Ben Dhiman: Before he was a UTMB Champion

0:00Welcome to the free outside show. I'm your host Jeff Garmire. This is where we dive into anything we want and I thought this would be pretty fun. But first before I tell you what we're gonna go over today, I just did a backpacking trip well I guess they call it fast packing and I've always wondered what in the heck is fast packing. I've actually written some articles about it but you know they when they edit your work or some of these publications they take things out of context and change it around and they just really want an answer to the headline or they slap their own headline on it but I went fast packing so I did like 60 miles in 25 30 hours and it was amazing. I wanted to test my body I have few little things that have been going around going on with my body specifically like rolled an ankle a couple weeks ago wanted to see how that held up and then I just needed some vert little heavier pack wanted to see how I

1:02felt about the possibility of going after an FKT this year and by this year I mean within the next week or so and I'm still kind of on the fence. I think there's a couple things my ankles swelled up a little bit things hurt a little bit more than I wanted I also had about 15 pounds in my back which I guess is fast packing you guys should just let me know what the heck fast packing even is because I guess it's when you move efficiently or carry less weight but I don't think it has to be running and I don't think your pack has to weigh under a certain amount maybe it's just the difference between when I grow backpacking with 60 pound packs we would carry a 10 pound rubber raft into a lake and then we would stay there for a couple days the outdoors that I grew up in that I was introduced to was very much on the side of recreating in it rather than simply

2:03hiking or running through it like I grew up hunting especially duck hunting fishing a lot of fly fishing still fly fish today but it was very different I didn't even discover the Pacific Crest trailer anything until I was in high school and we were on one of these infamous backpacking trips and we met Wanda in Philippe this would have been 2008 and they were looking a little beat up they were smelly they were dirty much like the through hiker I would soon become and that stuck in my mind but that was my first interaction with it and so this fast packing trip it went pretty good but I'm having it's so hard because the FKT's I want to go after are very top tier the very difficult they're not anything as long as the Appalachian Trail but I need to be a hundred percent ready to give everything to it and the problem is that there's a little bit of doubt that's what your mind can cling on to and make things pretty

3:05difficult this is the same strategy I implement with coaching people for things like coconut too is we want to answer as many questions as we can ahead of time or have a problem solving scenario set up a decision tree what we're going to do if something like your stomach turns or your ankle hurts or knee issue or just motivation or tired or hallucinating like all these things can have an action plan with them and that's sort of my coaching style that's my FKT style but the hardest thing is preparing for these mentally because of what goes into them you know you're gonna be so tired you know you're gonna be hurting you know you're gonna have to move with efficiency and ferociousness for a long time and so you have to enter these things feeling good about things mentally and that's what this trip was I took some fun food to really immerse myself I had a great time I went out to one of the most

4:07underrated trails I think in the world the Gallatin Crest Trail there's actually a video on my excuse me there's a video on my YouTube about it too so I think that's really cool what did I learn so I learned I loved it I found a new route that it was all according to my map on national forest I wanted to make a loop rather than just an out and back on the crest of a mountain range but this is like a 10,000 foot crest of a mountain range it's very cool I'll I'll put up something on YouTube if you subscribe over there but I made a loop and according to my map it was not trespassing because I was in the national forest but I think it ended up being on some grazing land because I had to crawl under a fence and climb straight up 5,000 feet to rejoin the trail to make it more of a balloon shape but anyways it was very good it was very centering and I just love the simplicity of being out there the cold nights the sleeping bag where

5:10cozy inside of the the goal bless me wow man sneezing but I just the pace of life everything so it was a really good time to think think about how motivated I was for an FKT if things felt right how I felt with fitness fueling practice that I had a fast packing setup actually used the John G J N J I dot com use code free outside for 10% off the Revy pack which I think is build more as a commuter bag but I was actually just curious how it would do on a fast packing trip so I packed it I had a sleeping bag I had a thin tarp and I had a jacket like an insulated jacket also John G and then so much food but it all fit it worked pretty good I carried two liters of water because I was up on a ridge held up well but after

6:12the trip I still have so much doubt so will I go for an FKT I'm not quite sure we'll see it was a fun time out there I love exploring the Montana wilderness the ridge lines because like within 30 minutes I can be on a world-class trail it cost more to live here price of cost of living is high but what you get for it is so amazing so today I wanted to express something and then get into our guest so I'm actually going to replay an episode from January I very rarely do this mostly I just did it when I was on the Appalachian Trail and trying to continue to give some content because this has been out for almost three years and so we have like 250 episodes and I feel like some of them get lost but I started this podcast with the intent of creating this community and well I started it to get better at talking and what I wanted to

7:16talk about was this intersection of through hikers trail runners FKT's outdoor people even things like unsupported adventures and things like that that are outdoors where it really focuses on these interesting people and why they do it why they enjoy it in this mindset and then maybe eventually if it if this podcast took off have like a community or see the through lines that maybe you don't like sleeping outside or camping outside but you can appreciate people that do the Pacific Crest Trail or maybe you're a through hiker and never want to run an ultra marathon but using the same trails as those who are on a trail run or the coolest thing when you're through hiking is walking through the aid stations of a race this actually happened in 20 2011 on my first through hike on like day two of the trail there was a ultra marathon going on and I walked through all the aid stations and they gave me what would have been I guess we'll call it trail magic but they gave me any

8:20extra food that I wanted and when you're a through hiker you love that so I think there's this common theme through how and who likes to use these outdoor areas and I think it's so important to recognize that you don't just have to be one thing we all come from so many different places so many different types of enjoyment of the outdoors and we change over time how we are today is not gonna dictate how we are in the future when I was 15 I was bullied in cross-country and quit and hated running eventually I found my way back to it and running is quite a major part of my life I would say the major factor that's driven so many things within my life between connecting with people between making an income between having even a platform so I think keeping that in mind and just knowing that this through line of outdoor users what we can become and just slowly gaining experience building on that and having the drive in the

9:25mindset even when no one else does back early on I didn't have a lot of belief in me from a lot of people a lot of publications lots thought I was eccentric or ridiculous or crazy or weird and this goes back to college and stuff too even doing triathlons and just approaching things a little different but in a way that was motivating captivating and fun for for my mind my mindset how I did things how I could do things because even if you do something poorly but you do your way and you love doing it that still counts a lot of people might try to follow the roadmap from somebody else and do it that way and might have a miserable time or they might quit but maybe that's a more efficient way or a better way but that doesn't mean you got everything out of it that you wanted to get out of it so chase things your own way you'll find how to make it work but today I wanted to bring back this conversation with Ben demon because it is so

10:29fun it's fascinating through hiker took that to an extreme level settled down more became more of a runner morphed into that and then has really cool thoughts on the world especially being well traveled and the escapism that exists and it was a really fun conversation that we had in January and he just won UTMB which has to be one of the biggest hundred miles mylers in the world so I thought this would be a really fun conversation to bring back I hope you enjoy it and with that if you haven't watched it rewritten it's doing pretty well on YouTube I think we're gonna be knocking on the door of 50,000 views in a week so that is very cool we're very proud of it and would love for you guys go watch it leave a comment whatever it may be while you're here smash that subscribe button me and Allison also have a weekly podcast on Wednesdays where we just have a conversation it's kind of fun if you want to act like you're

11:32hanging out with us that's kind of the vibe over there before I replay this conversation with Ben demon from January I just wanted to say thank you guys so much so I do get a number of messages you're very kind Jeff at free outside.com you can shoot messages over that way but just recently I've gotten really nice messages from Tim Alice Carmen and it's usually on my outline of here it's like a notebook page and I write outlines for the intro and what I'm gonna talk to guests about and a lot of work goes into it I've grown a lot as a person I've gotten better and I always forget to tell you guys thank you or mention the people that reach out on the show because it just slips my mind we're doing amazing amazing things over here but a million of them so I really appreciate it thank you for the kind messages it's cool to see what a neat community that we have also I get a lot of questions so I got one on fixed time

12:38races and we actually put on a fixed time race if you're watching on YouTube sent I paused the recording and I sneezed and now I have a snott stain on my shirt so I am definitely human too aliens don't have snott like this I don't know why I'm sneezing it's like the the heart of not being six season but I got this question and I just wanted to encourage people to reach out or there's a pretty cool Strava Club as well where you can ask these types of questions and so fixed time races we put one on called Montana Meltdown I've won a few fixed time races I've raised a bunch of them and I think they're really good for working on pacing and eliminating a lot of variables so I talked earlier about having solutions or solution oriented mindset tools in your toolkit ways to solve all the problems eliminate the questions and a fixed time race it can either be your a race and go for a PR and something like

13:3912 hours or 100 mile or 24 hours usually fixed time races either have a mileage that you're going for or a time that you're going for and that's kind of how they're designed but what I really like about them is often most of the time they're like two or less miles in distance for each loop so you don't have to carry anything in your fueling strategy can be very set up and then what you're really focusing on is effort level and how you're pushing things so the question was pacing a fixed time race and just advice on how to do one my biggest thing is much like Zach Bitter set on the podcast a couple weeks ago was if it feels easy if it feels good back off even a little bit more so fixed time races are really one by being able to run late in the race or PRs are really gained by pacing yourself correctly and that's why I think they're such a valuable format to do and they're also really fun because in a normal race

14:40first place will take off and he will not see probably 99% of the other competitors for the entire race and that means all the crew and spectators and other runners won't see that runner either but in a fixed time race you're running loops you get to interact with everyone on the course you cheer for each other the camaraderie is really cool and you're you're like a team you're all out there pushing your your own limits maybe there's some competition between who's gonna who's gonna outlast who out there but it's just really fun in the camaraderie so my advice for a fixed time race would be to lean into the fun aspect converse with people and just enjoy being out there the best thing that a fixed time gives you is eliminating all these other things that you got to worry about you can have a good race plan ahead of time you can have soft flasks filled you can have everything ready to go as far as nutrition and then you just go for it and you execute the plan so when you do start the race

15:42to execute that plan really focus on being present out there every loop is just a loop you're just running it there's no into this race try to distance your mind from thinking about how many more you have to do or how many that you have done and just sink into that feeling that you just need to say grab a bottle and some nutrition every loop and keep going so that's my advice really focus on being present out there and put the effort into the plan ahead of time okay with that if you want to support the show there's a patreon patreon.com slash free outside I put a lot into this I hope you enjoy it I also coach about 20 athletes Allison my partner also coaches athletes as well so if you're looking for coaching you can reach out and with that this is a replay of a conversation I did with Ben demon but I think there's a lot of good reminders in here and especially that these things in life that mean a lot like for Ben winning UTMB

16:46they take a long time and that patience but confidence that the journey's worth it is key so here's Ben demon on the free outside podcast we have one of the coolest names in the sport we have Ben demon on here did you have any any nicknames growing up now you're kind of the speed demon but how did they use that name and soccer and other sports growing up yeah surely there's the colloquial demon used a lot on the soccer field and I see I suppose it's sort of stuck around you know even through my trailers I kind of I love the idea of adopting nicknames and stuff so the demon side of it stuck like the the sense of of having that like fire deep down inside still there and a lot do you use like a mantra or an alter ego in races to sort of capture that that demon I mean I've always been sort of a feline kind of dude like I like I

17:50was my first movie was the Lion King and my first Halloween outfit was Simba nonetheless so I've always kind of my dad he was born and raised in Nairobi Kenya he's Indian but he was raised in Kenya so we grew up with a lot of and he could mimic a lion's roar like super well and we love that we're kids so I've always been into the the cat kingdom you know lions cheetahs jungle cats all quite all kinds of stuff but when I'm out there on in the race like I don't know you you kind of lose your sense of like it does make sense to use a mantra here or not you're just like in the in the zone so I think from time to time if you caught my eyes in the right moment you might say Jesus he's he's inhabited by some wild cat at the moment yeah I'm big on on tiger tigers kind of my my favorite cat in that realm it's such a a regal looking beast and I think that's

18:51so relatable too because that mind wandering side or almost I mean less wandering of more of like it can be whatever you want it to be kind of at least for me came out of through hiking is that sort of where it started with you as well where you mean there's things to accomplish things to do but for chunks of time when it's just flowing you can do anything with your mind that you want yeah I mean I suppose that sort of I mean the the really opens up a big jar of worms there because when you're through hiking like I just remember my first experience I just briefly I did like the Appalachian show in 2012 and in 2016 ended the CDT and then after that I did some of them more off track stuff I did the Hey Duke I went to Nepal in 2018 I did like lots of small stuff you tried to just kept trying to accelerate keep pushing the limits a little bit further in terms of the extra how far I could I could push it but what I do notice is the

19:55first two weeks out there can be quite uncomfortable to be in your own head for for many hours and like that discomfort and that monkey mind spinning spinning is being getting like every time you check in the watch, checking the miles, checking all this stuff and then for you know it you just kind of like that that rougher half is sailed and you are just kind of inhabiting more calm and in present moment state of mind and I think that experience that clarity that comes with that it's very promising because you're like man I feel like I could do anything at this point like if I could really just walk from point 8 to point B by putting one foot and from the other like can't I just metaphorically do the same in life. Isn't it all like this? And of course, we learn that it's not all like that. And there's plenty of challenges in the real world that are not presented in the woods. But yeah, yeah, I think there is, that's really the intrinsic beauty of it for me was that mental clarity that came along with it.

20:55Yeah, totally. And we'll get into how great of an ultra runner you are. But I want to start with this. So 2012 for you, 2011 for me on the PCT, were you 20 then when you, you first through height? Let's see, I graduated high school in 2010. So yeah, I would have been 20. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and I was 20, 20 as well. And like no matter what came after, I felt like that was such a big thing I had to do to like grow up to realize like consequences of buy enough food, stay somewhere, don't run out of money or you don't get to do this thing. Do you feel like that was pretty impactful in your growth as well? Oh, it totally ruined me, man. Like totally, it completely ruined me. Yeah, I mean, I spend like my 20s bouncing around and often with like a deep state of existential dread from all of that because like I was only finding peace there. And like every time I was coming back,

21:55I just like, Jesus Christ, this is the worst man. And yeah, you got to scheme and scroll like cash and do all that and be an adult from time to time. But like being a dirt bag was so much more peeling. And you know, I like thankfully things worked out, but like there's definitely times when like I was like, man, like maybe I just totally screwed this one up. Like I put myself, I kept going deeper and deeper and then like couldn't make it back to shore, you know. So I mean, part I think is quite dangerous experiment to play, but I mean, I'm certainly I have no regrets and I would encourage people to give it a shot, but like back then, back then, like as if it's that long ago, back then like no phones, nothing like that. So they're actually wasn't sensitive totally detathering from everything. And that's a freaking awesome. And it's actually really hard to do that now. Yeah, there wasn't the phone apps and stuff weren't pervasive or even smartphones. And we used map and even a compass to get through

22:58some of the high Sierra. So it was very, it was probably one of the last periods where you could live like the early 1900s while out there on the trail. It was just so so different. And then this cascade of social media and connectedness came after that. And yeah, I felt the same like burden of such a dread on one side, which would have been society or conforming and then such a release or freedom on the other side. And of course, you keep choosing that one side. But yeah, I kept going further and further, giving up more months and time to the trail and eventually kind of found some balance. But how did you end up finding that balance or being grounded coming back to being part of society and also exploring the outdoors? Yeah, for a long time, I was a jealous of when I was running that cycle of basically just working to get enough money to adventure. As always, jealous people through higgers that meet you had like a great gig,

23:59like a dependable seasonal job. They could just lock it down, say the cash and they just knew it was waiting for them. Man, I just had to work just crazy shit jobs a lot. And I mean, I didn't mind that much. But at the end of the day, like it was really quite frustrating as I just can't make this, it's not sustainable at all. And on the CDT, my buddy Scorpion, he introduced me to his boss in Yellowstone National Park. They run this winter camp there to in cross-country ski trips, people to the gas, they come stay five, seven nights. And every day, this is in Canyon Village and every day, you go out and you cut track through the woods all over the place, hot springs, areas all over. And so I wound up finding that sweet gig where you can stack cash, actually have a cool job, stay fit, me cool people, all that stuff. But like, and that's what eventually enabled me to save enough to get into Paul and do like, what to me seemed like more or less a cranny achievement

25:00on combining a lot of the winter skills with the summer skills and stuff. And but what really shifted the game from it, before I'd found that job, I had to interview with Andrew Skirko to work with his guiding outfit, right? And he's like, you sound like you're just like in the adventure mode, like, I would love it. You sound like a great candidate, but we're looking for people who are really going to be dependable in the long run. And he was like, but like, have a blast while you're out there, really enjoy it. And enjoy before you meet a girl. Like, that's pretty sad. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's not gonna happen, you know? And like, literally, like, yeah, while I've tried finished, Nepal, I was in India kind of doing the same thing, just getting cutting across the Himalaya. And I just got so burnt out and tired. I just went up in this little village and I met this French girl before you know it. I was like, yeah, you know, I guess we just rent a motorcycle and see a lot of country as well. And then next thing, you know, I'm starting to run more and actually, you know, we're having kids. That was sort of like the closing line there

26:01was in Northern India and the Himalaya. And yeah, I guess, I guess like, for me, I was pretty, you wouldn't expect the chapters to come to closes like that. And I mean, life's not predictable in that way. And thankfully, you know, it's been really, it's been a really beautiful story after this point. Yeah, totally. So how did you get into trail running? I think it, well, specifically the story I read in Silverton's pretty, pretty intriguing. Yeah, so my first trail race had been the rut, 50K in, I don't know, it was like 2014, 15 maybe. But it was just my roommate was going and I was like, I'm going to go, I'm going to, I just to beat you, just to humiliate you that you've been training on and it train. And just to having fun, you know, and yeah, I had like this fun little sprint finish with another guy to like finish in eight hours or something. I was like, man, this is pretty fun. Like, I'm sure if I just like ran a bit, this would be way easier.

27:02And like that, your Killian Jornet was there. It was like all the Solomon Squad, European, shaved legs, tight outfits, thinklets, flashy colors, washes, the whole of the sunglasses, the whole deal. And I just like, I don't even, I was just like, this is a joke. Who are these guys? This is such a weird sport. And I had this real like, you know, laissez faire attitude to the whole thing, just show up and some soccer shorts and give it a rip. And it felt not that crazy to like maybe improve. But I had no idea about like endurance training and stuff. And so that was my first exposure and I would have never thought I would have been in the sport like that. Because to me, it just seemed like a bunch of guys in this culture that had nothing to do with what I was into. I was just more or less into like peak bagging and camping and Montana wasn't into, you know, into like running and performance or anything. And then I went back and did it the next year. And like I had just tied a couple more summits that summer and I ran two hours faster.

28:02And my body was like, dude, you know, like, you should maybe just do this a little more. And I was like, yeah, like, come on. I got hiking to do like I'd rather be out hiking. I'd rather rather be out trying to get to these like far away lakes and touch these summits that people aren't getting to. And so it was always like that just pushing off, pushing it off. And then in 2017, I ran a 50 mile, I decided that the Hayduc Trail, I was living five staff that I went to. I was shoveling snow, working at a butcher shop. And what else I was doing one other thing. And then like I just scrolled off cash away to get out there and do the Hayduc. Did that. And then after I did a chair race in Moab, and then I went up in Colorado, I hitchhiked Colorado and I did a couple hundred miles I did the high loan sum that year. I just got just jumped into it. I paced hard rock, then jumped into high loan sum. And again, I just basically using hiking fitness to get to a respectable level.

29:05But I mean, still not fast what I was doing. And there wasn't until like after Nepal and stuff that I went to do the diagonal day food in Reunion Islands, where I was like, I'm so sick of getting to the finish line just in this death march mode. Like I want to try to actually become a runner. And from 2018 on, I started training and accelerated from there. So it was like a graduate process, I'd say, just sort of interspersed with a lot of hiking. Yeah, do you know what you used to fuel during the rut, where you like threw hiker style basically? I, well at the time I was made, I had this little handmade pasta company in Boseman. So I was like the farmer's market still in handmade pasta. So I was literally just eating like tagly a tail, like handmade pasta in steak, like at the top of his loan peak. And that's it. No fuel. Like a smart water bottle or something too. Classic.

30:05Didn't, correct me if I'm wrong, the story was like for pacing hard rock, someone asked you if they needed a pacer and you were just like, I could pace you type of thing and it was Nick Curry or something and then you ended up pacing like 70 miles of hard rock or something like that. Yeah, so I mean, I was working, I sleepin' by the river in Silverton and working as a waiter at the Brown Bear Cafe, because I just knew I'd be there for a couple months. And like I was in that cafe and all these runners started to come to town. I had no idea like what this whole thing was. And the runners started showing up and started asking like, hey, do you know what I mean? They could pace. They like, they run this 10k, I think a week or two before. And I don't know, I think I got second or third or something and then I started talking more to the runners there. And then Nick, he was like, yeah, could you do this section and said sure and then it's other guy came in the cafe and he was looking for a pacer to go further like to just see how far we could go.

31:06And I knew he'd be slower than Nick so I was able to do the leg. I think it was maybe cutting him golf to Urey and then I did Urey to Katie, I think, with the other guy. It was a lot, yeah, I mean, if I remember, but it was fun to be a pacer man. That's a really great gig because you just, you're just there to spectate and eat and keep the other guy alive, kind of keep him moving. But Nick was fascinating to run with the guy who'd done all that stuff, you know, and he just, he talked to me all of his radical pacing strategies and stuff and I mean, I was just a student just listening, just tuning in. And yeah, so certainly that marked me significantly that year because I saw what it was really about, you know, I was like, I got this very, like up close picture, I saw a Kylian come down the mountain with his arm in his backpack because he broke, he popped his shoulder out or something and there was like lightning up ahead and there's, yeah, it was just a crazy scene, you know, and then to be a part of it afterwards was really special.

32:08So I think, yeah, that definitely pushed me hard in the running direction. Yeah, and was it just slowly over time you realized you might have a chance to have a career in this sport or how did that progress at first? Was it just like, I'm pretty good at this and then it eventually came maybe there is a way to make this my career? Yeah, well, I kind of, for whatever reason, I don't know, it works when it works, but I just assumed I could be great at it. I just assumed that it would just require me doing some work. I was naturally pretty fast growing up and even on the through-hikes and stuff, like if I just decided to push up the mountain, I could just crush. So I kind of had a self-belief point departure there and then when I came to France, my son was born, so we were in Australia, my wife and I, and working in Holiday Visa and we found out she was pregnant

33:12and it was COVID times. So we sent her back to France while the flights was still open. I kept working in Australia to save some dough. When I arrived, I was not allowed to work in France. Just like, first year, no working. Great, so I just watched the kid, but I was like, man, what am I gonna do? I don't speak the language. Like I can't just be a ski guide here, like all that requires doing all of their procedures. They're, you know, and it's like, I have no options. I have no, I have like jobless here with a new board kid and like, this is not good. And I like it, right? Like, that's possible. Maybe it's feasible. And so I started just running local races and I just want them all. And then when my level wasn't crazy, it wasn't crazy. It was just solid at like a local level and then I just kept kind of chipping away at it. And like my actual, I'd say my talent level, like it just kept pushing up year over year.

34:14So I had like a little bit of runway, like my wife, she worked as a nurse for two years while I was just watching the kid in training and training. I was just running, you know? And really hungry for results though, like really, like I would show up at local races just with just dead eyes, just ready to just run train on everybody. I had a real sense of purpose to be there. I was like, I'm gonna win that Wheel of Cheese, man. That Wheel of Cheese is mine. So it was a lot of that. There was a push from being a new parent. There's a push with doing something with your life, but there was also a plenty, there was a reservoir of talent for sure there. Yeah, no kidding. And so it just progressed and then did you go after bigger, bigger races and was there prize money eventually and did it was your partner on board with this endeavor to along the way? Yeah, so I did the Diagon de Fou again and I went back in 2022.

35:15Yeah, I got on the podium there and I beat like it was cool because we had cameras around us the whole time, Helikopters, because it's with Jimi Encarnier and Cornie de Walter. Cornie ran an insane race there. I got to run a lot with her and I had to see like when Cornie's on fire, manage just, it's so cool man. It's just insane to see. Like there's this moment, we still had two huge climbs left, a whole marathon to go and she's like, let's get to the finish line. Like just like, I was like, what are you talking, finish line? We still have like eight hours out of here. This is insane. But you can see the energy just firing off of her was crazy and totally use that later in the race because when I decided I was gonna go, I was like, I'm just gonna go with that same wide eyed enthusiasm and when I went, I wound up getting third and put a good gap onto her and Juma. And I thought after that, I was gonna get sponsored. I was like, okay, surely with all of that media attention, the son known athlete completely unsponsored, like I'm gonna get it.

36:16I even tried to do an interview in French after, like I was like, come on, like this is gonna happen. And no, nothing man. Like I got like some ambassador deal offers, you know? And the hard part is you don't know what to do when you're in that situation as an amateur athlete. You don't know, like do you just take the ambassador stuff and run with it? Like do you present as a pro until it happens? You fake it, you make it, you do what you do? You know, and that kind of like aggravated me a bit because it was like seeing people, I didn't know if they had pro deals or not, but I was like if that guy's getting a pro deal and surely like I should as well. And like it's like nothing is deserved. Like you just, you do certainly need to just win races and you will get noticed and you will get a sponsorship. And that's just how I wound up doing it. It's like the next year I was like fine, no sponsorship, no problem. I'm gonna smack all these races next year. I'm full of confidence. And that's exactly what I did. And so I, you know, Hoka signed me

37:16and then that same year because I just signed a contract at the end of the year with Hoka, they just wanted to lock me in case I got a crazy UTMB result. Like they were just like, well, I'm just signing them. And then, but I failed UTMB that year. And then, but A6 later after that, I did a podium behind John Albin and Francesco Pupi at the Tompsey A. And I mean like A6 was like, hey, this guy's got clearly, got plenty of, he can run long, he run short, he can do this stuff, let's put him on the team. And then they really, yeah, working with them has changed my life. So that was sort of how it worked. But I did it by force alone. I didn't do it by collecting Instagram followers. I didn't do it by shaking hands. I just did it by showing up to races with the Savage Attitude and putting it on online. And then from the partner perspective, yeah, my wife, she was on board. Like she didn't necessarily, we never taught, whenever Sarah on the dinner table, like talking about a dream.

38:18Like she was just like, what's the plan tomorrow? Okay, so I'll pick you, you're gonna watch him so then and then I come, like it was just like very, boom, boom, boom, let band do his thing. And like hopefully we can, hopefully it'll work out. And she went to a lot of those races at the beginning to crew and to do all that stuff. So she was obviously vital part of it. And like without her, it wouldn't have happened. So that was awesome. Totally. Was it hard racing in Europe and trying to make a name for yourself there when, I mean, you're relatively new over there anyways. And it's not your native culture and stuff. Were there a lot of ancillary things making it difficult to pull it off as well? Yeah, I don't know like, maybe there's a little anti-American bias and like in France, it's not necessarily anti-American. There's more like French to celebrate the French. Fair enough. Totally. Same way with being a state, some sure.

39:18Like I just didn't think too much about it. I mean, I just used it as fuel to the fire. If I got in and aggravated with this situation or seeing stuff happen, but I just didn't focus too much on other people as well. You'd hear about it, you'd see it, but I just made it about just make yourself uneniable. And then you don't have to worry. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know what to say. I just forced the door down, man. Yeah. Well, now it feels like you get discounted because you're only racing in Europe from the opposite side over here almost on like contention on, does it feel like, did you feel that as well? I guess. Maybe, but maybe it's justified. You know, because it's the same, dude, but I'm ready to just run the same pattern over there too. So, yeah, maybe like, maybe you should be discounted until you produce health, right?

40:20I think that's, you might as well just undersell over deliver in life. And I believe in myself to execute races wherever they are. So, I think my skill set is one of the things that makes me a good runner, I think is I have a very well-rounded skill set. So, there's no particular challenge to me to go run some of the American Desert races or back east or wherever. Like, I feel like I could put myself in the right shape to nail the race. So, but that's just talk and talk's cheap. So, I said, like, earlier, I would love to come race after UTMB in America this year. And I think I have to, like, I have a deep desire to, but also, I think, yeah, you're right. Like, in order to verify all this information, I actually have to do it. So, let's just make it happen. Yeah. I mean, is Western states feel like

41:23is big of a draw while living over there where UTMB? And I mean, numerous races dominate the, I guess, the culture a lot more than things over here in the states is it feel like a lot smaller of a deal than maybe it does where it is like the super bowl over here in America. It feels like, there's certainly eyes on the race, and it's, but it's not as big of a deal as it is in America. I think I'm getting complete. I think I have to go do it though now. So, I don't really want to, it's not like a race that seems that cool, but maybe that'll offend somebody, but it's just, it doesn't seem that interesting, you know, but I'd also all go do it and charge it well. I suppose the challenge most of your pants do faces how to get this specificity right because here you just do a lot of elevation gain

42:24and our winters are, you know, like I ski a lot in the winter and stuff. So, I would definitely have to change the training patterns and then find a way to get this specificity right and probably come stay in the climate for a bit beforehand, but I think it's feasible to do it pretty well like that. And I like, yeah, I guess you kind of get pinned into, the way I'm sure, you know, I don't know, like, like if you wanna be called one of the great ultra-unters, then you need to go test yourself on these different grounds. It was never really my intention to do that, but at this point, like it comes with the territory, like this is my zone that I'm pushing now and like we have to kind of explore those regions in order to do it. But I thought we were on, I thought we were talking about Thurrayak today. That's what I was pretty excited about. Yeah, we're mostly talking about Thurrayak. I did just get the funny comment recently

43:24that was like California trails are less technical than European roads. So that was a fun one speaking of specificity, I guess. But yeah, let's go back. I think I'm really interested in when you think of kind of the Thurrayaking and then ending up like Heydook and then eventually Nepal, was it just out of necessity or your personality that it felt like it was bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger kind of thing? It feels like each one was a stepping stone to the next. Yeah, it was. It was really was a stepping stone. And when I did, because when I started the CDT, I started with just a bunch of paper maps in the compass, even though I had a smartphone, I could have put God hook on the phone, I could have done it. I was like, I'm gonna do this because I wanna learn. I want this muscle to be activated in my brain. I wanna figure this out. And I did, I did New Mexico with paper maps and I got all screwed up a bunch of times.

44:26I was the first one out there and started way too early, ran into snow, the whole deal. And even early on, I got a little confused from time to time but I actually started to develop that muscle in your brain, that point snorf, that figure stuff out. And that was so cool to see. Very exhausting, but in kind of scary at times, but really cool. I remember doing the, what's that river? The Hila River with the maps. Hila, yep. Like at the beginning, I was counting the bends. I was like, dude, you can't count the bend. Like you can't count the fords and the bends. You're gonna be spending all this time, do it. You just need to lock in, pay attention to features around you. Like look at the map for the prominent stuff and just be in the moment. Like you can't count the bends and sure enough. Like that's what, and then by like, how am I gonna know when to leave? Like how, when am I gonna know it? But as soon as you see it, you're like, that's it. I gotta exit through there. There's no other way. Like that's it. And you look at the maps, you start figuring out, yeah, for sure. But that sort of experience of being on the land, like that was amazing, man.

45:29And then eventually in the CDT, I brought the maps on the phone. And, but I still kept the paper maps for the alternates. You know, I was in the, I loved doing some of the alternates on the CDT. And then the Hey Duke, I was doing, I just wanted to take that navigation a bit. I wanted to try to like get to know the desert a bit. I wanted to be in like this off trail mode a bit. And then after that, yeah, I'd started like at my, my winter stuff was leading me to be more interested in being a technical snow and ice terrain. And so yeah, doors kept opening further and further down the rabbit hole for me. And hiking, I mean, it can get pretty crazy. Like, yeah, it's not just walking. No, yeah, obviously like, but what's cool is like, I was proud that my first through hike was the, the Appalachian Trail and stuff. And I was a total newbie out there as carrying heavy stuff. I was doing relatively small mileage. But I was really just enjoying being in the woods

46:31and just like that whole side of things. But for sure, like there, I have to have a progression in my life. It's the same with the running. It's the same with the hiking as well. Like I have to just keep going it, go and push the level, push the level. Yeah. Does you have a trail name? Yeah, on the AT, I was Jungle Cat. And then on the CDT, I was Cheetah. This episode is brought to you by John G. The Trail Tights have won so many awards. So many, I can't even count them. And I won't try because I'd have to open a new tab to Google. How many awards have the John G Trail Tights won? But just trust me. Pick up a pair of their great, all their products are good. They're big on pockets, which I've actually ranted about before. And as someone who's worn a number of women's specific clothing, like dresses, I can play in that women's specific clothing doesn't have pockets. Well, that is no more. Enter John G. Check them out. Tell them I sent you. I think Code Free Outside still works, but I actually don't know.

47:31So somebody test that and we'll go from there. Oh, nice. They kind of, even the progression of your trail name from Jungle Cat to Cheetah. Sure. And then, so what was, what was Nepal like? And how did you plan that? Because I think a lot of thru hikers, or especially in the US, or Europe, peak out and don't hit that level. Like you ascended to that level of biggest baddest, how am I going to do this? That's next level thru hiking. Yeah, I just saw some images. I was like, I have to see the Himalaya. Now I'm going to see the Himalaya. I should just use this thing that I already do. So you know, I should use this tool, use this toolbox to really experience it to the fullest. So started doing my research and then found all the great Himalayan trail resources and contacted Robin Bustetti who'd initiated a lot of those maps and stuff. And then like basically just started opening channels to communication up with people who'd done it.

48:34Also this guy Trevor, a box he did a year before me, Solo. He died in a fatal, a base jump, or a wingsuit accident, like think two years ago. He kept pushing the limits. And but so I just try to get as much information as possible to put together a project plan. And because I was like, you have to have a plan. You can't just go there and just give it a shot. And then I also wanted some of my clients from Yellowstone. They knew a guy in Nepal who could help with permits and stuff. So I'd really created this. But I'd started well in advance. You know, I started maybe well in advance, but I started planning in, yeah, probably December, you know. So three while working, just planning all the time. And then I think I went out there in March or April to start. And like it's, it is glorious. And there's some moments I'll never forget. But it's also covered in red tape. And it's also like heinous the amount of just silly rules

49:38that you have to follow it or not follow and then try to get away. Because in my case, in those, the sectors where you have to have a guide, there's police checkpoints. And there's a number of regions where you have to have a guide or you have to be in a group. And I was by myself. So with my permitting guy, he was like, we can bullshit some of these by using other people's passports to pretend that you are in a group. But these people got sick and got to get turned around. But in order to do that, like, I don't know if I can trust you. You need to take a guide for two weeks. So take a guide for two weeks. And I was like, give me somebody you can move, man. Like I'm telling you what, we're moving every day. And he's like, I got just the guy. And he was like, well, we're starting conjuring a jungle. We'll get to Everest before two weeks. He's like, that's one month. And I was like, it's two weeks. That's just what's happening. This guy, he just followed me for several weeks.

50:39And he'd followed me, but we had great, he really helped me figure out how to talk to locals when I was by myself, right? He gave me the customs. He really enlightened me as to all the customs such that when he was gone, I could get into all of these very tiny, minute little hamlets all over the place in the pool and get what I need and make sure I don't scare them and make sure people get paid and make sure people are respected. And they able to negotiate basic prices and figure out how much stuff costs and he really helped me just get the lay of the land. So it was super important for me to have that experience. And then a lot of it was really, I did duck a number of police checkpoints. I had to move in the night. I had a horrible weather basically the whole time. I had some very sketchy moments at high altitude. So I mean, it was a properly dissociating experience. I was not at ease at all for the, was it 50 or 60 days I was out there?

51:43I was not at ease for one day. Every day was terrible. Like, down low is super hot and leeches and bushwhacking and like too many people and cars and stuff. And then up high, you're like confronting the elements and trying to figure out passes and landslides, new landslides and how to get over these glaciers and, you know, just like, just, it's just hectic and was one of those things where it was more, just me pushing to get the thing done then really feeling like, oh, this is cool. This is, this is why I love doing this. It's just like, no, we're just going to get to the freaking end. Like, this is a battle one day after the next. Yeah, was there a particularly scary or intense or difficult story you got as an example? Well, even like from, from with a guide like, we were going over this pass called the Lumba Sumba and that's like around, I think it's not even 6,000 meters.

52:43But we were getting into these, these everyday storm cycles that comes with the monsoon and monsoon to come way in advance. But it's not like you can do, right? You just got to go. So we're going up this pass and I'm like, we need to get over today. And he's like, not happening today. I'm like, we're getting over today. And he started with the altitude and the snow that was getting higher and higher. He was like, he was falling behind, falling behind. But what's crazy in MLA is how fast the weather rolls up and just when it rolls at your rolls, you up. You're just gone. You're in the weather. So fast. So we get up to around 5,000 meters and he's not there anymore. Like I turn back, I'm just seeing cloud and I've got snow on post-holing above the knees. Very cold, very windy, no visibility. And I'm like, I got to find him. My guide is missing an action. So I start retracing my post-holes. What you're getting windswept very quickly, I'm starting to even miss my post-holes. They're getting covered.

53:43And the weather got very intense. And I eventually found him and his leg was wedged in some rock. He'd post-holed through the snow and got his legs stuck in some rocks. And so his leg, I'm thinking he's got a broken leg. And he's stuck up here and he does not have enough layers. Just stay there like that. And so I start digging him out, digging him out, and then we get him. And fortunately, his leg was bruised and stuff. But he lost his shoe. His shoe had gone through the marine and he tried to wet, get his foot out, and so his shoe was gone. And so I took one of my plastic bags, put her on his shoe, put some more socks on top of that. And then I'm like, we're just going to get to this, because we're on a pretty steep pitch. It's like, let's get up to a plateau. And we're going to make camp. I can get this tent up. I can do it. I believe it. We'll find ways to be see rocks, and we'll use the rocks, to just make this thing bother, because I was using Z-Packs, like the tall one, this tall single one. And anyway, so that's what we did.

54:44We got up to this little plateau, still no visibility, crazy weather. And I just put the tent on my chest, get in there. I just stuck him in. I started getting this thing up, putting all the rocks around, getting everything weighed down and tight. And I just jumped in there. I was having a blast at that point. This is sick. But he was not. He was not in good time at all. He wanted to just be home with his family. And I felt terrible that I put him in the situation where I could have really heard himself and been in there. So we get in there. I start cooking up noodles. I have a little bottle of rum with me, where I like hitting the rum, smoking cigarettes, like eating noodles. Having a good time. And like we're in this tiny tent, just curled up all night. Like that, it got so cold, man. Like we were just so, we were completely frozen in the morning. Poor frost all through the tent. We just pop out. Clouds are gone. And we just did this epic view of the Himalaya covered in fresh snow everywhere. And this is amazing. So we went over the pass and got down. But these are like the, yeah, that's a fun example of how

55:47fast weather moves in. How simultaneously dangerous and glorious the Himalaya are. Did you feel like that was the guide experience for a lot of it on like it wasn't helping or necessary for your experience, but it felt as almost like had to check a box at times for that kind of thing. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. He was, he didn't. The only thing he would do was procure that he was very good as procuring food with the locals and squaring away how much stuff cost. For those two weeks, he just managed all the communication side. And I just got to chill out every time I took up the people's random houses, asleep and people's barns and stuff. He just like go lay there and chill. And after that, I had to then take on that responsibility. And then that's like a whole nother layer to it. It's like, oh, man, I had to like talk to this little little lady and she doesn't speak English. And I hope I don't scare her. And like, you know, because a lot of people they see me. And I was just like, no, like whatever you're selling,

56:49I don't want it, you know, kind of attitude. Nice airs and stuff. So a lot of people just like really confused what I was doing out there. And, but so he wasn't serving his guy, his principal guy, duties, but he was serving a very important bridge for me to make that connection with them. And at least have some ability to communicate, like just basic numbers, hello, goodbyes, like sort of some of the basic Buddhist customs that you don't do something completely ass and nine, you know, stuff like that. And but afterwards, yeah, I made for some cool storytelling and I was really grateful for the experience. But certainly when you go out there, if there's pretend people were potentially interested, I don't know how, like it's suit, I don't know how to do it correctly. Like I don't think there is, you either have to do it as a group and bring the bring the guides along for certain sections and have a lot of cash ready to deploy it all that in the plan a year in advance. Or you got to go lower and renegade and you don't have to

57:52go as renegade because if you're lower, you can avoid some of the sections where you're you're required to have a guide. Or you do a bit like me stay high and you just stay renegade. Mm hmm. How, how would you resupply or how long was it between places to get more food? Like did you have to completely adopt the, I guess, whatever you could get strategy out there? Yeah, that's not that big of a problem actually. That's cool because I think the longest haul I would do is like two days. Yeah. And then you just roll, like they have these, it's convenience stores kind of push it, like you can imagine an espresso hut somewhere in the middle of the Himalayan, but instead they just got dry noodles and chocolate. And so you just try noodles and chocolate. And you go through people's houses sometimes people are hanging little cubes of dried cheese or, or yak jerky, or whatever. And you just like, you just point and ask it or bread or people sometimes the host was just boiled eggs for you or things like that.

58:53So what I had, I had like 7,000 USD converted into rupees stuffed into dirty socks in my backpack. And would just peel off, you know, every morning put a little stash in my pocket and make sure nobody saw what was going on. But you just get to have plenty of dry Tinder. And then you have to be very opportunist with the resupplies. That piece is pretty manageable. Yeah, what does yak jerky taste like? It's not bad. And the suggested recipe for that is you, you collect some stinging nettles which are abundant. And you put, you boil those up and then you add the yak, the dried yak jerky into that and you got yourself a, a yak in nettle soup, which is actually delicious. Okay, yeah, you were tried all kinds of things. And so as this trip wound down, did you feel content kind of with your through hiking progression or what was kind of the, how did it feel at the end of that compared to your previous

59:54tracks? Yeah, well, it felt, I felt totally, I felt like a bit discombobulated and discontent and confused. And I felt not good finishing. I was like, that was just a bit much like the whole, you know, it's not just not, you know, just presented with the physical with the topography. It's all that other side to it, the cultural and the, the rules based stuff, which was really tough to deal with and the language barriers. And I was like, I'm pretty good on that. I mean, for me, like I was sort of, as you know, living in Montana, I was like the only other frontier is you go to Alaska after. And obviously, this plenty to do up there. And I was in the back of my mind like, okay, well, I guess I'd be ready for Alaska trip at this point. That didn't manifest or anything. But yeah, I think it was like an important progression. It was also a good way to just say, hey, that's good. Like let's, let's take a bit of a chill pill. Let's string together some fun like more three or four day

1:00:55adventures than let's go for across this country you never been to before. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of feel like I hit some level of that and then kind of just, yeah, the whole Montana to Alaska, like they do Alaska, but I'm just like content here doing, repeating some of the backpacking trips I'll do for a long weekend. It's, it's like this is my activity I enjoy. But that like boundless exploration pushed the envelope of my 20s just doesn't quite exist the same. I don't, I don't know, I spent, did like an 8,000 mile one and a 7,000 mile adventure. And it was just like, I think I'm good. Like I don't need to try to go longer, try to sacrifice my life more. Now it's like what fits into my life because it's pretty good. I don't know. Do you, are you kind of at that point in life too? Yeah. I mean, I think with the family, everything shifted like so much, but like where is your, what are your like top three mountain ranges to go to

1:01:57Montana these days? Oh, I mean, I think the Galton Crest Trail is like one of the most beautiful 40 miles of trail. And it's like 30 minutes away. The tobacco roots, I like the mountains where or the gravities, the Madison range, anything within like an hour and a half drive where not very many people go and you just like find the true crest. You follow it as much as you can. You, you stop you, you just say I'm what you're something like you just don't even have to turn your watch on and be, be hold into anyone seeing what you even did with your day. I think that is what fills my cup as much as anything. And of course have to do the training and run and race and stuff. But, but those adventures where I just get to be back to that 2011 version of like, this is just for me. There's no need for a hike to be on Strava. I could go 10 miles or I could go 40 miles. But that is what I love and that is what Montana offers.

1:02:58And I think that's just the benefit of knowing for 15 years now what I really love and it's doing that. And I can do that in an overnight. I could do it in a longer through height, but I don't have to leave for nine months and blow up my life like I used to. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious once you kind of are good after the Nepal trip, are you looking for further challenges? Because personally, I kind of shifted into looking at FKTs or trail running or fast packing was becoming a thing in Vogue. Did you have that same thought or were you fine without a challenge for a while? No, I was, I mean, I'm quite, I'm a bit jealous that you, uh, you saw the writing on the wall a bit with the speed and stuff on the long, I just never even considered it. Like I never considered that maybe I should go fast. I just, I did some, some epic days on the CDT, but I had no intention of getting it done as fast as possible. I was just like, yeah, maybe I'll do 60 tomorrow and just see how it goes.

1:04:02And like, yeah, that was cool. I'll do it again next week, maybe or maybe not. I don't care. But like you, you really tuned in and found a bit of a hard streak with all that and like it sounds so fun. That's, so I'm just speaking for a part of jealousy because it really sounds super engaging, but my mind went to the 100 mile. I was like, let's, let's get, let's get into the 100 miles. Cause as you know, like you get the dose, uh, but you just get it in this very tame environment. Like you get some, the safety rails on those sides, you go really push your limits for a while and, um, but you're not, you know, you're not sacrificing, uh, this, you're not taking this huge step into the unknown. You're just taking a small step in the unknown. Most of that's just in here, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah, the 100 mile thing became interesting. It seemed sexy to me to run 100, 100 miles fast. And, um, I thought like in the sport of all training, I was like, that's, that's got to be the only cool thing in the sport is running 100 miles right. You know, the rest of the stuff like, come on, ultra, we have a 50 K ultra.

1:05:05Like, come on. That's three hours. Please, uh, so to me, it was 100 miles, it was 100 miles or, or, or die. And, um, so when, uh, I met my wife in Ladakh, India, uh, and we motorcycle around and stuff. She was saying, oh, I'm going to go back to work in reunion island. And I, I'd remembered hearing, I think maybe Wom is they talk about racing down there or something. And what he liked DNA after something. I think there's race, which is a, yeah, it's very well known in France, like, Dianne Diffu, everybody knows this one. And so I contacted the organization and they, they have some thoughts for international athletes, like, just ready to deploy. And I'm like, yeah, you don't have any resume, but like, sure, come join the party. And so I had like six weeks and I was in the Himalayas, like, I should train. I'm just going to, every day I'm just going to do a bunch of virt and, uh, we were in more Eastern part of that point. We were in Darjeeling and, um, I was like, you, why don't you just go, cause you want to do temples and all this stuff. I was like, I just want to do virt and, uh, she was like, okay, I'm going to leave

1:06:08you here for three weeks and we'll, we'll meet at you'll come back down south and we'll meet up. That was like, perfect. So I was staying at his little house, like, every morning, like, you know, these are less than 10 bucks a day for full room and board and like, food and everything. And, um, so I would have an omelet and then I would just run down the tea fields and then run up and down, like, just go on all these adventures all over the place and it's having a blast doing it. But I was just still pretty much hiking with so steep and, um, anyways, like, I just did that for a couple of weeks and showed up in La Chine, and I like, I knew as I need to put a spreadsheet together, right? But like, how fast am I going to do this? All right. So what we should do is we'll do three, three different variations. Option A, I win the race. Option B, we do like 30 some hours. Option B is, I'm, I'm actually, I have no idea what I'm doing and this is going to take me two days. And, uh, option A was very soon visibly not going to happen. And then, but B became more and more reasonable and so like, I just had,

1:07:13like, pretty good experience of chugging around out there. Having the highs and lows of a very international rate, like, you've got thousands of runners out there. You got this whole environment and, and it's like, you feel like the atmosphere and everything. But like I said, like, when I left, I was like, if I'm coming back to this, I'm doing it right. Like I just, you know, you gotta, if you want to, if you want to be at the top, you got to, you gotta, at least take it seriously. And even like a week after that, like I was all a handicap for a week. And then a week later, I was like on the track. I was like, I'm, I'm a runner now. I run on the track. Like let's make this happen. And I really stuck to it, man. I just got really deep into reading all of the literature I could about in endurance sport about all this stuff. And I started tuning into more of what's going on in the sport. And I started dreaming like, okay, I want to do this one and this one. And so yeah, I kind of, and once, once I was with Ophelia, I was like, I'm not going to just leave her like for six months. I'm just not going to do that.

1:08:13So I really found, I'd really found it a way for me to, to maintain that, that, that sense of like I'm still moving like that every day. And I'm doing something for purpose with my body. I'm still going to get an adventure, but I'm not doing it in the old school way. Yeah, we have a very similar path because it was like I moved to Montana. And it was just like, wow, I really like these people in this community. I don't want to just disappear from it. There's such just like all my friends here, run in the sense that we just go explore mountains for fun. Like that's the best. And so it was like, how do I get that side that's a little more intense and radical? That was in my 20s and it was like, I can just go do something way too fast out there and push myself. And then I'll just come back to my life in Montana and be a part of it. But it was, it just started very organically kind of the same thing on like bring up that,

1:09:17like hear about that race. And it's like, I want to do it. I think I heard about Nolan's 14. And it was like, well, I want to do that. I'm a through hiker. So I did that in the middle of the CDT South. And it was like, I finished in 59 hours and 60 hours. It's like they cut off to be an official finisher. And so it was like, okay, I can do this. I don't have any of the gear and where the running shorts like these guys, but it was like open the door to it's possible to do this sport that's basically the same just a little different. And then it led to FKTs for me and eventually more into the ultra running space. But I think that's a necessary thing in this through hiking world of like, what's the end game? You can't through hike for 50 years in a row. You have to find that other thing that can treat like we're just we're community based people. We're relationship people and through hiking kind of demolishes a lot of that ability to keep some of those those relationships.

1:10:22Yeah, but then that really does pose the question, why is it so addictive? Like if it's not actually servicing what we intrinsically need as people, which is like you're saying, like the sense of community, prostrating as a community working together, building families, building, whatever, like really like, hominizing to a certain extent. Why is it such an, why does it, why is there like this addictive like lone wolf thing to like, what is that? Yeah, I think it is a community in itself, but one that just like resets every year or something like when you're in it, you love it. And when you're out of it or it's past, you're looking forward to getting back into it. But you like to talk to people out there? Um, not, not a ton. I don't know. Yeah, I don't like to talk to people. Oh, I was a through I was pretty damn reserved. I just like blow through people.

1:11:23They'd have to earn my trust, you know, I'd have to see them a couple times and I have to see how the movie I was like, oh, yeah, that's that. Okay, they know how to hike like I'd have to have this experience or be in the right place, the right time, like, and then once you've hit those, those, those little, those moments that like these chemical moments where you, you need somebody at the right moment, you're like, holy shit, like we could be best friends. So the rest of our lives basically like we have so much in common in this like, it'll little atomic moment in the universe. Um, and like some of those relations, those, those moments I had meeting, basic, practically strangers in the woods, like still some of the most powerful stuff I've ever, I've ever had my entire life, you know, and even if those relationships, they go nowhere after even if they don't go anywhere the next week, but like in the brain, they're like, they're, they're, they're the fables, you know, the stuff that these are stories, you keep telling yourself. Totally. And I think you have such a concrete goal that things in your life all contribute to that, that that's what's probably the addicting part of it is you're working towards something too big

1:12:23to comprehend and even a hundred mile air isn't long enough for the duration isn't long enough to have that same feeling where your mind can't comprehend doing 2000 miles, but you just have this blind trust that you're going to do that, that adventure, no matter what it is. And I think that's the addicting part of you see like measurable progress every day towards a goal that's incomprehensible. And then when you achieve it, you've like leveled up your, your belief in yourself in so many different ways. And that's the addicting part. But I have a question. So when you were on the AT, did you were you, was your brain like buzzing all day long or were you actually like, especially towards that back half for were you in that state of mind where you were, you were like very stimulated and like intense or were you kind of like really lost the win and like your own momentum and stuff like like how, how like tuned up were you because that, that like that tuned up feeling is like really addictive to you like crushing miles and you're

1:13:27feeling good, but like that's also not very sustainable. Like what what state of mind was a few there? Yeah, I would say the last two weeks, a large part of them were very tuned up. And then the strangest thing happened where maybe 30, 48 hours to go when it was like, okay, I'm going to get this by a few hours. Then that tuned up feeling disappeared and it was just like everything I could do to just move forward because like it wasn't a question, a mystery or unknown. It was sort of like just put in the monotonous effort and it'll be over. And that was like it was a really sad period because for especially the white mountains when it's so technical and you're moving to the terrain and you're meant you're just like you have to be flowing and trusting what your legs can handle so that tomorrow isn't ruined. Like that is the fun part when everything is interconnected and flows into the next and like yeah, even just what you're eating and how much and and then you'd hit those adversity periods and

1:14:31then it's like you've never felt more brain power than when you got to solve like this complex problem of some gear piece went wrong or something happened or you're behind schedule and then you solve it and you just you just have more confidence in yourself. But yeah, I would say it was about two thirds of like flow. This is amazing. Just trust what my body can do and then a couple weeks of like tuned up competitive when you're you're like on the start line of your favorite race and excited about going and that's how it was and then it just you'd think it ends at the end but it ended when it was like I know I'm going to get this but like there's no mystery there's no I'm not competitive in the mind just goes to like who cares if I'm 30 minutes slower at this point it's still going to be the record that was I'd never experienced that that type of mental like we're good type of moment before the actual finish of something it was there's some of the hardest I fought mentally just to be like no don't sleep for four hours

1:15:36this last night just get up and get moving like you you can do this you care but your body is so ready to be done. Mac you're mad dude that's that sounds so cool that sounds amazing. Do you have what's worse? You think it would work to do like a team FKT on that. Do you think that would be that or a word like you if you like I guess to be almost impossible to find somebody who's got equal ability as you wouldn't it. Yeah that is the trick I know people have done it on like the Colorado trail but that's a quarter of the length. Yeah I mean that's like that's that's that's a that's the weekend warrior shit yeah yeah I guess you'd be almost impossible because the the foot problems and somebody always going to have a problem and then just to be able to push yourself with the right moment. Yeah I suppose it really is it's it's weird that it would be a you'd think that given that humans are really going to teamwork that that would if if the human migrate if what makes us good through Ikers is like this nascent

1:16:40ability to migrate long distances as early humans right then we would have done that in packs or groups to like scout out long ways long ways ahead there would have been there wouldn't have been a guy right like I'll do it you know I'll be the penguin I'll go out like I'll see the vistas on the beyond and then come back at our core would have always been multiples. Yeah yeah I think it wouldn't work for my personality I it's just such an emotional roller coaster out there that I wouldn't feel confident navigating that with someone else I think that it's I'd done it so many times now that I know what's going to happen I just like if someone has a blister and has to stop like what I have pangs of anger because now we're slowing down like all those little things present more complications and that's why I like the self-supported style anyways of if something goes wrong it's because I messed up or something that I have to solve I relying on other people just feels like

1:17:45it adds so many different layers and dimensions but you've raced right you've raced on your my own yeah yeah but you so you've had the phenomena being around people and then like kind of surpassing where you're at by just following somebody else's feet right yeah I think yeah very much so it's such a I don't know I have to physically prepare or mentally prepare myself going into it to just let go physically a bit needing to be responsible for like every turn having the right stuff from crew at an aid station like it it takes more mental prep at this point for a race where I'm relying on others than just trusting 40,000 miles of instincts relying on myself so yeah it is a very unique dynamic garage room gear is another sponsor they support small businesses they are a platform to buy outdoor gear from small businesses and larger businesses but a lot of small businesses just go check out the freeze dried meal options on there you can find anything for any dietary

1:18:48restrictions that you have you can also get sleeping bags tense tracking poles shoe socks shirts alpha direct hoodies are great for ultra runners especially the cold overnight this time of year so check them out garagero gear.com I'mic I wonder where like the limit is then on that like to what extent does it help to have somebody around you versus when does when does being solo make the most sense I don't know like because I totally agree I would be the same I think if I went after FKG I think I would always be able to get more out of myself on a multi-month mission than I would be able but I know like on a seven hour mission I'm gonna be much better if I'm surrounded by like minded individuals who are pushing really hard but I guess that sort of like verges into like where do efforts start to start to find that awesome top of sustainability like if if you'd arrived at springer and like somehow or another the mountains and the Appalachians had kind of reconformed and like you'd had another 160 miles to go and you

1:19:50didn't know it until you arrived your body would have figured out a way to get there right like like totally united at first 20 but like I'm so broken emotionally but then you would have already been right on that like line of like I'm in this this sustainable movement rhythm now yeah totally I mean that's what like that's the basis of all these I mean I'm not a premier athlete my talent is a certain level and then I maximize that by so much mental work or preparation for this adversity and it's that bounce back of these little things that go wrong that is where I do so well like my biggest day is could be far surpassed by other people who do these records but the ability to string together near my best every single day is really really all I've got and I think that's the main thing of yeah if there is that okay you've got 200 miles it'd be like okay I already know strategies mentally to get myself up for this 200 miles it'd be like just a quick

1:20:57reset okay what's the math how many days all right we're back into the mode here and we're just gonna hang on to experience and then we're gonna start piecing together and finding that mental joy in this new challenge and I think that's the the really fun part but it's not dissimilar like you see that in the running world too even like pacer rate pacer it races versus not having pacer's I think that's such a dynamic that for some reason is not talked about very much but it is such a crutch of just like for different personalities if you're someone who loves affirmation like you've got an affirmation machine right next to you and if you're and if you you don't have a pacer then you've got to come up with it yourself I think I think pacer is more mentally than anything or such such a big part of ultra running that I don't know we act like it's in a big difference but I think it's huge yeah I mean with striking totally I mean it does build robust

1:22:00humans like it's such a cool thing I mean I I don't know like before that I wasn't a wasn't much much a man of the woods or anything like that and really altered my own like self-reliance and I think in racing like I fall back on that frequently because a matter how fast I get there's always a point in these long races where I'm totally broken and like I it doesn't look like it anymore really like I what's crazy is like when I saw some of these clips of me at the end of you TMV I remember how it felt and I remember seeing I see I'm like you don't look that bad like you look tired but it's not that it's respectable but I remember feeling like apocalyptic tired like like done and but when you when you when you do crack and I think like the through hikers they crack less you know like you just crack like you have that that fall by that floor which has been raised like when you crack you're like yeah but like come on like it's gonna be over in a couple hours like you can

1:23:06you can just keep the low locomotion going and if you can get some calories then it's gonna feel even easier and I got I think part of maybe my my special superpower in those races has to do with the through hikers because like some of that stuff is what wouldn't you have to really be tough it tough on yourself right because I know I know it can be quite delicate one of the one of the challenges sometimes you have when you're leading your race is the intensity of that feeling like I'm I'm leading this big race like you're doing the thing you wanted to do and that can be quite quite an intense feeling in its it's it's it's almost like a light which is extremely bright and you have to not blink like you have to just accept that the light is gonna be that bright and you have to work with it and you have to be very open to the intensity of that light and then the same moment when you lose the lead or you're falling back and all of that light becomes darkness and like really those those those subtle mental gymnastics you pull to deal with those

1:24:12parallel universes which are inevitably the same thing it has to do with is basic self-reliance it has to do with where you put yourself like how much you can really count on yourself to do the thing you said you're gonna do and you're in mind and like it's still a puzzle and there there's no like solution to it's just a it's a never-ending game and it's part of the challenge that was most attractive in in the thru hiking the discovery the unknown which I still do find you know especially when you're when the goals are are more tangible not just like can we get to Canada like can we win this big race you know yeah and like it's it's not the same thing but there's certainly some significant overlap well and I think listening to your recaps are on substacking stuff too you have this mindset that I think is crafted by repetition and I think maybe through like repetition correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like after UTMB this year like really great performance but then

1:25:15you're like yeah I just didn't feel anything but maybe I could have like house some gels and maybe that would have turned it around like you're already like I tried a bunch of things they didn't work but then your brain keeps going after that on like next time I could do this thing so you're just continuing to it's almost like a resupply or you run out of food or like cramping up or it's too hot or I ran out of water I got to have more capacity and that's like the rudimentary basic step on when we're 20 we learn those things and now you apply it to a race on well I couldn't solve it out there but I didn't try this so maybe next time this is the answer and I think that that's been pretty cool to hear just that style of thinking that is a lot less pervasive and I think ultra running in general on it's not always how could I be better or could I be better it's just how could I have solved that one problem that maybe would have unlocked being better and I think that's the through height that's how I think of it is trail versus ultra running it's not how could I be

1:26:19a few minutes faster versus how could I alleviate or solve this adversity which would then in fact will make me better kind of thing yeah I mean I'll always be like I think through hiker at heart like even if even if I do attain the summits that I desire in the ultra world like I hope to retain like that part of myself you know and like it really stems from these general cliches that you start of that sort of work when you're in the woods like yeah if I'm dogged and relentless I can do anything you know like it's kind of like really utopian vision stuff that you feel like so deep inside you when you're hiking that that like it can lead somewhere like maybe it can work that like this sort of like this this really optim this deep state of optimism that you I don't know if that happens you but like I had it a couple times I just felt so optimistic about stuff even if I do a real basis in reality to feel that way that's so optimistic and so yeah more

1:27:22through hikers more through hiker power out there to be good for the world yeah okay last thing so you through hiking into ultra running and then you eventually you're a coach too what was the path to and I mean obviously a good ultra runner but learning some of the the aspects of running and fitness in general how did you how did you educate yourself and become more than just someone who's good at exercising yeah I suppose my coaching is starting I've got quite a small roster at the moment I've just been with the I just had twins last year my time my training time has needed to increase and my family time has needed to increase my so my coaching time so now I have a quiet reduced athlete roster mostly working with athletes that I've been working with for a while that I really enjoy working with but I did I've done it for five years four years now um and uh the way that I approached running was was from a trial and air side of my my end but also

1:28:29from a student perspective so I just went about basically reading as much as I could about endurance training from the cross-country side of the realm from cross-country running marathon but also cross-country skiing and uh basically like just try to get a large library in my brain and start putting these into practice and trail running and then started just make practical observations what's working what's not working what is a good training system look like so with my athletes my training system it's definitely not the training that I do but it's the same training philosophies that becoming a good ultra runner is is about covering a lot of the disciplines in running not not focusing on just one side of the the equation or the other but looking about first with each person what are the proximate goals the long-term goals and like what are the what where is the low hanging fruit where is the weaknesses that you need to be addressed and then how can

1:29:32you fortify the strengths that are already existing it's like for me like you have to just break trail running up into all of the various disciplines and like try to put together the puzzle and like try to evaluate your scores on how you how you hike uphill how you run uphill how you move on the flats how you descend when it's technical how you do to send this how are you late in the race how do you be getting a race how's your nutrition and then just basically look at those variables and then kind of adjust them on a microscopic but a holistic dial as well uh and then just use basic training structures to achieve that you know progressive overload consistency and then you know basically just yeah just chip away at it and try to become a more complete runner yeah okay last question you ski a ton especially if you measure in vertical meters too and time out there how does that fit into training because we've been we've seen some of the best in the world the last decade incorporate a ton of skiing into their training how do you manage that and also does that mean you

1:30:38have to cut out like a lighter season or an offseason or how do you keep this level going you're around yeah I believe that like it's been fundamental in my evolution as an athlete is to have a running off season which the training volume makes you goes up substantially but the running mileage comes down substantially so I run like uh between 20 and 40 miles a week max during winter and uh but I ski you know anywhere from 15 to 30 hours a week just depending on conditions and stuff uh but what I basically do I treat the offseason as a perfect chance to just become non-specific right and then attack what's really important is the building up this side de-ev cultivating an aerobic base but more practically a work capacity and ability to do a lot of work and I think that really has a lot has a really strong effect on my resilience in races later

1:31:39in the year just like you know if your body's used to doing 10,000 feet of elevation gain on the ski like those are real but that's those are real elevation feet like and they're done with weight in altitude in tough conditions so it counts for a lot but then you don't take the parenting on the descent that you would if you'd run hiked up there so that's that's critical for me as I think running can be a traumatic sport as well and uh if you just do it all the time I think you can get really good for a while but then you just kind of flirting with injury I think and I've never been injured so I've also treated this as a way to stay on positive trajectory address some of the weaknesses that I felt because I find at the end of a chair running season my legs are battered man like they've been sore for months on end and stuff and like they just need a little break and a shift of gears but I I shift some of that that running pounding down but then I up like how much my body actually has to do so that like when I arrive in spring and I start upping the mileage

1:32:41running feels so damn easy like it's crazy like you just you don't have the heavy things on your feet you're not at altitude all the time you're not just going straight up the mountain all the time and so there's like there's a there's a mental and a physical and a physiological side which for me is proved like uneniable but there's also this cohesion with nature which I think is important as well because like it just makes sense for me to be skiing here I look at the snowy mountains all the time just like why would I be out there found in the pavement if like the trails are completely muddy and there's beautiful mountains with snow on it so there's uh there's an accordance with nature but then there's the whole training side which just seemed to work really good for me and then there's the progression because every year I get a little better and a little more hungry and a little more efficient like we do more and it's a way for me to say like okay like I'm coming to spring with money in the bank right like those meters those are money those are dollars in the bank account and that's that's stuff that stays with you those are long-term adaptations which can

1:33:43be useful to us to the year okay last one because I'm curious do you think in metric units now or so my preferred measurement style is meters for elevation gain but miles for this it's like I like to like that's my friend my friendlish you know like my my language words French English because my wife she we speak French English all the time just makes them all together and that's what I do with my units of measurement as well as I I love the mile I don't know what it is it's such a beautiful maybe beautiful is a bit hyperbolic but like it's a great it's a great unit like the kilometers a bit soft you know it's just the kilometers not that far mile is just it's a unit that makes more sense to me but the the meters is preferable because it's a little more it's like I said undersell over to over deliver right like feet it just gets crazy the numbers they go go too high they look fancy and like the meters are nice to tight okay yeah I like it

1:34:49I was like a very philosophical end to the conversation here thanks so much for joining yeah as a pleasure Jeff thanks