU.

Because he was like, you know, at the bottom before,

we didn't know what we were doing.

And nothing was really getting critical acclaim.

So that was an old joke, but I had to bring it up.

If you actually also, if you are in Southern California,

I don't know if it's open or not, but the Peterson Automotive Museum

also has a replica of the Batman 66 Batmobile.

And there they also have the Batman 89 Batmobile.

Nice, yeah, Comic-Con.

I think a couple years in a row,

they would have all of the Batmobile.

Yes, so you can just go look at a cross from Hall H.

And like, that's where that's a tractor being for me, man.

Just staring at that stuff.

And you know, they look at me like the crew, it's a Christian bail.

Like, kid, there's no way you're getting into one of these.

They also have them at the, on the Warner Brothers Studio tour.

There's a room that's just the Batmobile.

All right, Ashley, Tumblr, yay, or nay.

You know, it's a little tough in these modern times

where we are in re-ended discussions

about demilitarizing the police force.

But I think this, I think this is an ugly, ugly vehicle.

But, however, in terms of form and function,

like Mark says, if you're going to be Batman,

I'm just going to let you stare at a little bit more on the live stream.

And maybe that'll convince you.

But my favorite thing about this is actually from the Dark Knight

where the little motorcycle pops out of it.

I think that's cool AF.

I am totally here, but yeah, I really like that with the fat tires.

But my favorite Batmobile is the animated series Batmobile.

So I like a slick, impractical Batmobile myself.

All right, break my heart.

Tell me how much you like it.

I love the Tumblr.

I love the Tumblr.

And I've said this in many places.

The Tumblr is my favorite Batmobile.

Because it is the only version of the Batmobile.

Because Mark, you hit on it perfectly.

The Batman 89 Batmobile,

while probably the most stylistic.

And I would say objectively, probably the most beautiful.

Because it looks like a piece of art deco

that is on wheels and moving,

would never be able to smash into the Joker's Joker Mobile

and push it to the side of the road.

But this tank, oh my God.

And one of the things I love about it

is just look at how much like a Hummer it looks like.

It literally looks like a Hummer.

It has these giant wheels.

It would be impossible to flip this car over.

It to me is like, it really leans into that Christopher Nolan,

what he was going for, the idea that he was like,

I'm grounding this in reality,

what would the Batmobile actually be?

Like if the Batmobile is going to go up the side of a building,

what would that vehicle actually look like?

And to be honest, I think it would look exactly like this car.

Like my God, it's ugly.

I mean, yeah, I know.

I know, but, you know, so is Batman.

No.

No.

I mean, I don't know how you feel about Christian Ball,

but you might think that.

I think Christian Ball is a pretty good look at dude.

I mean, you know, he's pretty good.

Yeah.

He's no Val Kilmer.

Yes.

OK.

Val had that chin, man.

Val Kilmer in Mark Twain Makeup or out of Mark Twain Makeup.

Always in, always.

Of course, of course, that is in Mark Twain Makeup

and then the batsuit over the Mark Twain.

I want Mark Twain Batman.

Yes, set out at 10.

I'll be there opening night.

That's when I'm going back to movie theaters for.

We have an actual super chat here from Samir G,

who says, I enjoy Batman begins way more than the Dark Knight

and the Dark Knight rises, no disrespect to them.

It's comfort watching for me.

It's such a good franchise starter as well, like Raiders

or a new hope.

Mark, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, too.

And without like, you know, smizing your whole point

about this movie, I feel the same way about this movie.

That this movie is just every time I've put it on,

I've never gotten bored with it.

I always just like, oh, man, that's so good.

That's so good.

Do you feel the same way?

Soul food, man.

It's comfort food, but it's not comfort fast food.

You know, you run to McDonald's and you eat it.

It feels good in the moment.

And then you really regret the decision.

But this, it's quality food and it just reminds you

of everything that you love about the movies.

And it's not over the top in flashy in the way that people

think about when they think about a big blockbuster,

a big comic book franchise.

So the way that it's able to subvert

what our expectations are and yet keep us coming back

to this particular movie to start this franchise,

I just think it's a magnificent achievement.

And I don't think that we get certainly a DCU or an MCU

without this movie coming from Christopher Nolan

at the time when it did.

This movie, I don't think it's an understatement

or an overstatement to say that Christopher Nolan

helps save what the modern comic book film looks like.

You know, I think Mark, you are exactly correct

because Iron Man 1 is 2008.

And Iron Man 1 comes up the exact same year

as the sequel to this movie, The Dark Knight,

which also many people consider to be a game changer.

And it is, and this movie is a game changer as well.

It's funny because, and we might get in this a little bit later,

but I feel when you talk about Batman Begins,

there is, when you talk about comic movies,

there is a pre-Batman Begins

and there is a post-Batman Begins.

And it's so funny because when it's funny,

we've seen studios do this a couple of times,

actually within the last five years.

I believe like Venom is a version of this

and the amazing Spider-Man, the amazing Spider-Man 2,

or versions of this, when they release those movies,

I can remember a common criticism,

and one of my criticisms of those movies

were like, oh, has this director, a writer,

not see Batman Begins, do they not realize

that we have changed how we tell superhero movies now?

Like they're acting like that movie doesn't exist.

And I think that there is very much a dividing line

with this movie.

All right, we cannot leave this movie

to that talking about two supporting characters,

and then we kind of like talk about the wrap up

of this movie, Michael Cain's Alfred.

Yes.

I don't even need to set this up.

Just beauty-licious.

That's what I'm gonna say.

This is the reason that I know who Michael Cain is.

Oh, really?

I didn't know Michael Cain was before I saw these movies.

I'm very young.

And it's interesting that this at a lot of ways

I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me

where this was where they were first made aware of him.

I love Alfred and Bruce's relationship

because it echoes Bruce's later comic book relationships

to the various robins.

And the moment where Alfred,

and Alfred being an Englishman really drives this home

for me, Alfred is talking about the Wayne legacy

and the Wayne name and what it means

and why you have to take care of it.

And then Bruce saying, well, it's not your name,

it's not your family, why do you care?

That seems breaks my heart every time and you said this.

To me, the first year I met you,

if you make Alfred cry, you make all the rest of us cry.

And I think this movie really echoes that.

Alfred is Batman's real dad.

He's perfect.

Mark, how do you feel about what I think

is a stellar performance from Michael Cain in this movie?

And I will admit, when I first heard Michael Cain

was cast as Alfred in 2004.

You went on Twitter and said, no way.

No, Twitter didn't exist at that time.

I'm certain I Facebooked about it.

I thought he would overwhelm the role

because I knew who Michael Cain was.

Michael Cain was a great actor,

but Michael Cain generally does Michael Cain.

And I am happy to admit that 2004 Jason was a stupid idiot

and that I was completely wrong about that.

But Mark, how do you feel about Michael Cain as Alfred?

Yeah, that'll be my online Twitter campaign

is cancel Jason from 2004.

Oh, my Facebook is private.

It's a good luck, everybody.

I love Michael Cain.

I mean, I've known about Michael Cain

since I was a little, little kid and saw Jaws the Revenge

and how great he was in that.