Before You Pull Pennywort, Listen to This - with April Punsalan

Welcome to the Erbs with Rosalie Podcast, a show exploring how Erbs heal as medicine,

as food, and their nature connection.

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I'm an herbalist teacher and the best-selling author of the books Alchemy of Erbs and

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Okay, grab your cup of tea.

Let's dive in.

Well, today's episode is about Pennywort.

A plant that, depending on where you live, might be something you've spent years trying

to get rid of.

And my guest is April Poncellon, who has a fascinating background that includes botany

and the U.S. Forest Service.

So in this episode, we talk about why Pennywort is cherished in many places around the world,

why April sees it as this plant-rich and chlorophyll and antioxidants, and how she likes to work

with it in simple everyday ways that feel more like nourishment than taking something.

If you've ever looked at a plant in your yard and thought, ugh, not you again, this one

might change your perspective.

If you enjoy this episode, please give it a thumbs up.

The more plant lovers can find us, and be sure to stay tuned until the very end for your

herbal tidbit.

April, I'm thrilled to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you for the invite.

Absolutely.

Well, I'm really looking forward to hearing about the plant you've chosen because I will

say completely new to me.

So I'm excited.

I'm really excited for your recipe as well.

Before we get there, I'm also very interested to hear about all the things that have led you

on this plant path because you have this incredible background, US Forest Service botany, on and

on.

I'm going to let you tell your own story, but I'm excited to hear it.

Oh, thanks for bringing me on the show.

It's nice to finally get to meet you even though we're virtual.

I feel like this, the herbal world is such a small world.

And so I know like we are connected, even though we haven't met yet, so thank you.

I, though, plants, you know, I feel they definitely saved my life and that I was very blessed

to find the path at a young age.

I was in horticulture, but I actually was signed up for computers and this was, I'm going

to give away my age.

This was like 1997, and I was computers because computers were going to be the thing, right?

And I was like, you had to do computers, this were all the money's at and I was in there

and I was falling behind terribly.

And we did a tour of the school and I saw a greenhouse and there was a sweet, beautiful

woman with these students around her.

It was like, Eric, this is name and then this other, I forget the other girl's name and

they were planting pansies.

And I was like, what is that?

She said horticulture.

And I had, it was a two-year program, so I had to stay in school for another year if

I wouldn't do it and my mom was very hesitant.

But then the counselor, whose name was Miss Hart, was like, hey, you know, if she really

loves it, you should let her and so my mom did.

And then it was kind of like, that was the, that was just how I found myself and then

I was staying, you know, after school, reading birds and balloon magazine and she fostered

my love for herbs and she bought even organic herb seeds and had me like to stay fair competitions

with herbal shampoo and lotions and so I started making herbal medicine and herbal products

in high school.

And my mom was a single mother and had three children and she, we didn't have health insurance

and so I healed myself with plants and I had James Duke, you know, the green pharmacy.

And I read that and Rodel's herbal encyclopedia, which I still pull out that book, which I'm

like, wow, that says a lot about that book.

And so that was that, but my mom, you know, being raised by a single mother and being poor,

according to society, whatever, she was like, you're going to get your masters.

Like, it was drilled into my head because both of my aunts had their masters and they were,

they would, you know, help my mom.

They would like send her money and so my mom was like, if you're going to do that and you're

not going to struggle like me.

And so I kind of knew that that wasn't going to be my path that I was going to go and so I did

bought me because I love plants, obviously, and I went to a UNCA Asheville and Western Carolina

University and I was able to be in the Southern Appalachian Mountains, which you probably know

is a biological hotspot for plants because they're like, you know, they say that they used to be

a part of the Himalayan Mountains and they never experienced glaciation.

So all these northern species just retreated to the Southern Appalachian Mountains,

but there's still these relictual species on the top of the, you know, 5,000 feet above elevation.

And I got to train with some of the best botanists in the southeast.

And so I was given the assignment to find these rare plants in the middle of the woods.

And so to find the rare plants, you've got to know all the common ones.

And so I started working on that and learning all the flora.

And then my husband was like, hey, you've got to get me out of Asheville because I am

Philip half Filipino and I got excellent in the winter.

And I play reggae music and I'm like, look, honey, you need to see the bass.

You need to learn how to play bluegrass music.

You have to get gags.

He's like, I'm not getting any gags here.

I'm dying.

And I'm like, okay, and at that time, they were like, April, you have to reapply for your job

because we want to increase the grade level.

And you got to get on USA jobs.

And I'm like, I've never been on USA jobs.

Let me just get on there, right, since I have to compete for my job.

So I get on there and lo and behold, there's a botanist position in Charleston,

South Carolina with the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

And everyone said, like, you're not going to get that job.

Like, Department of Interior, just Hires Department of Interior,

your Department of Ag.

But I was like, hey, you know, and this is where I do what everyone's a USA job, botanist job.

I highly recommend calling the point of contact because they're like,

they don't have anyone in mind for this job.

And so next thing you know, it was like a month later, I moved to Charleston

and took the botanist position for the US Fish and Wildlife Service,

which was then protecting totally endangered plants across the East Coast.

That's wholly different because that's policy.

No longer was I really in the field.

I had to work really hard to get in the field and I had to do a lot of rigorous science.

But what that showed me was how much habitat destruction there is

and how disconnected humans were.

And so it was almost like spirit was like, okay, you have to teach now.

Because at this point, I'm like looking at all these amazing plants,

then they're so the most of them are edible and medicinal.

But very few people are connecting with them.

And I just see this missing link of like, hey, this is the problem, right?

Because if we could save thousands of millions of acres of land as conservationists,

but people don't even know how to connect with it anymore.

And people don't even know what we're really doing in the offices and we're working so hard.

And I worked really hard to see if a species was going to be federally listed.

And it wasn't.

And that was okay, you know, but all that being said is that,

it's federal government is never going to save and protect all the species.

And so I had to teach.

And so that's when I left.

Well, I actually formed the school.

And this is for people that want to leave their nine to five.

And they have a side hustle.

Definitely keep doing it because that's what I did.

I did that for three years.

And at that time when I first started, I just called it healing plant traditions.

I had no idea what I was doing.

I just knew I had to do, I was doing something different, you know.

And then it changed.

It transformed into your whole at herbal school.

And then it transformed into now a wild herb academy.

Because I just wanted to be clear that I'm focusing mostly on wild plants.

And so that's how that happened.

That was a long story.

I'm curious to just know a little bit more about what it was like to work for the department

of the interior to, you know, this sort of thing.

Because I just really have no idea, I feel like I should come up with a clever question,

but I'm not sure what that question is.

But just like, what kind of work did you do?

And what did you find like inspiring or rewarding?

And maybe what did you find challenging in that role?

That's a good question.

Yeah, it's been a long time too, you know.

And I was in that position for eight years, which is crazy.

That was a long time.

And I went in there hot.

Like I've had all this energy and started the South Carolina Plant Conservation Alliance.

I would say the biggest thing is like protecting these plants.

You know, like, because before they didn't have a botanist,

the federal government then Department of Interior didn't have any botanists on the East Coast

at all.

It was just fish and wildlife biologists because they didn't see.

Because for plants, there are no, there's no take, right?

They're like for for a wildlife species, it's different.

And there's going to be a lot more like the project's going to stop.

But for a plant, not very much.

So the fact that they hired a botanist was a huge deal.

But they, so my most rewarding part was actually being able to come in and have a voice for these

plants that hadn't had it.

I give you one example.

Shlimes is sunflower, a federally endangered sunflower.

They're all every time DOT would do a project, they would just move the flowers.

And they would put it in a museum called the Bratton'sville Museum.

And they would just plant them there.

And I was like, that's not conservation or recovery because now it's just going to be at a

museum and these populations aren't functioning as populations.

I was like, we're going to dig them up.

We're going to safeguard them.

And then when you're done with the DOT project, we're putting them back.

You know, that was, it was nice to be there, to be in that role and to really like

be able to be a voice for the plants.

And everyone was really

honored that.

Like everyone came to me for advice.

It was amazing how much I was respected in that role.

And it wasn't like, oh my gosh, we have a botanist.

You know, it was like, we have a botanist.

We can go ask her.

So it was hard to leave.

The hardest part was having to do all the policy-driven work.

And to be within the policy and do these five-year reviews.

So when you become a botanist or a fish and wildlife biologist

for the federal and for a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,

you have to do what's called five-year reviews.

And they'll give you like certain species.

Like you're now the national lead for X, Y, and Z.

And you're responsible for the recovery.

And when you get that, it feels great.

Because you're like, oh my gosh, I can work with all these partners.

I can do all this great work.

And you can't.

Like there are no limitations on what a fish and wildlife biologist

or botanist can do with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Barely.

If you have energy.

But then when you get into like the policy of everything,

you have to send the government.

Or you have to submit.

It's like, oh gosh, it's like writing a master's again.

And so when I had to do that,

this is called a species task assessment

to determine if a species was going to be federally listed.

And it was like a whole year.

And it was like a 300-page document.

That's kind of when I was like, I didn't sign up for this.

Like I can't do this work.

I have to be outside.

I have to be with the plants.

And at that time, that's when it was like, I have to teach.

You know, but anyway.

So the most rewarding is like actually getting to help the plants.

And then the most challenging is all that writing

that you have to do.

That is interesting to think about that

just because I'm sure most botanists,

we know that we want to be with the plants.

Just even one of my good friends

is a works for a fish and wildlife.

And he's a fish botanist, a fish biologist.

And he loves being in the rivers with the fish.

So I can imagine that's kind of, yeah.

Yeah, a tough one on that.

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Okay, now back to the show.

I imagine, I know the answer to this,

but I'm just curious to ask,

what do you see as some of the biggest challenges facing plants

in terms of, you know, being endangered

and just the challenges that plants are facing right now?

I feel on the East Coast, that's a really good question.

The East Coast is fire, you know,

because a lot of these ecosystems were fire adapted.

And because we have so many roads and schools and houses,

we can't do the fire.

And so, you know, I had to go back to like manuscripts

and different things from really explorers from the 1700s.

And they would say that the indigenous people

lit the woods on fire from October until March, you know.

And there are plants that will never see come back

because we're not able to do that.

And so these ecosystems can't function the way that they used to

because of so much degradation and land alteration.

But yeah, definitely all the stuff we buy from Amazon,

every time we click purchase, that's a huge impact.

So our consumerism, I think, is huge.

And we don't really see it because it's not a direct impact.

It's, you know, but as a former botanist,

I would have to clear all the Amazon centers,

every time a distribution center,

any kind of distribution center went in,

it would be like hundreds and hundreds of acres.

So all the stuff that we buy has been stored somewhere.

And so I would just think that like our,

our insatiable desire for stuff

and that driving that consumerism

is the biggest risk to species.

So we could think about it every time it's like

fueling habitat destruction.

Sorry, I just wanted to.

Yeah, yeah, it's fueling habitat destruction.

It's like I think of it as a take.

Like every time we buy something,

whether it's this microphone I'm talking in

or that blue folder over there or I read or glasses,

it's a take from the environment.

So we have to think about it in terms of resources.

And I'm really try and minimize how much stuff

that we buy day to day

because it really does have an impact on the habitat somewhere.

It's having an impact.

And then and then too,

just the disconnection between humans and nature.

That's huge.

There's that disconnect.

And I think like,

I don't know if you ever heard of Doug Talamey,

you would love him.

But he says,

nature's best hope is you.

And he has a book and I love it.

Nature's best hope is you.

And he says,

if all of us let our yards be wild,

and we let the wild plants come in,

then we could protect.

We would have way more land

than all the national parks in the nation.

And so I think I love that approach

that it's it's really has to start with us

instead of thinking that it's like going to be

in the federal government's hands or policy.

We really have to take responsibility for it.

Even if our even if we're an apartment,

even if we're in you know,

the city and we have a tiny yard,

like we can make a difference.

That's beautiful April.

I love thinking about that too,

just all of those lawns out there

that could be rewilded.

I'm forgetting the book now,

but there's a really great book out there

talking about just how important

our native plants are for our native pollinators

and our insects,

you know, all these relationships that have grown

so, you know, for so long

and are so strong,

but if they don't have their native plants in an area,

that's really important.

And I think of that flying over

suburbs, you know,

like literally flying above in a plane

and looking down and just seeing like,

wow, there's because where I live,

I'm surrounded by native plants.

So I kind of forget about that.

And then I look at these like how drastically

change these environments are

and how they are missing their native shrubs

and plants and all the insects and birds

and beings that are longing

to be a part of that cycle as well.

I also have to go back to what you said

the first thing because I did not expect that

when you mentioned fire

as being an important missing piece.

And my husband is just starting a

prescribed burn association,

which is working with local landowners

to bring fire back to the lands.

And you know, it's sustainable safe ways.

And there's all these at least on the west coast,

there's a lot of move to do that.

And insurance being set up

and organizations and so he works with the DNR

and US Forest Service

and, you know, working to get this going.

It's just kind of starting

and we've had a couple of burns on our property

and it's just so fascinating to watch

the plants come back to life

in just a really cool way.

And through that, as you mentioned,

there was a lot of honoring

just the indigenous ways

of how they've tended the land for so long.

And yeah, so anyway,

I didn't expect you to say that.

And that was a very pleasant surprise.

I will definitely be going to tell

my handsome French husband about that

as soon as we're done.

But it's also that you have

that you can witness it on

and see the cycles.

We have all the nutrients go back

to the land when you do fire.

You know, and then there's so many species

that depend on that.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it's really

here in the East Coast.

Really hard.

But there's so many species that depend on it.

And there are a lot of botanists

that are really good

and they will time their excursions

based on the last time the fire.

They will know that only certain

orchids are coming up

after that fire.

And there's a whole timing thing,

you know,

I noticed like March fires

some of the plants won't do as good.

He's just right before some of the spring

federally endangered plants will come up.

So I would have to try

and work the forest service

to get them to burn more like in the fall,

which tends to be a little more natural

timing like the fall

instead of early spring and March.

Especially here in South Carolina

where March is kind of like

is the spring not dormant.

Well, it's so fascinating to hear

from that perspective.

And so thanks for sharing about that.

And just yeah, that

that role that botanist role

and just how that might be changing,

you know, just hearing about the DOT

and just changing the landscape

within how we actually conserve

plants is really beautiful as well.

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Well, the plant that you've chosen, Pennywort,

I'm so excited about this

because I did not recognize the plant name

when I saw it come up,

which is I will say somewhat rare for me.

And so then I looked up the plant

and I was like, oh, that plant.

I see that plant everywhere,

but somehow it's never really met before.

So yeah, I'm like,

I'm just ready to sit

and learn from you about plants.

One question I often like to ask

and I'm especially interested in this for you

is, why did you choose this plant of all plants?

I think it's because it's,

so I wanted to pick something

that's on the west coast too, right?

And I wanted to pick something

that maybe not as many herbalists know about.

I wanted to do because I feel like we share

some pretty good common herbs like,

you know, lambs quarter or, you know,

violets and we all love, you know,

we all love and have a beautiful relationship with those.

But Pennymore is one of those ones,

Hydracodal,

that are in the North America

or Lisa in the United States.

Not a lot of herbas are working with,

but if you go anywhere else around the world,

it's sold as markets.

And so it offers us so many benefits

and so I felt like that's why.

And also the recipe is super easy.

And you're like, give me a recipe.

I'm like, okay, this recipe, anyone could do,

you know, a busy entrepreneurial woman can make it

in a heartbeat, you know, anyone can do it.

And so I felt like it would be a good one to share.

And there's, it grows on the east coast

and on the west coast, but different species.

And so that's like the whole thing of learning.

So whenever I teach, I always teach students

Latin names and teach them medical botany

because I want them to know,

like they don't have to rely on the one I have,

which is hydrocodile boneariancis,

or the one that grows here.

And then there's hydrocodile umbalata,

but the one on the west coast is hydrocodile renunculoides.

And there's a couple other ones.

And so like knowing that, just hydrocodile sphuck,

which means all the species in hydrocodile,

it will liberate you.

And then you, and they all have like circular leaves

that are super pretty and cute.

And yeah, but it's just a great herb to befriend.

And also chlorophyll.

So the recipe when we get into that, you know,

it's all about getting the chlorophyll in the antioxidants

into your body.

So I see it really as this anti-cancer herb

that protects our body from free radicals and aging.

Yeah, lovely.

Well, yeah, where you could start there

or dive in somewhere else in terms of plant gifts

and all the beauty this little guy has to share with us.

Yeah, so it is a very, if you've never seen it,

you should google it.

But I imagine you'll maybe share a picture of the recipe.

Hydrocodile, it grows around the world.

And in India, they call it brahmin,

and they call it other names.

And they don't even, a lot of times, differentiate

between hydrocodile and gokola.

Like they see them the same.

And one time, a film or phone,

Sacred Science came and he was in my front garden.

He was like, oh my gosh, you have brahmin.

And he was talking about anymore.

And everyone here reads it out.

Everyone cannot stand this plant.

And they pull it out their garden.

But it's so persistent and you cannot get rid of it.

And so that speaks about its medicine

because it will spread and it's closer to the earth

and has a really cool botany.

Like it has a leaf shape called peltase.

You can hold it like an umbrella

and it's circular and it's kind of scallop

along the leaf margin.

And it looks like a lot of people say

the cerebellum of the brain.

And so I think in India,

they saw it as a doctrine of signatures.

And they said that it was really good for the brain.

And that has a lot of antioxidants.

The way that I see it in the landscape,

and I observe it, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense

because it survives your round here.

It's very resilient.

And so that speaks to me that it has a lot of antioxidants.

But it doesn't have like a lot of tannins in it

or anything that keep us from consuming a decent amount.

And so we can consume more of it than other herbs.

And it's just, I'm trying to think of,

there's anything else that I want to say,

you know, it's closer to the earth,

which I think is kind of cool.

And it has these stolen the first rhizomes

that are underneath the earth.

And it travels really far.

And the leaves are,

they are molecular science and science.

Modern research has shown us that the indigenous people know it,

you know, in India know what they're talking about

because it's really, really high in antioxidants.

And it has shown to be anti-cancer against many different types of cancer.

I don't have a memorized, I've read,

I went down a rabbit hole with it.

I read so many pure, surgical articles.

But what I started thinking about is just like,

I'm just going to take this like a couple leaves

and just wind it in water.

Because a lot of times,

for a long time in my herbal path, I made teas.

And I am pit-a-fire.

And I like sometimes these teas have a lot of tannins

and they're making me my mouth dry.

And so I really want like,

cool, like room temperature.

And I really want the chlorophyll and the medicine

without like the drying tannins and all that.

So I put it in, I put just the leaves

and two cups of water and blended it and on high speed.

And lo and behold, it just turns as beautiful green color.

And so I drink that and I get the antioxidants.

But I did play around with it.

You know, it's kind of like any new wild herb that you work with.

Which I highly recommend doing,

even if no other person's working with it.

And just like dry it and then see, you know,

this is what I did, I dried it.

And I was like, no, the antioxidants die.

Like I could just tell, I dried it and it was not the same.

So I was like, okay, there's something about that.

And I think I just lost a lot of the medicine.

And so I just kept blending it.

And I did a post on my Facebook probably like a couple of months ago

and it blew up.

I said, this is a wild herb that everyone sees as a weed in America.

But everyone uses around the world.

And all these people from around the world commented.

Yeah, and they were like, yeah, this is how we use it.

And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is, this is awesome.

And one guy shared with me something that was,

this is the best recipe, which I think I put on there.

And he did it the same way I did.

He uses the leaves, but he uses coconut water.

And so I will admit that I am like, I eat to live, right?

And I live to eat.

And so like it doesn't taste as good.

And sometimes I'll add honey.

Maybe I'll add some mint, you know,

but I'm like just doing this right to get the chlorophyll and

antioxidants in my body.

But when I did it, when I mixed it with the coconut water,

I was like, dang, now this is good.

This actually tastes good.

Not only is it good for you, but it tastes good.

So I highly recommend if you have Pennywort

around you blend it with the coconut water,

because that's a whole, that's a game changer.

But it was cool to hear like these people,

another country's using it in a similar way.

But you can, you can like even Google it,

and you can see it at market, you know,

in Mexico and India,

and you'll just have big tables full of it.

They people eat it fresh.

It's like it's often said fresh.

It's all fresh, always so fresh.

And they eat their rhizomes,

and there's some literature or ethnobotany that

shows that people will make a big tea like five liters

and they'll drink it.

And the juice is really good for your skin.

The tea is really good for your skin,

and it gets rid of fricals.

I don't know.

I haven't played with it on my skin.

I just, I just didn't get it.

And I just like a fresh.

But I think, you know, it's herbalists,

we're all going to find our own way,

how to connect with the plant,

that there are probably a million other ways

that you could work with this plant.

Like you could put it in facial creams.

You could probably put it in infused oils,

you know, because anything that's high in antioxidants

is going to be great for our skin.

But I just haven't gone there with it yet.

Yes, so your recipe is hydrocodled chlorophyll refresher,

and it was the coconut water that caught my attention,

because this is basically a suckus, a fresh preparation.

And I, but I'd never, I can't think I,

I can't say that I've ever considered making a suckus

with coconut water before,

and that really did sound like a super refresher.

So that's lovely.

I also love how you said, or spring water,

which my good friend Mason Hutchison from Urbrally

who recommended you for the show.

He's a huge spring water enthusiast.

So yeah, so it's cool to see one of those being opted for,

but I'm excited to try this with the coconut water

and other suckus as well.

Like I could see cleavers and chickweed

and these kind of spring time greens would be lovely for that.

And it's interesting you're talking about,

you know, use it fresh, use it fresh, use it fresh,

and you said where you are,

it's always available fresh.

So that kind of speaks to that as well.

And I'm guessing probably in a lot of climates

in various places in India.

It's probably similar that it's, you know,

I could see Mexico too.

There's these warmer, typically warmer climates

having access to this all year round.

I have a lot of snow on the ground right now.

So it's no, but in other places, yes.

But yeah, it sounds absolutely,

yeah, just incredibly refreshing.

Like you said, this like little chlorophyll boost.

I think we need more chlorophyll

because of chlorophyll.

I don't think people realize it degrades after 48 hours

and it turns the chlorophyll in.

And then that degrades even more after two weeks.

So even if we go to the grocery store

and where a buying source chart or whatever a buying,

like that's not,

it doesn't have the chlorophyll our buying needs,

our blood needs to stay properly.

Like the hemoglobin just to keep a better form

that actually needs our blood better.

And so I've just been really going really deep with chlorophyll

and realizing how much that pigment is so good for our health.

But we're not getting what we need in North America.

And modern countries, we're not getting what we need.

But yeah, there was something else I was going to tell you

about Hydrocoddle.

And I think I spaced it.

Maybe it'll come back to me.

There was something else about that,

but I don't remember.

Sorry.

While you're thinking about that,

I'll just let all the listeners and watchers know

that you can download your copy

of this beautifully illustrated recipe.

You can check out the show notes

or go to urpsethrosilypodcast.com.

And yeah, it's super simple.

I'm excited to make it as well.

Yeah, very simple, which I love.

And two, for people that have inflammation

in the urinary system,

you know, that they need,

you know, if they have low energy

and they need a little bit more of a boost,

I feel like it's so good just to pulverize,

you know, fresh, wild herbs and water

and just drink it, you know.

And sometimes I'll use aloe pulp

because again, I am pitta.

And my, like, I have,

sometimes get inflammation in my urinary system

and that just takes it out.

The aloe vera with some, you know,

hydrocodle and water is so good,

so good for you.

And so simple.

And it's always there.

Well, at least here, it's always there.

Oh, I don't know what I was going to say.

For those people that don't have it,

or it's, you know, winter and it's snow,

one of the members of wild herb academy

sent me a picture of these beautiful pots with hydrocodle

and they grow it in temples.

And I, I don't remember, I feel,

I know it was in Asia somewhere,

but I don't know exactly where,

but there was just these beautiful pots

full of hydrocodle.

And so it can, it could grow in a pot.

You could, you could buy it.

I've seen it on it's eat.

Like I've got on it's eat

and I've seen all different types of hydrocodle plants.

So you can always buy it and grow it.

I gave them some to my mom

and my mom lives in Norfolk, Virginia.

And it's native to there,

but it's not as common as it is here.

And it grew, it took.

She put it right by this little pond she has

and it's growing great.

Oh, that's so cool.

Yeah, here you need to talk about,

like it's how important chlorophyll is

and how important fresh, that freshness is.

Just reminds me there's a lot of people

who don't have access to really fresh fruit,

you know, even if you buy fresh fruits

or vegetables at the store,

they might be a week old or more, you know,

before they actually get eaten.

And so this is a cool way

to just get super fresh plants into our systems.

Very much so and so fast and so easy

and really good for people that are

dealing with inflammation and ituses.

Because sometimes I don't feel like hot teas

or that can be that great for some people

in their constitutions.

And that was like me, you know,

like what drink this and drink that

and dandelion tea and this and that

and that's like, well, actually,

that's not that great for me.

And then and I knew and like I knew that intuitively,

but it wasn't until I really started applying

the practices of arugabade and I like 15 years ago

that I was like, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Like that, I can't do that.

And so that's why I think I gravitate

towards those water infusions.

With any herb I'm working with over a hot tea infusion,

it just always feels better to me.

It always leaves my body feeling happier

than like a strong decoction of a tea or something.

Interesting.

Well, is there anything else

that you'd like to go over with hydrocoddle

before we move on?

Try and eat it so I will say this.

So it's not how many wild herbs you know

is how well you know each one.

And for the longest time,

I would do foraging walks and people,

all the students would be like,

April, what's that?

I'm like, I don't know.

For the longest time, you know, for the longest time.

Probably like at least five years students

being like, April, what is that?

And I'm like, I don't know.

And so I think that was a lesson really

for other herbalists and other students.

It's like, you know, you have to wait

and to form that relationship.

Even if you see like an herb on, you know,

trending on Instagram with this for that,

like everyone's doing blue lotus

or everyone's doing blue butterfly pea.

Like that's not really what is going to help you.

I feel for a deep relationship with the plant.

What's going to really help you is like,

when you, when the plant picks up on you

and you pick up on the plant and the timing is right.

Because the timing really had to be right

for me and hydrocoddle the bond.

And then we finally did.

But just like there's another plant

that's called a, this philanthropist.

It's like a kidney stone root or something

and it grows all over my yard.

And last year, I felt like it was really the time

and I was going to go in with it.

And I've known about this plant

and it's healing properties for like 15 years

but I have not yet connected with it.

So it's like you really have to be slow and take your time,

you know, and if the plant is not talking to you,

then that's okay, you just wait.

That's my, that's what I've learned from hydrocoddle

because I knew it was medicine for the longest time.

But I, and I was like going to teach people

what I just read, you know, I wasn't going to,

I don't teach people until I have no

what it does in my body.

And so that would be my advice as an herbalist.

It's like just really, that's the benefit too

of connecting with wild plants

because one, there's ecological herbalism

and you get to really view the plant

and you watch the plant for a while.

And then you, you, you pick up on its energy

and its footprint and your energy is picking up

and your exchange and information.

And then you do it.

It's kind of like a friendship.

So that would be what I would share with that

because it's patience, you know,

there's a, there's patience when it comes to herbalism.

It's so true.

I've had that experience so many times

where there's just been a plant

that like just wasn't really like up for me

and then all of a sudden,

it just seemed like that plants everywhere I go.

It's on my mind.

There's so much to think about

and then I just become enraptured

and that's the time to just pay attention and dive in.

I love that.

Yeah, then you know, because the plant is going to pop up

and speak to you and it's communicating

that it wants you to work with it.

I think that is when you, you really have to be like,

okay, and there's another thing

like we have to take the time to, you know,

and that's what we want to do as herbalists

but sometimes we're busy doing other things.

Yeah, there's something to be said

for the value of paying attention.

Very much and honoring that and honoring that

and trusting your intuition

when your first game started,

I feel like it took me a long time

and maybe that's the path, you know,

that's the path that we take

where we are more reliant on what we read

and what we're learning from other people

and then we develop some kind of sovereignty and empowerment

where we like, we embody it more

and we don't have to open the book anymore

because the book is, are the plants outside

but and so maybe that is just like the path, maybe,

but if you can't shorten it

and you can just know that you can learn so much

from the plant before going to a book, that is,

or maybe you even just try and feel into it

and intuitively write down what you think the plant is for

or how you want to connect with it and then you read.

I wish someone would have taught me that

when I was really young, first learning herbalism,

I think that would have been really empowering to me

at a young age.

That just reminds me of your origin story

and I just love how people planting pans

is just immediately grabbed you.

I was just like, yep, that's what I'm doing.

I just love that so much.

That's so just, I feel like that a lot of people

have that experience were suddenly

it's just like, you know, they got turned on by plants

and it's like, oh, okay, I hear you, I'm here for you.

Yeah, that memory, it's like,

I don't have that many memories from my childhood

that at times literally stood still.

It literally was like, weird, everybody disappeared

and all I could see was mispears

and those students in that greenhouse

and it was just like, and so yeah,

if you ever have this moment in your life

whether you're at a conference or you're, you know,

you're somewhere in another country

and you're just like, time starts to stand still

and that's your soul.

Your soul's feeling like, hey.

Yeah, that's great advice right there, April, for sure.

Well, I'd love to hear what you have going on.

I know you have some exciting projects coming up.

Yeah, I wrote a book.

It's called Foraging Wilderbs 30 Healing Plants

along the Carolina coast and that comes out in April 14th.

So depending on when you're watching this,

it may be out but you can already pre-order it on Amazon

and USC Press, like if you can go to USC Press

and that was a dream come true.

I worked really hard on that for a long time

and I kind of already always envisioned myself

writing a book and so it feels good to finally

have that desire and turn it into, you know,

manifest that and there's so much time and energy

that went into that.

The hydrochannel recipes in there

and there's other things, you know, like Magnolia,

Grand Magnolia and some other plants that maybe

herbalists don't know or anyone's working with largely

and so it took me a long time

as I had to work with them all independently.

So like five years and yeah, it took me five years

and so that it feels really good

and then I, you know, I teach medical botany,

which is that I every time I teach it,

I get so excited and so I know that's right for me to teach

because it's this kind of like for students

to go from learning a limited amount

to learning an unlimited amount of herbs

and how they want to approach it

and how they want to interact with nature.

And I feel as I'm, you know, getting older

and meditating more and having my own morning meditation

practice that I'm able to be stronger

and sharing my spirituality

and weaving spirit and with science,

which I always wanted to do, you know,

when I was a botless for the government

and I kind of had to keep them separate.

So like I have my spiritual side

and then I have the sign.

So it's such a beautiful thing

to have them weaving together like two strands.

So that at this time in my career, my path,

my Dharma really, it's my Dharma,

it feels so beautiful.

And so I'm trying to step,

trying to just be completely open

and coming from my heart and my soul.

But helping students use the left and the right side

of the brain and realizing like the importance of that

and how it's not woo-woo

and people can really understand that

it's important, you know, to use the right side of your brain.

And that's a huge part of herbalism.

But then of course, there's the big left side too

that we've been there, you know, we've been a botanist

and we geek out on all the science and the lot of me.

And so that's good.

And I'll probably continue to teach that for who knows,

right, until the day I die.

I don't know.

I maybe teach at middle of the day I die

because I love it.

And we are really fortunate because we have a teacher

from India in the Shant Gurude.

And he worked with the Gon tribe,

which is one of the oldest tribes in India.

And he just has his depth to him.

And he's such a beautiful soul.

And I interviewed him on the wild herb podcast.

And I have very few episodes,

but I was the first person I ever interviewed.

And he's just, you have to interview him.

He has this, because in India, they're spirit, right?

They're connections of the soul and the spirit

and spirituality is a huge part of their life.

And so it's just awesome for him,

like he would get, you know, encouraged

students to write proverbs on plants

and how they pray with holy basil in the morning.

They pray with holy basil three times a day.

And his mom would like to candle with holy basil

and they don't forge it at night.

And there's all these beautiful practices

where they're honoring the plant.

And so I feel like it's really an honor

to be able to work with him

because I feel like I've been missing that in this country,

which I'm sure you feel too,

and all of us herbalists and medicine people.

You know, and we realized at one point,

like I don't know if you've felt this,

but I felt this growing up that I was always like,

categorized as the flower child

or I didn't fit in with all the clicky people.

And it didn't occur to me

till I went to this festival called

The Gathering of the Peace Makers

that I was a medicine person, and that's why.

But, you know, in another country,

I might have been acknowledged, you know,

and had a mentor and I didn't have that.

So it took me a really long time

to understand this connection and this gift.

So I would also, if you're watching and you feel that

and sometimes you don't want people to think you're woo-woo

or you don't want to sound a certain way,

definitely just be authentic, you know.

We have to be authentic in our country

because we need it the most.

So being able to see Nassant come out

and just be so open with the spirituality

and its family spirituality and how it relates to plants,

it's very refreshing for me.

So yeah, and that's, those are the big ones.

And I hope to maybe work on book number two this year

after it gets published in April.

Wow.

What's such a beautiful offerings,

and that was just beautiful sentiments

that you shared as well.

I know that must resonate with a lot of people.

Where can they find you best?

So I have wilderbacademy.com is a good place to go

and I tried to post stuff on there, you know,

whatever I'm doing, I've gotten better about having things

like the offerings be a little bit more upfront center.

And then I'm on social media and Instagram and Facebook.

And yeah, and that's where you can find me online.

And I do do in person too because I think that's important.

And so I do a retreat on the East Coast.

I'm doing good medicine confluence.

And actually I'm drinking out of the mug.

So I'll be there if you want to come hang out

in New Mexico, Santa Fe, like Albuquerque.

It's so beautiful.

It's called the Ghost Ranch.

And I loved it, highly recommend it.

That's just the trails and the native plants are unbelievable.

So I'll be doing that.

But yeah, because I think it's important for us

to get together too in person.

Absolutely.

Well, April, before you go, I have one last question for you.

And that question is, what's something

the herbs have taught you that you maybe weren't expecting?

That's a really good question.

So I think definitely the ecology of plants, the herb,

like herb like herb ecology.

I didn't ever suspect, expect that I was going to maybe

pay as much attention or that it really is a thing.

I never knew was a thing.

I took ecology and college, or study ecology,

applied it in my careers.

And of course, I learned herbalism and study

herbalism all the time too.

And just lately, like in the past five years,

I have really been honing in on where the plants growing,

how it's growing, to really help me learn

about the energetics from an Ayurvedic standpoint.

And so that's been fascinating.

Just like, oh, plants that are getting a ton of sun,

tend to have dry up the system more.

We're plants that are cool and dry and in cool and moist.

Are really good for inflammation.

They help bring more earth and water to people

that are fire and air.

And I would say that's about 80% of the time for conditions.

We can heal it with the opposite element.

And those plants embody that by where they're growing.

And so that's been a lot of fun for me.

I didn't expect that.

And just going to keep diving deeper and paying more attention

to ecological herbalism.

It's a lot of fun.

Hmm.

Yeah, there's no way for us to get bored as herbalists,

because we can keep upturning, I was going to say stones,

but we could look at the other sides of leaves

for the rest of our lives and be entertained and enthralled.

For sure.

Yeah, I think we'll be learning.

I might be learning until the day I take my last breath, you know?

And that's the beauty of doing what you love

is because there isn't a retirement, right?

Yeah.

So it's almost like you just, it just gets more fun

and more mysterious and learning about plants

and their energy and how they respond to us,

and all that fun stuff kind of helps.

Yeah, so true.

Well, it's been so lovely to sit down with you

and hear about your story, hear about Pennywort.

And yeah, I'm excited to come across this plant again.

Now I'll know.

Yeah.

Yeah, send me a picture when you find it in the field,

because I'll be curious to know which one you have.

I think, if I remember correctly, the one

is Reneguilities, where do you live again?

I'm in Eastern Washington.

So it's going to probably be more either higher up

along a streambed or, you know,

on the other side of the mountains.

Where do you live, myster?

Yeah, that would be really cool to see.

Yeah, I'd be curious.

It's so fun where you live.

Well, thank you for having me on.

It was a lot of fun.

And I feel like I want to hear more about you and your journey.

If that happens, I'll be on cloud or podcast.

That would be lovely.

And I hope to take it to the Carolina's one day.

So be lovely to have a cup of tea.

Yeah, let me know.

Let me know.

Well, thanks again for being here, April.

Yeah, thank you.

Thanks so much for listening.

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Okay, you've made it to the end of the show,

which means you get a gold star and this herbal tidbit.

Here's something fascinating about hydrocoddle.

So for a long time, it was grouped in the carrot family,

the APAC, along with aromatic volatile oil,

rich plants like fennel and cilantro.

But modern taxonomy has placed hydrocoddle

in the Aralea ACA family.

And that's the same family as ginseng.

So this low-growing,

one-level weed is botanically related

to one of the most revered tonic roots in the world.

Now, that doesn't mean the hydrocoddle acts like ginseng.

It definitely doesn't.

But I do find it fascinating that they share a family.

As always, thanks for joining me.

I'll see you in the next episode.

You